Paper Girl
A podcast for readers, writers and creators! Melodie Coulter, Tulsa-based reader, writer, creator and bookseller sits down with a variety of incredible people from the Tulsa and Oklahoma literary communities.
Melodie Coulter came to Tulsa in 2015 as a journalist, became a librarian, and now owns Meadow Market Books on Cherry Street with her husband, Jared Coulter. Paper Girl is recorded in the store, surrounded by a mix of bestsellers, previously loved books, and a growing collection of local authors.
This podcast is really just an excuse for Melodie to yap about books with people she's admired for a long time. If you'd like to be a guest, contact us at MeadowMarketBooks.com
Paper Girl
The mother of dragons gets her redemption with Iman Christians
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SPOILERS 49:02-59:12
Ahead of releasing the sequel to her smash-hit romantasy "Dragon Blind", Iman Christians shares how she took Daenerys Targaryen's botched ending and turned it into a rich, gripping world with dragons as main characters.
Thank you so much for listening to Paper Girl, the podcast for creatives all over Tulsa. My name is Melody. I'm the host. I'm the co-owner of Meadow Market Books and More in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And today, finally, after actual months and months and months of us trying to get the stars to align, I have with me author of Dragon Blind and forthcoming Dragon Bride, Iman Christians. Thank you so much for coming on.
SPEAKER_00Hi, glad I'm I'm here finally. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And like just before the storm of a new release, too.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. Super exciting. So at the end of the month, yes.
SPEAKER_01So uh why don't we walk listeners through if they haven't been one of the dozens of people I've convinced to pick up Dragonblind? Uh tell us a little bit about Dragonblind um and your process uh with the light bear series.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So uh Dragonblind was really inspired by my love for Game of Thrones. I loved Daenerys Targaryen, but I hated the way that the series ended with her. I just felt like it was very unfair. And so that got me thinking about how I would have rewritten Daenerys, and that is how the Light Bearer series in Dragonblind came to be. So Dragonblind is about a blind princess. She's cast out from our family. Um, if you were not um in warrior shape, they say, um, then you are cast out of their society, even though she's a princess in royalty. So she um actually flourishes in being an outcast, she learns that she um can connect with dragons, and um, from there she gets three dragon eggs, she's got them to safety. Um, but I would say this book is mostly about a person figuring out uh that she's enough and that she doesn't have to change herself to be loved.
SPEAKER_01I love that. Um so a thousand questions, and I really wanted to dig into your brain um from the jump, but now especially like I just for about 45 minutes before we met up, I finished my advanced copy of Dragon Bride. So now I have a million more questions. Yes. Um I've been billing Dragonblind is the best book I've read in 2026. And now it's really a tie. I just genuinely have enjoyed this so much. Um but I thinking back onto the very beginning of Dragonblind, um, we get to see Princess Asha in her element down with the dragons. Um do you have like a thought of like how that time period went? Because we get little snippets of her dime of her target in the dragon pits, but we don't really get like a full picture of that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, just little snapshots on how she um how basically they helped raise her and that they take care of each other and form kinship with each other, which is interesting because she doesn't have that kinship with her own family. They aren't supposed to be talking to her. She has a brother that occasionally does, quasi who talks to her, but the others really just ignore her. Her mother dies at an early age, and so it's just her and the dragons. And the others in the dragon pits really ignore her because they know she's royalty, and so they want nothing to do with her either. So um, these are the first relationships that she has, and it really does carry through into the found family she gets as she journeys with those dragon eggs.
SPEAKER_01So Asha is is blind, and she's blinded by an injury, um, or so we think, um, as a as a young child. And one of the things that really like blew my mind about Dragon Blind was I was maybe halfway through the book, maybe even like 75%, before I kind of like braced myself. I guess it would have would have been um the moment where she does gain sight. And I realized that for most of the book I had only been given her world through other senses and then visual descriptions in dialogue. Talk to me about writing a story rooted in a disability.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So I really wanted to showcase it as a strength, and that's how I wrote it. Um, but me not being blind, not being from the blind community, I had to do a lot of research. Um, so I joined Blind to Talk. I started reading up on other books that had blind characters, which there are really not that many. Um and then I would reread the things I wrote and try to experience it as a blind person. Um, and there's just so many things that we take for granted uh that a blind person has to navigate um when they're moving throughout the world. And so it was that was a challenge trying to figure out how do I get her from point A to point B. And that's why there are two characters that you see the world through. And that's part of the reason why I added that second character because there's just certain things for the reader's point of view that would be helpful for them to be able to see. Um, but it's but it's interesting when I talk to readers, what they really love is experiencing the world through Ash's point of view.
SPEAKER_01It's it's incredibly immersive. Um, what was the decision to have that be like an indicator? I'm trying not to do spoilers, but I think I'm just gonna have to put a giant spoiler alert on this because if you haven't read Dragonblind, you're already behind.
SPEAKER_02Oh yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Um but from here on out, I'm gonna speak pretty candidly about Dragonblind. I will approach Dragonbride with as few spoilers as possible until we get like closer to the end, and then I can like warn out. Um, but so spoilers. So pick up Dragonblind if you haven't, and then return to this point in the episode. But um how did you like what was the process on deciding if like that blindness would be the indicator that somebody might be bonded with a dragon?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I first got the idea, and I'm blanking on the character's name from Game of Thrones, but it's the younger sister, Arya, I think is the name. Yeah. And uh she is blind at one point. It's actually given to her as a punishment, but I was thinking, what a gift to experience the world and to hone her craft as a blind person, and that's what got her to take out the assassin that was coming after her. Well, she was able to kind of recreate this blindness that she can navigate that this assassin couldn't. And I was like, okay, so what if we approach this blindness as a strength? And that is how um the the idea came to be. How do we um make this a strength and something that um connects her to the dragons? So uh she bonds with the dragons and is able to see the world basically through their eyes. I love this.
