Presence Podcast - Episode 10: Dumping the Dopamine

In this episode, John and Ali discuss the fascinating topic of Self-Discipline -- and how leaders and use it to successfully beat back those harmful, hard-wired behaviors that can keep holding us back.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Hi there, everyone, and welcome to the Presence Podcast. I'm John Miller, Executive Director of the Institute for Optimal Leadership Presence, and I'm joined as always by Allie Carson, founder and CEO of Mouvere Coaching. Hey Ali, how's it going today? I'm doing absolutely great, John. How about you? I'm doing well.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Awesome. Well, here we are at episode 10, which is a little hard to believe of the Presence Podcast. In today's episode, we will be closing out our discussion on self-management with a great conversation about the all-important topic of self-discipline. And just to set the context, self-management is an essential part of Aristotle's teachings on ethos, which covers the character and behavioral aspects of who I am and how others perceive me. And it's a crucial element of our overall leadership presence. And at the end of today's episode, we're going to talk a little bit more about how all of this comes together from a big picture perspective.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

That sounds great, Allie. So let's dive into self-discipline. You may recall that over the past few episodes, we've talked at length about self-awareness and self-reflection. Well, self-discipline is the natural follow-up to those components. While self-awareness helps us to understand the what and the why of our behaviors and how those behaviors land with the people around us. And self-reflection helps us to process which of those behaviors we need to stop, start, or continue. Self-discipline considers how we're actually going to incorporate changes and adjustments to those behaviors. From a behavioral perspective, self-discipline is the ability to align or adjust our actions, motives, and emotions in a way that says no to our obstacles and replaces ineffective behaviors with disciplined behaviors that strengthen us to achieve goals and outcomes that will lead to effectiveness and success. In short, it's the ability to do the right thing in the right way at the right time, despite any internal or external noise we might be experiencing. We really can't separate our desire and ability to do the right thing, such as making the decision to change a behavior we know is not in our best interest as a leader, and the motives that we might have in any one given moment to engage in an old default or go-to behavior instead. Many people simply don't understand the power and the gravitational force that some of our ingrained behaviors have in our lives, what psychologists call the science of the pull. These go-to behaviors become reflexive, operating without conscious thought. But the story gets even more complicated than that. Actually, those bad habits and ingrained behaviors that sometimes control us are designed by our brains to provide a dopamine hit, a reinforcing, feel-good chemical that rewards us for doing what it perceives to be the right thing. Even when that right thing is a bad habit that gets us in trouble. This means that your brain is not just leading you into disruptive behavior automatically, it's rewarding you for doing it and actively fighting to maintain it for more rewards, sort of like hitting the level cap in a game where you're eventually a loser. It's self-discipline, that ability to say, nope, not going to go there this time, that overcomes that cycle in any given moment in our lives. That is, if we are willing to forgo the quick rush of that reward of feeling justified when we bring someone back to our level through a cutting remark, or we lash out in anger when every ounce of our brain knows that they deserve it. The principles of self-discipline can overcome these outbursts. As our friend Aristotle put it, through discipline comes freedom. Let's go back and talk about two of those six behavioral triggers we introduced earlier in the podcast series. We'll especially focus on values and beliefs and motives and motivations. For most people, values and beliefs represent what they want their life to be about. Their values are good, positive desires to be people that have a favorable impact on others who want to do their jobs well and generally want to be good people. Their beliefs generally follow the same course. So why doesn't any one person always follow their values and beliefs? The simple, not so grandiose answer to that question is that any one given moment of time, they experience a motive that counters their values. Let's say that you have what you feel is an important appointment with someone and they are late. Five minutes, ten minutes, fifteen minutes pass, and no show. We're sitting there with a slow burning fuse, and we feel disrespected and angry, even without thinking about the fact that they may be having car trouble or caught in heavy traffic or worse. The bad news is that oftentimes our brain doesn't even offer up an alternative to the old behavior, it just pushes us toward the dopamine fix. Unless, of course, we are somehow able to generate a need, the desire, and a command to counteract that old behavior and its dopamine promise. Well, here's the deal: the need to overcome is generated by self-awareness, the desire to overcome is generated by self-reflection, and the command to overcome is generated by self-discipline, the mechanism to replace a bad or ineffective behavior with something better. But that command, that mechanism must be stronger than the dopamine hit, the emotional reward for satisfying the original behavior. In our example of getting mad when someone shows up late, the reward for getting angry is that we've settled the score, we've shown our displeasure. That will show them for disrespecting me by showing up late. Self-discipline teaches us that the feeling of satisfaction that we get from aligning with our values and overcoming the old behavior is just as good. No, it's even better than the reward for satisfying our urge to get angry. The problem is that those lessons come much more slowly than what the dopamine has to offer us immediately. And that's the complexity of self-discipline. It normally takes more time, more episodes than one, or maybe even several more successful episodes to effectively change a behavior. More on that in a few minutes. Now, let me caution that what we've provided here is a very simplified version of self-discipline, overcoming unwanted behaviors. It works for those nuisance kinds of behaviors that generate that pull that keeps us from being as effective as we'd like to be. However, when behaviors become addictions, this pull is amplified by what neuroscientists call neuroadaptations that turn a habit into a survival-level drive. When addictive behaviors are deeply ingrained, self-discipline requires the help of external structural and social support to succeed. If you need help in those areas, we urge you to seek some expert help, starting with your primary care physician.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Yes, absolutely. And I love how you've kind of pulled together all the elements of self-management and shown how they each pull in at play in these circumstances. That's such a great analogy here. So where do we start with self-discipline? It may not be a bad idea to begin with how you speak to yourself. That's right. Effective self-talk acts as a crucial cognitive supplement to self-discipline by shifting internal dialogue from limiting to enabling. If you remember in our last episode, we talked about how getting direct feedback from others can sometimes put us into a bit of a mental funk, for lack of a better word. Just one piece of negative feedback can quickly become a much larger narrative in our heads if we're not careful. We are much better off if we use our internal dialogue to inform us that this feedback should become an opportunity for us to conquer a barrier and improve our leadership ethos. Well, we should take that positive self-talk and parlay it right into an encouraging dialogue that fuels self-discipline, which could go something like this. I really want to conquer this patience issue when people don't show up exactly when I would like them to or when we agree to. Effective self-discipline starts with mastering your thoughts because the self-talk directs emotions and behaviors. So if you can replace those self-limiting narratives with more constructive, eye-focused and present-tense statement, that allows you to override the immediate emotional desires in favor of those long-term goals. So you can kind of keep that end goal in sight and not get caught up in the moment quite as much.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

