Narcissistic Abuse & the Nervous System: Why Healing Feels So Hard (and Why You’re Not the Problem) | With Alea Coburn

Narcissistic Abuse & the Nervous System: Why Healing Feels So Hard (and Why You’re Not the Problem) | With Alea Coburn

🎧 Show Notes
What is the real cost of healing after narcissistic abuse?

In this deeply honest and emotional episode of Beyond Mommy Dearest, Noelani sits down with Alea Coburn to talk about what it actually feels like to heal after growing up with a narcissistic and emotionally neglectful mother.
We explore the concept of choosing peace at the cost of aloneness, and why for many survivors, being alone can feel safer than being unseen, dismissed, or emotionally erased.

Alea shares her personal story of survival, including the physical impact of trauma on her body, experiences with performative care, and the moment she realized she could no longer stay in relationships that compromised her well-being.

Together, we unpack:
Why narcissistic abuse is so difficult to name
How shame gets internalized in daughters of narcissistic mothers
What “social invisibility” does to your nervous system
The difference between real care and performative care
How trauma shows up physically in the body
Why anger is not toxic, but a source of wisdom
Red flags in relationships that survivors often miss
The emotional cost of staying vs. the courage it takes to leave
This episode is raw, validating, and at times intense, but it is also deeply empowering.

If you’ve ever felt like you were “too much,” “too sensitive,” or responsible for your own pain, this conversation will help you begin to untangle what was never yours to carry.

💬 Key Takeaways
You are not too much. You were unmet.
Your body is not broken. It is responding to what you lived through.
Anger is not the problem. It is information.
Being alone is sometimes the first step to no longer being invisible.
Healing may feel isolating, but it is also where you begin to come home to yourself

🧠 What We Talk About
Narcissistic mothers and emotional neglect
Nervous system dysregulation and trauma responses
Shame, identity, and overcompensation
Performative care vs. real support
Physical symptoms of emotional abuse
Red flags in relationships
Boundaries, anger, and self-trust
Choosing aloneness as a path to healing

🔗 Work With Alea + Learn More
Alea Coburn is a truth-teller, pattern seer, abuse survivor, and advocate who helps women rebuild trust, intuition, and health after narcissistic abuse, gaslighting, and systemic trauma.
Her work is for women who feel unmet, unseen, and ready to reclaim themselves.
✨ Connect + Explore:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rusticpeach/
Website: aleatamar.com
Substack: aleacoburn.substack.com
YouTube: youtube.com/@aleacoburn
Self-Reprogramming Toolkit + Offerings: Available via her website
Live Event: Building Attunement For Her (2nd Run – April 3)

🔗 Resources + Links
Follow the podcast: Beyond Mommy Dearest
Work with Noelani: www.beyondmommydearest.com
Follow the instagrm: https://www.instagram.com/beyondmommydearest/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

You're listening to the Beyond Mommy Daris podcast, where we talk about growing up with narcissistic moms, how it shapes your nervous system, your relationships, and your sense of self, and how to heal without shame. I'm your host, Nelani Pearl Hernandez. Today's episode is sponsored by The Happy Cannabis, plant-powered body care that actually works. Today's conversation is a powerful one. I'm joined by Aaliyah Colburn. We're talking about narcissistic abuse, the body, and what it really takes to reclaim yourself. Um, Aaliyah is rocking the best bangs I have seen. Only one other person in my entire life I've seen with these amazing bangs. So thank you for blessing us with you and your bangs.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Oh my goodness. Well, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Yeah, definitely. I found, so I found your you on Instagram. And I was really happy that you said yes to come because as we've been sitting and talking and finding out like more about each other, it's really been helpful to me because I I totally believe that each person is on their own journey. So I would really love to know, like as we get started, um, what does choosing peace at the cost of aloneness? And I want to flag something here, not loneliness, aloneness. Loneliness is different. Aloness mean to you. And when did you first start realizing that was really a part of your healing path?

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Yeah, that's a good one. It's a loaded one. And I think that we can go into it more as things come up, but she think peace at the cost of aloneness means a lot of things. And the first thing that comes up for me is, you know, nervous system capacity. Yes. Because as humans, obviously, we're wired to be interdependent. And so I think a huge reason why a lot of people either settle or don't aren't able to see the way through or you know, or forward in either an abusive situation or even just like a mildly like this is not aligned kind of situation. Yeah. Is the nervous system just reacts as if you're going to die when you choose to step into the unknown. It's just so I think that you know the the biggest cost of aloneness is really just like the sensational discomfort of being in the unknown and you know, bearing that that discomfort. Um and I think I'm just wired to kind of feel intense sensations, so that helps. And I also practiced um a lot of like meditation and whatnot when I was younger. And so I think, you know, a couple of different combinations of situations kind of primed me to be more like bold or courageous when it came to choosing being alone. Um and then you asked, you asked something else adjacent to that.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Um, like when did you first realize that this was part of how you had to heal your healing path?

