E19 Megan Part 2

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Hey Megan. Hi. How are you? Good. How are you doing? Good. It's nice to see you again. I know it's nice to see you too.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Thanks. So I know we had talked a little bit about maybe doing a part two. There was a lot of stuff we probably didn't get to the first time. What do you think? Anything you want to start with?

SPEAKER_03 0:33

Oh gosh. I don't know. I mean, because I feel like, you know, I know we covered a lot, but then when I think about it, it's like we can go deeper into we could probably have hours and hours of conversation about this.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

It's a really complex topic for sure.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

It is. You know, and I think a lot of people don't like to talk about the ugly that comes with being a fire spouse. And I mean, the ugly could be, you know, you put on a fake face of whether it be someone's cheating in the relationship or you're just really you're struggling mentally, your partner's struggling mentally, the kids. And I I'm kind of at the point where I don't want to be quiet about anybody's struggles because I know I'm not the only one who's struggling, and I know there's other people that are struggling, and it's kind of like if someone doesn't start talking about it, nobody will.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Right.

unknown 1:39

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

And it's just one of those things where it's like, why are we pretending that none of this is going on?

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:48

Why do we pretend that, oh, I'm a fire life, everything is absolutely peachy perfect, all butterflies and rainbows, you know, everything is absolutely fabulous. And it sure, sometimes it is, but it's not.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Yeah. I mean, I think it's very brave of you to start the conversation and to want to talk about it because obviously there could be it's a sensitive topic, right? And not everybody wants to open up like that for other people to know about it. But also people are probably afraid to talk about it. You know, afraid of the consequences on your relationship or the consequences with your friends. And so I think it's really brave of you to want to do it.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

Yeah, it's it's one of those things where you know nobody ever wants to validate the stereotypes of you know, a certain job type, but let's just face it, that's just sometimes that's that is the reality of things. Yeah, so it's you know, it's it's like, you know what, hey, let's just let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Yeah. Sounds like you've been on the receiving end of that.

SPEAKER_03 3:02

Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, I'm not everyone does, you know, you try to paint this picture perfect image on the outside, but you know, sometimes at home it's things may not be so perfect, or they weren't maybe they're good now, but maybe they weren't always good, you know, and being around, you know, being with my husband, and then being around just some other fire service guys, you know, you're kind of like, wait a minute, you have a wife, or that you had a girlfriend. Why are you, you know, in another town not being faithful when you should be? Yeah. You know, and it's kind of you know, it's hard to speak up because one, if I don't know the person, I'm not gonna say anything because you you never know who you're talking to. So you kind of just mind your business and keep your mouth shut and hope that you don't ever see the girlfriend or the wife, because when I say I the whole girls girl thing, I uh if I know, you're gonna know.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

There's a culture in the fire service that even if your colleagues know, they don't tell. Yeah. Even though they know the families and they know the spouses and everything, which is, I mean, it's really difficult.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

Oh, yeah. Especially when you know they they're so nice to your face, and then come to find out, you know, they were in on this whole big secret, and you just feel like you got stabbed in the back by not only your partner, not only by your from your husband, but from one, two, three, four, you know, depending on, you know, however many are around, however many new, you know, that's an additional in addition to your spouse, you know, let's just even say two, two other people stabbed you in the back.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Right.

SPEAKER_03 4:57

Because they actually like everything was fine.

unknown 4:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

Or they covered up for that. And it's really sad. You know, it's it's heartbreaking. Yeah, because I have been in that situation, you know, way back when I first, when my husband and I we first first started dating, and it was one of those, like, you know, they're all on dating sites and you know, they're gone out of county for three weeks at a time, you know, and they get they just get bored, I guess, or you know, they need some other excitement, like the fire isn't enough for them, so they need to, you know, have conversations with other women, and it's it's heartbreaking. I could say, you know, not that he ever met up with anybody, but you know, kind of even just the conversations, that's still, I mean, some people, oh well, nothing physical happened, that's not cheating, and that's fine. That's that's good for you, you know. Not everybody's the same. You know, for some people, cheating is just it starts with a conversation, and that's enough to end a relationship right there for some people.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Yeah, it's the emotional piece that is equally important.

SPEAKER_03 6:13

Yeah, they're supposed to be your safe space, and they're supposed to be, you know, that's supposed to be your person right there, and then they go and they stab you in the back.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

And yeah, did it go on for a long time?

SPEAKER_03 6:27

A little while. Sometimes I'm a little embarrassed to admit how long it really went on. I will say it went on longer than it should have. But it was one of those. I wish I kind of if I would have put my foot down a lot sooner, it would have ended sooner. But I would believe that okay, it's not gonna happen again. Oh, it's not gonna happen again. Oh, nothing can happen, it's just a conversation. And you know, sometimes you I don't want to say you're blinded by love, or sometimes it's just stupidity, but I don't know if it's stupidity, it's maybe you might want to call it hope, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Hope that it's gonna be different or that it's gonna be good, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:15

And it's just, you know, you do you hold on to that hope of I'm well, I'm not gonna do it again. Oh, I'm gonna change. And you hope and hope and hope, you hope and pray, and you're like, oh, okay. You know, and finally I was like, I'm not enough. You want to do this? Fine, bye. Go, go have your fun. Had zero contact. I didn't have any contact, I had did not respond for like two or three days. And you know, I'm not saying this works in every situation, but for him, it was the wake up call of like, oh, shit, like I'm gonna lose her. You know, and I will say I'm thankful it was in the beginning of our relationship to where it was we were able to repair things, you know, at least in you know, in our case. And I get not everybody's the same, you know. But some people like would argue be like, oh, well, if it was that early in your relationship, it would have been much easier to just pack your bags and you know, say goodbye, cut your ties. But I don't know, it was one of those. I kind of just I held on, I did, I held on to that hope, and things are things are great, you know, things turned out great.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Are you happy that you did?