This shift from internal critique and negativity to deliberate strategic thinking is so critical in building mental toughness. So here's a few strategies that are really key for creating effective self-talk. First, flip the narrative. So shift the negative, disempowering thought. I can't do this, I'm not good enough, whatever they might be, to more proactive, positive alternative. So you might say instead, I know this has been a problem for me in the past, but I believe this is the best time for me to make a significant change. Or even something as simple as, I can't do this yet, and bringing in that growth mindset. That's a great practice. You also want to try to avoid self-limiting language. So replace things like, this is going to be tough. What if I fail? To, I'm learning to be disciplined and that's going to make all the difference this time. Really can help shift your identity to align with your actions. You can also use affirmative eye language. So again, speaking in that present tense to reinforce your identity as a disciplined person. I am sure I can make this change. I am someone who follows through on my commitments to myself. Those are all positive affirmative eye language statements that can help flip some of that self-talk. You can also start by setting clear, small goals. So use your self-talk to break down those bigger tasks into much smaller, achievable steps. So maybe you say, I'm going to take these situations one at a time. The next time this happens, I'm going to assume positive intent and believe that the person has something come up that prevented them from being on time. Now remember that effective self-talk focuses on taking action regardless of how you feel, acknowledging that short-term comfort hinders long-term goals. Mental toughness is a muscle, just like anything else. Self-discipline isn't innate, it is developed by consistently keeping promises to oneself, which is reinforced through that positive inner dialogue. Self-talk is a key part of a human brain phenomenon called neuroplasticity, which is this internal process that allows the nervous system to reorganize its structure, functions, and connections in response to either intrinsic or extrinsic stimuli throughout life. This allows the brain to form new neural pathways, strengthen existing connections, and even compensate for injury or changes in the environment. There's a lot of deep science behind neuroplasticity, but the basic premise is pretty easy to understand. Remember, we talked at length a few episodes ago about the fact that our brains are hardwired genetically and through repeated soft wiring that happens as a result of events and relationships of our lives growing up. Some of that hard and soft wiring is positive and helpful. And some of it leads to behavioral patterns that aren't quite productive for us. Some of them are just downright bad for us. Neuroplasticity works on the same principle, except that it involves intentionality and focus in changing those behaviors that we would rather disregard and replacing them with new wired behaviors. To put it in layman's terms, neuroplasticity can help you unwire certain behaviors and rewire new behaviors into your brain. Neuroplasticity also enhances self-discipline by allowing the brain to physically rewire its neural pathways through consistent effort and repetition. So by repeatedly forcing the brain to focus and act kind of against that temptation or that natural reaction, you actually strengthen the prefrontal cortex, which is that seed of self-control that you have in the front of your brain and help make disciplined behaviors automatic over time rather than something that is mentally exhausting and draining for you. And John, I think you've developed a process from those principles to help leaders create self-discipline in their lives.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Yeah, that's right, Allie. As we learned in our last episode, it's so important in these areas such as self-reflection and self-discipline that can tend to float around in our brains like conceptual clouds, that we identify some mental processes that can help us work through issues in a way that actually leads to concrete growth and change. So here's a six-step process I developed a couple of years ago that can help us understand a common sense approach to applying self-discipline in our lives. Actually, before we get into the self-discipline process, there is a preamble step. Remember, in our last episode, we talked about a process that helps leaders deal with direct or collateral damage that they may have caused by their own words and behaviors. I'm talking about the impact process. So if a behavior or behaviors have had a negative impact on your team or others around you, it really is imperative