Ep7: Vulnerability, hedgehog hunting and pigeon loving

Welcome to the Drunk & Disorderly podcast….Sorry we meant the F’n Sober podcast 

Each week we discuss issues around recovery/sobriety as well as whatever other random rubbish comes into our heads

In this weeks episode we discuss vulnerability and the role it plays in recovery. We talk about “personas” and the different layers we build up overtime that ultimately masks our true selves 

Plus Nick and Ciaran go hedgehog hunting , Dave takes us back to the days of the rag and bone man and Ciaran reveals his pigeon fetish 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Give me the phone.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Just checking on his uh rush. Just checking on his OnlyFans.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

I don't know, yeah. Come on, mate. Do that in your own time. Right, you know, it's officially started now once I sit down. Oh if I mean officially his OnlyFans have started. Can't tell you.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Can't tell you. You know.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

I'll be rolling in it soon, me, you'll be rolling in it. Rolling in what?

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Yeah, pound pound coins and two P's up in the floor. And knickers. That's three times you mentioned knickers, you ought to be careful.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

You ought to be careful. Yeah, there's it there is benefit.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

I do think it's for my benefit. I'm I'mn't heard of my viewpoints and anything, did he? Unify points there. I'm happy being uh being um good all it.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

The sex symbol. Well, yeah, the symbol it just the symbol he's got.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

I wouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Well he's not got much competition.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Well, I was gonna say to be fair you know, to be fair, you probably are the sex symbol. Yeah. Yeah of of the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

Alright. No, I'm not I reckon I reckon Davies. I reckon Davies. I reckon he's got a bit of a just a masculine beast of a man. See him bench pressed 200 kilos the other day. Should have seen it and he sort of got off and he growled I shit it, me. I shit it laughing out the give. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Not just a pretty face.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

No, not a pretty face at all. So moving on. Um days morning moons go. We know I think I know what it's gonna be. If it's not that, I'll be surprised.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Keep it PG, Dave. Preparing for a colonoscopy is a pain in the arse. Yeah, I've got a change of my diet and everything. We call Senna. What's the thing you what's one of them?

SPEAKER_00 1:59

What a senna or a colonoscopy?

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Yeah, camera will be back, so right, okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Part and parcel, and we're getting wealth, not just uh what you're gonna say part and parcel if you're getting old. I'm gonna ask them. I'm old, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

Naturally I'm old. So I'm gonna I'm gonna tell them to know that just before they do it, don't lube it. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I'd say. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, leave that lube out.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

I want it scribey. I might moan about it, but it's part and parcel of getting well. Yeah. That's one of the things I've I've said to myself now that I've got clean, I'm living a clean lifestyle, I'm enjoying life with part and parcel. It was all not just mental health and part of addiction and all of that. It's getting well, going to the doctors regularly, eating healthy, apart from last night, obviously. But that's it. It's uh it's a pro a lifestyle programme for me now, not just similar.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Um similar to what we were talking about the other day, and I think I think you've got to apply it to your life.

SPEAKER_03 3:00

It doesn't work if you don't apply it to everyday living.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Yeah, you've got to look at the thing that to some extent the damage you've done realistically, yeah. But also not necessarily the damage to done like through drink or this, that and the other. A lot of the times damage just by not paying attention to yourself, by ignoring things that other people would go to the doctors for because you just rather get pissed or you'd rather do whatever. I don't mean you specifically, I mean in general.

SPEAKER_03 3:21

That mass the problem that mass the problem. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

That's what we did, that's what I did. Yeah, yeah. I put everything I put everything else behind me using, which health-wise, not just mental health-wise, physical health-wise, yeah. And it at my age now, I'm playing catch-up.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

And that's the problem now. I'm taking more pills and potions than I did when I was using, ironically. It's for my better health somewhere down the line. I'll feel it. Like going to the hospital next week. I could have just cancelled it. I was looking through paperwork last night, thinking, why am I doing this? And then I thought, well, it's not just having a camera up the backside, it's about checking for cancer. Yeah, it's polyps that can grow into cancer, other things like that.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Yeah, I think I couldn't do the big thing, like in general. I think well, this isn't necessarily a recovery thing, I think that's just a men's thing. I think we ignore stuff. Yeah. My thing, my thing is really bad because my thing is obviously I lost two well a few people last year, but what happens is it makes you do things, so like you know what I mean. You you as soon as one person died last year, I was like, I better get checked. So checked a few things, but then over time you just crack on, and then the next thing you know, someone else is dead, and you're like, I better check. Do you know what I mean? It's like a reminder, but then that you just plod on, don't you? I think that's what men I think men do that anyway.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

Yeah, just like even on I went to the doctors last week and I've not heard anything back yet, so I'll take that as fucking good news. Yeah, yeah, it depends what you meant for. Well, it was it was a blood test for loads of things. Yeah, yeah, you should have heard them. I'm not heard back at all, even from the ECG, they've not even got in contact with me. So I'll take that as good news.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Yeah, but I mean you have to ring them, that's a good thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Well we we we we persuade each other to do these things now as well. Yeah, I suppose, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Well, I mean, if you look at the conversations that we've had here, not just us to today, but like the other day and what have you, we're quite open about what we talk about. You maybe more so than other people, but but we are quite open and honest about it. So, like, you know, whether it's talking about cameras up fucking bums or people fucking peeing blood or whatever, it's a million one conversations where people are like, and and some of it is just like I don't even know about that. Well, what like you just said, what's the what's colonoscopy? Do you know what I mean? It's about finding out and then saying, Do I need that? You don't need that, don't just go there randomly saying you want something should you bomb because you'll get arrested. But if someone says to you, at least you now know what a colonoscopy is because we have those conversations.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

