Episode 10: Finding your footing in fantasy with Dave Lawson

Fantasy writer Dave Lawson shares how inspiration struck him big, how to find your marketing voice, and how he built a support network. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Thank you so much for listening to Paper Girl, a podcast for readers, writers, and creatives. My name is Melody. I'm the host, co-owner of Meadow Market Books and more in Tulsa. And today I am hanging out with one of our authors here at Meadow Market, Dave Lawson.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Hello.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Dave, will you tell us a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 0:21

So I am a Tulsa native. Well, I say that, but no, I actually wasn't born here, so I'm not a Tulsa native. But I grew up in Oklahoma, moved to Tulsa in high school, and have lived here kind of off and on over that time period. I actually have a Masters of Fine Arts and Fiction Writing and was a literary fiction writer for a long time. And then kind of stopped writing for a while. And then I started playing Dungeons and Dragons, got back into sort of creativity, and started writing fantasy novels, and that's where I am now.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

That's so exciting. So the book that you have on our shelves, you have two of them. You have your novel and then a companion novella, The Envoys of War. So was that your first or just the one that you first wanted to market?

SPEAKER_01 1:19

It's my first fantasy book. Um I, like I said, I wrote a bunch of, I went through a bachelor's degree in fiction writing at Oklahoma State. And then I got Masters of Fine Arts at the New School in New York City. And I published some short stories and some lit journals. And I wrote, like I was writing a novel, and it kind of ended up being a novella. I queried that for a while. Um I then like self-published it in like 2017 or something like that. Because I like it was my master's thesis, and I thought, why not put it out in the world? Um but I didn't really do anything with it. And then I kind of didn't write for a while. And then I started playing DD, fell back in love with the whole process, and thought, you know what? I'm gonna write a fantasy novel. So I wrote a fantasy novel. I started it in January of 2024. It absolutely tore through the first draft in like two and a half months.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Nice. That was that's inspo. That's like, I'm in.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

And then um I revised for a little while, sent it out to beta readers, like after probably about three and a half, four months since I'd started the whole thing, got the that feedback, revised again, sent it to an editor, revised again. Um but like I published it in October of 2024, and I started writing it in January of 2024. In a progressive speech. Probably, you know, I should have taken a little bit more time. But um just because like I I read some fantasy books. I love fantasy books, but that's I didn't grow up reading fantasy. I grew up reading a lot of classics, historical fiction, some science fiction, to where one of the things I've gotten from people reading the book is like, oh, this reminds me of this book. I'm like, yeah, I haven't read that. Um this, you know, oh, this you know, this fantasy trope that it's a pretty popular one in classic fantasy. I'm like, I'm oh, I haven't read any of those books. So I'm trying to read more of some of the classic, important fantasy books so that I actually know a little bit more about that stuff. But for me, it's just been so much fun.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

And fantasy books are cool.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

I I dig it. What are you what are you currently working on or just wrapped up?

SPEAKER_01 3:59

So I am writing book two in my series, and I actually am almost done with the first draft. So one thing I'll say writing a sequel, I'd never done that before, um, because everything I'd written before I started writing fantasy books was kind of like standalone short stories, standalone novella. And then now I'm trying to write a sequel. I don't know how to write a sequel. So there's a like it's been a slower process, but I'm getting close to being done with the first draft. I actually made myself not use Instagram for most of my spring break here. I am a teacher and I'm on spring break right now, so I've had a lot of writing um time. And I've written 18,000 words over spring break. Hey, it worked. Um, I'm gonna write 2,000 more today and 2,000 tomorrow and be at 22,000 for the spring break, which is getting me closer to being done with the first draft. And then hopefully I'll have that ready to publish. Probably I mean, I said like I'd love to get it out in December, but it might be early next year, just depending on how things go.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Yeah, after you do that fast and furious one, you're like, all right, now I know that maybe I should like breathe a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

I got so burnt out just like after publishing that first book, trying to then market the book, which marketing's fun. Um, a lot of people I'll say that they hate the marketing side of being an independent author, but I actually love it. Um I have a lot of fun with that part.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Yeah, it feels very vulnerable because you're like, you you wrote a book which is already very vulnerable in itself, like creating art that you want people to consume. I mean, some people I think they write for others to not consume, but like when you when you take the steps to like publish it and order copies and like you're you're kind of like, I just bared my soul on a page. I had something that I made up all up in my brain, and then I put it out, and now I'm gonna ask you to read it. And then there's that second, like almost, it feels a little vain to be like, hey, here's this thing I wrote. I think it's pretty good. You should spend money and spend time reading it. And so I get I get a little bit of it. I come from like a bit of like a marketing and mass com background, and so I think it's easier for me to do that, but I run into a lot of people where marketing is like, they're like, oh my god, but what if people hate my book? And I'm like, I mean, they might. They might. Not everybody likes me, so not everybody's gonna like what I write, and even some people that like me might not like what I write.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

And I think one of the most important things that like new authors or authors who are just kind of getting started and are writing can know is that there are gonna be people who hate your book. You are gonna have a lot of readers who try to read it, put the book down, don't finish it, say, yeah, this isn't for me, I don't like this, um, rate it one star on all the different um like review sites, people who send you a message and say, like, yeah, I didn't, you know, I didn't finish your book because I didn't like it. And not everybody likes every book. Like, if you look at the most popular, famous books out there, the ones with the highest ratings on all of the review sites, there are still a bunch of one-star reviews saying how horrible that book is.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

