Loyalty in Friendships: Blind Defense vs. Having Their Best Interest at Heart

Welcome back to Boundaries & Banter — the podcast where sisters-in-law Taryn & Michela get real about relationships, boundaries, and the messy stuff no one talks about.
In this raw, no-holds-barred episode, Taryn and Michela unpack what loyalty actually means in friendships (and family). They break down the difference between true loyalty (having someone’s best interest at heart) and blind loyalty (groupthink, defending bad behavior, queen-bee dynamics, and fear of being ousted). They share personal stories from their teenage years, the wild backlash from their very first podcast episode, mob mentality, politics with lifelong friends, and why loyalty looks different with your kids or spouse.
If you’ve ever stayed silent to keep the peace, defended a friend you didn’t agree with, or wondered when it’s time to distance yourself—this conversation will hit hard and give you language (and permission) to protect your peace without guilt.

00:00 Welcome to Boundaries & Banter
01:20 Defining Loyalty – What It Means to Us
04:45 Teenage Loyalty: Queen Bees, Groupthink & Fear of Being Ousted
09:10 The Sneak-Out Story – Loyalty or Self-Betrayal?
13:40 Adult Loyalty: The Podcast Backlash Example
18:50 Loyalty vs. Bullying – When “Having Your Back” Goes Wrong
23:10 Groupthink, Mob Mentality & History Repeating
27:40 Loyalty to Family & Kids – The Non-Negotiables
31:50 Costs of Blind Loyalty & When to Distance Yourself
35:10 Would You Rather: Loyalty Edition

Drop your biggest takeaway in the comments: Have you ever had to choose between loyalty to a friend and loyalty to yourself?
Subscribe for more real-talk on boundaries, friendships, and mental health. Follow us on Instagram @boundariesandbanter for clips and community.

#LoyaltyInFriendships #BoundariesAndBanter #ToxicFriendships #SelfLoyalty #Groupthink #FriendshipBoundaries #MentalHealth #RealTalk

Welcome to Boundaries & Banter 🎙️
Join Taryn and Michela for raw, funny, and heartfelt conversations about mental health, relationships, and everything in between.

👇 Stay connected with us:
📸 Instagram – @boundariesandbanter

🎵 TikTok – @boundariesandbanter

▶️ YouTube Shorts & full episodes – youtube.com/@boundariesandbanter

💌 Share your story: boundariesandbanter@gmail.com

#BoundariesAndBanter #MentalHealthPodcast #Relationships #FunnyPodcast #WomensPodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back to Boundaries and Banter. We are your hosts, Taryn and Michaela. Today we're going to be talking about loyalty and what loyalty means to us. Do you want to take it from here?

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Okay, sure. Wow. I mean, I think defining loyalty is where we start. So, what does loyalty mean to you? What what does loyalty mean to a lot of other people? How does it get confused or lost in translation? Um, I think we see a lot of I think we see a lot of like blind following or always groupthink, groupthink, or defending somebody, like having a best friend and then always having to defend them, even if their behavior doesn't fall in line with like your own core values, but just for the sake of loyalty, always defending them, even if it goes against something that you intrinsically believe in.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Well, I think as we get older, we've realized that loyalty means having someone's best interest at heart, as opposed to just always agreeing with them. I think a lot of younger, I could I could say a lot of younger girls, because I know I was like this when I was younger, a teenager, middle school, high school, whatever. I think that you don't want to be ousted from the group. So you're always it's just easier to agree with what everyone else thinks, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Yeah. Yeah. And so you kind of go along with status quo. Like let's say there's a dynamic in, and you're right, it's juvenile. So let's say you're in middle school, right? And there's a group of girls, and there's kind of I mean, I think a lot of the times maybe there's a dominant person in that group, like a Queen B. The Queen B, right, yeah. And the ringleader. The ringleader. And let's say she does something that you know doesn't feel right to you as a 13 or 12-year-old. I mean, I don't think you necessarily Okay, you even have core values at that age, right? So you know you're you're taught not to lie, not to steal, you know, to have respect for people. You're still learning how deeply those things. But I think but wait, but wait. So let's say somebody, you know, does something, Queen Bee does something that goes against one of those core values. Maybe, you know, she lies and she's she steals, she did something or whatever, and the group is kind of covering it up, def or defending her, you know, justifying it, whatever it is. And to you, that kind of feels a little bit weird because you're like, hey, I don't really agree with this, and I actually don't even think it's best for this person. And I don't think me being loyal to this person is going along with it because then they'll never change, and that's not what's best for them. But because you're, you know, a kid and you don't want to lose your friends, and you think loyalty is just zipping that part up and being like, No, I'm gonna defend this behavior, a lot of that is fear-based, right? I don't want to lose the group of friends. It's not, and then you're compromising yourself and you're being disloyal to yourself. I agree with that. I think loyalty when you're a kid, and I think it becomes a lot more complicated when you're an adult. Like, like this example is a very surface level example of how it looks like when you're older. But I think a lot of the times the question of being loyal to a friend often comes to a head with like, am I being loyal to myself? Like, does being loyal to this person by what their definition of loyalty is compromise loyalty to myself and my own core beliefs?

