Part II Artist George Horner & SAMOMA

After facing rejection from established institutions like the McNay and the Witte, George Horner, Don Evans, and Norman Avila took matters into their own hands. Their creation, SAMOMA, injected "new blood" into a dormant society and ignited a cultural awakening in San Antonio. This bold move laid the foundation for the city’s modern gallery scene—including the iconic Blue Star. In this interview, we trace that lineage of artistic defiance and, of course, revisit the chaos of the Sex Pistols with ULTRA.

Music by: Los#2 Dinners

Songs: Chingadera & Friday the 13th Part 85

Podcast Copyright: 24 Hour Entertainment- 2024-2026

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to Down in SA. AKA Down in San Antonio. Texas, that is. Okay. Here you will be a part of the lives of the cool kids who grew up here in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. From the music, culture, society, big red, hippo sodas, and breakfast tacos. Okay. You will learn the cool elements of our hidden society. So grab a long neck or a shot of tequila, light up a doobie, and say, screw the Alamo. This is who we really are. The cool kids, down an essay. Are you in Texas? Are you in California? Yeah, no, I'm in Texas. Oh, in Texas, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So um let's start off with part two. Okay. And uh we're gonna talk about umky Times.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

I remembered that paper, The Honky Times. Oh, okay, okay. Okay. That was the other publication, the underground publication. Honky Times. That was the one that was kind of more art um oriented oriented. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Okay, cool. All right, so here we go. In um just make sure this thing's recording. Yeah. All right. In three, two, one. Welcome everybody to Down and SA. My name is Chick, your host. This is part two with artist George Horner. Thank you for uh being a part of this extended um interview of uh talking about the cool kids and all the things that we did and established in San Antonio. And you know, we had talked about earlier the museums that were just kind of you know always there, uh the McNay, the witty, and then, you know, briefly uh uh the Texas uh Institute of Texan Cultures. And then you had brought up the Carver, which was basically used to be a school, a college, and then it was a performance center, and the front gallery would have different African American artists.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Yeah, there was the South Southwest Texas Crafts Center.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

That's right. Yeah. So you guys came along as this collective of pop culture, avant-garde culture, had studied, had cross-studied with numerous other artists, had all had different backgrounds from their schooling and their travels. And you guys came together one day and said, We need to establish our own museum. Tell me how you guys came about that, kicking that idea around and how it became developed and what it was called.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Well, um, originally we tried to submit and show our work within kind of the normal venues of San Antonio. Uh yeah, but but places like the Witty, well the the place like the Witty and the McNay were too established, and they just they were not interested in showing local talent, um, or very rarely. Uh there were few galleries um uh around uh uh I think uh I can't even uh uh think of one that that wasn't kind of uh oriented towards blue bonnets and and and uh Western type art. And uh there weren't any contemporary galleries to my knowledge. And um so we and then there was the um old uh the yearly the yearly show that the San Antonio Art League put put on, and and we would always submit work to it, and we'd always get uh get uh rejected. So uh I think the last the last two times um I actually got accepted within uh that uh that that San Antonio Art League show. One of my neons called Chairman was was exhibited and something else. And um but but Don was rejected and Norman was rejected, and and I think every other artist that we knew that had applied, I was the only one that was accepted. And um so we we put together, yeah, you know, I I think by that time we had just become very frustrated um with uh you know the the lack of support and the lack of alternatives to exhibit our work. So we put together uh the rejection show, and it was on the front porch of uh Richard and Alice Rodney's uh apartment building, uh kind of close by Sack, and it was called the Rejection Show. And so everyone uh put work out on the porch, and uh that was the that was the kind of the beginning of it. And then um we had a number of pop-up shows. Uh we we did uh uh a Joseph Boys Information show. Don and I did uh that that show together uh because we were really interested in the artist Joseph, the German artist Joseph Boy's. So we uh we put together a show in an abandoned house uh uh next to where I lived with uh my girlfriend at the time over on Rainbow and off of um Oh yeah, by Eisenhower. Yeah, yeah. Right now on Austin Highway. Yeah, right off of the Austin Highway. Yeah, it was on Rainbow. And um uh so we there was a house, an abandoned house, so Donna and I broke into it and put a show together. And then and then back in the back, there was uh a lot of kind of a wooded area, and we put uh we put a show together called Flame of the Forest. And um, and so we we made artworks with pieces of just debris and sticks and trash and and uh and we did this. Uh I I don't know. And and um uh that was uh the flame of the forest was the name of a tree that I that I saw while I was down in Honduras back in the summer of 73. And I just love that name. So when I came back, we uh I told Don about that, and and and I said, Well, I I want to name our next open uh happening the uh Flame of the Forest. And and so in in that case it really fit because it was out it was out in this kind of forest area, and then we uh uh did a um information show on Eve Klein, another artist that we that we liked, uh French artist Eve Klein. And uh we did that in and that was primarily Don's um uh uh exhibition, but uh but I uh I had work in it as well. And um uh so we had a number of these these uh uh kind of galleries without walls kind of things and and uh just pop-up one-day events and that sort of thing. And we really got to the point where we were really frustrated. We really wanted to have a gallery of our own. So Don and I um uh talked to Bob Tiemann uh from Trinity University. He you know, he taught painting at Trinity, and I think Norman had him as a teacher, and Don had him as a teacher. I I never went to Trinity, I I uh um and so uh but anyway, we uh Don and I uh talked to Bob Tiemann and said, Oh, can we can we rent some space from your studio? And uh he said, Okay. And um so we that was our first gallery, and then we called it the mutagenic muster gallery, and that was after a magazine that I had uh put together originally uh called Mutagenic Muster, the gathering of the of the mutants. And um and then we did located.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Where was that located in? Um where was this gallery at? Yeah. Um was it near Trinity?

