The Killing of a Sacred Deer (2017)

This week, we’re discussing Yorgos Lanthimos' 2017 film, The Killing of a Sacred Deer' 2017 film.

Join Nick, Darren, Kailyn, and Amanda as we evaluate the film in our attempt to answer the one big question: Is The Lovers an A24 Essential?

Then, stay with us as we spin the wheel to reveal next month's selection!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of A24 Carrot Gold. My name is Nick. Joining me are my co-hosts Kaelin, Amanda, and Darren. How are you all doing tonight? Doing well. Doing good.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Good.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Good, good to hear. So we are on episode five of our show, and this is the third proper movie analysis discussion episode that we're doing for the show. And we got a wild one for you all tonight. We are going to be discussing Yurgos Lothamos' 2017 film, The Killing of a Secret Deer. And I will let our co-host Amanda take it away to talk about the movie, its production history, and some of the people involved with it. So take it away, Amanda.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Alright, so we're gonna do some do some facts about the movie and some and some fun stuff here. Prepare for me to attempt to pronounce a lot of Greek names that I cannot pronounce very well. So everybody just bear with me here. So we're talking about the killing of a sacred deer. The director was Yorgos Lanthimos. Two of the 16 uh producers are Ed Ginney and Yorgos Lanthimos. The screenwriter was Epithemus Filipu and Yorgos Lanthimos. The actors were Colin Farrell, Nicole Kidman, Barry Keogen, Rafi Cassidy, Sunny Soljek, Alicia Silverstone, and Bill Camp. Music editors are Johnny Byrne, Simon Carroll, and Yorgossi Reedis. That's a hard one. Music supervisors were Sarah Gillies and Nick Payne. Cinematographer was the Mio's, Bakatakis. The budget was approximately 3 million, though I couldn't get a quite exact figure on IMDB for this one, similar to when we did The Lovers last time. And in terms of the box office numbers, so domestically it made a little over 2.2 million. Internationally, a little over 4.3, and worldwide, it made a little over 6.6 million. In terms of the background on this film, um Lathamos said in an interview with um Cineview that there are ties from killing of a sacred deer to the Greek tragedy Ephigena in Elias. He said, I knew the tragedy, of course, and he liked it very much, but we started the screenplay first, and then we realized that there are these similarities between both. So we thought it was interesting enough to include it as a reference. He said that those kinds of themes have been explored since ancient times, and making this association to something so old in contemporary film made us realize that those kinds of questions hadn't really been answered so many years later. And in terms of the myth itself, um Alicia Wilkinson of Vox, when she reviewed the film, said that there are many versions of the Iphigenia myth, but the basic version starts when the Greek leader Agamemnon, while preparing his fleet to sail to Troy, accidentally kills a deer in a grove that is sacred to Artemis, the goddess of the hunt. Artemis punishes him by foiling his fleet's plans. And distraught, Agamemnon seeks help from Assir, who tells him that to turn the tide he must sacrifice his daughter Iphigenia. He at first refuses, but as the situation grows more dire, he starts to reconsider. And in many versions of the myth, Iphigenia herself catches wind of the god's demand and pleads with her father to sacrifice her life. And Wilkinson says that the story ends differently in different versions. In some, Iphigen dies, in some she lives, and in some she is swapped out at the last moment for another deer, which dies in her stead as she survives. Lathamos said, in terms of the script itself, he likes to focus on each individual piece of the movie making process. So for the script, when he was making it, he just focused on the writing and he worried about things like the casting or where it was going to take place afterwards. He said, I take great care in every individual part of the process, and I try to use all those tools and elements that I have in order to enhance the ideas of each film I make. And in terms of the actors, he had worked with Colin Farrell in The Lobster, so thought of him for this film. And with Barry Keogin, they auditioned a lot of people for Keog's role, and Keogun stood out because Latamo said that sometimes he needed to be a normal kid, and then other times feel like an avenging angel of death of some kind. He said it was hard to find a young actor that could embody all of that sometimes all at once. But Barry just stood out. He was perfect. And for Nicole Kidman, they had met in passing a few times. And when he texted Kidman about this, she she said that she definitely wanted to work with him on the script. And in terms of Alicia Silverstone, who I did not even recognize when she came on screen in this film, he said that, um, he said on a podcast, the Nothing Concrete podcast, that he Lanthamo said that he actually had a crush on Silverstone as a as a teenager from watching her in things like Clueless. Hadn't seen her in a long time. Their casting director suggested her, actually, and he was very excited by that idea. They watched her audition. Um, and Lanthamo said he didn't need to see anybody else for it. And in terms of working with her, he said, for me, it was just an incredible actress with a unique presence being right for the role. And I enjoyed working with her very much. And I'm sad that it's just a day of work, and I wish I could have worked with her more, and maybe we will in the future. In terms of the critical reception to the film premiered at Cannes May 22nd, 2017, it won Best Screenplay, and also another film that won Best Screenplay in that same festival was Lynn Ramsey's You Were Never Really Here. A24 got the domestic distribution rights in that same month for this film. It opened domestically in limited release in four theaters in October 20th of 2017 and eventually ended up in 238. A few critics like the London Evening Standard and Toronto Star and the Irish Times noted Keogin's performance in reviews in particular. Terry Brady and The Irish Times said it's Keogin who steals the show thanks to a mouth-breathing, awkwardly gated physicality and a breathless and then-and-then playground game tone he uses to deliver his malevolent plan. Many critics liked it, but some did not. Aoscott thought this film was quite familiar in terms of themes to others that had already been done. While a Time magazine critic uh said that dense with layers of bibliographical lore and Greek tragedy, it's like a cake that's impressively tall, but also unpalatably dry. It's an art house special ops mission, tiresomely clinical in its sadism. Um, in terms of audience reviews, uh quite a few Letterbox members saw this and it has a score of 3.7. Uh while on Rotten Tomatoes, it had over 10,000 audience ratings, uh, which were a bit more mixed than Letterboxd. A lot on Rotten Tomatoes said it was, quote, the worst movie. So it a lot of a lot of mixed opinions there. And for IMDB, it has a score of 7.0 out of over 200,000 votes. So the basic summary for the film is a heart surgeon befriends the son of a former patient, and the son ends up putting the surgeon's family in danger, and it's up to the surgeon to decide how will he save his family. So for all my all my co-hosts here, was this a first-time watch for any of you? And how did you watch it?

SPEAKER_04 7:52

Uh no, it's not a first-time watch for me. I saw this shortly after it first came out. Not in theaters, but probably a video rental. Uh, I watched it this time. I was on HBO Max, I think.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Yeah, same for me. I saw it on HBO Max this time, and it was a second time watch for me. Very much felt like the type of movie like Requiem for a Dream. You see it once, and you're like, oh, I never need to see that again. And then it's like, well, for the podcast, you're gonna have to sit and watch it again. So I will never probably watch it again after this, but yes, this was a second time watch for me.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

For me, this was a second time watch as well. I saw it, I believe I rented it at home when I know I saw it at home when it came out not too long after its release. And we'll talk about my journey with this movie later. I watched it the same way as Kaylin and Darren on HBO Max, and we're actually lucked out because it's actually leaving at the end of the month. So, you know, it's like the lovers we got screwed over a little because it was on like every subscription channel imaginable, and then they just took it all away from us. But this one we got just in nick of time. So, I mean, was this a first-time watch for you?

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Yeah, it was uh it was a first-time watch. It it was definitely one of those films that I had heard about a lot as kind of classic Yurghs, and so I was curious to see something that was a little bit less probably critically acclaimed and less seen than something like The Favorite or Kinds of Kindness or begonia, things like that. So uh I'm definitely glad I glad I saw this one boss. Yeah, first time watch, saw it on HBO as well. Luckily, got it before it disappeared.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Very cool. I'll go on in and talk about our first category that we are gonna discuss. And before I do that, thank you, Amanda, for all that context uh and info because you do an amazing job with it. And also, you said some people's names that I would not even attempt. And I do rock and retro.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

People can critique me. We can get emails if everybody needs to be.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

I think you did a great job with that obstacle course you were given.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Let me know.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

You know, you did amazing, and if not, we'll just put it in the fan mail or the junk mail or whatever mail that we get for uh A24 Caracold. But we're gonna look at our first category. We're gonna look at the narrative elements for the Kalen of a Sacred Deer. So we're gonna look at things like plot, story, character development, and dialogue. So I'm gonna mention a theme that stuck out to me on this rewatch because when I watched it, it was when it first came out. So this was in many ways a first-time watch. Again, I feel like anything I see that's more than five years old, it's almost like a first-time watch, even if I had not seen it, even when we did Moonlight, because you just forget things over time. So the first theme that I wanted to kind of talk about with you all is this idea about power and control. Because I think that that's a huge theme in this movie. And I feel like literally the first shot of the movie that we see, and I could not, and I'm kind of squeamish when it comes to medical procedures, is this uh shot of literally open heart surgery. And this is Steven who is in control, and we're just gonna assume that it's Martin's father, or it's something that correlates either to that or maybe later on in the film, like in the present, for that. And it's impossible to not notice because it's literally the first thing you see, and it sticks out because it's so visceral and so much of a reaction. You don't expect to see open art surgery as the first thing, and it's totally very much in the ergos tradition. But let's talk about power and control. What stuck out to you guys with that theme?

SPEAKER_02 11:33

One thing I thought was really kind of cool, and I this was like actually probably my most powerful point, but I'm kind of excited about it, so I want to mention it first. So, not to skip all the way ahead to the end, but the whole thing about Steven is that he's a surgeon, right? And like surgeons are precise and they have to make sure that they get things right or people die, as in the case of this movie. When he's going around with the shotgun and he has to pick who he's gonna shoot, you realize that like a shotgun only holds so many bullets, and he knows he's only got one left. So I was actually wondering if you guys thought that you think that maybe like he knew, especially going back to say the principal's office when he was trying to decide which of his children was better to sacrifice, like, oh, which one's better at this subject? And when you realize what he's doing, you're like, oh my god, that's horrifying. Like when he knows he has one bullet left and he has the background information that like his son is probably not as strong as his daughter, I feel like he took control, even though it was supposed to be random and kind of killed his son on purpose. And I was just wondering what you guys thought about that.

SPEAKER_04 12:31

That's definitely possible. You know, when I was watching that scene again, and I don't know if it occurred to me the first time I watched it, but when I'm watching that scene, it's like you're spinning around with a shotgun blindfolded. They're in set locations, they're not moving around. But the odds of hitting someone in the first three tries when you there's so many different aspects into even with a shotgun, if you aim too high, if you aim too far in either direction, you're not going to hit somebody. I didn't realize that he was down to his last shot before he would have to start over again and reload, but it does seem entirely possible that he made a conscious decision in that case. Yeah, that's entirely possible.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Yeah, because I was thinking that too, like, especially with the spinning and like you can keep shooting, like the way statistics works. You can just keep shooting everything in that room and never hit a human being. So I don't know if it's like for the purpose of speeding the film up or he did it on purpose, like maybe to correct the mistake he made in the beginning of not being precise, but it just felt like there was something like the first time I watched it, I didn't pick up on that. But this time I actually there was so much more I picked up on a second watch, and I was actually kind of glad I watched it again. It looked random, but I don't think it was as random as it looked.

