"Down In SA"
Enter the world of the Kool Kids who live in San Antonio, Texas who share their experiences growing up at the best of times in the Alamo City and South Texas. A breed a part.
"Down In SA"
Artist George Horner of SA
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Join us for an intrepid, avant-garde journey into the genesis of San Antonio’s Modern, Pop, and Performance art movements with artist George Horner. This exploration traverses the pre-Blue Star era, examining Horner’s solo evolution and his collaborative "combine" works with the pioneers who defined the city's creative landscape. Beyond the canvas, he maps the social fabric of a city in transition and the inner workings of those bold enough to venture into his world. We begin with a "hot mic" moment before the official introduction… Enjoy.
Music by: Los#2 Dinners
Songs: Chingadera & Friday the 13th Part 85
Podcast Copyright: 24 Hour Entertainment- 2024-2026
Welcome to Down in SA, aka Down in San Antonio, Texas, that is. Here you will be a part of the lives of the cool kids who grew up here in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. From the music, culture, society, big red, hippo sodas, and breakfast tacos. You will learn the cool elements of our hidden society. So grab a long neck, or a shot of tequila, light up a doobie, and say, screw the Alamo. This is who we really are. The cool kids down in SA. Sounds really crazy, man.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It sounds very bizarre.
SPEAKER_00My work is done.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Remember now, we don't have to jam everything in all at one time. Oh, yeah, we do. Yeah. That's the way I fuck.
SPEAKER_00That's the way I interview, and that's the way I fuck.
SPEAKER_01Hey, this is exactly its freestyle word. Total freestyle.
SPEAKER_02Let me see what you let me see.
SPEAKER_01Let me see. Okay, here we go. So I'm gonna do a countdown intro and then we'll go. Okay. All right, here we go. Three, two, one. Welcome everybody to Down in SA. My name is Chick, part of the Cool Kids here with George Hornet. Welcome to the show. George Hornet's an artist. Roots in San Antonio, floated through Chicago, up in New York City, Manhattan, or Brooklyn. And uh it's great to have you on the show, George. Thanks, Chick. Great to be here. So let's just go back. You were raised in the Jefferson area, Jefferson High School, correct? Yeah, I think they call it Monticello Heights now. Oh, they had to heighten it up like uh heights. Yeah, well, that's the realtors got a hold of it, jacked up all the home prices, you know. But yeah, it was Monticello cool back when. So you grew up there and you're in high school.
SPEAKER_00Well, originally on the south side of San Antonio, but then we moved to the north side when I was in the second grade. So I I I do kind of have my roots in the south side of of uh of San Antonio, but uh okay, you know, big end, uh Macrela Shopping Center, that area over there, right? Yeah, I know. Is that Big End still there? Is what the Big N? Is McCrela Shopping Center still there?
SPEAKER_01Nah, I don't know. I I mean it's probably been 20 years since I've been down there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, me too. It's been a while. I I I anyway, that's uh so you guys a doctor, and he had his office in the original McCrelaus Center, um, and it was called Little M. And then they built the first big mall in the south side, and it was a Creeless Mall, Macrelaus Mall. And uh um anyway, we lived a few blocks from there, and uh uh I'm very fond of that area, but we moved to the north side, yeah, pretty close to Jefferson High School, and um that's that's really where I grew up.
SPEAKER_01So you're growing up there, and you graduated from Jefferson High School. Do you dream 1969? Mighty fine. Perfect year, man. Just the oh yeah. That's that's yeah, that's the best direction in love making a person can go with others. Uh so you so you you as you're coming into your senior year, Vietnam Wars going on. You're looking at what in your in your future do you like drive yourself? Like, do you how do you move yourself into the art world? Were you already captivated by some teacher in Jefferson High, or how did you move into that area?
