Boundaries & Banter
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Boundaries & Banter
Narcissism Reality Check: Love Bombing, Gaslighting & Real Boundaries | Therapist Bernadine Fried
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Welcome back to Boundaries & Banter — the podcast where sisters-in-law Taryn & Michela get real about family, relationships, boundaries, and mental health without the fluff.
In this eye-opening episode, we welcome back licensed therapist Bernadine Fried to break down narcissism — one of the most talked-about (and often misused) topics on social media today.
Berni explains narcissism as a spectrum (malignant/grandiose vs. covert/vulnerable traits), classic tactics like love bombing, gaslighting, devaluation & discarding, how narcissists react to boundaries, what narcissistic parenting really looks like (golden child vs scapegoat), the gray rock method, radical acceptance, and why true closure is often a fantasy.
Raw, honest, and packed with practical tools for protecting your peace.
Timestamps:
00:00 Welcome Back to Bernadine Fried
00:25 What Narcissism Actually Is (The Spectrum Explained)
04:00 Malignant Narcissist Traits & Examples
08:15 Vulnerable / Covert Narcissism
12:45 Love Bombing, Gaslighting & Classic Tactics
20:00 Why Empaths Are Often Drawn to Narcissists
24:30 How Narcissists React to Boundaries
28:40 Gray Rock Method & Protecting Your Nervous System
34:00 Narcissistic Parents: Golden Child vs Scapegoat
41:00 Narcissism in Marriage & Romantic Relationships
45:00 Radical Acceptance, Grief & Finding Closure
50:40 Is the Term “Narcissist” Overused?
58:20 Final Thoughts & Would You Rather
If you’ve ever wondered “Is this person a narcissist?” or struggled to set boundaries with difficult personalities, this episode gives you clarity and real tools.
Drop a comment: Have you dealt with narcissistic traits in family or relationships? What helped you?
Subscribe for more boundary conversations, follow us on Instagram @boundariesandbanter.
#Narcissism #Gaslighting #NarcissisticAbuse #Boundaries #ToxicRelationships #LoveBombing #MentalHealthPodcast #GrayRocking #FamilyDynamics
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Welcome back to Valentin's Inventor. We are your hosts, Taryn and Michaela. Today we welcome back our very special guest, Bernadine Freed, a licensed therapist. And we're going to be discussing narcissism, which is a word that has completely taken over social media. So, Bernie, let's jump right into it. How would you define narcissists, narcissism? How would you define it?
SPEAKER_03Well, it's it's funny that it's only just now getting on social media. I'm a little bit like surprised by the fact that as a therapist, we've been working with it for, you know, 20 some odd years. Um first of all, I think number one, it's very important to think of narcissism on a spectrum. That there's the extreme narcissist, which is more like the malignant narcissist, which is the grandiosity, the dominant, like superiority, they're entitled to the world. And then there's other elements of narcissism that are more in the field of what we would call traits. So there are several different forms of narcissism, like the malignant, as I said, which is very extreme and pretty obvious to identify. You can pretty well feel when somebody is um on that level, the very dominating superiority, all of that.
SPEAKER_00Can you sorry, just to just to back up, can you tell us what that looks like? Like give us an example of the archetype.
SPEAKER_03So a malignant narcissist is somebody that has massive superiority. They deserve the best seat in the house. They are entitled to rolling out the red carpet at all times. Um, when they enter a room, they tend to dominate with a level of superiority that borders on complete obnoxiousness. They're the royal one.
SPEAKER_00They are. They're the loudest in the room.
SPEAKER_03They are, and they're dominating any and all of everything. And when the focus isn't on them, they get very um dysregulated. And so it's kind of all eyes on me at all times. And they are the no at all of all things. Um, and they tend to be pretty critical and biding to the people around them because they need to maintain that I am the most important person in the room, kind of uh interesting seniority.
SPEAKER_02Then you said there's someone that the opp the another type of narcissist would be someone who has the traits, right? So would you classify that person, like if they have a a few narcissistic traits, are they a narcissist or they just, you know, need to work on parts of themselves?
