IEP Advocate vs Special Education Attorney: When Do You Need Each?

In Episode 3 of Remarkable Futures, we answer a critical question for special needs families: When do you hire an advocate, and when do you need an attorney?

Andrew Feinstein and Terry Bedard explain the differences, discuss navigating IEP meetings, and outline how families can protect their child’s educational rights.

This episode offers clarity for parents facing school-related challenges and difficult educational decisions.

About Remarkable Futures
The Remarkable Futures Podcast is designed to help families make informed decisions about special needs planning, financial security, and long-term care.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

In fact, I've often said that about 60% of my cases are just failures to communicate.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Planning for a loved one with special needs takes clarity and the right strategy. Remarkable Futures brings practical conversations and expert insight to help families protect benefits, build stability, and move forward with confidence.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

I'm Steve Norton. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Remarkable Futures, our podcast addressing special needs issues and trying to be a catalyst for helping you to understand the different things that you need to be looking at as a guardian or parent of a loved one with special needs. With me today is Terry Bedar and Andrew Feinstein, two attorneys, Extraordinaire, who advocate for the rights of kids that have issues with special needs and help the parents to navigate those areas as well. And just incidentally, you know, I'm trying to remember how we connected, Terry. I don't know if it was maybe LinkedIn or something, but we had coffee and that was wonderful. Yes. We did. Andy was we hired you in full disclosure. And initially I like to think of you as our silent attorney because you were in the background advising us without us being uh in a position that appeared adversarial to our school system. Um and I'm very appreciative of that experience that we had with you. Tara, you were with me earlier for a different uh podcast. Um, but if you could just touch on again a little bit your why as to how you found your way into this area of law, and then Andy, if I could have you do the same.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

Well, happy to be back. Thank you for having me. I got involved in this area of law because of my son who was born profoundly deaf. And I was working in corporate law before then, and it wasn't really until I started working in special ed law, uh, just through the personal experience of helping to advocate for my son, that I found that passion of helping not only my own family, but helping other kids with a variety of disabilities. And I've been doing that for three decades now.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Um, this is my second career. Um, prior to this, I was congressional staff in Washington, uh doing uh nuclear disarmament, uh, defense burden sharing procurement. Um I then left Washington, uh, came to Connecticut and opened a really a general practice of law. Uh I was asked by David Shaw, one of the real uh uh gods in this field, to cover his special aid cases uh when he was doing uh the uh a case about the closing of the Southbury Training School. Um and so I did that temporarily uh with David for 10 or 11 years, um, and then and then decided to move my practice down to Mystic near my house. Um, and I've been doing it since so I've been doing this roughly 35 years. Um I've gotta say, I've really I'm not doing a lot of clients right now. Um I'm doing a lot of lobbying, I'm doing a lot of community organizing, um, a lot of general advocacy, um, which is, you know, uh, which is uh what floats my boat. Um I do, however, um, I probably shouldn't say this, I do talk to probably 25, 30 people a week and provide them advice on how to move forward without uh being retained by any of them. Um and I'll I so I'll continue to do that. So um I'm in a different sort of position than than I than I have been, but for years I represented individuals both seeking out of district placements and seeking to uh good programs within district for their children.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Right. Well, I I do want to talk about um some of those things because uh I think the current environment um uh may cause some stress for parents. Um we hear of cutbacks in the Department of Education nationally, um, and there there may be some misconceptions there and what that means. Um and of course, fear is is never something that uh uh fear has its benefits, but um it can be uh all-consuming. So is there do you do either of you have a message about the current environment and what parents may need to be doing to advocate differently than maybe a few years ago?

SPEAKER_01 4:51

The message okay, on the federal level, clearly there's an effort to close down the Department of Education. Now, the Department of Education has provided support, guidance um on special ed uh distribute some funds. Um there's not a lot that they act that actually impacts parrots in a direct, immediate way. Over time, it will cause an erosion.