SPEAKER_04 13:40

Or maybe he could see the whole time and he missed twice intentionally for plausible deniability.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

Yeah, maybe. Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Well, just think about his job for a second. He's a surgeon, and even this Cole Kidman who plays his wife, they're both in the medical field. Everything's very clinical. It is it's based on rationale and it's very purposeful and all that sort of stuff. And I feel like, in a sense, when Martin is introduced into the film and he has these rules and these things that he's trying to do to avenge the death of his father, it goes against science, really. A lot of the things, right? Because even when the kids are suffering from paralysis and different things, like they actually think their legs are paralyzed, they're trying to find medical reasons to diagnose the children and like what's wrong with them. And they're trying to use this sense of logic. But sometimes in this film's world, it's ultimately more of a supernatural force that is taking over these kids. So even the intuition for him to do something like that is just not possible. Because something that I was gonna mention here is that that's really an important theme, I think, is this idea of dehumanization or emotional detachment because they just feel like empty characters, right? The dialogue on this rewatch for me, it's very stilted, it's very empty.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

It's very crisp, formal, especially in the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

Absolutely. And even like the way that they talk, it's very flat. They're they have no affect really when they're speaking to one another. And something else I kind of thought that was really interesting is that it doesn't feel like there's any love in this family or in this world. Everything just feels very cold, detached, clinical. That's the word I kept using when I was writing my notes for this film. Even when they're having sex, these characters, it's almost like a business negotiation than anything else. And the way that when the cole came and lays on the bed so awkwardly, you're just thinking, what like what is happening here? Almost it's a kink.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

What really weirded me out is the daughter does the same thing. Like when she presents herself to Barry Hugan later on, she lays on the bed in the same exact way.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

And it's like, wait, that was she starts mirroring different characters though, too. She similarly smokes a cigarette like Martin does later on, and then also recites this whole story about how this family has to figure this out in a very dead time, exactly the way that Martin delivered it essentially to Steven in the beginning. So she mirrors different people at different times, which is really, really it adds a lot of layers to her character, I think.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

Yeah, because it's like, did you see them do that? Which is just a little bit more.

SPEAKER_04 16:29

How did you know that?

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Yeah, yeah, that was definitely that like perked my ears. I'm like, wait, that's weird.

SPEAKER_04 16:35

Because I don't see that as like a universe where that kink is just how people have sex. I assume that it's specific to the doctor and um it's the doctor.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

Part of the medical thing, too.

SPEAKER_04 16:45

Yeah, it seems like definitely.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Yeah, but then it's like, but then why is the daughter doing it too?

SPEAKER_04 16:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Yeah, that's that was a bit also a bit strange. And then well, everybody was very medical in the whole family, too, in terms of when they're at the fundraiser, they're talking about their daughter menstruating for the first time. And then and then and then Kim like talks about that to Martin and her and her brothers also in the room when that happens. And then they also talk about how uh she says how Martin has a has a good body and her brother wants to see the hair under his arms. And you know, and then she says to her mom that when she's hanging out with Martin, she laughed until her ribs hurt. So there's a lot of as Nick was saying, these kind of medical sterile references throughout who just talks about their menstruation to people that you know.

SPEAKER_04 17:34

A lot of it does seem like it's being just the way it would be described in a medical school class, or like uh the way that the tone and style that a doctor would deliver like bad news to a patient. A lot of it seems like every conversation that happens in this universe is in that mode.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

And they all mirror each other in these very like medical, medical ways. But I think it also relates back to what Nick was saying in terms of control. You see a lot of Anna's character, Anna being very Stepford-esque in the beginning. This, oh, he can't stay out late at this fundraiser because he has surgery the next day. And oh, you have to answer this call that he gets in the middle of the night because it could be the hospital, you know. So she's very much going along very obediently with this life that they've created until the end, where the control starts to shift to Martin, obviously, and everybody starts to lose. And that's the same with Stephen. Steven's language is very formal in the beginning, but then it kind of, you know, devolves as he's getting into this panic about what am I gonna do about my family? He gets very angry at his wife, which I don't know if that hints at maybe what he was like when he was drinking a lot. You you definitely see a lot of anger in in the end, especially when she's trying to offer her medical opinion, which is probably very sound, but it's obviously in a different specialty.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

So it I I I kind of thought to myself in that moment too, as he's sort of losing it and losing this control that he's always had, that was this what he was like when he was drinking a lot. I don't know. Maybe this is who he really is. Uh, and that's just showing towards the end of this film.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Well, I think that also goes to the theme of power and control, because that's really where Martin is uh angry and trying to to avenge essentially the death of his father, because the notion is that Steven has a drinking problem or he has some kind of substance use issue, and that he was under the influence when he was performed the diagnosis, because it's a constant theme uh throughout the film. And again, it's about power and control, I feel like, with his character.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

What's interesting is you never see him drink in the movie. So it's like, did he stop drinking after the surgery went wrong?

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Yeah, because um Anna has a very medical explanation or something what terms she uses at that fundraiser when they ask him, ask Stephen, oh, do you want a drink? And she says, I forget what the phrasing was, but it even was very medical in the terminology she used. So I don't think he's really had a drink since that incident.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

That is actually like you wonder maybe if the reason why he's losing it is because he's not drinking. Like maybe he was a functioning alcoholic, and then when that one thing went wrong, you know, maybe it was worse for him to be like, okay, I'm gonna stop drinking because now everything else is falling apart.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

And it's usual for that time. I know his his partner, I think Matthew was the Bill Camp character and said that that was usual. People did that, you know, when they were doing surgeries, people just would come to work and do that kind of stuff because that was just the norm, which is very scary to think about people operating on people under the influence like that.

SPEAKER_04 20:50

But well, 30, 40 years ago, it probably was.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yeah, that also correlates to his guilt, and I think that's how he feels because he's a very conflicted character, Stephen. And even the way that he deals with the guilt is really interesting because he doesn't really take responsibility necessarily for Martin's father's death, but I think he looks at it from the perspective that he could buy Martin gifts, he could spend time with him. It's all about commodities and you know, try to fill that void without necessarily taking accountability for, you know, okay, yeah, I was drinking while he was doing surgery. Maybe that wasn't the best idea. Or I think at one point he blames the other. He blames the anesthesiologist.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

He blames Matthew. He says the anesthesiologist's fault that this happened. And then when Anna and Matthew met, Matthew said, No, it's never the anesthesiologist's fault.

SPEAKER_04 21:43

Yeah, they both they both say that plausible deniability there.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

But you can the fact that he undresses and shows Martin like the hair under his arm shows that he has really gone out on a limb for this child, that he doesn't. Know, but you can see that as as Nick is talking, you can see that guilt there, and the fact that he goes to dinner at his house, yeah, does not really know him in that context, and that scene is is wild, Alicia Silverstone.

SPEAKER_04 22:12

So none of none of it is uh appropriate in any way for a doctor.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

If somebody wild in a room and saw that, that was him meeting the kid for dinner is not inappropriate.

SPEAKER_04 22:22

I I I would assume that unless it's like something different about the universe, that he's being blackmailed by Martin. Like Martin is like, you know, I know that you were drunk and I want you to meet, and that's like the the underlying cause of why he's having any interactions with him at all. It's one thing if the kid shows up at the hospital and it's just like, okay, well, I need to talk to him because he's clearly not doing well, but meet him in private and go to his house and do all kinds of things. There's no way that's uh an appropriate reaction for a doctor to interact with a right.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

He's introducing him to his colleagues, and and and he's a very prominent people have seen him around the hot outside of the hospital and you're where they go, you know. So it's very it's a really weird relationship and also very inappropriate for an adult to be hanging out.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

Well, that's why I feel like that's why I feel like Martin actually had maybe control and power from the beginning of the movie because you never there's never like a score swelling of like, oh, this bad thing is happening. This is you know, act two telling you the plot or the end of act one. You just kind of slowly pick up on the fact that this kid is just playing his strings the whole time. One of the most powerful lines in the entire movie is when Martin goes through the whole rules of like, okay, I have to tell you what's going to happen, and it's like this, this, this, and this. And I think the best line is like, I have nothing more to say unless you have any questions. Because it's just like, okay, look, I'm not evil, I'm not lording this over you. This is just the way this universe works. So, like, I'm sorry, I have to be the bearer of bad news, but like, I have the power over you now. Maybe I didn't necessarily want the power that I have over you now, but like, in order for this to end, you have to do these things. And then, like, it shows you, like, obviously, he has to do these things because like now his children are paralyzed, and yada yada yada. So, like, I just I thought that was so great. Of like, he has so much power, and it's just so subtle and so lightly done of like, yeah, no, I kind of rule your life. Very matter-of-a-fact.

SPEAKER_04 24:12

This here's this thing. This is what will happen.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Yes, and you know, I I'm not telling you this is the bad guy with you know, the villain in the movie, like you know, like scar or anything, but like this is just the way it is now. You killed my father, prepared to have someone die. But I like that.

SPEAKER_04 24:28

I definitely thought of the Lion King while watching this.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

I also thought though that so the the theme with his mother, the scene with Martin's mother and when Steven goes to dinner, things like that, and and obviously Martin's mother's making advances. So I originally thought that Martin wanted to fix his family by adding Steven into it. And so my so I'm curious uh to hear from you all. If that had worked, let's say Steven had started this affair with with Martin's mother. Do you think any of this would have happened? I don't know. I thought he was just trying to create some type of replacement family and shove Stephen into it.

SPEAKER_04 25:05

I think it's entirely possible because one of the options was to kill his wife. Martin, it's gonna happen either way, but Martin isn't presenting him with here's this woman who she likes you and uh it could work, and you could be a replacement father, fix my family and combine with your family, and that would be something that could happen as like an option, and also generally just to increase the weirdness and creepiness in the uh the movie itself. That's probably about the only reason to include it.

SPEAKER_02 25:33

I always thought that he would have to like hook up with the mom to spare Anna's life, that he wouldn't she wouldn't have to die if you just took over my family.

SPEAKER_04 25:40

Not a not a chance.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

See, I'm too positive. That's not out of it.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Maybe we could avoid the death altogether if they just got together and then just had this weird affair thing.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Just like what polyamory, just like you know, too too.

SPEAKER_04 25:54

I'm I'm thinking that the Greek revenge requires a member of his family to die, an eye for an eye sort of situation. I don't think that there was ever any option to get out of it. As soon as the ball started rolling, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

And I think that's actually what I was thinking too on this rewatch. I for totally forgot about the whole uh Martin's mother coming on to Steven. I see that coming from a mile away. But this actually relates to an earlier point I made about everything being uh like a business negotiation, even the way Martin and his mother come on to Steven, it's very clinical, it's very cold. It's like the fantasy world. Okay, so you're here, you have a family with kids, right? You love them, but you know what? You be perfect here, and like it would have this whole like Sims like world being like you know, wingling to his mom over here, essentially, being like let me go to sleep. Here's the story of a drunken doctor who is killing fathers of very creepy children, very creepy kids, and we never see cousin Oliver ever again, which is maybe the next year goes movie.

SPEAKER_04 27:04

What happened to cousin Oliver? He dies on the return to his home planet.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

As you guys were talking, you guys made me think of something that I think is actually a really important narrative theme that uh totally escaped me when I watched the film many years ago. And it's when Steven is in the house with uh Martin and his mother, they watch Groundhog Day. Yes, and so I was thinking to myself, Martin says that that's his favorite movie, and that was his father's movie, too.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

And he makes him watch it, which is kind of cold in a way, too, because it's you know, I mean, it's a feel-good comedy, but it's also the idea that with uh something like Groundhog Day, it deals with time loops and it's dealing with characters who are repeating the same things over and over again. And I was just curious your guys' thoughts on that, because that's almost the biggest takeaway I got out of all the narrative elements to this movie was that you know it's essentially a character who's cursed, uh, and then they're trying to escape this cycle, and you know, it's just this time lip that happened.

SPEAKER_04 28:09

So Yep, it's uh destiny is what I got out of it. It's destined to happen and you can't avoid it now. At least, unlike Groundhog Day, they had the care to uh explain the rules on what you actually have to do rather than just living it over again a million iterations until you figure it out on your own. Yeah, destiny's the takeaway from me as far as Groundhog Day.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

But also it's this idea of escapism versus reality in the sense that what is real, what isn't real. And I feel like these some of these characters sometimes they act fantastical in these spaces where you're thinking, some of the shit that they're saying to each other, you're thinking, oh my god, it's craziness.

