Does SSA Look at Declining Earnings? | The Disability Benefits Podcast #34

In this episode, we talk about getting your disability benefits as an amputee and how reaching Maximum Medical Improvement affects your case.

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Disclaimer: We are a non-attorney firm. Our company specializes in representation for Social Security disability claims and is not a law office. The information provided in this video is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice. For legal guidance specific to your situation, please consult a licensed attorney.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Good. Okay. This will be a continuation of last episode. I was going to go through all three questions, but we got kind of sidetracked and stuck. And by we, you mean me. I can get it. I can get it. It was good. It was just a little bit long. Okay. Next question. Does SSDI, well, does Social Security look at declining earnings to help make a decision, like going from $60,000 per year to $40,000, and then the last year worked $20,000 after working 25 years at the same job? And they do they look at attendance?

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Fantastic question. And I am very pleased to tell you, yes, they do consider that. There's actually a law, and I can't cite it because it's a it's a court case law. So I don't remember it offhand. But there is a law in Social Security that if somebody's making you know bank, if they're doing really, really well, and then you see the years start dwindling, and then you know, the year they become disabled, you know, they've they've their earnings have gone down, you know, 90%, and then they're just not working at all. Do they consider that? Absolutely. That is so indicative of um not just a disabled person, but a disabled person who was busting their bucket to just kind of stay in the workforce. Um so yes, they do. And the reason is this, you know, to get a disability check is a fraction of what you're earning. Okay. Your earnings are always going to be, you know, multiples of your disability check. Um and that's, of course, that's the way that it was designed back in you know 35, 1935 when Social Security was created. Um it was designed, it's kind of it's gonna be a fraction, you know. If you get a check for retirement, it's gonna be a fraction of what your earnings were. If you get a disability check, it's gonna be a fraction of what your earnings were. And the law is based on this. No reasonable person is gonna go from $80,000 a year to a disability check unless they're disabled. No reasonable person would do that. You don't you don't walk away from money. Um, reasonable people don't do that. That's indicative of disability. So, yeah, great question. But they that that my happy answer is yeah, they actually it's very logical and they do look at that.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Aaron Powell How do they look at it logistically? Like is it gonna come up on the earnings report and then they just look at it that way, or when we're filing a case, do we actually need to put in a note about declining earnings or would are they just gonna end up finding that?

SPEAKER_01 2:40

The only time that that we would really get involved and wanted to would want to you know do some serious research is if their onset um was you know a year ago, um, but they tell me, you know, yeah, I I just I had to leave, you know, the a year ago. Okay, did it just you know, was there a trauma that there's an you know you were earning this much, you had to quit. Oh no, no, no, Mr. Groves, you know, I was earning this much, and then I had to cut my hours. And oh well, when did you cut your hours? And that can can actually um be something that affects your onset date because once you cut your hours and you get below the SGA level, you get below to where Social Security finds you gainfully employed, and you there is a there is a level there. Um that can be your onset. It doesn't have to be the day that you actually left. I'm not making anything now. Okay, well what what were you making before then? I I was working like 20 hours a week. Oh, okay. Well, how much were you making an hour? And they tell you, and and I'll do some math, and that yeah, you were below the limit. You know, when did that happen? Well, that happened about six months earlier. Okay, well, that's probably your onset date then. That's where you you became disabled. Um, the mechanics of that would be your pay stubs. Um just a quick um I'll go as quick as I can. A quick um uh education on the way Social Security sees earnings. What how do they get them? They get them from the IRS. And so if you've reported, you know, $80,000 in uh 2023, um, and then all of a sudden it's you know $55,000 in 2024, and then it goes down to like $8,000 in 2025. And you were to say, you know, I became disabled in you know September of 2025. That makes sense. Okay, that yeah, you had some earnings, yeah, but you know, later in that year you you became disabled. So they and that's how they see it. They see it in two ways. They see it um at yearly report from the IRS and then quarterly reports, which I believe also comes from the IRS, and it'll actually show which quarter you had earnings in. Yeah, and if you um you had no earnings in like the last quarter of 2020 in the in the in my example, last quarter of 2025, um that makes sense that yeah, okay. And sometimes you have some lag earnings, like if they owe you for leave or um there's some kind of I don't know, disability package, you know, long-term disability, they were paying you a portion of your salary. Were you working? No. Well then you weren't employed, and and that can actually be a part of your disability. Um so yeah, that's a great question. But that is how they look at it. They they get these these queries, is what they call them. Um, and there's there's really two of them. There's a summary, um uh sequi, which is basically S, a summary of the the query, earnings query, and um it basically is years. And then they have the dequee, and that's detailed earnings query. Sounds like a Star Wars character. And the dequy um actually, when you read it, it's pages long. You know, you put you worked for Target, and this is how much you made at Target, and you worked at, you know, Walmart, and this is how much you made at Walmart. It's it actually has the details of um of those earnings. So that's my long answer to your another short question.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Yeah. I I see it pop up all the time where I ask a client, when's the last time you worked? And they'll say, you know, February of this year. And my follow-up question is, Did you work pretty consistently up until that point? And then they'll say, Well, no, I you know, I tried to go back to work in February, and then it turns out that they were working full-time up until October.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