SPEAKER_03That question makes sense. That's a really good question because, you know, almost like autism is on a spectrum, not just similar to narcissism being on a spectrum. So the traits are maybe there's characteristics. Would you define them as a narcissist? Yeah, depending on how many traits there are. But you can sort of see they're they're called more of the vulnerable narcissist, or what we would probably term a covert narcissist. So they're kind of a little undercover with it, but when it comes out, it's pretty significant. How would it come out? Um, it would come out as anger in in a very abrupt way, incredibly opinionated and belittling um in sometimes nuanced ways. Like, um, why are you wearing that right now? Um, you know, just out of nowhere. Or you'll be at a dinner table um in just a normal conversation, and then all of a sudden they'll bring up potentially a fight that you two had the night before.
SPEAKER_02So to make themselves always look better.
SPEAKER_03Correct. Okay. But it's not like as palpable as it is with somebody that's malignant, where you're just like, oh, it's all about them at all times. It tends to be a little bit like sharky, a little like under the surface comes out and bites.
SPEAKER_00For a malignant narcissist, would it be fair to say, like on the very extreme end of the spectrum, you have kind of like a psychopath kind of thing?
SPEAKER_03Um, basically, I mean, they're incredibly hard to treat because if you think of the actual injury itself, it usually happens between birth to three years old. So it's often even pre-verbal that sense of I cannot go to my caregiver. So then what they do is they become this overinflated, grandiose self. Um, and it really stems from incredibly early abandonment, um, which is where it's usually rooted when it's at that really high level of what's considered in like what the DSM or something.
SPEAKER_02So you become a narcissist based on how you were uh raised. Yes. Okay. Does a person that is a narcissist, do they know?
SPEAKER_03Um, good question. It really depends on the person. Um, oftentimes in the extreme levels, they usually don't seek therapy. These are not people that you see, you know, in their weekly psychotherapy. Um, they usually have to really be falling apart and hitting bottom in some pretty significant ways to seek outside help. Um, their world is usually crashing into a million pieces.
SPEAKER_00Is there a level of charisma that I would imagine that malignant narcissists have, right? I feel like there's a level of charisma that makes people around them love them or admire them or maybe not necessarily notice just how narcissistic they are.
SPEAKER_03Definitely, because the name of the game is domination and power, right? These are like cult leaders, these are like people that need to be seen at such a core level that they do tend to be incredibly charismatic, incredibly like over the top funny, over-the-top center of attention. They do tend to draw people in, especially empaths, people that are more like sensitive and really are feeling like, wow, this person is amazing, you know, and because of their traumas, they tend to often be prey for the malignant narcissist. That makes a lot of sense. They usually go together.
SPEAKER_02So are narcissists like if someone had to go to them and say, you know, call them out on their shit, are they the victim? I wouldn't because uh they'll outrun you. Okay, so just don't ever approach stay away from a narcissist. It's the is the store, is the bottom line.
SPEAKER_03I mean, if you can, you know, don't take the bait, you know. Uh when you the last thing you want to do if somebody is in fact a narcissist is to try and call them on it because they will wear you down in ways that are unimaginable than for the long haul.
SPEAKER_02So for our viewers, like let's say you have a person in your life that you feel is unhealthy or you feel is a narcissist, what are some very obvious traits that you could identify that, you know, maybe you're you're onto something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Sorry, I just want to also jump in here because there are so many different types of narcissism, I feel, and it is so frequently used that maybe it's easier that we don't identify the type of narcissist for our viewers and we just talk about traits. You mean traits or tactics? Because there's both. I guess both. I guess both. So that, you know, because let's say you have someone that has a total victimization attitude, you know, and that is a very strong component of who they are, and it does make them a narcissist, but you also have a different type of narcissist who is the grandiose malignant narcissist, it it comes out in a different way. So let's maybe take the titles away and talk about different traits. Like how do you identify a narcissist?
