Discovering Joy, A Restless Pioneer

She was impatient, restless, and by her own daughter's admission, a bit of a hot mess. But Joy Griner was also a pioneer, a woman who grew up in the hills of West Virginia in the 1930s and spent a lifetime pushing back against what the world told her she was supposed to be.

In this episode, Susan sits down with Emily Noble, a Starkville educator, to explore the life of her mother Joy, a librarian and PhD, who found her truest self only after she stopped trying to be someone else. Emily reflects on a relationship that was sometimes more silence than conversation, the funny stories and the tender moments, and what she finally got to say as well as what she wishes she'd said sooner.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

And in one of the sessions, a woman asked the question, who were you before the world told you what you were supposed to be? Okay? And that's when I heard that, I didn't think about me, I thought about her. And I thought, the world told her growing up in the 30s and as a young woman in the 40s, she was supposed to be a version of her mother. And she didn't listen very much, I guess, or she listened and pushed back.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

But first, I want to say I have really enjoyed so many conversations that I've been having with people just talking about the podcast. When I mention it to people, immediately they start talking about their mother or their relationship with their mother or their siblings. And uh I've really enjoyed those. Some of them are good stories, sweet stories, but not all of them. You know, some of them are hard stories. Because as we've talked about, not all mother-daughter relationships were perfect. And also different cultures because there's different norms and expectations of the mother-daughter relationship. Also, turned out it's not just for women. There's been a lot of men that have said that they've listened to the podcast and maybe they've shared it with their sister or they connected and understood uh some things as well. So that's been a lot of fun uh to talk to people about it. And I hope that we're building kind of a community and building connection uh with stories that people can identify with. And today, like I said, I'm excited uh to talk to Emily Noble. I think this is going to be a fun conversation. So welcome, Emily, to our podcast. Thank you. And so you have been an educator for 30 years or so. Uh you started when you were five, right? Sure. Yeah. No, no, I started midlife. Okay. And then you were a teacher and consultant for Mississippi State's writing project. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

I was an English teacher in Rankin County, and I moved to Starkville in 2004 and went to work at MSU.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

Okay, good. So English teacher. So I'm gonna have to make sure that my grammar is correct. Please don't.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Please don't.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

You know, in the South, sometimes we we have uh interesting ways of talking about people or describing people, all those phrases that we use. And uh in in talking to you a little bit about your mother, she was a mess. Was that is that true? She they might say today she was a hot mess.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

She was a hot mess. She was a hot mess. I thought about this a lot over the past few days. Uh two words that came in my mind to describe her. The first one is she was impatient, okay, and she was restless. And maybe those add up to hot mess, but she she was very much an educator, uh, a librarian, career-driven, very much so. And always felt like she was in a hurry to get to that.

SPEAKER_03 3:32

Well, yeah, there's a new country song now that's uh Can't Sit Still. Okay Laney Wilson's can't, because that might have been your mom. She can't sit still, right? She's gotta go, go, go. Her personality was different than from her own mother. Oh. Tell us a little bit about that and her her growing up in uh West Virginia.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Um, my grandmother's name was Bessie Griner, and she was an only child, and she was very much a domestic person. She sewed, she baked, she canned, she gardened. She did all of those things. Traditional grandmother didn't very traditional grandmother, and my mother didn't really have any interest in any of that. And I don't know if that was from when she was a child or as she got older, but from what I could tell from when we've talked about it, those things just never interested her at all. So I think it probably disappointed my grandmother that she didn't have those interests, and it was always a division between the two of them, you know.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

So what were her interests?

SPEAKER_00 4:41

My mother's interests. What did she like to do? That well, can we talk about the oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It it was she she she loved the arts, she loved literature, she loved um um I think it wasn't so much what she was interested in as more possibly what she wanted to have the opportunity to get to get interested in, if that sounds right.