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Was it north of uh no? It was kind of more more downtown area, um kind of off of Broadway. Right. Anyways, continue on. So you guys are. Yeah, I think I think it's like it was like near like Brooklyn and Dallas streets, oddly enough. Yeah, you know, which I which I think is really interesting because I was born in Dallas, and now I live, you know, now I live in Brooklyn, and it's and it was like it was a uh a cross section of those two streets that I discovered later how how pertinent those two streets were. But um, but anyway, we we uh that was our first gallery. We were we were slated to open and we put a bunch of paintings in it and sculptures and everything, and the the place was in really bad shape and and had lead paint and it was chipping off the walls, so we painted the walls, and then Bob Timon got really pissed off that we painted the walls and he threw us out. So we kicked us out. So we were we we we were closed before we were open, you know. So that was our first gallery. So that so that made us even more determined to open a space. So then so then I think Norman found the space on Woodlawn, and that uh and it was above uh a pawn shop uh there on Woodlawn, and uh that was the first gallery that we opened up, and it was uh called Samoa. And uh and that was the San Antonio Museum of Modern Art. And we sort of did that as a joke. Um, I mean, we tossed around different ideas like like like like I don't know, like caca, you know, like uh contemporary art, uh contemporary artists or casa, contemporary art San Antonio, uh which I think there is a place called Casa now. Yeah and um or was anyway, and then and we were gonna call it the Munogenic Mustard Gallery again, but we had already done that. Uh and we had we had just gone to New York and we just we went to the Museum of Modern Art and uh you know the Whitney Museum and the Metropolitan Museum, and and we were just so inspired uh by all these museums, we wanted to come back and open our own museum. And uh, you know, and what's a museum? It's a place where the muses reside, you know, and that's that's that's all the definition really of a museum. It doesn't have to be a big you know sacred temple or anything, you know. And um uh so and you know, we kind of did it to sort of piss people off, uh uh sum the nose at the at the establishment, and and also to give us kind of some instant credibility as well. Right. So there was there was all this stuff. Um oh yeah, the San Antonio Museum of Modern Art. Wow, you know, you must be serious. You know, kind of it's like, okay, sure, sure, sure we are. No, but we were we were very serious in our endeavor. But but you know, um uh looking back on it, I think it probably would have been more interesting to call it something else. But uh you know, it is what it is. It's it's and uh and we were there for three years, and without, you know, without uh trying to overinflate our egos or overinflate our importance, um, I think the the thing that the the lasting um uh tribute to to Samoa is the fact that there were uh so many other galleries that opened up after we closed. There was John Schoen, the Schoen Davenport, the Sol de Rio Objects Gallery, Mud Gallery, New Day Gallery, uh you know, just um and and and more than anything, Hap Veltman's uh um uh Blue Star complex. Right. And Hap Veltman, you know, he's uh uh he was the developer who uh I think he ran the country.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