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, we and again with social media, you see it all the time. They talk about love bombing, right? So the amount of this absolute, you know, all eyes on me, where they literally, you're the most special person on the planet. I couldn't live without you. You are my person forever and ever. I mean, some narcissists even get to that point where they'll threaten, like if they're feeling unsafe, they I can't live my life without you. So there's this massive amount of intensity, which is called what we know as love bombing. That's one of their like famed tactics. Um, other forms of like actual traits for narcissists are um gaslighting, devaluation, and then finally discarding. So oftentimes what will happen is with after the love bombing, you know, there's this whole period of like gaslighting you where you, you know, the you actually start to question like your own reality. Like um they may tell you, oh, you know, you said this to me. I mean, literally, flat lie. And the person, you just get thrown off of your own balance, your axis. And so it creates this fear, you know, and threat. So back to do you ever confront the narcissist and tell them they're a narcissist? More times than not, they'll start totally gaslighting you and make you feel like you're gonna be discarded and abandoned. And then, you know, oftentimes the person starts thinking, but I love him or her, and I don't want that. So they really push on that pressure point with people that are empaths. Interesting.
SPEAKER_00Like, like you continuing to confront me and hold a mirror up to me, you're gonna lose me. Kind of this threat of I'm gonna abandon you because you're wrong and I'm the victim in this situation. Right.
SPEAKER_03Not only I'm gonna abandon you, but you're crazy. Like you can wave around the evidence to them, like, um, I'm sorry, I see that you've been texting this other person the whole time. And they literally can turn that story right around and say, oh great. So I'm in a tribunal, like you're gonna start like grilling me. And it goes sideways very quickly because then you start to think, oh, maybe I shouldn't have done that.
SPEAKER_02Oh, some like for example, if you have a friend and you say, you know, I know that you spoke badly about me, and then they say, Oh, so you're saying I'm a bad friend now. Like that's they distort your reality. So they're the victim. So someone that also makes themself a victim, right? Right.
SPEAKER_03Then they they turn into the victim and then go back at you with you're treating me badly.
SPEAKER_00Like you're the perpetrator, and now this is the new sense of reality I'm gonna give you, and I'm gonna drill it down so much that it's gonna make you question your own reality. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03That's pretty spot on.
SPEAKER_02There you go. Are you new therapists Kevin Jacobs? We've done the podcast. Mic dropped.
SPEAKER_00Legit, you are. Why do you think people are drawn to narcissists? And how do they react to boundaries? Two very different questions. Okay.
SPEAKER_03Wait, so who's reacting to the boundary? The person. The narcissist. The narcissist. So why are we attracted to them? Yeah. Well, I mean, they are so oftentimes in control of the room, like they're holding what is actually a false power because they've been like the golden child, all eyes on me. They really know how to command attention. And in our society, that has a lot of value. And to be fair, often narcissists are very successful in a capitalist society. I mean, most of the billionaires tend to be on the narcissistic spectrum, if not the fullborn.
SPEAKER_00Well, because they think that they're fantastic. There's no sense of like they might be deeply wounded, but like there's this sense of like, I'm fantastic. And you're what I've done. Yeah, really far in life with that mentality.
SPEAKER_03100% because they're so entitled. Right. And then all they have to do is get you to buy into how incredible they are and how much money they're gonna make you. And all you have to do is invest in their company, next thing you know. And by the way, they are, they win at the game of capitalism often, which is as we can even see in our current environment, you know, the people at the so-called top are all billionaires, and mostly a lot of them tend to be on the narcissistic, either full-blown thing or on the spectrum with the traits.
SPEAKER_02So setting a boundary with a narcissist is just, I mean, we did an episode on boundaries with you. Yes. So how would one at what point does one just walk away and say, you know?
SPEAKER_03Well, the number one is don't take the bait. That's the bottom line. You don't take the bait of a narcissist ever.
SPEAKER_02How do you know what the bait is? Like, how do you know you're being baited?
