Mike and Nick continue their journey through Ingmar Bergman's filmography.
Whether it's through the intricate portrayal of complex women or the stark representation of gender dynamics, Bergman's films invite us intimate invitations into the characters' minds and pasts.
Despite being known as a serious filmmaker, both in tone and narrative, it's not all heavy. Waiting Women leaves room for laughter leading to a light debate whether Bergman's touches of humor qualify his work as comedy.
Mike and Nick continue their journey through Ingmar Bergman's filmography.
Whether it's through the intricate portrayal of complex women or the stark representation of gender dynamics, Bergman's films invite us intimate invitations into the characters' minds and pasts.
Despite being known as a serious filmmaker, both in tone and narrative, it's not all heavy. Waiting Women leaves room for laughter leading to a light debate whether Bergman's touches of humor qualify his work as comedy.
Hello and good evening. Welcome to another fine episode of Filmversation. As always, I am one half of the show, mike, and with us today is the other half of the show, nick.
Speaker 2:Hey there and thanks for joining us, and we're here for another dive into my favorite director Bergman. Ingmar Bergman, this is your favorite director.
Speaker 1:You know, I was actually thinking about this the other day. Nick Is Bergman, your favorite director 100%?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's no question. Is Bergman your favorite director? A hundred percent, yeah, there's no question. I've seen enough movies now where I'm pretty confident that you know as far as is just, there's some it doesn't. If you think about like star ratings, for how you might rate movies, like no matter what star rating, I'm giving a Bergman film almost always, I think, for the exception to Ship to India. There's something there that's very comforting to me, that's a very personal resonance that I don't find, uh, as at least as consistent, um, from other directors so those stars have a lot of weight, you would say.
Speaker 1:Would you say those stars are stars here than than other reviews?
Speaker 2:I mean, like the three stars are stronger three stars, if you're example I think for me, if you you're talking about what my rating system works, I think once you get to three and a half stars and above, I would say I take that a lot more seriously, especially four and above, because I have an adjective basically associated with every star rating and so once you hit four, for me, me, you're into greatness territory, um, and then four and a half would be probably just amazing. And then five is perfect. And five is like, for me, is is almost beyond technical savviness or, uh, just moviness, and there's usually like something really personal to me that's like really resonating, like, as I would say, uh, sometimes it's like it feels like so aggressively, my shit, um sometimes.
Speaker 1:No, that makes sense. Well, I'm glad, uh, I'm glad that bergman is so high, because we uh have still plenty more movies of his to watch. This guy made a lot of movies. Uh, I feel like that is something that I didn't know about bergman. Going into this was like just how many, how prolific the guy was, uh, especially before we're getting to like his quote-unquote imperial phase with um, you know, uh, once we really get in to start, uh, start getting into the classics like seven seal, wild strawberries and stuff like that, which we still have not hit so I wanted to.
Speaker 2:I mean, we, before the show, you and I both said this is probably like a lighter episode, um, and so I thought you know I was looking at uh bergman's filmography before we were recording, and so I'm looking exactly where we are at waiting women, 1952, and the next film is summer with monica, which I've already seen, and so I'm, personally speaking, I'm I'm kind of uh bubbling with excitement, I think, because summer with monica, now that I've seen waiting women and we'll talk about it, but this is like the we're jumping off the the diving board at with summer with monica, in my opinion, and and so I was also wondering I know, I think you probably-.
Speaker 1:Is this like a good last respite before we really get into it?
Speaker 2:That's how I'm feeling because I've seen many other films, almost all of the major ones that come after this one, so Sawdust and Tinsel Wild Strawberries. So I was wondering, but I did want to ask you quickly, um, which are the big ones moving forward now, because I know we both love seventh seal, but uh, and persona, but what are the some of the other ones that you have seen um in the future?
Speaker 1:uh, I've seen wild strawberries. Um gosh, I mean, I'm like thinking about it, is it? Wild strawberries persona and seventh seal uh, that might be it, and I've obviously seen hour of the wolf oh yeah, that's right which we saw out of out of sequence um, but yeah, that okay, so I haven't seen cries and whispers. I haven't seen summer with monica um. I haven't seen the the what's the not marriage story, but his oh, it seems from a marriage yeah, seems from marriage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I haven't seen that okay, so there's, there's still so many for you, um, because I've seen all those and it's, it's. I'm like I'm. That's why I'm also bubbling with excitement too, because I think that it's funny, because, as much as I love talking about bergman and I'll talk about any of his I'm like I'm. That's why I'm also bubbling with excitement too, because I think that it's funny because, as much as I love talking about Bergman and I'll, I'll talk about any of his movies all day long, as we've talked about his, his previous ones. But I think we're really finally going to get to the movies that are maybe more more filmversation-y, I think, in a sense like just there's so much.