SPEAKER_03 5:15

Um what I just read though with OCR, the Office of Civil Rights, and so that's for civil rights, obviously, issues, not you know discriminatory kinds of claims. Um they had 9,000 claims or complaints, I should say, and 90% of them were just dismissed without review. So I think that's a an impact on parents.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

The Office for Civil Rights. The Office for Civil Rights is you know is clearly been hollowed out. And one of our initiatives in the state is to create a state office uh to provide that function. California's done that um and you know under consideration in some other states um as well, and that's part of our legislative agenda for this year is to try to get is to try to get that created. That's clearly uh um an important uh um uh initiative. There's an overlap, but not coincidence between special ed law and civil rights. Um well, I no need to go into that. But on the state level, um all we're hearing in the legislature is how much it costs and efforts to reduce the cost of special education. Now that comes in two forms. Um one form is legislators fighting to get more money into their municipality from the state, and we're all for that. That's not a problem. Um uh the but the second point about actually cutting the cost of special education, there just aren't a lot of opportunities to do that. Um the legislature last year focused intently on out-of-district placements um because they're very expensive. And the reason they're expensive is because the most involved complicated kids are sent there with the most involved, complicated IEPs, with the most detailed list of services they need. And as every special ed director I've talked to says, if I could do cheaper in-house, I would. I can't. Um so uh um there is real concern and real pressure. There's real pressure against out-of-district placements, there's real pressure on holding down costs. But I also have to say that when the district says no to you about something, do not immediately assume it's all about the money. Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's about our pride, we can do it, we're we're in control, sometimes it's about we see the situation uh uh differently. Um but um assuming it's about the money is often a mistake. Uh and in fact, um many things that parents want turn out to be less expensive than what the district's offering.

SPEAKER_03 8:01

I think there's a frustration there with parents, though, as they go into these PPT meetings and they're expecting a certain result and they're not getting it. And I love what you said, Andy, about just the pride, because there are a lot of egos, right, in the room, including the parents, including if they're attorneys and advocates, right? And everybody wants a certain result. And if they don't get it, that's when the communication really falters, right? It and then people shut down, the lines of communication are closed, and it's really hard to get what's needed for the child. And I think that's really what the focus has to be on.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Well, I returned to my expert on the subject, Aretha. It's all about respect.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Um that's so true. That's true. She probably gets belt, but I'm not sure right now. Um it, you know, parents are frustrated because they're told no without understanding why they're being told no. Districts uh uh, you know, listen to listen or don't listen to parents uh when they have when they express their views, but don't really delve into why the parents feel that way and what the parents are really looking for. Um and I'm gonna say that the PPT meeting is the worst place to have that happen. I mean, they're not PPT meetings, they're muggies. Um there's one parent, maybe with an attorney or an advocate and 14 people from the school side there. Um uh that's we talked a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

Oh yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

It is uh, you know, it's not the way to have a community to have communication. There are some special ed directors who know it, you know, who are very good, who when they see a conflict coming will call a parent in and say, let's talk about this. Um and um often communication uh resolves the problems. In fact, I've often said that about 60% of my cases are just failures to communicate.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

Um or listen, right? I mean, I think it's really being able to listen, active listening, and asking those questions that you need to ask. There's on my business card, there's a quote from Ralph Waldo and Emerson who said, in education, it's about respecting the child. It really, I mean, it's not exactly verbatim, but yes, and the children and the families understand when there isn't a respect. I think in education law, it's respecting the district too, because even though you don't dis you might disagree or you don't agree with their rationale for whatever they're doing, or maybe you don't even like them. But it's important to respect and listen and try to understand why, because as Andy just pointed out, they might not tell you why. And as a parent, you have the right to understand why they are recommending whatever they're recommending, right? So that's that's really important. Respect is important, and I think another piece of this is not to be zero sum about everything. You know, this gets into the conversation that you have during PPTs, and that is the school district wants one result, maybe it's the child stays in district, the parent wants an outplacement and nothing else, and there's no in-between, right? There's no gray area there. Well, maybe there is a placement that is in district that is more aligned to what the parent wants out outside of the district and hasn't considered that. So there are ways, I think that's the benefit of having an attorney or an advocate in that um conversation because they can steer the conversation to not just okay, we're shutting down, we've reached an impasse, and then we're done with this meeting, let's all storm out, right? It's it's more let's let's listen to the whys behind it, is what you were talking about a little bit earlier.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Right. I I uh said communication, and you said plus listening. I you know, I communication comes in two forms. Yes, expressive and receptive. And receptive communication is really uh um a hard thing. And it's it's there's two pieces to it. One is to actually hear what somebody else is saying and to understand it, but the other is to appear to do that, to actually look like you're listening and paying attention. And that um that is a deficit uh on parent side, certainly a deficit on the administrator side. Um uh so many administrators, particularly this new breed of administrator, sort of thinks that they get to make the decisions and impose them on parents, and that's just not gonna work. Even if their decisions are good decisions, it's gonna result in a reaction.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Uh let's talk a little bit about um the process that a parent or guardian should be going through on understanding when they've gotten kind of past their own capacity where they need help of an attorney and an advocate or an advocate. Um and and I'll have you we'll talk a little bit later about the difference between an advocate and an attorney and where uh there's crossover and where they're which way to go might be better in certain situations. But if as a if you are looking at that parent and they're looking at at a frustration level where they're they they're kind of at their wit's end, is that the point that they go to an attorney and and how do you counsel them at that moment?