And I think the the pure what's good about this programme, what we're trying to do is is our complete honesty for ourselves is contagious on on the on the on the people who watch because that will that's what we want because we want people to identify to that honesty. Well, the thing is for us if we're vulnerable, and then the people who are watching this can sort of identify to that.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

And then if you look at it, if you look at it in the building, so if you look at the groups of people that we've got coming in the building, whether it be from recovery houses or like on the Tuesday, Thursday mornings are be very grouped, you've essentially got a load of men from Salford, working class people who don't really have these well, no, well, they do have these conversations, but the point is that in general it's not something that you do, but you look at the kind of people that come in here, and it's you you you you won't think you're having the conversations you're having, but because you come in and you're being honest, and I think that's one of the main things about the centre, whether it being a rec whether people want to call it you know a recovery or this, that and the other. Actually, it sounds really cheesy, but it's it's an honesty centre because I don't think people come in and expect to have the conversations that they have. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Yeah. Well, the conversation we had this morning, we were all involved in it. See it was my personal issue, but uh I I'm open to other people's opinions.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

I think for me as well, I feel I feel quite safe here. As in when I say that, I mean I feel quite safe as being my vulnerable self. Do you know what I mean? I don't have to I can drop all my it's like when I go into the back to the rehab centre or I go back into doing group. It's like I feel I feel like me above safe because I can sort of just be you don't have to put on a persona, do you?

SPEAKER_00 7:15

That's that's what I mean. Because that's a good topic to talk about. Well that's it, but that's the truth is is that we'll do that now. But the truth is is that people put on personas anyway, but if you think about it, in some way or another, we've all seen each other in a vulnerable state, or you've come in the door, you might not have been in a vulnerable state, but you hear other people talking about another thing, and then you think, oh, I can be that's that's what I said. That honest is contagious, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

It contages onto other people, yeah. I mean it's like a sickness in it when someone's complete honest and it makes other people be honest, and that's what we want because that's where we can only work with, especially in rehabs and the community centres, and even in going to like meetings and that we can only work with someone's honesty. If you're not being honest, how can we work?

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Do you know the other thing as well, which is I think also quite relevant to that, which is so you've got the the you've got the you're done, champ, see you later. So so you've got the concept of which is great, you've got the concept of we've all to some extent have seen each other or been around each other vulnerable, so you know you can be vulnerable, but you've got the flip side of that is is that most of us have also seen and heard people talk bullshit and you can't get away with it. So you kind of also ask kind of have to be even you don't have to be vulnerable, but you pretty much do have to be honest because not that people won't give you the time of day, probably because I've been there, yeah. So you're not in a bullshit of myself, yeah. So you can just spot it, you know, and I think I think I think you guys are probably like you yourself, mainly, but I I think uh you're a lot easier at and some not some people who also don't come to the group are better at calling it out. I will sometimes let it sit because especially if it's around something I've all I'm uh because I've not been through I've not done the programme and this and the other, yeah, yeah. So I'll let it sit. Whereas you where you'll say something like, Yeah, you talking shit. You're making an excuse and I'll be like, Oh, alright, well that's what I was thinking.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

But that was a perfect example. We mask things with humour.

unknown 9:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

We broke subjects with humour.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Yeah, well that's true, yeah. Nothing's out there, and you can kind of like it's a weird one, really. I can't really describe it because it's kind of a natural thing that ended up happening, isn't it? But if you think about it, you kind of like it's a weird you know when to laugh, you know when to take the piss, you know when to you know when to break, you know when someone's just poke about something really, really deep, and you know that that person wants you to make a joke, yeah. Not about them, but about the situation so so everyone just like breaks the silence. So you'll you'll have a deep conversation with someone, and someone will say something, and everyone will start laughing and we'll move on. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Or it'll just be like, oh okay, and on that note, and everyone will laugh and we'll all move on, and it's fucking that's what we used to do in the pub. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

And now we've we can't well, we don't go in the pub. It's not that we can't go in the pub, yeah. We can't have any left to be fair. You don't drink, yeah. Well that's how we used to do it. Yeah. It was like the pub used to be after you grew up in your teen years and you got to a certain age, start going to youth clubs. The youth club is your pub. Yeah, yeah. That was your next step. You you're with the bloke the the guys you grew up with, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

So then you're going into a we kind of foster we try to foster that here, whether it's in the a good thing for that is is obviously the fact that we've got the gym.

SPEAKER_04 10:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

You know what I mean? And and and I think the um, you know, we spoke about this the other day as well, but we'll touch on this again, is is the idea that you know, taking ownership of your body and what have you, but doing it in the environment, like you say, instead of sitting around wasting your body by drinking beer and whatever, you go into the gym, you're working out with each other, it's the same kind of thing, you've still got the same kind of banter and support and what have you. A lot of it's just turning up though, in it as well.