SPEAKER_01Um I'm also thinking a lot about the parallels in in in both books to like popular larger fiction, like like Fourth Wing, because this is very much, and if you've if you've read and you've watched Game of Thrones, then you definitely see the parallels to Daenerys. But there are also a lot of parallels to Fourth Wing, in the especially in the way like the magic systems work. Yes. Um, and so uh where's the the timeline on your exposure to Fourth Wing?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I was on the band lag and with everyone else. I stopped reading for a long time, uh, probably just to get myself through grad school. And then everybody was talking about fourth wing. I was like, okay, I used to read, and I loved it. And I thought, what a cool way to interact with dragons to make them main characters. Because a lot of times dragons are side characters, and I wanted mine to be main characters, so that is um, I would say, the common thread to Fourth Wing. Um, I also loved, I mean, everybody loves the relationship between Zaidan and Violet too. Um, so I knew I wanted um the romance part to really run strong. Um, but yeah, I I I say the strength for me out of Fourth Wing is the dragons. I love them so much.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it was uh incredibly fun because you know we're we we're we're getting a surprise extra fourth wing book this fall, but once I finished Onyx Storm, which of course I finished in like two days, yes, I I was like, oh, well, I don't get to hang out with these dragons anymore. Like I can go back and reread, but it's just not the same. Like getting to see, because that dragons are uh, you know, an essential element in so many fantasy stories, but they're never the main characters, they never have like personalities beyond like, oh, he stomped his feet and snorted. Yeah. And it's like, well, I want to like get inside the mind of of a dragon a little bit. So what is how how did you approach getting inside the minds of your dragons?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I tried to think about like how a dragon would see a um a human or a mortal and their relationship. So Dracar is probably the main dragon character in the first book. And um, I was just thinking how funny it would look for um uh him to watch Asha and um her struggle over her love life and how silly it must look to him, especially since he's he's lived a very long life compared to her and sees the world in a very different way. And um, he even calls her little one because she is so young. Um and um he has had a great love in his life. And this is another spoiler his his mate actually dies, and um, so to see him uh her struggle over A Geral just really um is kind of funny and silly to him. But also um I really enjoyed uh writing him as someone who hates men, um hates males. Uh what are you doing with him? You are so much better than him, um, and really helping her see her worth because she's been told her entire life that she is nothing and that she will bring nothing to the family. So to have, I like to think of Dracar as this positive reinforcement that she needs. She is the positive voice that she always needed as a child. I love it.
SPEAKER_01And I love him. I put in my Goodreads review for Dragon Bride. Men are on thin fights. Oh my god. It is just left and right with these men pulling stunts and uh just I and I I threaded at one point and I was like, Oshki, you little mosquito incel, leave her alone.
SPEAKER_00What are you doing?
SPEAKER_01Just go away. And it's like damn, for somebody who lived her whole life in the dragon pits, y'all are so hungry for her. Like go away. And man, just incredible. I did want to know. Um, you have a lot of a lot of really unique names that you know, especially as somebody who is white and interacts with a lot of very white fiction. I don't run into names like this. Um tell me about how you named your characters.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I wanted this to not be a European world. There's probably still some callbacks to um European culture, like cat like castles and things like that. But some of the the names, I really wanted them to be African inspired. And so I spent a lot of time um looking into um the different African mythology, and I couldn't settle on one, so I'm pulling on a lot of them when I'm naming things. Um, but I really did want them to feel unique to be its own world and something that you haven't experienced before. I what I really love about the books, um, and I try to play on this even more in the second book, is that you get to experience different parts of the world. So this one might be all at sea at one point. We start actually with Asha. She's in the middle of a desert. Um, so um I wanted it to look different than um what people are typically used to.
SPEAKER_01I love it. Are we gonna get we didn't have a map in the front of Dragon Bride?
SPEAKER_00I need I'm I I so want one because there's so many names, especially in the second book. I started to draw a map out so just to keep myself grounded.
SPEAKER_01So maybe a map in book three. That's kind of what I'm hoping for. Yes, love that. Um, and then probably my last question specifically about about the book series themselves. Um in Dragon Bride, we've got some little dragons, and I felt like I felt a little bit like I was assigning their personalities to my children. Oh and you're a mom, right? Yes, and so d how much of your kids' personalities are in are in Moana and um it post the other baby, yes.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, so I um I never thought of it that way, but you're absolutely right. Like I did write them as children and as um when you have more than one child, they like compete for resources, they compete for your attention, and that's a lot of what they're doing, especially since um this in the second book, uh, you get to see a bit more of Drakhar and his grief and what he's he's working through. And um, they really don't have a mother, and they really want their father's attention and approval, and he's struggling to give it to them, so they're like fighting over others' attention, trying to give it from other places. Um, but it was fun writing them because I wanted to write them from the perspective of someone who is very young, and um, that even Asha gets to kind of have this motherly role over.
SPEAKER_01It was nice to see that because of how she mothered over the eggs and then getting to to watch that interaction and that growth. I love the the parallels between Asha losing her mother and and Mama and Igbo or Igbo losing their mother and like their interactions with their father, and just I I wept when they were having their fight.
SPEAKER_00I wept right again.
