Dauphin Island Diaries
A long-form history podcast focused on the people, places, and stories that shaped Dauphin Island and the Alabama Gulf Coast.
Dauphin Island Diaries
DID Bonus INTERVIEWSDAY Material (3) - Interview with Jason Herrmann
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It's INTERVIEWSDAY!
In this Interviewsday edition (Interview Tuesday) of Dauphin Island Diaries, I sit down with Jason Herrmann of the Alabama Marine Resources Division to explore one of the Gulf Coast's most valuable natural resources... oysters.
Jason serves as Alabama's Shellfish Aquaculture Program Coordinator and has spent years working to conserve, restore, and expand oyster resources in Alabama waters. His expertise helped provide much of the background research for our recent episode, "The World Is Your Oyster," and in this conversation he explains why oysters have been so important to the Gulf Coast's history, economy, and environment.
In this conversation, Jason discusses:
• Alabama's oyster industry, past and present
• Oyster reefs and their importance to coastal ecosystems
• Shellfish aquaculture and how oysters are raised today
• Challenges facing oyster populations in Mobile Bay and surrounding waters
• Conservation and restoration efforts along Alabama's coast
• Why oysters have played such an important role in the history of Dauphin Island and the Alabama Gulf Coast
Like many of our Interviewsday conversations, this episode provides the deeper background behind one of our historical stories. While "The World Is Your Oyster" explored the history of Alabama's oyster industry, this interview offers insight from someone who works every day to help ensure that tradition continues for future generations.
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Hosted by Big John Summers
Produced by Summers Media Enterprises
Foley/Sound effects recorded by Big John Summers
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Okay, so looking forward to today's interview. This is going to be, I think, pretty interesting from my perspective because this is an opportunity for me to be able to learn more about the industry of, you know, the seafood industry in this area. And one of the things that is of particular interest in this area, and it's it goes back to the prehistory of this island, is the oyster industry. And in our episode two, we talked about the Indian shell mountains here on Dauphin Island and that they are middens, that they are made out of primarily oyster shells that were harvested over centuries in the prehistory and actually early history of the island. And so as a result, I do have Jason Herman here with me today. He is with the Alabama Marine Resources Division, and he's going to be talking on exactly what I just mentioned there. So, first of all, I want to say, Jason, welcome and thank you for having me here. Thank you for being willing to uh host this in this ginormous uh conference room that you guys have here. And thank you very much for um being willing to spend your time with us this afternoon.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you for having me, and and I appreciate the opportunity to talk about uh some of the historical context of uh oyster management and oyster utilization in Alabama and and around Dauphin Island.
SPEAKER_00Very good. And and by the way, for for my folks that are uh listening that also are kind of crossover listeners that also listen to the Tennessee History Nerd, he's from Tennessee, or at least um lived a good bit in Tennessee and got his degree from Middle Tennessee State. You know, so uh he's he's a Blue Raider. And so that was interesting given that that's also where I went to college back in the day. So wanted to make mention of that. So um with regard to the oyster industry, I mean it's been something that's had some ups and downs. I think that we are probably in a period of of what I would call rebound where they're trying to redevelop it. And it's to some degree it's it's almost from a farming standpoint as opposed to a wild oyster standpoint, if I'm understanding correctly, but you know more about that than I do.
SPEAKER_01So the um the public oyster harvest um has had a history and and like you said, ups and downs. Um oftentimes it's it's just uh a natural phenomena that will come through historically. We would have hurricanes come through, we would have drought, we would have uh oyster drills, and oyster drills are predatory snail. Um that happens when the salinity is just right, usually a little little higher on the reef. They like salty, salty water. Um and uh we'll have periods of of high productivity and then and something will maybe wipe out uh a large portion of the oysters or oyster reefs uh in several areas down here, several important areas, and then they'll come back. Most of our uh really all that I know of of of these uh periods of time where oysters have been in decline, it's really been environmental. Uh and but we still manage the the fishery and the the fishermen because it becomes really important when oysters are in decline to make sure that uh we we keep a a good portion of our reproducing adults out there. And so it's always this this uh game we play, but but we really haven't had an opportunity to overfish. It's always been environmental activities uh that have brought us down. So I want to make sure that's that's very clear in other fisheries. A lot of people will point towards the the the fishermen, the harvesters, whatever species they're harvesting. But in this case in in Alabama waters, from what I've uh uh read about the historical ups and downs of the oyster reef industry and what we're currently kind of going through, we're in in a in a decline. It's it's really been environmental, whether it's salinity issues, drought issues, predatory issues, there's some you know man-made things, deep water horizon oil spill and and other things that that can occur.
SPEAKER_00So to that point then, what kinds of man-made issues are we talking about?
SPEAKER_01So some of the some of the things that have occurred over the years So the way oyster reefs grow when they're thriving naturally, oysters will settle on the shell that was there before that, they'll grow into an oyster. Uh if they're not harvested, they'll live their lives, they'll die and deposit their shells on the reef. And so it it grows the reef over time. Uh so the most persistent reefs are the ones that really they've harded themselves over time by having sh shell deposited and redeposited and redeposited. In fact, cross-section of a of a naturally occurring reef generally will have almost as much shell under the reef as it will as the the shell mound, the the thriving oyster reef mound or living part of the oyster reef on top. And so that makes a stable environment. In about the 1940s, there was a lot of shell dredging going that were was allowed to the the idea was that the shell that was underneath the surface was just lost and and not really that important. We can use that in industry, construction, paving, concrete, whatever we needed to do. There's lots of uses for oysters, an oyster shell. And so so for several decades there was a lot of dredging of the shell material that was underneath the surface. And we feel now that that that probably could have led to diminishing areas where oysters can grow.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So is that that that contributed to some of the decline? What about things like um dredging the channels and and for like the infra coastal waterway for the the channel coming out from Mobile to out into the Gulf?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. That changes the dynamics. You know, everybody's looking at at the different ways in which they change the dynamics. The it can allow saltier water to get up higher into the bay along the deep channel. It can break up areas that would have flow or have oyster larvae that could make it from one reef to another. It can it can cause a a barrier to decrease the connectivity between reefs or or reefing areas too.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So how has it maybe affected the salinity?
SPEAKER_01Has there been any so salinity is affected in a number of ways. Of course, there's there's salt water that can be pushed up into the bay. After Katrina, we had a large break in our island that a lot of folks said we had a lot of salt water that was pushed up into our bay and and led to some of the problems we had with oyster drills, which I mentioned earlier, like like saltier water. But we we go from these drought conditions where it gets saltier and have the predators to yearly conditions where we have uh a lot of rain in the spring and and almost too much, just just gushing rain. And and rather than it being a matter of having being rained down locally and having that fresh water directly hit us, that generally doesn't isn't the big deal. If it rains on North Alabama and it comes washing down our mobile Tensor rivers, that fresh water is the thing that can cover our reefs. And in my opinion, they they need some continuous freshwater input to control those oyster drills from time to time. But what happens is you don't have this median between, oh, it's too salty now we got the oyster drills, or you know, it's too it's it's always either either one extra one extreme to the other. It's too fresh because it can kill the oysters outright. If it doesn't kill the large oysters, fresh water between below ten parts per thousand for the duration of a week can kill any of the larvae that are deposited, so it affects reproduction. It can stress out the adult oysters, it may not kill them directly, but they're not going to go into reproductive mode, they're gonna go into survival mode, which they basically close themselves up and try to make it through to when conditions are right again. And so a combination of of those types of yearly inputs of rainfall have have been continuous over the last 15, 20 years, and we haven't had much of an environmental break.
SPEAKER_00Right. So what I'd like to, you know, we we've talked about you know what a reef, uh you know what a healthy reef, you know, the the the structure of it. Let's assume just for a moment that that the listener knows nothing at all about oysters, but really wants to. What would you tell them about how uh an oyster reef, a healthy oyster reef, how it's how it's made from a from a natural standpoint, what nature, how nature constructs that? Sure.
SPEAKER_01So oysters, well, I'm sure folks see them, they they they'll think of other organisms that kind of look like them, whether they're clams or scallops or or other other bivalves. But oysters themselves, once they have attached to something, they're there for the duration of their lives. But they do have a free swimming stage. So adult oysters will spawn into the water, they will fertilize within the water, and then you'll have a free-swimming oyster larvae that swims around for up to two weeks, and at that point it develops a foot. We call those uh petty villagers, and petty means foot, and they'll sink to the bottom and they'll try to find a substrate to attach to, and then they start cementing to that, and then they they grow. Now these are, if you look at a printed period on a page, that's about the size of these larvae. So they're very small when you have poor environmental conditions, they're the quickest to be affected by those things. But they uh settle and then they they'll grow, and they can actually start reproduction about 30 millimeters, and most of those smaller ones are male, biggest ones are female, and what happens is the males will turn into females after a certain point, and they'll totally switch, and and those will be the egg producers. So the the females, the amount of eggs that are produced are is really dependent on the size of the egg, or um the size of the female. Larger females, you have exponentially more eggs than a than a smaller, smaller female. And so when I'm talking about a large female, that would be about three inches or 76 millimeters. And they reproduce, they settle, they grow, and if they're not harvested, they'll die right there on the reef. Their shell will fall apart, and they will basically that shell just falls to the bottom and it becomes the substrate for the next oyster larvae to settle on. And if this happens successfully year after year, decade after decade, century after century, you have the establishment of growing reef. It actually grows a grows a mound. The weight of it kind of pushes the earliest shell down into the substrate, but it still holds it. Its surface area will hold it. And this will continue until the next natural disaster, or you know, if if there happen to be over harvesting or something like that, that can bring a decline as well. I won't say over harvesting won't bring it bring a decline, but um but again it it's been environmental factors here in Alabama.