SPEAKER_00Uh well, I my house was uh my house and my grand grandparents' house, it it was it was always full of art. Um not necessarily the art that I really uh liked all that much because it was a lot of uh Western art in our home, like Western art and blue bonnet paintings and that sort of thing. My my grandparents' house, my grandfather was um it was Colonel Horner, and he was the publisher of the lights newspaper there in San Antonio, which was a Hearst publication. I think it's now it's the San Antonio Express. Right. Uh they combined the light with the express and then got rid of the light name. Uh and but um but anyway, he he was a collector of portfurrio Salinas paintings. And uh Salinas uh was based in San Antonio, and he was he was the first uh Mexican-American uh artist to achieve national prominence. Uh when Kennedy was assassinated on my father's birthday, actually, uh November 22nd. I remember my father telling me that was the best birthday present he ever received. I was like, what? Dad, that's fucked up. You know? But he was a staunch Republican. He hated the Kennedys, and I uh we we're just polar opposites when it comes to politics, but that's a whole nother story. But anyway, they um uh they collected uh Selena's paintings, and when when my uh grandparents passed away, I inherited uh a really lovely one that I still have hanging in my house. It's uh Texas Hill Country with blue bonnets and live oaks. It's it's gorgeous. That's a big old gaudy gold frame all the way around it. It's it's uh it's it's it's quite lovely. But that's kind of the work, that's the environment that I kind of grew up in. I was surrounded by art, but it's kind of very conservative art. And um uh, but uh you know, my love of comic books and and then especially uh my discovery of underground comics in about 1968-69 uh really changed uh the the course of my uh you know uh art my my love of art. And uh I I was drawn more towards pop art and contemporary art. And I particularly loved pop art, uh, you know, because it all came out of the comic books anyway. Yeah. And um so and uh and in in junior high, I went to Horace Mann, um kind of another school. It was Woodlawn Elementary, then Horace Mann, and then Jefferson, and then college Southwest Texas and San Marcus, which is now Texas State. But um, and I had a double major when I went there, it was art and theater, art and drama. But uh, but in in in junior high and um at Horace Mann, my homeroom teacher was Mr. Scott, and he was the art teacher. So he had a big influence on on me as well. And uh so so you know, as as a and uh my mother collected uh uh paintings, uh Sue Jellerson paintings, who was based in San Antonio also, and I really liked her paintings. And there for a while I was trying to paint and emulate uh her work. It was it was uh black backgrounds and then kind of funny animals with big eyes on them, and you know, they're kind of cutesy, but but you know, kind of nice, nicely painted, and I liked her work. Um but uh it was it really wasn't until um I met Don in around 1969, Don Evans, who kind of introduced me to Dada, Surrealism, uh the European avant-garde movements, uh like Fluxus and uh, you know, uh Russian constructivism and Russian suprematism and Italian futurism, and I'll just go, you know, and uh French Cubism and it just goes on and on. And and so uh I'd always uh developed a real love for art history, and um so that's that's really where the the love for modern and contemporary art came from. Um was through Don. Through Don and you know, through my own studies, but primarily through Don. Right. Uh he was very knowledgeable, and and uh um uh uh his some of his uh teachers, like Frank Hein at uh at Sack, were very influential. And and you know, so it's it's a matter of mentoring, you know, because like Frank Hein told Don about Dada and Surrealism. Don told me, you know, so it kind of just goes, it just it it's a mentoring thing. I did a big neon not too long ago, and it said uh it's called mentor, mentor, mentor, and it's a big neon, and it and the the words uh flash, but it's like if you if you take mentor, mentor, mentor together, it spells out men, mentor or torment. Men torment or men, men, mentor or torment, men, mentor or torment. And and so it's just like this this ongoing thing. So they you know the they either pass the information on to the deserving or they don't. Right. Yeah, you're undeserving, or they don't. They feel they feel threatened by uh, you know, that's that's uh that's a um a secret knowledge that that needs to be guarded and held on to, you know, or something. That's I don't know. I I myself try to mentor as many people as as possible. I I uh I'm quite free with uh information. I'll just I'll just talk your fucking ear off, you know. So just a major download. I thought I would I would uh I would read this one thing here when when uh when we had our show at Texas Pop back in uh oh I think what was it like 2018, I think, I believe.
SPEAKER_01Um it was the uh was that show at San Antonio Museum of Art? Where did you where was it?
SPEAKER_00No, no, it was at Texas Pop. It was the South Texas Cultural South Texas Cultural Center. Um was that that place on Broadway?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right off of Broadway. By by Good Time Charlie's, I think, something like that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that lady Nika, somebody had that together with somebody else, and uh, anyways, so yeah, it's it's it's a it was a nice, nice venue, kind of a music venue as well.