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Yeah, so I think I don't know if there's like one specific moment I can pinpoint, but I think that I realized it more the more I lived life and was dealing with the consequences of the extreme, like intolerable discomfort physiologically that it cost to stay in situations or relationships that were misaligned somehow. Um, and then sadly, I mean, this is a reality of being an abuse survivor, right? Like when you survive abuse, the healing is kind of all on your back. It's becomes your brain, and what people do to you becomes your responsibility. And there's so many stigmas and so much shame in society because of that, which I, you know, it's so sad. Um, I've I've found a lot of clarity through that, and I grieve for other people who are still kind of, you know, their identities are entangled with, you know, with what doesn't belong to them. And I think also another reason that I realized aloneness was part of my path or whatever, just the circumstances, um, just recognizing my limitations and my capacity. That that's kind of why I was going into the abuse survivor, you know, it's all our responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Like I I recognize that because of where I came from, like, I don't have the same relational capacity that you know normal people do. And that's yes, normal. Normal, yes, you know, people who grow up in loving, supportive, safe environments and have more automatic room. It's like their bodies are conditioned to um maintain some kind of equilibrium during moments of misattunment, for example, where you know, for me, it takes a lot more for me to come back to my to my center during a moment of of misattunment, for ex just for one example. Yeah and you know, and I I I own what I need and I I try to name it, but it's it's a sad but true cost, you know, to have to pay when you realize that like I actually need a lot more than what is being provided for or being reciprocated. Um, you know, and I don't know, yeah, that's just kind of my basic Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

No, I think that's great. You know, one of the things by the time people hear this podcast, they would have heard. Um, we had a um Spirit Bird Holden on who did uh who's a shaman. So she talks a lot about that, the feeling and the energy, and also Heather Seipel, who is an energy spirit guide. And I think that, you know, I I said it when I had them on, it's like a charcuterie board, right? And we decide, and please have your kitty join you. Have them have I love it. Um, and that energy is really like it's a very important thing. And people just explain it all different kinds of ways, right? There's the um, some people talk about it in a very religious way, some people talk about it in the spirit way, some people talk about it in you know, feeling in the sensitive way. And I think it is really good to be able to focus on what talks to you, meaning like what is the important thing. And so I think that in my experience, the feelings, oh hello, kitten. Hello, so cute. I love it. He's like, uh I haven't given you permission to let me on the podcast yet. Um, I think one of the things that's really important when it comes to sensitivities and when we're dealing with narcissistic abuse, I think that we talk about them and we talk about how we're like constantly pushing down that. And because of that, when we come back to attunement or alignment or any of those things after we've been out of it, it could feel like a lot to a normal person that we're sensitive and that that's because a lot of our needs weren't met, and that's okay. Like I think for a lot of survivors, that that's a hard thing to be okay with that. You know, I always say by the, you know, by the grace of the higher spirits that I have the husband that I have now because he understands that he understands that sensitivity and he honors that, like he can see when it's too much for me, or you know, maybe I just need that heating pad or whatever it is. But for a lot of survivors, they, you know, they rather be alone because finding that person is hard. And and I will say this my husband, I my husband just kind of like appeared in front of me. Like I really believe that we were on two totally different paths that just kind of crossed. But this aloneness and I wanna I wanna say this in a really like uh clear way. Like, I rather be alone than invisible, because a lot of times in that narcissistic relationship, like for us, it was our mothers, for others, it could be their you know, romantic relationships or whatever it is, they rather be invisible. So, how do you define that like social invisibility? And what does that do to your nervous system over time?

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Yeah, that's a great, another great loaded question. I love it though. No, I love it. It's deep, it's rich. Um so how do I define that, or I guess what's my experience with that social invisibility?

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Is that yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Yeah. I don't know, man. I I feel like I if I thought about this longer, I'm sure I would be able to come up with specific examples, but I don't know, you know, I guess I'll just give one basic, very basic example. And this kind of shows up in many different areas. So going back to the topic of um being a sensitive survivor who is healing from neglect and unmet needs, you know, you're a dry sponge, you're you're handled differently than other people who have those needs met, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:28

So I think that um one experience of social invisibility that I have, I don't know, felt kind of smacked by uh frequently throughout the years is um I would say a lack of like trauma-informed language and frameworks.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Thank you. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

Yeah, that's a huge yeah. I'll give you an example, okay? Okay, and um I'm not gonna name names, obviously, but there's a group I go to and it's part of the my Jewish community. Um and I I love them and I love philosophically, intellectually, spiritually, emotionally stimulating, rich, deep conversations. Um, and that's kind of the context that we you know meet in the specific group. Um, and when I, you know, first moved to Arizona, I was looking for community groups, this and that. And then I saw um one of these groups was about like anger management, I don't know what they called it. Yeah, but yeah, something about anger. And this is a something that is probably inconsequential, just goes over your head. Yeah. Someone, you know, who has this kind of stay stable, safe cushioned of a foundation in the system. Yeah, yeah. But when I was reading the description of this event, it just like triggered almost this cascade of just like grief of all the times that this part of my experience as a survivor was erased, and I felt invisible. And specifically, the the the event was was written, and anger was framed as as negative, and it was framed as like you know, this is a problem to fix, and this is a toxin to erase, and this is but I'm like, no, the the wisdom of of my anger has been to feel it and to metabolize it into boundaries, into recovering my sense of my fragmented sense of self that was robbed from me during a moment of abuse, you know, whatever. Anger has profound wisdom. And so I get, yeah, that's just one small example of how I mean it's small, but it's it's enormous. Like I think that myself and countless other survivors maybe don't even recognize it all the time, but just the way that I would say emotions in general and the wisdom of like the body in general is treated, especially in like neo-spiritual healing kind of circles, like that. So um, yeah, and I'm happy to like go more into different things if you have more questions on that. But that's my kind of first thought when I think of how I've socially erased that's just one way, and it shows up in so many different forms. Um, and then also like you know, trying to make friends and as well interested as they are when I start to open up, as is the natural process of making forming a friendship, a bond, and they respond in a way that you know unintentionally dismisses or dilutes or validates my experience, yes. Um, or you know, doesn't center me. And if I'm being honest, I I need to feel centered, I need to feel like the center of the universe when I'm talking about these things. Yeah, because they're so sensitive, yeah, so tempting, yeah. Yes, and I'm coming from a place myself and other survivors too. We're coming from a place where we we have not gotten that kind of attunement in the face of abuse for years. And it's like imagine carrying that burden in your flesh. It's like my face is getting hot. I hear you, yeah. You know, like it's it's it's an impossible burden to carry. And then going back to the aloneness thing, it's like I I it's not even that I would prefer to be alone all the time, but it's like I cannot afford to be in the company of people who amplify this sense of me feeling erased yet again, yeah. Yeah, neglected yet again. It's like all the micro fractures, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:02