SPEAKER_03 13:32

Right. Well, usually by the time parents get to our offices, the communication has broken down for the most part, or there's a very toxic relationship with the district. And so that certainly is a time, I think, to talk to somebody and say, okay, this is what's happened, this is where we are, where do we go from here? And have somebody who is knowledgeable and experienced who can counsel you. Yes. Some parents feel very confident going into meetings, and uh, if they have that behind the scenes, you talked earlier about how Andy handled that behind the scenes for you, so that you could go into those meetings more informed and understanding what the next steps were. So to answer your question directly, yes, it's important to talk to somebody, whether you pull them into the conversation with the district or not is really dependent on the situation. I think that that most people think, oh, well, if you hire an attorney, then oh, the district's gonna get their backup and they're gonna be very adversarial because they're gonna bring in their attorney and things are going to escalate and it's gonna get ugly. That's not the case at all. I mean, it can happen. That can happen, but it has happened. But and some parents, rightly so, do have a concern about that. But I find that in my cases, I think we actually are more productive because I'll call up the board attorney and I'll say, okay, my client has, you know, and of course that's after reviewing the case and knowing that it's a strong case and I'm representing this client, but this is this is the situation, this is what we're looking for. And we have this conversation even before we get into that PPT forum or we get into a meeting, and I have a sense of what the district's position is and where they're willing to negotiate. Uh, and we can go into that meeting, not always knowing everything that's going to unfold, but a lot of times we do. And so that has a way of really minimizing the stress. It's a more productive meeting, we're communicating more, and it could actually be a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Come out of a different, slightly different perspective. I think parents undervalue their own abilities. Um, I think that uh parents have the ability to talk about their child in a way that nobody else can. Um I think that uh parent uh when it gets to a place of anger, um the parents really have to hold it in. Um anger is not a very effective strategy. Yelling at the other side is a terrible strategy. Um one does not get what they want by having a tantrum unless you're three years old or the president of the United States. If I could add that out. Um the uh uh the the much better approach is to talk and see whether there's there's uh common ground. What we don't have in our field, and what we should have, is is coaching. I mean, parents need coaching on what to do, how to do it, without having a lawyer or an advocate involved. Because that does raise the stakes, it does create a level of controversy. As I often said, you know, you bring in a lawyer, they're gonna bring in their lawyer, and their lawyer is gonna tell them what they have to do, not what they can do. Um, and uh uh which is their job. But you know what it's it seems to me that there's a lot that can be that parents have much more power than they exercise. You know, they're obviously two extremes. There's the parent who does too much, and by the time they get to a lawyer, it's sort of hopeless. And then there's the parent who wants uh, you know, concierge service who wants from day one to be in be involved. But it's much more effective for them to do it than for a lawyer or an advocate to do it.

