Win Your Disability Hearing | The Disability Benefits Podcast #32

In this episode, we talk about the hearing and everything you can do to have the best chance of approval.

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Disability Consulting, LLC
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Disclaimer: We are a non-attorney firm. Our company specializes in representation for Social Security disability claims and is not a law office. The information provided in this video is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice. For legal guidance specific to your situation, please consult a licensed attorney.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Alright, the hearing. The hearing. You're gonna ask me specific questions about the hearing. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:03

I'm gonna ask you specific questions about the hearing. That is correct. So, yeah, just to recap, we did an episode months ago, I think it was like episode five, where we went over the hearing, and I just wanted to basically do a follow-up episode on that. Probably do it a little bit quicker. Um and but I'll say I'll use the same structure. So before we talk about the hearing itself, what are some things that the client should keep in mind building the case up until that point? Um, because you and I both know that the hearing is the make or break moment. That's you have the best chance to win your case, highest approval rating at the hearing level, but you also have many opportunities to tank your own case. And so before we actually get to that point, what are some pieces of advice you have for clients?

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Yeah, that's a great question. And the the number one piece of advice that I give folks when we're at the hearing level is let's make sure that all the information that we're sending to Social Security is is up to date, not just correct, but up to date. The the worst thing that you can do, well, one of the worst things that you can do in a hearing is go in there with your chest puffed out in you know the spring of 2026, and we haven't updated your medical records since the spring of two 2025. And the first thing that the judge is gonna ask is, have you seen anybody in last year? Yeah. Mr. Groves? Well, we we asked them and they said they hadn't seen anybody in the last year. Well, I I don't know if that's what you meant or not. Just, you know, keep us up to date on things at the hearing level. I don't know if we talked about this or not, which we probably should have. At the hearing level, as your representative, I am responsible for making sure that the record has all the medical records that need to be uh had for your disability hearing. So do I order them? Yes. Do I pay them? Good God almighty. I pay a lot of money every year for medical records. Yes, I pay for them. Um and unlike some firms, I don't bill you for it. I I just eat those costs. Um, but it's my responsibility, and because it's my responsibility, you got to keep me informed. You know, I I saw, you know, Dr. Smith two weeks ago. Okay, well, the hearing's in two weeks, so we probably have enough time to get those records in. And the great thing is when we get records in, they're usually in electronic format these days, and we have access to your file to where we can upload them instantaneously. It's literally a click on the button. We we fill in some dates of treatment and we fill in the date that we're submitting them, and we click a button, and boom, they are part of your record. So it's not difficult to do, but you gotta let us know. Um and we've said this a lot, and I'm just not gonna ever stop saying it that you need to trust the process. Um, we get to the hearing level, you definitely want to have the right attitude, and that is what is the purpose of the hearing level? They got my medical records? Yeah, they're probably gonna have, they're definitely gonna have the ones that you've been denied on in the at the initial and reconsideration level. They have those medical records. And if you've kept me updated and I've been doing my job, you have the medical records that have been updated in the last several months. They have those, and it begs the question well, why do I even need to go in there? They have my medical records, they have the rules, the Social Security law. Um, why do I have to go in there? Well, it is your only time that you get to in person, even though in person's these days, usually by phone, but you're talking in a conversation, you're not filling out of form. The conversation can go however it needs to go to get the right information, and for the judge to say, yeah, this this young lady, she she's she's telling me the truth. I can tell by the way she's testifying that she's telling me the truth. It is your only opportunity to do that. And you just brought up the statistical, what I consider, you know, the ringer. The the main allowance at the Social Security level, initial reconsideration, hearing, appeals counsel, hearing, it's the hearing level. Definitely. That's where the vast, vast, vast majority, and we're not talking just numerically, we're talking um uh percentage-wise. Do you think it's any coincidence that it's