Faith and Culture

In this episode, Father Norm and Gino explore the surprising parallels between the timelines of Christianity and America, examining how faith, culture, power, and identity have shaped one another throughout history. They discuss how insecurity, fear, and our reluctance to tell the truth can deepen cultural divides, and why honest reflection is essential for healing and unity.

Have comments, questions, or want to suggest topics for discussion? Leave a comment or e-mail us at heartmatterspcast@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Hello everyone. Father Norm here with Gino. Probably many of you have been watching hopefully several of these episodes, maybe some new folks. Glad to be here with you. Gino and I have had a lot of conversations through the years, and now we're bringing them to you to overhear us and maybe to set us straight on some things. Gino. Hopefully.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Hi, I'm Gino. Let's just jump right into it. Last time we talked, we talked about history. We talked about telling the truth. We talked about how history is shaped. And specifically history around race and how those things have shaped the realities that we see today and some of even the movements and projects that have happened over the years and things like that. And towards the end of our conversation, we talked a little bit about how faith um connects to those very things. And so when you think about that, I guess when you think about the past and American history, and you think about all the things that we talked about in the last um session, and you think about the church's influence now and the church's influence then, like what what kind of things start to kind of form in your mind about those?

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Well for me, thinking way back to the uh late 1950s, early 60s, and of course 63, uh Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s March on Washington with so many people. But I grew up in a particular church then. I wasn't Catholic, I grew up in a local community church. It was all white, you know, but in a racially mixed area. And so I'm struck even back then, somewhat, a number of things were were coming out of race, partly out of King coming out of all of that. The uh the uh the marches, the sit-ins, the uh the trying to integrate schools, uh, a number of areas. And I didn't think about it at the time, but we never talked about that at all, ever. Even though we lived in a racially mixed area, with again an all-white congregation, so probably weren't even thinking about it or or speaking about it. And I go back to that time and say, wow, how did that happen? And then I know it can still happen today, not paying attention to real issues that maybe need to be spoken about from a faith perspective.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Yeah. Yeah, and I think that there is a history of that, you know, we talk about American history, and I think people sometimes forget that there's a church history that's running parallel to that. And so as these things are happening in society, there's also these things that are happening in the church. And one of the things that like uh is always stuck with me, uh, Dr. Tony Evans, he um said that you know the church is the agency by which um God has uh bestowed influence um to influence the rest of the world. Um, and even if the church doesn't function in its calling and in its purpose, it still doesn't lose its anointing to do so. And he says, so to look at or to to gauge the um state of society or to gauge the state of a place, you need to know, you need to not look no further than the church. And so the church is oftentimes the reflection, or the church usually reflects or it it influences the space around it. And so if the church is divided, usually the the place around it is divided, right? America is divided because the church is is divided. Um, you know, I think as Malcolm X had said, you know, the the most segregated hour uh in in America is high is is uh I think 10 o'clock or something. 10 o'clock or high noon on Sunday or something like that, right? Um and so, you know, oftentimes there's this parallel in which a a version of Christianity had a deep influence on American history, and American history has had a great influence on American Christianity. And so there's this that's an interesting dynamic to kind of kind of work through and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