He's the one that kind of brought the river to life in contemporary times. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

You know, so he was very, very important to the to uh culture in San Antonio, and then he would come to our uh to our openings at Samoa. He loves Somo. And he was kind of heartbroken when SOMOMA closed. Um, you know, I got a scholarship to go to the University of Chicago to do my graduate studies, and that's kind of why we closed um Samoa because I had because I was going away. And and also because uh the band, the number two dinners, was starting up. So Don and Norman were kind of wanted to sort of focus on uh making music and uh and snorting cocaine and drinking beer rather than uh rather than running running Somoma. No, not really, but I mean there's a certain amount of truth in that. We were all a rock and roll drug. You know a drug. Yeah, and um but um uh I digress. I was trying to think, oh yeah, but but uh without uh but but Hat Veltman uh then he you know he started the the Blue Star Complex, which which is still in existence to this day, you know? Yeah, and and so that's that I think is is um our our legacy, you know, not so much what we did, but what we kind of inspired, but also what we did. I mean, we had some great shows. I mean, we you know we uh uh when uh Gene Elder had a show there, and uh he also launched his um uh uh mayor uh candid candidacy from SOMOMA. We kind of backed him uh running for mayor, and his his party was the party party. And uh but but it was his you know his whole platform was the arts and and how important the arts are to San Antonio's economy and identity. You know, you look at Fiesta and you look at hemisphere and you look at you know uh you know everything else that's tied into uh the culture uh of San Antonio. Um it's all the arts.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

So um Yeah, and so much music was built in San Antonio, right? Whether it's the big conjuto, blues, you know, Robert Johnson recording, you know, his early hood.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

I mean, it's just you know, I mean it it yeah, the arts, you know, of course is a there's a lot of there's a lot of spiritual things that happened in San Antonio as well, you know, around the uh around the dead, the cutendas, you know. Yeah, well, we've got um Madame Blavatsky apparently uh you know was in San Antonio, and and uh you know there is still Don was the president of the Theosophical Society uh there in San Antonio, Joe Puglis was the vice president, you know, and Madame Blavatsky, you know, was one of the co-founders of uh Theosophy. So she apparently buried one of her magical amulets there in San Antonio, then it creates kind of a magic portal in San Antonio. There's all this, there's all this um mysticism involved in San Antonio as well. Um uh, you know, the missions are are absolutely gorgeous. It's an ancient city. Uh uh there's so much, you know, there's so much history in San Antonio. But but uh yeah, we showed uh God, um Rolando Brazino, Rudy Trevino, uh Henry Stein, Jerry Frost, Davistori, Felipe Reyes, uh the San Antonio Contemporary Music Ensemble. Um, right? Who? Dickie Rodney? No. Well, he uh he see um Richard was one of the co-founders, but he he left us and opened his own gallery on the river, which didn't last. I think he had one show there, and then he realized that that that was uh he couldn't sustain it. And um, but he was he was um um he was in Nag Diggy Dicky. Okay, which was a show, one of the last shows that we put together, and that and that uh that Nagdegay stood for Norman Avala, George Horner, um uh uh Don Evans, Gene Elder. That was a uh Nag Dege. That was the the the the abbreviation, the uh acronym for the for the first one. Well it was uh yeah, it was yeah, it was the initials of our names, and then Dickey was uh was was Richard Rodney or Dickie Rodney at the time. He goes by Richard now, but um uh but Nag Diggy Dickey, and that was a that was a group show, but uh that's where I made body pass of everyone and we projected slides on them. So I made that brick spiral right in the middle of the of the gallery. My brother was building a wall over at my father's house, and I I stole all of his bricks and took them over to the gallery and made this big spiral, uh wood uh brick spiral right in the middle of the gallery. So cool. And we did we did some really cool stuff, crazy stuff, you know. But uh, but we did we showed uh Dan Smith, uh Robert Gonzalez, um uh James Elk uh Elksman, uh Winna uh Vaskey, um uh Renee Pares and Larry Graber, Charles Wynan, a simple quark of faith, uh Steve Reynolds, Becky Whitehead, Kathy Hudgens, uh Dan Withers, Phil Crumb, 20 Years of Hard Labor, which was great, um Tom McMasters, Kay Stewart, Norman Avila. I I had a show there called uh cubism. When we um when we moved, we got kicked out of the show, uh out of our space at Woodlawn because somebody broke into our our space and and and ripped the floor out, ripped part of the floor out and and broke into the pawn shop um underneath and robbed the pawn shop. So they they kind of saw us as a um as a hazard, you know. So we so they so we yeah, and so uh so we lost, you know, they kicked us out. So then we found uh the other space on on uh McCullough that has the black and white checkered tiles on the front of it, which I always loved. And I'm I'm so into black and white checkers right now, and I call them go-go checks. I'm doing them on all my paintings right now. Um uh well in the 60s, DC Comics, they did this little strip of the top of all of their comics just so you could um uh determine which comics were DC, right? And they called them go-go checks. It lasted for about a year and a half, and that was you know, but such a silly thing. But I always loved I always loved go-go checks. I like the name go-go checks. It's so fucking stupid.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