SPEAKER_03 8:32

Yes, definitely. I would say it definitely, it wasn't easy, of course it wasn't easy, you know, and it took a lot of I held resentment, even though I said I was over it, I held resentment for a few years. And it's one of those things where it was kind of like, okay, I'm choosing to be with this person, I cannot continue to hold the past and hold a grudge against the past. I don't have to necessarily forget what happened. But if I am going to forgive and be with him, then I need to fully commit on the forgiving part. You can't just partially forgive. It definitely would have you, you know, you don't have to again, you don't have to forget it, but forgiving completely is the only way to move on truly and fully.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

How long had you been together when this happened?

SPEAKER_03 9:34

Um it actually kind of started it started like right away. It started early on, and it probably continued for about the first few months of the relationship. Let's even let's even just call it a year, just to give a little extra, but maybe like for the first year, you know, what and it wasn't continuous, you know, it'd be something small here and something small there, and it's like okay. Like, and I will say, you know, I I guess for me it's like I'm thankful nothing physical like that had gone on, but even just the emotional toll it can take on somebody, you're just you're supposed I'm supposed to be trusting you with you know with my heart, and here you are seeking validation from somebody else who you really who you say you have no intentions talking to again. And you know, for me that that was the case, but it's it's still hard. Yeah, you know, it's still really hard.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Was it one person or multiple people?

SPEAKER_03 10:43

There's multiple people.

unknown 10:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:46

Unfortunately. And everybody knew, everybody knew what the firehouse? There were a couple. He was really good at keeping it quiet, except for the couple of other guys that were into the same thing, or the single guys that even to this day want nothing to do with the relationship. So, you know, and when I did go and visit, it was one of those like you could I knew something was up before I really knew something was going on. Just by the way, a couple of the guys just oh hey, you know, how how are you? We haven't seen you in a while. And I'm like, Yeah, I don't come to this station because we've only been together for you know, less at this, you know, at this point, less than a year. I'm not, you know, that's to me that wasn't a boundary I wanted to go to. Or, you know, like I had met them out, you know, if we went out, they went out outside of work. You know, I had met a few of them, or you know, FaceTime, you know, they were always in the call, like, oh hey, how you doing? How you you know, so I was like, I thought you guys had my back, but I guess not. Did you ever say anything to any of them? Um, no, you know, for me, that's something that my husband had to handle because again, for me, it's those are his co-workers. And I think in this type of job, any job really, but this job in particular, I feel like you have to be even more careful with what is said, especially as a wife, or even you know, or you know, long-term partner, spouse, whatever, whatever. I think you it's it's harder to say something. I didn't want to be seen as too emotional or too disrespectful, especially if you know somebody ended up promoting higher up, and it's like, oh, okay, well, now I still have to deal with you for the next 40 years of my life, and now you're you know, you're a captain now or battalion.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Do you think you would have been able to move on in a healthier or better way had you said something to them?

SPEAKER_03 13:14

Me in the way that I work, yes. But I had to have those conversations to those people with my husband. It was that was the way I got it out because I couldn't talk to them, even though I wanted to. Two two of the guys I did get an apology from.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

A couple a few years later, but better late than never.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Yeah, that must have been an awkward conversation. Like, what did they just come up to and be like, by the way?

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Basically, my bad. Yeah, it was that's basically how it was, you know. It's like, hey, you know, sorry about when this happened. It's like, thanks, you know, and it was kind of and like one of them was you know, I was kind of like, yeah, I could have said something that day. You know, but it's it is what it is, you know. I mean, I shouldn't say it like that, but it's it's something I moved on from and it is kind of hard to talk about, you know, and it's it's a little it is awkward to talk about. You know, because it's but sometimes that's just the reality of, you know, not and not every and not everyone in the fire service is you know is a cheater, but it kind of happens a lot more than people like to admit, you know, whether it be one time, whether it be, you know, whether it be full-blown physical or whether it just be, you know, a short conversation of a couple hours emotionally with somebody, that's still again, depending on the person is who the person is, that's that's still cheating, you know. And sometimes I will say, like, sometimes these guys get such big egos because of their job. They'll be like, oh, I'm a I'm a hero, I save everybody's life. It's like, well, yeah, but not when you have that mentality.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Yeah. I mean, they are heroes, right? But that doesn't change your relationship. That should have no impact on your marriage or your relationship with the other person. That's a separate part of life.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

Yeah, and it's you can't when you there's just the still the few that like to use that as their what's the word I'm looking for, just their validation in what they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Do you still know of a lot of people who are doing that right now? A lot of guys who are cheating?