It's kind of like microaggressions, like when we talk about them like in racism or something, but it's like those microaggressions towards trauma because you know, it's to me, it's always interesting because I enjoy being able to talk to survivors of mothers who were narcissists, because I don't have to explain it. And so there's this kindred spirit to know if I say something like, Oh, and my mom did this, you and whoever it is in their minds, uh, or even someone who survived narcissism. Oh, right. Uh-huh. I totally get that. Because then I don't go to that invisibleness. Then I don't feel like I'm just being pushed aside. And yep, and the reason why I think for a lot of daughters of narcissistic mothers, why that hurts is because your foundation and that fundamental need was just pushed aside. Yeah. And then you got blamed for it. That's that's always the icing on the cake.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

And I mean we get to carry the shame, we get to carry the shame for it for the rest of our lives because you know, yeah, systemically, this dynamic is not acknowledged. Like the amount of shame I've had to like sift the wade through my whole life because I'm carrying something that was never my responsibility. And then when I finally own, yeah, actually what I need. And I want to feel like the most important person in the room sometimes. I need that attunement. And it's like that's okay. Yeah, there's no.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

No, not at all. And I think that's you know, because people are like, oh, that might be a narcissistic tendency. No, it's not. Fuck you. It's not like we know what it is. Like, really, go fuck yourself. That's what I have to say about that.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Yeah, anything it's overcompensation for what never showed up when it was supposed to.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Yeah, you know, yeah. Well, and you know, it's really hard, especially like when if you you go into the corporate world and like one of the, you know, our other side of our business is we work with, you know, companies and corporations and we do the trauma-informed work because our personal life doesn't stop when we like, okay, it's time to clock in. It's not severance. I don't know if you've ever seen that, but it's not severance. Like, we don't check in and our everything's erased, and we're just little worker bees, and then we check back in, and that's just not the way it is. So, understanding how people respond, knowing to listen to understand, and understanding that anything that you say is gonna have impact. And if that does have impact, all you have to do is say sorry. Say sorry, make a note of it in your notebook, and don't do it again. Like that, that's what real people do. If we want to talk about normals, right? That is what and I and it, I personally don't think it's too much to ask. It I don't think it's I agree with you.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

This is such a good one. Can I can I wax on that for a minute?

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Yeah, of course. Yeah, please.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Something that I have been talking with my amazing therapist about lately is um how so many people struggle to um I want to say give that type of unilateral attunement, the way that an unconditionally loving parent would tend to their baby who is losing their mind because it's the end of the world because they just got a paper cut or something. Yeah. And their parent actually took the piece of paper out of their hand too quickly. So now the parent is the devil, and yeah, like the parent has the capacity to sit there and nurture them and call to them, whatever. It's like that's unilateral achievement. The parent is not taking it personal that the child is mad at them for ripping the paper out too quickly, and yeah, you know, I noticed that um something that, you know, relationally I think I have a pretty high capacity to give is that because I learned to do that based off what I perceive and whatever. Yeah. And one thing that I have just been reflecting on a lot is that so many people, and again, I think it comes back down to the capacity of the nervous system to like hold a sensation and separate identity from what's happening and create space inside. That so many people don't have room to put their ego aside when someone needs the floor for a minute. And that's something, and that's another reason why I have felt very socially isolated or you know, chosen alone rather than social interaction, because um, as a survivor, being sensitive, needing what I need, you know, having an empty cup in certain areas of life, it's like I have run into this over and over and over in my life, like constantly, where you know, when my need comes up and I do need to be centered, which is every day, it's not all the time, but what I need like what I need to like come down, regulate myself over. People pull back the attention on them, they center themselves and then they make it about them, make it about their discomfort. Yes, you know, they're not able to really be present at that level that only seems intuitive for like maybe for like you know, mothers of young babies, because you you can't personalize what what a little baby does to you, but it's easier to personalize what an adult does to you. I think that's part of huge issue why a lot of adults um have trouble healing or finding support to heal, you know. Yeah that's that's a big one.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Well, and I think that you know, again, I don't gas my husband up because he's gonna listen to this. I I say it because I think that it is a very unique trait that he has. He comes from a very uh family that's full of love, all of those things. And just recently we were watching a show, we love the show called Will Trent. And in the show, his Will's like detective um partner's mother gets kidnapped and she's searching for her mom. Now, I don't know if the mom's a narcissist because I don't diagnose, but the mom was like super emotionally immature, you could tell, because the voice in the daughter's head was like mean. Like, you're never gonna find me, you're a whore, like all the things that you can imagine. And my husband paused. And he said, Is that what it sounds like in your head? I said, like a thousand times worse. And he's like, Well, how do you what? Like he he was astonished. He's all it's like rainbows and cupcakes, and like you're awesome in my head. I was like, Yeah, you had your mom, your dad, your amazing grandmother, you had all of those things to help build a foundation that was beautiful and it has grown on that. And I and no one can tell you any different. Whereas if somebody were to come to me, like, and I see this a lot um, like with um nonprofit leaders, there's like this imposter syndrome. If they get like if a board chair says, Oh, hey, you know, it would be really great if you made this Excel spreadsheet to look like this, they're like, Oh my gosh, sure, no problem. And but on the inside, they're screaming, I can't believe I messed that up. And that's the constant struggle um that I personally have, where it's constantly my mom's voice in my head telling me all of the things that she said while I was growing up, right? And and I think that if people could put forward other people first, meaning like when we when we meet someone, because the curiosity that you give is really not curiosity for the other person, it's your cure curiosity for them. But if you could put like take a moment and listen to learn, not listen to respond, that a lot of the conflict that we see in our other work or the conflict in the world would really disappear. And I think that, but and then that takes us down to thing, but maybe they want the conflict. There's like this whole other thing. But you know, I think that if we could really take a moment, and what I always tell um our our leadership people, and then also um women that I'm helping with this is like take a tick, take a pause, take a breath before you respond. If you're still talking to your mom, you're not no contact, like we are, take a tick. Like, is this worth the 10 spoons that I'm gonna have to give you? And then I'm gonna go lie in bed, have a nervous system crash, be totally exhausted, and not enjoy me my weekend, or should I just let it go and not talk to you for the rest of the weekend? Right. And so I think that is like really, really an important thing. And I don't think that we as a society talk about the absolute destroying that this kind of abuse does to your nervous system. It's like if I um like sniff a narcissist out, or if I get like a message for my mom, which I've blocked her so that they all go in a special folder. But if I decide to like torture myself and go look, instant tummy ache. Like it's an instant tummy ache. I'm like, I I need to use a restroom, instant tummy ache.