SPEAKER_03 17:21

Don't you think, Andy, that our ultimate goal is to help train the parents? You could use the word coach, I like, uh, to coach the parents, okay, you're going into this meeting, this is what you want, but you don't really have enough documentation for that, or you don't really, you know, documentation that actually is an actionable item. Make sure that you document everything. I love what Pete Wright, a renowned special ed attorney, said if it's not in writing, it never happened. But those are the kinds of things that we can help coach parents on. Um, and ultimately we want them to be able to do it on their own eventually, right? We'd kind of help them through a situation, depending on the situation, right? It just depends on the situation.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

There's a reason for that, of course. One reason for that is that they the school district owns your kid for 18 years. Right. And so, you know, if you if you burn bridges in the year one, um, you're gonna be in a war for the next 18 years. Um, so it it's it's good to build a relationship and to maintain a relationship. Um, not always possible. Um, it's two-sided, and you know, there are plenty of times when there's nobody with whom to build a relationship on the other side. Um but I do think you know, communication and uh listening and talking is is the best option, and you bring in a lawyer only, you know, um if necessary. Only in extremes in extreme circumstances. Now, what Terry was saying, which you know is absolutely right, is that in Connecticut particularly, we have a mediation system, and you know, about 60% of cases settle at mediation day, and the rest settle between mediation and the first day of hearing, pretty much. There are almost no hearings left. Um, unfortunately, in my view. Uh there um there are almost no hearings left. And so, you know, it takes compromise on both sides. Um there's uh Harry alluded to this, but there's you know too much black and white thinking on both sides, and either it's right or it's wrong. It doesn't work like that.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

And I think part of our job uh is to counsel parents and say, okay, really give them what is what's realistic, what's reasonable, right? Um, based on our experience and and really help them, it's it's managing the expectations, is what it is, and helping them to understand what um is reasonable. And that's based on the law, it's based on our relationships with different districts, it's based on our relationships with board attorneys. There are some board attorneys that you can't really work with as effectively, right? They're they're few and far between of that. But uh, but but there are a lot of different factors that play into it. Well, I think we can help.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yeah, the big deal is remain focused on what's get what's the kid, what the kid's getting out of it. Right. There are so many parents who become so angry that their goal is to punish the district. And oh yeah, it's never gonna happen. Um, and you know, raising costs to the district is only raising costs to you as a taxpayer. Um, it's just not gonna happen. And so uh it is often very important to remind the parent uh that it's you know, is the kid getting what the kid needs, no matter how it's done. Um and secondly, for us lawyers, it's remembering that we're there to serve our clients. We are not there to make law for ourselves. And um, you know, there are lots of cases I would like to take a lot farther than the settlements I get. Um, but I've got I'm there to to serve the interest of the kid and to serve the interest of the client.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

Right, because you have to balance. Well, are you going to pay a certain amount to cover attorney's fees, right? Um, and the time that it takes and the emotional angst that you experience uh when you're being um cross-examined, for example, by you know, a board attorney, it's it's all of those factors, what it does to you as a parent, um, you know, it's sometimes the protracted litigation, as they call it, right? It's just it's not worth it. So you you make some concessions because ultimately we really want what's you know right for the child.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

So if you think of it from the perspective of a potential client of yours or that parent that is considering bringing an attorney into the situation, you know, there there I think there's some stereotypes on the other side that um apparently. Would view I'm bringing an attorney in, that's the nuclear option. That's we're going full full boat. But the reality is, and this gets to something that I really hope that our viewers and listeners will understand, is that working with an attorney is one, in my view, an investment. And two, that the ultimate direction isn't necessarily confrontation, it's that coaching aspect. So I guess in a roundabout way, what I'm asking is when you're what advice would you have to that potential client in helping them to understand that it isn't necessarily they're going to the nuclear option? And the other thing that I think takes place is you have some parents on the other extreme that get so afraid of potential costs that they never engage in a way that they should when it will be ultimately a good investment for the long-term outcome of their child.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