For you, for any of us, um that whole talk, okay, American history, we talked before uh a couple years ago. I was in Washington, D.C. at the African American Cultural Center. So much there, uh three or four floors of videos and reels and pictures and stuff of all. And and and I felt like I was a little more aware, I even in college, I I consciously took courses that included black history, but there was so much stuff there I didn't know. Oh, yeah. And and and so, and I think I may have mentioned this last time too. It seems like uh uh not wanting to even bring that up. But but what struck me too when I was there is the role of the church, and even the role, and you may have some more to say on this, uh, the role of the white church and the black church. And uh and so often, you know, running parallel, uh caring about the Lord, wanting to bring the Lord, but but again, this issue of race or any kind of where there's differences, trying to see and value them as God given, He brought that together. I didn't hear that. I hear a lot more of it now, thankfully, but I didn't hear it back then.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Yeah, no, I and I mean you you mentioned Dr. King and the Civil Rights Movement, and a large part of that, you know, the majority of that was driven by um church and church leaders, right? And so there's there's that element, and then there's also another side of it to where you know I think about the word picnic, right? That word picnic actually is derived from um a they would pick a n-word and they would typically hang them, and they would hang them on typically would be a Sunday right after church. And so this interesting dynamic in where you worship a Christ who was lynched, and then right after you go and you find somebody and you lynch them, and and they would send postcards ahead of time letting people know that they were doing this. There's pictures of these uh droves of people with a person hanging in a tree, and uh and these people are around, and they would sell body parts of the of the person that was hung as souvenirs, right? And so I say all that to say there is a complex and mixed history of the church specifically in the Amer in America, and um there's a deep um there's a deep core woundedness that I think America has um in its original sin, which was the trans transatlantic slave trade, well even before the transatlantic slave trade, um what they did to the Native Americans um and and and the history of violence um is it it's it's very hard for one to say that those are Christian values, or though I don't think that they're the scriptures that I read support that type of thing, but for the for the for a version of what they were interpreting, that became the fuel in which they empowered their decisions. And and so there's that piece, but then there's also this rebellion piece of of the gospel that was preached. Um and then there's you know even another side of it where you know uh a movement where people were preaching about eva evangelism and winning souls, and and and there's all these like compartments of this gospel that like is is good and have good things, but if it's segregated and separated, it starts to lose its potency and it starts to fracture and and then it causes tension, and then the things that are actually supposed to be supporting one another become you know the thing the very things that create conflict. And and so you have all of that, and and I think that that's a uh a summed up way of what I'm what I'm trying to say is we have a complex history. Yeah. Um, both our American history and the American church history. Uh, and in the same way that we talked about it, I think last time, about telling the truth about that history. I think it's important that we tell that truth about American history. I mean about our American church history as well.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Yeah, no, no, I know that. And even uh I think I've reflected before where uh uh you know that that again, that church that I grew up with, it was all white in the black community, but never got spoken. In fact, I may have mentioned in a previous time, I probably did uh bring it up because it was such an impact on me when the Boy Scout troop had some, the black kids of the Boy Scout troop uh coming to uh uh the the all-white church uh because it was Scout Sunday, and the church sponsored a scout troop in that neighborhood, which included people of color and coming, and then how uh the reality was once some some of the folks, and and I go back and see it was in that time period better, but still a way to go. That we didn't know there were blacks, it would have been colored or whatever the language they used. I'll even use Negro, Negroes in the uh in the scout troop, we didn't know that until Scout Sunday, and so uh again, and I'm sure people were well-meaning. I get that, you know, talk about blind spots for self-awareness, so some well-meaning in their intentionality of, well, you know, we notice there's some Negroes in the troupe. You know, our congregation's all white with a lot of white kids. We think if we don't change that, a lot of our parishioners, who are white, aren't going to send their kids to the Boy Scout troop. You know, so something's gotta be done to change that. And I probably have mentioned here before that uh, yeah, so the the thing was in this state with me. And these this is a Christian church, this is the the Board of Trustees, all white. And again, I I get it, it was the 19, it was probably 1961, 62, even before King's March, but but it was saying, you know, we have to do something with the Negroes, and and again, that uh, you know, that it's a mixed bag. We want to be nice to them. After all, when you follow Jesus, you're gonna be nice. So we want to say a nice way to them, not a hateful way, not a hurting way, just a nice way to them. We really believe you'd be happier in an all-Negro church or yeah, church and Boy Scout troop in Ellot, which was we lived on North Hill and we all walked there. But again, in their mindset, twofold, one, saying, yeah, uh, we don't want to lose uh uh white par not wanting their kids, instead of questioning that, saying, yeah, that's a reality, and two, uh, wanting to do this with the Negroes in a polite, nice way, and even saying, in a nice way, well, hey, there's a troop over there uh that you should be.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