SPEAKER_03 5:11

Staying at home and doing those domestic things was not going to take her places.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

She tried. She truly did try. I'm gonna say this now, and I think we can maybe branch out from this question. A few weeks ago, you remember I told you I went to the Southeastern Lutheran Assembly Synod, and in one of the sessions, a woman asked the question, Who were you before the world told you what you were supposed to be?

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Okay. And that's when I heard that, I didn't think about me, I thought about her. And I thought, the world told her growing up in the 30s and as a young woman in the 40s, she was supposed to be a version of her mother. And she didn't listen very much, I guess, or she listened and pushed back. Maybe that's a better way to describe it. I think she pushed back even in the midst of like the pictures that I showed you of family, knowing her as she got older, I think I realized that she was pushing back but doing what was expected. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

And I think respectfully, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

But I just don't want to do that. Absolutely, absolutely. And it wasn't really, we lived in West Virginia until 1967 when I was a sophomore in high school, and we moved to Jackson. And my father was an engineer, and for context, he grew up with two brothers, and his mother was who raised my dad and his brother. He his father was nowhere around. So the disconnect was he was doing well enough financially to where it was a one-person income. And it turned out to be as I was in those teenage years, I started to pay attention a little bit more. Before that, I was just, what are we gonna do? Where are we gonna go? What's it gonna be like? And then in high school, I started paying attention and I saw a division. I think he was like, What else do you want? I'm working, we have a nice home, you don't have to work, but you want to work, you know. So I think that that maybe gives a little bit of context.

SPEAKER_03 7:48

So you were showing me pictures of of your mom. She was a beautiful woman. Yes, she was. Thank you. A pretty girl and a beautiful woman. And so how did she meet your dad?

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Well, it was in Parkersburg, West Virginia. She had left home when she was a young woman, and this is a great lesson in irony. As a teacher, I would absolutely use this as a lesson in irony. Remember, I told you she didn't have those domestic skills, okay? She went to work in Parkersburg. First, she worked for a radio station, and she was the host, back then it was hostess, of a um homemaking show.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 8:36

And that was so far out of her wheelhouse, but it that she made it work. She made it work, she made it work. And when she told me that, I remember as a young woman, my jaw kind of dropped, and I went, so wait, you did a homemaking show? About what? You know, and she said, Well, I just read a script. I went, okay. So she enjoyed that though. She did, she did. And at this point, she had graduated high school, had not gone to college, and then she moved away, and then she left the radio show and she went to work for the Internal Revenue Service, doing what, I don't know, probably a secretary of some kind, I'm not sure. She worked back when people took shorthand and things like that. So somehow she met my dad then. I don't know if it was there at work because he certainly didn't work for the Internal Revenue Service, but they met somewhere in Parkersburg. Somebody may have, you know, introduced them to one another or something of that nature. But they met and they didn't date or court for long at all before they got married. And it was, and my brother and I asked her years later, one time we were all together at home, just the three of us, and he said, Mom, you're you and dad were so different. Why why did you get married? And this was the educator, the PhD. She said, Well, he was just so good looking.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

Which he was. Well, she's not the first woman to marry somebody just because they were good looking, I don't think, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:15

That's true. So so they met, and then they married in May of 1950, and I was born in July of 1951, and they stayed together uh for a while, a pretty good while, but not not forever. So did you have other other siblings at that time? Um my brother is four years younger than I am, so he was born in 55. I was born in 51, and he was born in 55.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

So then so they were they were married for you know, um, I want to say maybe about 30 years. Okay. And we had moved to Mississippi by then, and that's when things began to change. I think there were probably moments of of unrest prior to, but it was as I look back now as an older person, I was thinking maybe they were let's see if this works, let's see if this helps. You know.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

Your dad his response was not that different than uh a a lot of what we've seen today. What else do you want? I remember, do y'all do you remember uh Laura Schlesinger on the radio? And I remember hearing her one time, and she said, you know, men, they come home, the wife's still there, there's something to eat, there's beer in the fridge, I have a job. I am happy. The woman comes home, he's a great husband, I have great kids, we have a great life, great house. I don't know, I'm just not happy.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