I can't remember the one on Macala. Where was it a little ways coming north of the city?

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Um kind of right off of, I mean, it was a few blocks down from Woodlawn. Right. It was pretty close to the other the other one. It was uh, yeah, it was a one-story building, uh, had black and white, big black and white tiles, checkered tiles on the front of the side.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

As you were going north, as you were going north on McCullough.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And my uh uh my dad, when he moved his his doctor's office uh from the south side from Little Macrelis to uh to the north side, he his office was on Mc on McCullough, oddly enough. And then I think my uh my um great uncle, uncle uh uh uh Wiley Dallas was a Texas furniture maker, and he made Texas uh ranch furniture. And it was that uh spoke leg furniture, very famous there. It was based in San Antonio, and um I think I think it was also on McCullough. So oddly enough, we had all these all this kind of McCullough um uh family units, yeah, touchstones and things, you know, that that that are very meaningful, at least to me. And uh, but that was that was great. We yeah, we we um we had these big metal signs and we just we just happened to be able to spell the word SOMOMA, you know, uh with the with these metal letters that we that we found. So um and so we we hung them up uh up above on the on the outside of the wall above Samoa. And uh so that was fun. And then that was uh the number two dinners debuted at Samoa. I think it was one of the last events that we had there. Bongo Joe, you know, played at one of our openings. That was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Um didn't Sons of Hercules play there once too? What's that? Didn't Sons of Hercules play there one night too? Uh Frank of Lisa's band?

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Uh I thought they did. Was it uh was it was it Sons of Hir or was it Riff Raff?

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Oh, I think yeah, you know what? I think it was Riff Rath.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

I think I think it was I think it was you know really early. I think it was pre-Sons of It might have been Riffraft. Early Frank. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was uh Joe Joe Paglise's uh brother uh uh Frank Paglise, who who's uh very influential with uh the punk scene there and uh and uh the glam rock scene in San Antonio. He's still around.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Oh yeah, still doing it, still making punk. His whole band's still jamming it when they get out of just like you don't have if you never saw the sex pistols, you need to see Sons of Hercules for sure.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Yeah, yeah. Well, well, you know, it was it was it was Joe Paglis, you know, who who brought uh the Sex Pistols to uh Randy's rodeo. Right. And then he had um uh and and then Don's band uh Ultra opened uh for them and then uh Frank's or uh yeah Frank's band um I don't think it was the Sons of Hercules. It's it was uh what was the other band? Oh mystery date. No, it wasn't Mystery Day.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Um that's what happens when you're in a lot of bands.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Yeah, I know. Uh wasn't was it most beat next? No, it was uh uh well it doesn't matter. But anyway, they um um they you know those at least local San Antonio bands opened for the Sex Pistols, and of course everyone in the crowd, I actually I I uh you know Frank's band, they they tolerated it somewhat, but you know, Don's band Ultra was like the the double guitars and and uh oh my god, the crowd absolutely hated them. They they were just you know, I I people were in the audience just saying, Fuck you, get off the stage. That was the honor, what the fuck? We watch the sex missile, we don't watch these clouds, you know. And I remember Don uh uh often Don would put the strap on and he would be carried on stage like a briefcase. Yeah. Because like years ago in Flame of the Forest, Don and I did a whole series called the briefcase series, and we did all these different things about briefcases and and uh just kind of you know pine cone briefcase and uh you know uh you know stone briefcase and it's all made all this weird weird stuff. And so he wanted to become the human briefcase. So he he strapped this wooden strap around him, and and the drummer uh picked him up and carried him up. He was gonna pick him up and carry him up on stage and set him down like a briefcase, and he was gonna like jump up. So he picked him up and carried him up on stage, and the strap broke, and the Don just like fell on the stage. And but he, you know, he recovered, got up, and acted like that was supposed to happen, you know. And uh, but that was wild. That was a wild night, this the Sex Pistols night. My God. Yeah. Right? Oh, definitely, man. Very good. Yeah, that was that was another San Antonio happening, you know.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