And then they were out a month, they were out of work for four months, and they went back in February for like a week or two. It's like, okay, well, then we're not gonna say that you became disabled in February if you've been out of work full-time since October.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

And it is in their best interest, and of course, because our our fee comes from their back pay, it's in our best interest to give you the most favorable onset. And that that's ex we see that happen all the time. You know, when did you become disabled? Well, in February. Okay, just stop working in February. No, I really haven't worked since October. Well, well, they were paying me, you know, I had leave and and I, you know, I was working a day a week. When did you stop making this amount of money? Oh, that was probably October. Um, okay, all right. That yeah, that's when your onset date is. And uh so if you've you you're ever wondering why we're so con consumed with that, is it makes a big difference on your back pay. And it makes a big difference on when you're going to be eligible for Medicare, if it's a SSDI case. Um, you know, there's there's that waiting period, and then for Medicare, there's you have to be disabled for you know 24 months plus the five-month waiting period. So you have to be disabled for 29 months. If I can get the onset back, you know, five, six, seven, eight months, it can make a really big difference in when you're actually getting medical coverage.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Yeah. Okay, good. Next question. Uh, this person in the comment section says, love the videos. Could you do one about things like mener's disease or meneres disease? Just Meneers. Meneer's disease or limitations of vertigo. I've been suffering from this for two and a half years, as well as degenerative disc disease and knee and shoulder problems. Heavy construction past or past work all my life, and I'm 58 and a half years old. So this will be a good opportunity to talk about vertigo, like I was saying. We've talked a lot about degenerative disc disease and and shoulder problems. Sure. But I had I don't know a whole lot about vertigo and what the I know what vertigo is, but I don't know what would be like the follow-up questions for the symptoms and stuff like that. So manires and vertigo are it's like an inner ear thing, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