SPEAKER_00Um, but we had a show there, uh, and it was called Mutagenic Mustering, and it was kind of a history of Samoa and and and um you know it was our history. It was Don, me, Norman, um uh John Rogers who had just passed away, and Jim Harter, who passed away. Yeah, so it was a really nice show. So it was kind of uh um a uh memorial show for um for um Jim Harter and John Rogers and then and then uh Don and Norman and I, um, the usual suspects. But uh we all we were asked to do a little bio and um and Norman and Don, they did kind of a real straight you know bio, you know, blah blah blah. And and and this is what I wrote. I got together with my with my good my uh one of my uh dearest friends from uh elementary school until now, uh Rudy Sanchez, who who now who was in the number two dinners, of course, and uh was in Keyfloe Turtle and and um all the other kind of music and art venues that I've been involved with. He was uh involved in it a lot as well. Um not some more than others, and and now he has his own band called uh Luke 13 Show, which uh came out of the number two dinners. But uh anyway, this is I I got together with him and wrote this. Uh, you know, because I don't, you know, I I believe in in being a serious artist, but but you know, without trying to take yourself too seriously, right? I think uh uh Don and Norman have a tendency to take themselves very, very seriously, especially Norman. Um uh uh Don, not so much. Don can be uh as as self-deprecating as the next person, but um, but I uh anyway, this is what I wrote. I said uh uh the best advice George Horner ever received was don't give up your day job. And duck when the monkey throws the shit. Considered a child prodigy and genius by no one except himself. George was born in Dallas because he wanted to be close to his mother. However, he was reared in San Antonio and in many men's bathrooms throughout the state. He co-founded the first artist run gallery in San Antonio in 1978, Samoa, where he was guaranteed a show. George often performed nude in the legendary Keyflo Turtle Group until he sat on one too many splendid wooden benches. Plus, the audience demanded that he put his clothes back on. In 1979, George moved away, and San Antonio hasn't been the same. Thank goodness. He left, leaving his mark on the city, but a little soap and water and a stiff brush should remove it. George currently lives in Brooklyn under a bridge he bought there. I create to make the world beautiful to live in. Otherwise, people would live in misery without my art. If everyone was like me, the world would be a beautiful place. But enough about me. What do you think of my show? Anyway. That's what I want.
SPEAKER_01You know, people all summed up, and I've known you for 30 plus years easily. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And we've known each other for 50 years, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, you're right. You're you exactly you are right. Yeah. Because I had my 50th class reunion two years ago, I think. So we've known each other for like 51, 52 years.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we we we met at the time machine when we both worked there, and that was uh that that was the early 70s.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_0073, I think.
SPEAKER_01So let me get to the structure of you go to school at Southwest, you're you're a bobcat, uh, you meet Don, you know, Lenny and them were all floating around. The community.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well they were all at they were all at UT. Right. But uh Frank was at Southwest Texas. I think uh a lot of people were at SAC. Right. We kind of splintered in 69 when we all went off to uh college. Um Leonard and Bart went to UT. Um uh my girlfriend Jang Gonzalez at the time and her sister Kay were they all went to Southwest Texas, and both of my brothers went to southwest Texas, so I kind of just followed suit. Right. I I had no I had no preference. I I kind of wanted to stay behind and and go to SAC. Right.
SPEAKER_01But um But all of you were lined up on I-35, so you guys were all still within reaching. Pretty much, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00You guys were all still lined up on I-35. I like that.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, so you go, you you're and so you're are you studying art at in college? Okay, so you're studying art, yeah, yeah. You meet Don, you know, you guys get this collective, you're crossing one another. And in San Antonio, so it has the Witty, the McNay. I don't think the San Antonio Museum of Art was built yet, right? No, it was not. So it was only the Witty, the McNay. What other facility was there? Primarily just those two, right?
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, um they were definitely the major uh uh art institution.