And I I wonder if the word is happy, or maybe in today's language we would say fulfilled. Yeah, yeah. I'll never know the conversations they had. Probably don't want to know. I you know, you don't remember a lot of fighting or anything. Well, no, I'll tell you what happened in our household. There would be an argument, we never heard that, but then there would be days of silence, and that was not fun at all. You know, uh the silence would just be so heavy to where you thought, God, can they please make up? Please. You know. When did she go to college? Sporadically. She when we lived in um West Virginia, she went across to a little school in Marietta, Ohio, called Marietta College. And she um took some courses there. My dad also took some engineering courses. He had never been to college either. So they were doing this for a while together. And then that's when um we ended up moving in '67 here. She started taking courses in Jackson, what was at the research and development center there off of Jackson, Mississippi. Yeah, sorry. And off of Ridgewood Road. She started taking courses there through University of Mississippi. And she got her bachelor's, and then she continued and she got her master's. The thing that I remember the absolute most, and by and they were still married, they were still together. And then my father was hired by a tile company in Dallas, Texas. I know there was some discussion between the two of them. Are you gonna come out here with me? Are we gonna, you know, what's this gonna look like? And that was the beginning, the very hard beginning of of the end. And at one point she thought she would, and then I think because I remember she shared with me, I don't he said, it's too late. We I don't think we can make it. That that hurt her. I know it hurt her because she I could see that. So then they they divorced, and she just just worked on and worked on and and went to Florida State and got her PhD in library science. And she was working before that in the Jackson Metropolitan Library System, and she was a branch manager in Clinton, and she was on her way, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:42

So was she different? I mean, not right after the divorce, but later. Was she different uh not being married? Not really. That's a great question.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

But as I sit here and think about it, not so much. Um, mother was always very um restrained. Um, yeah, I didn't know what she was thinking all the time. Now she could get expressions on her face, and you'd go, oh god, we're in trouble. But and it and my brother and I would call it the tight-lipped expression, and it wasn't fun. But as far as her demeanor, she just kept moving, you know. And then when she finished her doctorate, then she moved to Hattiesburg because she was hired at USM to be part of the library science department, and she moved up to the directorship of that department and was a big part of uh the school during its accreditation.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Yeah. So that makes me so very proud of her.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

Sure, absolutely. You know, she was a big deal.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

She yeah, and and I think maybe you used the word when we were talking. This was in the 80s and 90s, and so it was almost like she was kind of a pioneer in that, you know, it it wasn't as the it wasn't the norm then, particularly to leave everything behind.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

She was paving new ground for what yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

And I remember going to Tallahassee and seeing her get the the what you know being hooded as a PhD. Um, and and it was so special, you know. Did she marry again? No, she didn't, but she had quite a relationship when she moved to Hattie's. Now it's gonna get spicy. It gets a little spicy, the spicy side of Joy Griner, which I don't think we've said her name. It's Joy Griner, but um, she took her maiden name back, so that tells you something. She was Joy Jones, and she went to her maiden name, Joy Griner. She had she lived in a condo in Hattiesburg for a little bit. Well, actually, first she lived in an apartment, and that didn't last long. Then she bought uh a condominium and then she bought a house, and I remember helping her move, and that was fun. And um, we she lived um in a lovely little neighborhood, and there was a couple that lived next door. He was a professor at uh at USM in the chemistry department, and his wife was I don't know, I never knew her. Sadly, they traveled, and his wife died while they were traveling. She had had been in poor health, I think. And so he she had been with Elizabeth and Jim for dinner and things of that nature, but then after a respectable amount of time, my mother and Jim began to see one another, and they lived right next door, and um they just started being a couple as far as they would do the things that I think you asked earlier. What did she what was she interested in? I think that was the time that she found someone to share those interests. They would go to all the theater um productions at USM and at Hattiesburg Civic Light Opera. They entertained people from the university. Um, they started going to church together, they went to a Unitarian church. They were, you know, they were never just typical. And um then they would they would, I remember on Saturday afternoons, they would sit and listen to Prairie Home Companion together. You know, they talk about books, they would watch certain shows together, and during Katrina, they were right there. I tried to get her to come home with me. Oh really? No, we're fine. So, yeah, I mean, you know, she was in Hattiesburg, they were without power and all that. Literally weathered the storm together, huh? Literally weathered it together, yeah, yeah. So she found that I remember uh Jim died a few years before my mother did, and she talked about him in such a fond, loving way, and she shared with us that he was the best relationship she had ever had. And I remember thinking, oh, well, I get it and I respect it, but that tells me everything I need to know, you know, about her relationship with my dad.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