You'll be happier over there. Yeah, you will be happier over there, and so like, but and so one, I think if you flip that and you say, like, what would that sound like on the other end of that good intention, right? Of we're being good intention, but like what are we actually communicating to these people? You know, like you know the Crips, right? The gang, the infamous gang. You know why those why it was created or how it was created? It was created because it was created because they at the time when African-American people could start to get industrial jobs, they were making more money. They started making more money, they started being able to live in more affordable places. And so they were actually able to move into to predominantly white uh neighborhoods and things, as you start having these mixed neighborhoods and these places. Um, and like any family or any you know, good parent, you want your kids to be involved in extracurriculars. Well, they wanted their boys to be involved in um in the Boy Scouts, and that it was the same thing. Yeah, okay. Now that these boys wanted to go in these Boy Scouts, and they basically said, like, no, you can't be in our Boy Scouts. And so they started their own. And so Crips, I can't remember the actual acronym of what it means, but it's essentially it's community revitalization in public service or something like that. That's what it actually meant. And so these boys who were rejected from the uh, these boys who were rejected from the Boy Scouts basically said, we're gonna form our own our own Boy Scouts and we're gonna take care of our neighborhoods. And so they started to take care of their neighborhoods and things like that, and it was always good, it was actually good. They were providing meals and food and all these different types of things, and then when drugs and things were uh injected into the community, it warped and and and and you know evolved into something else. Um and that same sentiment is the very thing that why there was a black church in the first place. The black church did not exist because black people wanted to create their own thing and have their own space. It was because they were rejected from white churches, right? Um, white churches didn't feel um like black people, or they didn't feel comfortable with black people being in their congregations, and even you know, their their gatherings would be segregated even if they were allowed to, and they usually had to sit in the back or they had to sit in these things, and so even in the church setting, they were told that they were inferior, right? And so from a white perspective, it could be we're we're being well-meaning, like we don't want to disrupt the status quo, we don't want to disrupt our parishioners, we don't want to disrupt these things. But whether intentionally or unintentionally or whatever the motives are, you were constantly communicating to African Americans that you aren't qualified to be here and that you need to figure it out. Like we want to help you figure it out and be over there. William Seymour in the Azusa Street Revival, right? Um, that which was a essentially a Pentecostal almost movement, um, in which even though Wall Street uh or the New York Times had talked about all the miracles and all these things that were happening um at Azusa Street, and there were people who were brown and black and white, and people in wheelchairs lifting chairs and speaking in unknown tongues. And these are like quotes from the New York Times. That's not even like the church's history, that's the New York Times quoting these things. And there is his mentor, well, William Seymour was African-American, but his mentor was uh a white uh man, said that the same spirit that is is doing all this. Now back up, this gathering, because it's a mixed gathering and it's before it it's still segregated, it's still times of segregation, so it is an illegal gathering by the law. It's an illegal gathering. And his mentor says the spirit that is doing this can't be doing it the same in the white people than it is in the black people, and this needs to be broken up, and so they did break up, and from that movement, you get the Kojic Church, right? And then you get the Church of God, right? Kojit Church is primarily African American and black. The church of God is primarily white, right? And so we see those realities now, not understanding that there was a history before why these things exist. Um, and there was institutions created around those concepts, there were denominations created around those concepts, and it's interesting to me, you know, especially in a lot of charismatic um uh settings, that people always want to talk about revival. And one of the, if not the you know, biggest almost attempt, it feels like, of revival in America was stomped out by racism. Right? And so, like the very thing that we pray about, want to see in our country, want to do these other things, it's almost like if we don't deal with that original sin of of impartiality, uh partiality and and and hierarchy and all these things that have blended in with almost nationalism and and and like for a lot of people they can't tell the difference between where Christianity stops and where America begins and and so on, and and so like that lack of of discernment and that lack of ability to be able to tell the narrative and the story of like how we got here almost perpetuates our problem.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