So I think it's really hard when you're first getting started to think someone's not gonna like my book. But uh, the more you write, the more you kind of you find people who do like your book. It just gets to the point where if one person doesn't like your book, that's their that's okay. Like everyone has different opinions. There are books that I didn't really like that some people, it's like it is their favorite book, and books that I love that other people hate.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

So someone hands you something, and I'm like, I that that happened to me with with a book a friend recommended, and the first third of it I did not like. And I was like, oh man, I'm gonna have to tell my friend I hate this book that like she's tattoos inspired by this book, and I'm gonna have to like, she's gonna ask me, and I'm I can act, but I'm not that good of an actress around my friends telling them I hated this thing they asked me to read. Um, what I really enjoy about your marketing is that it feels very authentic to you, which is the most successful marketing, especially with social media and like the the incoming new adult readers who have really gravitated towards your book, at least here, has been like in that like YA new adult space. They're gravitating, they're looking for something a little bit more mature, but like still in a fantasy realm, and right that that when they are on social media, that's something they value as a very authentic voice and not like millennial, like, ooh, I'm so quirky authentic, but just like when I look at your social media, I'm like, I see exactly who this guy is, and like every impression you've given me when you come into the store, I'm like, that that exactly matches the the person he is in person.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

I think um one of the most important things you can do in your marketing is to one, have fun, and two, be you. The people like you're saying, like the people who try to be someone that they're not, it doesn't really ring true. For me, I'm a dork. I'm a nerd. Um, I directed, like I was the theater director um at two of my previous schools. I'm not actually doing anything with theater at uh my new school just because I needed to take a break and like not have as much on my like after school plate. But like I love acting, I love theater, I'm kind of over the top, and I I love doing just sort of silly stuff. My books have kind of that same vibe of the characters are funny. There's a lot of like wit and snarky comments back and forth between the characters, but the books themselves, there's still a lot of serious stuff going on. Like the world and the events are not super funny, but the characters are. And those are my favorite kind of books where there's funny characters in uh difficult situations. If it's sometimes like if a book is just comedy all the time, I struggle to stay like invested in the story because it's just kind of silliness all the way through. But I also, if it's just uh depressingness the whole book, then I can't um stay focused either.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

It needs to be that levity and that balance dramedy kind of in between is where um I think it's the best.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

And for me, like that's what I write, it's what I like to read, and um I think my marketing, I'm gonna be funny, but I also don't want people thinking this book is like a spoof. Because it's not. Um there's people die, and there's definitely a lot of action and like um depressing moments mixed in with the funny stuff. It's funny that like so many young adult and like or like new adult, as you say, readers have uh been interested in my books. And I had an original cover that the characters looked a little bit younger on the front, and a lot of people thought it was like a YA book. Because my characters are all like in their 30s. But I mean, I think content-wise, it's probably fine. Like, it's like PG 13 levels of language violence, but there's not any like there's no spice, there's no like crazy amounts of like R-rated language or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

But I mean, yeah, the characters are in their 30s, but you know, I'm happy to sell books, so they uh you know, I think it's it's trying to find something that's not like talking down to them too much, but is also like exciting. And I think that there's in that like age range and then having characters that are in their 30s, it really speaks to like trying to grapple with a sense of of what's going on in the world. And I I I think they I they identify, they see older siblings in that, and and they see their their with the younger, younger ones, their parents are grappling with like coming of age. And it really feels like as somebody in their mid-30s, it kind of feels like now I'm really actually coming of age. It's probably the first time in first time period in my adulthood where I've been like, okay, yeah, it does make sense that somebody's trusting me with this responsibility. I am responsible for a child. I have a 10-year-old, like, I am responsible for this person, and like I'm allowed to be responsible for this person, and like um, and so I think them seeing this this age range of people gives them something to like think a little bit more forward to. And so I think that's really neat. So you mix in like a little bit of like your DD fantasy experience and your very theatrical sensibilities. Um, what was that that two-month process of writing the book like?

SPEAKER_01 14:14

So um the the I think the most impressive part about that was I wrote 95,000 words in two months while I was directing Freaky Friday the musical.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

So um every day I taught English all day. Um I was at Wagner High School then, and um taught English all day. And then I had drama was my last hour of the day, and then after school from like 3 to 6:30, 3 to 7, we were rehearsing. So rehearsing the musical, practice like so. Some days we're like practicing the music side of things, some days like choreography, which was never my strong suit, and then other days like working on the acting. But like, yeah, almost every day after school rehearsal, and then I would drive home. I live in Tulsa, so it was about a 45-minute drive. Um, I would often talk into my little um there you go, like my iPhone voice recorder as I was driving home about ideas for what I was gonna write. And then I would get home and listen to that and I'd write a thousand words. Um and then on the weekends, I'd go to Summer Moon Coffee, which is next door to Meadow Market books. Um, and I'd sit there and I'd write 2,000 words on the weekends. And so I was writing basically 10,000 words a week or so, like 9 to 10,000 words a week. And then like spring break in March, I probably did like 20,000 words then, and that's when I finished my draft. But like I started mid-January. And I finished mid-March. And I think I had 91,000 words, and then I spent a good portion of March and early April reading that and like adding on. And I so like when I sent it out to beta readers, I think I had 99,000 words, and then I ended up the book is 107 something because I am an underwriter. In my first draft, I don't describe things because for me, description is hard, dialogue is easy. And partially for me, like I got my start writing plays. Um, when I was in high school, I got second place in the Tulsa Library, like creative writing young writers contest for a play that I wrote, and they performed it at um I don't know if it was Starlight or another local theater. Is there one called Heller Theater?