So let's go back a little bit. What kind of mother was she as y'all were growing up?

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Well, you remember at the beginning we talked about she tried. I think she wanted to do her absolute best. We had the birthday parties, we we did things together, but at the same time, I don't remember, like I've heard uh the other podcast. I I don't we didn't cook together, we didn't do crafts together, we didn't do any of those kind of things together. I remember we'd stay up, she let me stay up and watch the Tonight Show with Steve Allen or Jack Parr. That goes that far back, okay? So um there were times like that, but um I was closer to my dad, to be honest with you. I was very close to my dad. You were a daddy's girl. I was, I was, and where we lived in the neighborhood where we lived, this is in West Virginia, um, I would wait for him to come home at the end of the day. And we would go to the grocery store together, we'd go here, there, and yawn together. And I think she just liked her time alone. She wasn't a nurturer, she was a lot of that maternal, and that doesn't mean, you know, she just wasn't. She wasn't, and I'd like to think that somewhere in there she wanted to be, but I don't think she ever found her spot, you know. Like when we came to Mississippi, she saw women who were a mess or or who were active and and this and that, and she just she just couldn't retch up the the drive to be that way. So as a child, I remember her always there. But the best part about her as a mother, whether it was when I was younger or up until she became less of herself because of Alzheimer's, she was always ready to help financially if I needed it, if I was going through a hard time. What can I do here? You know, she never hesitated. That was interesting to me. You know, maybe that's where she felt the most and that. After she had done well in her career to where she was comfortable doing that, you know.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

Well, and so she she pushed herself. I mean, she better herself, she continued kind of throughout her her life. She did. Did did she do that with with uh you and your brother? Did she push you to she wanted me to the expectations that she had?

SPEAKER_00 22:22

I don't think I met her expectations. I truly don't, um, as far as um degrees are concerned. I don't think I ever did, but I do think that when I began working here at MSU and the work I did with teachers and as the years progressed, I don't think she understood it. You know, when I would say, Well, I was in a classroom and I did a uh an observation and that led to a classroom demonstration and blah, blah, blah, and she would go, Oh, well, that's nice, you know, but I think she really wanted me to follow in her career path. And I just never had that that drive, you know. So I think she was proud of what I was doing, but I sure would have liked to have seen her go further in her education. And I didn't was she different with your brother? Oh gosh. Rocky irritated her to no end because he was Rocky when he was younger, and my dad had moved to Dallas, and Rocky was still there. He was a teenager, young, and then an early 20s, and he didn't absorb her energy like I did. And he just was like, I'm gonna go do what I do. I think he irritated her, but at the same time, she could laugh at herself and with him. My sister-in-law told a story about when Rocky was supposed to take his ACT. He'd stayed out all night, literally all night. She knew he was scheduled to take the ACT the next morning, and she didn't sleep, and she didn't rest, and she worried. And he came home and she lit into him, and he was like, I'll be fine. And he aced it. Remember, I told you when she wrote a letter to her grandfather telling him about her children. This was when I was about 12, and she said, Rocky is placid, and Emily's complicated.

SPEAKER_03 24:37

So that's what she she sent this letter to her grandfather, and my brother found it after my mother died, and when we were going through her things at her home, and we kind of got tickled over it.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

I don't think I'm complicated now, I think probably at 12. Absolutely, I was complicated.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

Can you be at 12?