SPEAKER_01And it was just like, oh, because it this is it's so much Osha's world, it's so very Osha-centric, and then just like this very rattling moment of like, okay, you've got your you've got your little bachelorette drama going on over here, but like I'm watching you hurt yourself after I have watched other pain's uh just intense. And I I was gasping, I was crying, I was you know, wincing whenever mean words were said. It was just really like an incredible treat and experience. And so was Dragonblind like an immediate reaction to Game of Thrones, or was that just like an inspo? How did we how did you start putting pen to paper?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Honestly, I think it was a midlife crisis. I've gotten to the point in my life because I I work in uh mental health, but I kind of also work in corporate, and I was like, I need something else in my life. Like I thought I would get to this point, and I would everything would fall into place and I'd be so happy. And in the meantime, I put all of my creativity on the back burner, and so I just got to this point where I was like, I don't want to go to work anymore, you know, and I'm trying to be present as a parent and I'm failing miserably, and I just started writing, and so as much as Asha is based off of Daenerys, she's also based on me and me trying to figure out what I was wanting to do, and um just just realizing more of more facets of myself. Um, so it was very cathartic. Um, I say Dragonblind was the easiest book because I've written like probably six books. Um, just Dragonblind is published, but it's the easiest book I've ever written because it it is a lot of based on me and the feelings that I was going through at that point in time. And then once it was done, I was like, oh, okay, all right. I think I have something here. So it was very cathartic.
SPEAKER_01I love it. And then you got you got Bride out pretty quickly after so we met in I think February of this year. Um, but Dragonblind was published last year, right?
SPEAKER_00In November.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so so you November, and then you've had Bride close to being done, and then it comes out in two and a half weeks.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's coming fast, yes.
SPEAKER_01So, what was the experience writing Bride versus Blind?
SPEAKER_00So it was much harder just because there's a lot of characters and loose ends and things that I needed to tie up, and then I also had to keep some things in mind for the third book. Um, so I would write something, and then I'm like, what about that character? I haven't talked to them in a long time. What are they doing? Um, and just keeping the lore straight and consistent, and um I really wanted to work on um my writing skills because I'm not formally trained in writing or anything. Uh, so I wanted to improve those skills, and um yeah, so it was it was a lot harder, but still I'm a fast writer, so I I um do quick drafts. So I think I got bribe done in a month's time. Um, and uh what was cool about writing it, even though it was harder, I trusted myself more. So I think Dragon Blind, I probably did like 40 revisions of that book, even though it was wonderful as is, I didn't trust my writing. Whereas with Bride, I started to trust myself more.
SPEAKER_01I love that. So was it ever in your mind to write a well, I guess if you've written six other books hanging out in your drafts folder, being an author was sort of on your mind?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, since I was a kid, I joined creative writing classes, I wrote stories for uh my high school paper. And so, like, that was written in your books that she's gonna be a writer someday. And then, like, there was a voice in my head's like, you're not gonna make any money doing that. You need to find something that's gonna make you money. So then I put it to the side. But from an early age, I can remember um loving to read, loving to write. My parents' favorite story to tell is that they didn't have to teach me to read. I learned on my own at age three. I don't know how true that is, but they love to tell that story.
SPEAKER_01Your parents are so crazy proud of you. I I love for for some context for the for the listeners who haven't heard me talk about Dragon Blind before, um, typically your dad comes in with the restocks. Um, and the only reason we haven't seen him this month is that this month Kanara Bookstore has your books on on in their case because that is the book club pick that they're reading this month so they can be ready for Dragon Bride. Um, but every time that he comes in, I mean, this man's chest all puffed out. Oh, and he's like, I'm gonna read it. And I was like, you know, I don't know that it's really a book for you, but it is so sweet that you want to.
SPEAKER_02Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_01And then I cracked up because I I often tell people, like, Dragonblind's not super spicy. It's very romantic. It is not super spicy. Dragon Bride, you went in for it. And it was there's so much like will they, won't they, and like complicated feelings and a lot of really good swoon. Like, you you built this really gorgeous fantasy world, and then you really leaned into the romanticing part of it and I just I enjoyed the heck out of that.
SPEAKER_02Oh, thank you.
SPEAKER_01Um and then I cracked up because I was like, well, you know, I guess it's really not that bad to like suggest that he read it because those spicy bits are kind of, you know, quick. And but then that one I was like, oh yes, the dedication to your parents in Dragon Bride is like probably skip this one. And I'm like, yeah, I agree with that. That's the one. That's the one to just give her ask her for a quick synopsis.
SPEAKER_00And yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01Um so so you spent the time between the two books kind of honing your craft a little bit. What were what were you doing in that time?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I read a lot. Um the books that I really um loved, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what is it I love about this writing. Can I recreate some of these things? I took a few like online courses, quick courses on creative writing, um, especially about um voice and how to figure out where to find your voice in your writing. But yeah, I um that those those are the basic things that I did. And uh also just a lot of it is just trusting like writing something and going. You know what? That's not that's not terrible. That's not terrible.
SPEAKER_01Not too bad at this exactly I've loved it because in that time that you've been writing and honing your craft um and being a mom and being a working person um you've also been really putting in the effort to market your books. Yes. So so you spent weekend before last out enjoying the romanticy world. You want to talk a little bit about the things you've gotten to do?
SPEAKER_00Yeah I I've gotten to go to two balls. So the most recent one was the Faye ball in Kansas City and actually I got to meet a lot of people from Tulsa at that ball because it's like one of the closer um places. But it's just a lot of fun. I do uh really well just selling things at balls like that because it's right in the princess prince realm of things um and people just just love it. So I had a great time there. It's also cool to be around other authors who have the same interests um because when I talk to just regular people in my life they're like oh that's cool but like they don't have they don't love it the way that I love it. And so just being around other people who love it is really great. So I've done those I've gone to a few other events pretty locally that have been great. There's only one been one that like didn't go so well and of course that one was the most expensive but you know what I learned a lot from that experience. And then I've been just very transparent about my journey and that was one of the ones that got um a lot of views because I think so many authors understand that feeling and have experienced it and like finally somebody's talking about this like you don't always um sell out at every event.