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Um, so I don't think they have a location, but Heller Theater produces, but I bet that they That's probably what it was.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

It might have been at Starlight. I I don't know, I was a junior in high school, so I don't really remember at this point. But that was a spy spoof play about explosive eggplants.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

That's so fun.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

So, like, I was I wanted to be a playwright. I went to Oklahoma State for college, and I was really kind of thinking I was gonna double major in creative writing and like theater, and they didn't have any playwriting classes, but that was kind of the thing I really wanted to do. I ended up doing just fiction writing because I don't know, just I stopped. I I mean I'd still write play type things, but I don't know, I didn't take very many of the theater classes. And then I went straight from OSU to a master's degree where I wrote more fiction. And like my books are my books are still dialogue heavy. Um all of my stories were dialogue heavy because dialogue is fun, dialogue is what I love writing the most.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Because the theater is very dialogue-driven. Um, and and often you're working with limited set capabilities, and you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

And one of the things that's like is the most important for me is making the dialogue feel real.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Feel like real people. And a lot of the great reviews that I've gotten, they haven't liked everything about my book because, like I said, nobody likes everything, and that's okay. But I've gotten so many different pieces of feedback about how the dialogue felt natural. The characters felt like real people with like how they how they interact with each other. They're not perfect. They're also not all, they're not horrible. Like there might be a few relatively evil type villains, but in general, most people are kind of a mixture of good, not as good. Like, even the best people are not perfect. And sometimes in books, whenever you have like the heroic person who's never done anything wrong before, it gets a little, you know, meh. I've been reading Aquatar recently.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

I guess this yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

And you were talking um about how your friend had given you a book and you didn't love the first part. It was was it?

SPEAKER_00 19:44

It was Avatar.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Oh my god. So the first part of Avatar is so bad. It's so bad. And the second half of the book gets better. The first book, I think I gave it three stars. It was okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Yeah, it was definitely I I tell people this when when we get into discussions about Sarah J. Moss books, and I've read all three of her current like series, and I I really feel like she needs an editor to say, all right, great job writing the first book in the series. Let's condense it and put it on as like the opening chapters to the second book.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

I feel yeah, and I like this that was my first Sarah J. Mass book, and I read it two weeks ago. Um and then I I've already I've read the second book in the series now to kind of binge that um the end of last week and the start of spring break here. And the second book was better. I definitely think that Rhysand is an example of one of those characters who's supposed to be morally gray, but at the heart of it, he is always kind of heroic and good.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

It's just like a like a it's m I feel like people define things as morally gray, and it's like this person breaks rules, but then that's it's uh it's like that black and white thinking of like you have to follow the rules to always be good, even if the rules are unjust. And I don't think it's morally gray to break rules and break laws if those rules and laws are unjust.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

And like everyone, we're all morally gray. If you talk, think about like people do things that are not perfectly moral, and that's just natural. And I think sometimes in books, when they talk morally gray, it's supposed to be like they do horrible things, but also they're the like the main character that we're supposed to root for, like, or they're the love interest. Um second book was so much better than the first book. Um but it's kind of one of those things where like I read that first book thinking, how did this series get so popular with this first book? Like, and I guess she already had some other books that. Out and was a well-known person. I also read Red Rising this week, and that's another one that is huge on Bookstagram, Book Talk. It's like the quintessential book bro book. And I read it, and it's another one where I feel like it was not bad. But it's another one where all of the rest of the books in the series people talk about how good they become. And it's you see that a lot. And so it makes me feel better knowing, like, yeah, my first novel, I love it. I think it's fun. I've gotten a lot of good feedback. Is it perfect? Probably not. It's also the first fantasy book I ever wrote. I think that's like the debuts.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

That's how they go. And I think that's the beautiful thing about art. And uh, I've been having a lot of conversations about this, like, especially with like the rise of generative AI. And um, and like this this conversation of like you have to be like a little bit not good. There's you have to, if you if you want to do art, you have to be okay with the fact that not everybody is gonna love everything that you do, and that the first thing that you make you're gonna be really, really proud of, but it's not going to land with 100% love. And like that's part of the beauty of it, and that's also part of why I my ratings on Goodreads, I think I've got like a 4.75 average on what I read. And I have read some, I've read some very challenging books in a it's hard to get through this. I don't, I I can't think of the last book I DNF'd because I give everything a shot. I also write book reviews, and so like I have to read some of them because like I don't get paid if I don't write the review and I can't review it if I didn't read it. Um, but I'm very generous with my ratings because I'm like, at the end of the day, you sat down and you had a story on your mind and on your heart, and you put that on the page, and you took the time to do that, and like you you get so much credit for that in my in my eyes, like taking the time to share that story. And you gotta, you gotta write that one in order to get to the next one and learn the lessons that you learn in a debut novel from the writing process to to then push it forward. And if you move genres, like that's going to be different too. And then especially like not being a reader of that genre, like I wrote a historical fiction. I have I read a ton of historical fiction as a kid, and then I move I've been like a primarily romance reader for the last like 10 years because I just like need something to calm my nervous system, and so when I wrote a historical fiction, I was like, this isn't all very like you know, it it's a little bit less informed about historical fiction because that's not a format, uh a genre that I've been working with very much lately. And so, like going back and starting to read historical again, I'm like, oh, okay, I see where I could have done my book better. And so next time I write a historical fiction, I'm gonna feel good about it.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