SPEAKER_03 15:51

I will say I haven't I don't hear about it only because I know that you know, my husband, he had separated himself from the guys who were doing that. And the ones that I do know now, the majority of them are married long term, happily, like I mean extremely happily. Like you'll hear them just talk about their wives, you know, like non-stop, you know, and you can tell like there's a there's a difference between the ones who who rant and rave emotionally and lovingly about their wives versus the ones who you know are married but never ever mention their wives.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Hmm that's interesting. Do you think your husband would tell you if he knew somebody was cheating? He would.

SPEAKER_03 16:47

I think he would. I think he would. Only because after having the conversation conversations with him, it kind of made him realize that one that it is wrong, you know, but two that it's kind of it's not as cool, I guess. That's the only way I can try to say it's not as cool as some people try to make it out to be. And you know, and uh, you know, more uh as you know, we are getting older, you know, I he doesn't really conversate unless it's work with the younger guys. And I think you know, maybe if he did, he would maybe hear more. But now he's he just he doesn't involve himself in too much home life unless he knows that they're in a long-term committed relationship.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Do you think really that you would tell a spouse if you knew her partner was cheating on her?

SPEAKER_03 17:58

If I knew her and I if I had if I met her at least once and had a conversation with her, I know it would be hard to, you know, you hear from this random woman, like, oh hey, just an FII, your husband's cheating on you, or your boyfriend's cheating on you. Most they're like, okay, well, where's your proof? But then you don't want to cause conflict at work between anybody. But it would have for me, as much as much as a girl's girl that I am, work-wise, I would I would have to know the girl or get her at least once and had a conversation with her. But I know, you know, feeling guilty of like, man, I wish like I wish I could tell you. I wish I knew how to tell you without you know causing workplace drama. And I think that's where a lot of the I'm gonna say I'm even just gonna go here and say bro code of not saying anything is they don't want the workplace drama.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Yeah. But I mean, you could argue that like you wouldn't be the one causing the work workplace drama, it would be them by cheating.

SPEAKER_03 19:15

Yeah. It's I it I think so. I think for me too, it's you know, I I've seen and I think it's because I've seen the way some women can get so defensive when they know that their husband is cheating and they blame it on everybody around, or even like the other woman. Let's just say, you know, and put in the situation, the woman has no idea that he's married, you know. It's she's you know, some most some are will blame the woman before they blame their husband, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:02

But it's clearly the husband's fault. How did it come up with you and your husband? How did you find out? Like, how did how did it all happen?

SPEAKER_03 20:15

Notification popped up on his phone, and I was like, who's that? Just had a feeling, like you know, you kind of just knew something was off. I don't know. I'm a really good vibe person, I'm really good at picking up on people's vibes, and it was kind of like, hey, something's something's not right, you know, and again notification popped up, pup, popped up on his phone. I was like, who's that? And then it was like the guilty look of nothing, no one, work, yeah, okay. How long were you suspicious? Honestly, looking back, you know, it was I probably knew longer than what I really want to admit. You know, it was probably one of those, but you know, to me at the same time, my defense was well, this is a new relationship. You know, I was coming out of a previous marriage that I got married young and just you know getting back into the dating life and you know being in an actual, like a real relationship. It was everything was new to me. So I kind of just played it off as nervousness of you know, being in a relationship. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

How did you get through it? I mean that's huge.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

Lots and lots of Letting myself be angry and a lot of I'd be lying if I said I didn't hold it over his head for a while because I did, I was still angry, I went to therapy, and I love my therapist, she's been with me for years. I had to go to therapy, and that was where I was able to fully process it because I was embarrassed to tell family, I was embarrassed to tell friends, I told one friend, you know, and this friend she never turned on me, you know, and always kept it to herself, never told well it's her husband now, but at the time boyfriend. But it was it was embarrassing to try to talk to somebody who knew me and you know personally. So my therapist got it all. And you know, I we had yeah, yeah, therapy, lots and lots of therapy, and again, like I did. I held it over his head for a while, and it kind of for me, like that was healing for me, that was part of the healing process. Definitely like whole, and it's kind of felt guilty when I held it over his head, but it was it was definitely a topic of conversation that I would throw in his face, and then I realized, okay, that was when I realized if I need to, yes, I've forgiven him, but if I need to fully forgive him, and and if I'm going to be able to be happy in this relationship, I need to fully forgive absolutely everything. And it, you know, it's still an uncomfortable conversation seven, eight years later, you know. But that's just I'll kind of joke with people that are close, like, well, that's just my story. That's part of our story. And those who know me, they know like I do have a really dark sense of humor. So jokes like that, they know it's kind of oh yeah, that bothers her a little bit, but yeah, you know how can it not? Of course it bothers you. Yeah, it's it's definitely a big sense of betrayal for sure. But I mean, if you you know, again, everyone's different. I and I like to try to think about everybody else too, like, but you know, if you can't forgive it fully, then what are you doing? You just and you know, and to build that trust back, you have to give them the opportunity to be trusted again. As much as like your trust is broken and as hard it is to trust that person ever again. If you keep them on a leash, you're more than likely gonna drive them to go and do it again. So it's and building that trust, it was so hard. So hard.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Do you feel like you have that trust again, like a hundred percent, or do you still doubt?