SPEAKER_01Yeah at your table that are like wow you know it's a great day for sales and you're like I've been here eight hours and I sold two books and I was super excited when I sold those two books. But uh now I'm getting kind of tired.
SPEAKER_00Exactly exactly so um but yeah um I even though I wasn't selling a lot I learned a lot from the people around me who did events all the time do this try this um and then they're like sometimes it's just like that um and you have to accept it and try to find something that you can take back with you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah that's like the really fulfilling thing about doing those events is that you always meet people and you're like you know finding this this connection and this community and you know it's a common theme you know when I'm when I'm talking to authors here about like writing is such a a singular alone event where you're just kind of scooping your thoughts onto a page and so sometimes you're like I I don't know if this is any good. I don't know if the marketing I'm doing is working I don't know if any of this is worth my time and so like getting to sit with other people who have gone through that you're suddenly like okay this is what it's about is connecting with people and sharing a story and and you know I just think that that's a really wonderful benefit of of like author fairs and literature expos that um that people don't really think about and that I think maybe if authors talked about it more with each other. Like hey this is how you reach people and and get a little bit of like very personal fulfillment even if it's not the most successful at selling a book. But you've been having a crazy good couple of sales months with your book. Yeah um what what spurred that?
SPEAKER_00You know I've been taking a deeper look at it the whole journey and I really think it comes down to um figuring out who my audience is and talking to that audience. Yes I've had a few viral videos but it's like I I actually looked at one in April with one in May and the one in May had fewer views but it sold more books and it's because I'm talking to my audience. So once you figure out who your audience is then you can figure out how to how to speak to them in a way that gets them interested to give you a chance because it's it's a big thing to take a chance on somebody you haven't heard from before. So I I definitely understand that and I appreciate everyone who's willing to do that.
SPEAKER_01I I love that it's a it's an easy risk to take um because the the book is such a beautiful production and you're self-published right and so like you you took the time to get an illustrator who made just this crazy stunning artwork. You worked with the same person on both for the second I was like they both have very very similar art styles I was like I'd be shocked if it was someone different what was the process of finding somebody to design this cover.
SPEAKER_00You know I knew it had to look a certain way so I spent a lot of time on Instagram just looking through photos and then finally I came across um a book that it it had nothing to do with what I was doing but it was just so beautiful. I mean it stopped me and I just kept looking at it and finally I said I'm just gonna reach out to her and ask who did her artwork and she was very kind and shared and so I found that person on Instagram and we just hit it off right away and I couldn't have even I so what's funny is I gave her a picture of a girl and a horse and I said I I just need the horse to be a dragon. So she didn't have a whole lot to go off of but her first sketch of it I was like that's it that is it so um but yeah I couldn't even imagine how beautiful it would be it's stunning and then my my arc package came and it included that that art print of I'm guessing that's Ashan and Adriel on the very first night they met the first night oh my goodness Alexa play Lord Heron like I cry it's just insane.
SPEAKER_01I love I love the intention and the and the care and let it like again it's all about like making those connections and that creates like not only a meaningful experience for you which is nice to have with your with your writings to have these meaningful experiences and exchanges but also that it was somebody that could then take that experience and turn it into these gorgeous covers um that just they tell me they tell me the heart of the book so very much um and like that was when you when you brought your book in to sell to the store I was immediately like I want a copy right now. And like I was like I don't need any more information about it because what I can tell is that this is somebody having a very deep connection with a dragon and then boom it was you know even more satisfying than fourth wing to watch these two come into their own mind. I want to talk a little bit about your writing process so you're a fast writer which is good because you're a busy person. You your degree's in psychology right clinical psychology. Clinical psychology so you you know how to get into mind so when you're when you're writing um even before you took classes on on finding a voice how much of your psychology work kind of bled into your writing?
SPEAKER_00Yeah a lot even from the conception of it because I was thinking about you know the society that um values physical strength and um it's that over emotional strength and when you're in mental health emotional strength is super important and it's often overlooked. And so I thought about what if I had a character that had a lot of emotional intelligence and um use that to um fight wars you know and and um beat the men who over who underestimate her. So it there was a lot that went into it. In the first book there's a lot of themes on PTSD and I thought about even like what would heal this person who is struggling with this. And so there's even um for people who are familiar with um EMDR which is a PTSD treatment there's like even a hint of that in there. I would say the second book though is more about grief. And I spent a lot of time in it Reef World so um yeah yeah so it influenced it a lot.
SPEAKER_01Damn you know just I'm thinking about Asha's Battle Mage and I'm like oh my god that's oh I love that what a like fun little Easter egg. I feel like when I was reading Dragon Bright there was a little Easter egg to and and I was so deep into it that I was like I'm just gonna highlight this and I'm gonna think to ask her later and maybe I'll check Dragonblind um where Adriel says as you wish princess are you a princess right I am I am I love that scene so um and I had thought about taking it out and I was like no I'm just gonna leave it in and it bothers me later I'll take it out but no I love it man it brought so much joy and I was like because that's like it's so so swoony.
SPEAKER_00But then I see that and I'm like I'm dead I've melted I'm a puddle I don't know how she's coming back from that yes um just what a treat are there are there other Easter eggs that people might have overlooked oh a hundred percent a hundred percent like I actually am going to start um like outlining the book this week the third book because like I have and I I feel like I have to read the first book and the second book and I've done that to be able to get to the the last one but there's a ton of Easter eggs and things you're gonna be like of course that's how that's why it's like that um and I am always fearful that I'm being too obvious on the things but um I think people are so like um because the first book ends on a cliffhanger and the second book does as well. So they're just like trying to grapple with that. And I think if you read it two or three more times you'll probably see where it's going.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I love it. And I mean I'm gonna have to go back and and reread Blind and and see how this is all coming together because like the more I ruminate on it and like I said I 45 minutes between talking to you and it to really like sit with what I with what I had just read. But as you were you clearly knew this was going to be a series because on on Blind it says Light Bearer series number one. So you're like definitely going to be one um how much of the events of book two and book three and more if there are more um are already kind of like in your mind like I definitely want to take this story these places.