And like and I think like I love I grew up reading a lot of historical fiction, and partially historical fiction, the ones that I read were a lot of the kind of historical adventure type books, which are like fantasy books without magic.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Um, fantasy books set in like the French Revolution without magic, or to where, like, in ex in a way they're very similar, they just don't have some of those magic-based um elements or some of the fantasy tropes. But I read a lot of those. I started reading, like I'd read fantasy books before, obviously, but I started playing DD in 2021 and started reading fantasy books again, probably in like 2021, 2022. So I'd read some great fantasy books by the time I started writing, but I didn't have that like 15 years worth of I've read all of the famous books in this genre. Like, I have not ever read Game of Thrones. I've read a few other books by George R.R. Martin, but Game of Thrones is really long and very grim and not really my thing. Um, there are some other series, like I've read Tolkien, obviously. Um, there are some other famous fantasy series that I never read just because they didn't really seem like something that I was going to enjoy. And Wheel of Time, I've read the first book, but it's 14 books long, and that's so many books, and I don't have a good enough attention span to read those.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

That's fair.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

So, like, in a way, there are so many books out there that it's impossible to read everything that other people have read or that they think you should read as well, to where you have to just kind of pick the ones that sound fun and sort of push the other ones out there.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Exactly. Take what's for you and leave the rest and and let it be. And I think that like, you know, just the way that generative AI steals from other ideas and all that, i the human brain, like when we're consuming these stories, like we are carrying those tropes and and little bits and pieces of each of these stories in when we write. Um, and I think that what's fun about a human writing a story with that kind of background is that two people could have the same exact book idea, right? The same premise, like a good two lines, and then because of their backgrounds, write two completely different books. And what I'll say is like I released Clever Clever Woman, which is about Will Shakespeare and his wife, right? Um, and uh the theory that women wrote a bunch of Shakespeare's plays. At the same time that I released that, Jodie Picolt released by any other name, which is also about women writing Shakespeare's plays. Right. But Jodie Picolt and I have two very different backgrounds, different ideas, different concepts. And so women wrote Shakespeare's plays, that our books are both about that, two incredibly different books. It's almost like we're not even talking about the same idea at that point, like, which is super fun. And like when you take the time to write a book and do your background and come at it with your life, you're gonna create something that is so very uniquely Dave.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

And my books are very me. Like um, if you've met me, the sense of humor my characters have is very similar to the sense of humor I have. Um they're very sort of snarky, and um there's someone um called it mean humor because they're often mean to each other, but in like sometimes in kind of like a loving way, but they're mean to each other a lot. They know each other and they can rib and they know friends are often kind of mean to each other in a loving way, and so my two main characters, it's um I'm very much um a fan of platonic male-female relationships in books. So my two main characters, Jen and Corden, are best friends. There is absolutely no romantic um storyline between the two of them. Corden does have a romantic side uh plot with a woman they meet on the road, but our two main characters are friends, and that's kind of just who they are, and they have this great kind of back and forth um exasperation and bickering, but also their best friends who care a lot about each other. And then Jen is um aromantic, asexual, so she has no interest in romance, um, any kind of sexual relationships, just kind of she's happy enough to have friends, her sword, and any cool animals she meets along the way.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

Heck yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

And so I just I kind of wanted to write a book that was not male main character, female main character, enemies to lovers, and they're lovers by the end, because um I love romance, and I always will have like a romantic subplot in my books, but I feel like sometimes there is kind of that you put a guy and a girl together in a book, and if they're on the page together enough, they're supposed to be romantically involved. And it doesn't always work that way. People can be friends. So I wanted to kind of explore that um and write something that wasn't just a um male main character, female main character are lovers by the end of the book type thing. Um which I've gotten a few reviews that have people were like, I wish that they were in love, and I was like, that's not the point. But you know, everyone's able to have their own.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

You know what? They are they are in love in the way that I am in love with my friends, but I don't want to kiss them. I love being around them. I could spend hours and hours and days with them. I don't want to kiss them, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

Yeah, and I think um it's good to have those kind of relationships in books because you don't see them all that much.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

You see a lot of romantic relationships and not that many sort of platonic friendships. And I wanted to write something that was not a um the main characters are romantically involved type story. I am writing uh another story um that is a little bit more of a, I call it a fantasy adventure romantic comedy, um with some vibes that come from my wife and I. So the female main character has some of her um vibes. She's very snarky and she loves tea, and she's difficult to deal with and stubborn. Um I say that with love. And then the male main character has very much me vibes. But um that's something I'm writing that I'm hoping to put out sometime next year. But that one is called A Perfectly Decent Kidnapping.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Fun!