SPEAKER_03 25:25

Well, I would like to say I have a full 100% trust, but I do find myself having moments of not necessarily not trusting him. It's kind of like a weird way to explain it. But I don't ever think he would, I don't think he would ever do that again, ever. But I do have these moments of where it's like, ugh, like what would that situation be like? And I don't know if you've seen the whole trend of these other women trying to, you know, they're showing up at firehouses saying they want to tour in the middle of the night and they want to bake cookies and they want to lie in their beds, they want to see the barracks, they want, you know, they want to wear their turnouts, they want to, they want to sit in the engine, and it's becoming this huge, huge thing. Yeah, it's yes, it's one of those, like, oh are you serious? It's kind of a you know, call me bitter, call me jealous, call me whatever you want, but it's one of those, it's like as a woman, don't be disrespectful. You know, I mean, sure, you I don't know, it's weird. It's one of those, like again, dumb trends that I'm seeing more and more like pop up on my page on Instagram, and I'm like, ugh, why?

SPEAKER_02 26:54

So women are going to firehouses and recording themselves doing this? Yes. To what end? Like if if you're putting putting it on social media, what are you getting out of it?

SPEAKER_03 27:06

Yeah, I I don't no idea. I don't know. I don't know if it, you know, it's a lot of the again. I've seen so many different videos, and some of them are looking for a firefighter for a husband, or come with me to try to meet the love of my life, or come with me to, you know, come with us to take cookies to a firehouse at 10 o'clock at night. Does that ever work? I don't know. I'm like I mean, it can't. You know, I would like to think that it it that I hope not, you know. And I saw there was one in particular where one of the girls was on the beds, and that video I just had like so gross.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

I don't even think people recognize how disgusting those beds are. Ew, I would never like sit on one of them.

SPEAKER_03 27:55

Yeah, no, and I just I decided that was the one I started to look through the comments and the amount of defense, I guess that the ones who made the video they got. They're like, oh, it's just bitter firewives knowing that they're gonna get cheated on, or that you know, that they would love to have somebody better, or it's I wish, you know, I wish I would have screenshotted some of the comments because it was one of those, are you kidding me? Like you're really gonna validate this is why, or you're you're bitter because you know your your husband is cheating on you, or this is why cheating rates are so high. And it's like, yeah, because they'd run, you know, a lot of it is the the defense if they want somebody younger, they want somebody who's like this, they want somebody who's willing to go to the firehouse. And it's like, do you realize half the time, depending on your department, half of the time we're not even allowed to go there? Yeah, but we're only allowed certain visiting hours, and here you are because you're part of the public. You're wanting to say you get to go and and see these see firemen because you want to bring them cookies. Like, that's it's insane. It's insane is wow.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

I have not I have not heard of that. To be fair, I'm not I'm not huge on social media, so maybe that's why, but I had not heard of that. Yeah, that's like devastating that people do that.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

It really is because you know I I have those moments where I'm like, wow, you know, and even if it's not you know my husband's station, it's all you know, other stations that I've seen, it's like wow, you're getting to go to the station when there's probably a wife at home who has not seen her husband in two weeks.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Right.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

So it's it's one of those like, oh, like, are you kidding me? Like, here we go, let's feed in more to this whole fire spouses, you know, the fire service are cheaters, and yeah, let's validate that some more.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

Yeah, that's pretty horrible.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

It is, it's not fun to see. Do you ever talk to your husband about it now?

SPEAKER_02 30:10

No, no, does he know you're talking to me about it?

SPEAKER_03 30:16

Actually, he does. I kind of told him, and I kind of got that look of not necessarily shame, but he was like, Well, he goes, you know, he goes, somebody's gotta speak the truth sometimes, you know. And for him, it was it kind of made me want to cry. It kind of makes me want to cry, like saying it now, too. I think, you know, for him it was kind of like that realization. And even to this day, like even though we don't we don't ever bring it up. I mean, hardly ever does it ever come up, but a lot of it comes up from him of you know, I wish I wouldn't have done that to you. Or, you know, I regret, you know, doing that to you. So it's kind of like, well, he goes, someone's gonna say it, and he goes, I figured you'd probably be the one to start the conversation. I was like, hey, it's you know, I said where people, you know, other spouses need to know that they're not alone in the situation, you know, and it's okay to admit that these things have happened, you know.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

And it's okay to say that I forgave him, right?

SPEAKER_03 31:29

Yeah, you know, there's there isn't anything wrong with it. Like I it doesn't matter, like that's that's your choice, that's not anybody else's choice, but but my own or your own.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

But but not even just that, this whole concept of like shame for having been cheated on. You're not the one who did it.

SPEAKER_03 31:48

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

The people who did it should be ashamed, and it sounds like your husband regrets it. Yeah, you know, so I agree with you. I think of course it's brave because people do feel that way, but they shouldn't. And maybe talking about it would make it so that this whole cheating thing is not such a popular thing in the fire service.

SPEAKER_03 32:10

It would be nice, you know. You know, for anybody involved.

SPEAKER_02 32:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:17

Let the stereotypes go away.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Is that something that had happened to you before your husband?