Speaker 1:I mean it sounds like we're getting to the movies of like why you wanted to do this in the first place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's interesting because I had no idea what to expect with Bergman's early period.
Speaker 1:I had not seen any of them, so you and I had watched them as we sort of like close the book on it. I am glad we saw them, like they're not all masterpieces, but they've all been good and I think like good to great. Uh, some of some of them are, um, but they're all like worthwhile movies like I. I um it's kind of a shame that they've been like some of these movies in particular seem to be so neglected, um, like there isn't really a lot of love out there for for like I don't know, like there should be more out there for like thirst, I think you know, um summer interlude maybe does get some love, but I thought that was really cool.
Speaker 2:Um, I like this movie you know, I, I think, I think, and we'll probably palpably appreciate it as we get into the movies like Seventh Seal and stuff like that. But I think for me, as I'm thinking because when I was thinking about what I was going to rate Waiting Women, I was going through a lot of like internal debates I'm like, well, you know, there's a lens to be had for someone like Bergman where it's just like, okay, you take something like uh, thirst, uh, or to joy, and you're like, okay, how does that compare to wild strawberries, seventh seal, like the distance there feels so vast. That's like, okay, you're absolutely right. Like I loved, I enjoyed all the movies, like I, I, there's something there for me in every Bergman movie, um, but nonetheless, like I can also like understand, like, yeah, I think, um, there's a movie that I can't wait to talk to you about, autumn Sonata, which, um, the, the dialogue in that movie is so lacerating and it's just like you contrast that with what we've seen before and it sounds like a uh an Ozu title.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:It is, yeah, with the seasonal title. Similars, yes, but speaking of so jumping into Waiting Women, I think this is a good entry point, because Waiting Women, one of the first things that it does is it well, it introduces the characters all very quickly. It's these women that are waiting for their husbands and they're having a conversation.
Speaker 1:I love like this is definitely a good time, like this is what you get with the, with the movie.
Speaker 2:Movie's called waiting women and it's about three women waiting yeah, and there is something I I didn't get this while watching it. It's only through, like the descriptions, but I guess all the men that the women are waiting for they're all brothers, so so they're all married to brothers. I didn't really get that from the film, but that's also part of it. But almost immediately we have one woman who's talking about her marriage and basically how lifeless and empty it is. And there's a line towards the end of her little monologue about oh, I can't, I can't. I think she says something like I can't stab his eyes out and make him cry, or something like that. Um, and it's just like and this is right in the beginning of the movie and I'm, and I it's like another bergman light bulb for me. It's like this is why I love these movies, like right off the bat we're already getting into like marital trauma yeah, it is like this movie is like um, lacerating, I would say.
Speaker 1:The dialogue is at times and like just kind of like the relationships between the people, like they're it. On the one hand it can feel very like cold, I I feel like some of the dynamics between the characters, but on the other hand it does seem like mature in a way, like there's like uh, I don't know like a world weariness to some of the characters, but like I don't know, there's some things that they will say. I'm thinking particularly of the last sequence. So this movie is three women waiting and each uh woman tells her like backstory it's. It reminds me nick of. I kept thinking about the batman animated series episode almost got him. Uh, does this ring a bell to you?
Speaker 2:yes, where they all exchange stories about how they almost got Batman.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah All the bad guys are at the poker table talking about how they almost got Batman and it's like one by one they're telling their flashback backstory.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this one. If this was the Bergman animated episode, it would. I think it would be called something like almost got caught because it's all about infidelity. So it's all about infidelity, so it's all about affairs. Yeah, um it is.
Speaker 1:It's.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like here's how I almost got away with, uh, infidelity and no consequences, but there were consequences, um, but like the, the last, uh, the last story where it's just like a couple basically trapped in an elevator and it's like the classic, like they're the older couple I mean, they're not old, but they're the oldest of these characters, I think yeah, middle age and the. You just see enough of their marriage to know like they're like a night out and they're just being snippy at each other, like it doesn't seem like there's much love between them and as they're going home they are in an elevator. That actually like a surprisingly harrowing sequence for a Bergman movie. The elevator like falls and they don't die or anything, they're, they're uninjured, but then the elevator gets stuck and it's a very harrowing, exciting thing and they're kind of like brought closer together in like a moment of intimacy because of the, the crazy circumstances and stuff. But there's a lot of like casual, like what have you ever like cheated on me? And she's like yeah, of course I have have like it.
Speaker 2:It's very like cutting in that way yeah, well, that sequence, I mean, if we want to start with the last one, that one, I honestly think that is some of bergman's like funniest work, honestly, like the, the comedy I think was there's some physical sequence felt like he's stepping out of his comfort zone I thought so too, and it was cool that it was like all in this elevator and you have a very closed space for these characters to share and exchange their striking dialogue.