SPEAKER_01 32:47

And it's basically a story where the guy um comes upon a plot and finds out that this girl is going to be like killed because she's seen um something she wasn't supposed to see. However, she doesn't know anything about this, and so he like takes her away from the city where she lives, and he's like trying to save her, and she's like, You're kidnapping me. Get away from me. And so there's this kind of um back and forth of he's trying to help her, and she thinks of him as just like this horrible scoundrel who has kidnapped her and taken her away from her home, and she doesn't believe his whole story. Um, of course, over time she's gonna have to start believing it. But I've been having fun writing that. Um, I grew up like in college, I studied film also at OSU. I did creative writing, English, and film. And I really love the screwball comedies from the 1930s, 40s, and 50s. So my books have that kind of quick back and forth dialogue, like those movies. And then this one here, I'm sort of taking some of those fun plot vibes and tropes from some of those great early movies. And if you have you seen the Gilmore Girls, I assume.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

So Gilmore Girls um is very like the writers of that were incredibly influenced by the screwball comedy of the 30s, 40s, and 50s, to where people listening to this, if you've um love if you love Gilmore Girls, you should watch more old black and white movies from the 30s, 40s, and 50s, because that is where all of those very quick back and forth talking vibes come.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Yeah, if you're looking for good banter, you don't need to go, you don't have to dig in the depths of modern comedy. You can just go directly to the 30s.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

It happened one night. Um my my book that I'm writing, the original first title was It Happened One Fortnight. Um, because It Happened One Night is one of my favorite movies. Um so kind of that vibe of road trip with two um people who are just so completely exasperated by each other. Um it's not so much enemies to lovers as like exasperated bickers to lovers, which I like better than like she tried to kill him and he wants to kill her, but now they're lovers. Kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

And instead, very much like, oh, just two people that seem like they can't, they'll never see eye to eye.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

And then that's what all those great screen wall comedies had. And I love that trope of they hate each other, and he's like, he's the he's the most the most despicable of men, and she's like, and he's like, oh, I'd never I can't stand her, I don't ever want to see her, and then by the end they're in love. Um I can't wait to read this. My mom, um, huge Jane Austen fan. So growing up, we watched all of the different uh Jane Austen versions. Like so the BBC Pride and Prejudice with Colin Firth from the 90s. I feel like we watch that about every year. And if you haven't seen that one people listening, you've only seen the movie with Kirad Knightley that came out later.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

No, you gotta see the BBC. That's like ever. Excellent dating advice, too, for guys like if you want to understand, like especially like a bookish, soft, romantic girly, you have to watch the BBC Pride and Prejudice.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

And the dialogue is some of the best dialogue you'll have. And Austin wrote amazing dialogue. Obviously, she doesn't have that much dialogue in her books if you read them, but the lines she has are bangers.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Intentional and like precise.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

So like she's definitely an influence on me and like kind of the way my characters talk to each other, because they do have that kind of um regency, snarky banter back and forth because I love it.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

Because it's good banter. It's good inspo. I love that. You uh just it's so fun digging into like the process a little bit. And I want to shift a little bit into like the social aspect of being a writer. And so you you really came into writing fiction in college. What was that like? Like having that kind of writing community and support.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

So um it's really interesting because if you ever want to just have everything you write ripped to shreds, take college creative writing classes. Um I will say, like, there were stories I wrote where I had great professors and professors who really were like, here's what's working, here's what you should work on, and really gave a lot of great advice. I can't say that there were too many times where I actually got good feedback from the other students in the class because the biggest thing that kids were doing was kind of showing, they'd just be like, Well, this didn't make sense and this didn't work, and that character wouldn't do that. Um, and it just it wasn't really super helpful, like in the workshops themselves. However, outside of the workshops, the community of just like all of these other people who were also studying writing, they had there's a little coffee shop off on the strip at OSU that closed down after I moved away, but they would do um poetry readings and fiction readings, and so we'd go and we'd read at those, and um so I would say like the actual workshop classes were great because of the professors, but like the feedback from the other students was not really very um helpful, but it actually teaches you that you're gonna get so much feedback from so many people, and you can't take every piece of feedback because there's gonna be people who don't write the same way as you or don't understand where you what you're doing, and they come from a different viewpoint, and they're gonna want things to be you to write things their way. And so you kind of learn like you're cool, but I don't really think I'm gonna listen to your advice. I'll focus these people that feel like they understand this concept more, or maybe they write similar type things and they know a little bit more about like what I'm trying to do here. When I went to my MFA program, that was fantastic. And like, yes, there were still people who ripped everything you wrote to shreds. Um but one of the most important things there, obviously, living in New York was cool.

SPEAKER_02 40:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

But like all of the friends I met there and the people that were also writing at that same time, and all the stuff we did outside of classes, and that really was the most important part. So I'm I mean, I'm a teacher, so this is gonna sound bad, but a lot of times you do learn more, especially with creative things, um, outside of like set classes.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

But it's actually really good to have them too, because the one of the big things you're getting in those programs is learning how to receive feedback, learning how to process feedback. Because if you're a writer and you send off your work to an editor for the first time, because um if you're an independent author, you really should send off your work to an editor. There are lots of editors out there, there are some that are not gonna be super expensive, like there's editors for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

There's editors there's editors in Tulsa for every budget, like it just Please use an editor.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Um you can tell when people don't, and um just please use an editor. But if you send it off to an editor who has a totally different view on things than you or a different mindset, you're not gonna get the like the edit you want. So like if I send my fantasy book to an editor who only focuses on like like legal thrillers, I'm not gonna get like their their like I'm trying to think of how do I say this, their feedback, some of it's still gonna be great because they know what they're talking about, they might have some really good like line-by-line feedback. But in terms of like the genre and kind of what the expectations are, they're probably not the best fit. So you wanna really try to find someone who you're gonna like their feedback style and they know something about your genre or what you're trying to do.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