SPEAKER_04 28:49

Like all Yorghos movies exist in an otherworldly dimension. It's like this is this is our world. Like, here's Groundhog Day. That's a movie that exists in our world, but it is definitely not our world. And I think that's one of the things that I love. It's one of my favorite directors, and I think that's what I love about him so much is that it's so weird and off-putting and so like a parallel universe type situation where you're singing his movies, and it's just a little bit off, but not entirely off.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Yeah, but you know what I noticed in that scene too is when they're watching on the couch, he gets up in the middle of the movie and leaves. He's like, and it's about power control because he says, Okay, I'm gonna go to bed, we'll stop the movie, but when you come back next time, which could be God knows when, oh, we'll finish watching the movie.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

I guess that he's like wing being a wingman to his mom, being saying, I'm tired, I'm gonna give you guys some some alone time. We plan this kind of thing, which was which was really strange. And then but also in in the thing of Groundhog Day, you know, when they when they do something, sometimes there's a change to the next day in that film. And so that's a big thing too. In this film, is there's a chain reaction to what Steven does with Martin's father during that surgery. And that is, as Darren was saying, with destiny, it sets everything in motion for what's going to happen. So everything, there's a chain reaction and effects that happen all across this film because of Steven, which a lot of critics and other things I read were talking about, you know, Steven having this sort of god-like presence, being the surgeon, being this person who has this control and power over everything. And then Martin coming in and sort of being a devil and being this person that is going to curse basically everything he touches and seep his way into the lives of Kim and the lives of Stephen's son and and his wife, and just being this sort of insidious figure that's gonna basically mess up everything that he has had in this kind of bubble for so long.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Yeah, because like isn't it? I mean, I could be off with the timing, but isn't isn't it right after at night that he comes home that the sun starts having all the symptoms?

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Isn't it like it took a little long because he Martin came to his house also and then I think that was either before or after the that Steven had dinner with Martin?

SPEAKER_02 31:13

It was after, I think, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

So it took a little while, though it was definitely more of a slow burn kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

But it was definitely the type of thing of like, okay, this thing with my mom is not happening, so I'm gonna have to kill your kids.

SPEAKER_04 31:25

Like, all right, like I think that was inevitable.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

Is this a reimagination of Clueless now? No, I'm kidding. As if. Um, I think the other thing too that I thought about watching this movie is that it's really interesting that the children, the characters of the children I paid more attention to in this movie. And I don't know why, but the character of Bob, like what kid is called Bob? I don't know. I always think like an old man. I don't know, maybe it's just me. But they go by nicknames, because even her, it's Kim, not Kimberly. But then Martin and Anna, they really don't have nicknames.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Martin's mother doesn't have a name at all, it's just Martin's mother in the credits.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Or Steven. It's just Steven. It's very formal names. But they go by nicknames, but it's really interesting because I've never heard or never think of a 10-year-old, we'll just say he's 10, uh, be called Bob. It just seems very unnatural. I don't know why.

SPEAKER_04 32:22

You assume it would be Bobby.

unknown 32:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

I actually have two bosses and they're named Bob and Bobby.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

So Bob is a bit of an interesting character too, in that most of the family seems very obedient to Stephen and doing whatever he wants them to do. But Bob is just saying, Oh, I'll cut my hair after this party. I don't want to do this thing right now. And and Bob tends to be. I mean, Kim starts acting out when she meets Martin, but Bob tends to be a bit more rebellious a little bit right off the bat, but then sort of succumbs to this desperation to be saved, so starts being a bit more obedient in the end.

SPEAKER_04 33:01

Because he thinks it'll make a difference, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:04

And it's really interesting how the kids look at Martin like the cool kid. They're like, Oh, how much body here do you have? He smokes, he rides them his friend's motorcycle. It's so weird. Oh, can I smoke in here even though I'm 16? Uh, well, yeah, you could just go to the window and like, you know, lie in a drag or whatever. And you're thinking, well, like the braziness of this kid is just amazing.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

Yes, we totally wear helmets on the bike. Cuts too, no helmets.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

He also tells Kim they can't walk their dog because he has some weird thing about the like I think he was attacked by or something about a dog when he was he's scared because he says I wrote this down, he's scared because when they fight, it the dogs could be unpredictable, which made me think there might be something more to that. Because, like, I don't know. I think a serial killer's with dogs, I don't know why he says evil too.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

That could be a thing. Like, he wants to stay away from the dog because the dog will just like tell the family this guy is pure evil, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

You know, he has antlers. But you don't have antlers in your houses, guys, just sitting around just sitting around chilling on the wall.

SPEAKER_04 34:19

You guys don't have coat racks.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Uh no. Oh man. Well, what other themes uh or uh characters have we not talked about that you guys do want to talk about?

SPEAKER_02 34:35

We know anything about why the spaghetti is spaghetti.

SPEAKER_04 34:39

So, like my background image on this call is him eating the spaghetti. Um it's just a cool image that I picked, not anything thematically, but I do think that maybe the story he's telling about the spaghetti is like he thought that he was unique and that he was exactly like his father because he ate his spaghetti a certain way, and he was just like, Oh, everyone always comments that you're just like your father. And it's like that connection between him and the father that he lost, and then later he finds out everyone eats spaghetti exactly the same way.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Yeah, that was a sad story.

SPEAKER_04 35:08

Yeah. So I think that's that's why he's trying to like illustrate a point of like the heartbreak of what he lost with his father.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

Well, also look at at the end I'll look at the image right now of Darren, which the highlight is disturbing.

SPEAKER_04 35:22

Um swearing a white shirt and eating spaghetti. He's a maniac.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

I feel like I really lost everywhere in the chair.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

For sure. The the chair with fabric on it, by the way. Yeah, I think it is. The chair with fabric on it, light fabric, he's eating spaghetti.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

But I feel like somebody said that they specifically chose a white t-shirt for him to wear because you see the spaghetti better, and also just because it's just so undoubtedly.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

And the fact too is that he's talking to him, and the way he eats it is so I don't even know how to describe it really without saying it's just very the way a little kid would eat spaghetti.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

It's the moment.

SPEAKER_04 36:09

Until you teach them how to eat spaghetti by like cutting it up a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

And it's just eating spaghetti before school at 8 a.m. or something in the morning, you know, before he leaves.

SPEAKER_04 36:19

Very clearly someone who runs his own household. Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

His mother is unemployed, but we have no idea what she does other than that one time where she hung out with Steven.

SPEAKER_04 36:28

She waits for her psycho son to find her a husband, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

She's a succubus. I think that scene, I'm thinking myself, think I didn't eat anything while watching this movie. I forgot about that.

SPEAKER_04 36:43

It's never a good idea to you show somebody eating in a movie or a TV show to make them disgusting or make them somebody that you despise because we all hate to watch other people eat.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

And I mean, to be fair, if you got yourself a nice big bucket of popcorn and you started this movie, that popcorn is not getting touched.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Like the first Especially by the last 30 minutes, all that blood.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

Yeah, that was that was like I do not get squeamish and I press forward this time. I'm like, I know.

SPEAKER_04 37:11

I love gory horror movies. I can eat popcorn through anything.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

Yeah, I know it takes a while. That scene really gets me. That's not what it is.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

I just thought that that whole scene was all interesting too because of the way he's sitting, the way he's doing that. You know what movie it reminds me of? I'm gonna throw it to one of my favorite movies. It reminds me of seven. So when Kevin Spacey's in his apartment and he's eating the food, and it's like a disgusting place, but it just it makes it feel so unsettling and so just you're like, is this person a person? Is this a human being? I don't know. The internet has thoughts on this, I think, with Barry Keogen, but we're not gonna go there. Um, but also I think it's what you said to Amanda about it being this idea of he's not like when he finds out that he eats the same way uh of spaghetti like his dad, it takes that uniqueness out of it. Because you know, when you say to yourself, like, oh, I have the best mom or the best dad, and they do something very unique or different, but really everyone eats spaghetti the same way, and so it's like this mundane thing that he does that makes it feel less special, maybe in his eyes. So maybe that's a maybe the moment where he becomes inhumane. That scene I just look at him like, oh my god, like I don't want to look at spaghetti. I just had spaghetti before this go figure. So what does that say about me? Um, was there anything else we want to cover, guys?

SPEAKER_01 38:40

I for for somebody that seems to be on such a tear to avenge what happened to his father, I don't unl unless you all saw some different things, I didn't see a lot of where Martin and his father connected, or we didn't get a lot of background on their relationship. So besides the movie and besides the spaghetti comment and and things like that, it it was a bit odd that somebody that wanted to avenge their father so much didn't really talk about their father that much, or we didn't hear more about their relationship, which I which was the piece that really was missing for me in in the world of the story.

SPEAKER_04 39:20

Well, he's very clear-eyed about it. There's not a lot of anger or like vengeance theme to it, and I think that's probably because he knows that you know he is going to get his revenge, so maybe he's just made his peace with it and it's like I'm not gonna back down from this, it's going to happen, and it's the wheels are already in motion, so why be cruel or why be vindictive or angry about it? I'm going to get what I want, I'm going to get justice. He lost a member of his family, and I think that he's very cold and detached about that, but everything in this movie is cold and detached, so it's more matter-of-fact rather than like I had this intense connection with my father and you took him away from me. Well, we don't know anything about his relationship with his father, only that his father died.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Yeah, and I mean I felt like that was enough that if you're really close to your parent, that's really all you need for the story. Like you really need to have stories about them going fishing on Sundays or him teaching him how to ride a bike. It's basically like, okay, he was close to his dad, it's the boy dad Bond thing. Dad is now gone, and now you have to pay.

SPEAKER_04 40:16

I don't even know if it's that. I just think it's like this was a member of my family, and you took him away from me. Yeah, because I'll take a member of your family. That's justice.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

Yeah, pretty much.

SPEAKER_04 40:26

They didn't have to even be close.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Yeah, that's true. Do we want to get on into the rate-ins for this category?

SPEAKER_04 40:34

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

So I will go first. Uh I kept my cards very close on all the talk about this movie because before we get started, I watched this when it first came out. I was working so much my life and I wanted happy things. This movie is not a happy movie, so it affected my read-in of this movie when I looked at it. I didn't like it as much the first time I watched it.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

Uh, but with that said, I think I think Martin's happy by the end of it. He's probably the only one, but he gets a happy ending.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Oh, he gets a happy ending, all right. He's he's living his best life. Um yeah. But my read-in for this category is a four. I thought it was actually thematically rich. I thought that for a movie that's so abstract, I feel like it really does a good job to articulate a lot of the themes that we're going for. It's very allegorical, it's deliberately slow, it's deliberately awkward, deliberately cold. And I think that this is one of those movies where I feel like uh even the conversation we're having about these characters and the themes, it's all really, really sharp and disturbing and memorable. And I think this is a really strong out in. And I've always a big believer, I'll say this on the podcast a couple times, but this one will apply. Re-watch movies because when you watch a movie, your emotions, your mood depends on how you react to a movie. So when we re-watch movies for the show, we might have maybe a loof reaction to something from when we watched it, when it came out, or whenever we did watch it. And then we re-watch it, we either gain a new appreciation for it, or we might say, maybe this is not as good as I remembered. But this actually, I think, demands a rewatch. Because I think when you watch it the first time, you don't know what to expect, really. But I kind of had a little bit of an idea, but I gave it a four for those reasons, and I thought uh Lothomas and company did really well. I'll take it over to Kayla next. Kayla, what is your rating for this category?

SPEAKER_02 42:35

So, yeah, I usually load my rating at the end because I build up to it, but I'm just gonna say straight off I agree with you. I gave it a four. I think the plot is layered really well, and I think, like you said, it benefits from a rewatch, which is always a sign of good writing. If you watch a movie a second time, you don't get anything out of it. It's like, well, maybe my emotions are why I enjoyed it the first time, and now I'm not getting much out of it. But when you can start to piece more and more things together, the more you watch it, that's always a sign of good writing to me. Um, yeah, I thought the story was very deep. So, like the type of thing that you probably have to look up and read more about to understand, which is always good. Not everything needs to be a popcorn movie. I didn't think that the characters developed all that well. They do, but they also don't. Like I feel like some do more than others. I don't think the daughter really has an arc. I don't think Anna really has much of an arc. I think really it's just Steven and Martin that really have the arcs here. So I felt like it maybe slightly suffered from that, but it's not a deal killer. So yeah, I thought it was definitely strong all around on narrative, and yeah, that's why I gave it a four.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Great. Uh thank you, Caitlin. Uh, Darren, what's your reading for this category?

SPEAKER_04 43:37

Okay. Uh, for narrative elements, uh, really like the way that the mystery unravels in this story, introducing weird, inappropriate interactions right from the start and slowly unraveling the plot points until the big drop of data. Themes of justice and revenge harken back to Greek and Roman mythology as well as the Old Testament, though they are presented through a modern lens. I think that this is a very interesting way to explore, and I think that the area to Explore and I think that the writers and directors do interesting things with it. Ultimately, it feels like they could have gone a little bit further within the structure of the concept than they did, which is why I'm giving it a four.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Amanda, what is your uh rating for this category?