Speaker 2:Because, like you said, it's basically like what I took away from that conversation was it was the wife's way of getting the truth of the affair from her husband out but also still maintaining control. I think that was kind of like an overarching theme of the stories is how the woman maintained control of the situation. So in the first story I think it's worthwhile because they can sum up pretty much each story pretty quickly the first story is one wife who has an affair and admits it to her husband and then basically ends the story by saying now it's kind of like a mom-child relationship between the husband and wife.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like a classic, like he's like. He's been totally defeated because he's like a man-child in some ways.
Speaker 2:Then she kind of ends up being like the mom yeah, and in that, in that story, she has an affair and she kind of admits it to the husband with, uh, the person that she cheated with there in the room, and it's this confrontation and I think it taking away from that, that is the woman's way of controlling the situation, like taking control and asserting her agency in a way, and I think that's what happens in the first one, and in the second story it's about a woman who gets pregnant. She's not able to tell the man and or the man doesn't want to hear it, so he leaves her to hear it.
Speaker 1:Um, so he leaves her. So they kind of, yeah, the man is like isn't the man basically like this one was like a little fuzzy for me, but isn't isn't this one where the like?
Speaker 2:doesn't the man sort of say like before he, he obviously never finds out she's pregnant, but isn't there like a thing where he's basically like, well, we're gonna stop seeing each other, right, like, there's, yeah, that like that middle story um, it's the, the wife, and has an affair with one of the brothers, and he basically is confronted by his family because the father died and something along the lines of he needs to go to the funeral or something like that. Or if he doesn't do his family duty, he's going to get cut off from his funds because he's an artist and so he needs the money because he wants to do his art. So he leaves to go back home and that's basically the separation or end of the relationship between the woman and the man. But she's still pregnant and so she doesn't end up telling him and so it's basically and this is what I took away from the overarching theme of control is she kind of?
Speaker 2:She, in one hand, did have a time to tell him about the pregnancy, but she chose not to. And I think there is this kind of sense of like ownership is like she made the choice, this was her choice. I think that's what the thing is trying to like. Emphasize is like she made this choice to have the baby on her own. The thing is trying to like emphasize is like she made this choice to have the baby on her own, and I think that's why they have the. There's this one young female character in the present timeline who makes some quips during the stories and she's like, oh, you know, um, you guys, she says something against her and I think that's another way of the movie kind of bolstering that this was her uh choice, so to speak. So it's all all about these women navigating the different circumstances of affairs and trying to kind of maintain some type of control or agency. I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's an interesting angle to this and that I think addresses for me the biggest problem I had with this movie, which I did like this movie, but there's something about it to me. It's just and maybe this is like a me problem but it felt like insubstantial or like there wasn't. I I didn't think of any sort of like thing that was really connecting these like I enjoyed the three stories and everything like that, but it to me well, like I compared it to an episode of the Batman Animated Series. Right, it had that vibe a little bit of like a TV show, like a TV movie in a way, if that makes sense. That might sound meaner than I mean it to no, I think.
Speaker 1:Like it looks good and everything like that. That's not what I mean, but yeah, it didn't.
Speaker 2:I think it sounds like you're having the what I experienced with Summer Interlude you experienced with this movie, because to me. That's what I kind of took away from Summer Interlude. I'm like, oh, it's just a summer tryst of a movie, you don't have to take it so seriously someone dies in Summer Interlude. No one dies in here, they just get their hat rumpled yeah, that's true, and I think for some reason this one clicked not in a sense of like, because I honestly this is they shoot a dog nick in summer interlude.
Speaker 2:That's true yeah, I mean this one. There are there really feels like no stakes, I guess, in waiting woman, um, but I think for me this is a really good opportunity to like define that, that star rating nuance, like I think, yeah, I would probably put for me summer interlude and waiting women the same rating, but I enjoy waiting women a little bit more. I think that, um, there's not the stakes that I think you're kind of talking about, but at the same time there is this gravity and uh, graveness I think that each character walks with. Now, I don't think the movie does a good job really painting the pictures or the consequences in like the grand scheme of things, because at the end of the day, this, this, they're all talking in a place that presumably, like this is a happy place, right, and when all the husbands come home it's a happy event.
Speaker 1:So it's almost like this is just like in the past and there's no, there's no, um, uh, connective tissue from the past, trauma to the present and and I I will say, like it is not a movie where the ending like does some kind of reveal or anything like I mean there is.
Speaker 2:I guess what I mean?
Speaker 1:the abrupt cut that was so do you did it like I was gonna, so I was gonna say this is like the worst ending in a burg like this has to be the one of the worst endings to a movie I just ran out of film, yeah it 100, like it's an ending where I'm like did I just like sit on the remote? Or something like what you know what happened?
Speaker 2:I remember there was a period of time when I was watching movies, uh, and I would just randomly get these thoughts I'm like what if the movie just ended? Here, randomly, what would I think? This feels like one of those moments where I would be like what if the movie just ended? It's really like it's just a cut, it's just so abrupt.
