Healing After Narcissistic Abuse: Trauma Bonds, Gaslighting, and Rebuilding Self Trust

🎙 Episode Notes

Healing After Narcissistic Abuse: Trauma Bonds, Gaslighting, and Rebuilding Self Trust

In this episode of Beyond Mommy Dearest, host Noelani Pearl Hernandez sits down with Laura Richards, international podcaster, speaker, and #1 bestselling author of Married To A “Nice” Guy: Getting Over Narcissistic Abuse.

Laura Richards shares her personal recovery journey after a 32-year marriage to a narcissistic partner and names the patterns many survivors live inside for years without having language for. Together, Noelani and Laura explore how narcissistic relationships form, how they escalate, why they are so difficult to leave, and what healing actually requires on a nervous system level.

This conversation addresses love bombing, future faking, mirroring, boundary violations, intermittent reinforcement, trauma bonding, and the long-term effects of gaslighting. They also talk about shame, grief, rebuilding self-trust, setting boundaries, and how survivors can begin creating a life that feels safe, steady, and their own.'

🧠 Topics We Cover in this episode

• Early signs of narcissistic relationships
• Trauma bonding and intermittent reinforcement
• Why survivors struggle with decision-making after abuse
• Nervous system dysregulation and hypervigilance
• Boundaries and self-love as protection
• Grieving the life you thought you would have
• Breaking generational cycles

This episode is for anyone who has questioned their reality, blamed themselves for staying, or wondered if it was “really that bad.”

You do not need permission to leave.
 Your body’s no is enough.
 Healing is possible.

💛 Work With Noelani / Beyond Mommy Dearest

• Coming Home to Yourself Guided Support Program
   https://www.beyondmommydearest.org/supportgroup
• Instagram
   https://www.instagram.com/beyondmommydearest
• Podcast Page
   https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beyond-mommy-dearest-podcast/id1871995241

⭐ Guest Bio: Laura Richards

Laura Richards is an international podcaster, #1 bestselling author, and speaker dedicated to empowering women. Through her global podcast, That’s Where I’m At, and her bestselling book Married To A “Nice” Guy: Getting Over Narcissistic Abuse, Laura shares her personal journey of recovery from a 32-year marriage to a narcissist.

Laura’s mission is to shine a light on narcissistic abuse and remind women they are never alone and healing is always possible.

🔗 Connect with Laura Richards

Instagram
 https://www.instagram.com/thatswhereimatpodcast/

YouTube
 https://www.youtube.com/@thatswhereimatpodcast

Facebook
 https://www.facebook.com/thatswhereimatpod/

Website
 https://www.thatswhereimatpodcast.com/

Podcast

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thats-where-im-at/id1704083491

📚 Laura Richards’ Book

Married To A “Nice” Guy: Getting Over Narcissistic Abuse
Available on Amazon and major book retailers.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:30

The Beyond Company Bears podcast. This is a podcast for people who grew up in families that looked functional on the outside but felt confusing, heavy, or unsafe on the inside. Being the daughter of a narcissistic parent doesn't stay neatly contained in childhood. It quietly shapes how you show up at the workplace, and especially in environments where power is uneven, communication is unclear, or emotional labor is expected, but not named. Today we're naming something very important. Narcissistic abuse doesn't just happen in families. It happens anywhere power benefits from confusion, silence, and self-doubt. If you grew up with a narcissistic parent, you were likely trained early to monitor moods, anticipate reactions, and keep the peace. In the workplace, this often shows up as hypervigilance, and you read the room indistinctively. You sense a tone before others do. While this can look like emotional intelligence, it often comes at a cost. Your nervous system is working overtime, scanning for threats, not because you're dramatic, but because unpredictability once meant danger. Today's conversation is for anyone who's ever questioned their reality inside a relationship. Felt themselves shrinking to keep the peace or carry the quiet exhaustion of loving someone who required constant accommodation. I'm honored to welcome Laura Richards from That's Where I'm At, a podcast and platform that speaks directly to survivors of narcissistic and emotional abuse relationships with honesty, clarity, and compassion. Laura brings a rare combination of lived experience and deep insight. After spending decades in a narcissistic relationship, she didn't just leave, she rebuilt. She named what happened. She confronted the cost of silence and she created a space where survivors aren't asked to minimize, reframe, or forgive prematurely, but instead they're invited to understand what actually happened to them and why feeling can be so disoriented. What makes Laura's work so powerful is that it doesn't romanticize recovery, it tells the truth about grief, the nervous system failed, the identity confusion, and the long road back to self-trust. Her podcast has become a lifeline for people navigating the aftermath of narcissistic abuse, whether they're freshly out of it, still disentangling it, or years into rebuilding. Today we're going to talk specifically about how narcissistic relationships form, how they function, and why it's so hard to leave and what healing actually requires after the relationship ends. This is not labeling for the sake of blame. It's about clarity, safety, and reclaiming yourself. So welcome, Laura. I'm so glad you're here.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

That was a really nice intro. Thank you. I I want to say that you see me because that's how I felt because I you saw what I'm doing. You see what I'm doing. So thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

I well, you know, I think it's really important, especially for narcissistic abuse survivors, to know that they are seen because for so long they've been gaslit. And I think that it is an important thing that we always kind of, you know, really get ourselves in that mode to know that we are seen constantly. And when you're looking back now at your relationship, you know, for me, my first narcissistic abuse relationship was with my mother. Um, for you, it was with your um ex-husband. And what were those earliest signs that you were in a narcissistic relationship? Even if you didn't have the language at the time to say that you were.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Yeah, for sure. I didn't have the language. And uh it probably wasn't my first. Probably wasn't my first one. I saw a lot of patterns in my family. So um yeah. So that's how sometimes we get into it. You know, when we do the healing, we have to go all the way back. We're we're going to, and if we don't look, we don't have to live there, we don't have to re-traumatize ourselves, but we do need to look at it. And there are, you know, there are people, professionals, who will help you with that where you don't have because people are like, I don't want to look at it. I'm like, yeah, but it's affecting your life. At least look at it for a second. So, you know, the thing for me was that we rushed to the altar. Okay. So that was that's the biggest thing is that narcissists like to go fast before you can really see the mask that they are wearing. Um, because they they are love bombing you, which is like doing all the things, saying all the saying all the words that we want to hear. I mean, whatever, you know, the saying all the things that we want to hear, and you know, maybe buying gifts and all that, but they might say I love you really fast, and they all these things, and you know, like we slept together really fast, all that thing. Okay, that morality aside, that is just like messing with our chemicals and in our brains. And so I wasn't making any good decisions with that. And also, he was telling me that oh, you want kids? Do you want to get married and have kids? I want to get married and have kids, and so it's promising you the dream. So it's that love bombing really going fast, and then the future faking, which it doesn't necessarily mean they're faking, you know, giving you a family and stuff like that, but they definitely will talk about the future to like sell you the dream. And I see that from the very beginning, and um so I feel like I was groomed because I was his friend the way he groomed his his current wife. Um, she was our friend, and you know, the minute we were well, probably before, but the minute we were divorced, they were together and they're married now. And it's like I see a pattern. And he did exact, you know, like the amount of time and how quickly um he took me to the altar and stuff is what he did to her. So like they all have a pattern. They all have a pattern. Some people say that they took a little longer with theirs, but most of the time they rush, like you're married right away, or you're they're saying I love you right away. They're really getting you to hang on immediately.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Well, and I think that you can you kind of mention it that it probably wasn't your first. And I think for me, yeah, it you know, you get really set up when you're in those family systems where there's a narcissist, whether it's a primary caregiver, meaning your mom, your dad, or somebody you're you are, you know, really close with, and that love bombing fills that hole that you have, exactly that hole of you know your insecurity or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

And I I have a deep need to be loved, so it's right. He's telling me all these things about love. I'm like, great, of course. I believed every bit, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:33

And and what I have found, um, and you know, the beauty of finding a relationship after you've done a lot of healing, yeah, and with my husband now is there's that, you know, that balance of responsibility. So we both carry that emotional labor. Wow. When anything around us happens, right? We can anticipate each other's moods, right? Sometimes I just have like a cinnamon roll in front of me because maybe I'm having an off day or something's frustrated. And when there's a tension, we both fix it. Like we jump up. Now, some of that might be because we're our people pleasers, but I think a lot of it has to do with we're in a healthy relationship and yeah, both of us did that work to get to that place.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

I love that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

I think the other thing is um, and I don't know if you noticed this, but I think with well, in my experience, narcissists really look at boundaries and they're like, nope, and they push them to the side.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Well, they just it's just talking about like, oh, that's a boundary. Great, tell me where it is so I can step over it because I'm not gonna follow it.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Right. Where's the boundary? Let me go and run right through it really quickly. Um I think that, you know, when many survivors start talking about or they start talking about the abuse out loud, is they notice like the subtleties of it.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

So how do narcissistic relationships typically hook their people before all out control becomes so obvious?