They're vestibular uh disorders, which is your inner ear. Um Vertigo literally means that you would be uh having difficulties with balance. Meneers would be the same thing. Um you'd kind of feel like you're swooshing. I mean, that's the word that is used. You know, it's kind of I there's a there's a swooshing in my head. Balance problems. Um uh people with horrible men ears um walking from the living room to their bedroom, they're probably gonna have to w hug a wall. Yeah. You know, it falls are very frequent in um in meners. Now, vertigo, um if you're diagnosed with vertigo, uh there's a good chance that your doctor's gonna restrict you from driving because vertigo, um you could you know fall out. I mean, you just you just you just whoa, you you you get so disoriented that if you're driving a car, you know, you you might wake up in a ditch. Yeah. So the way that we handle those is obviously the number one. We we hammer this, and I don't feel guilty about saying it all the time because it's so necessary. Medical records, your treatment records are the number one thing that we're going to be looking at. Um, how frequently are you seeing your doctor for vertigo or how frequently you're seeing them because of your menirs? Are you on medication? Is the medication helping you? Usually it's like an anti-nausea medication. So I don't know if it you know really necessarily helps with your balance and your disorientation, but you know, you won't you won't get sick to your stomach, maybe. But what kind of medication, what kind of treatment, what kind of things do you avoid? You know, are you not driving anymore? Um the big thing is is when we interview you, we'll probably, if you you know, remember our headache or migraines um podcast that we did, yeah, a diary is extremely helpful in the these instances. And you gotta think about that. And Social Security for the most part is pretty reasonable about okay, well, they didn't go to an ER every time that they had balance problems. Well, no, because they don't have the $500 to pay the ER every time they walk in the door. So if they've um had balance problems and they caught themselves or they were sick to their stomach, um, you know, they just kind of stayed at home and you know, shut themselves up to where they were were down, sitting down or lying down uh to where they wouldn't lose balance and fall and injure themselves. Um go to the ER every time. Well, if that's the case, then we need some kind of documentation that it's happening and that how frequently is it happening? Well, the way you do that, you just write it down. You know, March 17th, I you know I had another vertigo episode. Um luckily my wife was with me and she caught me. You know, I was about to fall. Um so diaries are very helpful. And again, you might think that that's kind of a Mickey Mouse approach to you know proving your case. Um, no, it's not. I mean, if I can provide um Social Security, even up to a judge with a diary that you've been keeping over the last 12, 18, 24 months, and I'm like, okay, well, you know, my client has these bouts of vertigo or has b these balance problems from manires or these nausea episodes to where she's actually vomiting. Um they're having those four times a month, and the way that they they deal with that is they're shutting themselves off, they're down, they're either sitting or lying down for you know eight hours at a time. Could such a person work if you were going to be missing work four days a month? Nope. Nope. You can't, you know, that's one day a week, by the way. Nobody's gonna hire you full-time. Say, well, I'm you know, I won't be coming in one day a week because I've got some medical problems, you know. Or if you're working and you're missing one day a week, they're gonna fire you. Right. So, yeah, good question though. It's um treatment notes um are important, but it's it's not reasonable that you go to the ER, you go to the doctor every time you have a bout of of uh vertigo or or when you're suffering from menires. You're gonna have some treatment records, you gotta have those, but a diary is really the best uh documentation that we can have in those conditions.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Vertigo seems to be similar to things like headaches, migraines, and even seizures to an extent. Sure. Where there's not gonna be like a specific test that's gonna show that you have a headache and you're not gonna go to the hospital every time you have a headache. So, yeah, these diaries or take keeping a journal, that's kind of what I was thinking as well.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Yeah, and you have to have the diagnosis. Like, you know, if you have headaches and you're diagnosed with migraines, Social Security is going to expect, okay, well, somebody with a diagnosis of migraines is gonna have this and they're gonna have been prescribed this kind of medication, and they're gonna have to shut themselves off in a cool, dark, quiet room. Um if you, you know, if you have dizzy problems, that's that's not as convincing as the actual diagnose of menires or the actual diagnosis of vertigo. So medical records are important. It's just after that diagnosis has been made, um, Social Security, they're not unreasonable. Okay, well, you know, they they've had, you know, four bouts of this uh in the last month. I need to see four ER visits. No, that's unreasonable, and that's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Yep. And then degenerative disc disease and knee and shoulder problems. Um for a 58-year-old, yeah, that's pretty severe. You know, that's because 58 is going to be within the grids. Um I would say for this person, it sounds like we can definitely help them out. Um the one thing that they did not say anything about is their work status. So again, like we've spoken about at length, it doesn't matter what limitations you have if you're still working full-time. Right. And so assuming this person is no longer able to work full-time, um, sounds like they have a good case and we can we can help them out.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Yeah. Yeah, I mean uh I think we've gone through the the five steps, the sequential evaluation. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, step one, are you are you working full time? And you say yes, and then that's it. But you're done. I mean, they're they're never going to even consider what your medical conditions are. They're just, you know, okay, well, you're gainfully employed, therefore, even applying for disability um is is not appropriate. And we see this, you see it a ton, which is you know, things are really, really getting bad at work, and uh, you know, I I don't think I'm gonna be able to make it much longer. Can you take my case? Well, when did you stop? Oh, I haven't stopped yet. I'm I'm still working. Well, have you cut your hours? No, no, I'm I'm still braving through it. You know, I'm I'm I'm going forward, I'm I'm working my 40. Sometimes they ask me to work some overtime on Saturday, so sometimes it's 45. But I tell you what, it's taking its toll on my body. Which all of that I I absolutely agree uh believe that you're telling me the truth. Yeah, I cannot help you. You are gainfully employed. I can't make a disability application when you are gainfully employed. And so it it makes it sound like we're blowing them off. Well, you know, call me with call call me when you've left or call me when you get fired. You know, it's a horrible thing to tell somebody, but yeah, it's it.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

I mean that's they're basically telling us that they anticipate qualifying in the future, and so we'll tell them, well, we can probably help you in the future then. Yeah. But if we filed the case while they're still working full time, it'll be a technical denial. They'll never look at the medical records.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Yeah, we get referrals every once in a while, and in the referral, in the section where it says, you know, work status or last word, it just says working stopping soon. It's like, well, when they stop working, we'll see if we can help them. But I mean, we can't we can't rewrite social security law.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Yeah. And it's you know, it it it sounds heartless and cold, but it's it's the way I have to run the business. I will not allow my people to process hours upon hours upon hours of acclaim to where basically what they're doing is they're trying to argue with Social Security. Yeah, they're working, but they're still disabled. It's like no, you you you can't make an argument that is on its face factually impossible. Yeah. And so, yeah, so you know, we Yeah, we just can't we can't help you on that one if you're if you're still working.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Yep. Okay, well, we'll end it there. If you have degenerative disdisease or knee and shoulder problems, or any kind of vertigo um or a combination of those things, reach out to us and we'll see if we can help. Absolutely. Cool. If you have a question about your disability case, drop it in the comment section below and we will do our best to answer it in the next episode.