Speaker 1:It's very unremarkable. Yeah, it doesn't feel like an intentional odd ending. It feels like it has like. It feels like they. It has the vibe of like they ran out of film. Yeah, you're right, that's a funny way of putting it like. Or I was thinking of. Was it shipped to india the, the first movie that bergman got to play. It can remember that story. We found where when they set it up for the screening. It was like the disastrous screening where the reels were out of order.
Speaker 2:Was that crisis? He was like.
Speaker 1:Oh, maybe it was crisis. It was one of his first movies. I think it was shipped India, though, like, I think it was like his second movie, but it'd be. Yeah, there's the story of him like banging on the door to like the projectionist being like crying like no, like no, that's out, it's wrong that this, that's like did they did the criterion box set get the wrong like the film in the wrong order in this movie? Yeah, it was weird, it's like really, it was like I had to like look at, uh like the summary of the movie to be like what happened at least.
Speaker 2:At least put a dangle like finn or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, put a fin or like yeah, credit.
Speaker 2:There's no credits either. That's the thing. That's the funny thing about it. Yeah, it's just.
Speaker 1:There's no credits in the beginning are there? We don't get any credits in this. I don't think.
Speaker 2:No, we do Remember. It's actually a really beautiful like little image of three women, like a woodcut or something like that, and the title, the credits, are rolling over the image of the. It's like an oval with women. It's pretty cool, it looks good. But, yeah, the ending is just so. There is this little arc that's introduced at the end and I think a word that's coming to me, the more you're talking about kind of how I don't know, empty this maybe might be feeling is like this movie does feel superfluous. I think almost like in terms of, uh, all the stuff that we've watched before, like there is, I guess, like I don't know. The more as we're talking about it's like this movie feels like a balloon, uh, like everything is like all the movies that we watched previously are like grounded in the earth and in the sea and stuff like that. And then this movie is like it ends and it's just like, oh, we're floating away and that's happy thing, so, um, yeah, it's totally like it's just a weird.
Speaker 1:It's. I mean it's kind of something cool about it because it's it's. You know infidelity is not a light subject matter, right. I mean it's like it can be fun, like there's a lot of comedies involving infidelity, but the way it's handled in this is a little more grounded and like like man, this does suck, but you know it's dealing with heavy topics, but it does feel very airy and light and a little, a little carefree.
Speaker 1:I think that might be because there's not really um which I'm not saying this is necessarily a problem but there's just not really like a a strong thematic, like connective tissue, with there's not like a through line, I think with the three stories where, like, they're like leading up to something or there's some like uh, threat looming in the background or you know anything looming in the background or you know anything looming in the background really, other than the guys are going to show up and they're going to see them.
Speaker 2:I guess I see what you're saying. I think the connective tissue of like each woman trying to like, navigate and control the situation is enough for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but at the same time, connective tissue is the wrong wrong word there.
Speaker 2:As I'm thinking about it, I have to. I'm of two minds here with bergman and I. When I first, when the movie first ended, I really applauded this movie because, um, it's the first bergman movie, I think. That is, uh, almost the. The male characters are almost faceless in this movie. Um, I think that, for the exception of maybe they're're all kind of losers.
Speaker 2:Well they're all losers and their presences are either negligible or weak. So, for example, like in the first story, the man who she cheats on with I think this is an empty character almost, and really the meat of it is on the husband who ends up like threatening to kill himself and goes kind of and becomes like meek. And then in the second story this is a man that basically kind of just disappeared. And in the third story, the woman I think is the one that's kind of controlling the dialogue because and it's really it's funny in the way that she begins it because like, oh yeah, you had shaving cream in your ear the whole night.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're leaving some event and some fancy event where he was interacting with some big wigs and stuff and they're snipping at each other and she's just like, by the way, you've had shaving cream in your ear the whole night and he's like what?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just like the prince was looking in your ear the whole night, so, and he's like what? Yeah, it's just like. It's very like the prince was looking at your ear the whole night, and then he's like oh, no wonder he was so absent-minded yeah, he was like.
Speaker 1:I thought he was just like a weirdo, that he was no, dang it, I was the weirdo it's very like it's very different than the kind of interactions we're used to seeing in a bergman movie, like it is snippy but light heart. It reminded me of like so this movie is 1952. It reminded me a bit of like other um hollywood movies from the 50s, like some of the um, like studio comedies and stuff, the way there'd be like that, like spirited back and forth. I think this maybe is just a little bit more cutting than those movies.
Speaker 1:Would the like a hollywood movie would get like I don't know, I'm sure there were, but I can't think of like hollywood movies where they're being like really explicit about like affairs and stuff like that. More like double entendres I think would be the the thing at the time. But here they're like pretty flat out, like well, I got you know, like I'm pregnant, uh, with my person I'm not married to, and like oh, they're gonna you know I think we're talking about these issues, yeah, in terms of if you compare them to like hollywood 50s movies.