SPEAKER_00So going back to where we were talking about with the in back in the 1940s where you had the the situations with the the dredging of of the of the oyster reefs and and and pulling all the the substrate out. How many centuries or let me just that that that's a leading question. Let me just ask, how many years would that likely have taken with it that they had been in that position or or or is there even even any way to tell?
SPEAKER_01I mean it could have changed through storms and those kinds of things, obviously, but I think easily I'd say several several hundred years, but honestly, until until people become more efficient at harvesting and and really are able to or more efficient at dredging in that in that case. There wasn't much that affected those those reefs. And so I could even I would say definitely hundreds of years of of buildup of those reefs were were removed. Possibly even thousand.
SPEAKER_00So how does the depth of water affect things and and so was there any impact by dredging and making the water much deeper there in terms of oyster reproduction then after that?
SPEAKER_01Uh so the the depth can can affect them. So generally if they're you know under twelve feet, nine feet or below, the mixing of the the water can bring oxygen down to the bottom and and bring the nutrients down. If you start having deeper water, you could get into situations and we've we have certain reefs that have become unproductive because of low oxygen, they have low dissolved oxygen, and it's mainly because the the oxygen just doesn't get that that mixing down to that depth. Low oxygen is also uh tied to salinity and and temperature of water during the hottest parts of the year, you have the tendency to have lower lower oxygen.
SPEAKER_00So so with where we are right now. Where we are right now, right out here is is the bay. Behind the building here are where the middens are. This is where the if if the archaeological studies that I've read are correct, they came down from Bottle Creek in the pre-historic period in the in the Mississippian period. They came down here, this is where they set up, they had, you know, this ring of of mounds here. When I was talking to to John Moresca a few weeks ago when I was here, this would have been much shallower at that time. Yes. And so they could have weighted out and and harvested those things very easily, wouldn't have, you know, our our guys now have the these the tongs that they use, you know, the long handled reach in and grab the that that would not have been necessary. They could have done this by hand just about.
SPEAKER_01Uh yes, they could have done that by hand, and and I'm sure plenty of folks did it. Even even these days, some folks will still get out and and harvest by hand, the majority is as tongers. But the Native Americans also developed rakes from the materials that they had, and very similar to what we use today, too. So let's see, in the 1750s or so, uh some of the French explorers and things that that came by had had witnessed some of those things and logged some of those. Um that wasn't necessarily in the Gulf, but that's you know folks folks figure out the best ways to do things. Sure.
SPEAKER_00Well, where where I was really going with this, it had to do with how how the conditions would have been different with it being a shallow enough that they could have harvested by hand, it wouldn't have needed necessarily to have the tongs raked, those kinds of things. How would that have been different from a from um uh uh an environmental ecological type of uh of a situation for the growth and and s and sustained existence of oysters in this area right now because it because it's much less than it used to be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I think uh, you know, oysters that are closer to the surface. I don't know if you've looked out in into our bay and it it's it's kind of brown and and murky. And and murky, a lot of turb uh turbulence and a lot of sediment um gets turned over on a regular basis. I think oysters, at least here near the surface, have access to more phytoplankton. So those are the things that they filter out as the as the marine algae. And of course, algae is a plant, they need light, they're gonna do better near the surface than underneath the the murky water. Doesn't mean they're not mixed in in that they can't get to them down there, but on some of our uh oyster farms the they'll have them in cages that are nearer to the surface and they'll have a pretty quick grow uh growth rate.
SPEAKER_00So and I've even seen interestingly, the the the current episode, the one that we just released this morning, is is on artificial reefs. And I know that David Walter, uh Walter Walter Marine, that they've developed they've developed specific reefs for oyster farming for in like estuary type of environments to be able to help with with that. I know that there's several several operations over like in Biolabactery that that are working on the the farming. And and so I think that those guys, are they like doing suspended type racks that they that they use to keep those near the surface?
SPEAKER_01Or yeah, there's several several methods. There's the long line system, it's Australian long line where they uh have several baskets that they they hang on a line. Sometimes they'll put them in floating cages. It's basically cages that have a pontoon on one side and they'll they'll flip them over so the oysters are underneath the the pontoons, of course, in the waters where they're feeding and all those. For both of those systems, it's real important for the the just for the appearance of the oysters and the to to get them defouled. It doesn't necessarily affect the the the taste or the health of them, but definitely they look prettier on the plate when they're when not so many things are growing on them. So in all those instances, the pontoons they would flip them over where the pontoons are on the bottom, the oysters are up in the air for a certain amount of time to keep barnacles and things from growing on them. And then with the lung line system, they just lift up the lines and put them on a higher hook, with the same principle of just kind of keeping things from growing on them.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And and then so from from that stand what what you were talking about that where they filter, you just mentioned this. One of the things that I've you know, so in Tennessee, as you know, we also have freshwater mollusks, which are similar in in some ways. Obviously, saltwater, freshwater, very you know, that you've got that major difference there. But in talking to his name is Bob Keist in in Camden, Tennessee, where they have the Tennessee Freshwater Pearl Museum, he talks about with me that this you know the these mollusks, they're filters. That's what they do. So wondered if you could speak to to that a little bit and and speak from from a biological standpoint how that all works. Sure, sure.
SPEAKER_01So oysters have to sit. They can't go chase after their food and food has to come to them. So that's when you have conditions where you have you know moderate currents and continuous overturn of of the water, you know, wind wind-driven turbulence and things like that. It's it's really good for oysters because it makes sure they get a constant stream of the the phytoplankton, the algae that they like to eat. But yeah, they are great filter feeders. A large oyster can filter up to 50 gallons a day. And and often when when we're trying to get a restoration project going for oysters, we make sure that folks know that it's not just trying to get the oysters growing, it's trying to also bring back the environment, the habitat. And part of that is if if they're filter feeding, they're they're taking sediment out of the water, they're you know basically cleansing their so their surroundings. And so it's it it's within the the reef um the reef as a whole, we can talk about individual oysters and then we can talk about how oyster reefs affect things. An individual oyster here or there is not going to make that big of a deal, but when you have a big a large um population of oysters, it can actually filter out quite a big bit of water over a short amount of time.
SPEAKER_00So so for a a reef to be healthy, an oyster reef to be healthy, you're looking for water that is the right environment. You're not looking for necessarily water that is crystal clear clean. It doesn't if it's crystal clear clean, they don't have anything to eat. That's absolutely correct. Yes.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, it's in if you see crystal clear oysters ain't growing. It's it's probably not they're not gonna grow there. There's gonna be slim pickings for for what they what they want. So but uh yeah, just the mix and the I talk about the turbulent sediments, but within those sediments are also the the microalgae, the the uh phytoplankton that they're that they're feeding off of.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And so you you you said that you had done a good bit of uh uh of research with regard to the history of the management. Uh would you like to talk through that a little bit? I I'll I'll stop asking questions and let you kind of speak to that.
SPEAKER_01Sure. Um and and I won't hit every single point. The the management of our oysters here in Alabama has gone through a lot of changes, a lot of agency changes, and I'll I'll quickly touch on that. But it's Really, their roles that I want to make sure that I that I touch on. And then also the time period in which some of the laws that we still use today came into place. So it's not not as important to know the names and the names of the agencies and the and the folks mount uh managing it at the time. But really, our first first legislative action recorded as in 1852, and then later it was put in the Code of Alabama of 1867, and it was the the law basically established that you could only use tongs. And I'm sure you can do some hand harvesting as well. But as far as like dredging and other mechanical means, that that took that out of the picture for Alabama harvest. Uh without getting diverting too much. There is some dredge harvest from time to time, but it's on a special, a special special areas and special permits and things like that.
SPEAKER_00So so to that point, I mean you said that's for Alabama. So how how pervasive or how how uh how common is is dredge harvesting elsewhere?
SPEAKER_01Uh so dredge harvesting is currently allowed on our our private oyster beds because those are oysters that they've put down and they can they can harvest them as they need. But as far as uh public harvest, uh Mississippi has a a very large dredge harvesting areas where they are basically driving their boats around. They put down a commercial dredge, it could be about a hundred and twenty pounds, and they'll do some circles and they'll pull it up. It's a very efficient, but they've got larger reefs than Alabama does too. So so they they manage things, you know, based on their coastline and the amount of the amount of area that they have to work. But they have a very really a larger dredging harvest. Larger system? Yeah, uh dredging harvest than than a tonging harvest there.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And and then how how quickly do the oysters rebound there?
SPEAKER_01So the whole Gulf Coast is kind of in the same the same environmental slums as as we are. They they have a lot of the same issues happening. Not not exactly, you know, one for one, but definitely there's some spillways that are opened up and affect Mississippi oysters that uh it's not just the direct rainfall, but it's you know upstream when somebody opens up a dam or a spillway to to make things perfect where they're at, it makes things less perfect downstream for the oysters. So so every state has their own story of uh or stories of how how all of those things affect their reefs. But all in all, across the Gulf, I think we're all in an in a decline. We have these little upswings and downswings, and we're we're all trying to to get to historical levels and do whatever we can to do that, and it it mother nature just doesn't seem to want to give us a break all across the board.
SPEAKER_00I think what I'm where I'm looking at this is it just seems to me like those kinds of operations being much more efficient in terms of how they would harvest, if you don't have the larvae coming back in behind and and replenishing that, then then you're you're moving in the wrong direction in terms of management, it would seem like. That's the reason I was asking.