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Well, I think I was preteen complicated and difficult and moody, and Rocky was like eight, and he was like, Yeah, placid.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

That's funny. Well, and just the the the mother-daughter relationship is different than the mother-son. Yeah, I mean, it just in in most most cases, the the son can get away with things that the daughter sometimes can't, or the expectations of the daughters are different. As you got older, your mother didn't like of the guys you dated or whatever. Was because she had been married for a long time, was she try trying to push some of those expectations on you?

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Absolutely. I think she saw that they were um less than, um, not in a class way, not by that, but just I could do better. I I could do better, but I didn't see that. I saw myself as this was fine, this was great. They're nice to me. That's something that I regret more than I can even express. Um, but she saw something in me that I didn't see in myself. It wasn't until it was all over that I finally realized how right she was. I think there was a certain amount of rebellion and wanting to get away. You know, some people want to get away because there's a lot of pressure. I wanted to get away from the uncomfortable feeling because it was silent a lot. My mother and I never were comfortable sitting down and having a conversation. We could, but it was kind of exhausting. Was it because your personalities were different? Very different. Yeah. And sadly, it wasn't until she was more comfortable with herself when she was in Hattiesburg, particularly, and after she had retired, she worked long past retirement that she lightened up, and I began to lighten up as well. I think the truth of the matter is, and this is hard to say, but I want to be truthful. I knew I was in a bad relationship. She knew I didn't want to admit it because I thought that would make me look wrong or maybe prove her right. There were times that I was able to let her know I I understand, you know, as she was older. But I I think when we're doing something wrong, we know we're wrong and we don't want to admit it. That's a I don't need somebody else to tell me. It's horrible, you know. So I think that was part of our rift.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

But you're so did your relationship change as she got as you both got older?

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Yes, yes, much more. And sadly, it was around things like her health. She was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, but didn't tell us about it for the longest time. And my sister-in-law was the one who was able to find more out from her and then shared that with me. My mother didn't like to take medicine, she didn't like to do any of the things that it would help her to have done, you know, but she didn't do that. She thought she could fight that. And I remember after she retired, she was asked to write something about the School of Library Science to go into the archives, and she asked me if I would help her. And that was I was so thankful for that. That was a big deal. Oh, it was wonderful. And then when remember I've told you about Jim. Okay. When he died, they had a memorial service for him at the church where they attended together. And his daughter asked if she would speak, because his daughter didn't realize that she had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. So she really put some effort and time into preparing what she wanted to say about him. And my sister-in-law was in town. One of my daughters was with us, and the caregiver for my mother went with us, and we all went together. And I remember just sitting there, just just hoping she's gonna do this. And she did a beautiful job. She she found her way. You told me a story about a Barbie. I did. So tell me, tell us that story. It's one of my favorites. This was when my youngest daughter, Marilyn, was still in the Barbie doll stage. So Marilyn was probably seven, eight years old. I lived in in Brandon, and mother lived in Hattiesburg. She lived alone, happily alone. She would work, she would go to work at USM, be there. She would maybe come home, drink a cup of coffee, have a light supper, and go back out. This was before gym. This was probably pre-Gym. Yeah. Absolutely pre-gym. So she called me, and it was landline too, no cell phones. And it was around Christmas time. And one thing I didn't share with you, she didn't do her Christmas shopping remotely early. Okay. It was like up to the wire. Okay. Hey, that's me. And and that's fine. That that's after Thanksgiving is when you start thinking about it. It's overrated. So yeah. So she but she would say, so she called me and I answered the phone, and she had the same thing that she would say, Emily, this is your mother. Yes, ma'am. How are you? What's what's going on? Well, I'm going shopping, and I don't have known it was your mother. No. She could identify herself. It was always Emily, this is your mother. So I said, okay, but I can't think of anything to get Marilyn. And one thing that was so funny, it was almost like it was Marilyn's fault that she couldn't think of what to get her. And it wasn't, but that was how it sounded. She's so hard to buy for. Yes, yes, yes. So I I said, Well, she's really been interested in, she still loves Barbie dolls. And her favorite one that she's been asking for is called Dream Date Barbie. And she said, let me write this down. And Dream Date Barbie. Are you sure that's what it is? Yes, ma'am, that's what it is. Okay. Well, I'll see what I can do. So the next day, Emily, this is your mother. Yes. Well, I tr I went shopping last night and I went to every store and asked, and I couldn't find date bait Barbie anywhere. And I remember standing there and going, wait, you ask for what? And she said, Date bait Barbie. Isn't that what you said? I went, no, no, Mother. It was dream date Barbie. And she went, Oh, well, for heaven's sakes. No wonder they looked at me so oddly. I said, that would do it. That would do it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