SPEAKER_00Yeah so it's definitely gonna end with book three and that has a little bit to do with my attention span. Whenever books get to four and five like I lose interest I need to go and be in a different world. So um yeah it's definitely gonna end at three um but I just asked myself like what does Asha need to learn in each of these books and can I do that in three and um I mean it it honestly the story could continue but I think three is enough and um yeah I just wanted to explore certain themes in each book.
SPEAKER_01Would you ever consider like some prequel vignettes or anything?
SPEAKER_00I've thought about that because I if I did something like that I'd probably just put it free on my newsletter and my website um because there is a love story that's that happened before everything and I I included it in the second book and then I took it out because it felt like um information dumping and I was like the reader doesn't really need to know that stuff but maybe I'll save it for a novella. So there might be a novella.
SPEAKER_01Is that uh Mirin and and Kane? Um that's just my guess.
SPEAKER_00Uh that and but also um and I should know the names of my own characters but it's um even before um Asha came to be the original people and yeah the original love story.
SPEAKER_01I I love that so we've got we've got prequel and you've you've definitely like you hinted at it a lot and I'm glad that you're like you've got it in your mind that you might share that stuff because I'm like well I want to read the books with them. Yeah she's just like giving a little rundown real quick like here's what you need to know about this island and this rift and I'm like I want to read it too but I think that's fair because you've given us a a a very digestible fantasy in a in an era of massive tomes and I love the massive tomes but sometimes I also just want to like feel like it's gonna be okay that I sit down and read the entire thing in like one go because I can't justify an 800 page book in one go. Exactly and especially not as a mom. And in that realm, you know what do you it's a two-part question really is what did you like to read before you wrote these books and what did you read to get in the mindset to write Dragon Bride?
SPEAKER_00So I have since I was a kid really loved romance. So I remember reading like kind of team like YA romance books and then I got in really into fantasy books but like if they didn't have at least a romantic subplot I would typically get bored. So um then the term romanticy got really big and I was like that is exactly what I love to read. And so um it it was a no-brainer that I would write a romanticy book because that's what I love to read.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And so when you were writing Dragon Bribe you were reading a bit more romantic yeah so um When the Moon Hatched was um and Sarah A Parker she writes in such a way that is just so beautiful and lyrical and the opposite of what I write but I learned so much reading and understanding her world um so hers was one of the big ones for me of course um I would say those are the big two but there's some other ones that I've read as well um but I'd say those are the two big inspirations.
SPEAKER_01I love that and I I can definitely see like the the slight shift into a little bit more lyrical very there's some very poetic prose in Dragon Bride that I was like ooh this is like yeah it always surprises me I'm like oh I just wrote that not only is this okay but actually I'm really good at this it was it was a really nice shift too like it it matched the the theme more of like this there's so much yearning in Dragon Bride Bride that you know blind was very like we gotta survive this and also we're kind of like growing in a way that was unexpected. And then Dragon Bride is just people yearning. And I I think that that lent really well to the shift to a little bit more artsy language to describe love and to describe grief because like those are things that they're so big that sometimes it's hard to describe them in very grounded terms. And you need to be kind of flowery to process both ends of the spectrum of like being so in love and wanting something so bad and also hurting so bad as a result of loving something so much. So it's really cool to to see how that like influenced what you've written. Yeah absolutely absolutely I agree so you spend a lot of time working because as much as we love to write write writing is work and and you know your job and your kids and what are some things that you like to do to kind of like step back from the work to breathe and allow yourself to feel human.
SPEAKER_00So that even though that's work, it doesn't feel like it when I'm doing it. And then I'd like to I like to be in nature um I like to go to places that remind me of places that I want to write in a book I like to do things with the kids. But yeah I um it it does feel like I I'm doing two full-time jobs right now and being a mom.
SPEAKER_01Which is like two more full-time jobs we love them but it takes so much brain capacity and you know I can I can definitely see how an event like being a moment where you're just like this is my singular focus is connecting with people in hopes that they want to hear more of my stories and I love that. So you have six other books in some kind of finished capacity are what what uh what kind of themes are you exploring in those?
SPEAKER_00So um I think the next book that's gonna be published this year is a historical romance and it's about Tulsa it's about Greenwood and Black Wall Street. So that's been really fun to write it's been fun to talk to my mom about it because um she grew up here and um she wasn't alive during all of that but she heard stories and so she would tell me some of the stories that were passed down to her. And that's been really fun and then like when I come into a stumbling block because I'm struggling to even find articles about something I'm trying to write about she's like oh you could talk about this or you could talk about this so it's been kind of fun to bounce ideas off of her.
SPEAKER_01I I love that that's you know just thinking about Tulsa's history and you know it's been a a big a big like two weeks of Tulsa history on all kinds of historical moments in Tulsa it's such a a well documented and not well documented um but an interesting like time of oral history being passed down which feels so very like true to Oklahoma's roots of like passing oral history down.
SPEAKER_00But what what got you I guess it was just mom mom talking or yeah and um I grew up around that area um I remember learning about and it's also always called the Tulsa race riot which I think is really interesting rather than Tulsa race massacre um which is really what it was um and how it was literally buried for years. And we still don't know how many people lost their life um to it. And it's just interesting how it's even taught in school but I think what fascinated me the most is we had this time in history where the black community came together and said okay um the white people don't want our dollars so we're just going to pull our money and they did it like they were successful in Had their own movie theater, their own schools, their own. I mean, their own hotel, like luxury hotel. Like those things are fascinating to me. And there aren't really books that talk about it.