SPEAKER_01So Right. So uh and what you're kind of talking about is is whether a system is larvae limited. And at this point, well, if it does become larvae limited, then we're absolutely in in the worst, the worst conditions that we can be. But at this point, even if the main reefs it I'm gonna speak for Alabama, not the other, not the other states, but in within Alabama, even if the main reefs aren't doing very well, there's there's little areas and pockets of productivity within the bayous and things around here that that can produce a ton of larvae. And generally, if environmental conditions allow, it doesn't it shouldn't take very much time to rebound. Two or three years and they can get back up to productive their productive levels again. Okay. But if you keep having this fresh water input that's that's really deleterious to this tiny, tiny little larvae in the water, or stressing out the the grown adult oysters while they're in the you know in their most important periods of time where they're trying to reproduce, it it it hits them kind of twofold. It doesn't mean that they're not producing, it just means that there's less survival of those of those larvae.
SPEAKER_00All right, well, I pa I apologize. I took us down a rabbit hole. So we go back and and and so so Alabama in in the in the 1850s and 1860s, they said, you know, you gotta use tons. You can't use uh other means other than for these special circumstances. And so take us back where we stuck our pen in right there, let you pick back up at that point. Sure, sure.
SPEAKER_01So really from a little later on, from 1910 on to maybe 1930 up into three, that's where we start to establish most of our our mainstream oyster laws. The the the the things like you can't legally harvest, this is from public reef, you can't legally harvest anything over three or or under three inches. You need to make sure that you're culling, and what culling is is taking off the dead shell and any small oysters and leaving them in the water so that you leave the substrate in there and also the smaller oysters to be your next year's harvestable oysters. So culling laws applied during that period of time. So they've established public oyster reef wardens and oyster inspectors and things like that. Enforcement has always inspected the the volume allowed to that a harvester is allowed to have per per sack or however many sacks they can have per day. So they're per day.
SPEAKER_00So what drove what drove these conservation laws? I mean, I can I I you know in in in a lot of areas you can look at particular events or particular things that were happening that would be driving when conservation really started to to take effect and and how it that management was being done. What was driving that?
SPEAKER_01Well, so I think part of it is Alabama Coast is small. All all of the other Gulf states they can get to their reefs, but it might take several hours between. I can get from any part of our Alabama coast to the other within, you know, within two hours. Our oyster reefs are 15 minutes away, are most uh the ones that we are the most productive at this time. So that's very convenient for me, but it also means there's not that much area for oyster reefs to grow. When other folks are talking about tens of thousands of acres, you know, we're talking about about five thousand acres, maybe total, maybe up to seven thousand. If you look at all of the the oysters in in the bayous and things like that, too. But on our our main oyster reefs, that's we just don't have that many. So when a if you're an oyster harvester, they're very ingenious and and they're always thinking about how to do things better, quicker, more, more efficient. And I'm sure there was a bunch of dredging that started to occur because they're looking at their neighbors' dredging in other states, and they're hearing about how quick and how how many oysters they can get in through the day. We didn't really have there was there's periods of time where there weren't limits early on to how many oysters you could bring in. So I think the the state looked at how efficient folks were getting and said we can't do the same things as as in the other states. We can't allow all of that dredging. We need to we need to make you less efficient, I guess, and and and so we can conserve our our smaller populations of oysters. And and I think that's that's really kind of what what led to that is we really need to take care of that because the amount of oysters coming into the canneries and and the the shuckers and packers and things like that was was a massive amount back in the day.
SPEAKER_00And that was you know, just uh for for folks who may not realize this, you know, and before the bridge, and you could only get here by way of boat, oyster men and fishermen were really your population of Dauphin Island. And and so, you know, that that was a you know a pretty big deal. That was that was their livelihood, and you know, it's I don't think it's any accident that you know this office is here because of of what was going on then and and then what's right next door also with the FDA facility over there. Absolutely. So but okay, so we had we had these these conservation laws that begin to come in putting size limits, putting what we would call in in some areas creole limits, um what how much they can actually harvest in a in a day in terms of number of of of of specimens that are that are actually harvested, and where did that take us then?
SPEAKER_01So so there's it's it's developed different ways to protect them. There's other laws where you could no longer drag shrimp trawls over them and you can't sand over them and and things like that too. So it's also protecting them from other fisheries that that were considered deleterious uh to to the oyster populations. Back before 2011, our oyster season was open all year long. There wasn't any closures except for the when the health department would find some sort of health risk or something where there's too much rainwater or there's point source pollution or something like that. Something, you know, something got out into the water and they had to close everything. So so there was there was those types of closures. Very rarely in Alabama's history have have we stopped harvest because of of lack of oysters. But it it has happened a few, but most of the closures are are health related. So the health department we work very closely with them. They are their their whole goal is to protect human human interest, the consumers, the uh of of oysters. So and there's always an inherent risk of eating raw oysters that haven't been handled properly. And so uh a lot of the regulations and things that that our enforcement uphold are based on health-related issues, too. So when the health re the the the health department, Alabama Department of Public Health has a closure that that trumps our open. We might be open for harvest because of oyster numbers, but we close down because of any health issue that they need to that they have uh come across. So they're then they usually close down, they're trying to close down before anything actually before any oysters are harvested from from any that have gotten into anything or has had any pollution on them.
SPEAKER_00Okay. No, that that totally makes sense because you're you're gonna want you're gonna want to try to stay ahead of that. Get them if you identify that and can stop the harvest before it happens, then you don't end up contaminating your food, you know, your food supply. Your you know people downstream from from where you are here ending up you hear all the time, well, you know, you've got people who have been exposed to listeria or they've been exposed to E. coli through something in the food chain, you know, where things were harvested weren't properly prepared or or or what have you, weren't properly packaged. You're you're you're staying ahead of that with this. Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01So we've always worked very closely with with the health department. Our enforcement will confiscate, you know, any any sacks that they think are are part of uh a risk based on what the health department has determined. But we've put a lot of things in place since then. Some of the legislation and and management has really been put into place to account for not just the amount of oysters being taken off the reef, but uh to to protect consumers, but not just the consumers, but also protect the the industry, the dealers, and the catchers themselves. When people get sick, things kind of slow down, people lose trust in the product, the whole industry suffers. And it's not just when people get sick from oysters if if they if somebody gets sick, and in the paper they say shellfish, they immediately think oysters. Last time that happened, it was shrimp, but the oyster industry took a hit from from somebody getting sick. Um so the health department is very diligent in putting in place and working with us to uh to manage those. I mentioned 2011. Right. There was a lot of legislation, new management legislation that came through in 2011. We still have the same culling rules, the same the same size limits and things like that. But we closed down harvest during the hottest parts of the year. So May 1st to September 30th, they're closed down. Then we can open up from October to the following April 30th.
SPEAKER_00And is that from a health risk standpoint?
SPEAKER_01It's to minimize health risks a little bit as the as the summer comes along, you got the hottest parts of the year. Part of what the health department requires is that a harvested when oysters are harvested, they have a certain amount of time to get to mechanical refrigeration. And as you get into the hotter months, that amount of time lessens. You you you end up like July, August. Immediately. Immediately, you know, and and our oyster harvesters aren't really set up for immediate mechanical refrigeration. And so we still allow the the private guys to do that, but they also have I haven't really talked about oyster tags, it's how we mark all of our oyster sacks and and help with accountability. But they actually have to put an exact time that each sack is harvested or a group of sacks if they're doing bulk tags. And so there's a little bit more control that that they have of meeting those needs so that they can get them to mechanical refrigeration at the uh at the proper time during the hottest months. So it's just a a way to make sure that oysters are being handled and get and put into the the the freezers at the whatever dealer they sell them to. So yeah, we we stopped harvest during the hottest parts of the year, and then we really established our oyster management stations. There's always been check stations, and that's where I had talked about the enforcement, they would check the volume of sacks and how many sacks were coming in and making sure all the oyster catchers. That was that's from the historical perspective, early 1900s to to present, they still do that. But the oyster management station really requires the oyster catchers to check in every morning, and they've got to check out of that station. And what that does, when they come back, they have to buy, they have to basically tell us all about their their harvest day. Where did they harvest, how many sacks they harvested, and they also have to tell us what dealer that they're gonna take them to. And they tell us how how long they've harvested, how long their entire trip was, and how long they actually had their tongs in the water. So you have a full audit trail there then? We have a full audit trail. We know where they're supposed to go, and and they're required to get them there within an hour of landing. That uh so that's been very good for accountability. If somebody happens to get sick, you can track it back.
SPEAKER_00You you you know exactly where the ground zero was.
SPEAKER_01That's right. And so it may not be the oyster harvesters problem. They're doing everything right. Maybe the cooler that they got put into when they hit the dealer didn't, you know, wasn't working properly, or the middleman taking it upstream. Yeah, or the cooler in the in a truck taking it somewhere, you know, something like that. Or the restaurant that it went to, maybe somebody set them in the corner instead of putting them in the freezer or something like that, and and somebody got sick at the restaurant. So you can kind of track that track that back down. And one of the main things I'd mentioned, tags. Each sack needs a tag, and it has that information in it, and that information is also given to us to put into a computer program right there at the management station. So we're out there with with them in a in a mobile trailer, uh basically a mobile office, getting all that information that we we had, we didn't have a really good accountability of what was coming in before 2011 it was the put into place.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01So it's really helped us. Before that, if somebody gets sick and the health department does their investigation, but they're not sure exactly what happened, where it came from, they would go to all the dealers and say, Well, if you got any oysters between this time and this time, or this date and this date, they're all trash. And some of them might have been okay.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And so the industry really gets negatively impacted when maybe some of those folks could still sell their oysters and make a profit and and conserve the the uh population.