Right. Right. Well, you're in yes, okay. All right. Well, first of all, the investment is in your child, right? You your investment in your child's education can completely change the trajectory of whether that child succeeds or not. It really can, and I I don't put that much stock in every, you know, what we do to make that happen all the time. But but the point is that if you have a parent whose child is not succeeding, not making that meaningful educational progress, not in an appropriate program in the public school, really needs an outplacement. Parent cannot afford to unilaterally place, right? But can wants to go after the districts because they should be able to fund this outplacement if they're not providing an appropriate placement in district, right? And so let's say that that outplacement, just for simplicity's sake, is $100,000. And so they have no idea how to go about advocating for that for their child to spend the, you know, thousands, yes, but maybe, you know, less, I don't know, I can't give numbers, right? But uh yeah, but the the the investment of hiring an attorney to get that maybe it's a two-year deal with the district to pay for that, and the parent has to chip in transportation or something like that. I mean, they can negotiate through an attorney something very lucrative that will completely change the child's life because that placement might be the difference maker and how that child can succeed. So that I mean that's a simplistic example, but it's something that actually happens all the time.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I would not limit it to an economic calculation. Right. No, I mean it is an investment in the child, and the child's you know, and I I'm I'm you know, I'm personally allergic to taking money from people if I'm not gonna do something for them. Um so uh, you know, um, and you know, I'm uh I cost a lot of money. Um it's it's absolutely the case. Um and so you know that's uh and which and the you know and the other thing about that is I charge by the hour, as most of us do. And it's not, you know, you talked about parents who who don't want to spend any money. I we we have clients who refuse to call us or tell us much of anything because they know they're gonna get charged for it. Yet that information is essential to move the case forward, and that's that continues to be a uh a problem. Um you know, I I think it there are plenty of cases where it's an excellent decision. Um, you know, and every May or June I get emails from parents saying, oh, my kid graduated high school or graduated college, and it never would have happened without you. Thank you very much. Um and so you know I I hope that I didn't you know help one or two children along the line.

SPEAKER_03 25:53

Um I think ethically we have to uh look at whether a client has a case or not, right? If if the client doesn't have a case, then there's we either build the case so that there is you know a case, um, or we we can't take it, right? We just we have to say, you know what, you I can't help you.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Um or the parent wants, you know, A, and we have to convince them that A is uh not appropriate or not viable. And you know, then maybe you should take B.

SPEAKER_03 26:26

But the nuclear option, I think that goes to tone and style. So I would advise every parent to get referrals and interview uh attorneys or advocates if that's the case, and just see is there is there a style that you're looking for? Because I absolutely 100% agree with Andy, uh, that that going into meetings or approaching it uh all or nothing and just being, you know, having the tantrum, I think is how you phrased it, uh, is is not effective. And there are attorneys and advocates that may have that style. Um, so I think you want to know what is the background, what is the experience of the attorney, that uh there could be quite a bit of success going in and achieving those goals without being nuclear.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Well, but but the nuclear option is going to a hearing. The average hearing in Connecticut, well, there's a new law that limits length of hearings, but the average has been 11 days for a hearing, full days, um uh with witnesses and cross-examination, and it's an incredibly difficult experience for both sides, which is what one reason there are so few hearings. Um, the new legislation generally limits hearings to four days, um, but uh with the uh provision that a hearing officer can can extend it. Um my position is uh that that was actually a great victory for us because the district has the burden of proving their appropriate district their program is appropriate and has the burden of going first now. And with those two things, they get two days, which is really one day because we have equal time for cross-examination, to do that. Okay, and uh that's a really difficult task. And so my general position is never to agree to extend beyond four days.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Um you touched on the search for an attorney or an advocate. Right. Um I and maybe this is not an accurate assumption, but I would think that advocates sometimes will refer to attorneys and and vice versa. Could you explain the differences? Uh obviously, an advocate is not going to have a law degree, it's not gonna take a legal action, um, but they have their place in this process. Um, can you explain the pros and cons of of each way and maybe how they they interrelate?

SPEAKER_03 28:48

Yeah. Well, so an advocate does not have any licensure or certification requirements. There are no qualifications necessarily. There are some trainings out there that are great, but an advocate really focuses on his or her reputation and experience more, and obviously cannot engage in the unauthorized practice of law. So an advocate can't go to a hearing and represent a client. An advocate, and there's some great advocates, we have some really terrific advocates here in Connecticut. Um, but yeah, I mean, they can work well with attorneys in terms of setting up a case. I talked earlier about how sometimes um if somebody calls me and I say, you know what, you're not ready for me. You're you've got to build your case. And okay, you don't I hear you that you don't want to necessarily bring in a lawyer right now. Maybe you should work with an advocate and have an advocate come because that person's gonna seem like less of a threat, perhaps. Um, not always the case, but perhaps. Uh, and so I think that's a good way of you know bringing in um an advocate. And advocates are a really good, although I personally love going to PPTs. I love asking questions and getting to know the people and where they're coming from and why. Uh, but advocates typically function um you know more at PPTs um and and can be very effective there in building the record.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