SPEAKER_03 25:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Um, my daughter, she's highly sensitive. Uh we have two of them that are, but they like anytime they have a tummy ache, I'm like, they're they're burnt out. I can tell immediately. Like it's a okay, what do you need? Here's a heating pad here, go lie down, go rest. So thank you for calling that out and waxing on it a little bit because I think that it needs to be heard.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't need to. There's so many, so much to to say on this. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Yeah. Well, and I'm gonna have you back, don't worry. So we can say all the other things and we can keep saying them.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

So um, love having conversations like that.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Good, good. So, you know, one of the things that you write about that you talk about um on your Instagram is that um, you know, you were raised into neglect, and I'm sorry, because besides having an awesome bang, you are a really amazing person. So, like let's let's put that out there. But thank you, um, realizing what you needed through that contrast. So, what for you were like the early clues for you that your needs were not being met as a child?

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Ooh, hmm. I don't know if I even identified that my needs are not being met when I was a child. Um I mean, when I was like 12 or 13, I recognized that something was wrong with my mom. I was like, yeah, something's wrong. Something's wrong here. Um and then I don't know. I think maybe if you have like a more specific question that would help me figure out where to go.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Um where did she like what was it that you were like, oh, because I think um I'm going to make a guess that her like attitude like started to like exacerbate at that time. Like there was more there, and you will also there were more different needs for you too at that 12 and 13 as you're growing growing up and you know going through all the things that you go through at that that age. I know for me that was about the same time. And what I found now that I'm going to realize that, yeah, that I realized like my mom, there's something going on. Like this is not normal. And um and I and I also felt the difference in the need because of that. Like I'm going through perimenopause right now, and my girls need like different things for me. And when they need something, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna put this on the back burner for a second. Yes, I might be roasting or feel overwhelmed or anxious or whatever it is, but let's take care of their needs first, just for a second. But if I'm at that point where I'm like, I gotta take care of me, I gotta put the you know, air mask on me, I'll take a tick for that. But you mentioned like that age. So what do you what do you remember about that age? Or what did you remember where you're like, oh, that doesn't seem right?

SPEAKER_02 28:28

Yeah. So when I realized um that something was wrong when I was like 12 or 13, um, I had like a family therapist at the time that my mom would go to and she took us kids to. I had a brother and a sister um and older, I was at YMS. Um, but I would go to the therapist and complain and gr grieve and whatever, talk about my my grievances uh about my mom. And then he just had this pattern of you know, saying like, um, I'm so sorry that's happening, you know, but he wasn't actually proactively doing anything. So yeah, so that's when I recognized something was wrong. Um, you know, and yeah, um, and then when you made the air mask analogy, that reminded me of, you know, and again, I don't think that I consciously recognized that I wasn't really thinking in terms of needs and categorizing needs or whatever at this time. But when I was 16, I had a breaking point where I was tired of surviving, I was tired of being a daughter scapegoat of a narcissist, and I had zero energy, zero capacity left. And I was suicidal. I never had any desire to actually kill myself or to actually die.