SPEAKER_03 32:24

Cheating? Mm-hmm. No, I got married young. I got pregnant at the end of my senior year of high school, and I wasn't even with I wasn't with him for you know very long before I got pregnant. And it was, you know, when you're when you're young, you think you know everything, you know. I was newly 18, so I was I was an adult. I knew everything. I I wasn't a kid anymore. I was 18, I was an adult. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:59

I was raised, I wouldn't say in a strict home of you marry who you have a family with, but it was something that was still like instilled to me, like where, okay, if you're having, you know, this is gonna be somebody that you're having babies with, this is who you who you marry. You know, and I went to this whole argument with my parents, and then all of a sudden it was like, well, you know, you don't have to marry somebody, and I'm like, well, you well, what do I do? I'm pregnant, I'm 18, I'm about to graduate high school, I have these whole, you know, whole this everything just got thrown on to me at once.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Right.

SPEAKER_03 33:38

And he, you know, that was really my only relationship for a long time. And I dated after I got divorced, after the separation ended the divorce. I dated, but I never committed myself to a relationship. I was strictly like, hey, you know, I'm I just I just got out of, you know, a marriage. I have two kids. I'm I don't want a relationship right now because I lost my youth. I lost my youth. And so my husband was actually the first person I was in a relationship with after my divorce.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Just so difficult to go into that and then have that happen to you. Yeah, yeah, makes you really lose your faith for a minute.

SPEAKER_03 34:32

It did. Oh, it it definitely did. It was one of those, like, oh, okay, this this is what life is gonna be like. Then, you know, I remember you were telling them I was like, this is what dating is supposed to be like, this is what a relationship is supposed to be like. I don't want this, like I'll be single for the rest of my life, yeah. But again, that was me being a little dramatic. And I don't think so. I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

But I am how long do you feel like it took you to to get to the point where you could put it behind you?

SPEAKER_03 35:06

Until it was fully behind me. It took me about a year, maybe a year and a half, until I was completely not triggered by it anymore. You know, and that's a long time, especially in a new relationship. You know, that that's the beginning stages, you know, it kind of it kind of feels like an eternity. It feels like it flies by, but it also feels like an eternity.

unknown 35:31

Right.

SPEAKER_03 35:31

I don't know. At least like for me, it's like, you know, you're you're learning so much in such a short amount of time about somebody. And you know, the first couple years really you don't know the person. Right. And so it took about a year, year and a half, until I was no longer triggered by the cheating. So even sometimes like I'll bring it up as a joke, it's like, oh, you can cheat on me, you know, and it's probably again dark humor, you know, that's my the way I cope about it. And I've I've that's only been I've only said it a couple of times because I learned not to say it because it because it gets it. I learned it, yes, it I learned that it it hurts him for me to say that, yeah. Um, you know, I'm like, well, you hurt me, so right, right, but at at some point it's time to stop hurting each other, yeah, right, yeah, and so it's something, you know, something I don't say anymore. But I will say that was a long year, year and a half of of healing. You know, I I had moments where I was like, oh yeah, I'm over it, I'm fine, I'm fine, you know, and something I would say something or hear about someone or you know, whoever's cheating on whoever, and then it would reopen those old wounds for me until I realized that, you know, and it was my therapist, she's like, Well, you have you have two options you can forgive and walk away, or you can forgive and continue to forget to forgive. She goes, not for not don't forget, but you have to forgive him, not just the situation, right? And that was kind of my the reality of realizing there's a there are different levels of forgiveness when it comes to cheating. You think you're over it, but you have to fully commit to being over it, or else you won't be.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really hard. Do you feel like it has affected your kids in any way?

SPEAKER_03 37:41

They don't know.

unknown 37:42

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 37:43

So my boys, they were around. They did question why in the beginning stages of my healing process, I did limit the amount of time he spent with them. You know, so for me it was easy to say, oh, he's he's at work because they knew his job took him away. And they were younger at the time, they were much younger at the time. So it was easy to say he was at work, you know. To this day, they don't know. And then we didn't have our our kids together yet, our two. So, you know, it was and I don't think I wouldn't ever, I don't know. I know some couples tell their kids about infidelity, but I don't I mean to each their own, but I don't think I could I don't think I would want to let them know.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

I'm not sure I would either, I guess if I were in that position. I mean it would just impact their relationship with their dad.

SPEAKER_03 38:52

Yeah. So it's one of those I'm like, oh, they don't they don't need to know about it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

Right, because it's not about them, right? It's between them two. Yeah, I never really thought about it, but I can I think I can safely assume you've never cheated. No. Okay. Do you think he would have forgiven you if you had?

SPEAKER_03 39:13

I think he would. And I think he would have because in a conversation, you know, it it was a lot of I don't deserve you, I don't deserve your forgiveness. Uh, you know, if you know, if you were to go out, and he was speaking out of emotion too, but it was like, you know, if you would go out and you know, do the same to me, then you know, I I would deserve it. And I was like, well, I could go and do the same thing, but what's that gonna do? Nothing. It's not exactly. You know. Yeah. Do you think about it a lot? I don't. I I have moments where it'll come up, like again, with seeing the videos on social media, or if it comes up in, you know, if I hear, you know, someone I know going through with their, you know, being cheated on or anything, I think about it. And it's hard to because me, I'm the type of person that if somebody I know is going through a situation, that's when I'll kind of open up and say, hey, this is my story.

