Never Give In! How Great Leaders Inspire Great Teams

What makes people keep going when the pressure is relentless, the stakes are high and there is no room to hide behind titles or hierarchy?

In this episode of The Great Business Podcast, Jennifer O’Donnell is joined by Major Scotty Mills, the highest ranking Black officer in the history of the Royal Marines. After more than three decades serving in some of the world’s most demanding environments, Scotty has gone on to work with elite sports teams, senior leaders, and organisations looking to understand what truly drives performance, trust, and resilience.

Together, they explore the realities of leadership when conditions are uncertain and pressure is constant. Not leadership as theory or management language, but leadership as culture, responsibility, and human connection.

From the mindset of the Royal Marines to the environments businesses create every day, this conversation looks at what happens when people feel part of something bigger than themselves. The role of belonging. The importance of standards. The difference between authority and trust. And why the strongest teams are often built long before the toughest moments arrive.

This is a conversation about resilience, identity, culture, and what it really takes to bring people together around a shared mission.

Because whether in the military, sport or business, great performance rarely comes from individuals alone. It comes from the strength of the team around them.

Thanks for listening to The Great Business Podcast.

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You can find more about The Great Business Company here:
 Website: www.thegreatbusinesscompany.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-great-business-company/

Thanks for listening to The Great Business Podcast.
If you enjoyed it, please follow the show so you don’t miss the next episode. And if you’ve got a minute, a quick rating or review really helps other people find us.

You can find more about The Great Business Company here:
Website: www.thegreatbusinesscompany.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-great-business-company/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Hello and welcome to episode five of the Great Business Podcast. Today I am really excited to welcome a guest whose story and experience has so much relevance for businesses of every size. Scotty Mills grew up in Peckham. I lived there for 20 years. In fact, I met his mum in the local chemist, which is also a post office. We're both in the queue. And that is how I got an intro to Scotty. He went on to build an absolutely extraordinary 32-year career in the Royal Marines, becoming the highest-ranking black officer in their history. And since then, he's become an internationally recognised speaker and leadership specialist, working with Southgate and the England team, as well as global organisations including Apple and Tesla. And he helps teams build resilience, trust, cohesion, and ultimately it's about high performance. But I what I think makes Scott's work especially relevant for our listeners is that these qualities in leadership aren't just important for elite sports or for large organisations. They play just as an important role for SMEs, for smaller businesses, even founders that are working on their own but working with smaller teams, using wider networks and collaborators, because the ability to bring people together around a shared purpose is absolutely critical and can often be the difference between a business that simply functions and one that thrives. I'm Jennifer O'Donnell, co-founder of the Great Business Company. We help businesses of all sizes build more sustainable and resilient organisations through our unique entry-level and foundational system that's designed to give businesses practical, easy-to-implement tools that support responsible long-term growth and help them prove those credentials to key stakeholders. In this podcast, we are asking one question: what makes a good business? What makes a great one? Scotty, welcome to the Great Business Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Well, thanks very much, Jane. It's lovely to see you again. Thanks for the wonderful introduction. Uh, and for inviting me on to come and speak on your podcast. It's really exciting. Uh, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

I always like to start at the beginning with my guests that come on. I'm interested in before the Marines and the England team and all that work um that you've done and all of the values that you now have. Do you think that that came from values that you had intrinsically when you were very young? Or did that come from the experiences that you have had developed and evolved through what you have done?