SPEAKER_03Because, and this is where even I think when I spoke on with you guys before, we have to trust our gut. We have to trust our gut. Because as you're starting to feel the dysregulation in your system, it's really easy for the narcissist to get you to react to them. Which at a certain point, once you do that, you're in the trap.
SPEAKER_00So, for example, how I would imagine it looks like is you're telling someone what they've done and how they've hurt you. They're changing the narrative to make themselves look like the victim. And now they're trying to make you look like the perpetrator and changing the reality. And the response might be, I trust my sense of reality. That my reality is my truth. You're not gonna convince me otherwise. Maybe that's an example of yeah, no matter what you say, you're not gonna infiltrate my reality.
SPEAKER_03It's true. And and beyond that, what the gray rock, I'm sure you know what that is, or maybe not. If not, you know, gray rocking, which think of a gray rock. I mean, could you find anything more neutral? You know, just having a very measured, like, okay, kind of response, like I hear ya, you know, they're in you want them to be dysregulated, not you. You need them to be the one that's off their game, not you. Because as soon as you get sucked into the discussion, it'll never be ending and it's always dominating.
SPEAKER_00So it's either you're like maintaining your sense of reality or gay gray rocking them, kind of not giving them anything to pick up, right? So just saying drop the ball. Yeah, saying things like, oh, okay, oh, that's interesting. Right, we're we're great, we're doing well, and just not giving them anything to pick up or no contact. But is there any other kind of boundary that works with indifference? Yeah, like agree to disagree. Like you just don't give a shit.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you're just indifferent.
SPEAKER_00You just don't care.
SPEAKER_03No, whatever they say, whatever like next, like go for it because they get to be the quote kind of crazy person and unraveling what the narcissist feeds on is our dysregulated nervous systems. When I'm dysregulated, I'm prey. I've lost the game. And the other part of it is they will take it all the way to the end. They won't stop. They will not and take you with them.
SPEAKER_00What does a narcissistic parent look like?
SPEAKER_03Well, oftentimes the narcissistic parent has what we call, they depending on how many kids, they they often view their children as an extension of them. So it's all about being performative, the kid getting straight A's, them being the golden child, you know, oh, they need to even dress the way the parents think they should, otherwise they'll shame them. You know, there is just a lot based around performative uh elements. Um equally interesting is there's the a style where the children tend to be scapegoated, especially if you have siblings. There's one that's not doing the bidding for the narcissist and isn't mirroring them perfectly. And then that kid is is talked about really poorly and seen as kind of the scapegoat of the family.
SPEAKER_02I hope that's so when you say an extension of the parent, you mean like it it's like a lot of it for me, it brings up a lot of owing, like your child owes you, right?
SPEAKER_03Well, it's not just owing. It's like you are a mini-me, and you needed to get in there and do the spelling beat the way I would have.
SPEAKER_02So it put grades, college, everything aside, you need to do what I did because that's the right way.
SPEAKER_03Well, it goes beyond that because as kids mature, you know, rightfully so, you want them to be individuated, to be their own person. Whereas in narcissistic relationships where the parent is the narcissist, you have this deep, deep enmeshment where there is this like melded into one. So that even like emotionally, for example, if the child is sad, um, the mother often will say, Oh, you're making mommy sad. Right.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. Like they're they put their emotional well-being on their children.
SPEAKER_03They're emotionally regulating themselves with their children. With their child. But the child needs to mirror back precisely them. Right. That's the small or whatever they need. Exactly. And so when the child has other feelings, which is actually really healthy, they get shamed for it. And then there's a shutting down, and there's a massive amount of shame. So then you often get a mini narcissist on your hand.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. So, like, let's say it's really important to keep a family together to a parent to a narcissistic parent. Yes. And like one sibling hurts the other sibling's feelings, right? And then that sibling whose feelings were hurt expresses hurt, then maybe the narcissistic parent would say, but that is going to disrupt our family, which matters more to me. And that's what matters to me. So like you have to mirror just being okay. Exactly. Interesting.