SPEAKER_03 30:08

Right, but ideations.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Yes, I I I was just too exhausted to to emote, to speak, like this to breathe. Like, and um, so I told the the family therapist, I was like, I don't know what to do. I'm too exhausted of existing, you know, under this. And he suggested that I submit myself to a psych ward and they can help you there. So I did that. I know, I know. Let's get a rain cloud for that one.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Let's get a rain cloud for that one. He what a loser. Come on, it's gonna come out. I don't know if it's of course now, right? Like usually just gonna imagine a rain cloud. There's rain clouds, yeah. I will put it in later.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

Storms, yes, storms. Um, and it's even weather out my window right now. But so anyway, I that was the kind of a moment where I was like, I surrender, I can't do this, and then like Q, all of that systemic shame, yeah, whatever that was talking about here. Um, but yeah, I was in there for a week. Um and I mean I can go more into details some at some point or later or whatever, but yeah, um, yeah, I think that was one of the first moments where I was like, I need something that I'm not getting. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

Um so I'm so sorry. That for first of all, I think so. First, I want to point out Butter, the emotional support cat. He is solid. This is some solid like support.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

This is this is my queen, the queen of my universe. Oh, queen.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

I'm sorry. I I I am so sorry I misgendered you. Miss Miss Butter.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

She can be a boy.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Um, you know, it's really interesting that you bring that up. I think that one of the things that I I also experienced this part of it, not the, you know, the the uh therapist or the counselor trying to commit me, but them like not being equipped. And I think that if I could like put a flag in for therapists, that I know that narcissists don't go to therapy, but if they do, it could look like this. And I think that there's like a lot of this, like if we talk about family court and narcissists like snowing over therapists and going through this, and um and dare I say, like it's a lot of like victim shaming, because my assumption on the other side of that family therapy is your mom saying something to the effect of she's too much, I can't handle her, she's so sensitive, all of these things that are not that are not true, but to a untrained, and I say untrained in this specific type uh personality disorder, there is a lot of damage that can occur. And it can not only occur with the person who is the narcissist, but can occur throughout a family. And I would even take it a little further that it is quite possible that your mom created the scenario in order to do something like this. Yes. Okay, so we're on this we're on the same page, we're same, same here because I think that things like this do not happen because of a coincidence. I think that um one thing that I know about narcissists, and we see it all over, is they are in it for the long game, right? So if there is something that just happens to fall in their lap and they can move forward with it, I think that is what I see with a lot of narcissists, whether it's a romantic relationship, a familial relationship, whatever it is. The really sick part of that whole thing is this you go through all this, you experience things like this, therapists that don't listen to you, maybe uh things go a little bit further, and then you decide to leave. All right, so you could do that, and the really fucked up thing that narcissists do is they plant, like I say, they plant these little IEDs in your head to where you're grieving the loss of them who are total fucking assholes. Like that's the thing that get like and then you're struggling with yourself. It's like, why am I sad? Because my mom's not here. Oh, I'm grieving this, but she was a total like, see you next Tuesday. Like, I can't put in any nicer than that. Like, seriously, and that yep, uh that to me is the maddening part. So I want you to know that you are seen. Fuck your mom. If we need to ride tonight, we'll ride tonight. You and me, I'll be out to Arizona and we'll go wherever she is, and I will kick her ass for you. But please, that is not assault, just so we know liability waiver, not assault. It's totally sentiment.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

It is not literal, yes, overstuped. I will say too that like as as unserious as the like obviously you're not being literal, but like hearing those words, like I need to hear that. Like, yes, it's every now and then.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Like, yeah, you you fuck that. Like, that's what I had to say. Fuck that. Because you know, especially now when our every I think what I've seen is a lot of people's nervous systems are just kind of like out of whack. And it doesn't matter what side you fall on, right? If you fall on the wrong side and think that abusing kids is okay, fuck you. That's all I have to say. But you know, um, yeah, that's what I have to say. But that to me is like really, really crazy. And you know, the other thing I want to call out is I want to talk about how I think this is definitely like a Western thing. And I would even say that this is probably like an Asian thing, because I um, you know, I'm uh biracial, so I see this a lot in the Asian culture where um that anger or any emotion is like push it down, right? And anger is a natural emotion, and when emoted in a way where it's not a danger to anybody else, is totally acceptable. I can be upset about stuff if I want to, and I can be mad about it. You know, the thing that I find for me is when I always get um, I feel like I'm on fire when I'm in a in a disagreement, like with like if I'm not agreeing with someone that I really care about, I feel like I'm on fire. And I'm like, okay, how do I put it out? How do I put it out? Like, what's going on? That literally is the way I feel all the time. And I I don't think that people understand that. Like, I you know, I I want to talk about like red flags when we talk about red flags, when we're talking about connections that can't be survived, like you can't provide in that basic safety or love or care. And when I feel like I'm on fire for it, whatever it is, like what I need is it's okay and you're safe. And I think a lot of survivors need that. Um, what do you like as you're going through? What could you like if someone was listening and they feel like maybe they're what are some red flags that you would say if you're feeling this, you might want to like chew on that a little bit more because it might be a red flag?

SPEAKER_02 38:06

Yeah, yeah. Um, first of all, thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

It is so real, it is so real and so relatable and so vulnerable to kind of feel like baseline is just I think naming it is a really, really important thing because and I want you to know this because I I really just want to punch your mom in the face, like and that therapist in the face. Like I have a real like gut oral reaction to it. Um is that you know, you're safe here and you're not broken. Like how any therapist that's telling someone they're broken because of a mental health challenge, or not even challenge, that's uh because of their mental health, them seriously, like that's not the way it works. Yeah, correct. We're all wired differently, yeah. We're just wired differently, and that's totally okay. So back to our red flags. I wish I wish Mac had the red flag thing, like I could like bring up a red flag. Yeah, that would be so awesome. I'm going to, I'm going to. So what are red flags for you in regards to like this?