SPEAKER_01 44:12

So I gave it a three. I enjoyed the plot aspects of it. I was along for the ride in terms of the turn we have with Martin laying this whole myth out and and and what has to happen to these characters. I definitely also enjoyed the slow burn of it, the fact that we really worked up to seeing Martin interact with various members of Stephen's family before we got to this. So there was a trust built in before it all fell apart. I thought the character development was good. I actually disagree with Kaelin in terms of I think Kim for me is one of the most complex characters in this because I I talked about it a little bit before in terms of the mirroring, but also just I think her turn is is extremely interesting too because she does get to this rebellious side when she tends to side with Martin in a lot of these instances. And then also you see that same desperation that you see with Bob with her saying how she's willing to sacrifice herself for the family, and Stephen gave her life so that she he can take it away. So it I I thought that she was uh really a very layered uh character, same same with Anna as well. So I thought I thought the character development was great. Where I bumped on this a little bit was the dialogue, especially in the beginning. I know we talked a little bit about it before, just the very formal nature, the staccato nature, but even with Martin in terms of what he was saying in the beginning, things like thank you very much for the for the watch and just the way that they were talking between each other threw threw me off a little bit. Uh, it just didn't seem like regular people having a regular conversation. I know that's also very much a theme throughout many of Yorgos' films. So I I chalk it up to the Greek influence and the and the tragedy of the influence. And so it makes sense in in the world of the story, but for me, uh just having that formality with these characters threw me off a little bit as we were getting into it. So that's why it's a little lower than than than everybody else's, but still a a very unique uh story overall, which which I always appreciate when people really think outside the box for what they're developing.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

Great. Well, those are our rate-ins so far for this movie. So we finished category one, and now we're gonna go into category two, which is about the direction and acting in the film. So I'm gonna take it over to Darren, who will introduce that segment to our listeners. Take it away, Darren.

SPEAKER_04 46:50

All right, now as Nick stated, the next category is direction and acting, specifically directorial vision, casting, and acting. The killing of Sacred Deer is directed by Yorgos Lanthamos. And while Dogtooth was his Oscar breakthrough and The Lobster brought him a lot of attention in the indie world, Sacred Deer was his final film, feature film before he became a staple of the indie world with the favorite. Very much an autour director. Lanthemos has established himself as one of the most unique and avant-garde directors working in the 21st century, and Sacred Deer is an open section. His directorial vision and the performance he gets from his actors are by far the highlights of this film for me, as he guides an able cast led by Colin Farrell and Barry Gyogen, a chilling major breakthrough performance, and also features Nicole Kidman, Alicia Silverstone, Rafi Cassidy, Sonny Sholgick, and Bill Camp in major roles. What makes this acting and directing this film so great is the high concept tone of the film that never flinches, despite being a tight rope act from start to finish, both physically and emotionally. So, what does everybody else think?

SPEAKER_01 47:51

I I agree with with a lot of what uh Darren was saying. I think that uh Jorgos has built this world where everything seems good on the surface, but there's just something bubbling underneath it, and you get a lot of that, you know, through the cinematography and through the acting as well. I think all of these characters have have these arcs, and as I talked in the last category, especially that scene between Anna and um Steven in in the kitchen, when he's at that point, they've transferred their children down to the down to the basement or down to other areas, and they've kidnapped Martin, and everything's gone a bit haywire. And he's talking about her making mashed potatoes the next day. And uh Nicole Kidman is is just so so good in that scene, just throwing everything out at Stephen in terms of and Colin Farrell in terms of just how incompetent Stephen is. My our kids are dying, and you want me to make mashed potatoes. Uh, Nicole Kidman just has a really interesting way that she plays this character in terms of being this obedient Stepford-esque wife, to then completely cracking and crying and and doing all these different things to try to save her children and save her family. The acting uh in this, everybody is just perfectly cast and and and carries their roles really well throughout.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

For me, I think that this actually works really well because of the casting. And I think especially Barry Keogen's performance is the standout here because I always feel like sometimes it's who is casting the role that really matters, and I think this one it's hugely important. And like you were saying earlier, Amanda, about whether or not they wanted to cast him or the cat they were trying hundreds of actors, I think. It was a lot of it was a lot of people that joined him, and he was relatively unknown at the time. So him taking on this role was uh a risk because you, of course, you have Colin Farrell and Nicole Kidman, those are your two stars, quote unquote. Oh, yeah, in the film, and they both really are great, as always, and they're versatile actors, and I think they're really wonderful at everything, even if the lot of the movies they star in are not at the caliber of their talents. But Kyogen really stood out to me because he does it in such a way that is just so effective, and it's a chilling performance that makes you never want to look at spaghetti again, never want to look at antlers again, look at cigarettes, or really anything that he does really in this movie.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

Or talk about body hair and how much body hair uh or eat fries in a diner, which I think is how he del or I think it's at the cafeteria where he delivers this news to Steven of you have to kill a member of your family. Oh, you can't stop me from eating fries in a diner, eating uh eating in a cafeteria or a diner.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

He's so good in the role, and um even like his delivery, like there's one scene that I wrote about uh him talking about his rules and talking to Stephen about it, and that he's basically avenging his father's death. He says it in a way like he never raises his voice ever, and it's really lacks emotion. And we were talking about this earlier, like this emptiness that happens within the film, but it's so just effective. That's the only word I keep keep thinking of, and it's a performance that I will never forget. It's a similar performance to a film that he would do later on in Saltburn, where he and and and so this is wonderful. And I thought Farrell and Nicole Kim and were also really wonderful. I think, especially Farrell, I think he tones it back a little, which is good, and her character as well. But did anyone else have thoughts on the performances for the casting?

SPEAKER_04 51:45

Yeah, like Kyogen's perfectly cast for this, and Lor Yorgos Lanthemos is all of his films are a certain way of heightened. There are perfect roles for perfect characters. Like Holland Farrell isn't entirely perfect for this movie, but he was perfect for the lobster. Barry Kyogen is just kind of perfect for this key role. And if you screw that up, it could be a laughably bad movie. You know, if he is too mustached whirly or if he is too sadistic or too over the top. But the way that he's presented as someone who is like basically it's nothing personal, it's just stating the fact that you did this, and now you have to pay this price, and that's what's going to happen, and there's nothing you can do about it. It's unavoidable, it's inevitable, this is a fate, and it's what's happening. And he presents this in the a way that is cold-eyed with clear vision, but not quite as psychopathic as he is, or sociopathic as he is in um uh Saltburg. So he is just the right person for the right role, and he fits so well as a Yorgos Lanthimos um character that it's it's just perfect. It's like I'm surprised he hasn't done a lot more work with Yorgos, the way that he works constantly with uh Emma Stone and uh Jesse Jesse Blements. Yeah. So I'm surprised that he hasn't become more of a repertoire actor in Yorgos' films, but I'm sure that he'll probably be revisited if they need somebody that he would be the perfect character for.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

Well, you know what it is, I think, with Kiogen's character, he fits this uh character type that you see in Yorgos' movies where they're so unpredictable and they're so awkward, and you can't really tell where they're gonna go. Because you think it's gonna go one way, and then they take a detour, and you're thinking, okay, like this is batshit crazy of what's happening. Um go back to Kidman and Farrell for a sec. They also break the star persona types for them, right? Because I mean, if you think about like Colin Farrell for a second, he's very charismatic, he's very expressive with his emotions, he often uses humor. Yuri's very stiff, he's almost like a hollow human being. Nicole Kidman, she's usually very intense and emotionally layered. Like her performances here's very calculated and eerie and controlling. And I love how Yorgos is able to subvert our expectations. Even Alicia Silverstone, we think of her for clueless, really. I mean, we laugh, but in all seriousness, that's like her defining role.

SPEAKER_02 54:05

And Aerosmith music videos.

SPEAKER_01 54:07

Yes, yes, and that's what he mentioned too. He said he said that's why he had a crush on her, Aerosmith music videos. That's why everyone in the 90s had a crush on her. She's so good in that part, though. You can tell from I think I've said this earlier, you can tell from the jump what her intention is sitting on that couch with him, asking him about her hair color. It's written just all over her face, and just the kissing of the hand and how beautiful his hands, which comes, you know, throughout this film, how beautiful his hands are. So she is just in that one scene in that one day, she had they they shot it, you know. She really, really delivered and and was a did not even recognize her at first.

SPEAKER_04 54:49

And he he did work with her again. Uh, she was the mother in Begonia.

SPEAKER_00 54:53

Oh wow, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, if we're thinking about Yorgos also as an autor, his themes are like we mentioned earlier, it's these characters who are emotionally detached. Uh, there's this like moral system at play that uh affects the psychologist.

SPEAKER_04 55:10

Borderline spectrum. Yeah, the autism spectrum definitely seems to be like a factor in the way that he directs his characters.

SPEAKER_00 55:19

Definitely, and they feel like outsiders in that sense, where there's something off or not quite right about it. And I think that also adds to what I think he's really known for is his dark comedy and really his absurdity and the way he handles the material that is often very disturbing if you look at it at face value, but the way he handles it, and I mean this movie's not laugh out loud, funny. Like to be poor things, especially is very funny film.

SPEAKER_01 55:48

I love poor things, but there are funny moments. Oh yeah, you know, of it's funny if you're you know that type of person from this film, you know, just talking about watches after a surgery is just so weird and strange after you've just operated on somebody. Just where'd you get your watch?

SPEAKER_04 56:08

It kind of kind of uh reminds me of like Joe Dorowski or Boonel, like bizarre satirists from the 70s and 80s.

SPEAKER_02 56:16

So actually, though, so we're saying like the first tur surgery was probably Martin's father, right? And then they're walking they're walking in the hallway after that surgery. So maybe like it was their way of coping with holy shit, we just killed a guy.

SPEAKER_04 56:28

Like maybe it was directors have to do that.

SPEAKER_02 56:31

Yeah, I know. But like maybe it's just like that weird, hey, so uh like you know those scenes that are in like you know TV shows after like the two main characters have sex or something and it's all awkward now. It's like, oh, I gotta go home. Yeah, me too. Okay, so it's uh what's where'd you get your watch? Like maybe it's that kind of covering for the we just killed the guy. Let's uh you know, have a watch. Where'd you get your watch? Like that kind of weird, awkward maybe maybe that's where it stems from.

SPEAKER_04 56:53

Maybe, but like I was saying, like doctors have to have a detachment to that sort of thing because otherwise the first time that somebody dies under your knife, you're never able to do it again, and that's a complete waste. So it's gonna happen. I mean, you know we don't know how much his drinking was actually as a fault, or so much as maybe it was a coincidence that he happened to be drinking. But I mean, Martin certainly seems to have the assuredness of a God who knows for absolute certain that if he hadn't been drinking, that's why he's able to go forward with this, because there's no uncertainty in his mind.

SPEAKER_02 57:24

But that's why there's no heart surgery that's simple. But I feel like in the world of heart surgery, maybe it was something that should have been so easy to do, and he messed it up and he's like, Oh, I should not have done that.

SPEAKER_04 57:35

Yeah, so that's it's it's never explained, but he doesn't seem to be particularly feeling guilty about it.

SPEAKER_02 57:40

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:41

He he actually blames other people for it. He he actually takes no accountability really for it.

SPEAKER_02 57:47

That's part of the reason why I feel like that watch conversation happened is because like each one feels like the other one is responsible. So it's like, hey, let's not talk about what you just did. Okay, we won't talk about what you just did. No, they're not really grasping the gravity of what actually happened.

SPEAKER_04 58:00

But notably, Martin doesn't do anything that we know of to the Bill Camp character. So it seems as though it was not the anesthesiologist's fault.