Speaker 2:I think, uh, one thing that bergman's movies have done almost from the beginning is uh be very blunt and forward about issues like like infidelity and abortion and stuff like that. Like, really, I don't think bergman, he never pulls punches, I guess is what I would say like in terms of how he addresses issues like that.
Speaker 1:Um, but I I'm curious like why, why he, at this period, like what shifted him to focusing so much on women's stories? And I'm wondering, like I was thinking about this, and one of my, one of my theories here is that this I, I maybe in his mind, focusing on women was allowing him to get into subjects that he's familiar with, like intimacy and and all you know, affairs and that kind of thing, but from like a different angle and that might be like more interesting to him as a storyteller to like explore these themes from a different perspective. I don't know, that's just something I was thinking about watching this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have my own theory. I really think that and this is another reason why I've loved watching these early Bergman movies is because I'm of the opinion that many of Bergman's movies are and I guess this isn't unique to Bergman but very extensions of himself. In some ways he builds himself into these characters and their flaws and what they're dealing with, and I think the reason that Bergman resonates with me so much and so consistently is because some of the things that Bergman channels from himself is his own ugliness, and I think this is the thing that really has become more clear to me as we've watched more of these movies is, I think, bergman. I think he recognizes the ugliness of himself with some respects and how the women on on the other step, the receiving end of him basically. And I think, and because he's been, he was married many times and there's been, you know, we know about some conflicts and yeah, surprise, surprise, surprise.
Speaker 1:I think that this man has had and been been on both ends of affairs before.
Speaker 2:I think it's fair to assume and I think this is the type of like facing your own demons, stuff that a filmmaker can do, and I think that Bergman does that, and I think that and this is just now I'm just going into guessing territory or making you know my own theory- yeah, this is definitely like armchair psychology stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like I think I don't know, I think theory, but yeah, it's just definitely like armchair psychology stuff. Yeah, it's like I think, I don't know. It's I think bergman, the filmmaking kind of invites that I think?
Speaker 2:I think so too, especially because I don't know for me, when I hear some of the dialogue in in bergman's movies, I'm like how can I mean? At one hand it is made up, but it's like so, it's so cutting, like you said, um, and I think it's.
Speaker 2:It's definitely like the vibe of like I I can imagine just being bergman's girlfriend or wife at any various point and watching his movies and just like turning around, being like I, one eyebrow raised while watching, you know, the movie with him, kind of thing yeah, I, I still think about if I remember correctly, it's into joy uh the movie where, um, the composer is having an affair, so he has his, his wife, and he's having an affair and he's in bed and his wife is changing and and he's looking at her and she's like don't look at me. I, I feel like you're comparing, and yeah, that is like I don't know. That is uh the height. That scene was cold, it was, and it's like's like my TV frosted up when that scene happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my thermometer dropped. That kind of stuff, those dialogues in these movies, really like. They're so striking and they have such nuggets of truth. I think in feeling like you've lived this situation or been involved, observed it, whatever, like you've lived this situation or been involved, observed it whatever, like you know this experience and I think that uh bergman channels this kind of um experience that he knows I'm just guessing, based on his, the way he can craft this that he knows very well yeah, yeah, it's interesting something too.
Speaker 1:I was like thinking this, this movie it is very specific to this movie, but I think you could apply it to Bergman in general too is like man, what if someone back then had just sat down and explained to him what polyamory means?
Speaker 1:Because I think maybe that would have solved a lot of. You know, if they just got the ground rules up front, I think everyone would be a lot happier, because at the end of the day, it almost feels like a lot of these people are not devastated so much by the. The betrayal seems like the problem with the affair here like there's, like it is like that stereotypical, like European sentiment, I think, where they kind of don't really care about each other, like having sex with other people. It's more like this is this is the betrayal? Is the problem here the fact that you're like disgracing me or like lying to me, that that is the, that's the real source of the pain here. But yeah, like hey, if you want to just like be open about it. You know, maybe everyone can just be happy and you know it's funny, Um, I think.
Speaker 2:um, as you're talking about it, I'm like, okay, well, if Bergman adopts, adopts Paul or Amory mindset, all of a sudden we're just going to get movies more in the vein of like passages.
Speaker 1:Um, where he's just like horrifically, like ruining uh, instead of jumping from house to house and having two homes of misery.
Speaker 2:It's just one home with three miserable people yeah, yeah, you're right.
Speaker 1:I mean he probably would find a way to stay miserable, uh, but yeah, it's just something I was thinking of, um, just obviously like a very modern sensibility or contemporary sensibility to like fix the problem back then. But it seemed like that's what everyone wanted in this movie anyway. Like I was like man, I think a lot of you would be a lot happier if you just you know, that's another thing.