the only opportunity you have to have a conversation with the decision maker? I don't think it's any coincidence at all. I mean, it's the only time that you actually get to be questioned by the decision maker, the judge in this case. You get to answer however you want to answer because it's a conversation. You're not filling out a form. Um, if the judge needs more information, then the judge asks you a follow-up question. That never happens on a form. You know, if I think that your answer was somewhat vague or I don't even like your answer, when it's my turn to question you, I can come in and I can cross-examine you and say, you told the judge that you know, if you push yourself, you could, you know, you could carry, you know, up to 20 pounds. You know, when's the last time you pushed yourself and carried up to 20 pounds? Oh, Mr. Groves, I haven't done that probably in three years. Why? It hurts so bad if I even try to pick up five pounds. Okay, thank you. Right. You know, and that's the way that these hearings go. Um, it's no accident, no coincidence that the vast majority of cases that are won with Social Security are won at the hearing level. So back up to what you need to expect. You first of all, you need to trust the process, and we say that a lot, but you need to understand that there is a purpose for the hearing. It's your only opportunity to get to talk to a judge in a conversational way. And as such, take advantage of that opportunity. It pays off. Statistically, you can look at Social Security statistics. Statistically, your chance of winning your case never get better than when you're in front of a judge. Um, so take advantage of that, be prepared, make sure that your treatment is in line, that you've told me everything I need to know, that you know I have made sure that to update your file, and then make sure when you get into a hearing that you don't ramble. Um, you don't answer a question that hasn't been asked, you know. Well, you know, Miss Smith, I you know, I see that you have this problem with degenerative dyst disease, so I'd like to talk a little bit about your back. I am so depressed, Your Honor, that you know, I can't even concentrate on watching TV. Okay, well, we'll get to that. Well, I'm asking you about your back disorder right now. Well, you would not believe the problems that I have struggling with these headaches that I have, you know, every week. Okay, I mean if if that continues to happen in a disability hearing, um, it's really problematic because eventually the judge is just gonna stop paying attention. Um, it's gonna basically think you're being either just a rude person or you're deliberately being evasive. He's asking about the back, and for some reason you won't go there. You won't, you're you're talking about other things. So you're trusting the process and you go in there and you basically just answer the questions that are put to you. You want to answer things fully, but you don't want to ramble. And trusting the process means that if we need to talk about that problems with the press, those problems with depression, those problems with your headaches, and the judge is asking about your back, please trust the process. That if the medical record shows you got problems with depression and headaches, 90% of the time the judge is gonna get there. He's gonna ask you about them. And if he doesn't, that's that's why you know you've appointed me as your representative. Well, you told the judge about your back, and you know, that I see some problems with depression. You know, you have problems with concentration. Oh yeah, well, how long can you concentrate? You know, 15, 20 minutes, and then I, you know, my mind is shot. Oh what about these headaches? How frequently are you having those? I have two or three of them a week. Well, how long do they last? Three or four hours each. I will get on the record what needs to get on the record to win your case, and we've talked about this many times. I have a vested interest in winning your case. I'm not gonna let something just go by and not get handled in a hearing, um, you know, and just hope that the judge makes the right decision. I'm gonna do everything I can, including questioning you on things um that the judge didn't, so that the judge knows that you do have some problems with those. So, yeah, preparing for your hearing, know what it's for. You know, it's it is kind of the same thing as the initial and reconsideration um levels. Kinda, but it's your best chance to win, and it's all about how you present yourself. You know, are you gonna answer the questions that are put to you without going into left field? Yes, you are. You know, if it there's a yes or no question put to you, are you gonna answer it yes or no, or are you gonna start monologuing? And you know, and the judges hate that. I hate that when I ask you a yes or no question, you know. Answer it yes or no, because usually what's happening is after the yes or no answer, then we're going to ask you to give us an example. Ah, and now you have the opportunity to monologue and and expound on what's going on with you. Um that's big in a hearing. That's what we want. Yeah. We want to talk about, you know, the joke that I always make to my clients in prep. We want to talk about the big three things: symptoms, symptoms, symptoms. That's that's what we want to talk about in a hearing. So, yeah, I'm gonna get some yes or no uh answers from you, but I'm going to get you to describe your symptoms. I'm gonna get you to describe how your day-to-day life is impacted. So before the hearing, just trust that that's that's what we're there for. There is a purpose for it. It's a really, really um encouraging purpose because that is where most cases are won.