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Yeah, it's so insidious. So it's a little bit at a time, you know. Um the it's the boiling frog syndrome where the frog doesn't realize that the heat in the water is being turned up and then all of a sudden it's being boiled alive. And it's also been called death by a thousand cuts, where we just it's a little bit at a time. So you don't always notice it because it starts with things that we really like, like the love bombing, talking about the future. Um, you know, we had been friends for a long time. So he's like, why do we want to wait to get married? Let's get married, and it's like you know, and so it all sounds good and it feels good. And so that's why I always say to people, like, slow down. Okay, so because you're not going to notice what's going on, they can only hold on for so long. Um, you're not gonna really know maybe some of their deep dark secrets and even their mood swings, things like that, unless you spend time with them. And so that's why the biggest thing is slowing down and taking your time and really not to test people, but to get into situations that see how they treat the waiter, maybe when you show up late for a date, things like that, like how do they react? Because you want to try and see their true colors. Now they are master manipulators, so who knows? But I just that's the thing for me. You cannot always tell, especially with a covert narcissist. Okay, now a malignant narcissist, he's telling you he's the greatest thing that's ever lived, right? And everybody loves him and all that, and so those are a little easier to spot. But we can get so trauma bonded so quickly that that's why people stay for so long. That's why I stayed for 33 years, not for fun, because I was trauma bonded. Our our brain is reacting to the intermittent reinforcement of here's a here's a little, you know, it's like a slot machine. I know it's gonna be good again. I know it is because it was good before, just like a slot machine, and that's what you hold on to. So it's so easy to get to get connected. So a covert narcissist, they're one way at home, one way out in public. That's why I named my book Married to a Nice Guy. Um, because everybody thought he was so nice. And I was like, Right, what where?

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Tell me. Well, and it's really interesting. Well, it is really confusing, and you know, especially when that covert narcissist is apparent. So for me, again, my mom was a covert narcissist, so everyone always said, Oh, she's so nice, your mom's so great, oh, she always does these things. And and I was always shocked because I never got that when I was at home. Right. That was never what I got. And and I when you're talking about, you know, that that speed that narcissists develop the relationship, they really focus on that manufactured intimacy and they focus on the science, right? When you're in a relationship, it's like concept, boom, boom, boom, boom. The you know, endorphins are going. And uh waiting gives you the time to then say, okay, right, is this really a romantic relationship? Is this really a long-term relationship? Yeah, and for many people, they don't, they just go, they don't care.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Right. And I want to say something that somebody may not want to hear, but you're actually falling in love with yourself because they are mirroring you. So they're mirroring you, and you know, all of a sudden everything that you like, they like, and you know, or everything you, you know, you like, they like, and they have the same dreams and all these things. And I don't know that they really know what love is, especially if it if they are they're not gonna get diagnosed, you know. That's why the numbers are so low because a diagnosed narcissist is an oxymoron. I mean, they're not gonna go anywhere near a therapist who's gonna diagnose them, but I can um I can honestly say that mine is a narcissist just by I can just check it off on the list, you know. Yes, exactly. You know, he's he's got all the uh yeah, the whole thing on the checklist. And excuse me. Um so where were we?

SPEAKER_01 13:24

No, it's it it really, you're really right when it talks about them being a chameleon, right? Oh yeah, like yeah, what the things that they love, it it doesn't make sense. Like all of a sudden they start dressing a certain way or they start doing it.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

That whole mirror, that's where I was the whole mirroring you, and I oh, I I didn't want to hear that, and I didn't I don't know, think that anybody wants to hear that, but you're falling in love with yourself. That's why it seems like the perfect Prince Charming coming to save you. Okay, that's why, because they are mirroring you, and they don't go after people who aren't, you know, great, they go after these high achieving women. I mean, anybody can get caught up in it, but they really want the high achieving women because and I'm talking uh men and women in this instance, but and very heteronormative, but you know, fill it in however you want. The statistics show that nurses are often men. That's what the statistics show. And you know, and so it's hard because we're we we are these strong women and they're attracted to that because they want to feed off of us. They're look, I don't talk nicely at all about them. I will talk probably later. I will give you about five seconds of sympathy, and then that's it for them, and that's it because they are they're monsters who pray who prey on people who are just looking for love.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Well, and you know, to go back on the statistics, because narcissists don't ever go to therapy, right? And they don't ever admit that they're narcissists, it's always hard for people to hear that women as mothers become narcissists. Yes, exactly. And it's a very to me, it's really interesting when we talk about those relationships. What I want to say for someone who's listening is you weren't weak and you weren't naive and you weren't bad at choosing. They have a system that gradually escalates and it's not instant exposure. So it's not you, yes, but you can, as you build um and you heal, put in um stop signs for yourself.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Well, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

And you're gonna learn right.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

The boundary we're gonna learn boundaries, we're gonna learn how to love ourselves, which frankly, boundaries and loving yourself are gonna go hand in hand. When I learned those two things, oh, I repelled a lot of people because Laura Laura with boundaries didn't make any sense to anybody because you can like your you can like yourself, you can work on your self-esteem, but boy, if you tell people, you know, don't treat me this way, or I'm going to walk away, um, they don't like that. And yeah, but that's the biggest thing. And let me tell you, you being that way, boundaries and loving yourself, oh, it'll repel all the narcissists in the whole world.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Oh, yeah, a hundred percent. Why do you um why do narcissistic partners often present as charming or generous or even wounded in the beginning? And how does that play into trauma bonding?

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Yeah, so you you know, that whole wounding thing, sometimes they have a story of abuse in their past, like say child abuse or something like that, or they talk about something that happened maybe in their childhood. And that's really to prey on us and our, you know, empathetic nature, because a lot of times they can, I swear they can smell it out. You know, they we often we're like, we're the givers, we're the second chance, we're the second chance givers, you know, all those kinds of things. We are empathetic and they'll tell us a sad story, and we'll be like, Oh yeah, you know, and they probably think they're that person's gonna help me, and they wanna reel us in with that. And I do hear that sometimes from women. It's like I didn't want to leave him because of this. I'm like, okay, but he's a grown ass, he's a grown ass adult, he made a choice. Yeah, we've we've all had something in our childhood, and some of us decided to go to therapy rather than abuse people, and that's why in the and what I was saying earlier, this is the only time you're gonna hear so don't okay. This is it. This is the five seconds you can get of empathy. You know, I have empathy for that six-year-old little boy who wanted his mommy's love, but she would not she could not give it to him, and she would not give it to him, and that made him emotionally neglected and created the narcissist. That's what I saw in my ex and what often happens in um in in men, really, maybe in women too, but in men for sure. And so I have empathy for that six-year-old little boy, but not for the grown-ass adult who could have gone to therapy instead of abusing people. And so I used to not understand like how can I have hold both things? You can hold both thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

You're allowed to hold things to be true.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Yes, you're allowed to hold these both these thoughts, and a lot of people want to stay because of that wounded child. Uh no, we don't need to help them, that's not our job. Um, I know we've been societalized and told that it is our job, it is not our job. So if you need permission to quit that job, you can.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