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Yeah. So like spotting, narcissistic, or even just like unsafe tendencies. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So yeah. So I'll share. Um, I would say number one, get to know your body, get to know your emotions, spend time, make space, and that way you can discern when something is out of line, and then decide what kind of nuance to approach that misalignment with from there. It's really just all my discernment comes from like body wisdom, you know, the pattern mapping, sensations, whatever. That's like a huge chunk of it. And then to on a more literal, tangible level, um, I will give you an example because that's the easiest. Yeah. Um, my first love, uh, I was he was narcissist, he had narcissistic tendencies. He wasn't full-blown, you know, overt like mom, but he really he abused me in some ways. And uh the first red flag that I ignored because I was just in a washing machine of abuse and whatever. I was 18 at this time, but um the first red flag was um it was like three months into our knowing each other, and I told him, I said, Sometimes I feel like you don't listen to me. And his response was, you don't think I don't you don't think I feel the same way sometimes? And it was like that right there. Yeah, yeah, you walk the other way, you know. Yeah, but yeah. So if someone makes you feel unsafe, or I would say if you feel like you have to fight to be heard or to get your needs met, or you know, another one is like character assassination, big reason why we care to shame, right? Like I'm just you know, if if you can't name something that you need without somebody getting defensive or deflective or you know, um making jabs at your character, it's like first of all, that says way more about them than it than it ever did, does or will say about you. Um you know, and in the in the capacity to articulate a new need clearly is like a very it's a it's a skill that a lot of people don't even have, but right, you know, yeah. Do you feel safe? Do you feel valued? Do you feel validated? How does your body feel when you are in their company? Do you kind of clench up? Um, and you know, or do you feel peace? Do you feel at ease? Do you feel like yourself? Whatever. I mean, there's so many, yeah, basic things like that, but and then there's so much more.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

Um yeah, yeah. I love that you when you were talking about the body reaction in regards to like their response to you. Um, I think that that's a really important thing. You know, as someone who has, I'm not completely healed, like I don't want to say that. There are still like little bombs that are planted in my head. There is self-sabotage that happens sometimes. There's all the things that, you know, a recovery from narcissistic abuse that happens. So I'm not perfect in any sense. The big thing is for me is the body sensations when I start to feel some kind of way. And that's the way that I describe it. I feel something, then something's off. And that could be even before someone speaks, I can feel that. I had I met someone and I vocalized to my husband. I said, I think that person's a narcissist. And within 30 seconds, it was there. He was like, Whoa, I can't believe I because it there is this energy that emits from them. And you know, really good narcissists can hide it. And but really people who have been through narcissistic abuse can really find it fast. Because it's like once you unsee it, like you can once you see it, you can never unsee it. Yes. Um, it's like radar. It's my it's my you know, narcissistic radar. And I for me, I just steer clear of it because it Just it's it makes sense. Like I don't want to go through any of that stuff. And yes, like I don't because it takes here's the real thing. It and I don't think I we've talked about it briefly, the nurs like the nurse nervous system reset, but I don't think people understand like what a reset or that performative care looks like. Like all the things that you have to do in order to get back to zero. Like I I look at it like a bank account, right? So you are with the narcissist and you are just overcharges all the way down, right? But if you're with someone that is really helping feed your soul, you you're just growing. It's a wealth of energy. And so I think that it's really important for people to understand what performative care looks like in real life.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Yes. Okay, so just to clarify, when you say performative care, you mean like literally when someone is pretending to care, but they don't and it's a performative, yes, yeah, versus yes. That's what I that's what I thought. So um let's see. So my thoughts on discerning performative care versus actual care.

SPEAKER_01 45:15

Yeah, and then why it can be so damaging for survivors to make the see the fake, yeah, to miss the to miss the whatever it is that you miss in regards to that care.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Okay, are you ready? Because I have a story.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Okay, let's go.

SPEAKER_02 45:33

Okay. So this is a big one. So um last year, we're recording this in March 2026. Last year in January 2025, I almost died. My my whole body was shutting down. Yeah. And you know, we all know how abuse makes us sick, whatever. I yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

But yeah, this was it, this was it.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Yeah, yeah. Um, so um I have also an aunt, and she is more of a covert narcissist in a different costume. She's the love and light version.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Okay, got it.

SPEAKER_02 46:16

Yeah. She's uh, you know, and she she's a brilliant scientist and whatnot, but you know, covert narcissist. So anyway, she was providing the semblance, she was providing the performative care, the semblance of care. I was bedridden for a few weeks in the beginning of last year, and my aunt would call me on the phone every day. And um, you know, viewers make make note of this. If if someone explains how they're caring for you or what they're doing, instead of actually showing the career's yellow red flag, right? So she would do that. She would call me and she would say, Hi Leah, I'm just I'm just calling you to let you know that I care and just want to make sure that I'm you know calling you and seeing how you're doing, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_03 47:16