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I must have had some good in me somewhere along the line. I I would hope. I'd hope so anyway. You know, when I was a youngster, I was bounced around a little bit as a young person. Eventually landed with my nan and granddad, actually, who adopted me. Um, my granddad's like my spirit, my mentor, my best mate, my hero, really. Instead, I was falling into the trap, and you know where we live. Um, you know, the trap of the London gangs. I'm sure had I not inadvertently joined the Marines, then I'd have ended up joining a gang, go on drugs, go to prison, die early, common story, wasted life. How many times have we seen that, Jen? And each time, right? I was continually being told that it was unlikely I was going to be successful. People like me don't make much of their lives. And I was starting to believe it as a young person. I mean, you get told that as an adult, it really laughs quite heavily, doesn't it? It's only through my love of ice skating and roller skating, you know, that I joined the Marines. I think I was a pretty good person. There was some, there was some good in me, and I think some of that sort of central core of me knew that some of the scrapes that I was getting into was the wrong way to go, and I just needed a vehicle, an opportunity. So my nan and granddad had say that less than nothing, Jen. They'd say really hard for a couple of years for me to have these brown suede skates, bower skates, uh, burgundy leg warmer, two-tone jeans, Sergio Toshini tatsuit. I had afro so big, I once found a full-size HP pencil in it, I didn't even know it was there as a teenage kid. I love that. And then I was going down to go and do some skating and it started to rain. I didn't want to get my skates rusted because I had a bit of respect for them. The respect is always a good place to start. I had respect for them. So I dived into a shop, true story, and the shop that I dived into by accident was the Royal Marines recruiting office. And it's funny in life. Sometimes you turn left, or maybe you turn right, or maybe it rains, or it doesn't rain, and it changes the direction and the vector of your life. We've all had moments like that. So now I'm getting a tap on the shoulder from this green brace sergeant who's come out the recruiting office, and he he said to me, You look like a fit lad. Can you do pull-ups? So he's dragged me inside, I'm doing a few pull-ups, and he said to me something that was the total polar opposite of that messaging that I've been receiving today. He said to me, Young man, I see some potential in you. Have you ever thought of joining the Marines? So he gave me some paperwork. I went back to go and see the one person, the one person that I knew that had my back that didn't want anything from me. We all need to have that in our lives, don't we? My old granddad. I knew he'd served alongside some of the Marines in the war. And he said to me, Son, that is the longest and the hardest training in the world. But if you get through that and earn your Green Beret.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Have you got it there? Wow, amazing.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