SPEAKER_01Maybe the Institute of Texas and Cultures, if you want to consider their galleries there as being like a place where you could go and see art, right? Because I was from Hammond Center.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's true. That's true. I I know in the German section there was a big picture of my my great-great-grandfather George hanging in the he was uh he was uh one of the captains on uh on um uh Company One, which was the first volunteer fire department in San Antonio back in the 1860s, something like that. They were located there behind the Alamo, right? Uh I think so. Yeah, I think so. I'm not I'm not really sure. Uh probably that sounds about right. Yeah, because that's he had a he had a bar here in San Antonio. It was called George's uh uh George George Horner's Bar. And uh it was it was located located on uh I think it was on Commerce, I believe. It's no longer there. The street when they widened the the river, they they they took this they took it um they took that whole block off. Uh took the whole block out. So in the um old pictures of San Antonio, you can you can you can see it. Um anyway. Yeah, I studied uh studied art. Um wasn't really serious about it. Uh uh, you know, uh in the early days. Um I had no real direction. I didn't really know what what uh what was what I was doing. Right. Uh uh I know I didn't want to paint uh blue bonnets and uh Western art. So I I you know I knew you know I knew what direction I wanted to go. Uh and it was not uh you know in a in a in a sort of Texas uh landscape, you know, Western tradition. So um so let's get into that. I had some good teachers and and I remember uh one one teacher at Southwest Texas saying something like, you know, in in in 20 years, or even in 10 years, I can't remember what he said, but it might have even been five years, uh uh 99% of you in here will no longer be making art. And that really stuck with me, you know, and I was like, I was just kind of determined to be that that 1% person that that still made art when I'm you know, I'm 74 now, I'm still making art. Right you know, and and um so I I think um out of out of just about the only thing I took out of uh out of uh uh my studies at Southwest Texas was that little that that odd comment that one of my teachers made, and it really, really stuck with me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that is a powerful statement to make. Yeah, it's pretty powerful. Pretty powerful. Well let's get into the let's get into the the underground, because we both grew up in San Antonio. Yeah. There was a good government league, right? There was Lulak, there was like La Raza, there was, you know, the the countryside, you know, be it the south side, of course, you know, there's the east side, you know, everyone had their segregated worlds, they had their conservatism. Uh but but you and a group come along and you want pop culture to go into an underground movement creating shows like Keyflow, right? Metagenic Mustard. Like, tell me a little bit how you guys came to say, let's paint this picture of who we are, and we know there's people out there that want to be a part of what we architect, and we want them to join. How did these how did this come about and where were you guys establishing these facilities? Huh. That's an interesting question. Um, just take one at a time, just take one at a time if you want. Like, how did Keyflo Turtle come about and what was that about?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, Keyflow Turtle, I think, was was really originated uh by uh by Dan Withers. And um Dan Withers was a really interesting uh character. He he was he studied under Segovia, you know, the uh the Spanish flamenco uh uh flamenco uh uh guitarist. Yeah. And um and he was uh really, really an incredible guitar player. But he he eventually um uh left Segovia's uh tunage. Uh he he just he he felt he did not have it in him to to continue the legacy of of Segovia. And he somehow wound up in San Antonio, and and he um um uh uh there for a while he was painting uh all the signs at Playland Park when they you know before they tore down Playland Park and they revamped it. He was the one that was painting the woman on the hot dog and and all the kind of the all the real you know surreal signage that that uh I'd love to go to Playland Park and see. And and um uh he started he started Keyflow Turtle and kind of came out of the the Dada tradition of the Of the cabaret that came out of the cabaret voltaire that was that was founded in Zurich uh right after World War II, or right after World War I, I'm sorry, about 1920 in Switzerland, and all the all the artists had escaped uh Europe and and kind of wound up in Switzerland because Switzerland was a neutral country, uh, and um all the money was there. Uh you know, all the other countries uh stashed their money there, so so they didn't want to bomb it or anything. So but the so there were all these artists that got together, and then they were so disgusted with the politics and that that had uh plunged the world into a war, a world war that they they wanted to change everything, including art, and that's why Dada uh uh was developed. So um, but Dan Withers and um uh who is that uh Phil Crum, who was in uh yeah, Phil Crum was in the Fluxus movement, and uh and he was an incredible uh musician and composer. And um uh oh god, um uh Henry Stein uh was in San Antonio. He's still in San Antonio, and and uh