that you take care of and resolve that situation before you try to use self-discipline to improve the behavior. It would be disingenuous to move on to the growth process if you still have some work to do in cleaning up hurt, anxiety, or other dissonance caused by the behavior you're trying to clean up. For leaders, it's almost always first things first. So for more information on that impact process, be sure to check out episode nine of the podcast. Once you've cleaned up any messes that you've caused, you can then go on to the self-discipline process, which I call embracing the discipline of changed behaviors. The first step is to clarify, visualize, and articulate the outcomes that we want or need. This is the what we're trying to accomplish through self-discipline. This step prepares the brain for action, turning I want or I need into a precise target, reducing cognitive ambiguity. Behind every behavior change, there's a real outcome that we want to achieve, probably a different reality than we have now. Let's say that you're dealing with a situation where you've been micromanaging the folks on your team and you've received feedback that team members are not happy about it. They feel cramped and frankly less than because you don't trust them enough to let them use their skills, abilities, and judgment to get the work done their way. So, what's the new outcome you're looking for? First, you clarify what is it that you're really trying to accomplish? Here's where you take the concept of moving away from micromanagement and you flesh it out a bit. What employees really want is a heightened degree of autonomy over their work. But that doesn't mean they don't want you involved at all. So, what does that look like? It probably means that you should be providing direction and support and some degree of accountability, but not smothering them with the idea of do it this way or it's wrong. Now you're starting to zero in a bit more on what it means to avoid micromanaging. Next, you want to visualize success. What would this look like? And what would it look like for each employee? Visualizing helps you to walk through different scenarios in your mind based on what you know from the past and project into the future. When you can actually see yourself in a scenario when you're having the right conversation with employees about their work and their results, then you are really on the road to making the right kinds of changes. Then finally, you can articulate the outcome you're looking for. I want to be able to assign work, ask the team member if they understand what we need to accomplish with the work or process, let them see that I'm around to discuss any questions, needs, or concerns that they have during the course of the assignment. Then schedule some check-in points where they report back with progress. Then I'm going to let them do the work. Notice the clarity of the outcome. It addresses not only how the work will be assigned, but also how you will give the team member the responsibility to do the work in a way that they feel is best and then report back on progress. And notice that you're giving your brain clear instructions and how you want to act in the future in these situations. So the first step is to clarify, visualize, and articulate the outcome. The second step is to identify the internal and external obstacles you might face in achieving that outcome. In a very real sense, these are the specific cues that trigger the old behaviors. By acknowledging these obstacles, you're allowing your prefrontal cortex to plan reducing emotional hijacking by the amygdala. Internal obstacles in our micromanaging example could be a lack of trust in the skills and abilities of your team. This is sort of pride in reverse, right? You may believe at some level that no one could do the job quite like you can. So you want to make sure they do it the way you do it. Another internal obstacle in this case might be the fear of understanding that you've not you've actually not trained your members the right way to do the work. And this could come back to reflect poorly on you. The common link here is that you really don't trust your team. An example of an external obstacle might be that you truly feel like you don't have the time to allow your team members to learn the full scope of the work while they're doing it. And you need to intervene in order to speed up the process. Or it could be that even though they don't want to be micromanaged, there may be some employees who don't have a strong degree of confidence that they can do the work well. It could be even that you have certain internal or external customers who would rather you do the work because they know they'll get what they want faster if you do it. I think we've experienced that before.