You can't and you know, I often find um uh when I first started my healing in regards to my mother, my mother came from the Philippines. So I often said, Oh, the immigration or her dad passed away at a really early age. Okay, yeah, and when I thought about it and I said, you know, and here's my five seconds, that's really sad that all those things happened. Of course. I was abused by a narcissist, and I'm a fantastic mother to my four children. Like, I don't like I can make that decision. There's a fork in the road that you come to. Either you're gonna be a crazy ass narcissist or you're gonna not be. And you can go this road where you're not be, and it's hard. And you might, you know, there might be things where you short circuit, but you are not that person, right? You know, when you do that feeling.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

You know, not only that, that not your other choice. Yes, you can either become a narcissist or actually you can become a cycle breaker. And that to me is so powerful. And why so many of us are doing this work, we might be the parentified eldest daughter. Hello, and you know, we might be just like so many of us, the black sheep, the scapegoated child, you know, all these things. Look, we're in a club and it's the cycle breaker club. And I'm breaking the cycle because when um, you know, I had so much healing with my kids, my kids were grown when we got divorced, but look, they were all damaged from stuff that I didn't know they were seeing, right? And really from just the person I was because I had a lot of reactive rage because I was being abused and manipulated. And so I didn't know I wasn't, I was just in survival, full survival. So we've had so much healing with my grown kids. I've apologized to them, they've apologized to me, and it's never too late to do that. And so you have to humble yourself, frankly, to do that. But it's worth it because you know, like I have a granddaughter now. I'm looking at her, I'm like, I'm doing this for you. Like, I'm not, you will not walk into this world thinking that you're less than anything, you know, because not that she has to be the queen of the world, but yes, she is because she's my granddaughter. Of course she's like, I know I'm not gonna put too much pressure on her, she's the greatest thing ever. But how do you look into the face of somebody like that, a little baby, and say, like, yeah, we're gonna keep the abuse going? No, I'm gonna break the cycle.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yeah. Well, and that for me is you know, the and I want to say that it's never too late to apologize.

SPEAKER_03 21:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

If you were a um a survivor of that narcissistic abuse, and during that time while you were in it, that there were things that happened as a result of it. What makes you not a narcissist is being able to apologize for it.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

Exactly. And even caring what happened to your kids. I have a I have a friend who was manipulated by uh actually a friend, because you know, narcissists are everywhere, it could be even in a friendship. Yeah, she went through a friendship and she said, She said, I'm the narcissist. And I said, Yeah, and are you concerned about that? And she's like, Yeah, can you tell me like what the checklist should be so I can tell? I go, Well, number one, you care. So you're not one.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Yeah, that's often a question in the group that I admin on Facebook where we have 7,000 women in there who were daughters of narcissists. The one often gets put up is Am I a narcissist?

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

And my first response is if you're asking you. Probably are not.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Right. Yes, exactly. Because you're you're actually going out of your way to have introspection and say, like, can somebody tell me? I remember when I remember right at the beginning of my healing, he said that I was the narcissist. And when I found out what narcissistic abuse was and stuff, because I really didn't find out until like three months after I didn't understand. I was starting to unravel it all. Like, what the hell, what the hell just happened to me? You know, but I was starting to unravel it all. And then I found out what it was, and he called me a narcissist, and I was still not healed enough. And I went home and I was like, Am I? Am I you know, but I figured that out right away by Googling that and really doing more research. Like, no, I'm not. That's what they say, that's what narcissists say. It's that you're the well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

Well, and you know, understanding what a narcissist is doesn't erase the pain. So they are constantly like looking to that, and yeah, but what it does do is it loosens that shame that's tied around you, and shame is one of the strongest chains in a trauma bond. And as shame decreases, that clarity grows so much, and once the clarity is there, then you're free.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

I'm telling you, and this is the biggest thing, and you even I might even say, like, even right before that, when we talk about it, shame is broken, and this is why they often don't want you to talk about it. How many times have you heard? I he doesn't want me to say anything, he gets mad that I'm talking about it. Why is he getting mad? Well, I mean, is it true? Oh, is that why you're getting mad? And those kinds of things. So when I was first uh divorced, okay, so nothing happened for a few months, about six months. Well, okay, so three months after we were divorced, I found out he was dating this woman that I thought he had been dating during our marriage, and that gave me the download. And so many people talk about this. They have like a wake-up call, like a download. It's like fireworks, you know, like all of a sudden, it's like the beautiful mind, all this stuff is happening. And I saw narcissism and I was like, Oh my god, this is what's been happening to me. So I was starting to understand, and I had a name for my pain. So I started to talk about it. I started out with petty videos on Facebook, which was great. It was very healing to me. They're great. I still love it. Whatever works, whatever works. Yeah, I was so mad because frankly, I was like, You've been lying to me for this many decades, like seriously. I was so angry because I up until that point, I was protecting him. You can tell by something, like some videos I was making. I'm like, oh, poor Laura, she didn't even know anything yet, right? Because I was being so I was being so nice. Yeah, and then I was like, RAR. Yeah, you know, I was like so angry. Yeah, and that that just needed to happen. And absolutely, you know, we have to get it out. But what I had people telling me is not to talk about it, and I didn't understand that. And I still was I wasn't in the abuse spaces yet, so I didn't understand like why why do people tell you not to talk about it? Whatever. But the minute we talk about it, shame is broken. And the I don't know about you, but for me, that was a big thing. I was in so much shame. I'm like, how did I let this happen for so long? Like, how yeah, it was huge.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Yeah, for me, you know, I I the my first experience where I called it out was my mom, my grandfather had died, and my grandfather was a huge, like huge, huge um part of my life. And we were at, and this was not her grand, not her dad, but my dad's dad. And she um went to the funeral, and my husband, gorgeous, 6'3, came. It was the first time he was meeting my family, and my mom is about 4'10, and he walked up. It was going to be the first time that he would meet her. And he walked up to her and she stood on her tippy toes and put her hand in his face and said, I don't want to talk to you. I only want to talk to my daughter. At a funeral, and I was like, Oh my god, woman, what are you doing? Right. And and at that point, I couldn't just say, Oh, that's my mom. Yeah, oh, that's you know, you you just you gotta do like that's my mom. And I had to really come to a reckoning of, am I going to let this person who birthed me ruin the best relationship I've ever been in? Someone who understands me, someone where he and I had sat down and said, Okay, we're gonna move forward. I have kids, you have kids, is this gonna work? You know, we put a lot of adult thought into this, right? And I said, Oh, hell no, she's not gonna do that. And then a couple months later, she and I, um, so she and I, I had bought my car probably three or four years before um my husband and I started dating. And my mom said, Oh, I'm I'm taking care of the last payments for you as a surprise for your graduation. I was like, Great, awesome. I was at um my husband, who was then my boyfriend's house.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

And I woke up, my car was gone.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

And I was like, Where is my car?

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Wait, was it repossessed, or was it or did she take it?

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Yes, it was repossessed.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

And I was like, Oh, they all have the same playbook. Like it's the same playbook, yeah. And it was interesting because the next time there were two other times where more shame was lifted. The next time was a cousin of mine, second cousin, set um, she and I connected recently. My grandfather has been, it's been 10 years since he's passed. And she said, Oh, do you stay in contact with your mom? I said, No, you know, my mom's a crazy narcissist. Uh, she, you know, no that no. And she said, you know, it's really interesting. She's a therapist, this cousin. She said, I totally could tell.