SPEAKER_02 3:46

I do think that a lot of it is juvenile. Like we said, like you want to fit in with a group, you don't want to be excluded just because you have a different opinion. I have a story from when I was younger. So when I was in high school, a group of girls slept over at my house and they all snuck out, and I was too scared to sneak out. Okay.

unknown 4:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

I don't remember them getting mad at me, but I was too scared to sneak out. Anyways, like I fell asleep and I think it was like around 4 a.m. now, and they still weren't back. So I called and one of I called the girls. One of them had gotten really, really, really bad alcohol poisoning. Okay. So, and one of the girls' moms was like really, really, really strict too. So my mom randomly like came to just check in on us that night, and she noticed none of the girls were there. So she asked me, like, what's going on? And I said everyone snuck out, and now one of the girls has alcohol poisoning. She called all of their moms, okay, to come pick them up. And I feel like me not covering up for them, like telling was me being loyal, like having their best interests at heart, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

So I think that loyalty is having someone's best interests at heart, not really going along with what you think they want.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Wait, sorry, I don't get it, but you didn't cover up for them. I didn't, no.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

You're saying you didn't. I didn't cover up for them. That was I felt like that was being loyal to them.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

That's really um like wise beyond your years. Yeah. For you to have done your office years.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

I was also shit scared. It's not that I was shit scared of my mom. I was scared of like what could happen to these girls, you know, like what could happen to the one that was really scary.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

I see what you're saying. Okay, I thought you meant like not sneaking out.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Yeah, but like having that was having her best interest at heart. And now looking back on it, I think that being loyal to someone is having their best interests at heart.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah. No, 100%. That's a really good example. And I think that is a lot of that is very like that is a very good example of the kind of like loyalty that we see in that age range, right? That that we were talking about. Like that is like kind of the dynamic, or let's say, you know, let's say two girls, you know, one girl breaks up with her boyfriend in high school and the other girl has a crush on him. What do you do? You know, do you have the wherewithal to say, hey, I'm having these feelings and I want to be honest with you about them.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

Um I think high school is very different though. Like, I feel like in today's day and age, there's so many, like there were there were guys that I dated that one of my friends went on a date with after, and I was like, well, it didn't work out for me. Maybe it'll work out for you. As an adult. As an adult. As an adult. But I'm saying it's very different as a teenager compared to an adult.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Yeah, because you feel like everything is end-all.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Right. But I also think still as adults, some people think loyalty is always defending someone. Look at what happened to us with the first episode of our first episode of our podcast. And I think people got a little bit confused on loyalty versus bullying.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Yeah. Well, that's right. So that's and it's funny because I actually feel as though that is super juvenile. Yes. And it's rare to see that in adulthood, you know. I that's why I think it came as such a shock to us because if someone, let's say somebody disagreed with something we said, or whatever it was, you know, there was disagreement. Okay. The proper response would have been, you know, they don't want to be friends with us or have relationships with us anymore. You know, that's totally their prerogative. They could, you know, have said to whoever felt hurt by this or whatever it was, hey, I don't think I'm gonna have a relationship with these people anymore. And, you know, I'm here for you if you need me. Right. Right. But going online and attacking.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Attacking us, yeah. And this is, by the way, people in their 50s.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Right. So going on, it's crazy. Going online and attacking us and, you know, threatening us, doing writing a lot of horrible things, you know, bringing up really personal things in our own lives as a, you know, uh, as a way to harm us. Yeah. We're really intentionally trying to be hurtful, whereas like we had the intention between behind whatever we did was never no, I think they were very confused. Very good intentions. Yeah. Um, but and like just a lot of assumptions, this and that. Going online and attacking someone and then saying, oh, that's me being loyal. That's not loyalty to a person that you know we think you may have heard. That's not loyalty. That is straight up bullying. And I don't know if it's I don't know if it's like a lack of common sense or what it is.