unknown 20:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

The bottom line is that you need to identify these barriers so that you can be prepared to respond correctly when they actually do appear. And they actually usually appear. The third step of the process is to articulate new behaviors to overcome the obstacles. This is the core of rewiring and deliberately designing the replacement behaviors. This part of the process replaces or disrupts the automatic loop of cue, old behavior, and reward, that dopamine rush of you coming to the rescue of your team, which is really what micromanaging is all about. We replace that old loop with a new conscious behavior loop. The fourth step is to acknowledge the pain associated with giving up the old behavior and taking on the new behavior. This is recognition that the pain, which is usually robbing yourself of that dopamine, and maybe even some remorse, will work its way into your amygdala. Neuroscience tells us that this emotional engagement acts as the glue for neural pathways to solidify learning. In other words, acknowledging the pain creates a strong emotional incentive, ensuring the brain recognizes the importance behind the change. This could show up in a lot of different ways in our micromanaging example. You might even find that the part of the pain you're feeling is that you're giving up a Task or assignment that may have actually brought you meaning before you were a manager. Perhaps you were even recognized as showing strong competencies in that area, maybe even a hero. And you know you're giving that up to others. It could also involve the pain of slowing things down in the process to allow others to learn. And you just feel like you don't have the time that allows for that. Articulating this emotional pain is important because it probably gets you closer to the real root of the issue. Micromanaging most often reflects a leader's desire to save the day or rescue the assignment, and that brings more dopamine. Sometimes giving up that dopamine in exchange for the new reward you get from the new behavior is like giving up a piece of chocolate cake for a serving of Brussels sprouts. It just doesn't seem to be a fair exchange. But over time, the long-term benefits of Brussels sprouts will take over. At least that's what they tell me. The next step in the process is to formulate a plan to overcome obstacles by replacing unhealthy behaviors with successful behaviors that are aligned with your new outcomes. You will hear these voices in your brain telling you at the first sign of trouble, see, I told you this wasn't going to work. Your team members are struggling to get the assignment done, and you're going to have to intervene anyway. And you know what? Your amygdala might be right in one sense. You may have to intervene, but you're going to plan to intervene in a completely different way. Instead of intervening by taking back the work and doing it yourself, you're going to intervene by meeting individually with the team members who are struggling, by acknowledging what they've done well, encouraging them not to give up, and guiding them through the work by asking a series of respectful open-ended questions. That way the work stays with them, and you have the opportunity to create value by coaching them instead of hijacking their work. The thing about that new kind of intervention is that it has to be purposeful and intentional to stay on target with the new outcomes that you're looking to accomplish. Brain science tells us that pre-planned implementations are proven to automate responses to common situations that come up. And finally, step six is to write a commitment to your new behaviors and share it with others. This public commitment leverages social brain mechanics for consistency and it shows others, especially those who have been impacted by your old behaviors, that you're serious about this personal change. Also, it's been found that both internal and external accountability strengthens goal commitment. So those are the six steps to the embracing discipline of changed behaviors process. And one final word, Allie, it's important not to take on a lot of personal change in one fell swoop. Psychologists suggest that if you have a few behaviors that you want to change, that you take a stepped approach. Trying to change three to four behaviors at once can lead to overwhelm and relapse. Instead, break down changes into smaller, incremental, and achievable steps. Once one behavior is successfully implemented and becomes routine, focus then moves to the next goal.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

That's so true. And actually, I have some interesting stats to back this up that I was just looking at recently. So if you change one behavior at a time, the odds of you maintaining that change a year later is upwards of 80%, which is pretty good. If you try to change two things at a time, the odds of having that change maintained a year later drops to around 35%. And if you try to change three things at a time, the odds that you are still maintaining that behavior a year later is less than 5%. So there's there's research to support what you were just talking about in terms of don't try to eat the elephant. Take it one bite at a time and set yourself up for sustainable change, which is so important.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Now, what's better for you, eating an elephant or eating Brussels sprouts?

SPEAKER_01 26:20

I'll take the Brussels sprouts pretty much any day. But I also want to call out, because I think it's important that people know not to get discouraged when behavior changes in any one area come a little bit more slowly or with more difficulty than you may have anticipated, because it's a crucial insight for long-term success. Behavioral science and psychology consistently show that lasting change is rarely a linear, rapid process. Slow progress is normal. And managing discouragement is actually a key part of that process. We have to prepare ourselves with some resilience to go through some of the challenges that we know we're going to expect when we are dealing with change. Whenever you're struggling, doesn't mean you should stop, you should give up, but view it instead as evidence that growth is happening can be a really helpful reframe. And also it's crucial to be kind to yourself during setbacks, offering the same understanding that you would offer a friend. Patience with this is going to help you stay calm during delays. It's going to help prevent the negative emotional chain of frustration, anger, and despair that can really set you back.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