SPEAKER_01There are a few out there, they'll talk about the massacre, um, but they won't talk about like what the black community they really treat Black Wall Street as like this footnote prologue moment to the Tulsa race massacre. And it's like, okay, but like let's explore the economics of that and like the impact that it was having on the white community until they shut it all down. Um, and then you know, there's conversation and and rumblings about the revival of Tulsa's Black Wall Street, and like, you know, the the efforts to get the Dreamland Theater rebuilt and studies on what if we got rid of that chunk of the IDL that cuts directly through it and is on this historic land and damages Vernon AME. I vote at Vernon AME, so every time I'm over there voting, I'm like, um but but there's so much to grapple with the massacre that I think people forget that part of what made it so horrific was the beauty that was there before it, and then what could be if we would just like stop acting up.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, so um yeah, and you know, trying to find um records of what it looks like and what it was to be um an affluent black member of that community, that's been what's toughest to find in the records, and so I find myself just recreating it and um imagining it um as I would have liked to see it. And um in all of my writing, and I I I tell people this all the time. I want to focus on the beauty of the black community, it's the way I it's why I write Asha the way that I do. And in this book, um, it's called Meet Me in Greenwood. Um I I write mostly about that. So, like the massacre is there, but it's very small compared to the wonderful world of Black Wall Street.
SPEAKER_01And really like sit and revel in it. I think that's gonna be like an incredibly important book. Um is it gonna be an adult adult book?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, and and very romantic because I love romance, it has to be there. Um, but uh yeah, there's a lot of history in there. I love that.
SPEAKER_01It's very like radical in that approach to that approach to history, but also just like shows just how radical romance can be. I think it's something I talked a lot with Heather Dubris about when you're writing like roman romantic, um, talking about how people kind of like poo-poo it because oh well, it's just like girlies want to have their little romance, and it's like, well, romance is life. Exactly. Like we we wouldn't have civilization without romance, but also like it's such a great way to examine challenging topics, and like when you read romanticy, you talk about grief, you talk about PTSD, you talk about manipulation, you talk about governments and uh, you know, like like fascism and taking over and and giving like rebelling and like the kind of hope that a romantic connection can suddenly overturn an entire government structure and this entire realm. And like I think it's just it's fun to see the power of that romance now put into a romantic historical um and allow people to maybe access other important parts of history and important themes and grapple with them in a very like digestible way.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. It's very um approachable and it's something that like we all universally can identify with, even the even if you're not a person of color, even if you're not a black person, like that is something that we all understand is loving someone and what it can get us to do, or even uh how it can help us change our minds about things. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I love it. I'm excited to read it. I'm so angry. I was talking about this before we hit record that I'm I love reading advanced copies because I'm such a like instant gratification kind of person. And when I have access to arcs, like I'm an a monster. But I also like getting into a series and then reading the advanced copy of the next one and leaving on a cliffhanger. And this is the point where you might want to like turn off if you um well, most people this will come out on Friday, so no very few people will have read Dragon Bride by then. Um so I'll I'll mark in the show notes too where they can pick this back up. Um but the cliffhanger that you left Dragon Bride on, so very much like Onyx Storm in that there's a there's memory missing and and uh a man that we now have to save, he's changed somehow. Um was that always where you were going to take it? I mean, there was clearly like some hints at what was about to happen.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think what I struggled with at the beginning of writing the second book is I couldn't decide who was gonna lose their memory, if it was gonna be Asha, my main character, or if it was going to be Adriel. And I really thought it was gonna be Asha.
SPEAKER_01You laid those, and I felt for every single trap. I was like, yeah, obviously Asha's gonna lose her memory to help save Klossies. That's uh her that's her whole MO is take care of my brother, the one brother who's ever been good to me. And then you were like, actually, it's Adriel, and I was like, Oh, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00So um, and it's because in the third book, like at this whole time, all of these men have been pining after her, and she's like, uh, I don't know, I don't know what I want. And if she's going to end up with Adriel, she needs to choose him. And so that's what the third book is laying out is she is she ready to choose him? Um, is that what she wants for herself?
SPEAKER_01I love that Adriel's very much like you you have to make up your mind, and I won't I will not force you into my bed, I will not force you into my life, and like just when we thought we were gonna get like some semblance of a happy rest, and then just bam.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01Oh, and I could see those the worst part. So um I left my paperback at home, and so I was reading my ebook version, and I saw that I was at 99%, and I was like, oh no, this isn't gonna get resolved right now. I'm gonna have to wait. So, oh man, but um before you before you really started writing book two and you were reading, how much of Onyx Storm determined this change? Because it feels very much like Satan turning Venn.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think let's see, Onyx Storm. So I actually wrote this in November um because I had some time off, November, December. Onyx Storm came out in February. Oh no, January. Yes, yes, yes. And so it was already written before I read Onyx Storm.
unknownI know.
SPEAKER_00I know. Authors think alike, man. Um, but yeah, I'm just now putting that timeline together. But yeah, this was written um last year. I love it.
SPEAKER_01That's so thrilling and just, you know, this whole idea of men changing. I also really like enjoy the fact that like we're putting a lot of the men have been put into a damsel in distress, which is nice to see because at no point has Asha really needed rescuing. She's always been the one to escape, and she was already on her way out. And the closest you get really is Dracar saving her a little bit, but really just like her leveraging the bond to help this tool at her disposal, this friend that she knows she can count on, and like you know, understanding that that he is someone she can count on. And you see a little bit of a parallel with that with um Zephyr and Mirin in her like being flung out the window and then getting caught. Like you have to be able to trust me because I can't save you. You're gonna have to do that, but you need to know that you have this very powerful tool at your disposal. So you just super neat and wonderful, and like what a feminist book to to have this woman who's so very strong and so very sure, and she's just constantly getting men out of the debacles they've put them in.