SPEAKER_02 9:08

I think it's a lack of common sense and then also just not understanding what loyalty means.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Yeah. Like maybe everyone was taught that loyalty just means loyalty means hey, if someone does something that you disagree with, you're allowed to attack them. Yeah. I think that's what you're allowed to because they did it and they put it on the whatever you want now. It's free reign.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

That's not what loyalty means.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

It's actually kind of sick.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

It's very, very sick. It's very sick. That's not what loyalty means. No. Loyalty means having someone's best interest at heart and maybe having a certain person's best interest at heart would mean, okay, we no longer want to engage with the two of you, but that does not mean attacking us by any means. But that happens in other situations too. Like think about even something as simple as when October 7th happened, and you have a whole group of people that were saying horrible things about Israel, and they had no idea what they were even saying. Think about all the people that went to go interview college students on campuses and said, Do you know from which river to which sea? And these people had no idea. So they were just going along with whatever they thought so that they could be loyal to a certain group when really they But that's that's the fear of being the fear of being correct.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Right.

unknown 10:30

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

The fear of not being in the group. In the group. The the fear of not being in what's, you know, the dominant voice. And it's really actually scary. Well, people need to learn to think for themselves. I mean, honestly, what do you think about the most terrifying part about that is history repeats itself. When you think about Nazi Germany, I mean, that's what it was. Yeah. People were afraid. People were afraid that if they went uh against the the Reich, if they if they went against the Nazi regime, if they went against Hitler, whatever it was, either they were, you know, Nazis and they were per, you know, fell into the just manipulation and whatever of whatever Hitler was, you know, right teaching, or they were afraid, you know, of not being in. So, you know, it's sort of that like mob mentality. It is a mob mentality. So but a mob mentality becomes uh uh maybe the biggest danger. It's a very big danger.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Think about radical Islam. Well, what's going on right now with how many people the anti-Semitism is on the rise?

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Well, the scariest part is this is the last generation of Holocaust survivors, and then it's our responsibility to make sure that this story never dies because of how prominent um Holocaust deniers are. It's actually terrifying. It's really sounding scary. So now it's reaching all the youth, and people are, you know, kids are growing up saying, Well, this never happened. Well, especially could have happened. Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

And especially there's certain celebrities that are so anti-Semitic that say that wear the red pin or whatever it is, that bullshit. And then all the the younger generation is like, Well, we want to do what that celebrity does.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Groupthink.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Right, right. Being loyalty goes being loyal to a cause for the sake of being in the in crowd, but what they're really doing is putting entire groups of entire national and uh groups of you know, ethnic and religious groups at total risk. Right. Which we're already at risk. We're already at risk for expulsion. There's like 14 million Jews in the world. In the world.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Okay, let's get back to let's talk about the pressure. Well, the pressure, but also what it actually means to be loyal. Okay. So when you're a teenager, because I think that this, you know, but it's the same thing when you're an adult, because you also don't want to be ousted from the group. You also don't want to be excluded from like your mom group or your friend group.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

I think for when you're an adult, it's more like, will I lose this lifelong friend? Will I lose this best friend or like whatever it is, right? Because you have less group friendships and it's more you have these individual, really close friendships. And so when you're an adult, the scarier part is is I am I gonna lose this close friendship that I've maintained this entire time.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Yeah, because we now have a different view on something. When I think it's it's totally okay if you look, as long as it's not harming your, it's not dangerous to you or to your family or to your loved ones, something that you disagree on, like maybe you agree with with sleepovers, I don't agree with sleepovers. That's okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Yeah, even politics. Right, politics. I have a best friend from childhood, and we have never agreed politically. I mean, there are certain things we agree on, but we have always been able to speak about it and have differing opinions and have mutual respect for one another. And like I would never support Hillary Clinton. She campaigned for Hillary Clinton. I really only wish her the best. Like, I hope she did really well in her campaign. I hope that she like influenced people to vote for Hillary Clinton. Not because I want people to vote for Hillary Clinton, because I want her to succeed in life. Does that make sense? Yeah. So like I support her, even though because that's me being loyal to her as a friend, even though I don't necessarily agree with the the view.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