It will change your life forever. I'll keep it close to me. And and you know, six months later I'll get an invitation down to the commando training center of the Royal Marines in Limpstone, near Devon's. It's a beautiful part of the world. But you're talking about values to me just now. When I walked in, I saw these instructors with their green berets, living their lives by a different metric to me. They were talking about humility and integrity. They were talking about striving for understated excellence. They were saying you leave your ego at the door, no blame, no excuses, no fears, no limits. I was hooked straight away. I mean, you speak to the youngest recruit all the way up to the oldest veteran, and anybody that served in the 361-year history of His Majesty's Royal Marines, they will instantly be able to tell you about our commando values, courage, determination, unselfishness, and cheerfulness, especially in the face of adversity. So why is it that the youngest, least experienced people of our organization can tell you about its spirit, its values, its qualities, its mindset, its ethos? Well, a couple of decades later I went on to go and be one of the officers in command of all the training as head of the government. What we do, we take those words off a poster on the wall and we place them within people, and we demand that those qualities, those bedrock values, become a way of life. Everything they do and everything we subsequently do is assessed against those qualities. And it becomes part of the discussion every day. And you know, as you go through the training, they teach and we listen, they coach and we practice, they mentor and we develop. And and as part of answering your question properly, those values, those qualities, they put people together with all these different characters Liverpool and Newcastle and South Wales and White and stuff like that. So different characters, but we develop the same mindset together, and that is based on the qualities, the values, the ethos that we get taught during our training. It means something to us, it gives you a sense of belonging. You're connected, you realise it's not just about Scotty, it's about bringing the team together, that fusion of effort, the fact that your collective performance will be so much higher than any one individual ever will. No matter how much of a superstar they are. And if they're a superstar and they got incredible amount of talent, that doesn't mean they're going to make a good Marine. Because in our book, Attitude trumps talent every single day. And you learn this, and they ask you to take responsibility, not just for yourself and your own performance, but for the performance of others. And you start to learn some of these leadership qualities at a very early age as well. When you get to the end of the training, the Marines saved the hardest for last, you know. You got to a point where you haven't got anything left physically or mentally or emotionally. And they throw in the four commando tests. First one, nine mile speed march, carrying all your kitten equipment. This is in the last week of training. Start as a team, finish as a team. If you don't get in in the time, and one fails, then you all fail together. Truly taking ownership and responsibility, not just for your own performance, but for the performance of others. The second one, tarzing an assault course, two assault courses together. One of them's 30 feet up in the trees, no safety equipment, no helmet, no ropes. If you fall out of the tree and land on your head, it's like a bad Monday at work. The third one is the endurance course, two and a half miles of underwater tunnels with obstacles such as Peterspool, the sheep dip, the crocodile bit. And the last one is our famous 30-mile march across the entirety of Dartmoor. Start as a team, finish as a team. One fail, all fail. The Marines demand that you complete each of those four commando tests at the end of the longest and the hardest training in the world on consecutive days. You get through that, you earn one of these. From that moment on, it it changes your life. And and you know, you realize that what you've just done, I mean, the Marines give you a weekend off after all that effort, which is really nice of them, in it. And and and it's not until you get home, you realise that actually what you've just done, albeit difficult, something you're very proud of, that was actually only just the job interview. Yeah, because now you're gonna be going on deployments and exercises and operations around the globe, jungles and mountains. Coldest I've ever been in, northern Svalbard with the wind chill, minus 76 degrees Celsius. It's chilly. I mean, come on, I'm a South London boy. Do I look like I'm supposed to be in minus 76? The floor, your eyes freeze together from the moisture, every part of your body has to be covered up, otherwise it's gonna turn black and die. What the Marines do, the Marines know. No matter what environment you get into, no matter what level you get into, I think I had 13 promotions during my time. The Marines had this thing called train hard to fight easy, putting so much work down here, you know, where you leave most guns unturned, where you have a to have attention to detail, when you can't cut any corners. Some of this stuff down here is boring, mundane, the pace is it. But you know that it must be done to the highest possible level so that you and your team can be ready when it matters, when it counts, up here. That's what people need right every single day, really. Because the means know that the greatest teams perform at their best when the pressure is at its highest, and the way that we do that, and this is some of the work that I do with businesses around the world now, we will do the things that others won't do to have the success that most people will never have. And that is the key for us because we can't put ourselves into a position on a battlefield where an enemy has one up on us as a as a as a marginal gain on us, because that's gonna then put my life and the life of my men and winning in danger. So we need to make sure that we've got a competitive edge and we grow every day, and we've got that open growth mindset. Talk about values, talk about spirit. Was it in there before? Maybe there was some potential, but the Marines identify that potential, and over the course of the entire career, they helped to grow it. I mean, I've probably done like 10 years worth of leadership training, developing those qualities, developing those mindsets, that ethos, and the skills required to be able to lead Britain's commandos around the globe. This young black kid from South London, with no chance in life, just an ordinary lad, nothing special about me. You know, I've been to 91 countries around the world, broken a world record, carried the Olympic flag at London in 2012, trained European world and Olympic champions. You know, I've dined in Buckingham Palace with the Queen, written a best-selling book, received a national award, and now I'm a global motivational speaker, inspiring businesses and teams to go from good to great to world class. And what if there's one thing that I've learned is that, you know, just keep reaching for the stars, keep growing every day, and one day those impossible dreams that I once had can actually come true.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Yeah, I do think that teamwork sometimes gets put to one side within businesses because they have other priorities, but it's so critical and hearing what you were saying about responsibility for others. I mean, that's quite interesting as well, because I can imagine a lot of the people that you aware with there with their age and what they wanted to achieve. There's a lot of competitiveness. But when you have to be responsible for somebody else and you start as a team as you end as a team, that competitiveness shifts and it moves into something else. And that is the development of real team cohesion.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Yeah. In the Marines, people want to get promoted, um, you know, and it is competitive, and you're competing against some of the best people in the country. I remember as a captain when I went to staff college to get promoted to a major. I mean, some of the people by my side who I was competing against are Oxford and Cambridge graduates with double first in chemical engineering and stuff, you know. I'm from Beckham. Um, and and when we're competitive, we do it in the right way. We do it through our actions about trying to demonstrate the best level of performance that we can. We don't do it at the detriment of others, we don't throw other people under the bus, we don't stab them in the back. We actually help each other and then let the Marines choose the people they want to promote. And we all shake each other's hand and congratulate each other on whoever gets promoted. And you know, we do it in the right way because we do it through our values, unselfishness is one of them. So it's never about just Scotty and my aspirations and be weird. Actually, we invest in each other, we make each other feel valued because we have a true sense of belonging, we're part of a family. Something you don't do to a family, you don't stab them in the back. You you don't tread over people to get to where you want them. Yeah, in businesses, you have workmates, in sports, you have teammates, but in the Marines we have brothers and we have a sister, and yeah, you are connected in such a special way with real part. Um a very high-performing team. The Marines have got a very strong reputation of building world-class teams, and how do you go from good to great to world-class? Well, now what does a world-class team look like? You have to ask yourself, Scotty Strand, are not inspirational leadership, teams that can come together, that have got strong values, that are resilient and can bounce back when things don't go to plan. That's some of the best teams that I've seen, not just in the Marines, not in sports as well, but also across businesses. And some, you know, I've had the opportunity to work with over 350 businesses in the last seven years across every industry, from pharmaceuticals to hospitality, retail to Apple to Tesla and BMW. I've worked with Slimming World and the Cabinet Office and all sorts, and and you know, Jen, it's really fascinating to see how all of these different organizations operate. It's always about the people, and I think people, I think teams now across industries are starting to understand even more. I'm seeing more and more of it that it's all about their people. I actively ask them, how do you recruit for business? And a few years ago when I asked, they'd say, well, we need people with the right skill set and qualifications and stuff. But now, interestingly, I'm starting to hear more about we want people with the right attitude, with strong values, because if they've got that central core of bedrock values within them, then they can teach them the skills afterwards. That's more about attitude because attitude trumps talent every single day, in my book.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