SPEAKER_00The population in the So what this lets you do then is be much more targeted and and much more surgical, I'll say, in terms of if you have to remove product from the from the from the sour from the from the supply chain. Absolutely. You can you can be far more surgical with that. You don't end up having to take this broad-based thing that you used to have to do and say, okay, yeah, everybody throw your stuff away. Right. And and and uh so okay, that and that's that is that's good for a lot of folks.
SPEAKER_01It protects the industry, it protects the consumer, yeah. And gives us a good accountability of where things are coming from for as just as far as oyster numbers, you know, where are they harvesting the most and and how many sacks are coming coming out of those, how many oysters are coming out of those areas.
SPEAKER_00And so in today's data-driven world, then you've got the ability then to to track that and and you can you can you can slice and dice that data a lot of different ways and and identify for a lot of trends that you might need to do.
SPEAKER_01So along with one of the laws that had been put into place very early on, it was the duty to replant. And I had talked about oyster shell being a good substrate for oyster larvae to settle on. Now they'll settle on anything almost, and sometimes we'll do restoration projects that are primarily a limestone, and they'll settle on limestone instead of the native oyster shell if we're having trouble getting that or it's too expensive. But the duty to replant historically has been the the dealers needed to replant half their shell that they that they received. And that didn't always happen. And so so that shell was just lost to the lost to the system, lost to the reef system. And so with this legislation that we've put into place, it's 2010, but 2011 is kind of the first round of that, we've established a shell fee. So we don't really require that, you know, them deploying half their shell back on the reef. Basically, we'll calculate, and this is just from the public reef, not private, uh, every sack that comes in that a reef that a dealer buys, they they owe a shell fee of two dollars per sack at this point. And so what that does, that helps us manage the oyster management station, which inherently has has a lot of accountability, great strides towards accountability already. It helps us if we want to do some restoration projects as far as going to use that shell fee to to buy shell and put it back in there. That's a big part of what we do too, is replenish shell that's been taken out. But that's how that law has changed. The duty to replant has turned into you guys don't have to replant, but you gotta help us do it. You know, if you've bought public oysters or oystered off the public reef, you'll owe us two dollars per sack. And then we'll calculate that along with the oyster management station data. I'll send them an invoice out and they they'll send that back to us.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01So we put that in an account that's just meant for oyster management purposes. Okay. So that's that's personnel working in the management station, that's that's vessels use.
SPEAKER_00So think something that that just occurred to me as you were talking and you were talking about they had put half that shell back out there. So first question, and this this just kind of off the wall question, and it may there may not be any connection, but is that where the oysters on the half shell came from? You put half of it back, and so you have the other half is what you served on.
SPEAKER_01Uh I don't think that's that's where where that term came from. It's just kind of the way that they served it. Okay. But uh it doesn't come from the the that law, I think. So that's just the way you know you go into an oyster bar or something and they shuck it open and you're eating eating them off the half shell.
SPEAKER_00Right. Well, I just wondered if that if the other half that's where they got the idea to use that other half to put back on the Yeah, it didn't I don't think it was related to that to that logic. But just it was kind of a weird thought that occurred to me as we're as we're here. Second thing, let's talk about supply chain here. And and it may not be, you know, when I say destination here, it may not be that Alabama it would be who would be supplying that area, and that's okay. But let's just say, you know, we're we we're back in Middle Tennessee. We go into a restaurant in Nashville and we order oysters on the half shell. How did they we we don't have oysters naturally in in Nashville, they have to come from somewhere. How did all that happen? How did it get from the water wherever it is to there? All right.
SPEAKER_01So harvesters they have to they have to sell to a dealer. They can't just take take some home. There's a there's a history of folks that would just chuck and and sell gallons of oysters, you know, out outside of that. And so these days with the 2010 legislation, it has to come through the management station, has to have tags, it has to go to a dealer, and then it can go to a consumer. So it actually has to be cooled down first before before we do that, or before somebody can take them home or eat them or a restaurant can get them. After that, after they're cooled down, if they maintain that temperature, even in transit, they they can be shipped out all across the United States mm at this point. the the uh the technology of of refrigeration has has really caused oysters to be a staple in places you wouldn't think. You know, it's far away from from any place that you could harvest them, but they can they can get there and and people can get them if they need to.
SPEAKER_00I mean yeah I mean I can go I can go to a restaurant in Boise, Idaho and order oysters. So I mean it's uh obviously not um wouldn't have traditionally been a a staple in Boise Idaho so yeah mechanical refrigeration has has really been the been the key to to getting them okay away from the coastal areas and everyone can enjoy them. So all right and then so that takes us you said 2010 that does that bring us all the way up to present or is there is there additional are there additional things that we would add into that that have changed the management even since then?
SPEAKER_01So part of with that we we defined our oyster areas not just by the reef but we actually you know gave them a code and everything like that. And we did that up until about 2021 and then we actually decided to go one step further and we've broken down all of our water into a grid system. So all of our little grids are 500 by 500 meters and they all have their unique um letter number code we kind of do it like like the game Battleship where we've got you know the a through z and then one two three across the way we're repeating Cartesian coordinate kind of thing. Yes yes so we repeat our our our letters because we've got more than that. But we harvest and and keep track of the grids the distinct grids that oysters are harvested from these days. So we're actually down to a 500 by 500 meter grid now that we can actually determine where oysters have have come from we do require the oyster harvesters to report that as one of the things that what what grid they were in and it's kind of neat we've got it set up to where they if they have a browser on their smartphone and and you'd be surprised about you know it the oyster catchers all have smartphones and and everything they can actually pull up their map put their location on and see what grid that they're in a little dot shows up. Okay it's not information we get back we're not tracking them through that or anything but they can see where they're at they can zoom in and see the number of the grid and then they they have that information. Now whether they accurately report that we've had some issues with that and we've got some some follow-up things where we go out on the water and actually verify where folks are at not just where we're they're reporting. So we kind of compare that to to where folks are reporting. So you get somewhere folks either don't know or they don't have a cell phone um some folks just call out the number of the guy in front of them in the line or or something like that. But overall you know there's we we try to reduce the error and then just verify it by our own accounts we'll drive around on the water and and basically put a track around where people are at.
SPEAKER_00So coming from um you know a data driven in healthcare data driven environment that that I worked in for years I can see the benefit of doing you know of having that kind of data but why don't you explain that for our listeners a little bit exactly how does that having that kind of data what does that do for you from a management standpoint?
SPEAKER_01From a management standpoint I mentioned briefly earlier that that one of our large roles is for restoration of oyster reefs. And so when we know where they've come where the oysters have been harvested from it gives us a better area to target when we're putting shells back down. So when we have funding to do uh large or small shell plantings uh we we d definitely want to replace the shell that has been taken so every time you take a a live oyster out that shell comes with them it's gone it's out of the system and if it there's no means of of putting that or some other culture back you know you you really start to deteriorate the reef. But uh but yeah it helps us to target areas that we're gonna we're gonna try to build back up.
SPEAKER_00I do want to just mention really quickly that that we are in a public building so you can hear conversations in behind us a little bit it's it's okay I just wanted to um the the the these these people aren't in the room with us it's just letting letting you know that that's uh we do have conversations in the background that may come across so what about from the standpoint of it you know from a management standpoint I think the background I have in Middle Tennessee having been involved in in sports fishing and hunting all my life tracking from the standpoint of understanding populations where they are and and ensuring that you know no area is overhunted or overfished is there any of anything along those lines that's that's that you're doing uh from a from an oyster management standpoint as well from these from this these grid coordinates that you have absolutely so when we worked out of the larger areas we would have to close a the large area and just move people off of a a main reef just because they hit our predetermined harvest estimate.
SPEAKER_01So I'm not going to call it a a quota because we're kind of flexible with our harvest estimate and I can go into that a little bit better. But it definitely helps us to just close the grids that they're working the most and move them on and they still have most of the reef left to left to go.
SPEAKER_00So they're not you you you're not having to close down a whole reef as a as a that's right as a point. Now you're just closing down a 500 by 500 square um 500 by five five hundred meter square area that you that so that that really allows you to be a lot more again surgical.
SPEAKER_01And they end up having more days on the reef instead of we're just closing closing you down. And so we we look at individual grids but we still look at the the harvest that comes in as a as a whole from some of the larger areas too so we we look at it in both ways and then determine so we don't really have a set number that's coming from each individual grid. We basically break our main reefs around Dauphin Island and Dauphin Island Bridge into three main areas. We've got the Heron Bay area uh there's Dauphin Island or I'm sorry Cedar Point West which is on the west side of the bridge Cedar Point East which is on the east side of the bridge and there are lots of many little areas within that and lots of grids within that but those are the ones that we come up with our estimate every year when we do our annual reef surveys. Okay so basically we come up with a well this is how many we can allow out of Heron Bay based on our we we dive on the reefs based on our dives how many come out of Cedar Point West and how many can come out of Cedar Point East. And then we we keep track of that even if it comes from this grid or that grid or not the important thing really is the reporting of the actual grids worked so that we know when to close down individual grids. So they may have the run of all of Cedar Point West or all of Heron Bay but they'll work like the four most productive grids oyster catchers are great at finding the most productive areas. Sure. That that's their that's their job is to to get their harvest get back in as quickly as possible. You know that's make it as efficient as they can and and try to do that. So they like to they see one oyster catcher having a good harvest they all kind of clump around sure and they end up working you know the same grids year after year after year. Really working those so there's certain grids that we're just like we know they're gonna be in there a whole bunch even even before the season starts and those will probably be you know based on the amount of folks within those grids day after day and how much harvest is reported out of those grids. Those are probably the first ones that we cut off the first it's usually three or four four grids and then we kind of push them out to where they'll spend some more time on the on the other ones. So we look at the sacks that come from from the area as a whole and where those are actually coming from based on the the grid reporting and then we can kind of move them elsewhere.