And you know, the people at the store were when they went home, they were like, there's a woman that came in asking for dating.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

I thought of something else, if we have a minute to uh that was funny. There was um a recipe.

SPEAKER_03 32:30

This is before Alzheimer's. Oh, good yeah. Yeah, she was an enigma.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

That was she was what I guess an enigma because here she was highly educated, very smart, very well read, but the the everyday things of life just just disrupted her. I can't think of another word right in this minute. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

So this is so funny. I have written on my paper when we when we had lunch together, yeah, Ditzy. Ditsy. So I I think you said that earlier.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

I didn't, yeah. Absolutely, did see, absolutely. Hence, when we started seeing signs of Alzheimer's, it was hard to tell. It's hard to tell. For a little bit. And but then there were other things that showed up that were definitively Alzheimer's. But the one other thing that she would do that would tickle me, and I thought about this the other day. There was this, I don't know if you remember, back in the 90s, this recipe came out. It was chicken, like breaded, not breaded, but deboned and skin chicken breast, and or really the just the tender things, you would mix, it was so bad for you. You would mix sour cream and mushroom soup, mix that together. Before you put the chicken in the bacon dish, you would put down chipped beef. Okay. Okay. And then you'd put the chicken on top of that, and you'd mix the sour cream and mushroom soup. And then if you really wanted to just do it to the nth degree, you'd put strips of bacon on top of that. Okay. This is a high protein meal. Sure. And she and she and and I I've that recipe would go to many places. Well, she loved it, and she loved it if she was entertaining. So, same phone call. Emily, this is your mother. Yes, ma'am. I am trying to get that damn recipe for that damn chicken, and I can't find it anywhere. Now, what is it I'm supposed to do with that? And I remember I I wish I would just kind of put my head down and go, oh dear God. Oh, here we go. So I'd say, okay, I had it memorized. I'd start and then she'd say, wait a minute, let me get something to write that down on. And I remember thinking, but I never said, Well, if you knew you were calling me to get the recipe, why didn't you write it? Why didn't you have something ready? But no, that wasn't her way. You know. So that that was another thing. And then that leads me to one other. Now, was this before Alzheimer's 2? Yeah. Oh gosh, yeah. Absolutely. She didn't try and was it good? Was well for the time it was. It was one of those 80s dishes that right now the thought of eating it kind of makes you right.

SPEAKER_03 35:19

We did a lot with canned mushroom soup in the evening.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Absolutely, absolutely. But then the only other cooking thing that was special was at Thanksgiving. And this was when we were still in um Jackson. We had moved to Jackson, and the way that the the kitchen was set up, it was here and then dining room, and then perpendicular to that was the living room. And there was a couch in the living room, and this was Thanksgiving morning, Thanksgiving preparations for Thanksgiving dinner. She had not really done anything Thanksgiving much to speak of, but this year she had, as my dad would say, the bounties to make a turkey. And we were all kind of like, wow, okay, this is gonna be great. And so we had an oven that sat up the built-in oven rather than the range, and she took the the turkey out of the oven and she lost her balance with it. And my father was at the end of the couch kind of taking a nap, the TV was on, and he woke up to the turkey literally sliding across the floor into the dining room, and she was screaming, and he was like, What the hell? And so that happened, and that became a Christmas vacation, except Thanksgiving. Yeah, yeah. But the thing that was so uh unfortunate is that sh she wasn't able to laugh at herself at that point, you know. We told the story later and she could could get tickled, but at that time it was devastating to her. It was like, see, I told you I can't do all this, you know.