SPEAKER_03And of course, the kid that's crying, like, might end up a drug addict because, you know, they feel alone, they feel shunned, they don't feel a part of that system. That's like the scapegoated child. Right. That ends up just because they're having a quote different feeling than the parent, or one that's seen as unacceptable or not okay, they then are literally alone and in shame.
SPEAKER_02So in the long run, it really damages the child because it it makes them lose all confidence. They feel like they can't feel the way that they want to feel because they need to feel how their parent wants them to feel. 100%.
SPEAKER_03Well. And it's it's it's like the shame, the shaming of that, and witnessing the parent, you know, only feeding the golden child like that creates, you know, pathology and aloneness. And again, this is like the total groundwork roots to create addiction where the kid just wants to numb out, act out, not be a part of all of that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_02For narcissists that are married, this is a really weird question, but I'm curious. For them to have a successful marriage, would that would their partner also be a narcissist? Um, so wait, explain. Would it be like two narcissists? Would it be like, you know, let's say here's Bob and he's a narcissist and he really wants to get married to Pam. Okay. Is Pam also a narcissist, or can they have a successful marriage with, you know, Bob being the only narcissist in the relationship? I see it all the time.
SPEAKER_03I mean, narcissists together are the power couple often. Yeah. They're marrying each other perfectly. They do it the way they both need to. And they're like so so enmeshed often.
SPEAKER_02And isn't there a power struggle between Bob and Pam?
SPEAKER_03It seems like really destructive. It seems like it's admitted. Yeah. Oh no, it is because they're like hypercritical, really intense, super judgmental, often like talking poorly almost to each other, but they come right back at it because if you've got two narcissists together, they've created a little narcissistic kingdom together and they're mirroring one another. They kind of work off of each other. It's diabolical sometimes. Really thick.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, if and if you're talking about a narcissist with a non-narcissist, I imagine you're talking about what would be maybe an abusive relationship. Often.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And then again, you know, there's a there's always the negotiation of your emotions. How much room is there for me? Is it okay for me to say this?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03Um, oh, he or she will get mad at me if I do X, Y, Z. So I'm gonna just like need to keep that to myself. Need to keep the peace.
SPEAKER_00So like a successful marriage doesn't mean a long marriage, right? So like if you're the uh victim of narcissistic abuse and you're not leaving, it's because it's not because you're in a successful long marriage, it's because you're a victim of abuse. And it's hard to leave that dynamic. You've been silenced.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And more times than not, there's usually a really intense trauma history with the person that stays in a long-term narcissistic relationship. They're really just in a reenactment often, whether they were maybe the golden child in a narcissistic relationship themselves or coming from trauma in general.
SPEAKER_00Are there two, like I know, so just going back to different types of narcissism, are certain narcissistic people more compatible with certain other narcissistic people? Do you know what I'm saying? Like the like the grandiose narcissist and the um communal narcissist. Right. I feel like they would work. They would. Oh yeah. Tell tell us why.
SPEAKER_02You have to find your narcissist.
SPEAKER_03If you're a narcissist, it depends on like are these traits, is this a full-blown thing? But often they they can really be compatible.
SPEAKER_00Right. You have like the grandiose narcissist who has to be the loudest in the room, has to be the most loved, and then you have the communal narcissist who is the do-gooder for the the optics of it. Exactly. And that really benefits one another. They serve each other a purpose. They do.
SPEAKER_03They do. And they, you know, they shine in their mind. Yeah. And and kind of sadly to me, like on a social level, and because I work so much like with trauma and with families, where you're like, okay, you went to Harvard, you went to Stanford, you guys are perfect. Why is your kid just a complete drug addict that can't leave his room? You know, and it's often because they're in la la land, you know, that's the narcissist that is living this pseudo-life of pretend mode. And this this child is so unseen and often not able to do the bidding.
SPEAKER_02So the abandonment piece that you were talking about. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00But let's say a kid grows up and they're seemingly fine. And so a narcissist would use that in its arsenal, their arsenal to be like, well, no, like my kid grew up fine. You know what I'm saying? Like how my narcissists are not. Yeah, they're an already done nothing wrong. They look at that and they're successful. How does it how do the effects show where they're not obvious?