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Yeah, and then just to frame it this way, it's what you're already talking about, but to frame it this way, a lot of claimants are pr they're feeling pretty defeated, pretty discouraged when they get to the hearing level just because it's they've already gotten two denials and it's been so long. Um just keep in mind, like this is what we've been gearing up toward. Hopefully we win it initial. Um if we don't win it initial, hopefully we can win it the appeal. But realistically, when we file a case, we are from the ground up, we're preparing for the hearing. And so you might be 14 months or 18 months or 22 months into this, and that's absurd. But just keep in mind, like we're here. This is really important, we've made it to this point. Um so I just wanted to frame it that way.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Yeah, and it it is absurd. And I know that this doesn't make it any better, but you know, it's absurd for you and the at any given time, well, I don't know, 250,000 people in the United States who are in the same boat. Yeah. Just because you're you're waiting in it, just in our area, and we live in a kind of a mid-sized metropolitan area, um, even in our area, we have two hearing case two hearing offices that are within 20 miles of each other, and each of them have like 5,000 pending cases. So just in our area, not my state, but just our our area, and we're not a huge area. 10,000 cases are are pending. And statewide, I don't know at the hearing level. I do know at the lower levels at any given time statewide, there's about 130,000 cases pending at any given time. So it it's it's precious little comfort to you to tell you that other people are having to wait a stupid long time. But the fact of the matter is that other people are having to wait a stupid long time. Yeah. And that's that's that's part of um the Social Security disability process.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Yeah, I think it's important to understand that just because it's taking a long time, that doesn't mean that something is going horribly wrong. I think we have a lot of clients after three months of their case pending, they're like, what's going on? What's wrong with the case? Right. And it is ridiculous, but there's nothing wrong with the case. It's just they're understaffed. There's more disabled people than there are Social Security workers to be able to process that. Oh, sure. So three months in, that doesn't surprise us. It, you know, it ticks us off, but it doesn't surprise us. We see that all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Well, think about the the the stats that I just gave you about our hearing office. So both of those hearing offices, I believe the full staffing is ten judges. And I know for a fact that they hear anywhere from six to seven cases a day, not every day, but six or seven cases a day. You know, best case scenario, think about that. You got 5,000 cases pending, and in a week you're able to get about 400.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

You're able to clear out about 400 with a fully staffed hearing office. And there's going to be that many cases coming from the lower levels, because the lower levels, you know, they they did deny the vast majority. And uh and if you are persistent, which again, that's the secret to disability, if you're persistent, you're appealing and it's going to the hearing level and it's going to be stuck in that queue with the other 5,000 people. Right. Maybe more if you're in a really large metropolitan area. Um, but yeah, trusting the process and knowing what you're there for. Um, you know, you were there to uh tell the judge your symptoms and your symptoms as they apply to your day-to-day life. How does that how does that how do whom how do my systems impact my ability to cook, to clean, to drive, to shop, to interact with people? You know, do I want people coming over to my house? Well, no, I'm I'm I I feel so bad about things, I don't want to interact with anybody. Don't want them to see me, don't want them to talk to me, and I don't want to talk to them. Stuff like that. Okay, that's you know, this is your opportunity to get to talk to a judge about that. What this is not an opportunity for, and I I definitely want to put this out there, and we see it from time to time, thank goodness not a whole lot, but we do see it from time to time, that because the claimant can choose their manner of appearance, and we've talked about, you know, since uh February of 2020, I think I've had five face-to-face hearings. Before COVID, you know, almost every case, I went in, I put on a suit, and I went in and presented the case face-to-face. That's