SPEAKER_00Yes, exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_01So the this this deal that they've made to make this this phoenix of tears. The phoenix of tears. Um was there ever any consideration in making Asha part of that bargain or that any of the characters would like let her in on what's going on?
SPEAKER_00Because I know they were in the memory very like we can't tell anyone about this, but like yeah, no, I never wanted Asha to know. I wanted her to find out at the very end because the um, and it's some of the critique, and I think it's valid in the first book, is that Adriel's kind of an asshole. Um, he's he's morally gray. And so people would tell me I kind of hate your MMC, and I'm like, yeah, that's fair, that's fair. So the second book really needed to be his redemption arc, and so he's doing all of this for Asha, and he's choosing Asha, but she doesn't know that yet. She doesn't know it till the end. So that's why I didn't want her to know until the end.
SPEAKER_01So painful watching, you know, uh I can bless her heart, I can't remember her name, but the his betrothed through most of it. Yeah, just like so painful how aware she is of Adriel's feelings for Asha, even though she's like, is anyone gonna tell me exactly what went down between the two of you? And they're like, no, nothing. I hated that guy, but like I guess I sort of liked him a little bit more at the end of our travels, but like just um heartbreaking for her. Yeah, yeah. She just wants to be loved by a cute guy and get married on a boat, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00And um yeah, she's got big dreams for herself. She's also someone who recognizes power and wants power. Um so if that was kind of fun to play with. I didn't want to make her evil. She's I wanted her to be more naive and whimsical and wanting um, you know, this beautiful life uh with someone. And um now she's kind of grown up and she's seen what this is really about.
SPEAKER_01I think it's just like very interesting the the two parallels of like marriage as power because she she recognizes that a powerful marriage, she recognizes that a powerful marriage will benefit her and and she wants to be involved in that. Um, but she's kind of still letting her father like wield that power. Uh, whereas Asha is like, all right, this major bargaining chip that I have is marrying me. And so like I'm going to leverage that in both books, leverages her hand uh to control these men, um, who I don't even think they realize like just how much they're getting played by her saying, yeah, I'll marry you, yeah, I'll marry you. And like her then seeing this chance with Adriel to be like I could, I could marry him, and it wouldn't necessarily be about manipulating, but just letting my heart choose something, and it's yeah, really cool. I love I love a little literary character's journeys, and absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's fun to write the secondary characters and like what would they want out of this situation, and you know what are their hopes and dreams? What are they gonna be frustrated about? Um, Kitschi is the one person that I felt like I kind of put her on the back burner because I want her to have like this epic love story, and there wasn't time to really build that. So I hope I have time in the third book. Otherwise, it's gonna be in an Ophella somewhere because I think it's really beautiful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I like all the little the little nods and the little loves, and I'm I'm very devastated about certain deaths.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01I won't spoil the whole darn thing for everybody, but I was heartbroken, and I I appreciated that it was not labored upon. There wasn't time really to labor upon it, um, but that it was just like here's the very cold, sad truth of the reality. And Adriel grapples with it, and then Asha grapples with it, and then we've got other stuff to do, but it's like, oh yeah, oh man, and I didn't realize how much I loved that character. I was like, oh, what a fun little guy, and then that happened. I was like, oh, now I'm devastated, and there's also so much to go. How did you decide? I I guess I guess it is a natural ending point to then lead into a book, but like did you ever think about making that happen a little earlier in the book, or maybe yeah.
SPEAKER_00So the ending changed so much, and it was because I got feedback from a developmental editor, and she's basically said the last 60 pages or so, like that's a book in its own. And she's like, you need to figure out how to end it sooner and start up again. Um, so that was I that was my toughest thing was to figure out where do I where do I end this thing then? Um so um that death definitely felt like okay, that feels like a good place to end and we'll pick it back up in the next book.
SPEAKER_01I thought that. Yeah. So welcome back if you skipped through past the spoilers. Um, because we're going to kind of pull it into um more just a general conversation with my final question. I always say it's the final question, but it like usually spurs like another 15 minutes of conversation. Um, but what is something that has like surprised you or has been very interesting for you as you kind of move from this insular writing your book into being an author?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so um, in order for people to read your books, you gotta put yourself out there. And I am an introvert, I'm like super introverted. It's interesting because I'm like a director, so I'm I manage lots of people, and I don't know how I do it because it feels very uncomfortable for me, and it's the same with marketing my book, like I'm I struggle to do it sometimes. Um, but I try to remember that um nobody knows the story like I do, and I just need to find people who will fall in love with it the same way I did writing it, and um, it'll spread. So, but it yeah, when you are self-publishing, you are starting basically a a business and you are everything, so you are doing everything on your own. Um, there's a few people you could pay to do certain things like cover art and things like that, but for the most part, you're doing everything on your own, and so that's been the hardest thing is figuring out how to push myself in spaces that maybe um I'm not the most comfortable in and finding ways for me to manage it and still have fun doing it. So I've been surprised that I like doing events. I'm shocked that I can put my face on camera and do TikToks and Instagram and things like that. Um so I always think I always think about uh what would happen if my staff found my my social media, my patient, like because I'm so I'm such a different person on camera, but also like this is me. Um and I I'm actually probably hiding my true self when I'm at work, trying to be professional and all of that.