SPEAKER_00So knowing that these same grid squares get hit year after year after year, how does that impact how quickly they recover?
SPEAKER_01So our our goal every year when we're open for harvest is to leave some behind, not take everything. Right. Um because we got to have our adults to to to reproduce so it's a it's a weekly thing where the director and chief enforcement officer and the biologist will get together at this table where we're in a big conference room and we'll talk about what's come in over the week and we'll try to make our decisions for what we're gonna do next week if we're gonna close anything if we're gonna let it ride another week if we're gonna, you know it looks like weather has kept participation down so there's less harvest on there. It's not just less people are coming out there's usually a reason for it. So we talk about all of those things we put our heads together and try to come up with the best management practice to to not deplete the reefs but we're also interested in allowing the oyster catchers to utilize that resource. So it's this balancing act it's not us against fishing. You know we want fishing and we want fishing for many years and we want their and the whole point of sustaining where you can continue doing that. So and and so we come to these decisions where we pinpoint some grids that we've got to move them off or else they're going to take them down to a poor level.
SPEAKER_00So historically in most areas your your hunters and your fishermen are among your greatest conservationists is that what you see here or do you find that there are people who try to buck the system and you end up having to be a little bit more stringent in your enforcement with them?
SPEAKER_01Well along with all of those other all of those other resources that folks go through you still have a large group of people and within that group of people you've got the people that really care about what's going on. You've got the people that just want to get what they can get you've got the people that will take and take until there's nothing if you let them but you got a lot of people that want things to be good. I've found that there's more more of our harvesters that that do care about what's going on. They don't always agree with the closures that we do. That's you know there's there's some contention sometimes depending on on which grids that we close down. That's a lot of times I think philosophical more so than it is they think that you're you're being overly cautious almost helicopter parent type sometimes sometimes but we get a mixed uh a mixed opinion across the board you've got some guys just like you guys are doing good management's doing good this is what we need we don't need to deplete everything and there's other folks that's like why don't you let us take them all you know so some folks will will think of it as a as a crop that you plant and then you harvest everything every every season. It doesn't work that way and that's that's it's not the same dynamics as as as terrestrial terrestrial farming. But I've heard I've heard that before but we've got the mix of folks we've got a good group of several catchers have been actually planting oysters on their own they we've we've provided them a permit so they're out there and and the enforcement knows what they're doing and all that. They've gathered the shells on their own they're taking them out on their own and and they're trying to do some good and they're they're taking off their daily other jobs that they have to do this from time to time. And I think we've we've had a really good it's it's this is the first year I've seen them want to do that, try to do that and actually do that. And so we're working with them to determine the the the places that they can and can't go and and things like that. But but it's really good to see the the oyster harvesting community you know take take part in that too. So but they're they're giving of themselves for sure sure to do that. You know when we plant we plant because we've gotten a lot of funding and you know right and and we have you have larger larger planting but these guys are this is on their own this is on their own they're using their own time their own resources they're and and they're and they're doing they're doing some good and they're actually got small vessels so they can get into some areas that we can't do with our when we're planting a lot of culch we blow it off a barge or have it mechanically shoveled off a barge into the areas that we want to but we can't get into all the little narrow shallow little spots and these guys are able to to pinpoint certain areas that that they know and they've even done some surveying to beforehand not just putting things haphazardly they've come back and said well we thought that'd be good but it wouldn't and there sh you know they shift their their their things. So I I think it's a good the other thing about Alabama being a very small coast is that we know most of the guys that we're we're working with. Sure. You know and and small community. Small community and other states don't have the capacity to sit down and talk to their oyster catchers on a on a regular basis. They'll have their commissions and things like that that that have been appointed by all of these but but but we we're we're kind of blessed to where we have that opportunity to sit down and talk to them maybe argue with them a little bit about this and that that I'm not gonna say that doesn't happen. We don't always have the all the same ideas but but it's it is nice to to sit down and be like we all want something good to happen. We might have different methods of doing that and and sometimes closing areas that they don't want closed right away but but just aiding in the restoration has been been a a great thing over the last few months with several of these guys.
SPEAKER_00So now I'm going to ask you to get your crystal ball out and kind of try to look into the future a little bit what does the next five years look like for the oyster industry here? What does the next 10 years look like? What's the next quarter century look like that is the question we ask every every day.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh especially when I talk about weather patterns precipitation and causing all these fresh water flows and things like that. The question I ask is is this just a little period of time that this is this is occurring or is this the way it is now? You know are we going to go back to Is this the new the new the new reality? So is Mother Nature going to go back to something that is is more conducive to oyster survival and and make sure it's not killing larvae during the most uh important parts of their spawning they get two two spawning peaks one in the summer when the temperature rises past 20 degrees C and then when it in the fall they get one more shot this is this is typical they get in the fall when the temperature takes a drop we get one more spawn. And if Mother Nature's interfering with one or both of those it really really messes us up and and we've had a lot of spring spawns that have been interfered with because of the spring rains and the fresh water and things like that. So I I don't have an answer for you with my crystal ball but those are the those are the things that I think about you know I if it if this is the way it is now then I I do worry about how the oyster reefs if the oyster reefs are in continuous decline at some point it's gonna it's gonna get so things I've been hearing from you and you can correct me if I'm wrong if I'm if I'm kind of barking up the wrong tree so to speak here but you've got a lot of things that you guys I mean take take Mother Nature off the table for a moment.
SPEAKER_00You've got a lot of things that really impact the oyster population here that you have no control over that is man-made. So is there any ability to coordinate like with the Corps of engineers and with TVA and whoever else that you would be working with because I mean the things you're talking about I'm gonna say even on the Tennessee River you know up in Gunner'sville and in areas like that when they're releasing water for flood control there sooner or later it makes it down here. You know it's gonna make it through the Tom Bigby waterway it's gonna it's gonna end up through down the Mobile River and it's gonna it's gonna be deposited in the bay it's going to impact you guys is there any is there any ability are you already doing this? Is this something that's been considered where you're coordinating with them rec you know recognizing yeah they're trying to manage the the flood control in northern Alabama but sooner or later what they're doing impacts you know the Gulf.
SPEAKER_01And and it it gets very difficult because each individual area has to make the decisions for their individual area as to if I don't open this all of my folks float right. You know and so and you can't fault them for that. Right. But it's still you know how do you how do you find a balance between yes this community upstream and what's happening downstream? I I I'm not gonna I'm not gonna pretend to to have that balance or those answers but but those those talks are always in s always going on the coordination that is you're attempting to do whether it's it actually works out to your benefit or not it is something you're doing.
SPEAKER_00That's yes that's something that's that I think is happening happening continuously you know or good. So because I mean it occurred to me and I and and I never would have thought about this but I mean where I live in Tennessee I'm I'm I'm 30 40 minutes away from Nick Lake. Nickajak Lake on the Tennessee River when they're releasing water and it's going down into then down into Alabama and it's coming you know uh what they do managing the water just outside of Chattanooga Tennessee can impact what you guys are doing down here. Absolutely and and that and I think that that's not something before this conversation that ever would have occurred to me. And and so you know it's it's kind of the the old Buddhist thing it's all connected and and and the balance that you're striving to reach is far more complex than probably most people even realize.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and I I don't know if there's ever going to be any solutions and even if one state comes up with a solution for for their oyster reefs you know the the next state might still be fighting fighting the battle you know between between all the user groups of the of that body of water. You know it's in historically the the rivers were our roadways so they were our our places where communities had to develop and settle on this they're they're where all the trade happened up and down those we've got roads now that take take a big chunk of that and the rivers are still important but they maybe maybe less so than they were when they were the only only reliable transportation.
SPEAKER_00Even even with the the trucking I mean if you're wanting to if you're wanting to haul on a large scale it's still by water. And and I mean so I I I think back you know of course things are are different now because a lot of the textiles have gone offshore but I think back to you know the 1940s I mean it it it really kind of died out in the in the 1960s that that Knoxville Tennessee was huge in textiles and so you would load those up on a on a vessel and put them on the Tennessee River and it would come down and you know now not only I mean before it would have gone through New Orleans because it would have come all the way down it would have hit the Ohio River it hit the Mississippi gone down. Now it doesn't have to do that it can come through mobile because of the Tom Bigby waterway and and so you've got that you've also got the intercoastal waterway that has changed things so many different ways that we didn't have before I'll say the 1960s. But now we do but all of those things that we've done to make commerce more efficient also has a biological impact. Absolutely absolutely and an environmental impact. So and that also means that there's an awful lot more variables that impact what you're doing that would not necessarily have been there I'll say 60 70 years ago.
SPEAKER_01That's that's true. That's true. So and and those impacts are always kind of being looked at for exactly what what they're what they're causing and and things like that. It's important to know how complex or to to think about how complex things are. And and and they get there and they get there relatively everything's expensive these days, but they get there relatively cheaply because there's safe passage of the vessels that can get sure get them to where they need to get to their harbor.
SPEAKER_00Right. But I mean then you've got places you know because for example Bon Secur used to be a huge oyster bed over there. Not so much now is my understanding and you could probably answer that far better than I could but how how how much how much has that been impacted by say the inter intracoastal waterway?