There is a real challenge for businesses now since COVID and hybrid working and a lot more remote working and people not actually being in front of each other. There is a risk there that team cohesion can pull back. And do you work with many organizations that operate in that kind of way? And how do you get them to still be able to be high performing when they've got that kind of business model?

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Yeah, yeah, what a great question. Um, something I've thought about quite a bit because I hear about teams with siloed working. I think that means that a large percentage of work from home. Um and and I was trying to understand the dynamic of that when I first heard about it. And that remote working seemed to be particularly helpful, and I think businesses and teams are starting to realize now that they run conferences and events, and they have and they find a way to bring their people together, sometimes in a social setting, sometimes over a conference setting. This is what we've done this year, this is the direction that we're going next year, this is our vision, our purpose, our our our value. And they bring their people together and they invite people like me along. Um, and they get the chance sometimes, even though they're in the same business, they might not have met before. And then connecting people face to face is so important.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Which raise the hand, you can have a glass of wine, you you can talk about some of the challenges you've had professionally or even personally as well. When you truly connect with people, I mean, there there's nothing like face-to-face, right? When you truly connect with people, then you build up relationships so much better. And I and I know that businesses and teams are trying to find every way they can to bring their workforce together, to bring them into the office, um, so so that they can connect better. Because when you build a relationship up with people like that, when you find some challenges or a challenge in your work, which you think, oh, I've not come across this before, I'm not sure how to deal with it. When you've got a couple of phone numbers of people that you can call that you met, that you had a beer with a few weeks ago or whatever, you say, Oh, have you ever been through this? I've maybe struggling. And and truly fusing that effort together, then, yeah, learning from each other's experiences and lessons, that's the way to go. And if you don't bring people together, they they sort of lose that, and then you lose that network that you've got that you can draw on when things aren't going right. And that seems to be a key.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Yeah, absolutely. I know my cousin's daughter, she got a job with a really well-known fashion brand, high-end first job, and um moved down from Northampton down to London, but was looking forward to the glamour as well, the the support, and and uh she felt there was real career progression, which is what she'd been promised. And then she ended up in an office with no management there. Um, I think it was just the IT department, and no support, no stating of values and objectives and goals, and she left within three months. She she she'd gone. But but you did what's very interesting, what you say also it's it is great to be in person, but you can create identity and team cohesion without actually being personally in the room because you've got brilliant stories that I've I've heard you tell before, which is around one of your colleagues and very good friends in the Marines who went across the Atlantic. The way in which a team spirit and start as a team, finish as a team was brought together within that is just such a great example of how we. Can mirror that in business if we're not connected in person?