SPEAKER_01I guess that like leads into like a little like bonus question. Like, so Ivan Christians is your name. Uh-huh. Um, and and I talked to Heather a lot about like this this kind of risk that feels like using like a I don't write under a pen name either. Um, and and I didn't even when I was teaching, so like any of my students could have looked at my name at any point and found my book which has adult content in it, and like, you know, was there ever like a a thought behind maybe put putting it to a pen name?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I thought about it for a long time, but no pen name seemed right, and um I've also I've always been really proud of my name. Um, I've always really loved it. Um and I put so much effort into getting people to say it correctly that I was like to pick a different name, just it just never felt right. So um yeah, it was always going to be my name. Um, and Christians is actually my married name. And so I'd say really the only debate was whether I was gonna use my maiden or my married name. Um, but I told my husband when we got married, like socially, my last name is Christians, and so it just felt right to use that name.
SPEAKER_01Was there anything you want to share or add to the um no?
SPEAKER_00I will say um that you were the very first bookstore that I pitched my book to. I'm super nervous because like people, you know, they talk about how to do it online, and you're just scared that they're gonna be like, why would I put your book in my store? And you were so lovely, and that gave me the confidence to start pitching to other bookstores, and so I've I've been able to do that successfully and teach other people how to do it because they have the same fears. Yeah. Um, but yeah, you made it a really lovely first experience.
SPEAKER_01It's it's such a joy to be a part of it. And I think I've I really gotta say like Magic City doing their author bash last year, like gave me the the push I needed to be like, yes, you people can confidently like I can refer to uh myself as an author and like I can take ownership of that. And you know, they put out the open call for authors, but I was like, well, it's easy enough for this self-published person to to go forth and all I had to do was sign a forum and say, This is what my book's about. And suddenly I'm able to to sell a book there. And you know, when we when we opened this, we always knew that we wanted to to bring local authors in there, and also part of that is because I still had like a box of books. I ordered so many for the fair, which was great, and I sold a lot, and like, but I had a huge box of books still of mine, and I was like, Well, if I'm gonna put myself on the shelf, uh-huh, and I knew that I was gonna put Leah Gray, who I need to get more books from her, um, when Leah and I were talking, and I was like, Well, I'm opening this bookstore, so I'll carry your book when it comes out. Um, it's like, well, if I'm gonna do these two self-published authors, then like I wanna be a space where the barrier is low to getting a book on a shelf. And like in doing that and the conversations I've had with other booksellers, is that it isn't a unique thing to to be like, yeah, come on, come on in, self-published authors. Um, but it is a unique thing to have the guts to do that, which is the big, the big hurdle, and like you know, it's I appreciate the compliments about about being like nice about it, but I really truly am just like that's the philosophy. I want to be able to platform local authors and I want to make people feel like they can go do that at other ones. And that was literally on threads this morning. Somebody was like, what if I just went into a store and put my book on a shelf? And I was like, well, first of all, what a nightmare. Because sometimes, you know, I sometimes before I had really like given my booksellers the heads up. I would sometimes come in and there would be a book on the local author shelf, and I'm like, I I know I didn't okay that, and like I would have, and I will, but like, oh no. Yes, how did this get here? If I scan it, is it going to show up as something in my inventory? And I was like, what a nightmare it would be for me to show up, and nobody knows how that book got there. Because the couple that did show up, I was like, oh hey, who who met this author? And they're like, Oh, hey, it was me. Here's their contact info. Um, if you can send them the consignment link and like all of that. But I was like, but if you just instead of doing that, which it sounds like you're nervous about that, and I want to tell you that it would just make everything very complicated, use the guts that you would have to do that to find the owner and say, hey. And and I loved and appreciated, like I encourage people to do what you did, what Dave did, what Scott did. Most of most everybody on here came in and had a personal conversation with me. And that's like such a powerful, like at minimum, I get to say, Oh, yes, I've made FaceTime with this person, and so I can talk a little bit more knowledgeably about the book they're trying to sell. But it also often ends up in like really cool personal conversations, like when I talk about your dad coming in, I'm like, oh yeah, you know, this has happened, or you know, this person came up very nervously, and their friends had to be like, go ask, you know, talking about, well, how did you hear about me? Oh, I was in this writing group, or you know, I saw this post and getting to have those personal connections. Again, that's I mean, it's how you sell a book, it's how you sell a book to a bookstore, like and it's a lot of fun, it's very fulfilling for me.
SPEAKER_00Good.
SPEAKER_01I just love it.
SPEAKER_00Yes, oh my goodness. Yeah, I can't imagine buying a book and you're like, I don't know how this got here.
SPEAKER_01Like, what a panic because usually when that happens, I'm like, oh, is this like from the used shelf? Because we buy used books anytime that we're open. And so I'll be like, I don't recognize this because I personally select everything on the sh on these shelves except for Kayla's shelf.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and with with Kayla's stuff, I know it's there because she and I talk about it. Yes. And so I'm like, I ooh, is this like a used book? And they're like, no, it's over there on your shelf. And I'm like, oh no. Now I look goofy.
SPEAKER_00Oh, goodness.
SPEAKER_01Oh you can with confidence pick up Dragon Blind um at Canara Bookstores Pop-Ups, um, typically at Jones Coffee Company. You can also pick them up off of the Kanara bookshelf here at Meadow Market Books for at least this month, and then we'll probably go back to just having you on the local shelf in our fabulously growing local author section.
SPEAKER_00Oh, awesome.
SPEAKER_01So thank you so much for listening to Paper Girl Podcast. Next up on the schedule, we have Laura Vogt talking about her debut in The Great Quiet. Um, Dragon Bride, the sequel to Dragon Blind and book two in the Light Bearer series, comes out June 30th, and you will be able to find copies here, absolutely for sure, and be prepared for me to yap at you about it. So thank you so much for listening and thank you again for coming on.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, absolutely, thank you. All right, awesome.