Speaker 2:I think that Waiting Women does. That is a little different. Is it kind of gives the women the agency in terms of the infidelity I think predominantly infidelity, especially when it's more justified or, I would say, normalized. It's coming from the man. The man is doing the cheating and he's exemplified in the last story. I think the way that even the woman acts to this news of the affair is revealing about that kind of sentiment. It's like, oh well, the man is just going to do it, the man is just going to do it. But here in this movie I think that it does give agency to females in the sense of like, well, females are doing, not that they're doing it too, but that there are dynamics to to infidelity, that if the woman is the one doing it, let's take a look at their identity and their experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm glad he did, nick, I'm glad he did. I'm like trying to think, like we've talked a lot about infidelity. With this, um, I'm trying to think like what, what I don't know, like what else is there? I'm struggling with this movie to like kind of latch on, to like why this sounds like way too harsh because I did like this movie. But part of me is like why? Like I am just curious, like why do you make this? Like what is what's going on here? Like what was he's? Because he's tackled infidelity before, yeah, um, and he's done it from a woman's perspective before well, you know, I think this movie is um in turn.
Speaker 2:Well, obviously, in the grand scheme of things, this is a very minor movie, I think, but, um, I think there's.
Speaker 2:There's some nice um, how would I say, like exercises in this movie, like, for example, I don't know if you caught this, but each movie features mirrors, um, and reflections, and I thought that was cool because it it's uh, a visual representation for what the movie is, which is just all these characters reflecting on the past, uh, and and anchoring kind of uh at least, or putting uh a common trait in each story, being the mirrors, uh, kind of, I think is self-referential in terms of like, we understand that this is just a reflection, and I think that goes back to the uh.
Speaker 2:What I was saying earlier is like I think the movie at to the uh. What I was saying earlier is like I think the movie, at the end of the movie, it's actually all undermined because there's no con like lasting consequences. It feels like um, and even the, even the very ending, the cut that we all laugh at, uh, even that feels like it's just two characters running away to do quote, unquote, what they think is forbidden, like that's and that's it. It's not even like yeah, it's just two characters running away to do quote unquote what they think is forbidden and that's it. It's not even like in a graduate situation where there's ambiguity or something like that. It's just like frivolity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, maybe there's, I think maybe this is like a little bit of his last gasp of the like melodrama era a bit, and there is like that, I don't know. These almost feel like each of these three stories could have been, uh, their own movies, like like in another world or another life. Like this would be like his like crisis era movie would be like one of these stories, like they all kind of feel like on that level a bit, um, which is something interesting about that, like him kind of like moving on from this era in his filmmaking where he is kind of doing these like similar uh themes and similar subject matters, um, I don't know, there there is like I I think there's also something to the.
Speaker 2:It's easy to take for granted, but the way that he is like so much of this is playing with time, with flashbacks oh, that's, that's another like actually criticism I have of this movie is in the second story, uh, bergman's organization of the flashbacks with the pregnant character uh was kind of confusing to me because um yeah, they she does, he, I.
Speaker 2:I really didn't like it when he did it this time, but he has a flashback within a flashback and I'm like dude, this is getting too confusing. Um, because then he could, and then he flashes back, back and forth within the origin within the first flashback and I'm like dude, I don't understand the order, because he's like he's practicing for persona. I I really did everybody I really did get confused and thought that she had an abortion.
Speaker 2:I thought that too, and so I'm like dude, what are you doing? Because he has this. Dude, what are you doing? That's what I was saying. I don't understand what story you're telling my guy. Come on, she's pregnant and then she flashed back to have an abortion. But it turns out she flashed back to when she found out she was pregnant. But it was just organized very clumsily, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:Well, they have a horror movie sting when they show that she's at a gynecologist's office, she's finding out she's pregnant, which she doesn't want to be pregnant, and that would be terrifying, I guess. But it does make it seem like it's going to be something more intense than just like you're pregnant.
Speaker 2:And then well, the other thing, they do this. I think one of my favorite scenes actually in this movie is when she does go to the place where she's going to get a delivery. She's like why are they all screaming? And it's just like a close-up of her and there's just women screaming in the background. It's just like it's like it feels like she's in an insane asylum yeah and yeah, I don't know, maybe that's kind of cool, though, maybe like did you get a kick out of?
Speaker 2:uh, when she goes to the uh hospital I'm presuming where she's going to give birth she brings her cat and the head nurse is like why did you bring this? She looks annoyed and she hands the cat to another nurse. She's like get this out of here. What are we doing?
Speaker 1:It's just a live animal running around during the operation. Yeah, that's her therapy kitten. What's?
Speaker 2:the problem. I thought it was funny. She just brings this kitten with her to give birth and then the nurse is like all annoyed, just like why? What are you doing with it is?