But okay, you have a good mindset of it. Like you have a good, you're able to do that. I know so many people, adults specifically, when it comes to politics, that would say, if you don't support the person I support, like we can't be friends. We can't. It's very small-minded. Very, very small minded when it's okay to have differing opinions.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

But so in that case, I think people are thinking that they're being really loyal to themselves. And they don't want to compromise that that's a thing. People get this so twisted, right? They think, oh, I'm being really loyal to myself. I'm not gonna compromise the loyalty to myself, my belief by being friends with this person who disagrees with that belief. Like that's not being loyal to yourself. That's you literally shutting people out so that you don't hear competing thoughts or ideas because it's too threatening to you. Yeah. That's what that is. Versus, you know, this person, let's say this per this, you know, Samantha and Robin are two of my friends, you know, and Samantha uh spreads a lot of nasty rumors about Robin, right? That really goes against what you believe. What my core values are and what I believe. And, you know, I confront Samantha and I say, Hey, I really don't like that you did that. And she kind of says tough shit. Then I'm like, okay, I think I'm gonna distance myself a little from you right now, even though it didn't happen to me and I'm not Robin, I don't really love the idea of being best friends with somebody that could do that to somebody. It's very hurtful. So, you know, I respectfully I'm just gonna distance myself a little bit. That's being loyal to yourself. That's also being loyal to your friend. That's also being loyal to your friend Robin, and it's being loyal to yourself.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

I think that if I was in that situation with Samantha and Robin, and Samantha's talking badly about Robin, and I'm like the third friend in the situation. I also think loyalty would be to say, hey, it's not okay to do what you did.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Well, right. So that's in the scenario, it's like if I say, right, you're not just gonna distance yourself and not say anything.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

But also not also not stay neutral, not be like, okay, well, I'm I'm staying out of this.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

It didn't happen to me, right? You know, it's like, okay, that it's one thing if two friends disagree and there's just, you know, a conflict, both people are hurt, whatever. It's another thing when somebody actually intentionally does something that's harmful, right? So in the first scenario, let's say Samantha and Robin, Robin does something Samantha doesn't agree with, you know, what Robin did wasn't necessarily harmful to Samantha. It's just something that Samantha didn't generally agree with. Right. So you can stay neutral. So you can stay neutral, right? Like, okay, they have to figure it out amongst themselves. Samantha can still support her friend Robin, even if she disagrees with it, you know, she can say, hey, this doesn't really fall in line with my views, but like I really wish you well. And, you know, Robin can say, okay, well, you know, I I understand that this doesn't fall in line with your views, but I'm really happy that you can still support me during it, right? And then they have to figure it out amongst themselves and me being the third person, I can be neutral. They have to figure it out. Versus Samantha goes and talks smack and does like a lot of horrible things. Okay, I don't think that I should stay neutral there because somebody did something intentionally harmful, or somebody did something really harmful and they may not realize how harmful it is and they should know.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

But I also think it's really important to you don't need to fight someone else's fight.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

No.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

And I think a lot of the time people think loyalty is taking on someone else's fight, fighting it as your own.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Well, that's exactly what happened with us on the first episode. Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

That's exactly what happened. It wasn't so much. So that happens all the time. That happens all the time, not just with us. You know, like we've experienced that it was really shitty. We experienced it in like we experienced it big time. It's a very severe magnify. Yeah, it was it was bad. But that happens a lot. And I think people should know that loyalty does not mean taking on someone else's fight. Loyalty means having someone's best interests at heart.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Right. Loyalty means you don't need to take someone else's fight on someone else's fight. But if that's something that really fundamentally is not aligned with your core values, you can choose to separate yourself on your own accord. That doesn't mean you're doing it to take on somebody else's fight. Right. Right. It's because it's like I don't like that for my like myself, you know. If they can do that to that person, they can do that to me. It shouldn't just be, you know, oh well, it didn't happen to me. This was a really mean thing this person did, but because it wasn't to me, it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