SPEAKER_04 40:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 40:34

I'm very, you know, not in the sense of, hey, this is mine, let me try to one up you in the story. It's I mine more, I'm the hey, I want you. I I think because in this whole thing of opening up about the cheating or you know, anything about this is I I personally like to know that I'm not the only one. So if I can help somebody that I know, or maybe even somebody I don't know, somebody with somebody random. If I'm sitting at the bar having a conversation with some girl who just got dumped by her boyfriend, I like to have the conversations with somebody to let them know that they aren't alone.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:15

Because it's it is nice to feel that you are not alone. And to me, like that's like that's I think that's like my life's motto is you know, like you're not alone. You know, there's always somebody out there that can relate with you. And sometimes you just have to, and sometimes talking to that person kind of helps heal you in a way, helps heal that little bit of grief or you know, whatever's going on.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Yeah. I mean, being open to talk about this is a huge thing.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

Right. Both for for firewives, but just in general. You're talking about anybody who's been through it, you share that about yourself. And I think that's it's generous. I don't even know what other word to use. It's generous of you to share that with people so that they recognize that it happens. Right. And these things happen, and whatever you choose to do about it is okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:15

Yeah. And you know, whether you forget them or you don't forget them, you know, it's everybody, it's that that's okay, you know, but it's a lot of, you know, you kind of hear little bits and pieces of, oh, I was cheated on, or I was, you know, early in his career, I was cheated on. It's like, yeah, that seems to be a pattern, but and it's okay to, I don't want to say it's okay to quote unquote normalize it, because that's kind of what we've done as this as a society, like we've kind of normalized the cheating, the stereotype. But again, kind of saying that it's okay to normalize it for yourself if you choose to forgive, if it happened to you and you choose to forgive it, you know, like don't hold it against yourself, yes. You know, you and it yeah, it's okay to forgive, and it's okay to walk, it's okay to forgive and walk away. It's okay to forgive and stay. You know, everyone is is different, but being able to talk about what goes on, or you know, being able to talk about the ugly side of being a fire spouse should be normalized a lot more. You know, like we already have to stay strong at home, taking care of the kids, taking care of the house. You know, whether you're a stay at home mom or you work full time, part time, whatever, or stay at home wife, you know, whatever, whatever you are going to school to better your career, you know, we hold we hold it down at home. And we're already. Doing a lot. So there's we need to be able to say, like, hey, like, yeah, I'm holding everything down at home, but also like I'm not okay because of you know, X, Y, and Z is going on, or it's okay to talk about infidelity. It's okay to talk about mental health issues. It's okay to talk about how the kids are quite literally losing their minds because they miss dad. It's okay to talk about those things. You see these, you know, other women who you know what sometimes I think these women do have picture perfect lives, and good for you, but my life is not picture perfect, it's full of chaos, as you can hear, you know, and I think it needs that's I'm talking about now. Here I go again about like normalizing things. Like that's what needs to be normalized, is the chaos. Like, if you if I had a Goat Pro and filmed every day of my life, I everyone would be so entertained.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

Do you really think anyone actually has a picture perfect life?

SPEAKER_03 45:11

I'm gonna say no, but I will say maybe there are the some that in the rare cases that do have that picture perfect life, you know? And okay, maybe not picture perfect, but you know, everyone's everyone's chaos and everyone's life does look different.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:30

And I guess I'm at the point where I'm like, let's normalize the mom who works full-time and has to come home and take care of four kids at home. And let's normalize that chaos versus you know, the mom that mom that has everything put together. Like, cool, good for you that you can get off of work and then come home and cook a five-course meal for your kids and then get everybody to bed on time. Good for you, because like what are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 46:04

Yeah, I've never met a person who can do that. That's I think you know, you you have to prioritize some parts of life. And if your priority is to get your kids to bed on time, then other things have to wait. So the house is probably a mess. Or if you prioritize the house being neat, then you probably don't have time to have fun, or whatever the case is. Like some things gotta give, it's not possible.

SPEAKER_03 46:28

Yeah, yeah, I think you're right about that.

SPEAKER_02 46:31

It's just not possible. I don't think anybody like there are 24 hours in a day, and theoretically, eight of them are for sleeping. Oh, yeah, life is just full of chaos.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:49

What else do you think is part of this ugly side?

SPEAKER_03 46:55

Oh goodness, the mental health. That is something I will stand up and say is like I will scream it from mountaintop, like get the help you need. You know, they see they run some of these calls that are so intense, you know, and yes, that's part of the job. Okay. The well, you this is the job, this is what you're getting into. It's like, well, yeah, but you know, seeing, you know, I don't want not that I want to make it dark, but seeing a deceased child is I don't think ever gets any easier for them. You know, and it just it numbs them.

unknown 47:37

Right.

SPEAKER_03 47:38

You know, they they try to say, Oh, it's just it's part of the job, it's part of the job. Like that's always the defense, it's all part of the job. And it's like, well, yeah, it's part of the job, but now you aren't the same person as you were before. Now you're distant and cold, and I think it's it's just it's hard. And I know they're supposed to be, you know, manly, you know, a man, manly man or you know, manly men, and you know, deal again, deal with it because it's part of the job. And it's it's okay to get the help that you need, it's okay to talk to somebody about it. You know, it's you can't hold things inside of you. And even yet, you can talk about it, you know, with your coworkers, you know, they run the same, you know, they ran the same call as you. So it's a yeah, you can talk about it with them, but are you having like a true productive conversation about it? Or are you saying, yeah, this sucks, didn't want to see that, time to go on to the next call, you know, and I feel like that's what and on shift, that is completely fine to do because you can't, you know, they can't sit there and dwell on an unfortunate situation, you know, because they have to be ready for the next call. They have to keep their head on a swivel, they can't sit there and be upset about something while at work, because then that'll put their lives in danger.

unknown 49:21

Right.