SPEAKER_02 58:09

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_00 58:11

So something I did notice to talk more about Yorgos as a director and like his style. That I mean, I'll probably talk more about this in the next category because I think there's a lot of good things happening here visually. But something that Yorgos does is he uses a lot of wide angle lenses and uh slow, slow tracking shots that really help make it feel very clinical in the sense that you're seeing things often from a distance. So when you're being introduced to scenes and characters, like Caitlin, you were just talking about the scene with him with the watch, it spends about I would say a good 10 to 20 seconds at least before we even see a close-up of uh Martin and Steven. And you're seeing things from a distance, even when we're introduced to the house, and we're seeing it from the outside through the window of them eating, but we don't go directly into the interior of the characters eating dinner. So I feel like in a weird way, I'm gonna make the argument that Yorgos uses the camera almost like a scientific instrument in the sense that he's observing these characters, he's not really empathizing or in their world until he has to absolutely be, because we can't watch a movie from a distance the entire time. But the way he establishes a lot of these scenes are super, super important, I think, to the themes that we were talking about earlier. Documentary observer or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

I have a quote for the next next section on that. Um but also that was a real surgery that they filmed uh for the movie and in that opening shot of Colin Farrell, and that opening shot of just the heart. That's a real surgery they filmed. People had to get vaccinated, they had to sterilize things, and they filmed this um from an actual surgery that was happening. So that I is another just very cool element about what Yorgas does is just taking this very, very real thing and putting it in this world that's almost this magical realism kind of strange fantasy world, and and but putting something so actual and and so precise and so real into it. So I definitely think it it's better to see that because it's a very visceral thing versus you know them having gotten like fake body parts and all this other stuff to put in here.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:29

And that's the authenticity of it too. Uh because even for a film that is somewhat fantastical in terms of what it's dealing with, you still believe it because it mimics the real world that we live in. And I think that's part of what I like about Your Ghost's movies, is that some of the things are, of course, more fantastical, like Poor Things is what I always think of. Where it's like a but but a lot of the other films like Begonia is and and even the favorite or uh kinds of kindness, they feel like the real world we live in, and it's like this uh sense of irony, and uh I don't know. It just I think that's why I connect it almost all of his movies because you gotta have that wavelength too, because I know justice, like we're friends, of course, are because we host a podcast, but like I know a lot of people who have very aloof reaction to his movies, like they like some, they don't like others, or they just don't get it. And I feel like that type of cerebral filmmaking and that kind of vision, it works really well when you're on that same wavelength.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:30

But if you're not, oh he is absolutely one of the most love it or hate it type directors. I mean, this is the type of movie where 20% are absolutely gonna love everything that they see from Yorgosland the most, 20% are gonna absolutely hate everything, and then in the middle, it's gonna be like I like some of them, but I don't like others. And then there's even more like obscure stuff. Like, you know, this is a much more straightforward film than say Dog Two or Alps or some of his more obscure European films. So this is like kind of in the middle of the range as far as like if the favorite is his most uh mainstream film. This is a little bit less mainstream, but certainly not as far as his his other stuff will go. So this is about on the same level as The Lobster.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:16

But you know what's interesting, Darren, too, now that you say that and it made me think of this. So this is besides kinds of kindness, this is his last credit as a writer. So he outsourced the write-in for favorite poor things of Pagonia. Yeah. So it's interesting because when you look at his other films, like everything before that, I think, except for my best friend, which was his directorial debut, he wrote or co-wrote every film. So he has that sort of uh control at length as the creator of his films. But it's really interesting that this is the last film for almost a decade that he was actually the credited writer.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:55

I'm sure he had a say uh in the process, but notably when he has someone else writing and he's handling the directing, the movies are more financially successful and they are more appreciated by mainstream uh critics and like the Academy Awards and the awards. So there's a certain level he can get to writing his own material, a level of acceptance that if he's working with a really great writer of uh the favorite and uh poor things, he can get to that next level where if he has the right partner, he can get to the level where he has a movie with 10 Oscar nominations.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:30

But you know what it is too, and this is the other thing that made me think of this Masley's filmography is that next year he would do the favorite, which of course, like you said, was his commercial breakthrough. He was nominated for an Oscar for the lobster for screenplay, but then he got very picky and he went five years, and then he goes a couple years with well, I guess he made a movie every year since Port Days, but my point is it became more of an event almost when he would release a movie, because you're like, How is he gonna follow the favorite, you know? And that happens with creative types where they have these gaps, even though the last couple years he's released a movie every year. Um, and I think that's really important here.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:12

He's taken a vacation for I think he's taken like a year or two off from doing anything like that because he's been just everywhere. He's had like three movies in the last two years.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:21

Oh, you need breaks. I'm a big supporter for creatives. You gotta recharge the battery, and this is also his last 824 film because the lobster, which we'll cover at some point on the show, is 824, and then this one, and then he goes to Fox, and then he goes to Focus Feature. So, again, like you were saying, Darren, about him be a more commercial director in that sense. I think I'm almost like with Wes Anderson, where like the movies are not gonna make like like 300 million dollars, but they're always gonna make a profit because they have that devoted cult following with them. Yeah, the director is on the next level.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:53

Yeah, West West's movies will average 40 or 50 million dollars, but uh Yorgos is are you know kind of capped around 20, uh, except for like poor things made. I think it made like a hundred million. Oh, did it? Oh wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:08

Yorgoth is also though tied to a lot of these big stars now, just that relationship with Emma Stone and Jesse Clemens. I I think well, one uh uh probably in 2017, a lot of people weren't very as much, you know, very familiar with A24 and things like that. So, and also not very familiar with Yorgoth. They knew Nicole Kidman and Colin Farrell, obviously. These but this movie didn't have that star appeal that something like an Olivia Coleman or an Emma, I mean Olivia Coleman now, but like an Emma Stone would have to draw people in. And then it also think I think the thing about the favorite and poor things that made it have that commercial success too is we started in a very strange world in both of those things. And so what happens in those films, it's easier to go along for the ride than it is in something like this where we start. Start out so I guess quote unquote normally. And then there's just this giant twist that kind of happens halfway through. So I think that lent itself to why a lot of people, especially on Rotten Tomatoes, things like that, said worst movie, because you really have to be able to go along for the ride when you don't start in a weird place and you end up in a very weird place. You have to be willing to accept that and also not maybe have the stars you really love in it, like an Emma Stan or something.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:24

Yeah, this is a polarizing movie. And like Nicole Kidman and Colin Farrell do a lot of weird movies. But I think people are looking for certain things from them and they are not finding it in this movie, which I think it leads to a lot of the polarizing results where love it or hate it. You're either going to think this is brilliant or you're going to think this is horrible. And I don't really blame anybody either way either.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:45

You know what's funny? And now I think about it, all three movies we've done are exactly the types of movies that you have to go in and say, I'm going to actively seek out these movies, right? Moonlight, The Lovers, and Kill of a Secret Deer. You're not going to just turn it on and be like, you know what? I'm just going to watch this movie. I feel like when you do that, you're they're going to have a love it or hate it reaction. And I feel like this is one that if audiences are aloof to it, it's because they're not getting what they expect out of Colin Farrell or Nicole Kuman, who are weird actors. And so it's like they they do as many indie films as they do commercial films. And that's really important because a lot of actors don't. They just want that Marvel money or that universal money.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:34

Well, they're not taken serious enough that they can. Like a Chris Hemsworth, they're not gonna put him in like a tiny indie movie because he just doesn't have he has to be in these commercial movies because that's what he does best. I don't know. Maybe there's strong opinions about Chris Hemsworth being a dramatic actor.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:51

Maybe someday he's in like the kind of movie where you know he has to actually, you know, to be more of an actor than just a character in presence.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:58

He was in that crime 101, then he that was probably the most dramatic role that he's in. Also with another Yurgos regular who is Mark Russell. It was good.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:09

But also, too, going back to the polarization thing, honestly, I think that could be said about almost all, if not well, not all, but almost all of A24's movies. Because like you think about I thought about five when we were talking, and I'm like, that's polarizing, that's polar like all of them. You have to kind of decide. Like, I'm gonna sit down and watch.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:25

Yeah, they're they're not comfort movies, these are they are handpicked for that purpose. I think they are trying to push art forward and also build a brand that's associated with quality.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:36

Because they're going with the boldness, they're going with something different. And when you go with something bold and radical, it's gonna lead to a polarizing reception because that's just the name of the game.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:47

It's the new new Hollywood, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:48

Yep. Yep. Now that we covered the this category, let's do our ratings. And to be fair, let's go with Darren first, and then we'll go from there. So, Darren, what is your rating for for this category?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:03

Uh, what I've said before, uh, acting, directing is high concept. And uh, while the adult leads are sturdy and reliable, most notable performance are the dead eyed intensity of Barry Keegan and the complex, never-shifting performance from Rafi Cassidy as Kim Murphy. For me, this is the highlight of the film. This is the draw, and that and Yorgos' um direction and style and everything about this, so I am going to give it a perfect score of five.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:27

Ooh, our first five of the day. Derek coveted strong, just like uh Martin in this movie. Thank you, Derek, for that. Caelan, what is your rating for this category?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:38

Yorgos is one of my favorite directors, also. I always know him in for a time when I put on one of his movies. The only thing that I thought was a little weird was that I thought it was strange that they cast people with accents and only let Colin use his accent. Nicole pretty much didn't have one. Barry didn't really have one. So I was wondering if that was there was a purpose to that or if it was just because there has to be a purpose to that, because it's like, okay, you have to speak American. I don't know, maybe there's some backstory that we didn't know or something. I just thought that that was a little weird, but otherwise, casting perfectly fine. Again, we've said it a million times, but Barry Yogan is the best person for that role. Everybody else, you could probably cast somebody else for Nicole Kidman, Colin Farrell, whatever. But yes, I thought the casting was good. The only thing that made me drop it a little bit was the dialogue drove me mad. I get the point of why we did it, but oh my God, after an hour of it, you're just like, you're so you kind of just see, like you'd become a zombie listening to everybody talk like zombies for an hour, and you're just like, oh my god, just any emotion, please, just somebody emote. It felt like watching a Wes Anderson movie, but I understand that like he uses dialogue so that like you focus less on the dialogue and more on the beauty of the scene that he's creating. And here it was for a much different purpose, so it felt like like Wes Anderson takes place in a hospital or something. But yeah, I still gave it a pretty high score, just the same. I gave it a four.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:53

Great. Uh thank you, Caitlin, for uh for that Raiden. Uh Amanda, what is your Raiden?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:58

So I gave it a five. I really appreciated the world that that Yorgos created. I I was long for the ride with with everything that happened. I thought, as we've talked about, the casting is is incredible for this. I I think the acting is really great. Everybody just at the top of their games, even if they only had a 15-minute scene like Alicia Silverstone. So I I think he really hit it out of the park. So five in this category.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:27

Great. Uh thank you, Amantha. I gave this a four for this category. It is a very typical Yorgos production, and all the reasons why I like him, and I think the performances are really also the standout, especially Keogen. Um, I think the only reason why I docked it from not being a five is I felt like at times it's a little too stylized. And I I think what we were just talking about, sometimes there's this uh polarization with directors. I think sometimes it felt a little too stylized, like Caitlin was saying about how okay, this the dialogue after a while it's a little too much. I feel like some of the things maybe it laid a little too thick. Um, and I think even some of the themes and some of the motifs and metaphors maybe it's a little too abstract. And I think that is what prevented me from giving this a perfect vibe, but it's really great, and I think that he um he's really one of our best directors, Birkin today. And I think that this is I think a really good example, too. Of if you like the favorite, if you like poor things or begonia, then go to this one. Don't start with Kill of Ziggler Tear. That is cray cray, people.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:38

I was trying to remember which one I saw first. I don't know if it was this or the favorite, but I I know I didn't really know who Yorgos was when I saw this. So if I saw it now, I'd be like, oh, I know what I'm in for, but when I saw it then, it was like, oh, what is this?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:50

Dog Tooth was mine, and that is a cerebral first film. The favorite was mine. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:57

No, Dog Tooth was the first one I saw when it was nominated for the Oscar. But it's like those charts you see online for like how to watch David Lynch films based on like your reactions to each you start with uh blue velvet and how you react to that, you go off and shoot here. So, yeah, this is definitely not the movie you start with. And I would say start with something a little bit more gentle, like um poor things, or then see what how you respond to the lobster. If you respond to the lobster in a way, it's like, oh, I really like how quirky and weird and high concept. Then try killing of a sacred. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:31

Yeah, don't don't start off with this one, folks. Now we're gonna transition to category three. We're gonna talk about the visual and technical elements, and I'm gonna kick it over to Amanda to introduce that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:43