And that's the incredible advice about grabbing edits and then like a reminder that like you most editors, especially editors worth their with their worth their money, are gonna give you like five, ten pages of free editing as a sample because you want to make sure that it's a good fit. Because if you like spend all this money on an editor that you didn't vet and like take advantage of those samples and really take a look at what their feedback looked like, then you spend all this money getting an edit, and then you're like, I this person didn't understand my book, they don't understand my voice, we don't vibe, and then you're out that money, and it's like, what do you do? You either like take all their edits and be like, well, I paid for this, so I guess I'll work this way. Or you have to go back and drop more money on an edit. And so, like, find an editor, take advantage of those sample edits, really find somebody that's going to work well with you.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

And like any editor who does not offer a sample edit for line or copy editing, runaway.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

Far far.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

If it's something like developmental editing, it is harder to do a sample edit of a developmental edit on like the first 1,000 words of your manuscript because they're looking at more of the like the widespread issues as a whole and like the entire story. It's harder to do a sample edit for something like that. Some will still do it. Um, and take advantage of those. Also, if you know other writers and you know the odd the editors that they have had good experiences with, that's another way to find good people. But use those sample edits. Make sure that they are not trying to change your voice. Um and also one of the most important things, you do not have to take every single piece of feedback that an editor provides because they're giving you their thoughts. But if it is your book, you can say, I'm gonna leave this. Now, what you don't want to do is like all of your the editors or your beta readers, everyone saying, This doesn't work. This isn't working, you should fix this, and you're like, no, that's the story. And then you publish it, and the readers are like, this doesn't work.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

You're like, oh, there's a pattern of people not binding within.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

If one person says, I didn't like this, they might be right. It might just be their personal opinion. But take feedback. Remember that those people are not trying to hurt your feelings, they're trying to make your book better. And it's hard, especially when you first get started, if you haven't done a lot of like workshops or um even like manuscript squap squaps, manuscript swap swaps, I can speak, um, critique swaps. If you haven't done those kind of things, it can be hard when you first get that feedback and someone isn't just glowing about how wonderful your book is, but it's a good thing to learn. And so if you can find, I don't know if Tulsa has this because I really haven't gotten that involved in like the Tulsa local Tulsa scene, but I've done a lot of like the online indie author community. But there are a lot of places where you can critique swap with other people and like send your first ten chapters and they send theirs and you read each other's chapters and provide advice. And it's a good way of getting some information. It is not always gonna be everything that they say is right, but it's a good way to get kind of an idea of like this is how it feels to receive feedback, and it's gonna help you long term. Because if you don't know how to receive feedback, and the first time you get that is from like people reviewing your book or something, it's gonna be a lot harder than if it's someone just um that you ask, check out these chapters and tell me what you think. And they're like, I didn't like this. I um don't think this book is for me. I'm gonna move on. You're like, all right, thank you. Find the next person. If everyone saying that to you, maybe you need to rework some things, but there's gonna be people who don't like your book. One of my and I'm talking a lot, I know.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

No, this is this is her time.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

Like, whenever I was, uh I sent my first book out to beta readers, and the first one to respond back um was a traditionally published fantasy author, and he ripped my first three chapters to shreds and said, Yeah, I'm done. And I was like, Oh my god. Like, I I done all of these creative writing classes and I was used to it, but then this was my first fantasy novel, and I was very vulnerable again, and I was just like, oh my god, this is the worst book ever. I suck, my book sucks, everything sucks. And then my other beta readers and people, like some of these people, I did not know beyond like I'd interacted with them a few times online and they were reading my book. I got all sorts of good feedback of like, yeah, this part doesn't work super well, and you should fix this, but I love this. And just if I had just taken the first feedback I got, I don't know what I would have done. I don't know if I would have, you know, published. Give up and but I got lots of other feedback, and then I took that and I revised and revised and revised to get the book where I wanted it to be. And so don't give up if you get negative feedback, but also don't ignore all negative feedback. It's bad to just publish something that no one's ever read before, or that they that you've gotten a lot of kind of lukewarm feedback on, and just publish it and say, Oh, we'll see what happens. Because you want to try to make it the best possible thing you can, especially if you're asking people to spend money on it.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

I love that. So not a lot in the like feedback circles, but you are connected to like Tulsa writing groups and stuff, because that's how you met Maya, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:22

No. No. Um I'll tell the story of how Maya and I met, actually, which is kind of funny. Um but last but before I get to that, last year the Magic City Book Bash was the first Tulsa event I did. And then I did Tulsa Witfest. And through those, I met um Gabrielle. Her name, she got her, she writes under Gigi Shu, like cozy fantasy, and she actually knows my wife. So I met her, and then I met a few other people at some of those events, and I met Sam Ryan at one of those events.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Another Sam Ryan mention.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

Um, I mean, she's great. I met her at one of those events and like followed some of them online. But I've never been to any other Tulsa Writer events. I never I I tend to see them after they've already announced like the like they had the one at Spotlight Theater that I didn't know about until the week before. There's one at Neff Brewing here in a few weeks that I didn't know about until it like.