Speaker 1:totally like a emotional support cat, for sure, I mean, I get it. You didn't ever like what. What pain meds were they giving her back then?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, but well, they have the gas pretty accessible. It seems like she just kept oh, that's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's probably actually way intense, more intense than they give now.
Speaker 2:Probably.
Speaker 1:She's just huffing heroin. I bet back then.
Speaker 2:And that was the other thing related to the second story, because I think it's interesting in terms of the uh. Each story is related to how I feel about the greater story. I think the second story undermines the movie the most, but at the same, time so because I'm still very confused on. And so she gave birth. The man was not there. Somehow, the story goes where they reunited now and they're on this island together.
Speaker 1:They like reunite off screen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's very and I'm still confused, like there's still this idea that maybe the man coming to this island is their first time seeing each other again, like even maybe I don't think so.
Speaker 1:I think the implication is they like just off screen, like they've reconciled and they're back together so yeah, so it's still bad, like that's, like that's not so.
Speaker 2:That's what I have a problem with, because, again, it almost weird, it's messy, it undermines the, the gravity or the consequences that and I think that, like if you even go back one movie, if you think about summer, it's weird, it's messy, it undermines the gravity or the consequences. And I think that if you even go back one movie, if you think about Summer Interlude, that movie really did such a great job about bringing the past to the present and linking consequences.
Speaker 1:You had the creepy uncle that returned and the boyfriend is dead. He doesn't come back to life at the end of the movie Right?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's not like.
Speaker 1:This is like the dramatic version of in Rise of Skywalker, when they think C-3PO is killed and then five minutes later it's like oh no, actually C-3PO is not killed. The more I think about it.
Speaker 2:This movie feels like what I use to describe 80s movies, which is happy-go-lucky nihilism. It's like there's no consequences. It's just like there's darkness and stuff like that, but it's like goofy or it's in good fun or it doesn't.
Speaker 1:Everything's going to be fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like.
Speaker 1:We're going to just freeze frame an ending eventually and then call it a day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I don't know, I think I'm on board with you here freeze, frame an ending eventually and then call it a day. Yeah, so I don't know this. I I totally I think I'm on board with you here about like how it sounds really cruel but meaningless. This movie is um, but at the same time, I think, for me that's that's why I would still like chalk it in the same category. For me, at least for a summer interlude, it's just like this little tryst, cinematic tryst that bergen's going on um and just exercising like. I do think there there are plenty of things here within the movie that I enjoyed while it was happening, like I really yeah, like the, the acting is good, it's a lot of the same players that we're used to.
Speaker 1:Uh, the the cinematography is like it's not. Uh, it's all kind of like small scale and stuff in a way that I don't know if this like lends itself to some of the really cool cinematography, but there's good moments for sure, I think the chemistry is really good.
Speaker 2:And, speaking of cinematography, in the second story, when the guy and girl are outside, in the exterior, there's this great sequence where they're laying in a boat together. I love it.
Speaker 1:And it looked really great. I like the elevator thing too in the last sequence. Yeah, I think the last one is my favorite.
Speaker 2:I think that one was, and you know what that one felt like Bergman I think you said it like out of his element like he was doing like physical comedy, he was doing like like the thing, the um, what they do to convey the elevator crash was like very, uh, shocking.
Speaker 1:It was good shocking in a bergman movie like you could totally imagine that looking like star trek, the original series or something where it's just kind of goofy or whatever, like you know how do original series or something where it's just kind of goofy or whatever Like? You know how do you simulate another crash, but it's like it's well done. It was like scary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, if you remember, that scene really capitalized on shadow, yeah, and it really did a lot with lighting.
Speaker 1:That's. That's kind of in my mind, like what I remember is the light like flickering and stuff.
Speaker 2:And like, yeah, they got a lot of mileage out of that. Yeah, and they have this even gimmick or a gag with his top hat and the light bulb going on and off. It's all very good, it's very funny. I was actually cracking up. I have to think about it, but that might be the most I've laughed in a Bergman movie.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's probably not a long list of guffaws from from bergman movies like what? What would we, what would you say, putting this aside? Just this movie's in a vacuum? What would you say is the funniest bergman movie? Um, maybe seventh seal oh my, I mean what for, like the, the quips death is making to max von seidel?
Speaker 2:no, you have the jester character.
Speaker 1:You know he's like oh, the jester, oh, that jester is so funny so but it was fine, I just I.
Speaker 2:It stood out for sure, like I'm I think you bring up. A good point, though, is like how many times have I ever actually laughed in a Bergman movie? Well, at least I have this one now. I'm gonna keep track of it now like it's registered, like that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think there's moments of comedy in, uh like, some of the movies we've seen so far, not not like, but like Summer Interlude, I think had some like with like the um, the boyfriend's like aunt or whatever, that whole scene when she's drinking and they're playing cards or whatever, there was some funny stuff in there. I think you know what she was talking about how she's dying of cancer.