I think that falls into the pressure and being pressured to choose me over that person as well. Yeah, what do you mean? Like, why are you still talking to them? Why are you still being friends with them? Look at what they did to me. That happens a lot, I think, when there's just, you know, an argument between two friends. Like, you know, like there's an argument between Samantha and Robin, and you're that third friend, and Samantha might be mad at you that you're still talking to Robin, even though what Robin did wasn't a harmful thing.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

They just scenario. Yeah, the first scenario, exactly agreement.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

And then Robin might be so angry at you.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

I think that's a really juvenile version. That's what you see in high schools and middle schools. You do, but that's because there's a lack of emotional maturity. And I think in the second scenario, right? Like, let's say somebody in this scenario where Samantha does something really horrible to Robin, and Robin says to me, I'm confused why you're still friends with this person because what they did to me was really harmful. That's a little bit more understandable. But at the same time, if I were to do that, then I would hope someone like Robin, right? In my mind, it's like I would hope someone that's Robin in this situation would just say to themselves, you know, I don't think Taryn has my back 100%. So maybe I need to reevaluate that friendship. And it doesn't need to be a whole fight, but it's just, hey, are you gonna invest so much in me if I can't really stand up for you when I can see that something really wrong has happened and it doesn't even go against my values. I'm just so scared of conflict that I won't.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Yeah, I think people need to remember at the end of the day, like as we've said multiple times, that loyalty is about having someone's best interest at heart. And it could be the most simple thing, it could be a dramatic thing, but it's about having your friend and your loved one's best interest at heart. Now I think that loyalty changes a little bit when it comes to your own children or family members. Well, I think just your children or your husband. Yeah. Family members, your husband, your children. I don't think you yeah, and like your parents. Yeah, your parents too. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Like your immediate family, right? Your siblings, your parents, or whatever. Yeah, exactly. So if someone But that still doesn't mean go and attack somebody.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

No, but if someone does something horrible to my children, I don't want anything to do with them.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Right. And let's just be clear horrible to your children isn't having you know constructive criticism or like a normal dialogue about your children.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

It's horrible to your children is saying nasty things that you can't take back, threatening them, and then you still not having your children's back.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Yeah. So that's like a level of No, there is no world in which if somebody says one horrible thing about me, they're cut off by my parents. My parents too. Well, that's the normal response for children.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

But I I can tell I know, you know, you're I have children, so I know the the feeling of wanting to be loyal. It's actually very natural. It's not like, oh, I want to be loyal to my children. It comes naturally.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

You know, there's no world in which someone does something to my children and I sit by and watch it. Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

No, and I mean, I don't have kids, but I never, it was never a thought to me that I would have to convince my parents to put me first if somebody does something horrible to me. Like even if I had a cousin or my parent, if one of my parents' siblings did something really horrible to me or said something really horrible to me, it would be no question. My parents would cut them off.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

It was zero question. If even if my one of my parents' siblings, like you just said, said or did something horrible to me that was just very black and white of wrong versus right.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Like called you a bitch or something.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

Yeah, exactly. Like if one of if one of my cousins said something horrible about my husband, my parents would also be like, same, we're done. Same. You cannot speak to someone like that. Same. Who do you think you are? Same.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Totally. But that's loyalty.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

That's loyalty.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

That's loyalty. That's what you do for your children. That's what you do for your husband. That's what you do for you know your family.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

And it wouldn't be like, I can't believe you did this about that person. Like now I'm gonna go and post about you on social media and attack you and make sure that everyone knows what a horrible person you are. That's not loyalty.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Even in our this example, when someone, let's say a cousin calls you a bitch or something, which is actually horrible, it's not just like, oh, I don't really like them that much, or like, oh, you know, I don't really agree with some of their parents. Yeah, right. Even in that scenario, when someone's calling you a bitch, you still don't go online and attack them. Right. Exactly. That's not loyalty. How is that helping you? It's not like how is how is that helping you, right? You know, someone's called you a bitch and now someone else goes to your defense online to attack the other person. How do you do you feel? And by the way, if you feel if that's what makes you feel better, that's really sick of you. Do you get what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 24:59