SPEAKER_01So the exact effect or or it it's it's hard to say but we're sure it has had had some impact. It's it's allowed you know different different water quality to to roll through their changes.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So and you've got a you know you've got a ditch that's that's that's been dug in there so you can change the depth change the oxygen levels.
SPEAKER_00Yep. So all you know all the things that and and and you know I was reading I was reading something and and you again you you were able to answer this far far more succinctly and and accurately than me but oysters are very the the their their environment it's it's a very narrow fragile environment that they thrive in.
SPEAKER_01It's so oysters themselves are can be pretty pretty hardy they can they can they can live in a range if there if there's nothing else happening they can live in a range of salinities. They can live in a range of temperatures uh even they can stand some low oxygen for for a small amount of period of time. So but when you just have this continuous amount of fresh water on one side you know 15-20 days of less than 10 parts per thousand or something like that happening during our most productive times of the year when they're spawning or it goes the other way where the oysters are fine with a little bit higher salinity um up to you know 25 parts per thousand they they they'll be all right but the oyster drills they just there's nothing to control them fresh water really kills those drills so I think there's always a there's a good thing to have some fresh water inflow periodically throughout the year. They're always going to be there they're a natural predator but it controls them to where they can't run rampant and lay their egg egg sacks all over the place and and take over pretty much which is the reason why they thrive more in estrogen
SPEAKER_00Type waters. Yes. I mean they could they could survive easily in the sl the more s more salty, more saline areas, but then they've got to deal with predators that there's no or um no means of controlling in those situations.
SPEAKER_01So when we've been overrun by by uh oyster drills, they pretty much eat themselves out of house and home. They they eat all the oysters that they have access to, and then they just kind of die off regardless of what salinities. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So so they eat themselves out of house and home. But then you've got a collapsed reef, you don't have anything there. That's right. All right, so I'm going to do the same thing with you that I do with a lot of folks. Um I'm going to take a page out of Dan Rather's book. What have I not asked you that I should have asked you?
SPEAKER_01Um I guess the only thing we haven't really touched was our I talked about our yearly assessment, maybe just a little bit more information on on how we come up with our flexible harvest goal. Okay. So every year uh we do quadrat surveys. Uh so a quadrat uh is a standard scientific sampling technique where you take a square. Um in our case, we use a square yard, and but you can use anything because you can convert you can as long as you have a known area. Um but we take a square yard, we dive down to the bottom of the reef, whichever reef area that we're wanting to survey, we put the square yard down and then we scrape everything from that square yard into a bag. We'll take that back and we'll go through it. We'll count oysters, uh uh adult oysters, we'll count spat, sublegal oysters, we'll count how many drills are on it, how much shell is in there, um, and come up with those those numbers. And then if you know the the area of your main reef system, you just apply those, that known area of that sample to that, just a conversion factor of of square yards to to acres or something like that. So you're just extrapolating that to get your Yeah, I usually report in acres when I'm talking to the oyster community. We have a yearly meeting after I do this and kind of tell them what what the season's gonna look like. But yeah, we'll we'll do that. It's usually about uh 20 dives, and the dives will have 10 samples each. We have them on a line, all the all the sample bags on a line, and so we swim down the line and get 10 samples per area of interest, and those 10 samples are averaged together, and basically we use that to get an estimate of what's on the main reef. There's some error that goes with that. We're trying to figure out some techniques to s to spread those samples out so they're not all on a line. But for divers in the the water fighting currents and things like that, it can it can be hard to put them down in ten separate areas totally away from each other. Okay. But it because it's scuba diver has to get back on the boat and be dropped down somewhere else. So we try to minimize that with the way that we do that. But it does inherently have some problems with with coverage. So I always tell the oyster catchers, there's no secret, you know, there's errors in what we do. Our samples might have been on a real productive area, and we use that to estimate what's on the larger area, or maybe our samples or one or two of our samples ended up in between two reef mounds, and they're giving us zeros, and then we all apply that together, and that would lessen the amount of harvestable sacks that we estimate. So we take all that information and we come up with the best estimate that we we can. I apply those GD20 dives, I'll apply those between what's done on Cedar Point East, what's done on Cedar Point West, and what's done in Heron Bay. So I come up with those three, a total sack amount, and then I come up with what the sack, the harvest sack limit would be for each of those areas. We figure out what's 100%. We don't want to take 100% oysters, so we we've traditionally backed down and we we start the we've start the reef kind of having 33% harvest of the total. Okay, so you're taking a third. We yeah, we take it take a third. And and then if we throughout the season, as we're monitoring it at the oyster management station and talking each week, if there's an underrepresentation, we've actually been able to say, oh, you can have more harvest in this in this area. And so the the number would actually go by like say at the end of the season it might go up to 49%, but that's based on our first estimate, which inherently had some some error. So a good example, I forgot exactly which year it was, I think it was 2000, could have been 2020, could have been 21, our cedar point east area. Our sample said there there wasn't anything there. But we did open it up because we allow folks to to kind of check for themselves, and some sacks started coming up. And so we allowed more harvested on our harvest on our cedar point east area, and so it it it brought up the percent of our total harvest, but we had error and said that was zero. So so, in all reality, if if we would have gone back and done another survey there, we probably would have gotten different results, and we probably would have been closer to 33 percent at at the end of it. Um if we had the challenge is finding your representative sample. That's right. And we and we we usually stick with that 33 percent, and that's kind of our benchmark. We're always kind of seeing where we are each week when we sit down at the table. But it we I I don't like to use that word quota because it's not. We can we can make we can open up different areas, we can close things, we can reopen areas if we had to. Sometimes we we have done that before where we've closed something. I've gone and done a quick assessment just to see and then reopened it before in the past. Generally that's that's not what we do most of the time, but it's there are all possibilities within the harvest season.
SPEAKER_00So I'm gonna make a few summary statements and anything that I have misstated or not been completely accurate, I want you please to correct me. But basically, you have a season. Your season is fall to spring. That season is based on health reasons more so than anything else, is to ensure that the the harvest is able to be managed safely such that you're not creating unsafe food conditions for what's being taken and sold. That's the primary driver behind that. Am I stating that correctly?
SPEAKER_01It is it's a it's a combination of of both the the resource numbers, the count of the resource, you know, and and trying to avoid depletion and also trying to make sure the consumers are are protected. Okay, so the season is also around depletion. Yes. Okay. In fact, we might have some opening and closures from the health department, which we we we close down all harvests to, even though we've got the numbers still, the sacks have not been harvested that that we had estimated.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01And then we'll open back up and we'll kind of keep going and see how it see how it goes after the health department says that things are are clear for us to harvest again. Okay. So what's what's interesting about the oyster management stations, one of the things that drove the need for that accountability was to to help the dealers uh in Alabama, which are kind of becoming few and far between, the the oyster processors and the oyster dealers. If we wouldn't have gone to that system, there would have been pushes to go to post-harvest processing. And I'm not sure if you know what that is, but post-harvest processing is where you could still have half-shell oysters, but they've been they've been treated and they're actually not alive when they come to your table. So uh there's different ways to do it. You can do like cold pasteurization, you can do some some light steam pasteurization because you still want them to seem raw, uh, some pressure, something. There's different techniques. Post-harvest processing, it actually kills the oyster. You don't get that live oyster that that people like to have at their oyster bars and things like that. But to do that, the dealers would have to put in the infrastructure to do that. That would have taken out a lot of our dealers. And so you get you get two things where it's like, oh, there's there's more things we gotta do to get our oysters, but if we didn't have the oyster management station put into place, there wouldn't there wouldn't be any dealers. They would there'd be very forced out of the business because they couldn't handle the over the overhead involved. Right. Some of the smaller mom and pop shops would just be gone. They they wouldn't be able to do it if that was if that ended up being required of them.
SPEAKER_00And so so let me let me ask this, and I want to what you what you are dealing with here with these seasons, these are commercial or these are you know people selling commercially. Is there anything where you've got people who say, you know, I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna get a bag, I'm gonna go harvest a bag of oysters so that we can have some here at the house? Yes. Okay.
SPEAKER_01So you can harvest recreationally. Okay. Um, and you still have to go to the oyster management station. Okay. And this this is a little I'll talk about a little source of contention because it didn't always used to be that way. But I'll tell you what what we can do now, and then I'll go back to what used to be allowed. Sure. So every person can get a hundred oysters per person per day. Okay. That's about a five-gallon bucket full of full of oysters. You, your child, your wife, your best friend, you go out on a boat, you get a hundred oysters per person per day. If you get 101, you've become a commercial oyster catcher. So you would have needed to buy that commercial oyster license. And so it behooves you to go back with 99 to make sure you didn't go to 101. Yeah, or count them count them real well. They still got to follow the culling rules, and they they actually have to you can only harvest them during times and in the areas that are open to commercial harvest. Okay. But you don't need a saltwater fishing license. You don't, you can, you don't need to live here, you know. We do have a recreational oyster tag at at the uh oyster management station. So they still have to come back at the end of their harvest, they get a tag to put on their bucket just to get them home. And that's so if uh enforcement s sees a bucket of oysters on the road, they see this tag on them and be like, okay, they went through the station. And it also helps us get an accounting of recreational harvest, which we've never had before. And and it's there's there's quite a quite a bit of oysters that come out recreationally that we just didn't have a good good idea about. Which also could affect your your data that you're using to manage. Yep, and we actually use we convert that hundred oysters, it's about 0.6 of an Alabama sack, a current Alabama sack. So we go ahead and convert those to Alabama sacks, and we include them with what's harvested off those reefs as as they should be, because it's oysters. They don't those oysters don't know if they're harvested commercially or reparationally. They're just gone. So um and they contribute to what what comes off that reef.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so so to so then to to that point you were saying what used to be?