SPEAKER_03 10:53

Yeah. Getting yourself I think getting yourself to the gym, getting you in that routine. That's I think although the podcast isn't necessarily aimed at man at men, I do think that the um you know, there is a conversation there as part around manhood and like you say, masking and personalities and personas and for for men, like you know, even for myself, I can only sort of speak for myself and give my advice, that's all I can sort of do. Do you know what I mean? But yeah, yeah. The way I sort of grew up was just, you know, it was just must be kill or kill or be killed. So I I my my brain adapts to that and I protect myself with all these personas with all these masks to keep myself sh keep yourself safe on the streets, you know what I mean? I've got that street in me. So when I come into it, they're built in.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

I think a lot of it as well, especially when it comes to like things like manhood and what have you, there's this weird perception there. See there's a difference between being open and being soft. Does that make sense? And I think that's one of the other conversations, is I think a lot of people approach it that because when I think it's that's other people's opinion on that.

SPEAKER_03 11:53

If I if I'm if I'm open and that is soft, if someone thinks it's open or someone thinks it's soft, that's two opinions. So I I could be open, it could it could probably be soft, but to like you might not think it's soft, but to Dave, he might he might think it's it's open. We don't know.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

What I mean is so that it's being soft, let me mean his weakness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think what people vulnerability, and I think that's actually I I think it's weird because actually if you're if if you're confident enough in yourself to be vulnerable, yeah, then realistically you're um you are you kind of are masculine. Does that make sense? Because you're confident enough in in in yourself vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yeah, because you know you you know you can stand up for yourself, whether it be verbally or physically, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

And that's fear. Yeah, that's that's what we suffer with. We suffer with a with a fear-based illness.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

We don't like making ourselves vulnerable, yeah, because of the fear of being vulnerable. Yeah, but now it's not so much a macho thing anymore. Men are allowed to show the feelings now. Yeah, men are allowed to show fear.

SPEAKER_03 13:00

Yeah, you've got no choice in recovery, you've got it or you don't. Well, in recovery, certainly the concept of recovery is either you do or you don't. If you don't want to show if you don't want to show weakness, you're not gonna recover.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Well, that's part of the masking as well, isn't it? You've got to you either address it by showing weakness or you address it by drinking beer. But first of all, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

But first of all, you've got to get some trust. Yeah, I had to find some trusting people because I wasn't getting vulnerable people that I don't yeah, I don't trust. So that's really important when you come in to find someone who you you trust. Yeah, I mean, then you're sort of breaking your barriers down, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

And start chipping away. You you get in fact you you are in touch with I'm your touching feelings now. Yeah, so the way my life has changed around now, I'm touching my feminine side, but not the only feminine side you're in touch with. Not just because I've stopped using, just because it's it's a different way of lying. It's a it's a really good way of lying.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Yeah, it is. I mean, again, it it's it imagine you you you don't you're also if you don't wear a mask, you never need to worry about it falling off. True. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, so you don't have to the problem is is that people juggle personalities. So not only do people have fake personalities, they also juggle sit a lot of a lot of a lot of I have, I've got a borderline personality, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

So we do, but that's what a personality disorder is. People think a personality disorder is like you see in the movies, like that, that that glass. Yeah, yeah. It's not a personality disorder, is we've got that many personalities because we've used that many to protect us, we don't know who we are.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

The concept of it is a lot of the time with with with certainly with like border person uh borderline personality. A lot of addicts have it a lot of that kind of stuff, is because what happens is is that we we I say we um I might I want to know, but what I mean is in general the concept being that actually what happens is you develop certain personas to deal with trauma, but those people never reconnect. So you're always instead of them all going through and then coming round on the other end, you end up just having little pathways, so you never quite know which one of them is you're gonna pull in from.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

I totally agree, and so does he all right.

SPEAKER_03 15:05

I can't see you, but I mean that that's that's that's massive, you know. That's really massive. When we experience trauma, that our react our brain reacts to that is to protect ourselves with with different personalities, so in recovery, you know, we that's that's the mask we wear, which we in in the 12 step scene would that's our defects of character. We're acting on them defects of character is is is we're protecting ourselves from our vulnerable self.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

And also the the further down the road you go, I suppose I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm not a psychologist there, but also the further down the road you go, I'm not, but I've got a lot of knowledge in it. Yeah, because I've got it. The further down the road you go with it, also, as that as it sounds, is it not only does it help you deal with trauma caused upon you, it helps you kind of deal with trauma you impose upon others. Yeah, of course. Because that wasn't necessarily you that it was you that did it, but you understand what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 15:59

You you can kind of blame you show more empathy after addressing everything because we were always take, take, take, yeah, yeah. Now it's a case of giving back, and that's part and part of uh narcotics and announced ethos is giving back what you've been given.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Yeah. I think that's one of the things with things like personality. I heard someone say this one, so it isn't mine, because if it's shit, it's not mine. If it's God, I'll take a bit of credit for it, but so basically but you're you you're essentially you've got your your diamond, which is who you are when you were born, and then over the years you've just put shit and shit and shit on it, and then all the drugs and everything have essentially just varnished, and instead of digging through the fit, you've just varnished the shit, made it look pretty. Do you know what I mean? So when you do your recovery, it starts digging through to find the concept of the diamond again. Strips you back. Now, just before we go any further with that, would you say that was really good? Because if you did, I'm gonna say okay. Well, that was brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 16:50

That was it was okay. I weren't right about that today. It was an alright analogy, you know. I'm not amazed, I'm not like grabbing onto my seat.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