So in this category, we're looking at things like cinematography, editing, special effects, costume, production design, and design. In particular, for this category, I really focused a lot on the cinematography. I'm looking at how do I feel when I'm looking at different scenes? What am I looking at? And the voyeur aspect of this is just very prevalent throughout the film. And as Nick was talking about a little bit in our last category, there's a lot of just really far wide shots. Uh, in particular, when Martin is listening to Kim in the park sing, you you start out really zoomed in on them, and then we and then we zoom away as to if we're walking away from from the scene. And as Nick was saying, where we were where Steven and his family are having dinner, we're looking in the window at them, and and then the camera is slowly zooming in on going into the house, and then we're shooting the dinner from above and and and looking at it from that angle before we're finally focusing on each person's face. And there's that beautiful scene where that where the turn is happening in the hospital where Anna and Bob are going down the escalator, and it's this really far wide above shot where you can't even hear what they're saying to each other, and you're just seeing them go down this escalator, and all of a sudden Bob just falls on the floor when they get to the bottom of it, and you know that he's not okay. There's definitely something happening here, and that's how we go through the rest of the film. And Lanthamos actually uh Jorgis actually talks a lot about this in interviews, and on the Nothing Concrete podcast, he said we did use a lot of high angles and wide angle lenses, and the camera moved behind and around people in a kind of menacing way, and also from very low angles and creeping in from underneath. He said, I think the intention was to create this atmosphere of another presence of a certain kind of entity, almost in a subtle way being around the characters of this film. So it was definitely visually and atmospherically intentional. So he specifically talks about sort of having this other kind of otherworldly thing, even looking at it, and as Darren was even mentioning, very kind of it even seems as if to be a documentary type aspect. So I so I'm curious what others thought, you know, about not only the cinematography, but also about some of the other elements of like this category.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:06

It's very much like you're watching on a security camera.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:11

That is the vibe that I get from it. And it occurred to me that that is what you're seeing from the cinematography. It's being presented as if you are a god observing something that's happening as opposed to um someone who is just watching a movie where ordinary things happen because the inevitability is enforced through all of the elements.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:32

I think for me, the production choices of where they shot on location in Cincinnati in particular mattered here. And I think it really helped give a lot of the things that we were talking about, because I pay attention especially to the diner and like the interior shots of the diner or the hospital, or even when you're looking at their house, like their house is very large, and it's a weird house because I can't even tell if they have neighbors really, but even the way that the house is, you can't even see really anything that's like other neighbors, really, with this one large mansion, it's isolated, and I feel like that also harbors back to the themes of the film, like this detachment to the world that these characters exhibit. And most of the film really takes place inside. That's why when we see shots of them outside, like when they're going on the walk, um with the bridge, yeah, yeah. Or like outside the hospital or near the water. But one thing I did want to kind of talk about here, and I think it's really interesting. If we compare the houses with Steven's family and Martin's family, and it's really interesting because uh Martin says that he lives in not a Greek neighborhood, he really downplays it. And so as someone who lived in Ohio for graduate school, I can tell you, of course, like any state and any city, there's really good and bad parts. But I'm looking at Martin's house, and it looks like a perfectly urban slash suburban house. I mean, it's nothing all that special really about the house, but it looks like a relatively nice uh house. And I think that actually connects to the themes of the film because there's this idea of like Martin wanting to be a part of Steven's family in a way, and doing really anything he can to get into that world. And if you're comparing the two houses, of course, Steven's family is way nicer, but I also thought the fact that he's really kind of denigrating or berated his family here by saying, like, oh, I live in a not the best neighborhood and blah blah blah, it just kind of didn't. I don't know if that makes sense, guys, but I'm just saying I thought that was really interesting, like the houses that they chose for the for the film.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:56

And plus looking between the two pictures, at least Martin is neighbors.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:01

True.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:01

Yeah, but you never see them.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:03

Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:05

It's like this is definitely a world where you're meant to feel isolated. Like everyone is uh there's six or seven people, and even when they're in the diner, you don't have like any notable people in the background or any movement or anything. Everything always seems like you're existing on an island where this is happening and like nothing is happening around you that affects anything. Like he doesn't go for help, he doesn't talk to anybody about this. It just seems like yeah, it's isolation is definitely a theme here.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:39

Like bleeding on the sidewalk, and nobody is like, nobody says anything about it the next day either, where there's like flood cards. Like anything happening we should know about, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:50

My ring camera shows your paralyzed daughter crawling and bleeding uh on the street. Everything cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:56

It's fine.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:58

It's these days.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:00

It's an internal family thing, you wouldn't understand. Like no neighbors come up, so you can tell that they just aren't either they aren't close with with the people around them, or it's a thing of these are very gated neighborhoods, these are neighborhoods where rich people live, so they keep to themselves. That could also, I guess, lend itself to to the to the vibe of of where they live and and and the lack of neighbors that are visible.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:23

So and it takes up almost the entire space, just their house. Because when I first watched this film on HBO, I kind of took notices and I thought to myself, is it like a condo townhouse? Because you know, sometimes they're very on top of one another. But then I thought to myself, no, no, no, this is their mansion, this is their actual house. The money that that surgery built.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:45

Surgeons and an ophthalmist as well paid as well. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:49

Yeah, so if she's an optomologist as opposed to an optometrist, and she has a clinic, I think she has her own clinic, or maybe even charge of one. So that's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:59

Yeah, they make they make a lot of money between two high earners.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:03

I think her daughter, like the daughter takes singing lessons or vocal lessons or something separate. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:08

And I think it also symbolizes this idea of class too with the film, like middle class versus like upper class slash rich, like a higher class level. Something I thought the film did really well with, too. If we're gonna talk about the technical aspects, I thought the music was really good here. It created anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:26

Yeah, especially with Martin, you get a lot of the the eerier, more high-pitched kind of music for him. So so those were just ways that that kind of heightened it whenever he was on screen. And then the the operatic score that you hear over the over the surgery in the beginning was was interesting. It's a very grandiose score for something very grandiose that's that's going on.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:53

Sets sets the tone for the uh the mythical uh mythical Greek tragedy that you're about to see.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:00

It reminds me of the last movie we said, the lovers where had that grandiose like European vibe.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:05

And instead of pouring wine this time, or like small on the phone for eight minutes.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:10

Yeah, scores are very important to uh Yorgos' films. I mean, it's just another way of setting the tone and the pace of the movie in the way that they want. It's all very precise, and it usually works really, really well.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:22

He always has a very swelling score right at the end, like right before the credits every time.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:28

There's also an industrial score in here. Like you sometimes hear clanking and other things.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:32

I actually noticed that because I had full of captioning on, and over the credits it scuffed, scuff, and I'm like, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:22:40

Yes, oh yeah, during the credit. Yeah, during the credits. I don't know. It reminded me of the sounds you would hear when you're playing that video game Silent Hill, and like you know, one of the people that drags their scythe behind them as they approach.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:56

Yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:58

Very creepy.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:00

I think that the music is also very jarring the way it ends in certain moments, and I think that's actually connects to the film thematically, because there's a lot of things that just happen that are very odd, and that's the only way I can sort of put it. Uh I thought that you know, to me, this is a question I was gonna ask to the group about the technical aspects. Do you guys feel like this was a well-edited film in terms of the pacing? Like, could this have been reduced a little bit with the same effect?

SPEAKER_04 1:23:31

It definitely drags a little bit towards the end. It just seems like, well, you pause it to go do something, and it's just like, wait, there's still 40 minutes left of this movie. It's very slowly paced, and it seems like it could have been a little bit shorter. So the editing was good, but I think it could have maybe been better. Uh, but that's also comes down to the screenplay.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:52

I've always this is maybe something because I do the podcast and I edit shows, is that I always think like an editor now, and I'm like, okay, do we really need to be two full hours? My instinct is no. I think they could have cut 15-20 minutes easily with the same exact resolution that you would have here. Because I think halfway through, and we'll talk about it when we get to like the final, final rate-ins get the end, is that that's what turned me off initially about the film, was because I felt like it was too slow at times. Sometimes you need it like almost like a reset of the next scene, and it's just that same staticness to it, which is why I think it works better on a rewatch, but that the editing just made it feel a little I don't know, just it felt like it could have been chopped a little, is what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:39

First time that you would watch this, um, the way that it's edited and how it slow burns towards the end, it's very front-loaded as far as how the action goes, and then at the end, it just takes forever. I imagine that it's a very anxiety-inducing, and uh maybe that's intentional to like just try and make you, the audience, you know, yeah deal with this as long as possible.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:01

I think the especially when he Martin describes the three phases of what's gonna happen to the it did take a while to get to the eyes bleeding part, and I was very much braced for that. So that was increasing my anxiety as I was not sure what that was. What are their eyes gonna play? And it's just as weird as I thought it was, but wasn't horrible. Um, but I agree that I I do think they do a good job of I I think you needed the slow burn for the building the relationship with Martin and showing how Stephen and he interact and how he ingratiates himself with Stephen's family. But then there are other scenes, there's a lot of tests that are given to Bob to figure out what is wrong with him. That whole thing with Anna and Matthew in the car, where it was basically implied that he had wanted to sleep with Anna anyway, and they had already talked about it at the diner when he's giving her when he says he can get her information on what happened during the surgery on um Martin's father. So I don't think we really needed that car scene of her d doing whatever she was doing to Matthew there, you know. But I so I think that that could have been caught. So there are a few scenes where maybe we didn't necessarily need as much, though I do think all the stuff between Steven and Martin was very, very crucial to the film.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:19

A little bloated. That that's that's the word that I keep going back to. And I think that's sometimes what I feel like uh Yorgos maybe maybe is one of his weaknesses as a director. Sometimes it's almost like there's too much because even it's kind of epic. Yeah, I think we covered almost all the big things for the visual technical elements. Was there anything else we wanted to add that we haven't already?

SPEAKER_03 1:26:41

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:43

Okay, well, uh Amanda, you led the our category and started it, so we'll let you go first.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:49

Yeah, I I gave this a four. Like I said, I think the cinematography really lends itself to the anxiety that you feel throughout the film. The music does that as well. A lot of the visual elements, as we've discussed, are very visceral between you know the close-ups of the spaghetti that we talked about, just the redness, the squishiness of that, and the close-up of the beating heart in the beginning. So, and and the music as well. I think all of that just lends itself to this very unsettling, sinister environment that uh Lanthabos has created. There aren't that many really hard-hitting special effects, things like the costumes, uh, that kind of stuff. So that's why uh I'm gonna give it, that's why I'm giving it a four, just because there wasn't really a lot of that that was in here to warrant really a perfect. I know I'm a bit hypocritical where I gave like this a five and moonlight for that kind of thing, but I that's it's a very different film compared to this, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:50

I think that's fair. And I'll go next uh for this Raiden. I give this also a four because I thought they did a really wonderful job with the cinematography. And with all the uh on location shoot-in and the music in particular. The only reason why I docked it a point really was just because the edit-in. And I feel like the edit-in could have made this a little bit tighter, a little bit stronger. Because it it is inherently an abstract film, but I feel like there's just some things I think that uh, like we were mentioning some of the scenes where they could either removed it, tightened it, or did something better with it. Uh, but it's still really strong overall. Uh Kaylin, what is your rating for this category?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:32

Yeah, so essentially I feel the same exact way as Amanda. I just gave it a different score. So for me, I felt like the music was very strong, but it wasn't super strong on other elements. Like I thought that the cinematography was good enough to make you feel that there's a sterile feel to everything, but it didn't like wow me. I always, I don't know why. Whenever I think of sun, like cinematographies, I think of sunsets, like specifically the one in Legends of the Fall. That's always the first thing that comes into my head of like, but how does it compare to the sunset in Legends of the Fall? So not super strong on that angle. So I gave it a three, but really for the same exact reasons that Amanda gave it a four. It's just I gave it a different score.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:07

You know, sometimes that's the way the cards are dealt when we give our ratings, even if there's really not that much of a difference, really, in terms of our logic or reasoning. Uh Dered, what's your rating for this uh category?