That's so true. So to recap, self-discipline is the ability to do the right thing in the right way at the right moment, despite any internal or external noise we might be experiencing. It considers how we are actually going to incorporate changes and adjustments to our existing ineffective behaviors. It's the ability to align or adjust our actions, motives, and emotions in a way that says no to our obstacles and replaces ineffective behaviors with disciplined behaviors that strengthen us to achieve goals and outcomes that will lead to effectiveness and success. So, Ali, to close out this episode, we want to make sure that we take a step back and consider the bigger picture of self-management and how everything inside this important concept works together to create a stronger ethos and a more effective leadership presence.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

So we've learned that self-management is the ability to intentionally and proactively create frameworks and guardrails for your thoughts, opinions, words, actions, and behaviors that steer us away from ineffective and damaging behaviors and toward behaviors that align with our values, beliefs, convictions, et cetera, and that create outcomes that produce the greatest level of value. Our human awareness informs us that all of our behaviors are brought on by beliefs, mindsets, and behaviors that have been wired into our brains both genetically and through the living of life of a human being in this world of ours. Some of that wiring results in good, effective, productive behaviors, and some of it yields behaviors that are not so effective. We obviously want to keep the behaviors that are helpful and grow them and do our best to get rid of or eliminate the ineffective behaviors and replace them with better, more effective behaviors. This is especially true for leaders because our lives and the behaviors that are part of our lives have a unique and significant impact on others. How do we do that? Well, remember, earlier in this episode, John made the comment that oftentimes our brain doesn't even offer up an alternative to the old behaviors unless we generate a need, the desire, and a command to counteract those behaviors. Well, we all know now that the need is generated by self-awareness, the desire is generated by self-reflection, and the command is generated by self-discipline, the mechanism to replace the bad or effective behavior with something better.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Yeah, that's right, Ellie. When self-awareness, self-reflection, and self-discipline work together, they cease to be individual skills and instead form a single system. Each one informs the next. And over time, they reinforce one another in a practical loop that shapes how you show up as a leader. Self-awareness is the foundation of the system. It's your ability to notice your emotions, strengths, weaknesses, values, and triggers and to understand how those inner signals shape what you do and how you come across to others. In practice, self-awareness is the moment you recognize your patterns and you connect those patterns to their impact on other people. When you can name what is happening inside of you, you can respond with more authenticity and integrity. And that consistency is a major building block of a trusted ethos. Self-reflection is the bridge between noticing a pattern and choosing what to do about it. It's the deliberate practice of looking back on your thoughts, decisions, and behaviors with enough honesty to learn from them, almost like holding up a mirror to your leadership. Reflection creates the space to ask, did that response match the leader I want to be? When you regularly process experiences this way, you turn daily moments, whether they are wins, mistakes, or tensions, into usable insight. And as we discussed in this episode, self-discipline is the ability to align or adjust our actions, motives, and emotions in a way that says no to our obstacles and replaces ineffective behaviors with disciplined behaviors that strengthen us to achieve goals and outcomes that will lead to effectiveness and success. In short, it's the ability to do the right thing in the right way at the right time, despite any internal or external noise we might be experiencing.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

So if we zoom out a little bit, our ethos is the combined result of these three practices, the reputation you've built over time as authentic, principled, and dependable. When practiced together, this self-awareness plus self-reflection plus self-discipline cycle creates a feedback loop that allows you to rewire your brain for better emotional regulation. And this means you're no longer buffeted by emotions like a ship in rough seas, but rather you're in the driver's seat of your own life, cultivating a reputation for calm, competence, and integrity.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Yeah, that's right. Self-management is the mechanism that takes a person from a reactive state to a proactive state, where you're doing the things necessary to ingrain greater levels of effectiveness into your life. In other words, self-management lays the necessary foundation for us to build ethos maturity into our leadership presence, which is where I'm hoping all of us want to go with our lives, both inside and outside of our leadership role at work. And that's exactly what we're going to be talking about in our next and final episode of season one of the presence podcast. So, Ali, thanks once again for your thoughts and ideas and remind everybody again how they can get in touch with you and your great work at Move Air Coaching.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Absolutely. They can find us online at www.moveaircoaching.com, on LinkedIn, Instagram, and also now on TikTok.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

And thanks once again to all of you for listening and learning along with us. Of course, we are always interested in continuing these discussions with you in person. So please feel free to reach out and connect with us at the Institute for Optimal Leadership Presence at Iolp.net. And be sure to join us next time for the season finale of the Presence Podcast. Until then, take care of yourself and be well.