That's pretty good that I think I think a lot of it with with um with guys that I've meet from recovery is that it takes a while, but eventually that's what happens, you end up finding the the true self again.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

Yeah, that's that's that's that's that is so that is recovery in a nutshell. Yeah, it's being comfortable with your vulnerable self, yeah. Who I am, so you dine and but that's what we're trying to get to a level where that that comes with self-acceptance. Once we sort of find that person who we're comfortable with, for example, I'm only gonna say for me, you know, once I sort of get to a place where I'm comfortable with myself, yeah, it'll s it it stops me from fixing, yeah, it stops me from fucking acting out, you know, all these manifestations that we go through in recovery because we're not comfortable with with who we are. That's why people act out, and that's why people get different addictions and you manifest and where the disease is acting. There's even more to that.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

If I started using when I was in my mid-teens, yeah, did I actually know who I was then?

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Well, there's also that, I suppose that's the other element of it, isn't it? If you start messing using mind altering whatever at a young age, you never really develop because you're not really good at it until you're not.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

But it's not really on me. It's good and we accept we have to accept good and bad. Do you know what I mean? We've got to accept the good in us and accept the bad in us. Yeah, yeah. That's how we find who we are. Do you know what I mean? Because we've we've got a lot, we've got a lot of shit in us and we've got a lot of good in us. If we're trying to put if we're trying to look for that good stuff in us all the time, we'll be on it at an end of the time.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

But that's that's with you with your like with some of your stepwork as well. It's like why you're addressing certain things because it makes you fast. Yeah, yeah. Because everyone can probably, even the people in in the hardest thing can find out the thing that they think about them that is good to some extent. It's it's it's pure it's pure humility. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:40

That is pure humility, that you know, self-acceptance, you know, the the realistic version of who you are. That's a dictionary. What it says in the dictionary about humility is a realistic version of yourself, right? And that's what it is. That's pure humility. So when you find that comfortable, yeah, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

You've got to you've got to see that you're always growing. Of course. You can't stand still. You can always be a better person.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Even if that's just being polite to somebody in the street.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

I think I'm pretty ace, to be fair, Dave. I'm not sure I could do much of it. Yeah, I think it's a bit denial. But to be fair, I'm gonna cut this in a cut this in a minute because a minute, because a minute no, I'm I'm gonna edit because a minute he pointed at me and he went, You're diamond. So there's gonna be a clip somewhere of you pointing to me going, you're diamond. No. Okay. Yeah, it is that's what humility is, and again, I think that's the thing is like overtime.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

It's because people think you people think humility is like humble, like just being being like well, people come in. People think people, a lot of people who uh come into recovery think humility is like getting the piss tuck out of that, you know, humility, get you know, really getting that pissed up out, but it's not, and it's humility is just just you know, being really uh finding finding out who you are and who you're not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Comfortable comfortable in your own shoes, you know what I mean. You know, you don't you don't think you're better than people because you know where you come from, and you know that's a big part, big part of the solution to a 12-step programme is being humble.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

That's that's what we do, you know. We just get a bit we find a bit of recovery, we get a bit humble, we remember where we come from, we don't, we don't, we don't take ourselves away from where we need to be.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Well that's the other thing, you're not running away from anything, are you? So like things like like we were talking about before, like approaching family or this, that and the other, you're you you you instead of just saying, Oh, I'm uh I'm a better person now, but I don't want to I don't want to address any of that, so you're on the way. That's why the step work will go, well, actually, you m you might think you're better now, you may have done lots of work on you, but if you do you want to go and hide and be this new person, or do you want to go back to where you were and be this new person? And that's where things like I imagine when we talked about before, amends and stuff makes a difference because it's making you then go back as that new person, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Also, you you don't people go through the steps time and again. Yeah, yeah. I remember when I first came around and listening to somebody in the meeting and say, Oh, my one, two, three step work that I've done the first time round, it's totally different to the one I'm doing it now.

SPEAKER_03 21:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. Because we change because we change work changes.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Well, your viewpoint of things changes as well, don't you? So even things like expect to change your life. So, like and this I don't know if this is true or not, but I'd imagine things like so. Initially, when you start making amends or anything like that, or or even doing looking addressing things like resentments, what you're looking at is family, friends, work colleagues, or whatever. But I know people like, for instance, when they went the second time round, they had to go and make amends, but the people who were making amends to were people that they did the stuff with. So at the first time round, the fact that it was a person that they used to go and do drugs with, that well, they don't need an amends then, did it? Because they did it with me. But actually, the second time around.