SPEAKER_03 49:22

But then when they get home, you know, they they have to turn that switch off and they have to come home and be husband or be dad or you know, do come be whatever needs they need to be at home. And I feel like sometimes us as wives, like we need to push them more, or spouses, depending on if you get husbands on here. As a spouse, you need to push them to get the therapy and the help that they need, even if you know, even if they aren't and it shouldn't let me back up, not even just for a single call, you know, put them on okay, fine. Go to therapy once a month. Get have some sort of other outlet beside your coworkers and beside your family. Have another, have an outside source that can help you work through these things. And if if you really don't want to talk to, you know, you don't want to take the time to find some other therapist, fine, find one that's provided through work.

SPEAKER_02 50:23

Yeah. Have you been able to convince your husband to do that?

SPEAKER_03 50:27

Not yet, but it is something that I have actively been working on more recently just because of like stressors at work and like you, I love you, and I love being your therapist, but also I stopped taking my psychology classes for a reason you need to go talk to another therapist, and it's you can't be therapist to a family member or to a close friend. You can be an unofficial therapist, you could be their little their their source to vent to, but you cannot play therapist to somebody you're close with because your judgment gets clouded, and that's just something that's hard to do. So I I'm trying to get him to go, and with that, I'm hoping he'll kind of start telling his coworkers like, hey, I've been going to therapy, and guess what? It's actually helping, you know, therapy, you know. Who would have thought? Who would have thought? You know, they some you know, some of them I've heard them say, Oh, therapy is for weak for people that are weak. Well, no, but think what you want, you know, therapy is there for a reason, it's there to help you, and just go one time. Go, not not even one time, go like three times, and then tell me how you feel about that. Tell me if it's still for quote unquote weak people, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:08

Weakness is not recognizing that you need help, yeah, not at all.

SPEAKER_03 52:13

And that's something I I laugh, I guess, and I shouldn't, but like for me, I laugh when people say, Oh, uh, let's the therapy is for you know, if you're weak, those are for that's for weak people. Well, okay. Let me know how you feel in 10 years, where you're at mentally in 10 years.

SPEAKER_02 52:35

Right. Right. You're not gonna be strong for very long if you don't address what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 52:41

Tell me how your problems are. Do you have problems at home now? Why? Are you cold? Are you shut down? H have you shut down because you've been running, you know, you're at a you're in an area that tends to run ODs all the time, and you know, they have DOAs and everything like that. Okay, well, tell me how you are. If you're staying in this area, tell me how you are 10 years from now. Tell me how your relationship is 10 years from now. What's your relationship like with your kids 10 years from now?

SPEAKER_00 53:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 53:10

Is it still the same as it was 10 years ago? No, it's probably because you've turned into this cold-hearted person who bottles up all of their emotions instead of talking them out. And I think that that's something going to therapy myself, that is something I have realized is that your relationships with other people and yourself if you see a therapist, it's going to be so much better. You will feel better as a person, and it I think it tends to, I'm not a very good communicator. I mean, unless you get me on to like I can rant and rave about things that I've been through, but communication-wise, I suck. I I used to be terrible, and now you know, I've been seeing a therapist, and even after probably even like not even a year after I first started seeing her, my communication skills have like my husband jokes, is like, dang, the worst thing you did was go to therapy because now you can talk. Now you know how to communicate your problems effectively. And I was like, Well, yeah, I always kind of knew, you know.

SPEAKER_02 54:28

But do you kind of give him some of your things that you've learned in therapy to try for himself?

SPEAKER_03 54:37

Yes. And when I say, and I'm gonna go back to when I dropped out of, you know, I stopped taking my psychology classes, is because I would use them on him in his situations. And because I did I was seeking, I was looking for a while. I was looking into like social work and being a therapist while I was still doing my job, but I can't can't leave my job. I love my job too much. I would use them on him, and he'd be like, Okay, I get it, you know, you're gonna be a good therapist someday. And and slowly I'm like, okay, I love this, but I can't do this on you because I'm I'm using my skills on you, and it's probably not effective. But when I talk my therap, my skills that I learned in therapy, I will I'll bring them to him. And I'm like, hey, look, this is what I learned because I was talking about, you know, it's going, I'm talking about this in therapy, and you know, this was, you know, we talked about doing XYZ. We're talking about, you know, open communication or saying exactly how you feel, and you know, without being angry, without emotion. And he'll be like, oh, okay. And then sometimes I'll get off of therapy and like, hey, what what'd you because I do therapy over zone? And he'll be like, What'd you learn in therapy today? What's something new? Like, go to there, go to go find your own therapist.

SPEAKER_02 56:08

Go to your own therapist. Like, if you're interested.

SPEAKER_03 56:11

Go to your own therapist. If you want to know what therapy is like, go get your own therapist. Right.

SPEAKER_02 56:16

Why doesn't he? What's his defense against it? He's worried about looking weak.