he was he was uh Dan Withers' uh best friend until uh he ran off with Dan Withers' wife, you know, and then that made things a little complicated. Any shit happens, right? Small town San Antonio, that always a little bit. But um, but but Dan was very interested in art history as well, and um, you know, so he he put together this uh with with uh Frank Hein and um as well. And Frank H Frank Hein was in uh Keyfloat Turtle in the early days, and so he he you know formed this troupe and and uh somehow we got involved in it. And I'm I'm not really sure, probably you know, definitely through Dan, but I'm trying to remember how we met Dan. I think it was Dan. We met Dan through Jim Harder and through Don, I think. And um, but but uh Keyflo Turtle was really interesting, and we we performed it in at bars, and um and and there were these kind of they were these are short artistic little skits, you know, like Don and I did this thing, we were dressed up as Japanese warriors, and we and we were uh the bonsai art group, and we we stood on stage and and with an art history book and we tore pages out of it and stabbed it with uh with knives and stuff. We and we destroyed the isms of art, you know. That was you know, you know what I mean? Then there was the Johnny Jackie hamburger happening where we re-enacted the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and I played Kennedy, and uh Don was Jackie originally, but then my girlfriend uh Kathy Block uh became Jackie in the pink dress and the pink pillbox hat.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00And um, and underneath her dress, she had a loaf of bread. And when I was assassinated, I had a well, she had a Jackie mask, a plastic mask on, and I had a plastic Kennedy mask. And I and and when um uh the the rat assassin jumped on stage and uh assassinated uh me when I fell to the to the stage, my mask fell off and it was full of baloney, like sliced bologna. And then and then Kathy reached under her dress and pulled out the the loaf of bread, and then she made she started making bologna sandwiches with the with the baloney that fell out of my head, and then they pass it out to the audience and they sat there and ate bologna sandwiches, you know. So that was another skip.
SPEAKER_01So that was just at this time that was underground performance art in San Francisco. Oh, absolutely. Moving from venue to venue.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. They knew the venue. It was definitely performance art. Uh it was art-based, uh uh, you know, shock, you know, shock value. Right. Um the the show always ended with me as the geek, and I would bite the head off of a rubber snake with a mouthful of grenadine that looked like blood, and then that would be, you know, that would be the end of it. There was uh um a lot of uh uh uh uh Frank Hein. I remember him him and a couple other people, four other people, they made these big wooden fish out of cardboard, and they sung the Star Spangled Banner by gargling water, you know, just just weird stuff. Just uh just off-the-wall, you know, data and spy inspired uh wild stuff that that uh that people actually loved and they they responded to it really well. I think we did it at um Proof Rock's uh Proof Rock's bar that was over there by um uh Brackenwich Park.
SPEAKER_01Brackenwich Park, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Brackenwich Park is torn it's torn down now, unfortunately. But uh right.
SPEAKER_01It was like on the street as you would go down to go to the main part of the zoo entrance, right? Yeah, that corner there. Exactly. Right, yeah, and I think it became the Bombay bicycle shop years later, and that became like a real popular bar.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think so. I think so. Or yeah, because I remember you maybe wrong. I'm not I'm not sure about that. I think so. Right. And then uh Phil Crumb did uh Dickie Presto's uh uh apocalyptic uh skit where he he was dressed up with in a monkey mask and and uh you know kind of for you know foretold the uh the apocalypse. And you know, so so you know there were there were some uh uh skits that were that were rather dark and other ones that were very funny. That was Don's light suit dance. Right. That was uh I remember that one homage to Atsuko Tunaka, who was uh uh a Japanese artist that used light. Uh he he or she atsuko I can't remember if it's a woman or man. I think it was a woman actually, and and and she made um or the artist made the the suit out of out of different light bulbs and that sort of thing back in the 50s.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00And then Don, I I uh I stole a bunch of uh uh Christmas Christmas tree lights from my parents, and and we made a light suit uh for Don. We wrapped Christmas tree lights uh all over his body, and then he uh he did a dance to um I don't know, Rainbow Bridge or something, uh some music. Uh but it was quite beautiful. It was really nice. And then I had a I had a suit with broken pieces of mirror on it, and uh there towards uh a couple of skits, I would uh get on stage uh behind Don, and then the lights from his light suit would reflect off the mirror and then shoot them out into the audience. And it was it was pretty interesting, yeah. Pretty pretty interesting fun. But you know what killed that was the gong show. Oh around that time the gong show came on television, that's right. And we were like, no, we're doing key flow turtles.