SPEAKER_04 1:29:20

Okay, uh, for this category, uh cinematography and shot composition are extremely important to this film's success and does a magnificent job in both of those areas. Uh beyond those stylistic elements, the film isn't terribly flashy in the other technical elements. Uh there aren't any anything that's notably deficient, although the editing is a concern. So uh I am giving it a score of four.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:42

Great. Uh thank you, Darren, for that. Now we're going to go to the fourth and final category, which is this cultural and social relevance. So we'll hand it off to Kaelin, who will introduce that category to us.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:55

All right. So this tends to be one of my favorite categories. This is when we talk about whether or not the film had timely or enduring themes, and what kind of social commentary it speaks on, and if there's any, well, if there's always, but if there's proper representation and identity of characters in the film that we want to expound on. So yeah, for me, yeah, I said that it was timely because anytime something builds on older themes involving like Greek mythology, things like that, how can it not be timely? Because it's always timely. You can always reinvent. I don't want to say like it's a tale, but I guess it's a tale, I guess. So you can always reinterpret it and make it timely. It's kind of fluid that way. In terms of being relevant, I'd said it was evergreen, the really same reasons. Like, yeah, it can always be relevant. I think I'm pretty much just said the same thing twice, but that's yeah. Um, I didn't think that there was any real representation here. I mean, the characters are who they are, and essentially everybody who's in this film is a metaphor for something else. They're not real people, they kind of just represent the idea of a person. So for me, that wasn't really like hardcore representation. So based on the fact that it is relevant, it is timely, but even though the representation kind of slacked a little bit, uh yeah, I mean, I felt like this was a pretty strong category insofar as being culturally relevant. Socially, not so much, but culturally, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:16

So see, to me, this was arguably the weakest of the four categories for this film, just because it deals with a predominantly white upper middle class family.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:25

And I Well, now I feel bad, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:28

Oh no, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:29

I didn't mean no, no, it's fine. It's fine. You're right, you're absolutely right. Like, yeah, there's nobody that isn't white in the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:35

But I think that that's like what lends itself a bit to the social kind of relevance to this in terms of as Nick was talking about earlier with the class aspect. So the idea with Martin's mother talking about, you know, Stephen's beautiful hands, just the the this kind of these kind of airs that are put in this kind of projection that is put on surgeons and surgeons having this type of power and and getting away with things, and and that tends to be something more that rich people are able to do versus somebody maybe in Martin's kind of social class, where you know, kind of rich people get away with things all the time, like possibly doing surgeries wrong, and where and where poorer people suffer. So I I think you get a little bit of that kind of cultural social thing with the class structure kind of situation.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:25

Like the beautiful hands thing is also like versus like you know, somebody who works digging trenches all day versus somebody who's in the hospital and just using something.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:31

Yeah, needs their hands for something very delicate.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:34

Yeah, that's where the accountability comes in here. The reason why that's like so notable is because uh Colin Farrell's character is the type of person who isn't usually going to be held accountable for their mistakes. And this, the way that it's set up, it's like you're not going to be able, you're not suing, you're not getting the police involved. What you're doing is you're using a force that's even higher than money or the doctor or the protection that the hospital gives you. This is a force that you can't undo. And that is why it's so notable that it's what's being inflicted on this otherwise person who would be insulated from the consequences of their actions.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:10

Right. I think if we looked at it from the aspect of gender, it's actually kind of interesting because in Stephen's family, it's pretty traditional, right? In terms of the male authority figure and the wife and mother, the paternal instincts and so on. But I think what's really interesting is if we look at this through the lines of like uh masculinity, because we're seeing two different variations or fragmentations of these male characters, especially through Steven and Martin. Because even the hands comment, there is a distinction there because if you have rougher hands or more like lines or whatever, usually you're doing some type of physical labor, right? But the fact that his hands are soft and they look pristine, as I think Martin says about Steven's hands, that shows that he doesn't use his hands uh for like he's he's privileged in that sense because right.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:07

And that's why beating up Martin, you know, I think he like punches him or something, you know, is very significant because he's using his hands in this in this very physical, very aggressive manner that that he is probably not used to doing because that's his job, that's his livelihood, is to keep his body in a certain way.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:28

Surgeon who wrecks his hands doesn't have a career the next day and probably never recovers.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:32

Yeah, I mean I think of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:35

And I think also the fact, too, is that I think that it leads back to our idea of control, too, in terms of even like the hands comment, it's this idea that you know Steven is very methodical. And even when he punches and beats Martin and locks him in the garage, it's this idea that he's using violence as a way to deal with his aggression and his frustration. And it's almost like the opposite of the soft hands comment, essentially. And I'm just saying a soft hands just because, you know, that's the only way I can think of it in my head. And I guess the other thing with this film, too, that I think we were mentioned earlier, is this idea of class. Class is a sense of privilege, but also their lifestyles. And I think Martin goes to their house in part because he wants to be a part of that family, I think, but also be again. I keep going back to Salpern after watching this movie. I can't help but keep thinking of these two movies as like good companion films in the sense that it's almost like you're longing for something that you're not born into, right? Like something that you're not a part of, and it's almost like he's othered in that sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:45

Seeing how the other half lives kind of thing. Okay, he goes there.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:50

So it's really interesting if we look at this uh through the class dynamics as well, because I feel like there's a lot there. And I think this is arguably the weakest category, though, because I feel like you don't really see any characters of color or other characters outside these class dynamics or anything like that. It's to me, I don't think like when we were thinking of this category, I think that sometimes even good or great films like this, they could be docked because of things like that, because it's just not within the world of the film or the universe.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:24

It's not that type, it's not that type of film. No, right. It's it's not about exploring that kind of diversity. Right. And not every film has to be, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:32

Right, right. In addition to the gender dynamics, I think the familial ones are are really interesting too, in terms of how do you express love to your family, to your wife, to people around you. And at one point Anna tells uh Stephen that it makes sense to get rid of one of the children because we can have another one, you know, which is just wild to say as a as a as a thing. But it's but it's how do you how do you show your love to your husband, to whatever that's also something that this film is trying to explore, obviously with the Greek tragedy element of it as well. But yeah, just just how do families express themselves and express their love to each other? Yeah, just a wild thing to suggest though, just getting rid of the kids because we're younger.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:18

Rip off the next tissue off the top of the box.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:21

What's so strong about that to me is like, how come she doesn't see it as like, you know, my children are my children, I can get another husband to like, you know, just like me.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:30

Like, what about me so my children can live?

SPEAKER_04 1:37:32

You know, it's never an option for uh the father to die. That's never presented as an option. It's always gotta be he has to lose somebody, he can't sacrifice himself.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:42

That's like super crazy to me because he lost his father. Why can't the father just die? Yeah, that's true. He said nothing's gonna happen to Steven.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:49

Yeah, because then Stephen doesn't suffer. Stephen is dead, he's gone. Right. The point is the suffering. Yeah, he has to feel lost to his family.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:57

He has to ha experience the same thing that Martin went through. And he can't do it if he dies. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:03

So he doesn't get to make the noble sacrifice either.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:06

Right. Or it's just for how devoted Anna is to her children and how much he tries to save them. She's also saying, Well, just toss one. Like instead of saying sacrifice me so we can save my children.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:16

Well, she's not willing to do that because she's actually presented with an opportunity where it's like, oh, I want people to think well of me because I'd sacrifice myself for my kids. It's like, no, you literally have to. Yeah. But not everyone's cut out for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:28

That's true. Yeah, that's true. That is true. Um, and I think something else that uh we could add to this is that uh the children want to live. Like it's not like they're just like, please kill me. Like they're kim, right? It's a kim at the end.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:42

Yeah, isn't it? Is that real or is that a manipulation? I don't know. But the son a hundred percent, because he even says, Oh, I want to be a cardiologist, like you.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:51

Here's this wonderful, yeah, they're both definitely manipulating the dad. It's like I want to be just like you and I'll be obedient and I'll be good and I'll cut my hair and then look, I cut my hair here. Is a well-reasoned and very clinical representation on why it should be me. It's like, oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:06

There's actually one part that was funny because when she says to him, All right, basically, she's like, All right, we're not getting out of this. So my headphones or whatever have been on the fritz. So when you die, can I have yours?

SPEAKER_04 1:39:16

Like right.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:18

Like, all right, obviously you're gonna be the one that he kills. So, like, I'm gonna take your headphones or whatever it was.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:23

It's like the son also says they have a piano or something coming for him.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:27

Oh, yeah, she's like selling they're all selling each other to not be the same.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:31

So he says it can't be me because we have something we already ordered that's coming for me.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:36

That was actually funny. They've already made a commitment here.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:38

It's very expensive, it's a big and expensive as it can't be me. It was a piano, it was something really big and expensive and extractive. It was, yeah. Which is strange because he doesn't do the singing. I don't understand why it's a piano company.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:54

Accompaniment.

unknown 1:39:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:56

It's it's so wild. And I guess the other thing I would just bring up, and I think we kind of mentioned this earlier, is that most of the cast is not from America, including, of course, Yurkos himself, who's Greek. You got Colin Farrell and Barry Kiogen, who are Irish, you have Nicole Kibben who's Australian, the daughter Kim, who is English, and the rest are Americans, but it's really interesting because you were talking about us earlier, Kayla, about the accents or lack there of accents. And I think if we're looking at representation through that lens, it could also be that it's mostly non-Americans working on this movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:29

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's why I thought it was so weird. Like, how come Colin gets to keep his accent? But and then, like, that always drives me nuts in movies where actors have kids, because if you grow up with somebody who has an Irish accent, you're going to have an Irish accent. So I don't I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:44

It also depends on how everyone else surrounds you talks. Like, you know, it's like somebody who goes away to another country and lives there for a couple years, they come back with an accent. It's nothing to do with how they were raised, but it's just like you're surrounded by it, it's gonna happen. But um they never really they never really state where this movie is set. It's never a plot point or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:04

True, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:05

I mean it's all filmed in Cincinnati, I believe, but uh it the it's Cincinnati, the location's not a part of the plot.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:11

Yeah, I don't think there's the I don't think we know what hospital sp I mean we know but where it's filmed, uh basically, but we don't know you know what the specific name of it is in the film, as far as I know.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:21

It's just hospital and diner and mansion and lesser mansion. It's one of those films where the characters could all just be the doctor, the daughter, the son, the wife, the son, the victim or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:35

Right. So I did want to bring up Cincinnati because I think this is also super important. So it is, I don't know if people know this. I used to live in Ohio, but it is literally the number one city in Ohio in terms of like places to live for medical uh practices and hospitals.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:52

Interesting. They have a burn center there. Um, my uh dad was in a fire when I was a baby, and uh they ended up flying him to the Cincinnati burn center. Oh wow. Oh my god. Yeah, he no major uh damage, just some like third-degree burns and all that, but nothing permanent, no disability. But um, yeah, it's definitely up there with like Rochester, Minnesota, or Cleveland with the Cleveland Clinic for like the most famous medical cities in America.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:20

And it's interesting because it's the number one place to live in Ohio, it's consistently in the top 100 for cities and towns to live in, and for its medical centers and hospital stuff, it's consistently top 50. And even the cost of living is higher in Cincinnati than most in Ohio. And that's why I'm saying to myself, why am I bringing this up is that it brings up this idea of privilege and class because these characters live in the city, but it's also interesting because when you watch the film, unless you see a marker of Cincinnati, this could take place anywhere, quite frankly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:56

How would you even know you were looking at Cincinnati unless they went to a range?

SPEAKER_02 1:43:00

Yeah, I was thinking the picture you shared of Martin's house. I was like, that looks like Rhode Island.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:05

Right. Could be anywhere. Same with the diner, same with you know the hospital. It's very the hospital's very sterile looking.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:13

There's no markers or there aren't really any like major landmarks in Cincinnati that it doesn't have the arch like St. Louis or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:22

Was there anything else we wanted to uh talk about with the cultural social significance representation? Or have we covered most of it?