kind of how they were. And then in COVID, that changed, and they started doing phone hearings, and the administration realized that their um accuracy rate was not impacted at all. The judges liked it for the most part. There are some judges that like putting on the robe and being seen. Okay. Um, but most of the judges like being able to just hang out at their house and um and have the hearing. Representatives, for the most part, like to hang out at their house and then do hearings by phone. Um, so that that has basically become the default um manner of appearance by phone. But you can do it by video. Um, they use Microsoft Teams, which rarely works. And then you can, you have the absolute right, you as the claimant, have the absolute right to have a face-to-face hearing if you want. And what we have found is if you some claimants, if they are so angry that they were denied at the initial, and then again at the reconsideration level, they request a face-to-face hearing. And of course, I work for you, you don't work for me. You know, I can advise you, hey, listen, you know, I live 400 miles from you, and um it's gonna be a hardship for me to get there. Why do you want to have a face-to-face hearing? And then it's almost always the same thing. I want to look somebody in the eye, these people who've denied me, and I'm like, oh, let's slow down. Let's slow down and let's calm down. Because is that why you want to go in? You want to give the judge a piece of your mind, let them know. You realize that the judge had nothing to do with the lower level denials. Some of the first words out of the judge's mouth mouths are gonna be, I am not bound by those decisions, I am not even influenced by those decisions. Because he or she didn't have anything to do with those decisions. And he then he's gonna say, or she's gonna say, and I'm here to make a new independent decision based on the medical records, your testimony, and social security law. Yep. It is it's it's its own animal, it is not influenced by the fact that the lower levels denied you twice, and you come to a hearing wanting to get a pound of flesh from the judge for those denials. One, you won't be able to. It won't happen. And two, if you open your mouth and just start giving them grief about how stupid Social Security is and how evil they are for denying you, you've lost your case. That's just gonna happen. You're gonna lose because we're not there to basically, you know, berate Social Security. Social Security judges, they're not there to be punching bags for you because you're angry that you got denied at the lower levels. And so if I get even the inkling that the reason you want a face-to-face hearing is so you can let the judge have it, I'll probably quietly but professionally bow out after telling you you do this, and you know, it's just it's a it's a fool's errand. You you do this, what you think is gonna happen, that you're gonna get through to them now. They're gonna see how mad you are, they're gonna see the damage that those lower-level decisions did to you and your family, that somehow that the judge is gonna take responsibility for that. He had nothing to do with it, it's not gonna happen. So after I try to convince you, man, if that's the reason you want a face-to-face hearing, um, I don't want any part of it, um let's do a phone hearing. And if you're like, nope, I want a face-to-face hearing, I will probably just withdraw from your case. Yeah. Because there is really no place in in a hearing um for that kind of, you know, I'm you know, I'm gonna let them have it and stuff like that. I've had I've had some claimants in the hearing threaten the judge.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

And um it's it doesn't go over well. Ever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Yeah. There's a zero percent um success rate when when you basically, you know, want to threaten the judge. I had one one judge uh here face to face long before COVID hit. And um my client had some per he had a diagnosis of a personality disorder, but there was really nothing in the file that showed that he was violent or or anything like that. And um the judge was questioning him um about, you know, you know, what are some of the symptoms you have from this personality disorder? And he's like, Well, like right now, you know, I'm so angry. And the judge is like, well, okay, all right. Well, I mean, what's going on? You know, well, I'm so angry, um, I'm I'm feeling like coming across this table and just punching you right in the face. And I'm sitting next to my client and I looked at him like this, and then I looked at the judge. The judge never even looked up, and he said, I highly recommend that you don't do that because I won't just sit here. I'm like we lost the case. Um and afterwards, I'm like, why why did you tell the judge you wanted to go punch him in the face? Oh, that's just the way I felt. And you felt the need to share that with him. Okay, well, you know, I don't think it's gonna go well for us. And like two weeks later we got the denial. Are you gonna appeal my case? No. No, you testified that you wanted to punch somebody in the face for no reason. No, I'm not gonna appeal your case. But anyway, it goes nowhere. Um, if