For me in that situation, well, we're but hold on. Yes, yes, I completely understand what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

If I wanted somebody to go online and attack another person in defense of me, like and compromise even if you were the one that was wrong.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Yes. Like, and wronged, they mean the one that was being called a bitch. A bitch. Right. Okay, because that's what wronged means in scenario. I to for me to want a person to go online and attack other people, or for me to condone it or sit by it and watch while it happens or whatever, is like really against my fundamental values.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

It's also just very sad and it does lack emotional maturity. Yeah. So, you know, I think people just have a lot of growing up to do.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

There's also a cost to blind loyalty, right? So let's say I let's keep it with Samantha and Robin because now we've established these characters, and I guess me the third person. So let's say, you know, I'm blindly loyal to Samantha after she tucks shit on Robin because Samantha's queen bee, and I don't want to fall out of the group, whatever it is. I'm blindly loyal. So I then compromise my relationship with Robin. Robin doesn't want to be friends with me anymore, okay? Understandably so. Understandably so. And let's say Robin and Samantha make up. Where does that leave me? This happens a lot. I'm not gonna be friends with Robin anymore. And Robin doesn't want to be friends with you anymore. She shouldn't want to. Yeah. You know, and so and then I lose my credibility, I lose my honestly self-worth because I've compromised my own self and loyalty to my own values, and I've lost a friend, and I've maintained the friend that would do something harmful, and I've probably ruined my reputation. So there's a cost to it. You know, people think that if they're blindly loyal, they're safe, they're safe in the friend group, they're safe, whatever, they're there, it's less conflict, whatever. But at the same time, there is a other, there's a flip side where there are real consequences to it.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

No, people don't separate you from the behavior that you defend. What do you mean? So if you like, if I consist if you are backing up it's it's Samantha that was the shit talker, she was the aggressor. Okay. So if you if there's more friends in the group, you know, or let's just say Robin in this example, if you're constantly like defending Samantha, even though what she did was really horrible, like now Robin is not separating you from the behavior that Samantha did because like you're obviously standing by it, which means you agree with it.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

So you're not being separated from the so you're kind of the aggressor yourself, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Right. What makes you even if you wouldn't have done this, this the same behavior as Samantha, the fact that you defended Samantha, you stood by it.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Well, this, and it's so funny because this translates back to what we were talking about when we see anti-Semitism on campus, right? A lot of people, or I I mean, I I I hate that I'm referring to Nazi Germany, but whatever. Think about the think about people in Nazi Germany or people anti-Semitism on campus. People are just sitting around and not doing anything. You know, and they're like, oh, well, I didn't, I wasn't the aggressor, I wasn't the one that did this thing. Okay, but you're not any but you didn't speak out against it.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Yeah, there's there's guilty by association, there's you know, um I think there's that like I don't know if this is right, like it's compl you're complicit, but that bystander effect, like you think someone else is gonna handle it, so you just stay silent when you should just do what feels I think a lot of this is trusting your gut. Like you have to go, like, does this align with what I believe, what what I believe in? And if it does, like great, you do you. But if you really don't agree with this and you care about what you think is right, then you need to trust your gut and do that.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

And a lot of the times things might feel really scary, but you're gonna feel really proud of yourself. When I think about my actions, I think about, you know, one day when, God willing, I do have children. What are what will I want to show my children? What do I want to emulate for my children? What do I want them to see me do? Right. And also, what would the highest version of myself do? Because the highest version of myself isn't going online to bully people. Or bully people at all. Or bully people at all. Or stand by while people are getting bullied. The highest version of myself is not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

And you want to teach your children. Yeah, you want to teach your children loyalty. I always want to teach my children right versus wrong. My husband and I both do. Like we've we are very aligned on that. And I think that that's really, really, really important.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

I think loyalty, healthy loyalty is looks like if your friend is doing something that maybe you don't agree with or you don't like, or it's not necessarily something that's that they're doing that's intentionally harmful, or they're just they're just doing something that maybe you don't agree with. If you feel like you want to share that opinion, or they ask for it, or whatever it is, and you want to share it, okay, you can share it. But then if your friend is like, hey, I know you might disagree with this, but is there a way that you can find to support me in a way that feels good for both of us, you know? Where, you know, and you know, maybe I don't feel judged, or I don't, you know, where you can still wish me well, where I can still feel like I can talk to you about it, and it doesn't feel like this shut off thing. Um that's really healthy, you know? And then also understanding, like, hey, I understand that you don't agree with this, and it's okay that you don't agree with it. I'm not asking for you to agree with me or everything I do, but let's find a way that I don't feel like I need to shut off this part of myself.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