SPEAKER_03 37:10

And she really wanted to be at that level.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

She she wanted to say I tried at least. What kind of grandmother was she? Oh, my oldest daughter, Melissa, she adored her. She uh that she was the first child and first grandchild and very close to Melissa. She did get to know Marilyn as well. I think Marilyn was more forthright in a lot of ways. Marilyn would irritate her. But they but she was she liked to take both of them like to museums, to plays. They would go to a movie together, they would do different things together. She um I Marilyn wrote something about her recently that I can share if you'd like. Um, but Missy was the one who she really was very close to in the early days when Missy was a baby. I was a young mother, my mother was more present then, and so was my father. So and her being the first grand, and we lived with her for a while when I was going through a divorce. So um there was a a closeness for sure between my mom and and Missy, and then with Marilyn, they grew to understand one another better as Marilyn got older. Was Marilyn like you? Mm. I'd like to think she's so much better. Um Marilyn, um, maybe you she would say she was complicated. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, like there was a we still laugh about this at Thanksgiving in Hattiesburg. Now, this is not my mother's fault or responsibility, but Marilyn didn't have much of an appetite for Thanksgiving food. She didn't like it. So we drove down my family, too. We drove down there from from Brandon, and my mother would go to Heavenly Ham in Hattiesburg get Thanksgiving dinner. And uh it was the typical sweet potatoes, grand bean casserole turkey or ham. And when we were leaving, Marilyn said, Mom, she was probably about 12 or so, she said, or 13, Mom, so are we gonna stop anywhere on the way home? I'm hungry. And we just my mother said, What do you mean you're hungry? And she said, Well, I didn't eat any of that food, and it just my mother was furious. It really and it hurt Marilyn's feelings, and it hurt my mother's feelings, and I just stood there like an idiot in the middle of all of it because she said, You are so selfish. And that hurt Marilyn's feelings, but they they made it past that. They made it past that.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

Marilyn is the one who has written something about her. Yes. So would you read that? I certainly will.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Uh, this was written just recently. My mother died in 2015. Um, but Marilyn and I were talking about it after I had been to Hattiesburg to refresh her gravesite with flowers. And this is, I just titled it More About Joy from Marilyn. Joy would reheat the same cup of coffee three times. She could bat her eyelashes just as perfectly as a Hollywood movie star. Her skincare was impeccable. Her vocabulary was something to envy, and her love for cats that no one else could love was in a way envious. I have so many memories of joy being taken to the university, surrounded by children's books. It gave a different meaning to left our to our own devices than what is thought of in today's world. I felt rich when I was in that room of undiscovered stories. I owe my love of literature to her. I owe my disdain for nondescript people to her as well. She left her mark, and I'm now grateful that some of it rubbed off on me. That fits her to it, T. That is really cool. Now, her disdain. It doesn't, I don't mean for it to sound like she was classist or uh elitist because she certainly was. I mean, she came from the rural hills of West Virginia. It's not like she came from Fifth Avenue or something, you know. If people talk too loudly or ate too much or too loudly. She noticed it. Oh God, did she notice it?

SPEAKER_03 41:43

Well, it's like that uh, you know, the insurance commercial now about how don't become like your parents. Yes. Where's I I forget what it is, but it's somebody that walks in and the guy wants to say something. It's like we all see it. We all see it. But my mother was that way. Somebody would we'd we'd go out to dinner and I would know when they walked in the door, I'm like, my mother is gonna say something about their hair. And I was thinking that we all see it, mother. We all see it. We don't have to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