SPEAKER_03Well, it's crazy, right? Because so often when I get the person in front of me, depending it's off it could be any version of this, the person will share with me, I had an incredible childhood. Like everything was fine. Like my parents were great. I'm like, um, okay, you're smoking fentanyl. I'm sorry. Like this doesn't like what happened, right? And it's not them because they are again kind of almost victimized by the parental relationship. And so what ends up happening is there's this like profound protective instinct for them to not share this part because it's so much about the performative elements that make you're not allowed to crack it.
SPEAKER_00Right. So like maybe you are successful and you're you're doing well in business, but like deep down you feel like these extreme feelings of shame or you know, inability to connect to your partner or whatever, and that's all the trauma that you don't want to show to the world.
SPEAKER_03And that is people build their entire lives doing that. Wow. And it's oftentimes only when everything crashes that they have to look at it. I mean, and then it's also really interesting in the parental dynamic because let's just say it might be an adult child that's seeking help. And then that child, or if it's adult child, for example, becomes this pathologized, stigmatized, identified patient. So then they become the reason that their families all fucked up, excuse my language, but you know what I mean? And they end up having to be this very pathologized, stigmatized human. And it's it's really hard to get under that. I'm so sad.
SPEAKER_00How do you tell someone that you're creating boundaries with them when they are a narcissist and you've exhausted every other option? Do you think that it's necessary to say something?
SPEAKER_02Or is it that implied boundary that you talk to us about on that on our boundary episode?
SPEAKER_03Right. Um, I would avoid it. Because so interesting. To be explicit and setting a boundary, you're gonna be gaslit, you know, you're gonna get potentially just so much blowback and it's so exhausting that it's really, really hard to do. I think back to like the actual boundary is checking your gut and being like, this feels really unsafe to me and I am not okay right now. I need to either a walk away right now, I need to fully gray rock and see if that works. Like you need to pull out all the stops, but it's all internal. Because as soon as you start to make that explicit, then you're potentially subject to a ton of gas being gaslit or being in a fight.
SPEAKER_00Or being sucked back in easily. But what if it's not to get their response? Like you've made it resolute in your mind, I don't care what their response is. This is just me needing to communicate this for myself so that I know I have been clear.
SPEAKER_03I mean, fair, you can do that, but you're not gonna get the response.
SPEAKER_00And right. You're gonna get an attack. And so if you're okay with that and that's not the purpose of it, then it's fine, you'd say.
SPEAKER_03Right, but it's like you're back in the ring again. It's like you want to leave the casino before you've like lost everything. Um, because you know, you're you'll go in for like 15 more rounds, um, which is why we have to really protect our nervous systems when you're around somebody like that.
SPEAKER_02So basically, sometimes closure isn't the answer for this. Well, what is closure though? I mean, maybe sometimes someone would want to let someone know, listen, this is how this is what my my boundary is. And they know going in, it's not gonna be respected. They know going in, you're going to get gaslit or sucked back in or shamed or whatever it is. Yeah. But they want to do it because they want closure. Right. But maybe that's not, maybe you need to have peace within yourself and forget about the closure because going back in is going to do more harm than even get you that closure that you need. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03It's 100%. But it's funny, right? Being a therapist, as long as I have. I always tell people, I'm like, you do not always get to have closure. Sorry. That's like kind of a fake term.
SPEAKER_00Closure. Yeah. I yeah. You make closure within yourself. You're you're never gonna get it from somebody else. You you're never gonna get what you want from someone else. It's you're putting an expectation on somebody else to fulfill some sort of need within yourself.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because the person that you want closure from is not gonna say, Oh, I understand.
SPEAKER_03I get it. Yeah, no. And then you both are gonna leave in peace because you want closure. Like, yeah, you know, but like when you're dealing with somebody who has this type of disorder, um, that's a fantasy that you may have that there's some peaceful solution, which is in itself just morbate to get you back in there.