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

And okay, it held me over. It was good enough for what I thought. I don't even know, whatever. So that went on every day. And part of my my illness, my health issues. So basically, the short story of what I was going through is I was dealing with unchecked parasites and systemic toxicity for my whole life. Okay, it got to a point where I was overloaded, my body was shutting down, my skin barrier was completely broken. I was going to sleep and waking up every single day with my actual like nerves in deep inside my skin, like like feeling like someone was stabbing them with needles because the toxins um chafe up against the myelin sheath, the protective fat that wraps around the nerves, and it touches the nerve and it it erodes the fat. So when you have so much systemic toxins in your body, it creates this unbearable kind of rawness. And so I would scratch. I mean, I still have some like little scars that won't show up on the camera from like spots scratching constantly for like weeks, like months, literally months. Um, and I I don't know, I would take a shower, for example, and you know, tremble for hours afterwards. I couldn't wear clothes, I couldn't do anything. I was like dysfunctional, neurological issues, whatever. So that was kind of the state that I was in. And that was what I was going through when my aunt was calling me every day, like, hey, I'm just letting you know I care. And one day I was venting about the state of my skin and how I was so pissed off and sad and full of grief that I couldn't function and I couldn't, I couldn't breathe without ripping my skin open. My I would wake up covered in just like dead skin everywhere. Like it was, I'm not even kidding. Like my skin barrier wasn't working at all for like weeks, and then it took months for it to heal. So, anyway, I was complaining about that to my aunt, and her spiritual bypassy reply was, you know, you're so lucky to be so sensitive. And that that was a breaking point. And uh, you know, among the other words that I said in my text reply to her, I said, fuck you. I said, fuck you to her, and that fuck you just blew up in her mind, and it was the only thing that existed, right? Like her invalidation of me and my rejection of that, my rejection of that and my anger, my lividity was all of a sudden the most important thing in the world to her, and I didn't matter anymore, you know. And she never once asked what she could do. Can I cook for you? Can I do this for you? Do you need me to come over today? Do you need me to help you? Whatever. None of that. Nope, just work, work, work. So, anyway, uh the performance illusion bubble popped when I said fuck you, and she ghosted me three weeks after that point. And I was like, I'm just not gonna respond to this bitch because let's just happens. Let's just see. Let's just see. I'm already like I already am kind of realizing the c the cost of my precious life right now as I'm in such a dire situation that I can afford to let her show her true colors and not reach for her, whatever. Because if she really is like evil, then I don't want to, you know, keep entangling. Anyway, right, three weeks later, she responded finally, and the first thing she said was, Hey, yeah, I accidentally ordered groceries to your house and there's meat in there. Do you think you could put them in the fridge?

SPEAKER_01 51:14

Fucking bitch. Ugh.

SPEAKER_02 51:17

I know, I know. And then I ignored her from then on. Um, but she kept asking me for favors, yeah? And it's like when I when I realized that, and then my a similar situation happened to catalyze me making the decision that I'm going to become estranged from my mother, my narcissistic abusive abusive mother. So with my mom, I was having a flare-up and I was laying on the floor of my bedroom, and I called her in because I needed a human body there in case I needed water, in case I needed help standing, in case, you know, survival. Um, so she came and just sat on my bed while I laid on the floor, like naked under a towel, sitting in front of a space heater. I couldn't regulate my own body temperature. This is in Southeast Florida, by the way. It's hot there, and I needed to sit in front of a space heater. Um, because I couldn't wear clothes because my skin just couldn't work.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:14

Yeah, unbearable. So um she sat there for no more than like 10 minutes, and you know, she's always on her phone. So she was on her phone then, and she got a call from her work, and then um I knew that she would abuse me for getting mad at her, but I got mad at her anyway, and I let myself rage. And I said, You're so fucking selfish. I can't believe you you can't stay with your sick daughter for more than 10 minutes when I'm literally the most vulnerable that I have been in my life, other than you know, infancy. Like I was dependent. Yeah, yeah. And and she called me selfish, and she was like, You have no idea how important this work call is for me, blah blah blah. But I'm like, wow, and so that was the moment that I realized, like, yeah, this woman is so sociopathic, she doesn't have empathy, and neither does my aunt past a certain point, you know. Um, so that's when the bubble burst to the deeper layer where the the nature of their care, performative care, was revealed to me. And why is that harmful for survivors not to realize that is because, well, when you don't realize that you're susceptible to eventually realizing it, yeah, and then you know, going through that kind of death loss, yeah, like on a nervous system level, that death of realizing like your primary attachment figure is your is your mother, your parents, you know, your family, and realizing that they're freaking sociopathic, they lack empathy, they literally care less if you died.

SPEAKER_03 54:03

Like, yes, like yes, you're gonna go there.

SPEAKER_02 54:06

Like when you were talking about the long game thing, it's like yeah, genuine narcissists, especially if they have sociopathic tendencies, which so many of them do, yeah, they are unbothered if you're dead. It's they want it anyway. You know, it's interesting first.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