SPEAKER_03 21:43

You're probably blaming them, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah, but the second time round, they've had a look at themselves, they've come back and then they're like, I was oh, yeah, I'm gonna go and reach out to such and such a person, and I think, oh, I didn't even think about that. So it does broaden you broaden your your viewpoint as well. I mean, I think so. Obviously, through meeting people and we're working in in in in recovery to an extent and then with some of the other stuff that I do and what have you I found for me so you know I I was child of big potatoes when I was younger so I mean so you know doing the doors and fucking being a boxer and this that and the other and that to an extent just becomes a persona don't it because you're just like well this is what macho is so I'm gonna I'm gonna do it. You're all you're bothered about is all what other people think yeah but then I got to a real good point in my life where consistently whether I was younger boxing or whatever or doing the doors or doing this that and the other the the one thing that went through was that I was always a bit of a knob. So I kind of just go back to being funny knobnik trying to be funny all the time and then just and then slowly realise that actually that's actually part of my character trying to be can you like look back now and and think I was I was doing that just to to impress people yeah and I look back well yes because to an extent yeah I can because that's quite that's quite actually you getting vulnerable so so I can because it goes off the where I grew up so where I grew up it impressed me. So it impressed me that these people were doing that kind of stuff. So so then I would so at the time no I'd at the time I couldn't because you're in it I was seeing what all the all the old boxes or everyone were doing there me we're going to do the doors and we're going to do this and either be a you know gangster so I would go I'm doing what they do then so but I didn't realise actually not only was I copying their behaviour but actually realistically they must have been in the back of my eye thinking about other people looking then looking at me and thinking do you know what I mean this guy's this guy this guy and do you know what I mean? Um and again you know it might not be drink or drugs or whatever but but but but following that pathway doesn't necessarily because you're a lot of that a lot of that stuff's driven from insecurities. Yeah definitely even the gym even the gym well the gym the gym's never so the gym's never been something I've been insecure about because but I kind of entered the gym my uncle had a gym when I was when I was really young so the gym and I was boxing when I was young so that was I didn't go into that like so like I know some people who go to the gym for that because it because they're insecure and what have you whereas for me it really wasn't because because of my because my uncle had a gym it when he had he and my uncle had a gym he would let you go so it was a bit different that wasn't really I mean obviously I know that for me it was yeah I got into the gym just for do you know because I had really low self-esteem and I wanted to look well and I wanted to do what I mean I wanted they want to see that I was doing well and and get a bit of size you know I mean that's why did you stop going because I got better I got well no but you're right people do yeah people do and you know it's all a lot of stuff's gone on from individuals and do you know but this is going to be a whole little path we'll go down but that becomes an addiction but but I'll tell you something that which is true about that because that not only happens right so some you so people go to the gym right to like you say look bigger and feel better themselves for other people there's those people but then there's even more people not there's less people but it's an even madder thing that they go to the gyms and they're the people that do stuff in the gym that you don't need to do so the people in the gym think so they're not just doing it for the people when you leave it for the people they're doing it for the people in the gym are watching them and going there they're Bellens are there's no helping you there's no helping you guys know it's like the guys who take the top off that's why I've got signs up in the gym saying keep your top on no one wants to see it. Yeah of course people arch on something and think that they think they're spectacular and I do and I do think and I do think it's a bit genetic in the male genes a bit of you know a bit a little a bit in the gym they want to be they want to lift the heaviest they want to look the biggest they want to take like like animals do in in the jungle they want to take control they want to be the truck you know what I mean we don't we don't hunt and we don't we don't you know have to fight or anything anymore do we so a lot of us like this is kind of our brains are still very undeveloped so we go right well we'll do this instead then do you know what I mean? I might look like a like an like a warrior I may not be able to go and like kill anything because I'd get battered by a fox but I wish life was like that though now we just you know what I mean kits kit back where you you know going going just going a hunt going hunt something I don't because I think back in the cable I feel it's only so long meeting would stay with me if I kept returning home with a fucking hamster every day coming home with a fucking dog no you wouldn't even get a dog you wouldn't get away and you shoot it wouldn't you'd just be there with a hedgehog every day like look I know it's getting repetitive just do your best please don't leave me I don't do the gym but I know I'd be the one that survives well yeah but you would be the one that survives because you'd be the old fella that everyone would look after you know when you watch the movie you know when you watch and you go into the tent and there's the old fella that's dying guy isn't it yeah that's that'd be you just pouring water in the old old men and young kids that's what get looked after well that's it see survival instinct survivor this podcast would get boring more you you'd you'd just take over the podcasting bugging he'd be dead dogs you'd be dead you'd be dead you'd be dead no eaten no because I've got a plan you'd be eaten by the hamsters that you chased no I wouldn't I've got a plan I would always go hunting with him and then and then push him whatever whatever actual danger occurred I'd just like push him towards it and then hide and dog then I'd run I'd just grab the hamster and leg it and then push you well that's addressed something today it is something that you haven't over I don't think there's any hedgehogs in Salford Alright Dave I'd like to hear this ring RSPC eh I'd like to hear you bashing out how many hedgehogs do you see on the road well in general not many anyway that doesn't mean they're not there when was the last time you saw a dead head jog on the road in Salford I I'm gonna be honest with you I don't live here so I'm gonna say I don't think I ever have there you can be a smart case well what's that got to do with any no you don't see them it just came in we're talking about hamster how many how many like dead pigeons have you seen on the roads have you?

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Oh there's like a pigeon epidemic then isn't it well I think somebody's actually it is strange all about that nobody does pigeon fancy anymore do they pigeon fancy where's this going pigeon racing oh right oh pigeon racing do you remember pigeon fanciers yeah it needs competitions about this yeah do you remember Jardie Racer?