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Yeah, I think you know, leaders set the tone in the environment for any organisation. When it's set properly, when people actually believe in what they're doing, when they feel valued, however it's done, when they see a leader who they respect, you know, if a little if a new boss comes in, I'm I'm thinking two things straight away. I've had this a few times with the Marines. Question one, do they know what they're doing? Question two, how can I trust them? When you've built trust, no matter in what way that it is, when you built trust with people like my good friend Lee Spencer, the worrying marine that I told you that smashed all these world records. When you do that, when you connect in such a way, then when things aren't going right, you don't have to be there all the time. It can just be a phone call, it can just be some sort of way of connecting. Like I did with him when he was in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, and he said that he was really struggling, he was alone, he felt alone and he felt scared. You know, asking me, Scotty, why am I doing this? And we're over the phone and we're um we're remotely chatting. Sometimes you just need to remind people how much they matter to you. How much you love them, and you can develop relationships like that within the workplace. You know, I spoke about brothers and sisters, right? And building those connections with people means that you've got trust, you understand people and empathy, you help them when they're going through difficult periods when they've got their own different challenges, which we all have all design. When my mate Lee was doing his row across the Atlantic, three and a half thousand miles with one leg, you know, bearing in mind, you know, the power from rowing comes from the legs. And, you know, he's in the middle of the Atlantic and he wasn't sure why he was doing it. He gave me a call and said, Scotty, mate, he said, remind me why I'm doing this. And I reminded him that everybody back home was cheering him on, that young kids were on rowing machines and they were doing a row. I started a row with lee campaign whereby we'd raise a few quid for our Marie charities, but also he had inspired the nation so much. There were 80 and 90-year-old women in in and men in care homes going on rowing machines, and I reminded him that he's not a we're rowing side by side with you, and it's about developing relationships. When we leave the Marines, we don't stop being Marines. You cut me open and I'm green, the same colour as my very inside, and those values remain the same, and it's come back to how you we started this conversation about those qualities and values. Is it something you can learn or something that's innately innately in you? Well, I Scottish perception of it. You're talking about leadership qualities, you're talking about set of zoning conditions, you're talking about bedrock values, you're talking about your ability to be able to be resilient and to bounce back. And and these qualities and values mean something, they're brought to life, and it gives you that sense of belonging, which is connected to that organization forever.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

So, would you say that true inspirational leadership starts with values and that you are very clear about what those are? Because the work that we do at the great business companies, it that's that's our kind of starting point. Because what you find with a lot of SMEs, I mean, the old traditional way was mission, vision, and values, and and we kind of work with a version of that that we call purpose. What's your purpose? What's the way you want to deliver it, and what impact do you want to have in the world, and that governance and how they run their business starts with that, and that any decision making that is made within the business across every single level refers back to those values to ensure that you're living through them and delivering through them within the business and for your clients and for any other stakeholders. How do you do that? What's the approach with the businesses that you work with?