And just to be clear, this is when it's it's something that doesn't harm you right. Right, right, right. Yeah, no, just for our viewers to know that.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

So I also think it's like if you see something that is harmful, you have a duty to like your friend, you know, if you if you see something that's harmful, like somebody's talking smack about another friend, or somebody's spreading rumors, or somebody's starting to date somebody that, you know, so to speak, might be a bad partner, a bad partner or toxic or whatever it is, you know, obviously that it becomes a little iffy as we get older because you really don't want to make comments on somebody's husband or partner or whatever it is, and it's not just about disliking them. It's like if there are really disconcerting behaviors that maybe put your friend's well-being at risk. At risk. Um you can voice it without you can voice it.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

I think a lot of a lot of this loyalty really comes down to boundaries and holding those boundaries with yourself and with your friendships. And I think that if you can hold strong boundaries and stick to your boundaries, then you'll you won't lose your loyalty to yourself and to your the people around you.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Right. Like you're saying things that might infringe on what you your core values.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Stick to your core values. So just hold your hold your boundaries. And so when do you think it's time to distance yourself? I think when it's harmful, actually harmful to those around you. Um, I think that's when you distance yourself.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Like when somebody has a pattern of really bad behavior. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

And not harmful, I mean like someone's physically harmful. I mean harmful behavior. Like maybe they're doing a lot of drugs, or maybe they are doing something that's harmful to themselves or harmful to those around them. Yeah, but then it's like kind of hard. Yeah, it's hard, but you can also have a conversation with them and just say, listen, I see that you're going down this path. I wanted to talk to you about it. I really care about you. And that's about you being loyal to them and having their best interests at heart. But if they are not open to it, then maybe at that point you need to distance yourself.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Yeah, for your own well-being.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Um, I think when also people, you know, minimize their actions or blame others, right? If you say, like, hey, this really hurt me, and they're like, well, kind of get over it, or you know, I didn't do anything wrong, or you know, not just like, hey, you know, uh, this is why I did it. I I understand why it could have hurt, but this is why I did it. XYZ, and that's a that's a healthy dialogue. But when you're minimizing your actions or you're you have a lot of pride and you you can't seem to see the other person's side of it, or you can't come to the table, and then dialogue, you know, isn't effective, what else can you do? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

So I think the the main point of this is stay true to yourself, trust your gut, and hold your boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

Yeah. And if you have to compromise your own values to stay in a friendship, then that's not right. Then it might not be the right friendship. Right. Um, and I think also like distancing yourself, again, it doesn't look like attacking somebody. It just looks like reaching out a little bit less, taking a step back, taking a step back, you know, reducing your emotional investment.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

It also doesn't look like if you see that person out at a grocery store, like being rude and and giving a dirty look and turning the other way. It maybe is just gonna be like, hi, how are you?

SPEAKER_01 34:52

How are you? Like really wishing still.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

Yeah, yeah. As we've said before, actually, we had one of our guests said this the opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. It's indifference, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

So, anyways, would you rather? Yeah. Would you rather have to tell a friend that you really disagreed with something that they did and doing so would effectively make you lose that friend and all of the friends in that friend group? So now you have no friends, so now you have no friends or stay silent and maintain the friendships with those people, but maybe just distance yourself a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 35:41

I think that the answer is gonna be different from 15-year-old me to 35-year-old me. Maybe 15-year-old me would have stayed silent, but now 35-year-old me would not. I would rather just have no friends.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

I think it depends on what it is.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

Right. That too.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

If it's really egregious, then yes, no friends. But if it's something, again, like we were saying, where it's not necessarily harmful to a specific person, but maybe something I just like generally don't love or whatever. And you know, some things aren't worth some things aren't worth the drama. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

I think it's a case-by-case situation. Case by case study. Well, thanks for joining us, guys. We will see you next week. We'll see you next week.