SPEAKER_03 28:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

And I was like, Oh my gosh, shamelifted. And then as um, we were talking to our adult children, we were talking about relationships. And I had mentioned that my mom had repoed my car to the kids, and it was the first time I said, That's why you've never met her to my bonus kids, because that I need to keep that away from you. It's dangerous, exactly. And yeah, and all an example of what she it they it was very freeing for me. I don't know if they understand that, but it's that okay, we're gonna end that cycle here.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

There's something that's the thing, is that there's something about setting that boundary and going no contact and really because I have no contact with my family. Some of it is not by choice, but but it's okay because I it's the whole family is toxic. Some of us have dealt with things, some of us haven't. Again, I I can sympathize, I see things that happened in our family. Frankly, I went to therapy. Um you know, and and I would get made fun of for going to therapy and talking about therapy. Classic. Yes, yeah, right. It is so classic. And it's like almost like you think you're better than us, or it's like, do they think we're gonna force them to go to therapy? Which frankly they all should, but but I won't do that. Yeah, I'm not gonna, but I never did. I just would talk about anytime I'd go like, well, in therapy, I was talking about this. Oh god, you and therapy, right? And I was like, What? You know, so that's where that's where, and this is the hard part when you start to learn how to love yourself and set boundaries. Like people the people who are not meant to be in your life because they only see you a certain way, especially family, right? They only see you at a at the age where they had the most control over you. Yes. So you know, 55, 56-year-old Laura at that time uh with boundaries didn't make sense. Like they were like, No, no, we need to go back to when you like let us say and do whatever we wanted to do. And I was like, I didn't leave my marriage to now be in a more abusive relationship. So you know, so that's why it's like it wasn't the first one. And when we often start to unravel if we were in an abusive relationship, this is not to shame anybody, this is to see where were the patterns because we don't blame for abuse, but so but we look at ourselves and say, I always use a circus theme because that's what I what I use. And it's like, why do we keep choosing the clowns? Why do the clowns keep choosing us? And why do we keep showing up to the circus? Not that yes, we do get something out of it, but also we haven't learned how to unravel those patterns, we haven't learned that yet.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Right. Well, and you know, one of the things that's really beautiful when you go non-contact with your family, and if you have a partner is when you have a chosen family, you can it could be friends, and I'm not saying this because my mother-in-law might be listening to this, but my mother-in-law is wonderful, and I and for me, that chosen family has really brought me out of that kind of shame dome to then come out to who I really am, and that you know it's a wide open lane from there. You can do whatever you want, and one of the things that I chose that we chose to do, like helping leaders create really great nonprofits, but also this is helping people understand that you that the cycle that was engineered for you for you doesn't need to be the cycle that you're on.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

Yes, you don't have to you don't have to stay this way. If anybody watches Abbott Elementary, they had a very small scene. I don't know if you watched it, I don't even know if it was this week, I don't know when it was, but there was a very small scene, and they were she was talking about this is what I do. We give the silent treatment, and oh yeah, yeah, and yeah, the count the school counselor was like, Okay, you know, like just this is what my mother did and her mother. Yeah, it's like feel free to break it right now. Like, you don't have to do that. There will be the sometimes there will be pushback, but again, you know, with your family because they only see you a certain way, and I oh for sure with the nurses. Like, I was sent to therapy because I was a terrible mother and there were things wrong with me, and I was also trying to hold him accountable for things, and so he's like, if you have a problem, you need to go to therapy to talk about it. I was like, Okay, so I did, and that's where I found my voice, right? And and that's where he started to see, like, oh, she's getting strong and all those things. It's so weird to me. I said, right, it's right. All the oh my gosh, so many years of therapy, so many years of therapy of myself. Every once in a while, we would go as uh it together, but you you cannot do that if you think you're an abuse because there's an imbalance of power, and I was always the one who was put on meds, I was the problem, I was being too picky, or or hello, I'm holding you accountable for things, and it was so many times about women and also the way he was treating me, and also the gaslighting. See, I didn't know I was being gaslit. There was so much, so basically, he was gaslighting me, and I felt like I was going crazy. I wanted to check myself in somewhere because I said, I feel like I'm going crazy. And I have heard this, I've heard this from so many women, and it's it's so sad, you know. But we're you're not going crazy.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

No, no. Well, and I I think that you know uh I hear what you're saying, and I hear that happening with kids too.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

So kids are put on medication, they're forced to do certain things, they do all these things because their mother is either gaining attention from that, which is the Munchausen by proxy, which we'll go into different in a different episode, but there's also they're gaslighting you, they are or when they try to cur, like my mom did that. Oh, your dad left us. I was like, he didn't leave me, you left you.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

Yes, and those were you know, the thing is words are so powerful, and you don't realize I can tell you, I can tell you uh what age I was when my dad called me fat. You know what I mean? Like those kinds of things. It's like, am I supposed to be like encouraged from this, you know? Right. And and I hate that because like society is already feeding us enough negativity to have you know your parent do that as well. But oftentimes, especially with a narcissistic, they you're an extension of them, right? Yes, and you're representing them somehow. And you know, look at my my child who has done these wonderful things, whatever. So I guess at 12 I was too fat, apparently. No, you weren't. No, I wasn't. No, but that's it, it's always that's why we have to be very careful. Like, even when we're when I'm working with women and we're learning to build our self-esteem. I'm like, when sometimes even with my friends who like are my age, we're in our 50s, and they'll say something, and I'll be like, whose voice is that? Like, who who do you hear when you say, Oh, I don't like the way I look? Like, number one, you you look like a model right now, so I'm confused. So, like, who's voice? That's what we work on is like whose voice do you hear, or whose voice do you hear when you look in the mirror? Right. Um, you know, your mom telling you you're you don't look pretty enough, you you're thin enough, those kinds of things. And so we have to be uh very careful because sometimes that's it's not even our own inner voice, it's somebody else's. And guess what? We do not have to continue carrying it, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:41

Well, and and it's it's a difficult thing too in society now where yeah, uh there's filters and people are catfishing people, and there's like people do not look like that normally, like there are real, like a fifth, like I'm turning 50 and um next year, and 50-year-olds now, like you, and the way you look, we look like we're in our 30s, like this is a whole different thing, and but but we're never gonna look like we're in our 20s with our skin super smooth and all of those things, but like it's projected on TV. Like what I often tell my kids is they have amazing makeup artists, right? There's tapes and various other things, and I'm sure that I would look like a supermodel if I had millions and millions of dollars to do plastic surgery and all those things, I would look snatched. I mean, that's just the way that it is exactly.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

Well, we have been societalized so much for these kinds of things, so that's why we have to be really careful. I can only honestly say, like, I'm almost 59. So and I amazing. Well, thank you. Well, because I got rid of the abuser, and I actually enjoy, and frankly, that's what I was working on is from the inside out, and it was it's not necessarily I did a video on like before and after, and it's like it wasn't like some big weight loss or anything. No, it wasn't literally my light came back into my eyes because I wasn't wanting to die. And this is the thing that we have to remember is when we're saying I wish I looked XYZ, who told you that? Did society tell you that or whatever? Because sometimes, like, oh, I don't like the way my neck looks in this picture. It's like, okay, well, I'm 58. This is my neck. Like, if you don't like it, if you don't like it, if you don't like it, please scroll away. I don't know what to tell you.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

You know, you we're just talking about this um in regards to the way that we look and the changes that from someone being in that abuse, especially that narcissistic abuse, and the changes that they they see, the difference. How does that prolonged reality distortion impact not only your emotional well-being, but your nervous system and your long-term decision making?