SPEAKER_00So, like a big step is just accepting the reality of who this person is. And that can be really hard.
SPEAKER_03It's well, it's devastating.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And particularly because narcissists are so incredibly charming.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And, you know, like if say you're dating a narcissist, you've had the most amazing magical dates ever. You've had just the most incredible times. Um, let's forget the fact that he didn't go to your graduation or meet your, you know, people that just promoted you at the party or in met your friends. You know, there's this idea that you really want to believe that this person is going to show up for you. And so it is, it creates a massive amount of internal confusion when you're involved with a narcissist for all of those reasons.
SPEAKER_02So, how do you cope with, you know, a narcissist in your life? Or do you just, would you just say walk away?
SPEAKER_03Well, it depends on the degrees, right? And to what extent you need to engage with this person. Like, who are they in your life? Like what, like if you're married and you have like three kids, you know, it it's a little more complicated. Um, you know, I think you really have to turn inward and ask yourself those deeper questions, which is I know he's gonna go to that party and be highly obnoxious and he's gonna disregard me the entire time and flirt with my best friend. You know, you have to be okay with that. Because that that's just what you're actually dealing with. Or just mean biting comments, things like that.
SPEAKER_00So when it becomes detrimental to you, when it becomes detrimental to your nervous system, do you think that's a point in which you walk away? Yes. What does that look like? It being detrimental to your nervous system. What does it do to the nervous system?
SPEAKER_03Well, name it. You've got panic attacks, insomnia, um, out like crying jags, like all of your friends are telling you if you tell me that story one more time, like if you keep talking to me about this guy, I I'm not listening. Um, you know, everybody's pretty much fed up with it. And there's so much aloneness with it. And there is often like just a feeling of complete despair. At which point, this is what I was gonna talk about earlier, is there's so much grief that comes with it because you really bought into the fantasy that you had this amazing human.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That makes sense. That's really sad. That's really, really sad. It is really sad.
SPEAKER_03But, you know, oftentimes it's so sad that the person will seek therapy, in which case they come out of what I think of as almost like coming out of a cult type dynamic, where they're like, oh, there's a me that exists outside of this story I've been telling myself or sold that I bought into. Oh, I actually have a self. And they actually start doing the work, in which case it's incredibly healing and exciting. But on the way there, uh it's very devastating.
SPEAKER_02You can lose your sense of self when you're in a relationship with a narcissist very easily.
SPEAKER_03Not even can more times than not, you do. You will, or you'll sacrifice it. It's like you bring it to the altar all the time, every day.
SPEAKER_00You never really knew your sense of self because you've only grown up losing your sense of self, right? You never even got to develop. It's very damaging.
SPEAKER_03Well, you're performative.
SPEAKER_00Right. So you never even got to develop, develop your sense of self. Well, yeah. Which I imagine is so disorienting when you finally break that versus being in a relationship, having a sense of self, losing it, having to regain it back, being in a familial dynamic when you never even got to build it, and then you're like, oh my gosh, I don't, I actually don't know who I am.
SPEAKER_03You know, it's really interesting. I've literally talked to people that have grown up with narcissistic parents or narcissistic dynamic. One of my favorite questions is I'll ask them what their favorite color is. And they literally will not know. Really? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, maybe there I think that there's an element of indecisiveness because you you didn't get to decide.
SPEAKER_02Someone made all the decisions for you.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. And they don't know. But like Wow, that's crazy. What what is it that's really important to you right now? They will go into panic, um, not know. And there's this, it creates also this really deep dependency on other, you know, which is also they are prey potentially for getting into a narcissistic relationship themselves. Because that particular kid, often the golden child in a narcissistic dynamic, if they don't become a narcissist themselves, they end up just losing their sense of who they are from the beginning. That's so sad. Yeah, it's it's it's uh really, really toxic, which is why, you know, this topic of narcissism, and we could see it so much in our culture and even on social media, um, it's everywhere. Do you think it's overused though? I do. Yeah. I mean, I do. I mean, when somebody's like really successful, really proud of their accomplishments, feeling really good and caught and self-aware and all that, you know, that sometimes is mistaken as somebody, oh, you're narcissistic.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, and it's it's not the case all the time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I imagine that can really diminish someone's accomplishments. So in those scenarios, it should be, I mean, in all scenarios, but in those scenarios, it should be used carefully, more sparingly, because you also don't want to stifle someone from sharing their accomplishments or being proud of themselves, or you know, that that's really important to instill in children too. No question. No question.