SPEAKER_00 28:46

You don't know Jardy Racer went to my head then when you said pigeon fancies it went to like is it a fetish fetish or something that's for sure that's to do with you that yeah is that me is that back you're that stepwork I'm gonna say yeah we need to go back on your stepwork that reminds me of some sort of animal fetish like when people like have you seen all the no we haven't seen whatever you're about to say be very careful because the answer's gonna be no we haven't seen it go have you seen all that have you seen that thing what people do now where they take people for a walk and that like horses all that all that oh yeah all that fetish stuff that's that's what I'm talking about like and in look so you think there's like people want to dress as pigeons people get a kicking brilliant people get a kick up all that sexually people get sexually aroused from from taking someone dressed as a pigeon costume at once no this has just got interesting I don't know what's going on yeah no you haven't got a pigeon costume at on but I was asking if you used to make it fucking wow no but when Dave said pigeon fancies then pigeon fancies my head just took a complete new used 160 degrees 180 it went south is what happened your head went to a very dark dark place pressed a few buttons it went boom you need to be careful what you come out with see this is because this is where it's like this is taking five minutes that's that's the old me coming out yeah pitch and fancy head yeah just just a bit fucking weird you know if you were waiting for some reassurance from me to say no you're not no no 100% I know I think your line is fucking what if I say I don't like pigeons I can imagine you're like silence of the silence of the lambs in front of a mirror dressed as a pigeon so pigeon pigeon makes a noise like that what the fuck is that fucking we're on the road here I need to go I need to get out of here I need to be town us don't dye in us not now not this amazing point yeah I've got to the world comes to an end in this is like a a good point of our career I feel this would be a good breaking off point now maybe to go somewhere else unless you want to carry on the I I don't mind sharing the podcast I meant more to do with the fact maybe breaking off this conversation. This is it now so bats are pigeon fancies back in the day so that's what the conversation went didn't it right people used to shoot pigeons that's not what you mean we were talking about head jobs weren't we were talking he was talking about pigeon fancy you mean you mean like pigeon racing pigeon racing and then I said Charlie racer no one acknowledged it because no one knew what it was and then you so so just forget that you heard me say anything about that I'm gonna say alright I've never heard of that oh do you think I'm editing this continue it no I'm not editing that I know you're not I know you're not this is this is anyway you were gonna say something about race you don't see that anymore you don't see it anymore certainly people walking greyhound down the street used to we used to have greyhounds when we were kids but then you started doing all the petitions to close the racetracks down and they have done yeah yeah there used to be people at Bellevue near me so people White City yeah white city retail retail part now there's one up in Salford that's close did that used to be a dog racing race oh yeah brilliant used yeah yeah young man my grandad would be like um so you you'd go up the racetrack and then you'd take your dog you'd put your dog in the kennels down the stairs and my granddad rather than just admitting that he was a cheater he'd he'd he'd go he'd give you some food I suppose you're telling us he'd give you some food and he'd go look at the feckin' dogs who've not been fucking fed go and fed them dogs not our dog because what he'd want you to do is go and feed all the other dogs so they were running a focus so they're running a full stomach yeah yeah yeah so I can understand maybe why they might have closed it down but I want your old granddad's neck they used to be good money in that didn't they oh honestly well the book not for me grandad's you mean for the bookies yeah oh yeah you'd have all the you'd have all you'd you'd have the actual it we I can't you can't explain it because it's not what you think it is it because it's where's the name come from White City no is that what it used to be called that's no there used to be an there's one near me called Bellevue race track there was one in White City retail park but it's now it's now a retail park on the on the traffic yeah yeah that that that both be arts race used to be the entrance I'm banned from White City meeting they would ever be shopping there they would have them in every stadium crafting them I know London had a white stadium I think I might still be going on yeah I think I think the closest I might be wrong here but I was going to go and someone told me the closest one was Sheffield.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Wouldn't surprise me anymore I know there were one in Colton and there was one in West Orton as well which was a smaller one.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Yeah but yeah it's become the all these old things old fashioned traits like uh pigeon racing well I got the end of greyhounds I got just the end of that greyhound racing and you'd be like you you you you'd but if you were having something to eat you'd sit upstairs with a little restaurant which was arguably not a restaurant but then you'd you know you'd have terraces like at the football and then you'd have all these men with flat caps on down at the bottom doing all the booking wouldn't you I never got to meet them only once every time I'd went to give them the money and then to never go and get any back because I never won. I was like I'm sure I've fed that dog lows why is he fucking one and I think I did the first time he gave me food I think I thought I'll just go and feed our dog.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Rag and bow men you don't see them anymore.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Yeah scrap vans yeah yeah anyway I'm not that old I'm just saying moving on well off topic now we have haven't we right moving on coal men coalmen used to pour it in your cellar as well didn't they're we used to have that little thing you pour down I wasn't even I wasn't even a theta censor no we had a cellar when we were kids for the Coleman but when my mum and dad bought the house they didn't realise it had a cellar and one day we come home we'd be Rob because someone just opened up the grid and gone in the cellar yeah not one of the brightest moments anyway moving on so I thought we could talk about rat fancy no I thought yeah so yeah I know all about that no so I thought um one of the things we'll we we we won't talk for too long we've waffled on for for quite a while now we so we'll talk I'm a busy man you know yeah we'll finish off now we wonder just a bit of an overview we'll well it's well it won't be all really short but it'll be short enough so what I wanted to talk about we said it we we we stopped something the other day we talked about not the other day but a while back when we were talking about detoxing and then it says stop there because we won't talk about recovery houses we'll do that now so when I want to talk about not specifically anyone but the concept of the recovery itself so we talked about detox and how it can but but then you go into well not necessarily but then people have the option to go into a recovery house or a residential rehab residential rehab so a lot of people won't know what that is and also again a lot of people I've said this before a lot of people might do a detox and think I don't need that house not that they've ever been to one or a residential they might just not go so let's talk about there's a few different types of rehabs you can do a res I think there's only sort of two residential one which is where you sort of go and and stay there or you can do like a daytime rehab where you can go and you can still stay at home but go and go and check in more about recovery homes where that's not that's not really it's not really it's not really recovery based for people in recovery a line yeah it's more of a clean house if you want to stay clean you get you get you get you get sort of piss test but you just you've got to take responsibility for your own recovery whereas in if you go to a residential rehab you don't know you get taught lots of stuff.