SPEAKER_02 38:07

Yeah. Well, I mean, the decision making is so hard because when you've been, if anybody listening has been in abuse, they know that when you try to make a decision, you're probably met with opposition or like, oh, I wouldn't have chosen that way, I wouldn't have done it that way. And so I was so scared to make any decisions at all, any kind of decisions. I remember when we were selling one of our houses and I look back and I'm like, oh, it was so in abuse that he was like, Well, do we were cleaning out the garage? He's like, Do you want to keep this? And I was like, I didn't know what to say because I was scared. Yes was the wrong answer, no was the wrong answer, you know. So it was it was really hard. So even after the divorce, you're not gonna just magically like be done with everything, you know, like you have to unravel what just happened to you. And so making decisions, like while it's um very empowering, it still feels scary. And you have to really talk yourself off the ledge when you're making some decisions, like when I was renting my condo and when I wanted to whatever spend money on something, I was still here, I was still hearing his voice. Like when I wanted to buy a new chair for my room, it's like I heard his voice and I needed to unravel that and go, like, nope, you can talk to yourself because we are an autopilot, right? We were in survival, we were hearing his voice or you know, their voice all the time, right? Saying, like, oh no, you're really bad with money and this, whatever those things are. Again, like we were saying, you have to unravel whose voice is that. And so making decisions takes time, and your nervous system is a mess because you've been on such high anxiety. Um, you know, you've been in survival, you've been on high alert. And so you have to learn how to calm yourself. And for me, I all I did was sleep. I slept so much, and then I realized that I was right getting you know regulating. So I do I do posts on my Instagram. I talk about like, what are you guys doing right now? And I'll have a picture. I was sitting in bed eating cake, and so I took a picture. I'm like, what are you guys doing? And because and I because the other thing too is he would call me shamu if I had some cake or something like that, right? I know I was like, You look at yourself and worry about yourself, dude. Yeah, but but that was also his that was it. We have to remember, like, that was his childhood injury as well. And he was bringing it up. How can I hurt her? This is the way my mom hurt me, because I know that there were things said about his weight, so it's like, well, okay, so that hurt you. So well, you're gonna do it to your wife, like that's really nice, but so I so what you do to learn how to regulate and decision make is do things like that. Who who told you you can't sit in bed with cake? Well, nobody, because yeah, you know, um, I so that's what I did, and I used to not be able to, and I people who have been in abuse know these words like you're not allowed. I wasn't allowed to sit in bed with a cup of coffee. I do that every single morning now. At first, you're like, oh my gosh, I'm being so bad. And then you're like, this is just everyday life, you know, and so that's how that's how you work it out, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Well, and you know, we when we're talking about your nervous system, um, it's in a dysregulated mode. Yeah. So you are in that fight or flight fawn or freeze. You are hyper-vigilant. Anytime you have to make a decision, you're hyper-vigilant, you're anxious, you might shut down, you immediately move to people pleasing, you might over-explain. This is the one or there might be some decision paralysis. I have to say, in uh what I just thought of right now was I know when um my husband and I will when we have to make a decision, he can see when I'm in those certain spaces. And so he takes a step back, and you know, maybe it's sugar or it's a drink, or he'll might just come with uh uh, you know, the heating pad of the blanket so that we can get through that that trigger or that activation of the that mode. And then because you have to circle around, especially as you're going through it. You might have to circle around until you come back to say, okay, I look at I just went through all of this and I'm safe now. Okay, now I can make the decision.

SPEAKER_02 42:31

Yes, and that's so good that you said that because we are still going to get triggered, but we will learn the tools as we're healing and we're working with others. You know, we're gonna learn, we're gonna learn tools, we're gonna learn ways to get through the trigger faster to go like I am safe. I I don't know. I mean, some people it feels weird to like talk to yourself, talk to yourself in the mirror, something like that. I'm telling you, you have to because we have to rewire our brain. They have so like imagine like um, you know, parking in the driveway and then walking to your front door and you, you know, carve a path through the grass. And but we that's that's your neuro pathway. Like you've been doing it a certain way. They've been talking down to you, you've been doing it somewhere. We can re we can renew those neuropathways, we can build new ones by talking to ourselves and saying things like that. Like, I'm safe. This is okay, I can make this decision. It's okay. And if I make the wrong decision, I'm still going to be okay. Right, right. Because you know you weren't ever allowed to make the wrong decision. You're not you weren't allowed to do that.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

No, I mean, because what you have to think is in your case for 33 years, in my case, I guess it was about the same time when I found out my mom was a narcissist. Yeah, we were trained that when we spoke up, yeah, that led to backlash, or when we set a boundary that led to withdrawal, I'm not gonna talk to you, or punishment. And when we trusted. Our instincts, we were told that we were wrong, we were gaslit. And if we needed that reassurance, we were labeled as needy. So any of those things, now we have to relearn those things. And so whenever for me a trigger gets activated, I do like talk to myself. You know, I I might not say it out loud, but I talk to myself and say you're safe. That's a big thing, is you're safe.

SPEAKER_02 44:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

That nothing you do right now at this moment, if you eat cake in bed, if you drink coffee, if you decide you're gonna watch um, I'm a glutton for punishment. So if I'm gonna watch MS now all day, yeah, I am safe. You know, I'm safe.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

It's okay to have made this decision because I I love all the way all those things that you said. It's like it's so true. Like we were so hyper-vigilant to make any decisions because it was often gonna be the wrong one, and also being called needy, and you're you're a problem, right? You're a problem because you're asking questions, or you're or not demanding. See, not even demanding, you want something. You want right, you want right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

And it still happens to the best of us. We could be 30, 40 years down the road in our healing, and it still comes up because that is what we were trained to do, and we just have to stop when we see it, just like you did. You're like, no, I wasn't demanding, I was just asking.

SPEAKER_02 45:29

I was just asking the question, yeah. That's just I know it's so funny because I was doing this interview and we were talking about something like that, and I said the same thing, and I was like, Oh my gosh, it's still that same thing, it's so stuck in there, and also like just talking about different things on the internet about current events and stuff, and people saying, like, I don't like to fight on the internet, and I was like, I don't think I was fighting, I think I'm actually just giving an opinion, you know. Yeah, yeah, and I was like, That's abuser language.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

Yeah, I'm not gonna be gaslit when I speak my opinion to say that's me fighting, I know when I'm fighting. Yes, exactly. You will know when I'm fighting. Like I was about to say, I'm like, you'll you'll see it. This isn't it, yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, one of the things, and I hate to ask this, but one of the things that's often asked is why didn't you just leave? Yeah, from your experience, why is leaving this type of narcissistic relationship often more dangerous and destable like destabilizing than staying?

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Well, because part okay, there's a lot of reasons, and so I wasn't in physical abuse, and so could I have left? Yes. Did I know I was in abuse? No, I actually didn't know I was in abuse, I just thought my husband was a jerk and a dick. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, and I was living off of the slot machine effect of intermittent reinforcement, where sometimes it was good and then it'd be bad. And I'm like, okay, but it's gonna get back to good because it happened before, and that's how you get trauma bonded, and so you are chemically attached to this person, and so it makes it hard to leave. Also, you are being fed that you're not really that great of a person, maybe with money, you're kind of you're not very successful, all those so many things are being said that you are being brainwashed, and so it's hard, and even in physical abuse, it's hard to leave because we are so trauma bonded and we are so manipulated. So it's hard to think like, oh, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna leave because this is any good. Not to mention, like for me, there were so many times where I was like, I just can't do this anymore. Like, he's so he's so mean, he says he loves me, but he treats me like this. I don't get it. And you know, I just was one of those people where like you just make things work and we'll go to therapy and we'll make it work. And because if you if I would have left sooner, I'm sure people would have said something anyway. Um, you know, like, oh, you gave up, you gave up on your marriage, um, which is which is what he is telling people. And I was like, Right. Okay, I just yeah, I know, and you know, that the this is the thing, you have to be okay with whatever the other party is saying about you, which is part of the smear campaign. I'm okay. He can say whatever he wants. I have a microphone, I will say the the rest. I mean, I it really doesn't it doesn't bother me because I know the truth because I know all the work I did, and so leaving is so hard. It's also one of the most dangerous times if you are in um physical abuse. But I've heard of people who were not in physical abuse and all of a sudden talking about divorce, it's like they there's a yeah, something switch, yeah, that just flips on all of a sudden. So that's why you have to. I have some plans uh on my resource list, yeah. So escape plans because you cannot leave any narcissist, you cannot leave by telling them, I am leaving you, you know, you can't do not tell them your plan, you know. And even when I I it's so funny to me, instinctively, I was doing things like I had been in abuse and I didn't know I was in abuse yet, right? Right, and so when I was packing up to leave and stuff, there were things that I was like, I'm gonna take this just for spite and I'm gonna sell it. And he'd be like, Oh, why are there two different boxes? I'm like, Oh, this one's just going to storage and this one's going to the my new house, whatever. And so I was sort of lying because I wanted to, yeah, I did not want this. Is how I was getting control. He did not get to um write the narrative anymore because I had been, you know, I'd been doing everything to to make sure that everybody saw us as a happy family. And I I wasn't gonna let him write the narrative anymore. And so I was starting to do that, but you have to do it very quietly. So go to my website, you'll I have a huge list of resources.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

And we'll make sure that we put that in our show notes. And one of the things is if you think that you are in danger to talk to him as a health professional, talk to like get legal advice, um, because that's something that we don't give here.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

And what I'll say is when abuser, when an abuser suddenly feels that they're losing control, they try to reassert it.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

So it might be a more heavier hand. I know with my mom, um, depending on how she's feeling when she's leaving me voicemails, it's like five seconds of niceness, and then all of a sudden, like this, I'm your mother, and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, they can't keep you together very long.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