SPEAKER_01So the what used to be a harvester could go out, they didn't have to stop at a check station, they go out, they did have to have tags, which they bought they bought a handful at the office and just kept them in their glove box. They still had to tag them and and write down which which areas. They go out and harvest, and then they would take a half a sack home for themselves that they didn't tag. It was outside of outside of their commercial harvest, which all needed needed certain the commercial tags on there. And so they'd all be able to take their their their sack or their sack and a half home, and that was for their family and things like that. And it could happen on the weekend. There wasn't any it was right now. Our harvest is is really Monday through Friday, and then the the weekends the reefs are closed back in the day. They were open all year long, they were open all week long, including Saturday and Sunday, any holidays, whatever. And so so they had a greater access to to get the recreational oysters. They just got them while they were while they were harvesting commercially. They'd be able to take them home and they got what they want. Now, if you wanted to get your um a sack of oysters, uh if you want to do them recreationally and you're a commercial harvester, you can't have them on the vessel or vehicle at the same time. You can go out and harvest, take care of all of your commercial stuff, take it to the dealer, get rid of those, and then you can go back out and harvest your hundred, or you can do it the other way around and do your do your uh hundred per person per day, take them home, then you go back out and do your commercial. And that's that's one way to to do that. The other way would be if they wanted one of their sacks that they harvested commercially, it has to go to a dealer. The dealer still has to cool it down, and then maybe they can get it back. Then it may it'd be if they could wheel and deal with that dealer to be like, can I have my sack back for for tomorrow? And that's all between a harvester and a dealer if if that sort of transaction would occur. They could say, Hey, I'll, you know, can I can I switch one out for you, you know, so I can have one of these cool ones today and take it back home. That that could happen too. But a lot of people would would harvest the choice oysters for the ones they're taking home to their their house, you know, the what whatever size is their favorite, you know. Sure. That's that's a source of uh different opinions on the best size for oysters. But yeah, it's something that they haven't been very happy about since we started doing the oyster management stations. You know, they're they're constrained to Monday through Friday. They can't just automatically take something home with them and they've got to make two trips if they want to do their commer their their um recreational harvest.
SPEAKER_00So what is the what is the driver behind doing it differently now? Why is that done that way? Why I know that's got to be a question that they're asking.
SPEAKER_01For uh why it's a Monday through Friday and so so the the the consumer portion of that, if it's harvested commercially, ADPH, and uh it's it's driven by the the national shellfish sanitation guidance document that pretty much all the states follow, it's gotta go to that dealer, it's gotta get cooled down before it's sold to a sold to anyone to consume.
SPEAKER_00Well what I'm saying is why recreationally now you're you're under those same guidelines, right?
SPEAKER_01Yep. So the recreationally they've they've been able to harvest that, but they're they're constrained, they're constrained within the within the reef because we still need an accounting for that. If somebody just went off their pier and got their oysters, they would take them home, probably eat them, nobody would know anything about it. But if they wanted to harvest recreationally uh according to what we need them to do, so we can also account for that recreational harvest, they still have to make make their they don't have to check in, but they have to make one pass at the at the oyster management station.
SPEAKER_00Which is open Monday to Friday, which is why you have to do it then because you've got to go to that station. That's right.
SPEAKER_01They're not open on the weekends, therefore, and we've actually tried to have for several years we tried to open up on Saturdays, and the reason behind that is a lot of fisheries are using are losing their young folks. You know, they're in school all day or they don't have interest or or any number of things. You know, they're just they're not they're not interested in what mom and dad did or their grandpa did or whatever. And so we we opened up for several years. We tried it for the first four Saturdays of the the season just to see what kind of participation. And we were aiming for people to bring their kids out to learn how to do it, to see if there's interest in it. You know, we weren't requiring anything besides just allowing you know that extra Saturday, something where where kids weren't in school, they could they could they could try their hand at it and see if they wanted to do that, maybe build some some interest in it for the next generation of harvesters. Because it's dwind it's dwindling. You know, it's uh the the you'll have a few new folks in here and there, and and but it's you don't you don't see a lot of young guys get into it.
SPEAKER_00And how much of that is the changing in the culture and how much of it is it's harder and harder to make a living at it?
SPEAKER_01I think it's it's it's a bit of both. It's a bit of both. So they're not as plentiful, you know, folks used to bring 20, 20 bushels of oysters in. That's you you talk to some of the older gentlemen and you know they talk about the heydays where they would I brought 20 sacks in or 40 sacks in in a day and brought it up to the brought it up to the um canning folks or whatever. Um of course those facilities aren't there anymore. But but they just don't we can't sustain that that type of harvest anymore, you know. And so maybe in maybe if we can get our our reefs back up to historical levels, we can we can open things up more and things like that. But but I think that the it's it's really important for our industry to have that accountability. And I know the oyster catchers sometimes argue with a with a closure and things like that, but the majority of them do see how how it's helped. Not every not all of them. A lot of the older gentlemen are the ones that really they they they are far thinking, they think ahead, and just like we we've got to be careful, guys. You can't just take everything. And these are our our our experienced ones. Some of the younger ones, they just kind of sometimes see, hey, I can I can I can make five hundred dollars today and I you know and I don't have to go, I can maybe do it in one one day, and I've got my money for the week or whatever, you know, and and they're not really thinking about long term long term. And so and I appreciate those guys that I can I can sit and talk about long term. So I've got the conversations that I have with some of these guys, they they fall into categories. There's the ones where we're sitting and talking, we're not always agreeing on everything, but sitting and talking and have a conversation about what needs to be done and what what we think needs to be done. And then there's the guys that just kind of tell you what you're doing wrong, and they don't let you they don't let you answer and they tell you all there's some conspiracy theories and all that sort of stuff. And it's just you can't you can't have a good conversation, it's not productive, it just it's you're just you know trying to to be polite and all that. So but I really appreciate those guys that I can sit down and talk to.
SPEAKER_00And and that group, you know, you don't you you said you don't always agree. They've got their ideas about what should be done, you've got your ideas about what should be done. How often do you or do you ever and I'm I'm I'm I'm gonna I'm trying to word this in a way that is open-ended so it it provides a means for for an opportunity to to to elaborate on it, but hadn't thought of that. That's a good idea. Let me let me consider that, let me look into that. Let me I mean d do you do you have those kinds of ideas that come from that community that we never thought of that. Let's let's let's let's investigate that and see how that'll work.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh we we do. We definitely do. A good example of that is our the majority of the culture that we're using these days to restore is uh limestone. We've used 57 limestone, that's the you know, about dime to quarter size. That was kind of historically what we would put down if we were putting down limestone, but we've actually gone up a size.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01We've gone up to uh number four limestone and just as about the size of a plum. It's actually about the size of a of a three-inch oyster.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's why it's pretty close to their shale. Yeah, so so and what and that was suggested by folks in our oyster community. And they're sometimes they'll complain about having to harvest rock is a little heavier or whatever. But but what it does is they have to knock that off. They can't just put that straight into their bag and take it to the dealer because the dealer pays for their oysters by weight. And so if they're getting a bunch of rock instead of oysters, they're gonna put a stop to it really quick. So they have to knock it off, and that culture has to stay in the water. They don't take it with them. And so a planting that you do with with number four limestone is there's some dissolution of the material, but it'll last 15, 10 to 15 years and still be available for settlement as long as as long as there's no um hasn't been covered over by s by any s sediments. Sure. Um oyster shell, you might get three years out of an oyster shell if you put it in there. It gets all crumbly and is it it's just a softer material. It's perfectly good for settlement, but if you're not having much settlement on it, it would just it'll you know it it deteriorates really quick. So the number four limestone lasts a long time, they have to leave it. It's something that persists out there and and will be there for at least 10 to 15 years uh doing its job of of catching that larvae and and being a substrate for that to form. And uh so far we've had really good good luck with that.
SPEAKER_00And that came from oyster industry. And and so when you do things like that, how I mean I'm I'm I'm hoping that what they see is guys, we're partners in this. Um we're we're looking for your ideas. We're looking to what because that what we all want is for the the oyster population to recover. We not we're not we're not doing this to make your lives harder, and and we want, in fact, to make your lives easier. Yes. But you've gotta you've got to work with us, you've got to help us get there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's it's neat to talk to these guys. They'll have some ideas, they have a lifetime of observations. Yeah. And sometimes they they can't explain what happened there. And that's it's neat when you can kind of chit-chat with them and and figure out something. Uh a great example of that. I was talking to uh an oyster harvester, and he said, I know they're once they settle, they can't move, but I've seen them in Heron Bay where I'm I'm nipping at them. Uh nips are just small, small tongs, uh usually eight-inch uh tong heads, uh ricks. And then all of a sudden the weather will change and then they bury up. You say that they buried themselves. Now clams, they can bury themselves. They got that tongue they can push through the sediment and move through their um scallops, they can open and close their valve and kind of swim a little ways away. But oysters, once they're attached, they're attached. So we start to it's like that that doesn't make any sense to me, man, because they can't. It's like, I know, it doesn't make any sense, but they totally disappeared and we start talking about it. It's just like, you know what probably happened? So the the weather changed, so there's something with the pressure, and they animals they can sense all kinds of stuff coming through. Maybe a storm's coming through, and and inherently they they do that so they don't get a whole lot of sediment tied up in their gills or anything. I'm just kind of speculating at that point. Just but they stop, they st they stop filtering. Right. And they are spitting water when they're filtering, that's all part of it. And when they spit water, they're keeping the sediment flowing around them. And if they all close up and they stop spitting, all the sediment that's heavy enough to to settle down just settles and covers them on top. And we're talking about that, and it's just like, yeah, that sediment just covers. They didn't bury themselves in. And there's all right, that makes a lot of sense. And and I I just love those those interactions and those conversations. It's like you have a real observation and you have real information. And we're trying to figure out, you know, what why it turned out the the the way you did. They have real observations as to where they've seen oysters grow and and what they think an oyster needs and where they think they grow best and all of that. And we we're we're getting to the point where we're we're doing having more of those conversations and trying to make sure that you know it it's y'all oyster reef. You can have some say as to uh and and ideas are are valued as to where things go, you know. If there's something so every time every once in a while you get something totally off the wall and you gotta be like, no, that's not gonna, we're not putting it there. But but but for the most part, you know, these these guys do have real experience on the water.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But there's a what you guys are doing is you're you're you're finding that uh I'm thinking like a you know a Venn diagram where you have the intersection. You've got the intersection between theoretical and practical knowledge. And where that lives, the bigger you can make that area where those two circles intersect, the better off you are. That's the the more common ground you find that way.