So for me then, looking at that, obviously many more people, it's still a way to go, white people, black people, more self-aware. There's a growing greater sensitivity, there's a growing understanding. There's push-pull around the value of diversity, you know, from those who maybe would say uh hopefully it's a few, but it's maybe more than a few who, hey, we were white at the beginning, and that's what we should still be. The whole issue about immigration, especially immigration people of color, all of and and the churches still are in on Sunday morning segregated, even though a lot of folks, white, especially I looked at, more enlightened, more open, but still as segregated as ever. Why? With I mean, we we've integrated people comment about this in positive ways, and some get bothered by it, all the commercials and everything have more black people in them, and even black, white uh couples relating as a marriage and stuff. So there's more consciousness of that, but still, that in the church on Sunday morning hasn't got to that place. Most, even most, maybe a few, if I'd say progressive white churches uh would be doing more. But even there, yeah, the black, white coming together, that's still in a church, still rare. Why?

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Yeah, I think um a couple reasons. I think I think church as the institutions um perpetuate that division. Um but I also think that people typically don't want diversity for the right reasons. I heard Shane Claiborne, who I've I believe he quoted it from somebody else, but he was the last person I heard, so I'll just say it was his. But he said the people who fall in love with the idea of diversity ultimately destroy it. But people who love the people around them ultimately create it. Um, and I think people are more concerned with doing the right thing as opposed to just loving people and caring less about the institution and caring less about upholding, because even even going back to what you the comment about, you know, we we we know if these people come here um that this might be a threat to our other parishioners, and and we fear that we might lose them. And so out of fear, not out of love, but out of fear, we're going to do this to self-preserve what it is that we've established and we've built. And so like I think people are more um more in tune or or more or they desire more to um uphold the the the organization of church as opposed to help to invest in the organism that is the church. And I feel like that's the the ultimately the thing that keeps us divided because even if if the if the fuel Or the thing that is driving us to be connected in community is anything other than love, like it's not sustainable. Right? Like, if I don't genuinely have affection and care for you, and I'm just doing it out of a sacrificial obligation, like that's only good for so long.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

You know, it reminds me of that thing of that how does your faith following Jesus, if you're Christian, make an interior difference, not only your behavior, the way you look at the world, what you do and how and why you do it, you know, that uh uh that can make a difference. And I know that, for example, when we look at Jesus, uh he was inclusive, we've talked about this before too, probably of his own day, you know, even reaching out to the Samaritan woman and and how they they hated each other, but the uh the the peoples did, but but bringing people together and telling a story and saying, hey, let's connect, let's relate, let's get to know one another, and and the importance of that. But back to that, oh, that was what I was thinking of with with Jesus. Okay, he says two things, uh, more than two, but the big commandment love God, your whole house, soul, be being, strength, love your neighbor as yourself. So love God, love your neighbor. And and and I think uh the implications of what does it mean, who is your neighbor, and what does it mean to love your neighbor? And that thing of where I think people can see, well, those are commands, so yes, I will be obedient to Jesus in love, as opposed to I will be following Jesus who calls us to relationship, and then that relationship experience love, not just well, I'm loving you because there's a commandment, and that's what I'm supposed to do.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Yeah, and and and I think the second part of that says love your neighbor as yourself. And I think we we just usually put that second part as a tagline and not seeing those things together. In other words, like it's almost in in their context, it's assume that you love yourself. It's assume that you know yourself enough to where you actually value yourself, and and and because you value yourself that way, then you should love your neighbor in that same manner, right? To see them as people who are just as valuable as you, but maybe in a different way. The problem oftentimes when you peel back all the layers is people don't actually love themselves, and they don't love themselves because they don't actually know what's valuable about them, and so it makes them deeply insecure. And if I can't find security internally, I will find it externally. And so I'll find it in my skin, I'll find it in my clothes, I'll find it in my car, I'll find it in my house, I'll find it in my bank account, I'll find it in all these other different places uh, you know, that that make sense to me that tell or society or the world tells me that these things are the things that actually bring you value. And so we have a lot of people who are rich, who got money, who got cars, who got, you know, great skin, great, you know, physique or whatever, um, but are walking around insecure in the sense that like outside of things that are externally, like what are the things internally that actually make you valuable, that make you that make you good, right? And those those those qualities, whatever those qualities are, are typically qualities that God has given you of yourself, right? Or of himself. And so those those when you can see that those things are internally and God is bringing value uh to you internally, it makes me less um combative when you might address you know my skin or might address my whatever. Um so I I think to my point being, I think a large part of why people uh miss it or why people don't engage is a deep level of insecurity. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