SPEAKER_01We had already we were before Barrett. Yeah, we were before the Key Show. Before Chuck Barrett came out with the Gong Show, and who knows? He might have sat in there one day just going through San Antonio and go, I got an idea, and then took off the show. Who knows? You know, who knows?
SPEAKER_00There was something floating in the air, but but we kind of had to sort of end key flow because it, you know, it was kind of like, well, you know, we we did it for a number of years and it it it it uh it ran its course and uh it it uh tried to be revised a couple of times, but you know, it just kind of you know it things run their course, you know what I mean? Well, let me ask you one last question. That was a lot of fun, but that was you know, that was uh and we performed it in in Austin um uh once and and uh um you know, but but for San Antonio in the early 70s, that was pretty radical. Very that was uh that was uh that was pretty radical for any place in 1970, I think. But uh that there was a lot going on in San Antonio, and uh, but for whatever reason, there there were just a number of artists that had congregated in that area. There was Charles Wynan. Charles Wynan was around also, right? And uh he was quite he was quite the character. My God, he was implement. I I think he sued the Rolling Stone uh newspaper because they they said that he was somehow involved in the Manson murders or something, and it's really weird. Yeah, and he sued him and he had nothing to do with Charles Manson, but and then and then you know once we heard that, we said, oh God, we gotta give him a show at Somoma, you know?
SPEAKER_01So we get so let's do this. I'm gonna we're gonna I'm gonna I want to close out with one more question. Okay, and then we'll go into a part two and bring our audience into Samoa. Um the question I have for you So Keyfloat Turtles out there doing this performance art, very on avant-garde, extreme one ends to the other. What publication, if any, you know, and you talked about family heritage owning the San Antonio Lite, the Express News was around. I don't know what maybe Sam Kendricks magazine was around back then, but who was writing, if anybody, articles about Keyflow Turtle? I mean, it wasn't like KSAT or Cairns was gonna come out and shoot some videos and go, oh, this you know, avant-garde group of artists from San Antonio had, you know, like was there anybody publishing what you guys were doing?
SPEAKER_00Uh very little. Very little. I think there were probably a couple of articles in the paper. There was a when we performed in Austin, um, there was something in um in um yeah, uh something in the UT Press or something. I I'll have to find it somewhere. It says uh uh San Antonio's key flow turtle brings uh surreal theater to Austin or something like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because even then there weren't really any print publications that were writing on the extreme. You know what I'm talking about? I mean, it took a while for any of those publications to float up.
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, I think it I I I think it it took a while. There were there there, you know, there was um um uh you know, the Eagle Bone Whistle, and then there was um oh, what was the uh Eagle Bone Whistle, and then there was one other uh publication. Uh but they were it was more political. But but Don uh But it wasn't Eagle Bone Whistle was the first one, and then the other one, oh why is my mind blank right now? God damn it.
SPEAKER_01Um uh well I mean the Eagle Bone Whistle that alone you know is like that other publication, not not the Eagle Bone Whistle, but uh damn it.
SPEAKER_00Um well anyway, I'll uh I can research that and we can talk about four. But but uh Don um and John Rogers, and then uh I had I had some uh Norman had uh some art in it, I had some art in it. Um uh those you know that was the only other kind of it was you know it was like a free press. Right. Um and and they did we uh we published uh uh uh uh theater without breast, which was a manifesto that uh that Don and I wrote. Um and um and that was that was published. So uh and then you know in the centerfold would do would would be these wonderful big detailed drawings that Don would do or John Rogers did uh uh did them as well. I think uh Norman maybe had uh one as well. Um that was really kind of about it that that I could sort of think of. Right, right. You know, as far as like publications. I think there were some like music publications, but that that came a little bit later when the number two dinners kind of kicked over.
SPEAKER_01Like the clubs and the live acts, and then you know, they'd write critique. Yeah, it was more like because there was a big music scene for sure in San Antonio. So we're gonna close this section of our interview here with artist George Horner. We will be back with part two right after this.