I was listening to um uh this woman uh on her podcast, and she was talking about how she had given her her ex time, you know, they were still together at that time, you know, chance after chance after chance. And she finally went to her therapist and she's like, I'm gonna give him six months, and then after that, if he doesn't change, he and the therapist was like, Okay, you won't need that long. And she's like, What are you talking about? She won't hold it together for six months. He didn't. I think she was back within a month, and it was her last straw. This is the thing, if especially if they say, I'll change, I'm whatever, I'm going to church now, I'm doing this, I went to therapy. Listen, they have shown you their true colors, and abusers do not often change, okay? Like hardly ever. There's the statistics are not there that abusers change. So when so if you go back, and this is not to shame anybody because the average time it takes a woman to leave is seven tries. So and I was there, I did that and I bought the t-shirt. So I've done that, I get it, right? Um, but if you go back, they will be okay, maybe for a short time, and then they will up their game because you they were able to talk you into coming back. So now you okay. So listen, now you're starting the trauma bond all over again, right? You're starting, you're getting new chemicals again. And look, we want to go heal and get better chemicals in our brain, not not their garbage. That's why we have to work on our self-esteem. Because when like even now where I'm out in the world and people are talking, I'm just like that that does not serve me. Like the way you're talking to me, like we're not gonna be friends. I will talk to you right this second, but we're not gonna be friends because you do not respect anybody, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:13

And I think that uh what I want to call out is the trauma bonding because it does like that does really affect your body, it is an addiction, it is a straight addiction in your nervous system because the same person who causes you pain has now been associated with relief and connection and a temporary safety. So removing that person really starts to trigger withdrawals. So that panic, that grief, the obsessive thinking, physical distress, the longing, that all those things that happen when you um have a drug addiction, yeah, or you know, you stop drinking because you have a drinking problem, or you're an alcoholic. Yeah, those are all the same things that are happening because it is an addiction. And it's that's why you want to hit.

SPEAKER_02 53:02

That's why you want a little bit, that's why you want to go see them and want to talk to them, you know.

SPEAKER_01 53:06

Right. Yeah. And with um with narcissistic relationships, what often happens is they are dismantling your support system at the same time. Yeah, so you can't get that hit from somewhere else because your friends are drifting away, you have family relationship strains, and you may have been discouraged to trust others and made to feel ashamed about what's happening. And that often happens. Like, I cannot I don't speak to any of my family except for that one cousin, because the comment is always the same. Well, she's your mom.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

Correct. And that's not that's not enough. I'll tell you right now, I lived off of that for a long time with my family. It's not, it's not enough because the minute we are back into that situation again, they're gonna treat us. I think the saying is like they'll treat you the at the point where they had the most control over you, they're gonna still see you as that 12-year-old little kid, you know, right or whatever it is. And I could not I could not continue that. Same thing with me when I had a conversation with one of my family members. Uh, I think we were on the phone, um, you know, 10 minutes uh and it was okay. And then I was like, oh, wait, and then it's like it only took 10 minutes and you already fell apart, and it just it it they cannot hold on because what they're real what they're saying to you, and sadly, even at the end of your marriage and stuff like that, what they're saying to you and the way you're you're seeing them behind the mask, that's their true colors and really how they've always felt. They've been keeping it together. Maybe that's why they fall asleep at night so easily.

SPEAKER_01 54:40

I know, right? They're like they just like it's like they say everything that's on their mind, there's no internal thoughts to like please.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

Well, they're not gonna no, they're not gonna think about it. So I did I did put a picture in my book of uh it's talking about the trauma bond because when I had talked to my ex, I went, I had to talk to him because I wanted to I wanted answers. You're not gonna get it. That's fair. They do not they don't answer the word the question why they don't no, and so I didn't know that. So I went to talk to him and and ask him why. And I was screaming at him and I was so mad, why didn't you just ask me for a divorce? Why did you hide this woman? Blah blah blah. And do you know then I asked him for a hug because my abuser was always the person who was soothing me, and that's how you get trauma. That's the trouble.

SPEAKER_01 55:26

Well, and that and that's a crazy thing because as we talk about it now, we're like, What I'm thinking, right? But when you're in that moment, that's what it is. That's it, and that's okay. It is okay, and you know what?

SPEAKER_02 55:40

I don't blame myself. Uh, everything that has happened to me, it's just all part of my journey. All the petty videos I've done, the all the things I've said and uh the things I've talked about on podcasts. I don't care, it's all part of my journey. Because and people might even say, Oh, you're so petty for you know and bitter for talking about it. No, because I don't know how many you know how many DMs I get a day saying, like, oh my gosh, I was I'm in the same situation. I'm so glad that you're doing okay. This is what we are bringing hope to people that to other people now reading. Yes, exactly. And that there's hope on the other side. That's why I wanted to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 56:17

Well, and I mean, you what I want to say to people who are thinking about leaving a narcissistic relationship, who are thinking no contact with their parents, who are, you know, whatever it is that you're in a narcissistic relationship and you're looking to break that bond. Yeah, that you're navigating one of the most complex psychological and safety calculations a human nervous system can make.

SPEAKER_02 56:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:42

Like this, it's survival, it's not weakness. Right. It's you figuring out how you can survive. And then there's something that comes after this, and many people don't talk about this, is grief. So can you talk a little bit about that grief after leaving, not just a relationship, but for the self that you lost when you were trying to survive it?

SPEAKER_02 57:07

I know it's so sad. I do every once in a while still have a little bit of anger about the years he took from me, not being a what I call a soft mom. Uh, it was a yelly, screamy, ragey mom, you know. Of course, I've had I've had a lot of um, you know, healing with my kids about this, but yeah, we talk about it because my kids, even now, and my youngest is 27, he'll be like, You're so different now. I'm like, I know I'm like a fought to be this person where I'm like just calm and like and I truly am calm, but I grieve that, and okay, so when I first got divorced, I was like, I I'm getting rid of the problem, everything's gonna be great. My wise friends were like, You know, you're gonna be grieving, right? I'm like, grieving that motherfucker? What are you talking about? And yeah, and they're like, Yeah, you're gonna be grieving the life you were supposed to have. Because look, you know, we were planning, you know, we were saving for retirement and we were gonna do all these things and and grieving the person that I wish I would have been. So that's why I fight really hard now. And when I work with women, because I I work with women in midlife, you feel like, okay, well, that's it. You know, like we're done. Uh no, hello. If we're not dead, we're not done. And so we're so much time. There's so much time and so much time to make a difference, and so that's why we can grieve. I I grieve, I grieve the mom I wish I would have been. I grieve all the years he took from me. He stole my youth, you know. Yep. I mean, it's it's heartbreaking. And so that's why I fight for the life that I have now, and to have joy and to really do random things to bring me joy. I have no guilt. There is no time for guilt. Listen, there's no time. Who gave you that? Who gave that to you? Because it's not, you know, just really think about it. We do not have to feel guilty, like for me, sitting in bed eating cake. I don't feel one second of bad about that. It was a great cake, and I wish I would have had more.

SPEAKER_01 59:04

Well, and I think, you know, the times that I feel a lot of grief. So, first, I want to say that very similarly, my 30-year-old, who's my daughter biologically, I have my three um bonus kids.