SPEAKER_01 26:17

I speak to all about my experiences in the Marines, and I say, look, you know, those qualities, those values, uh they become part of the everyday conversation for us, right? They're not just words on a poster on the wall, they're not just the CEO's mission statement and vision. And and oftentimes they change them every year. And I go into conferences and and and you know, I speak to the people that are around the corner that that are attending the conference, and I say, look, do you know what the values of the business are? And I'd probably say about five percent, probably can name one or two of them. That's interesting. It's rare that anybody turns around to me and says, Scotty, I can tell you exactly what the values of our organization are, right? It seems to be fairly common that those organizations aren't living through those values. You want to talk about how do you go from good to great? Well, when you start hearing back from your people, the people you have the privilege to lead, and you start hearing them using some of those qualities and values, not just in what they say, but with what they do as well. They show unselfish behaviour, they show some determination, they show some teen effort and unity, they demonstrate some resilience, and it's part of the conversation. When you start hearing it back, and you know that it's starting to land on people.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

And someone gave me a fantastic piece of advice. Scotty, as a leader, be the standard that everybody wants to be. Set that standard, and in first of all, start by inspiring your people every day in some way.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

I know it's not always easy to do that, but you can do it. And by inspiring people, then they listen to you, and things just land on them a little bit better. Of course, when things land on people, you're able to engage with them. So inspire, then engage. If you try to engage without the inspire bit, things just won't land on people, right? And they won't be able to tell you what the qualities and the values are, right? But you inspire them first, then they're listening, then they feel valued, then they feel a sense of connection, and they're like, okay, this leader might have something to say. Yeah. And then you engage with them. And then when you engage with people, things are landing on the better, then you can help them to change and help them to develop. Inspire, engage, and change.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

Just on inspiring. So you worked with Gareth Southgate's England team, and Gareth Southgate really inspired not only that team, but he got the nation behind that team in a way in which we haven't seen with an England football team for a long time. What was that inspirational quality that he had that we can learn from in business, no matter what size business we are?

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Geth exhibits some of the leadership qualities that are the some of the best that I've seen, aligned with some of my main mentors that I've had. And he he reminds me of many of them. You know, when the team's not doing so well, right, you'll see Gov in front of the media facing the pressure because he knows that he's going to take ownership and responsibility of the situation. He'll say, Look, I chose the team, I chose the tactics, it's down to me because he's taken the pressure off of his team. Okay, team didn't play so well, but he wants to take the pressure off them because he knows that they're young, and he knows that that weight of pressure, that expectation of the weight of a nation, the media scrutiny and the like will crush them. I mean, they're great footballers in the practice, but when you put the pressure on them, like too much pressure on young shoulders, they're not able to replicate their skill. So Gareth understood that, and he takes responsibility for the actions of his team, as every good leadership. But then he goes to the next level. So when the team are doing really well and finding some success, you won't see Gareth much in front of the cameras. You won't see him at all because he'll be hiding in the shadows and he'll be pushing his team forwards into the limelight to take the credit, to take the plaudits. Truly selfless behaviour. I would love to see more leaders like that who put their people first. And I'd quite like to see some leaders like that in Westminster, wouldn't you? Maybe it's becoming if I did, if I did, I would follow them.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I mean, you've said so much, just listening to you, Scotty. It's like I I can feel it having an effect on me. You know, inspire, engage, values, humility, it's all linked as well to identity. And I just want to finish on this thought because I want to thank you. After the last time that we spoke, my daughter, um, they're not together anymore, but she had a boyfriend, local boy from Peckham, and didn't have the same support that my kids have have had. And I was chatting to him and telling him about you and what you did, and then I said, and he said to me, you know, just by telling a kid dare to dream, just by telling them that, it gives them that confidence in themselves. And he's gone on to Manchester University and he's doing what he wanted to do in film um and TV studies, and I you know, whether or not that had the impact that made him do that, but he really listened to what I said, so you know, making a difference all the time.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

How amazing, and it's why we do this work, right, Jen.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Try to inspire others that they too can achieve their impossible dreams.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Yeah, and the ripple effect of that, you can never underestimate it.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

No, well, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me along.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Thank you so much, Scotty. The Great Business Podcast is out on the last Tuesday of every month. Thank you so much to my guest, Scotty, and um, hopefully we will speak again soon. Thanks, Scotty.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Pleasure. Cheer with me.