SPEAKER_02 50:32

They've already closed up the submissions.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

And like it's fine because I actually have a book signing at a bookstore in Muskogee that same day that I'd already set up. But yeah, I'm not super connected to the Tulsa scene. But I met Maya um on the Twitter, Instagram, indie author feed out there, and we both were starting to publish around the same time. Her first book she published right here, Anxious as a star, Ancient as the Stars. Um she published it around the same time as mine. And I was posting on Twitter that I was going to, and I said I was in Tulsa. Uh, I don't think I knew she was in at Neff once and like had a little Tulsa writers group. Just and then after that, um I saw her at the Magic City. I think I sent her that, like, hey, this is happening. So usually we'll kind of try to, if we see something happening in Tulsa, send it to the other one so that we kind of know there are these events are happening that are, you know, we can try to sign up for. But um, so like I told her about Meadow Market existing here, and she lives down the street, so she walked over. But it's it's good to have a few people locally that I kind of know, but in general, I haven't met too many local Tulsa people yet. I did a book signing at Gardner's, um and I'm doing the book signing at Bears Books and Muscogee here in April. I'm going to Tulsa Litfest, but like it's kind of a I know lots of people on the worldwide indie scene, but the Tulsa scene, I don't know that many people yet. And I only moved back to Tulsa in 2021. I lived in Kansas for 14 years.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

And Tulsa, like, we we took our time kind of really waking up after the bulk of the pandemic. And so, like, it's been a challenge. And then like finding niches, um, talking to Brutus and Dolly at Siam about oh, excuse me, about like when Brutus got to Tulsa, um like trying to find a writing group, and was like, Is there a writing group at Witty Books? Which is like a place where you would expect the like a real hub for writers because that was always their big thing, was like supporting the local writing scene. And then they were like, uh no, there's not really any any writing groups. And then Dolly coming in a couple weeks later and being like, Is there a writing group? And then making one because So I don't know what Cyan is. Oh, Cyan, something involving a mailbox. They are a zine and micropressed, and they do the second Saturday of every month, they do these like create creativity workshops and they like bring people in to like talk about all kinds of like that's in the creative spot. Um, but Dolly uh created the witty writers group, uh, which is where she and Brutus met, and like the pandemic destroyed writing community. And so like they've got like little groups that have been like traveled in from Oklahoma City, and then they kind of pop up little satellite, but and then you have things like Saturday Scribe and Shut Up and Write, so all of these like little spots, but they don't get like a lot of attention. Yeah, I've never heard of it first. Yeah, so it is that's I need to bring a bulletin board in here and like start putting that that stuff on there because I'm like people come in and they're like, oh, I have this writing group. I have this writing group. Oh, we meet once a month, we're here every other week, we're here this week, and I'm like, I'm like, how do how are we finding each other?

SPEAKER_01 54:37

And how come we're not like more connected and like I know Witty Books was one that I was planning to um like go in and see if I could like if they would do a book signing or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

And I think they closed before January of 25.

SPEAKER_01 54:56

I guess my book had been out for about four months, but I was just still like I don't think I hadn't actually gone into a bookstore and done the scary thing of talking to the people.

SPEAKER_00 55:06

It is a scary thing. I think I think one of your was it your wife or one of your friends that was kind of like she had to like shoot toward me.

SPEAKER_01 55:12

Yeah, I was scared it was scary. Um so my wife's best friend Amanda um had told us there was a new little bookstore opening. And I was like, yeah, that sounds cool. You know, I'd like to go see the new little bookstore. And um, maybe one day they could they'd be interested in carrying my books. And Caitlin, my wife, was like, why don't you bring the books? I was like, why would I do that? That's scary. She's like, we can bring them and just leave them in the car. And so I came in, she made me do the scary thing and talked to Melody and got my books on the shelf. And then I think the next week I went to Rivendell and did the scary thing again. Yeah. Once you do it once, you're like, all right. We've gotten to Barnes and Noble. That they were actually the first bookstore I went to and talked to. And they give you an email address and you send an email to the email address and then you never get a response. And then you go back in and like, yeah, just send it to that email address. You send it to them again, and then you never get a response. So Barnes and Noble.

SPEAKER_00 56:11

Yeah, you know, it's a it's a uh a trip. I I published my novella through Barnes and Noble Press, and like people are like, oh, I'm doing a signing at Barnes Noble and they carry my book. And I'm like, I'm just happy that it's on the Barnes and Noble website. I think that's super neat.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

Mine is on the Barnes and Noble website because I did it through Ingram and KDP. Yes. Um I bought all my own ISBNs and everything.

SPEAKER_00 56:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:37

Did it that way so that the books would be available like um on other sites besides Amazon.

SPEAKER_00 56:45

Yeah. That's the trick of the KU. KU can be so awesome. I'm on KU for ebooks, but but if you but if you can expand it into and like make it more available, then like that's just more people be able to read your book.

SPEAKER_01 57:00

And one thing I did not too long ago was there's a uh British bookstore called The Broken Binding that does a lot of like fantasy special editions. But you can also like they will offer your books through their website if you like so I contacted them last year.

SPEAKER_02 57:18

Oh fine.

SPEAKER_01 57:19

And I was like, Yeah, we'll do that. And they were supposed to send me some like um whatever they're called, book plates to sign back. And they never sent them, and so I'm like, oh, sorry, and they sent them and I got them signed, and I finally now can offer like signed bookplate editions that are gonna be cheaper shipping-wise to people in like the UK and Europe. Because I I sell signed books through my website, and um like I get a decent amount of orders from US-based people, and every now and then some kind soul orders one um worldwide, but like shipping outside of the country isn't like a book, it's like$22 to ship it to the UK, which it shouldn't be that much, but it is, and so like it's hard to really like it's hard to buy direct sometimes whenever the people live in other countries, because um like the shipping's more expensive than the book. So it's all about making things accessible.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

Yes, that's what we want.