SPEAKER_02 59:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:17

Um, and the two youngest, the 17-year-old and the 14-year-old, who's my my I love him to death, um, is our only boy. So we have three girls and then a boy. Yeah, I love you know, boys are so different, they're so different. And um my oldest often says, You're so much more chill than you used to be. And and I know that being out of that abusive situation, yeah, both with my mom and with my um first part, my first husband, yeah, um, is it's lifting. And and I'll say this, um, I'll make a little note. I always joke with my husband that uh this marriage is the only one that counts because we got married in the Catholic Church. So this one's the only one that counts. And he's and he has to be forever with me. I'm gonna find him in the afterlife. So that's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:10

You're stuck with me.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

You better like good luck, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:14

And it's okay to grieve all these things, it's okay to be sad about it. Ugh, it's got it's so hard to sit there and go, like, I hate this person and I love this person. Yeah, it's so hard. I had such a hard time with that, grieving this person, grieving everything I lost. Um, but it's normal. And if of course, I always recommend trauma-informed therapy when you work with somebody. You cannot just go to any therapist. Um, some of them will um talk to you about reconciling or thinking of happy times. Yeah, we try not to think about the happy times because they are intertwined with abuse. Um, because my friends will be like, Oh, think about the good times. My friends who didn't understand. Yeah, think about the good times. I'm like, well, but I can point to a picture at Disneyland and tell you what what we were fighting about. You know, like I knew I knew we were fighting because yeah, and it's like, okay, everybody come over here because I curated the facade, you know, like, don't we look great? Doesn't my family look great? You know, I'm dying, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

Yeah, like and that's you know, the I think that I and I would take it a step further. I would say that if you want to work with a coach too, that a trauma-informed coach is really important because knowing that information and walking you through what you need to, and you know, and I'll even take it a step further. The leaders that we've worked with in our other business, yeah, and us being trauma-informed has really helped them because your marriage or your relationship or your personal life doesn't stop when you hit the door or when you turn on the computer to work. So your reaction during work to frustrating things, to things that make you angry, those are all you're gonna have your all your normal triggers. You know, I often think about the grief of not having a relationship with my mom.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:59

When, and especially about three or four years ago when I started going through perimenopause, yeah, because I had no one that I could talk to about it. Like no one understands. And my daughter and I have a very open relationship. She can talk to me about things. She'll ask, Oh, well, you know, when you were my age, how long were your periods? Or, you know, those kind of things. And I can explain that to her.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:22

Whereas I can't ask anyone, but looking back now and thinking about my mom and the age that she was and the age I was when I hit perimenopause, her narcissism and abuse ramped up at that age.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:35

That makes sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:36

And it totally makes sense to me now, and so I grieve that now. And I mentioned in our first episode, another way that I feel grief is when I look in the mirror and I don't have makeup on because I look exactly like my mom.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:49

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:50

And that's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:51

It is crazy because I have, yeah, I'm very much I have my mom and my dad. There's some tendencies, and I'm just like and it's so it's hard, but um, we just I know it's really hard. It's yeah, it's hard. Grieving, it's grieving someone who really didn't exist, you know, because you wanted you wanted so I have I have friends who don't have contact with their parents or their mom or whatever, right? And I'll say, like, just so you know, when she passes away, you will still grieve and it will feel weird. Why? Why? I don't even like her. What I know you're gonna grieve the mother you didn't have because what could have been, and that's the part for me. There's some things that I think about. Um, but I I don't go, we don't go to jail for anybody, so I we don't do anything with this, but I do have rage-filled thoughts about like you stole all these years, you did all these things, yeah. And that's why to me it's like I'm such a proponent for go to therapy, heal, because if not, you are gonna bleed all over people who didn't cut you, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:56

That is that's the line for the show. That's uh whether it is what other where if it's a coach, a trauma-informed coach, or a therapist, yeah. That healing, if you do not heal, you will bleed all over people who didn't cut you. That that's the line. That's it. That's the line for the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:14

You know, the thing that we we know is that like therapy, it would you can talk about your past, right? And then coaching takes you forward, and that's why it's so good to do both. And I've done both because the therapy you do, you're gonna unravel your your family systems, you're gonna unravel what happened in your marriage or your relationship, whatever. Yeah, and then with a coach, and I love that it's trauma informed. I'm the same way, you know, with my coaching, it's like we can talk about it's like this is what happened to us, right? Okay, now we're gonna learn how to set boundaries so this doesn't happen again, and we're gonna learn how to dream for the future because when you walk out of any kind of abusive relationship, you feel like you're done, and oh you've been told you've been told you're so worthless and all these things, and yeah, all the things, yeah. And it's like I'm more successful now than I was with him a hundred percent. And but I can actually when I'm making decisions, I don't hear his voice, like I don't hear his voice saying, like, no way, you can't do that. Like you you wouldn't you wouldn't be good at that. I just think to myself, can I do that? Maybe I maybe I wouldn't be good at that, but I know that that's my own voice and maybe my own insecurity, rather than him saying, You wouldn't be good at that.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:27

Yeah, exactly. Well, and you know, one of the things that I did that was really helpful was and this it might sound a little hokey because it's the you know, talking to yourself, but I said in the mirror, I forgive you. Yeah, and I'm safe. And once I did that, then like a whole flood of other things kind of came in to where all of a sudden I could feel the love that was coming from my you know, chosen family. I could see the progress in the work that I was doing. And that's a really big, big, big thing. And you know, I I I know that people, that's a hard thing. It's a hard thing for people to forgive themselves. When you forgive yourself, your opening like we're on the other side, friends. Like all of us cycle breakers are on the other side waving at you, just just just forgive yourself. It's okay. It's totally okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:28

And you didn't know. And that's the thing, especially with the you know, current events. It's like it wasn't your fault. That's the thing is because uh, you know, we're gonna have trolls um on the internet that say, like, why didn't you see it? and things like that. It's like um, they don't come in like abusers, they walk in like the greatest people who have ever lived. They they come in, they sweep you off your feet, they come in riding that white horse as everything you've ever dreamed of. Yes, that's what they that's what they're serving you. Yeah, that's what they're serving you. They're serving you Prince Charming, the the the most amazing person, someone that somebody you've ever dreamed of, um, that you've always dreamed of. And then when they lock you down, then you get to start seeing behind the mask, and that's what's scary, because now you're now you're locked in. And I am not I'm not saying don't ever get married. I'm not saying that because this is if you're not married. I'm not saying that, I'm just saying like be really careful and really make you know, because we know as women in in today's society, as of today anyway, we have we can do a lot of things on our own.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:35

Yes, yes, we can do that's a whole nother podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:38

We'll do that one later, but we can do we don't have to have a man signing for a credit card and all these kinds of things, yeah. And and so we can take our time, and it's not so taboo to like have premarital sex and all these things, it's like it's not as taboo as things were before, so we can actually take our time, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:56

And one of the things is um understand that instinct, not the like insecure voice, because oftentimes an insecure voice might come up and sound like an instinct, yes, but your instinct is that kind of guttural feeling that you're like, this doesn't seem right, like and that's a red flag, and those are the red flags.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:16

That's how quickly those little like that's the first red flag. I remember I went like that was weird, but that's a red flag, and that's why people go, like, why didn't you leave it the first red flag? I'm like, the first red flag didn't even look red, it barely looks red. Yeah, and there were all pink yeah, it was a little pink, and there were a hundred green flags before it and after it, right? Right, but you know, but when they tell you something like a backhanded compliment or something, you go, that was kind of rude. Oh, sorry, you're so sensitive. And at first, like if somebody said you're so sensitive to me now, I'd be like out the door so fast. That's why I don't date because I don't have any patience.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:52

That's fair, you know. That's fair. I remember uh and I I would assume that even if I was still talking to my mother, one of the things that she used to like to say was, Wow, you look really great even though you haven't lost a lot of weight.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:08

And that's a bad compliment. That's a bad and that's this is the thing I'm telling you. There's so many insidious things that we just don't realize that what I try to do videos all the time on different things that people don't understand. And one of them is like dog whistling, which I thought, what like what does that even mean? But the dog whistling is when they tell you, like, you do not look good with a lot of makeup, you shouldn't wear a lot of makeup, whatever. So you don't wear you don't wear a lot of makeup. Okay, so they've already controlled you by that, just so you know, because you want to make your your spouse happy. I did it, you know, I did it all the time. If they didn't like something, I didn't wear it or whatever, right? But then say you end up going to dinner with friends, or you go to a party, and they will rave up and down about so and so's makeup, yeah, yeah. And that's a dog whistle back to you that no one else knows. You're kind of being abused in front of everybody, and nobody realizes, and you're sitting there going, Wait, I thought he didn't like a lot of makeup, I don't understand. Yeah, and yeah, it's it's just made to confuse you. That's all it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:11