SPEAKER_03 56:23

I say it's the excuse of his schedule being unpredictable because yes, he has quote unquote days off, but we actually really never know if those are gonna be his days off. Um and he's more of like, well, I don't want to forget that I have therapy and forget to call and change my appointment with my therapist. I was like, well, that's why you get a therapist who knows that you have a chaotic schedule, be like, hey, can you work with me if I decide, you know, they decide to, I'm supposed you were supposed to be off at in the morning, but guess what? You guys got toned out of county two hours before you're supposed to be off of work, but five minutes before you're supposed to be off work, then find a therapist that is okay with you canceling literally last minute.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

Like a therapist who works with first responders.

SPEAKER_03 57:16

Yes, and there's there are plenty of them out there, and that's like my therapist. I'm like, I have the name of someone she recommended because this other therapist works with specifically first responders because they're okay with the change in schedule. They are okay with oh hey, you got you got held on, or you you gotta change these. Okay, fine, no big deal.

SPEAKER_02 57:43

Right. They're out there. It's an excuse, right?

SPEAKER_03 57:46

It is, it's an excuse. And I mean, there can be an excuse to everything, but there's always gonna be an answer, there's always gonna be a solution, right?

SPEAKER_02 57:55

There's always a if you want to find one, yes.

unknown 58:00

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 58:02

I mean, I think all the things you're saying are very valid, but at the end of the day, if he doesn't want to find the help yet, you can't force it.

SPEAKER_03 58:13

Oh no, because that would be I mean, that wouldn't be productive at all. I mean, I I had to force my my 13-year-old to go to therapy, and that wasn't very productive because he didn't want to talk, he just sat there, right? So yeah, they have to want it, but I feel like we shouldn't, I mean, don't hound them and nag them to get help and to see, I shouldn't say get help, but to go to therapy. But at the same time, hold them accountable, especially if they say, I am open to therapy, or yes, let let's, you know, I'll look into it, you know, give them, you know, give them a few days, a week or so after they say that. But if they're not on it, you know, hold them accountable for it for sure. But you're you can't force to go.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

I mean, could maybe yeah, I mean, maybe to take that accountability a step further, you could say, okay, you don't need to go to therapy as long as you're coping and you're handling it well. And the second that they don't, that's when therapy needs to come in.

SPEAKER_03 59:21

Yeah, for sure. And I I even think again, maybe if they had an appointment once a month, just to kind of let things out, because I will say there's sometimes like, well, okay, hold on, spare me some of the details because I understand you need to get it out, but I don't want all of the details, you know, some of these calls. And I understand that they're they're really hard, there are some hard calls, and I've had long, hard conversations at two o'clock in the morning and unable to go back to sleep. I'm like, okay, this is where you need a therapist, yeah. Somebody who is trained and not close to you because now I'm going to worry how this is going to affect you.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:14

Absolutely. And I think it's the same as how like a doctor shouldn't operate on their patient. Excuse me. That makes no sense. A doctor should operate on their patients, I have to say. It's the same as how doctors shouldn't, you know, a surgeon shouldn't operate on his or her family member or whatever the case is. It's the same thing. You're not his therapist, you're his wife. And yes, you can support him, but you're not his therapist.

unknown 1:00:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:40

And you're not his mom, you know, like it's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:43

It's you know, it's one of those things where it's like we should, you know, we should push them more to seek therapy.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:51

I think it I've they would probably they don't realize it now, but after going to therapy, then they'll be they'll see that it's oh, okay. They're it is helping. Not a sign of weakness, it's actually it's very, very helpful.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:09

Right. Especially if you find a good therapist for them, in particular, somebody who works with first responders, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:16

Right, right. Well, Megan, I think this has been lovely. We've talked about a lot of really hard stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:26

Yeah. And I get a little, you know, it's a little it it's hard to open up about things, especially essentially publicly open up about things. So it's a little like, oh yeah, I just let all that out.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:41

But thank you for doing that. Someone's gonna someone is you're gonna help a lot of people by doing what you just did and talking about what we talked about.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:49

I hope so. I really do hope so. Because that's you know, again, and I've and it's one of those things that again, I stand on this. You're not alone. Like there's always somebody out there who knows what you're going through. And maybe not exactly, it's never gonna be 100%, but you're not alone, right? And it's okay to not be okay, of course. And it's okay to talk about the ugly, it's okay to accept the ugly.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:21

So yeah, right. You go into it knowing that there's good and bad. Yes, right. It's not to say normalized cheating, that's not at all, but knowing that it's gonna be hard in a lot of ways that you might not expect.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:38

Thank you for sharing. Yeah, I appreciate your openness.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:43

Yeah, it was it was one of those I did it it felt good. Okay, a little awkward, but it definitely felt good.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:49

It didn't feel awkward for me, just so you know. Probably felt hard to talk about it, but it was I didn't feel like this was awkward at all. Yeah, again, you you're not alone. Just to kind of put it back to you, you're not alone, you're not the first person who's been through this.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:05

So I hope it, I do, I do hope it helps someone. And I do hope hope that it help hope that it helps, goodness. That helps, you know, others to seek support around them and to, you know, just reach out to those who you know feel the same way or have gone through the same things.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:26

Right. Awesome. All right. Well, we'll be in touch. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Yeah, anytime. Thanks. Have a good night. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:39

Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed being here as much as I did. If you have any questions for me or if you'd like to be interviewed, please reach out at the firewives podcast at gmail.com. You can also follow me on Instagram and Facebook. Tune in next week for the next episode of Firewives.