you think that having a face-to-face hearing, um, you're just gonna get your case uh your point across or your case across or your symptoms across better. I would say 99% of the time that's not true. I think we've talked about this since COVID. I have had one case, just one, where I felt that if we'd have been face-to-face, it probably would have gone better. My lady had uh my client, she had um horrible veriscosities in her legs. Yeah. And um, and the hearing was held in summertime, but they weren't doing face-to-face hearings. COVID had just hit. I think this is probably 2021. And um, if we would have gone in and it was summertime, I would have asked her to wear shorts, you know, just so when you walk in, the judge sees her legs are gray. Like from the thigh down, her legs are gray. They kind of look like somebody's done makeup on the walking dead on her legs. It's it's horrible. Um, and um, but we had a phone hearing, and uh so I ended up uh arguing for that, and we lost the case, and I appealed it by you know asking her, take some photos, just you know, take a photo with your phone, email it to me, I'll upload it to the file. And um that case is still wending its way through federal court right now. But I think maybe, I don't know, but maybe that would have helped if we had a face-to-face hearing. But for the vast majority of cases, like I said, 99% the having the hearing by phone is just as good as having one face-to-face. And again, if you want one face to face, it's your right. And if I think you're you're giving me a good reason for it, you know, I will fly or drive to wherever that hearing is and I will present it because I have presented, you know, several uh face-to-face hearings, um, not many, but I think five. Um, and they're they're all that I had to travel to, yeah, you know, to to do. But I will say of those five, none of them were necessary. You know, we could have done it by phone, and it was hardship for everybody. And but yeah, back to my point. The the purpose for a hearing is not for you to grieve or to uh air your grievances with Social Security. Um keeping in mind that if I appealed your case to the hearing level, that was uh an airing of our grievances. You know, the the denial was unjust, we don't agree with it, we want a hearing before an administrative law judge. We don't want a hearing before an administrative law judge to re-argue with the lower level that denied you because they're done. What I'm gonna do now is I'm gonna argue the facts of the case, and my client is gonna testify to the symptoms that they have, and you, a new and independent decision maker, is gonna get to hear these facts for the first time, and you're gonna be able to make a decision based on better evidence than just the paper file that the lower levels denied my clients on. That's the purpose. And again, going back to our question at hand, you know, how do you prepare for a hearing? Know what its purpose is. You know, the purpose is not I'm gonna stick it to them, I'm gonna I'm gonna let them no, no. You know, that's that's over, you know. And those the lower levels that they did what they do, and it's nationwide. There are some some lower levels that that allow more than others, but for the most part, at the initial and the reconsideration level, it's a paper review. You fill out some forms, they get your medical records, and they make a decision, which is usually pretty garbage. Yeah um that's you know that's just the way it is. I don't like it, but that that's the way it is. And the hearing is a whole new monster. It's it's not like that. It is not just a pay-per-review, it's a place where you get to interact with a decision maker in real time, whether it's by phone or video or face-to-face. You get to interact with them in real time, you get to have a conversation with them, they get to follow up questions, they get to get asked questions to clarify things, which is wonderful. You don't get that on a form forum. You wrote something on a forum, they're well, did she mean this or did she mean that? I don't know. You know, well, in a hearing, you know, wait a minute, you know, did you mean this? Well, I meant, and then you explain. It's like, okay, we're having a conversation. You're getting your the the information across so much better. And um, again, just look at the statistics. They don't lie. And your your chance of winning never gets better than it is at the hearing. Therefore, take advantage of it. You know, don't go at it in a very adversarial mad way. Go at it. I'm gonna explain myself. I'm gonna tell you what my symptoms are. I'm gonna tell you what my life has been like for the last two or three years or however long you've been disabled. Um and then when I cross-examine you, I'm gonna make sure that you get those points across to the judge to the judge.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Yeah. Yeah, good. Okay. So to wrap up, why don't you go over logistically how what the hearing is actually gonna look like? So client gets the phone call, and now we're actually in the hearing, just for a couple minutes, just go over what they what the client can expect so it's not such a daunting process.