Speaker 2:This is probably a funny anecdote to probably end on and lead to the next movie that we'll talk about. Next time, summer of Donica. We'll talk about next time Summer with Annika. But one day our mutual friend, dave, came over to my place and we were going to do a movie marathon and he said let's watch a Bergman movie. Fun, fun idea. And I have a recollection at some point in my life that someone wrote that Bergman did a comedy and I didn't really remember which one it was and I still don't know.
Speaker 1:I think it's. I saw this described as a chamber comedy in some places, that Waiting Women, oh okay, which I mean yeah.
Speaker 2:I believe it might be Smiles of a Summer Night, which I have not seen, but nonetheless that's not the movie that I picked for us to watch. I picked for us to watch Summer with Monica. Somehow, I thought my memories got mixed up. I'm like maybe this is the comedy, but it turns out it's not a comedy and it was really fun.
Speaker 1:Summer with Monica is not a comedy.
Speaker 2:It's not a comedy, and we will see that. And you know our friend Dave and he hasn not a comedy, um, and you, we will see that. You know, and you know our friend dave, and you know he he's hasn't seen a whole lot of bergman movies, so, uh, it will be funny to watch this with you, um, because how long?
Speaker 1:how long into the movie did you realize it was not a comedy?
Speaker 2:uh, pretty quickly I think uh, yeah, it's uh, it's not um I mean, it's not as quick as the one. What's the one? Um, I think port of Call is the one that opens up, where she's jumping in to kill herself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it opens with a suicide attempt. Was there like a moment in watching Summer with Monica where you like paused and were like I don't think this is the movie I thought it was.
Speaker 2:Or was it like after the fact, like, so I think the way I remember it, there was just a kind of a palpable like shared feeling between dave and I as we were watching and like, oh, I was wrong yeah, okay, so I know that feeling so yeah, I think, um, I'm really excited, though I think um waiting women was a good movie. I don't. I don't think either. Both of us would probably argue it's probably one of the lesser ones that we've seen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if I were going to give stars this, this would be a solid three out of five for me it's a good movie.
Speaker 1:I would recommend seeing it, especially if you're interested in a 50s era drama with a bit more bite, or a 50s comedy drama with a bit more bite, or 50s like comedy drama with a bit more bite than you might normally expect. Um, but other than that, you know it's not changing. You know my life or anything like that, which you know. Not every movie has to do like it's totally fine to just have a good movie once in a while I think this, this one, is the most harmless of all bergman movies.
Speaker 2:That's kind of one of the words I'm thinking of here with with waiting women. But I.
Speaker 1:I could see it being a movie honestly, for if you hate bergman, you might like this movie it's definitely that's I was thinking like.
Speaker 2:So I think, uh, summer interlude it's not, it's not inaccessible, I guess, and I I might hazard a guess that summer interlude or and or waiting women would be like good entry points to Bergman, almost.
Speaker 1:I think the only thing I would be reluctant about maybe less so Summer Interlude, but more so with this one is I don't think you're going to walk away hating it, but I think you might walk away being like what's the big deal with Bergman. Walk away being like what's the big deal with bergman, like you know, like, but I don't think you'd walk away being like the way someone could walk away with from persona, being like what the hell did I just watch? Um, I don't think they're gonna, they're not gonna say that with waiting women, but they also might be like well, why, why is bergman a big deal? Like that was, that was fine, but yeah, I don't know. Watch, watch it, check it out.
Speaker 2:It's worth watching. I think it's worth mentioning that we're watching this in chronological order through the boxes. So I mean it's not like this is not a mandatory Bergman movie by any means. I mean it's, but it's a good, I like it. So I would just say, if you like Bergman, I think it's still worth checking out. Like this is not to me. This is not the worst Bergman movie and I actually like it. Critically I like it less, but personally I actually really like this movie. I think it was pretty fun and it's some Bergman's funniest work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'm going to put it on the poster Some of Bergman's funniest work. Well, thanks, nick. I think that about wraps it up here. I think I'm ready to hang out with Monica for the summer.
Speaker 2:You say that now you haven't met.
Speaker 1:Monica yet. Yeah, I guess I haven't met Monica. Huh Well, I have a feeling that horrible things are going to happen to, or be caused by, monica coming up here, so I'm looking forward to that. I guess In the meantime, though, we'll be signing off. So thanks for waiting with us. Thanks for waiting around.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to think of a funny talk. Let the listeners get back to your waiting women. I'm trying to think of like a funny We'll let you, the listeners get back to your waiting women.
Speaker 1:I was trying to think of like a funny audio equivalent way to just like cut this off like an abrupt ending oh, that's.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it works so well in an audio form.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe I'll just Bye.