So if you want somebody to hold your hand, go to an advocate. They're a lot cheaper. Um they you know will spend much more time on a case usually. Um and uh um and they, you know, in theory anyways, are looking to work out something, to make it happen. Um when you come to a lawyer, you're looking for an issue of disagreement that we can prevail upon um based on the evidence, based on the law. Um and so it's only at that point that that a lawyer really becomes becomes effective. Now, there are yes, a lot of advocates refer stuff to us when it gets when it gets uh troublesome. Um and uh um you know, usually the case is fairly well packaged um at that point in time, um, and and there's a clear disagreement, some something to work on.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

So you're suggesting though that the lawyer would get involved, obviously, in a hearing situation, because an advocate couldn't represent the client in the hearing. But we also, as you pointed out earlier, you know, it's absolutely the case that most of the cases do get resolved in mediation or before the first day of hearing, right? So I think that's would you think that's that's a conflictual issue?

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Oh, okay, all right. Okay, so so there's mediations which lead to written mediation agreements, which are contracts. And there are a lot of advocates who do mediation with people and have you know that and have their clients sign a binding contract without legal repeal. That's a problem, um, uh which is what Terrell's referring to. The other issue, which is really growing on a national level, is complaints by special administrators about out of control and you know incompetent advocates. Um there's some move uh afoot um in terms of the regulation of advocates. Now, COPA, our national organization, has some has some terrific uh co standards, code of ethics for advocates. And you know, I I would certainly suggest that if you hire an advocate, you want somebody who signed on to that um to the to those standards. And meantime, you know, in my role as government affairs person for my national organization, I'm trying to work a situation where if there are rules, we set them rather than the other side setting them for advocates. Excellent.

SPEAKER_03 32:43

You know, one advantage though, of just thinking about with the advocate is that um ethically, Andy and I uh cannot contact a special ed director um or anyone that works at the school district if they are represented by counsel. Uh, because that's true. Right. And so but the advocate can. The advocate can reach out to a special ed director and have a conversation with that person. So there is there are some differences there, I think. I don't know if that's advantageous or not, but as I said earlier, I usually contact the board attorney and try to work out as much as possible. Um, so I I don't know that it's more advantageous to talk to the special ed director as right um as an advocate versus an attorney talking to another board attorney to try to work things out. But I'm just citing a difference.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Yeah, one of the things about a connected is that all the board attorneys, first you all the board attorneys.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

So when you say board attorneys, you're referring to the school district, once you're the education attorney, are very experienced.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Um and um generally try to make these things go away. You know, they're not in there to to stoke up their fees, with some exceptions. Um, and so you know, yeah, if you conversations between lawyer to lawyer can often resolve these things.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

Well, I always try to uh I first of all, we could probably go on for another couple hours. Um, this is great material. I think it will be helpful for the people that uh have an opportunity to watch and listen to the podcast. I do want to try to wrap up with a feeling of hope or positivity, if that's a word. Is positivity a word? I think yes, yes. So um you both have been doing this for quite some time and you both have seen outcomes that um would provide hope. Do you you could each of you maybe share a story without, you know, obviously naming a client, but of something that seemed at the point where you were involved that looked like it wasn't gonna be uh, you know, it looked almost like it could be a tragic outcome that turned into something that very hopeful.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

I'm gonna speak generally because as you say, you have confidentiality, but I I think what I've seen generally in terms of my cases where it's made the biggest impact would involve a child with an emotional disability who might have suicidal ideations and is completely um not accessing his or her education in the public school and needs an outplacement in a therapeutic school. And to get those outplacements and have those children really turn around their lives uh is I think very possible with uh with the help of an attorney. I I do.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

And the area I that I think work, you know, you I see the greatest benefit is in structured literacy. Um we have kids who cannot read, who are being given a reading program which is not scientifically based, which you know doesn't do any good. And by forcing the district into a structured literacy program using Wilson or or um Morton Gillingham. Well, Wilson's based on Gillyhouse. Yes. Um, you know, uh I've seen kids turn around and suddenly are able to read, and that deals with all sorts of other issues, emotional issues, uh acceptance and school um uh attention issues. Um that's been the area of of great success. Um and you know, over time, uh districts, the schools are picking up, you know, more and better curricula and things are working a little better. But my overall concern is that the level of success for special education is still dismally low in Connecticut, and Connecticut's one of the best in the country.