SPEAKER_03 36:30

So you so that so let's say so you've done your detox and then someone says right okay you can go to a rehab so what's what's the process then what wrapping then there's loads of different types of rehabs there's all around the country there these 12 step rehabs these these these rehabs for counselling these these therapeutic rehabilitation they're all different sort of ones they all work in all different ways but you you you go in you you get you're going away so you're moving away or you're going somewhere and you might have to give your phone in and your money in and you just and sometimes your house some what if you if you if you really want to which I don't advise people to to give up the flats these days because that's your own experience innit that's my experience you know how how the market's going now but it were better for me to give up mine because going back to where I was living there's not a good idea. Well again you can make those kind of choices as well so that is a good choice where you've got that you've got that so you can make that choice give it your flat or you can you can go and get back on that way.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

And how long did he last roughly or is it all depend all depends every everything everything's I mean what I don't mean roughly because I know that every one is different because I know some people who've been in for ages but the concept is they say right you can come in for however many weeks is that what they do six months.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Firstly it was three months because of uh you give them three months to see how you feel about it if you want to stay for three months and then but they do start before you come into the end of your three months then start asking you do you want to stay for another three months and if you're doing well you're gonna take that off some people don't and and most of them you correct me if I'm wrong on this but most of them would be will use something like this the the the 12 step framework so essentially something so that they'll they'll guide you into some sort of programme.

SPEAKER_03 38:16

You know what I mean and some can be more some are some are therapeutic so some are like in in the countryside where you you know you're all councillors and yeah whereas we do groups in Sharker they will do groups in house rather than they go into places.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Yeah but Blackburn they do they go to meetings but they do all their groups inside and they have people coming in. So we go somewhere in particular.

SPEAKER_03 38:43

So you want to tell people how how they'd get in touch with all that stuff. Well no not necessarily well we will do in a minute but the same same as a detox if through remember when we were talking about through you for your drug drugs drug workers if they're gonna get you into a detox you can sort of go into it you can get they can get you in touch with a rehab as well so so again and and also if if you're at the detox they'll they'll presumably reach out to people for you as well and they'll have connections in any way well yeah but you you find your connections so you know the re a lot of rehabs a lot of rehabs 12 step prehabs I know these load round manchester like like the one down the road yeah they they they they they force you to meetings and then because you're getting forced to meetings you sort of you sort of get in the swings of things and then then because you're forced into the meetings into the rooms when you get out of rehab you just continue that.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

So that's it really I think what I'm trying to say is is because there'll be some people who have never done it so they don't know what it is. Now I understand there's different concept of it but what what is it so for me if I was to say to someone they said what is what is a rehab I would say these people are going to essentially one way or another start helping to you to address why you are using drugs.

SPEAKER_03 39:49

So detox is to come off him and the the the the rehab detox is your neck below get rid of your drugs and your rehabilitation is for is for your head so you think about what does rehab rehabilitation that's what the word is in that in it rehab's just short yeah rehabilitation which is you're rehabilitating into a new kind of person yeah or into the person that you was you into the person that you're going to become it's about the change in it and that's what it means.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

I think we all acknowledged to some extent that detox can initially be rough as fuck on you initially that first going through the actual detox rough as tough again recovery house recovery houses or things like that they can be as well can't they mentally of course detox you you are given medication to make the withdrawal easier. Yeah make it easier yeah yeah but it but and this but and again but we're not trying to what we're trying to do with the detox was just to say listen this isn't going to be some apple pie and custard so you might want to trap yourself in. A lot easier than doing it on your own the same thing with recovery is what we're trying to say is well actually if you were to go into a recovery house which everyone it is it's probably not going to be there's different reasons as to my why it won't be walking the park because they're gonna make you address either through some kind of framework. But then also get to the nitty gritty of it there's also things like you know you're in a shared house a lot of the time with people you don't know you know with people who you don't know but have drug or alcohol issues. A lot of who are quite poorly themselves. Quite poorly themselves. Some can be disingenuous if I'm honest a lot of life skills that you learn that you forget by the way tolerance being one of it but living around a a a group of men a lot of people don't a lot of people is like towards the end of the used lifetime where you you start reintegrating into society now when shopping which people don't normally do you just go like read pizzas and flake and then but in this day and age now online shopping you don't need to leave the hospital you can pay all your bills online people don't need to so you guess you and it does most well from my experience with people it it does help you build what I supposed to be classed as like social support networks because although you might not get on with everyone who's in there you probably will get on with a wider wider group to some extent.