SPEAKER_01 58:33

I'd say even though I have my books on KU.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

You know, it that it makes them accessible. And and for for my all the criticisms that that uh people in our sphere have for Amazon and for Kate KU and like At the end of the day, it's they've made it very accessible for people to share their work. They've made it very easy for people to at a low cost find trying to yeah, and that's there's a there's a lot to be said for that to making to making that easier. And so then it's just about making it less where Amazon can take things from you.

SPEAKER_01 59:12

Um like I I'm not a huge fan of Amazon, but at the same time, like having the book on KU Kindle Unlimited makes it to where someone can try the first few chapters, see if they like the book, um, read the rest of it if they want to. And yeah, otherwise they might have to purchase the book. But there's gonna be a lot more people who are just like, nah, I don't want to spend the$4 on that. Where it's like, I'll download it and see. It's free. It doesn't cost me anything extra. And they might love the book. And so it does make it more accessible. Um, I know some people who are not on KU and sell through all of the different um ebook websites, and I know it can get a little bit like much trying to keep track of the 12 different places that they have their books for sale.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:10

Um KU it makes it easy. So is it perfect? No, but it's easy.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

Well, I'm gonna wrap it up with uh the question that I wrap every episode with, which is um in your time writing and and sharing stories, what has been something that has been like particularly surprising or interesting to you about being a writer and engaging with this community?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

Okay, let's see. I gotta think about this for a second.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:40

It's a meaty question.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

My first reaction is to make a joke.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:45

Do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:47

I would say I'm gonna answer with two things because that's what I always do. When someone asks me a question, I say, like, well, I can't think of one, but here are two. Um I think one of the first things has just been like when I started writing as to where the books got to, the characters that did not exist and weren't part of the book. And then I was writing and writing and writing, and I was like, eh, I'll add this character in here. And so like I have a character in my first book that I added. He first shows up in like 60% of the way through the book, and he was the fan favorite. So I wrote the novella about him 12 years previously, and everyone was like, Yes! Cork! His name is Cork, and it's like that was so surprising to me because I just kind of added him in on a whim as I was writing, and um, he ended up being like the fan favorite character. So that was really something that was surprising to me. Um, and then on a more community side of things, something that was surprising was I think I was surprised, but just how many people um want to support independent authors who are writing and putting their stories out there and are not just being published by the same five big traditional publishers. Like there are so many people who want to support independent authors. And I don't think I knew that existed before like 2024, midway through the year, when I decided to join social media, um, book social media because I mean you don't hear about independent authors just in daily life a lot of times, unless you write books or know people who write books. But there are so many people out there who want to support you, and that's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:43

I love that. And it it's you you venture into Bookstagram or Book Twitter, book talk, and then suddenly there's like these people that like that's their whole thing they love to do is just read an independent author. And like I running the bookstore, I see people they open the door, they're like, I heard that you carry independently published authors. I'm like, Yes. And then they beeline for the shelves and they're like delighted, and then they're giving me recommendations on people that they've run into that they love their books, and like when I was at Gardner's doing my book signing, um, a girl who's probably in college age came up and she said, I've seen you on TikTok. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:23

I have a TikTok, I don't really post there because I never really like I Instagram is much more my speed, but every now and then I post kind of the same thing on TikTok as well. But it was cool, like I I get like three 300 views on those TikToks, and some person like she's like, I've seen you on TikTok, I know your book. Um I have it on um, I have it downloaded on Kindle Unlimited.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:50

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:51

It's like wow, this is actually like people are seeing this stuff. I it's not just me.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:57

It's not like a hallucinated number. Like it's this is a a real concrete interaction, a connection that was made. That's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:04

So that was kind of fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:06

I love that. Well, Dave, I really, really appreciate you coming and hanging out and talking about books. I I just am thrilled. I think you were one of the first couple people that came up and and asked to carry their stuff here, and so and I'm glad that it broke the seal, and now you're like reaching out and and booking extra signings, and that's really cool. And so, book two in your Envoys of War series, hopefully coming out end of the year.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:33

End of the year, early next year, and then my standalone romantic fantasy adventure sometime later next year. I'm gonna do a Kickstarter with that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:44

Because some of my friends are doing Kickstarters right now and um just love the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:49

It's hot right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

You can get a lot of notice and a lot of um people into those special editions and all of the art and everything. So I'm gonna do that one with a Kickstarter.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:02

Well, as soon as that's up, you you send it our way, and they'll be able to find it on the website and on the Instagram.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:09

Yes. I've written like 4,000 words of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:11

You got it. I love it. And thank you so much for listening to Paper Girl Podcast. Our next guest is going to be Ivan Christians, who wrote this incredible um romanticy that's like if Daenerys got a better ending in Game of Thrones, but like I I just I've been thinking about this book a lot. So I'm really excited to be like popping back into fantasy when I finish my reviews and my uh most recent book club pick, you're next on my reading list.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:41

So I have an audiobook.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:43

Yay! Excellent. I'm gonna have to get onto that. But thank you again for listening to Paper Girl, and uh we'll chat with you later.