SPEAKER_03 36:34

Okay, that's not encouraging, no. That's not okay, you won't want to leave that, but um, but I but I think that the reading example is an excellent example because that is really the foundation for all success in life, honestly. Um but I but I would say to parents that you can talk to us, you can just call us up. You don't necessarily have to retain us. Uh you said that you spend 20 to 25 people a week, I think you said.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Put your phone number at the bottom of the screen.

unknown 37:05

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

But yeah, I do talk to not 20 people a week, but I do talk to some people they call up and they they want information. I can't give you specific legal advice without an attorney-client relationship and reviewing the records, understanding your child. But I can certainly do, you know, what you're doing, which is giving general information, some general guidance, giving you educating you. Again, it's that coaching idea. It's it's really understanding what you need to do and um given the situation, because every situation's different, and every case that comes across our desks are a little different, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:46

So uh that's one of the really exciting things about practicing in this area of law, that there is such diversity. I mean, I look at the other lawyer in my office who's doing real estate, and every close Evan says, but every close is the same. Um, here we have a different disability, we have a different approach to disability. We have two kids with autism, one of whom responds really well to discrete trial training, and the other one who responds terribly to it. Um, you know, and it's really interesting to see the differences and what and what works.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

Right, exactly. And I think we have a really good camaraderie in our community uh in terms of helping each other. Um, and and I think that helps us to be better lawyers.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

The a lot of times with an outcome of an outplacement, um, and I would guess that most of the time with an outplacement where an agreement is reached with a school system, that's that agreement is intended to remain confidential. Um there's confidentiality agreements that the parents are signing off with the school systems. Um as a parent, um, I think what one of the things that might be hopeful is to know that what these outcomes potentially can be, but they're not public. Do you how do you feel about that? Should there be more transparency in um outcomes in terms of uh what school districts are doing on an individual case-by-case basis without again violating confidentiality?

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Well, I think what I want and what actually I can get or do, right, in terms of that provision, because that is a boilerplate, non-negotiable provision in pretty much any settlement agreement. I think it's now extended even to sometimes include lawyers. Lawyers can't even talk about the outcomes of uh different cases beyond their typical attorney-client privilege, right? So yeah. And so I think that to change that, I it would be nice to have um more transparency around that. I do think though that the State Department of Ed is including some complaints, administrative complaints online now, which was due to a great deal of lobbying effort. But um, but in terms of individual client, in the example that you gave with the outplacement uh agreements, that's that's a tough one. It really is.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

Let me say that the issue about non-disclosure agreements came up during hearings last year, and I then uh talked to colleagues both in the state and around the country, and it was sharply divided, uh, with a lot of people feeling that if the outcomes were public, we'd get a lot less uh because districts would be exposed as soon as they were paid. And so um we never move forward with with moving to uh to ban non-disclosure of agreements, which I think was a possibility. Um, but I'm not sure that that works. On the other hand, if you come to me and I, you know, when I'm into your case, I usually at the beginning of the mediation say this is what it's gonna settle for, and I'm usually pretty close to accurate. Um you know, one of the advantages of having an experienced bar on both sides in Connecticut is we've been, you know, we've been to this rodeo before, we know where it's gonna come out. And you know, often the often the more difficult issue is uh dealing with your client than dealing with the other side on that. Um uh the uh um it is uh you know, so we give given a case uh and a decent lawyer, they should have a pretty good idea of what's of what's possible there. Um and if you want 100%, you're gonna go through a hearing. And the chances that you win a hearing are less than 50% in Connecticut.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

And I think my interaction as a parent with other parents uh or guardians of kids with special needs, when they're hesitant to engage in uh potentially hiring an attorney to try to seek these kind of outcomes, my natural inclination is it was the best investment we ever made in our son. And yet I can't fully articulate it because I have a non-disclosure agreement.