SPEAKER_03So I think it's, you know, like sometimes when somebody is accomplishing a lot and feeling really confident about it and winning maybe for the first time, and they have like this very exaggerated, you know, expression of look at me over here, um, can be mistaken. And again, back to your point, is it being overused? Yes. Um, is it everywhere? Yeah, that too. So, you know, you have to be able to be discerning about that.
SPEAKER_02So I think the key points here are you can't change someone's personality. So you can just control how you react and your boundaries. And you have to trust your gut and set those boundaries or walk away if you're dealing with someone that is this disruptive to your nervous system or to your life. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03And also, you know, because often with narcissism, you're kind of being held captive by them and you feel like you're almost like they're publicists, like you have to kind of sell them to everybody because, you know, you you're sort of like helping them, like people not see them as bad or whatever, you know, as this negative, obnoxious person. And so once you give that role up, it gives you an opportunity to turn in more than ways that you haven't been able to.
SPEAKER_00So like radical acceptance, right? Like it's radical acceptance of who this person is because that person has been, you know, tasked with maintaining the emotional regulation and state of the narcissist. So they they have to maintain this image for them to everybody else. But the minute that they're like, oh, I don't have to do this, and I can accept who this person is. Exactly. And I have control, and I have control over it. Yeah. Of of whether or not this person's in my life, and it's just this radical acceptance, and it's really hard to get there.
SPEAKER_03But it is because often with the radical acceptance comes tremendous grief. Right. Correct.
SPEAKER_00Because you have to like let go of the version of this person that you thought they were a fantasy, or like a connection that feels unnatural to let go of, you know, like if if it's a family thing or a spouse, it just feels so unnatural to you because it isn't easy.
SPEAKER_03It is not. And I mean, it sounds like really kind of cool to be radically accepting, but at the end of the day, what you're actually doing is you're giving up on the relationship by having to just accept the person as they are, yeah, which is easier said than done. Yeah. Especially if you're invested or you put a lot of time and energy into it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, we didn't we don't have our would you rathers, but I do have one. So I guess we could go into that. I have one would you rather question in my head. This is gonna be a tough one. Okay, so Bernie, I have one would you rather question for you. Would you rather be the child of narcissistic parents or be married to a narcissist? Oh. Ooh.
SPEAKER_03I think I'd rather be married to one. Because the problem is, if you're a child, it's the ocean you swim in, and then you have all this developmental like damage that goes with having a narcissistic parent. So less damage. Yeah. And harder to navigate as an adult and growing into being an adult and in having a parent, it's really, really challenging versus like you wake up and you're like, I am with a narcissist and I need to get out.
SPEAKER_00It's would you rather be the child of a narcissist or married to someone who's the child of a narcissist? Neither are good.
SPEAKER_03Um but on that same note, I'd rather be married to the child of a narcissist. Because, see, here's the bottom line: you want your childhood to have been decent and stable, right? Because once you have child narcissistic abuse or trauma, then you're gonna have a way harder time dealing with it because you've then got what we call complex PTSD, which is developmental trauma and makes it way harder to get out of. Yeah. So you're way better to do it as an adult than in than as a child. You kind of are screwed when you're the child.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Well, that was a loaded episode. We I think our viewers are gonna enjoy that one.
SPEAKER_00I'm so happy you. Thank you, Bernie. Yeah, thanks so much for coming back. We love having you on. Yeah, our favorite. We love you, Bernie. We love you guys. We'll see you next week next week.