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Great question. Yeah, I I call it the mechanics. And you know, we'll back up a little bit, like a week before the hearing, not not necessarily seven days, but usually the week before the hearing. If you have a hearing on a Tuesday, I might call you on a Friday. So it's gonna be the week before, but maybe not the Tuesday before your Tuesday hearing. But I'm gonna call you and I'm gonna tell you this stuff. And it's basically I call it the prep preparation. Um, I'm gonna tell you the mechanics of the hearing, because that's the big thing that you need to know. You know, what's it what's it like? What's it look like? So, yes, the day of the hearing, the morning of the hearing, or the afternoon of the hearing, whenever your hearing time is, around that time, you're gonna get a phone call. It's gonna either say it's from Social Security, SSA, it's gonna say it's from the U.S. government, or it's gonna be an area code that you don't recognize. You answer the phone. If your hearing's at 11 o'clock and at you know 10:53, the phone rings, please answer the call because it's probably Social Security. And if it's not, if it's you know, cousin Betty and Cousin Betty, I can't talk to you right now, Social Security's gonna be calling me. Um I'll call I'll call you back soon. You know, hang up the phone, clear the line so when Social Security calls you, you answer. So when you answer, the clerk who's handling the case, it's the judge's clerk, will say, you know, hello, you know, I'm so and so with Social Security. We're we're here to to start your 11 o'clock hearing. Um, Mr. Groves is already on the line. And the reason that I'm almost always are already on the line is they call me first because they double check your phone number. And they're like, you know, we have Miss So and so's phone number is this, and I'm like, yeah, that's that's I talked to her last week, and that is her correct number, and it's the number that we give them, actually. So Mr. Groves is already on the line. Uh are you ready for your hearing? And then, you know, you as the claimant will say, Yeah, I'm ready for my hearing. All right, well, let me connect you to the judge. And the judge is usually the last one to get connected. It's just a conference call. And so when that happens, the judge will come on and say, Well, hello, you know, my name is Judge So and so, and I'm here to make a new and independent decision uh based on your medical records, your testimony today, and um and the uh Social Security law. I'm not bound by the lower decision uh uh the lower level decisions, I'm not even influenced by them. So it always happens. And the judge's main questions after he swears you in. It's the only formal thing, by the way, in a hearing. You say you do get sworn in, he will ask you, even though we're on the phone, please raise your right hand. You do promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God, or do you promise tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the whole truth, under the penalty of perjury? That'll be the oath that they're asking you to take. And you'll say, You do. There's another person in the hearing, which we'll talk about in a minute, who also is going to get sworn in. Um, and then the judge will almost always come out of the gate asking you about identifying information. You know, how old are you? Um how far do you go in school? Um, are you married? Who all lives in your household? Oh, you have three kids. What are the ages of your kids? Um, and then the judge might ask you some questions about, you know, what what does your spouse do? You know, do you help your children with their schoolwork, stuff like that? But the main meat and potatoes of his next part, his next questions are going to be about your work. You know, when's the last time you worked? What were you doing? Describe it. And of course, what you want to do is you want to describe the job as you did it. You know, I was a mechanic, you know. Well, how much did you lift and carry? And well, I there's sometimes I'm lift lifting or helping to lift, you know, hundred-pound, you know, pieces of engine. Yeah. Oh, okay. Do you have to be on your feet all day long? Yeah, I didn't do any sitting at this. Sometimes I'm on my back underneath the car, but yeah, it's basically I'm on my feet all day. That's what you want to do. Um, if it was a desk job, um sit down most of the day, yeah, yeah. Um do you have to make you know lots of decisions? Yeah, do you have to use your arms and hands, you know? Yeah, it's a sit-down job. That's that's what you do. You're using your arms and hands all day long. And um wants to know if you had to concentrate on that. Most desk jobs, you know, are uh ones that you do have to do a lot of thinking, a lot of decision making, stuff like that. So he's asking you about those things and you want to describe them as you did them, not as you would try to do them now that you're disabled, as you did them when you were working, before you became disabled. Um after that, it's the only part that I can't tell you exactly what happens because there's usually a turn to me or the judge just continues. And the turn to me or the judge continuing will be for your medical conditions. And they will say something. Okay, well, let's