SPEAKER_01Right. And I think we're all gonna be better for it. Exactly. You know, we're not always gonna be, oh, that's management, and they're trying to do something that we don't like, and this is the harvesters or the the industry and they're trying to do something that management doesn't like. I I think I we're we're having good success so far in in communication and and trying to work towards the same goals.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So so and and and and we've gone way beyond what I thought we would go in terms of time, and we've still I've still got questions, but I don't want to keep taking up too much of your time, but just briefly, if you could describe, you know, how the the commercial farms fit into this.
SPEAKER_01All right. So historically, we've had private beds. And so it's one of those older laws that allows people on waterfront property to have a uh private bed 1800 feet from their and it's it's written in the code of Alabama, they can have 1800 feet to plant and gather oysters, so they can have the oyster resources within that. And the the caveats to that is they're they're they can't take anything from the public. So I'm one of the I have to go and survey the bottoms, it's uh I call it examination of the bottom. I'm looking for existing oyster resources. If I find existing oyster resources of a certain amount or density, they can't do what they want to do, they can't have private use of those. But if there's really nothing there, and anything they put in there is what they've provided and worked on, and the products that come out are stuff that they've started, and there might be some natural settlement too, and that's okay. But then they can they can do that. So historically that's all been planting and gathering oysters on the bottom. And what I just talked about is is really most of what they needed to do. They they needed also to provide us a map, they're in a file, and then they can do what they want to do. These days with the Australian Long Line and these things where you put in anchors and poles and lines and stuff like that. So now you got infrastructure and you have the possibility of interfering with waterway traffic or on a seagrass bed or something like that. Um so they actually have to deal with the Corps of Engineers and they do a joint permit between the Corps of Engineers and Alabama Department of Environmental Management. And so they work together to make sure the things you put are put in are okay to be there. And through that is kind of a conglomeration of all the blessings of all the agencies. So they get our letter of that, you know, we've done the examination at the bottom and they provided anything, everything for us. Marine police will look at it, the archaeological surveys, the the uh they'll they'll make sure that there's not a it but they they basically have the blessing from everyone, then they get their permit, and then they can they can do what they need to. They go through state lands, um, they might have to establish an easement fee. There's there's a lot, and I'm not gonna go all the way down that way, but but that's crazy how much it's gotten better, but it's not perfect yet going through all the permitting. So marine resources part of it is actually pretty pretty simple, but it is the first thing, the the first part of it. And then everybody you will take will write them a little letter that says, Oh, you've been approved to plant and gather oysters on bottom. You can use this letter to for any other agencies, any other permitting if you want to try off bottom or whatever.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01And then uh, but it can get pretty back and forth with the different agencies.
SPEAKER_00Well, what I what I saw like when I was looking at you know the artificial reef stuff that that I was I saw like where they had these structures that they created that that you know for esteral type use, they remind me almost of like a a fondue fountain. It's progressively it's like stacked like a wedding cake, and it's it's progressively as you go down, it's bigger. And it it just basically looks like a a a circular pyramid that they that they have. And and so I mean you you would have multiple levels on that, I mean like four, five, six levels. It could be sitting on the bottom, but then it's stacked up above that that you would be potentially seating and having, you know, with your different levels of of production. How how does that work?
SPEAKER_01So generally around here people try to get them off the bottom. Okay just because of the the the drills will find them. They'll even crawl up the line and all the way down the line and find the baskets, and you still have to pull them off the baskets and things like that.
SPEAKER_00Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01Um but you have you know, they have workers that that'll do that. They're constantly going through the baskets, pulling in, um pulling out the the dead ones. A lot of extra infrastructure for these guys, um, a lot of extra hands on, a lot of extra things they need to do. So the so the the what they they charge is is a lot more than what you would charge for for something coming off the public reef. Doesn't mean they're not growing out of the same water or things like that. I I'm there's more overhead involved, though. Yeah, more overhead involved, and so of course they're gonna charge a little bit more, and their oysters will probably look remember I was talking about defouling, they'll look a little bit prettier on the plate. Um but they do put a lot into it to do that, and and they to you know make a profit, they have to charge, you know, sure for that. And people will pay for that though, because they you know they they want a nice product like that. But it's it's it's been an interesting ride trying to, as as aquaculture has increased in Alabama, we've had to revisit some of the laws that were just associated with the public harvest. So one of the things that they do, they have to take them out of the baskets when they're getting too big and separate them out so they don't crowd themselves in in the basket. They uh a crowded oyster is a weird-looking oyster, you know, it's shaped funny, and that's not what they want. Uh and sometimes they'll actually take them out, we call oyster cannon, they'll they'll tumble them and it'll help keep them clean and and they can grate them out and get their sizes perfect, and and then they repackage them and put them back in the water. But that first time you take them out of the water, we had to figure out a way because because officially that's a harvest on the old law, you know, the the way that's done. You have to come up with something that covers this thing that they want to do and actually kind of need to do to to make it worthwhile. You can't just you have to evolve your your your laws as you go along to make sure it fits their needs, as long as the consumer is still protected and and they're able to make a profit and all of that sort of stuff. And so it's it's been it it's been interesting to see how it evolves and what different things we need to do. And in that case, you're you're always having a dialogue with with the aquaculture guys and saying, well, what are you wanting to do? What do you need to do? Well, let's see if we got anything we gotta change or or add to or have something specifically for aquaculture.
SPEAKER_00And and I would presume that with aquaculture it's no different from then with agriculture, is you have techniques and equipment that changes over time, that's going to change what the needs of the laws are at that point.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, absolutely. And they so I guess for the for the health department thing to to protect consumers when they have these inter intermittent harvests, I guess, that they'll actually go back in. They have to remain in the water for a prescribed amount of time to cleanse out any bacteria that they may have occurred. I want to definitely say that for consumers. The private guys are are mandated to keep them in the water for I think it's 14 days before they can harvest truly harvest them to go to the shops. And that's to make sure that anything that they've acquired while they were maybe at an elevated temperature during these processes, they have purged those those things. So bacteria, if there's some viral growth and stuff, all those things can be purged. The things that are not good, if you're in an area where there's heavy metals and stuff like that, those things kind of stay with the tissues. And that those are the areas that the health department closes down to harvest in the first place. So everything you can harvest here is in conditionally approved waters. Okay. And uh and they don't have those those heavy metal problems and pesticides and and all that sort of stuff. So that's part of the sanitary survey that they have to do.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um but but yeah, they're trying to trying to come up with they're coming up with new ideas of the ways to do it, and and we have to evolve with those as well. So always open an ear and see what's going on, and and if it fits into something that and and reasonably fits into something that we already have on the books, then they'll need to follow that if there's something that can be changed or a rig that can be put in there, or something that can we try to accommodate.
SPEAKER_00So Jason, I want to say thank you. Um I'm gonna go ahead and and uh because I I uh I try to be respectful of of people's time. We've been at this, I can't see this thing real clear, but it's uh going on two hours. I think that we've been here talking. And I don't know how it seemed to you, it hasn't seemed like that to me because this has been fascinating for me, because I knew nothing. I knew, you know, next to nothing about this uh coming in. I mean, what I've been able to glean just in the in coming down here doing the podcast and then uh you know, things around looking on the internet and those kinds of of things, but you know, people who have been involved in the uh in the industry for all their lives have been trying to find some people, some actual oyster men to talk to. Those guys are busy, you know. Imagine imagine that they're actually trying to make a living. So uh, you know, haven't been able to to do that. And and so I really, really, really appreciate your time. I want to uh again mention that been talking to Jason Herman at the Alabama Marine Resources, that's part of the Alabama Conservation and Natural Resources. And we've been talking for a long time now about the oyster industry, the history of the oyster industry and its management and been very illuminating. You know, if you go to the restaurant and you order oysters on the half shell or you get fried oysters, whatever it is that you get, there's a lot that goes into ensuring that, number one, that those resources are well managed so that you can continue having those in the future, number one, but also making sure that what you have is safe to eat. And so that's it, that's really important. And of course, you know, what's come out of this conversation is you know just how much things impact that that you maybe didn't think about before, you know, when they open the dam up in Gunnersville, eventually it impacts things down here in the Gulf. And and that's maybe not something that you would have thought about before. So thank you so much for your time and looking forward to sharing this with subscribers for Dauphin Island Diaries. That's gonna do it for today, and hope you guys enjoy this.