SPEAKER_01 1:43:30

I was a little disappointed they actually mentioned the name of the Greek tragedy that this is based off of in when the he's talking to the principal. I don't know. I didn't I didn't think we needed to put a hat on a hat kind of thing. If you read it afterwards or read it before that what this was based on, you didn't really need to say it out.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:48

It's not the most famous one though. It's not the most well-known Greek tragedy. And you're talking about like the one percenters of people who watch movies like this that are gonna understand that sort of thing or research it without being told. So I think maybe it maybe you there's a reason to put some reference in there. Although, would that actually be what they would be thinking in the movie? It's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:09

I mean, are they gonna know about that? Maybe the doctors and they're at an intellectual level where they're be familiar with this, but also isn't it kind of weird that it's actually happening in their lives? Maybe it'd be better if they didn't bring that up. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:24

I just think it laid a too thick a time. So it's kind of like it's sort of like when a character is almost on to the audience, or like, you know that this movie is based on fourth wall to worry wake up.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:38

This is just like the Odyssey.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:42

I hope they mentioned the Odyssey and the Odyssey that comes down.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:45

That would be a bit much because it's literally the Odyssey. Yes, this certainly has been an Odyssey, yes, Homer.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:56

It has. To the Iliad. Wow, I love that we continued on that because that's amazing. You guys you should write movies. You know what? The four of us should get it. You know, this got the screenplay at Cans. You know what? We have dreams. Let's go for it. Let's write a movie together.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:16

Like there's four sentences.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:17

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:18

Yeah, I know, I know.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:21

Wow, and you guys did that professionally.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:26

Yikes. Well, I think we can't top that in category four. So let's move on to our read-ins. And because Caitlin, you led the category, or let you go first.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:39

So now I feel bad, but I did give it a four. And yeah, uh I gave it a four because of how I feel like Greek mythology will always be relevant. So that was like the strongest reason why I gave it a four, because it's evergreen content and uh I work in content, so that's important to me. So yeah, I'm glad I didn't give it a five based on the lack of representation, but I'm still sticking to my four because, like we said before, not every story needs it, not every story calls for it. If you're looking for a story where there are a bunch of white people who end up in trouble, then this is your story. So, yes, I think that based on the material we are working with, it is solid enough that I gave it a four.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:18

On the plus side, all the people who suffer in this movie are white too.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:21

That's true. Yes. That's very true. See, now I feel a little better.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:26

There you go. Same vindicated.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:28

Never feel bad. It's your opinion. That's how I feel. So don't feel bad, Galen. Okay. But let's go to Derek next. Darrell, what's your rating for this category?

SPEAKER_04 1:46:39

All right. Uh, I think that the film has a timeless message about personal responsibility, morality, and justice. And despite the modernity of the setting, this concept could have been presented thousands of years ago and been just as easily understood. That being said, the old world wisdom does put a ceiling on how topical the film can be. There's nothing about this story that requires it to be set in the present, and therefore it doesn't have as much to say about our current world, leading me to give it a score a four out of five in this category.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:06

Great. Uh, thank you, Darren. I'll go next. Uh, so I gave this a three out of five because like I kind of spoiled my reading a little when I first spoke about this category. I think this is the weakest one for this film, just because it's not the intention of the film. Yeah, we talked about things of like uh gender, class, all that. That's all good, but that's not the emphasis on a movie like this. It's not really focusing on social issues or relevant to representation. That's not what this movie is. So I almost feel bad in a way because it because my spoiler about this movie is that I did not like it at all when I first watched it, and I actually kind of do now because I know what to expect, and that's why rewatches are so important. Um, but it just felt too abstract and philosophical for it to be higher than a three for me. So that's just my reasoning for that. Umanda, the best for last. Uh, what is your read-in for this?

SPEAKER_01 1:48:03

I gave it, I give it a two. I think the themes of of class are really interesting in terms of how very wealthy people can can get away with things and without having consequences most of the time for their actions. So I thought that was very interesting. I think the familial aspects, as I mentioned, definitely come into play here and and the themes about love and and sacrifice, the the Greek uh story part of it really well integrated throughout the throughout the film. But as we're as we talked about, this isn't like a moonlight or even something I I mean, I know the lovers wasn't loved by all of us, but even something like the lovers, and in talking about people who are older, who have fulfilling relationships and are very sexually active, things like that. Even it it didn't even really have a very meaningful theme like that for me. So without something very meaningful to grab onto, that's why it ended up being in the lower part of my ranking. So so two for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:03

I think that was the lowest rating of the entire thing, right, Darren?

SPEAKER_04 1:49:08

Yep. That is the only one that is less than a three.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:11

And I mean there were a couple fives, like very spare, but yeah, wow. What a way to end it.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:17

Yeah, a controversy. You know what? Do you believe this is a polarizing film?

SPEAKER_04 1:49:24

Nobody nobody gave this a five in this category, so it wasn't too polarizing. We were all kind of like this is the weak part of the movie. Yeah, we kind of all agree on that front.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:34

Yeah, uh very interesting to note the scores now, Darren, because you're our numbers guy. So we're gonna let you talk about whether this is a twenty four essential or not. So take it away, Darren.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:47

All right. Well, based on the combined ratings for all four categories and the fact that only myself gave the film a total score of 16 or higher, the killing of a sacred deer is not viewed by the Reviewers of this podcast to be an A24 essential film, which requires three out of four reviewers meeting the threshold of 16.4 higher. Though it was very close. I gave it a combined score of 17. Kaelin and Nick gave it a 15, and Amanda gave it a 14, giving it an average score of 15.25, which qualifies it as the second highest grade of almost potential. Overall, The Killing of a Sacred Deer is the second highest rated film of the three films reviewed so far with a total score of 61. In comparison, the highest rated film overall remains Moonlight with a score of 77. The film ranks as the second highest rated film for all four individual reviewers as well, with myself ranking it as the closest to Moonlight overall by a margin of two points 19 to 17. Kaelin favors Moonlight by a score of 18 to 15, Nick by 20 to 15, and Amanda by 20 to 14.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:56

Wow, I'm still on that screen. It was me.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:57

I messed it up with the two points. No, I wouldn't have changed the overall. I had it a three originally and then just didn't hit for me.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:10

Wow. Two of you would have had to at least have at least a one-point shift in order for it to get to the essential levels.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:16

So you know what it is now that I'm thinking about it, we did not give really that many fives. And I think that's what's going to mess up whether it's a 24 essential or not. Because I think, Derek, how many fives did you give out? One or two?

SPEAKER_04 1:51:30

I gave one five and three fours.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:32

Okay. Because I gave three fours and a three. I only have one five.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:37

The way that the way the system is currently set up, you have to average a four on all four categories, which means that if you have anything below a four, it has to be countered by a five. Amanda gave a five for direction and acting, as did I, and uh everything else was a three or four except Amanda for cultural and social relevance.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:57

So I guess that's the rule of thumb that I had to we have to think about when we're compiler scores that unless you hit fives consistently, it's gonna be really hard to be A24 essential.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:07

Yeah. I think that's good though. I mean, not every there's gonna be a high standard list.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You want it to be the highest standard, like you're talking like 10% or less, maybe I would think.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:19

So it's really interesting. We started off with an A24 essential film with Moonlight, and then something that was not A24 Essential by us, we're the lovers, and then this one is almost A24 Essential. So, really, our fourth film is gonna determine whether we're the lovers or the haters, is what I'm gonna call us for now on, with this uh thing, because that's really interesting. We have uh a film representing each of our three categories now, yeah. So, wow, okay, no words. I was thinking that this was gonna be A24 Essential.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:51

So me too. I really was. I'm shocked.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:54

It's more shocking that I was the one that was the most aloof on it, and I gave it higher scores.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:02

That's Starship Troopers meme. I did my part, I did my part, I did my part, I didn't do oh my god. The Tim Tim, not not Tim and Eric, but um I think you should leave meme.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:16

Oh, hell yes. So thank you so much for that, Darren. Uh, that's just the way that the cards are dealt here. But on this show, we like to figure out our next movie. So let's go to the Wheel of Names website. And by the way guys, look at I added the E24 logo for our podcast. I know very nice. We should take a picture of that for social media because that's amazing. Yeah, so wheel of morality, yes. So, as promised with the last episode, I we will update the list to include films that were released in between our episodes. And this is also good because when you're listening to the show, you know when we record it based on when these films were put out by A24. So the two films that were added were Mark by Sophia, Sophia Koplis documentary about Mark Jacobs, and then of course the drama with Zendaya and Robert Pattinson. That's been a really big hit for A24. Uh yeah, so those are the two films that are added. So before we spin the wheel, I'm gonna ask our hosts impromptually, even though I had this prepared for weeks, what would you like our next film to be in terms of style or era or genre? Like, what is it that you guys want? So, Amanda, what like what would you want our next film to hypothetically be before we spin the wheel?

SPEAKER_01 1:54:40

I I I've really enjoyed that we've stuck to some of the earlier films in the A24 catalog. So I think something like Spring Breakers would be an interesting one. You got a little humor, you got a little dark stuff in here. So very, very different vibes compared to the other films. And it was a big hit for A24 back in the day. So I I I like that we're doing some of the older ones, so that would be the one for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:05

Cool. Caitlin, what what are you hoping the wheel spins or the type of movie?

SPEAKER_02 1:55:10

I'm actually the opposite. I kind of want something a little newer, maybe like the newer the better, especially since I've seen some of the ones that have been in the theaters recently. And you know me, like getting to a theater can be hard for me. So I would love to talk about one of the more newer ones.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:23

That I'm gonna go to Darren after me because that was exactly my thought. Because we picked films from 2016 and 2017. And I feel like this wheel is cursed in the sense that we just keep picking films from those years. So I'm like, give me something from the 2020s. I don't even care what it is, quite frankly. Just give me something a little bit more recent. Uh Darren, what what are you hoping the wheel picks or does?

SPEAKER_04 1:55:48

I'd like something stylistically interesting, maybe something topical. I mean, I can only see the most recent ones on here, but you know, uh something Ariaster or Safety Brothers or something would be really interesting. But generally just something that is better, scores better on cultural relevance would be cool, but also something that's stylistically interesting or maybe has some good visual effects.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:09

Okay. I thought this was a good thing to add before.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:12

Oh, ex machina would be a good choice.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:14

Yes. X Machina, let's see. Okay, so guys, let's be so weird as a lands on it.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:21

Uh that would be amaz that would be like I'm controlling it because it's like one in 180 something.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:27

You know what? We're gonna play the lottery.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:29

If X Machine is the fact that we've gotten movies that we've heard of two out of three times. Well, one out of the two times is remarkable.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:36

Yeah, let's see what the wheel spins, guys. Are you ready? When you hear the noise, you know it's gonna spin.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:57

The eternal daughter. That sounds familiar. Yeah, that's a recent one.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:02

Oh, Joanna Hogg? Okay, she's a known director. Oh, Tilda Swim.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:07

It's only an hour and thirty-six minutes.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:09

I don't think I've seen this one yet. Oh my god, Darren hasn't seen it, so we we are in for a channel.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:17

Okay, we can rent it.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:18

It can be rented, so it's an hour 36. Uh, what's the synopsis?

SPEAKER_00 1:57:23

Yes. Ooh, let's find out, Darren.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:26

Ooh, I have it on here, I think. Um, it says returning to a hotel now haunted by its mysterious past, an artist and her elderly mother, both played by Tilvis Winton, confront long-buried secrets in their former family home.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:38

Hmm. So it's actually a horror movie by A24, which means I'm probably going to love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:43

Close my eyes during it.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:45

It's an A24 horror movie, so it probably is going to be more cerebral than uh jump scares.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:52

Those are my favorite, though. I love cerebral movies.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:55

I do like a cerebral movie.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:58

I have never seen this one, so uh look forward to it being our May movie.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:02

Ooh, BBC.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:03

What else has Joanna Hogg made? I know that name.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:06

Uh, she made a couple of movies that were connected right before she made this one. The Sylvania. Souvenir.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:13

Alright. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:14

Souvenir, British director.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:17

Yeah, she's most famous for souvenir and souvenir part two.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:21

I haven't seen that.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:22

Quite good.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:24

Definitely a solid pick because none of us have seen it for the best of our knowledge. So that we're gonna go over fresh perspective. But with all that said, thank you all so much for coming on tonight. It was a lot of fun to do this episode.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:41

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:42

As always, guys, you can follow us at 824Gold to pretty much any social media platform. We're on Instagram, Facebook, Blue Sky, Twitter, Threads, all the places, or even on Letterboxd. So follow us on any of those platforms. And if you like what you heard and you want to support independent podcasters like ourselves, you could definitely do it by supporting the Patreon at A24CaratGold. If you like what you heard in this episode, leave us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify that helps people discover the show and all the content that we produce. It actually does do a lot of good things when you leave especially five-star reviews for our shows. With all that said, thank you, Kaylin, Darren, and Amanda for being on the show, and thank you to our listeners for checking this episode out. We'll see you all next one!