now let's talk about you know why you feel you're disabled. And they'll go through everything they're supposed to. In fact, the law says that they have to consider everything that the medical records show. Um, so if the judge does it, that's what they're gonna do. Well, you know, let's start with the back disorder. You know, you have any difficulties being on your feet? Oh, okay. Well, how long could you stand or walk before you'd have to sit down? You having difficulties sitting? Oh, okay, you have to get up and work out the kinks? Okay, well, how long can you sit before you have to do that? Oh, okay. And um, if it's a mental health uh, you know, do you have any difficulties concentrating, staying on task? Oh, well, how long could you concentrate before your mind would wander? So they're gonna ask you these kinds of questions unless they turn it over to me to ask it. And this is the one, about half the cases they do. They turn it over to me to ask the medical questions. And guess what? I'm gonna ask just the same thing. You have difficulties being on your feet, you have difficulties concentrating, you have difficulties staying on task, you have difficulties using your arms and hands. So, and we're gonna talk about these things. These none of this will be a surprise to you because a week before the hearing, I will have talked to you and said, This is what the judge is probably gonna ask you, this is what I'm definitely gonna ask you. And so that is the meat and potatoes of your hearing, talking about your medical conditions. And remember, what are we there to talk about? Symptoms, symptoms, symptoms. I don't care that you have degenerative disc disease. Well, I care, but I don't care that much. I do care that because of that, you can't walk for very long. You can't be on your feet for very long. You can't sit with your feet flat on the floor like you would be sitting at a desk typing. I I care about that. I care that there's pain shooting into your leg and that your pain level is at like a seven or eight out of a ten-point scale. I care about that. That's all symptoms, and that's those are the questions I'm gonna ask you. Sitting, standing, walking, lifting, carrying, pain, stuff like that. So we're there to talk about those three things symptoms, symptoms, symptoms. Same thing with mental health, concentrating, staying on task, following through on things, getting along with other people, adapting to changes. You have your boss comes to you, you know, one o'clock in the afternoon and says, I need you to do this, and your mental health condition is like, you switch gears on me in the middle of the day, and I'm gonna shut down. Okay, we need to know that. That's that's a symptom that you would you would want to talk about in your hearing, and we will talk about that. Right. So that's the that's the bulk of the hearing. And then at the end, there's that other person that I talked about who also gets sworn in. They're a vocational witness. Uh, Social Security calls them a vocational expert. I normally won't, but sometimes just for shop talk, we'll call them a VE, which stands for vocational expert. But I I rarely will I rarely will call them an expert in the hearing, especially because the judge usually wants me to call them one an expert before they've even opened their mouths. I'm like, you know, if they say all sorts of garbage, I don't want to have pinned myself in a corner or painted myself in a corner and like, wow, they're they're testifying all sorts of garbage. Um I know none of that's true, but yet I've told the judge, yeah, I agree they're an expert. Anyway, but the vocational witness, I I tell my clients that they're not a good guy, but they're not a bad guy. They are not against me. In a Social Security disability hearing, there is nobody against me. I am an advocate for you. And therefore, because you've watched Perry Mason and Law and Order, you know that there's got to be somebody, you know, against me. If I'm for you, somebody's got to be against you. No, not in a disability hearing. So the vocational witness is not there to tank your case, but he's not there to help you either. Yeah, he's there to talk about jobs, and the judge, because it is sworn testimony, will have already likely sworn him in and will ask some questions. You know, can you classify the claimant's past work? And they'll give some codes and um and some strength levels. And then um they'll ask a series of hypotheticals, and they're all about you, the claimant, but that for some reason Social Security doesn't believe that they can ask questions about you like that. You know, so they'll say somebody the claimant's age, 45 years old, and somebody with the claimant's education, they have a 12th grade education, and somebody with the claimant's uh work history, they were a mechanic for 30 years. If this person was limited to, and then they'll give lots of limitations, and they'll ask the vocational witness, could that person perform uh the mechanic job? Um, oh no. Okay, well, could they perform any job in the national economy? And that there's going to be a yes or no answer. Yeah, there if there's a yes answer, well, give me those jobs, give me a smattering, give me an example, give me three of