SPEAKER_03 42:21

Because when you you first come into a rehab you're forced to do a lot of stuff yeah yeah but because because of that getting forced get used to it and it becomes a lot easier and you just try you try and apply that into your life then you don't just get picked up and just dumped in a rehab you do discuss it before and you know what you're coming into.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

Yeah yeah it's not it's not a case of right you need to go there today now and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Yeah it's about how when you're gonna move in and all this other kind of stuff. I think the thing with a lot of it is it's a culture shock anyway it's a culture shock because you're living with people you don't know yeah some of them as a sense that disingenuous yeah um but no that that's not you won't know that until you get in there. Well that's why I'm telling them now to make sure that people the idea being that if you go in there and you think it's gonna be sunshine and the rainbows it's not but if you stick with it the other option is once you come out the other side of it it works. And again the same with detox that we would say well that's the initial part of detox can be pretty shit but stick with it yeah because it you come out the other side so I think it's important to say that best best best thing that I ever did and if you and if you're watching this and you want to go into a rehab you know trust me you know you're thinking about you'll you'll you'll thank us after it you'll thank us as long as you take heed of the fact that that initially there are going to be some adjustments and is you're not only dealing with your own issues in that house and I suppose that's a different if you're in a house with other people who all have their own issues and it's a shared shared rehab then unfortunately you're gonna have to manage some of theirs as well because that's just and that's just living with people anyway. I think it is growth because I think I think if if you right if you go in there at your weakest and you decide You want to make a proper change and you want to address issues and stuff. One of the least things you really need is stress. But you go in there and extra stress, and you and with that support, you're able to tackle that stress without drinking and using, and it's it builds it builds strength, strength of character.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

People with multiple years of clean time. Yeah, so just you're being shown that this works. Yeah, yeah. And and and it's all around you, and this this is part of your support system. You're not like I say, you're not just being picked it up and stuff right up it. It's a well-worn path that you're gonna go down. Yeah, you're gonna have to put work in. But if you if you're worth it, you'll work it.

SPEAKER_04 44:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

It does work. It's it's it'll give you a better life.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

Any last words? I'm not gonna shoot you. I meant like about you come near me dressed as a pitch and I'll shoot you.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

Oh falture. Please, please. You know, that's why I do it. You know, I want that attention.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

Any last words on anything? Well, good.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Believe in recovery. Recovery works.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

I'll say lastly, that it's a bit both of the structures today and the other day were a bit odd, but that's mainly because we've had to do one literally, we didn't have to, but we decided to do one two days after. So we'll go back to some kind of framework next week, so we won't go. Actually, get some some topics we've been at. But I think we address some topics, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think and I think we'll it'll be similar to what we've been doing because it's good that we go off on a tangent, not necessarily about pitchings. That's the goals, but uh I'd argue.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

I I I'll listen to the one online and we'll come across okay.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

Yeah. That's my editing now.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

Yeah, but well, yeah. But we're not we're not going to change the world then. If we change one person's life, we find recovery, this is all worthwhile.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

Definitely. And again, you know, if if just just to highlight, depending on how you're watching and what have you, you you can comment. If you've got questions, you can comment on videos, but you can also, if you are listening to some on somewhere like iTunes or anything like that, if you actually look at the description, there is a there's a link in all of them that says send us a message. So if you want a particular topic for us to talk about or anything like that, if you do that, it'll come straight to us. So if you have a topic you want us to discuss, or if you just privately want to reach out to us and say, actually, yeah, this is where I'm based, is there anything like that? Or we want to privately reach out and ask us.

SPEAKER_03 46:32

Well, some have reached out to us you'll have information on some outside sort of help. All that comment. Yeah, some reach out to us. We can always direct you to something, couldn't you? We could throw some.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Well, we've got again, we we we're we're believe it or not, quite professional. So we do have links uh with organisations both locally but and also nationally. And with that being said, I think if you've got any issues, we'll do our best to put you in contact with people. Um we can't do recovery for you, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_03 47:00

A lot of the help's out there anyway, you just gotta just gotta seek it yourself a bit.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Yeah, you've got to do a bit of self-seeking, but the reality of it is if you do enough self-seeking and then you haven't found anything, then and and you really want to make a change, then message us because we'll send you somewhere. If you've done a lot of fake self-seeking and you don't actually necessarily feel like you want to make a change, don't message me because I will find you somewhere anyway.

SPEAKER_03 47:21

If you're if you're in the Manchester area, you might be you might see us.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Well, if you're in the greater Manchester area, we do uh we do um every Tuesday and Thursday, uh we do a men's group at the rec in Salford, uh Tuesday, Thursday, 10 o'clock. Um, not everybody's people from recovery community, it's just the men's group that work out together. But you can be you can be part of our uh TFI audience here, couldn't you?

SPEAKER_03 47:46

Come to speak to one of us about recovery.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

Yeah, come and speak about recovery, that's what we're here for.

SPEAKER_03 47:50

I can always direct you to a to a specific um fellowship that you'd want to do, you know. I sort of know a lot of meetings and I know a lot of a lot of connections, you know, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

Yeah, and if lastly, I will say this, and you can put I think we've got a website now. So if you've got any issues with having a somewhat addiction to pigeons, uh if you visit pidginfancier.com uh you'll see my edge on the front page, they will support you.

SPEAKER_03 48:18

Support a pigeon.com I'm done, I'm done.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

There's no rodell, not rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_03 48:29

Well god.