We may have talked about this before too. I'm remembering uh watching a uh a video of a woman who interviewed a lot of the people who are part of what happened on January 6th disrupting in the Capitol. And uh over the next couple years, she would talk to those people and try to better understand them. But that's another point. I mean, like obviously, everybody, you know, so many were appalled at this. She said, I just wanted to better understand that maybe that can give us some insight. And so she videoed a lot of her interviews. And so many of the interviews, and it really struck her, and she explored it more, were particularly men, men who in their childhood possibly had this is overstating it, but some had an alcoholic father, a distant father, some had situations growing up where they were they had a very negative sense of self. It could have even come from a Christian distorted kind of percent, you know, you're you're sinful and who you are and what you do. And so she said that so many of those people, not to excuse it, but when you look at their background and how they saw themselves, love yourself, that she could see a lot of them didn't have that self-love. They were dragging some stuff through their childhood and then projecting it out in this disruption without even being self-aware that that's what was really going on.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Yeah, because right, the culture will culture is like a wave. And if you're not secure in the way that you are and you're not standing strong, you'll just go with whatever the current is. Especially if that current is feeling it, it feels like it's giving you value. There's a movie, oh shoot, I'm forgetting the name, but Taraji B. Henson, it's like Unlikely Friends or something, but it's I forgot what the name of it, but it they talk about like this it it's it was the uh the um they had to vote on whether they were gonna pass desegregating the schools. Right. And the guy who is like a grand dragon in the in the clan gets up and he's the final vote. And spoiler alert, he he votes actually with the African American folks that they should desegregate the schools. But before he does that, he gives this speech and he says, What you just said, he growing up, he didn't have his father, he didn't have that validation, he didn't have those things. And when but when he got of age and he got connected to the clan, they actually gave him a title, they gave him these, they gave him status, they gave him these things, and he rips up the card because he has this moment of clarity where he realizes that he is more than that, and his relationship with this this woman has actually trumped the thing that he's put his security in. And I feel like that's where we gotta get. Oh, yeah. We gotta get to a point where our relationship with people trumps like our the way that we have entrenched our security and our value into things that are external. Yeah, I know we gotta wrap up here.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

Yes, that was. Yeah, we go through it quick, don't we? And we don't know if you feel that way, but we do. But anyway, just that that that uh when we do develop, among other things, that we've talked about many things, that a healthy sense of self, a healthy, secure, beloved of God, child of God, even if some people around you haven't affirmed you, whether it's the church, whether it's some sort of community, that helps you see yourself, love yourself, and then obviously love yourself because God loves you. Can you then love God, love your neighbor coming from that healthy self-love that you know comes from a God who created you and loves you?

SPEAKER_00 30:02

So any comments you want to add to that? No, I I would say that I think the common misnomer is that when you do that, it's hard to love other people. But I think when you do that, it's actually the natural outgrowth of that is to love other people. When you feel free, the natural you know, outgrowth of that is you want other people to feel free too, and so you love them in a way that they feel like they should be loved or that the way that they need to be loved. And so, yeah, I would just say that. Like, I think it's not hard to love people when you truly can love yourself, and sometimes love doesn't look like oh, I'm just gonna give you roses or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

Sometimes love is distant, sometimes love is you know, all those things, but yeah, well, folks, please know I'm adding this, I don't mean this at all, but I don't want to get postcards. I don't do postcards anymore. See how old I am? Okay, because I was gonna say, Gino, since I came to self, healthy self-love, I finally came to like you.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

I'm glad this was on camera. This is how he treats me off camera. Yeah, yeah. Everybody thinks, oh, he's nice, he's father. This is how he treats me. No, but we appreciate you. Thanks for being with us.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Thank you for responding.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

God bless us all. Yeah, and we'll see you next time. Peace.