It's just made to confuse you, and that's they want you in that constant stage, right? I always felt I always felt like I was in that stage with my mom. I couldn't make her have yourself. The goal post was always moved. And I think the thing that really upset me the most was I remember being in high school and I remember going to a um uh like they had a a therapist there, and okay, you know, for kids who were having a rough time, maybe having have bad grades in school, or just like teachers could see that there was something going on, and teachers are mandatory reporters, and covert narcissists always, always, always, at least in my experience, can totally snow them over. Oh, for sure. So I remember going in and saying, you know, I'm having a really hard time, and I know this sounds crazy because a lot of teenagers are like this. Oh, my mom doesn't listen. Oh, blah, blah, blah. But then there was the added, my mom is doing this and my mom is doing that. And then there was the at like the all these stacks. And the therapist like looked at me and was like, This cannot be real, yeah. At first, and then they're not trained, yeah. Right. And then she listened, she said, Why don't we have your mom come in? Oh I was like, Okay, yeah, and my mom, so my mom came in, she's all you know that I love you. I just, you know, I would give anything for you. And I was like, This, this is what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:34

And that they're I know, and that doesn't sound like abuse. That doesn't sound like abuse. That's a thing, and so no, don't ever like oh god, don't ever bring them in. No, and that's a person who's not that's a person who's not trained. Exactly. That's a exactly, and I actually did it to myself every time I'd be like, right, can I bring my can I bring my husband in next time so you we can talk about these because I'd have like a list of things that we need to talk about by the time by the time we left you know therapy, I was on meds, it was all my fault, all those things.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:04

I know, and those are all the things I see like and and we'll well, like I said, we'll talk about the factitious disorder by proxy or munchhausen by proxy in another episode. But that is very common for um children of narcissists because a lot of time there's a comorbidity of the two, yeah, because it gains an extra thing where oh, look at me, I'm a caregiver. Oh, look, I've done you know all these great things for my kids, and oh, they're so sick, but I'm you know, I'm doing whatever. And that that don't when you go to a therapist, I'm gonna tell you this they will never straight out say, Oh, you're crazy. Right. So any therapist that says that to you is probably being coerced by the narcissist that you're in the abuse, or they're not trained at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:53

Our last, um, our last marriage counselor told me he was very handsome, and what did I have to complain about? Ew, uh you I was I think we were to I think we started doing papers about a month later. I could not believe it. I'm like, and I didn't even I started to understand what gaslighting was. I'm like, so now I'm being gaslit by the therapist? I'm like, what is happening? So it was so wild to me. And when I figured out what narcissistic abuse was, I actually emailed her and sent her the thing. She's like, Oh, I'm so sorry that you didn't have a good experience. I'm like, Yeah, thanks for listening. Like it was such an abuser language. I'm like, so that's somebody who's not trained because right, how dare you say that to a wife who's sitting here and he's look at him, he's so handsome. What do you have to complain about? I'm like, and he was just sitting there with his shitty grin, you know, that he like they do with their little smirk, like yeah, I fooled another one.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:48

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:49

That I couldn't get out there, I couldn't get out of there fast enough. I was starting to wake up at that point. I'm like, I'm out of this.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:55

And I'm sorry that your therapist did that. And um, if you all want to know who that person is, you can DM to make sure you're not going to that therapist. You can DM Laura to find out exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:08

You know, and so I have on my resource list, I have a um a list of trauma-informed therapists that you can find for anywhere in the country. Oh, fantastic! Because people are like, Well, I went to this therapist and all she wants to do, like talk therapy can work, but you have to have the right person. Yes, and then you have other people who will do EMDR and all these different things, all these different modes of things. And that's the thing, it's like I didn't try one thing, I did so many different things because we have to heal the whole body, and so I did tons of stuff, you know, meditation, breath work. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:40

And there's a lot of things that you can do.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:42

So many things.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:43

Um, if there was one thing, as we close up, if there was one thing you wish survivors understood earlier about power, responsibility, and their right to step away, what would it be?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:56

That you are worth more than how you're being treated. That being in your, let's just say marriage, being in your marriage and you are so sad every day. I was going to bed so many days a week crying, saying like, I don't understand why my husband doesn't like me or doesn't act like he likes me, you are worth more than that. You really are worth more than that. So it's not always going to feel this way. And if you can be brave enough to get on the other side and do the work to get on the other side, whatever that may be, um, I promise you, it won't always be this way. You know, you won't always feel this way.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:35

And you know, what I want to leave with people is that you don't need permission to leave. You don't need to convince anybody, and you don't need to prove um abuse beyond a reasonable doubt.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:49

Yes. Oh, and I would love, I would love to add on to that because a lot of people do ask me since we're talking about narcissists. A lot of people ask me, Do you have a checklist? Things like that. You do not need a checklist. No, you don't need to know anything, you need to ask yourself. This is what I asked myself because I did not know I was in abuse. Can I do this for the rest of my life? Yes, I could not. I couldn't go, I could barely go one more day because I wasn't going to survive it. Because I was to the point where I had to check myself in somewhere, or I was probably not gonna want to be alive anymore because it was so bad.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:23

Well, and so think about that.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:25

Can so no matter what situation you're in, can you do this for the rest of your life if nothing changes? Because nothing will change unless you, you know, the only person you can change is yourself. So if nothing changes, can you live it like that for the rest of your life? I couldn't, and that's the only question you have to ask yourself, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:43

Your body's no is enough, your exhaustion is enough, your loss of self is enough, and power is not who shouts the loudest. Correct. Power is who gets themselves without punishment, and you're allowed to choose that life. Yeah, um, and that's the big thing. You matter and you're allowed to choose that. Laura, thank you so much for your clarity, your steadiness, and the humanity you brought to this conversation. You named what so many survivors have lived on the inside for decades without language, and you did it without sensationalizing pain or minimizing impact.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:21

That matters more than people realize.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:23

I appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:24

Thank you so much for having me. It was a great conversation. I know it's gonna impact a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:28

Thank you. To everyone listening, if something in your body softened, tightened, or finally exhaled today, that is information. Many of us are taught to override our instincts in order to survive our families. We learned to question ourselves before questioning harm. Recognizing coercive control is not about blaming the past, it's about telling the truth so the future can be different. If you're realizing that what you've experienced was not just complicated or just how you are, you're not too late. You're not dramatic, and you're not cruel for seeing how clearly things are. Awareness often comes with grief. Grief for the parent you hoped would change, grief for the protection you deserved, grief for the child who learned to say small, quiet, are useful in order to stay safe. All of that grief is valid. Choosing distance boundaries are no contact, is not a failure of love. It's an act of self-respect and nervous system repair. Abuse does not end just because we leave the room. Safety is not perfection, it is consistency, it is predictability, where your needs are not threatened as an inconvenience, and where love does not require you to disappear. Many survivors find this first in a chosen family. Friendships, community, or even within themselves. That counts. You do not have to confront, explain, or justify anything. Clarity does not require action or a deadline. Your only job is to stay connected to yourself and to do what feels stabilizing, not overwhelming. And if you're further along and listening from a place of hard-earned peace, your presence matters. Your life is proof that there is life after control. You're allowed to build a life that feels like home. Until next time, I'm Nalani Pearl Hernandez, and this is the Beyond Mommy Dears podcast. Healing from a narcissistic mother doesn't happen in isolation or on a timeline. Some weeks you feel steady, and other weeks a small crack can feel like everything opened. That's why we offer monthly support and small trauma-informed support groups for adult daughters of narcissistic mothers. Monthly support looks like ongoing individual support for when real life happens. It includes trauma-informed coaching, ongoing message support, and a private monthly check-in to help you stay grounded, regulated, and supported between moments of contact, conflict, and self-doubt. This support is steady, not overwhelming. There's no pressure to fix anything, just consistent support so you are not carrying this alone. Also, do small support groups. Our groups are intentionally small, confidential, and trauma-informed. They're designed for women who want a community without the chaos, validation without comparison, and structure without judgment. We focus on a shared understanding, nervous system regulation, boundaries, and self- and reclaiming self-trust. Real-world trauma-informed support for daughters who grew up managing someone else's emotions and now are learning to protect themselves. You're not behind, you're not too sensitive, you're responding to what you live through. Learn more by visiting beyond mommydear.com.