SPEAKER_03 42:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

Well, so look, the my basic answer is that the district is going to the most of these things settle in cost sharing its own, particularly private district placements, that the district is going to pay based on how vulnerable they feel to losing at a hearing. Um and uh if they think it's a very high probability, they're gonna pay a lot. And if they think it's a low probability, they're gonna pay pay less. And so it really depends on the quality of the parent's case. And one thing I didn't say before is, uh, which I'm surprised I didn't say, is you need an expert. You can't win a hearing without an expert. You can't win a change to the district's position without an expert. The first thing you need to do as a parent is to get somebody who's going to say what you want to say. Because, look, I've represented some of the greatest educational experts in the state for their own kids. They're still parents. They're just the parent. You need somebody with letters after their name who's articulate and who can explain why the outcome you want is necessary and more importantly, why the program proposed by the district is not appropriate. Um, that is, you know, and so, in terms of what you need to do as a parent, the first thing you need to do is to get that person who's going to help you. Now, in many cases, it's a neurocyte, but not in all cases. Um, you need somebody who is going to understand the learning needs of that child, who is going to review the school program, hopefully observe the school program to make that statement, and then be able to say this is this is absolutely first. Not a comparison. The first thing is to demonstrate that the program offered by the district is not appropriate. Period. No comparison. And only if you can prove that, do you get to demonstrate that the program you want is appropriate.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

Well, thank you both. Uh again, if we could maybe circle back and uh there's a a business thing that I'm sure you've heard of the elevator speech. That you get in the elevator, you and if you can put yourself in the elevator and walking into the elevator is a stressed-out parent that has this situation that they're dealing with. What would be the takeaways that you would want them to get from a conversation of with you as they go from the first floor to the 50th floor in that skyscraper?

SPEAKER_03 44:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

What would you say to them in that elevator?

SPEAKER_03 44:53

It's gonna be okay. I can't guarantee that everything will work out the way you want it to, but maybe you just need a little bit of coaching. Maybe you should talk with a lawyer or an advocate, someone who specializes in this area. They can tell you what they've seen, maybe give you some uh guidance in terms of your child. So I think that would be the first thing. And what have you done to document everything that you're telling me has happened, right? Is there, are there emails? Is there um are there evaluations? Is there data in in the file and real data, right, Andy? I mean, not just the observations that someone has seen, right? So what what does your record show for your child? And if you don't have that documentation, which is basically the evidence that we need in order to prove a case, uh then, and and to really make that case a strong case, right? As Andy was talking about how vulnerable the district feels. So parents document, document everything. So look at what you have and and how do you move forward with that, right? To to be able to get what you need for your child and really focusing on your child, and that even if you can't stand your district and you really can't stand these people that just seem very unfair to you and you want justice to be done, um, yes, that happens to us all. I've been in those shoes.

unknown 46:23

I have.

SPEAKER_03 46:24

But at the same time, you want to work things out as best you can for the sake of your child, and that means collaborating with the district as much as possible. Can I leave anything out?

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Yeah, anything else say in the you know, if you're gonna challenge the district, you need an expert. And yeah, that's that's one thing you absolutely need. Um don't count, don't count it as an expert necessarily. It could be your child's psychologist or therapist. Um, it it could be somebody who's done some evaluations, but they they really have to know the child. Um that's one thing you need. My advice generally is not to assume that the school district is out to harm your child. Um you know, when people go into this business because they want to help kids too, and they've got their own constraints, and uh it's uh so that's important to remember. The you know, third thing to remember, which is so difficult, is this is a shared power decision. We don't like sharing power. Um we don't under they don't understand about sharing power, we don't understand about sharing power. It's it's a shared decision, and you know, um that involves compromise, um, that involves understanding what the other person wants, needs, um, and uh working out something that that that uh uh that's gonna benefit your child in the long run. Um and the other thing I would you know I constantly say is there is no there are lots of wrongs, but there's no absolute right on this. There is no program that the child must have or the child's gonna fail.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Well, the elevator just hit the 50th floor, and I wish it had another 50 floors to go up to spend more time talking with you both. But thank you again for your time today. Appreciate it. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

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