them. I mean, give me three jobs that have that that um profile that I just gave you. Um, and that's damaging. That's a bad thing. You know, if we get those, now the judge has an avenue to deny your case, but then the judge is probably gonna ask a second hypothetical question to the vocational witness. It's gonna be, you know, same question, but now they're limited in blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Could that person do the mechanic job? Okay, what about could they do any job in the national economy? No. Ah, okay. Well, well, if the judge goes with that decision, that's favorable to you, because if you can't do any work, you are by definition disabled. Yep. Um, and that that part of the hearing is about 10 to 15 minutes long. It's very boring for my clients because you don't participate. You're listening, you know, if you're on the phone, you're listening, um, and you're hearing all sorts of stuff, but really um you're not doing anything. And after the judge has asked a series of questions, I'm gonna cross-examine them. I might ask my own series of questions, or I might ask them to defend um the testimony they gave, especially if the testimony they gave is garbage. Um, and sometimes it happens. Most of the time, it's not garbage, but it's certainly um something that I can attack with a with a follow-up um cross-examination question. Um, and like I said, it's boring for the claimant because you know, they're not speaking, they're not testifying, it's they're just kind of listening in. And then after all that happens, the judge will give kind of a canned phrase like, Well, thank you for the hearing, thank you for appearing. I'm gonna consider everything, and I will issue a decision within the next 60 to 90 days, you know, and that concludes our hearing, and everybody can hang up. And then that's that's the hearing. They last 40 to 45 minutes on average. A quick hearing is 30 minutes, a long hearing is an hour. Um, it'll fly by though. I, you know, most of my clients say, Well, that that didn't take very long. It was 45 minutes. It didn't seem like 45 minutes, no, because we're having a conversation, you know, it just kind of flies by. But that is, that's the mechanics of it. Um, the what I like about the phone hearings is they're normally pretty close to being on time. Um, and what I mean by that is sometimes they're you know five or ten minutes early, and sometimes they're five or ten minutes late. In the olden days when we were doing face-to-face hearings, I could be in a hearing office uh all day long. I, you know, some of the hearings will run three hours late. And I'd just be sitting there with my client and they're like, you know, what our hearing was was three hours ago. I know, but we have to sit here and wait. That has not happened with the phone hearings. You know, some of them have been like 30 or 45 minutes late, but usually the clerk will call and call my office, you know, and they'll talk to one of my uh employees, you know, tell Mr. Groves that we're running late and we're probably gonna be another 15 or 20 minutes. And then I can call my client. They say, hey, listen, you know, I know they you've been expecting to call, so was I. They just called and they're running really late, and therefore they'll be calling you in probably the fifth 15 or 20 minutes. And that has happened a few times, handful of times, but you know, the other hundreds of hearings that I've had since COVID have all pretty much run on time. And mechanically, I prefer them. Um it seems like the conversations are a little bit clearer because nobody's talking over anybody, because you can't on the phone. You know, if yeah, if two people are talking on a phone, it's cacophony. Whereas two people talking, you know, over each other in a hearing, you you can kind of follow it face to face. But the judge usually warns about that, you know, please make sure that I'm done asking my question before you answer it. And uh, and I will tell you that also in the prep. You know, don't talk over anybody, make sure that they're done talking. Um, don't interrupt. Please, please, please don't interrupt. If the judge is asking a question or the judge is saying something, certainly if the judge is asking the vocational witness questions at the end, don't jump in, well, that's you know, I can't do that job. That no, that's that's not your time to speak. It's you know, it's it's a vocational witness's time to speak. So please don't jump all over them. It will not go well for you. Yeah. You know, you'll you'll probably get your hand slapped, you know, a verbal a verbal hand slap from the judge, you know. Um and you don't want that because it's you know it's it's uncomfortable for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Right. Okay, good. Well, last thing I'll say, I'll just mention the hearing prep video that we have. It goes over a lot of the same stuff, but it's a little bit more in detail. Uh it's about thirty minutes long, and I'll attach that to this episode. I'll just put it in the description. Excellent. All right, cool. All right, thanks. If you have a question about your disability case, drop it in the comment section below, and we will do our best to answer it in the next episode.