But uh so you guys you guys split apart because some burglars go tearing through um the roof down to the pawn shop. You reset over in McCullough. Uh when you guys were on Woodlawn, who walked into the gallery to see one of the shows that you guys just didn't expect to see? Whether it was some political from San Antonio, whether it was some other artist or just some tourist that you found out later, you know, that maybe it was Jeremy Irons or like, was there anybody that you're there and you walked out to talk with them and you go, like, oh wow, how did you find us? Did you ever have one of those moments, sir? Oh boy. Huh.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

I don't think so.

unknown 25:49

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

I'll have to think about that. I'm not I'm not sure. I mean, our lives always 50 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

You know, it's just well I know, but I mean, you know, yeah, we we remember a lot of things and then all of a sudden. Yeah, we do.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

It's amazing the things we remember and and the things we forget, you know. Um there's uh one of my posters that says uh the more we know, the more we forget, and the more we forget, the less we know, so the less we know, the less we forget, the less we forget, the more we know. So there you go. You have the best posters, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

And um, but uh I'm trying to how long did McCullough stay open?

SPEAKER_00 26:29

Like what was the final thing? Well, I think I think w we were totally we were we were open for about three years. From about we opened in 76, we closed in in 79. And uh so it was about it was about a a year and a half in each space, something like that. Maybe one year at Woodlawn and two years at McCullough, something, you know, something something like that. Uh they were both interesting spaces. I particularly loved the space at Woodlawn. Um that was it was just kind of a big open space. It looked like a it looked like a New York space. Yeah. The McCullough space was more of a storefront space. Um stairs up the back, right? Off to the side there. You know, at Woodlawn?

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Yeah, at Woodlawn, you have to go to the street.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Yeah, yeah, I think that's how they broke in. They came in through that back uh the back stairs and broke in through the window. Um and then had the the front stairs uh you know going up. And I painted the they had a tin ceiling, and I painted it, painted it blue to look like sky when you kind of came into the space. I remember that. And um and I sanded the floors and oh god, I sanded the floors, pulled up all the tiles and sanded the floors at the McCullough uh building. I remember Don and Norman, they didn't want to have anything to do with that. They were like, no, we don't want to do that, it's too much work. And I'm like, fuck you, you know. I want to I want a nice space because I opened McCullough with my show. Uh cubism. And and uh so I just wanted to make sure the show was the the space was nice, you know, and it was, you know, it looked great. So but uh but I was a little pissed at Don and Norman for not they just did they they just didn't want to do it, you know, they didn't want to put the work in. And I was like, oh okay, you know, well that was that was unfortunate, but you know, uh that's okay. They had they had a lot of other things going on in their life.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Like coking and drinking and playing in the band.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Who wanted to do anything? So that was that was before that, but but I think it was just sort of like they they they kind of were pissed that I took it upon myself to do it without kind of consulting them, you know, because it's kind of like, well, I can I can do it, you know. So okay, well then you're gonna do it kind of stuff. And it's like, oh okay. But yeah, that's all right. It's yeah, it turned out fine in the in the long run, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

So let's um let's bring part two to a close for our audience. We're with uh George Hornet, artist, past San Antonio resident, resident of Brooklyn, New York. And um we'll be rejoined by him for a part three. We're gonna we'll we'll swing over into a different world of San Antonio uh that branches off into other uh cultural relics, to say the least. We'll talk about Wonderland, we'll talk about Macrela's, we'll talk about uh joint effort on Broadway, we'll talk about all these different, you know, off card restaurants. Mr.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Natural. Yeah. I painted I painted a mural in Mr. Natural. That was fun.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Right. So, anyways, so we're gonna close here. Thank you for joining us here at Down in SA. And uh we'll be back with George right after this.