One time when she was in the hospital in Hattiesburg, it's she'd had a stroke, very light stroke, and I drove down there and I got there, and she was in good spirits. And you know, in hospitals you see all kinds of folks, and I don't know how she was able to observe this. Maybe she had been in the ER, I don't know. But she said, Have you seen the people that are here? And I went, Well, I haven't really paid any attention, Mother. She says, Well, good Lord, it just looks like they've all just come down from the hills or something. And I just those kind of things stuck with me. And she was from the hills, she was, and I remember saying to her, So, in other words, like where you came from, right? And she went, Well, I didn't mean it that way, you know. So she just she was who she was.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

Yeah, Alzheimer's is, and we've talked about it in other podcasts, it's a horrible thing. There are also some funny things that come out. There just are. And there may not always be funny right then, but as we look back, you you were telling a story about uh uh your mom asking about where your dad was.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

Yes, this was in Hattiesburg, and she was at this point in a very nice assisted living facility. And I would drive down from here either on Friday afternoons or Saturday morning and spend the weekend. And uh so I got there Saturday morning and it was in September. Um I remember because it was hot and I walked into her apartment and it was even hotter in there. The heat was on, and she was oblivious to it. Uh she was sitting up, she had had her coffee, read the paper and she was glad to see me and I said Mother do you are it's hot in here oh I hadn't noticed and she got a lot easier back then I then I went in the bathroom where the litter box was for her cat that she took there with her and it was full it hadn't been emptied and so I went down to that's not like her no well they were supposed to take care of that okay so I went down to the station where the the nurses and the assistants were and I just asked them have you not been in to check and so we had that little conversation and I went back and I was in the bathroom on the floor cleaning the bathroom there was it was messy. She was sitting like on the bed adjacent to the bathroom and she was just musing and thinking and talking and oblivious to the smell of cat stuff and uh she said now I haven't seen your father in a while is he okay and I just was kind of in that place of cleaning and I went yes ma'am he's he's he's fine they hadn't been together in a long time no and he had died by then and I said yes ma'am he's okay and I just kept on cleaning and she said well now has he been sick and I said yeah you could say that and she said okay and then it was this flash of memory came back to her and she went oh now wait a minute didn't he marry someone else and I just sat there and I put my head down I said yes ma'am he did and she said well to hell with him then and I just sat back and I laughed it was funny then it's funny now and I remember looking at her and saying you're back yeah there were those glimpses there were those glimpses it was precious it was just who she was if you had a little more time with her what would you say to her now oh I love that question I would say how proud I am of her how sorry I was that I didn't share that with her as much as maybe she would have liked towards the end of her life we were sitting together uh this by now she had moved to Dallas so she could be my brother and his wife could help with her and I would go there and spend the weekends with her like once or twice a month and we were sitting up front in the living area and she was in her her her place of thinking now where's my car? I've got to get to classes she was in that place of thinking I'm still teaching she wasn't frantic but she was just trying to plan everything and I said it'll be okay mother it'll be okay and she said Emily you don't understand I have to be effective and I'm sorry I said happens every time I said mother you are the most effective person I've ever known and she looked at me like she was that 11 year old girl and she went really and I went oh yes ma'am you are so I would want to let her know I get it because in the later years of my career I felt like I had to fight to be effective then once I retired and I don't have Alzheimer's I can realize how important it was but yet how for the big picture of things how it wasn't always that important to be effective all the time to be right all the time to you know does that you see what I'm saying to to be able to be part of of life rather than do my job all the time you know and I would like to say I hope that she had time in the years after she retired until Alzheimer's got so intense that she was able to say I enjoyed life you know and to let her know that we were all very proud of her and that I was sorry for being complicated and that I thank her for putting up with my crazy irresponsible choices and still loving me through it.

SPEAKER_03 49:03

So in a way you did get to tell her some of what you wanted to at that time. Yeah when you had the you did get to share some of that. Yeah well thank you for being here today and for sharing your story uh some funny parts and some uh harder things to remember but I do appreciate it oh I appreciate you both so much and you're a great listener thank you thank you and thank you listeners for joining us today as well I hope the story of Joy Griner will bring a little joy to your day as well and don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss the next daughter's story. And as my mother Bobby Seal would say be patient be kind and be fair