I wanna like I'm trying to hug you. Like, I know you're so far away. I'm trying to hug you. Fuck your mom, you are such an awesome person. Fuck her, fuck your aunt, fuck them all. So that's number one. Number two, thank you for sharing that because I know like it brings up a lot of stuff, and your nervous system probably like is like, ah, right. So um, butter, your mama needs you, just go over there. That's the um, and and to build on that death part, like they don't care if you're dead, like there are there's like a ton of like it's fad right now. I'll say fad, like a lot of Munchhausen by proxy documentaries are movies. Um, and there's a lot of comorbidity with narcissism, sociopathic um tendencies, are there a sociopath um narcissism and this munchhausen by proxy because it brings attention to them. And that same like clarity to know like you having that clarity of she could give a fuck if I'm dead, is the same clarity that clicked me out of it with my mom. Where you know, I remember the conversation I I talked about in another podcast where I was like sitting on our stairs, and I said to my husband, who had seen me probably for about six months, it was the first six months of our relationship, seen me struggle with my mom, seeing other things go on. And I said, you know, I it's I'm so upset. I'm so upset. My mom could get a fuck if I was dead. And he said, No, she couldn't. And I was like, and that that comment just kind of snapped me out of this. Like, I don't want to be in this circle. I don't want to go round and round. I don't want to play this to and fro with my mom. She's my fucking mom. She's supposed to love me no matter what I look like, no matter who I am, no matter what's going on. I'm supposed to be able to run to her house if something bad happens. Fuck this noise. I'm not doing this anymore. And that was the moment that I was like very similar to yours in a very different way. I am so incredibly sorry that you had to go through that and to get to that point because it's it's fucking shitty. Like I can't even think, like, I'm very sensitive to touch. Like I have to have certain things on me. I can't even think of I can't fathom how difficult that was. So I am so incredibly sorry that you went through it. And fuck your mom and fuck your aunt and fuck anybody who let you go through that. I'm it's it's Friday, you know, the end of the week and the long week, so fuck it, you know, like that's a thing. Um and then to blame you, that's the part, right? Yeah, she blamed you, like you were very vulnerable in that moment, the moment of what you where you were at, but also vulnerable to tell her, like, hey, that was a really shitty thing. If she would have stopped and been like, you know what, it was shitty. I'm really sorry, you would have been like, okay, like there's some growth, maybe we can like repair this, but no, she didn't do that. And and and and here is the other carrot. I am not gonna let anyone say, Well, her work was hard, like she needed that. No, fuck you. My kid is not well. Fuck work. It if it's not there tomorrow, fuck it. We'll figure out another job. Anything to do with my family. If there's anything that's happening with my family, fuck it. I'm gonna drop whatever I'm doing. Like, as we were talking right now, my daughter is actually sick or my all our oldest. So I messaged her really quick to see how she's doing, so I could say, Hey, do you want me to instacart you something? Like, she was asking for a soup earlier, but she's been, you know, there's this horrible call that's going around in this area. So I wanted to, you know, check in on her. That's what parents do. Like, yeah, yeah, like that's what parents do.

SPEAKER_02 58:47

And yeah, and I can I add too to this, yeah. Yes, of course. You know, one of the like things that makes narcissistic abuse so insidious is that like I can recall times that my mom went out to the store and bought me my favorite mac and cheese. You know what I mean? Like I've been sick and I've been before, you know, so it's it's it's it's tough when you have that contrast. Um, and then another thing that I'll add too for um context, and this is gonna blow your mind, but the thing that the reason that the the the the call that she took in that moment was because she was receiving an award at her work. Fuck your mom. Fuck your mom. Seriously, ugh gross. So gross. I know, and I get this as well. I created a GoFundMe for myself um for my um, I was getting hyperbaric oxygen therapy.

SPEAKER_01 59:44

Yeah, it's expensive in our healthcare system. That's another podcast, but yes, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:50

So I created that and I shared it on my Instagram. I shared it with um my extended family group chat. And I've never been like warm or close with my extended family group. I'm in the group chat, yeah, whatever. So I sent uh a message to all of them um saying, like, hey, I don't expect any of you to donate to this, but please read this and share it if you can. This is what I'm through right now. It's kind of a dire situation. And all that happened was I got two compassionate text messages from two family members, you know, but I didn't get any help other than that. And then in the same uh chat, my mom, you know, criticized my my wording in the in my go fund me. And then she sent a photo of herself holding this award at her workplace into the group chat, and everybody was like, Congratulations, you know. Yeah, so yeah, you know, so it was like the I was like my mom, my aunt, and now my whole family. Yeah, they're dead to me after all of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:00

Like, and that's the thing that killed, like for me, that is what kills me because you know I don't talk to like 95% of my family. Some of it is as a result of being biracial. There is some like really heavy racism that's going on in my family that um, you know, since my grandfather died, they can't seem to keep in check. And so there's that aspect of it, and stupidity or um education level will not save them from that. Like, meaning they can't say, Oh, well, I didn't know that. When they apologize, they don't apologize based on impact, they apologize based on their own intent. So that's like I said, a whole nother podcast. Like I say to you, I see you, I see that. That's so fucked up. Like, you don't even have to explain it to me. I know it's fucked up, and there's no shame in you saying this stuff. Like, I totally get it. I mean, the podcast is about it, and I totally get it, right? Um, but it one of the things that's so hard for a lot of narcissistic survivors is finding those people who are your people, like who are your chosen family, finding your community. Um, because it's really hard for us to trust, but also really hard for people to hear some of the stuff. And and one thing I want to say for anybody who loves someone who's a narcissistic survivor, one of the best things you can do for them is listen and then tell them that you see them, because that's not anything that anybody's ever done for us before. I and I think that that for me, um, that trauma bonded me to my husband, and now we're forever together, is what I tell him. Um, but what for you? What are your like most important values that you look into when you're making these new connections? We talked about, you know, you go into that community group and it was a little bit, you know, not exactly what it is. But when you're making those new connections, are when you're ready to open yourself to more, right? Because a lot of times we close ourselves down just so that we can get back to zero, get to where we need to be. But your bangs are gonna like attract some guys. I know this. So I I I'm very jealous of people who can rock a good bang because I look like a two-year-old. So um, but tell me like what are some of the things that you value the most when you're looking for those new connections?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:46

So I think for me, um, I think like one of the care one of the characteristics that I value the most in like a close relationship is when someone has the capacity to put their ego to the side. And we can exchange like unconditional presence, like and that's really, really, really important to me because emotions, you know, they're tricky as it is, but then I also really, really, really value when a person has space inside themselves to relate with their own emotions, um, spaciousness, inner spaciousness, curiosity, because when you have that space, there's uh less uh friction or less tension when it comes to um connecting in places that are really deep, really uncomfortable. Um, and then also I would say the maturity and capacity and awareness to um navigate the tight squeeze parts, you know. Um so yeah, I think that I'm gonna say like when someone trusts the intelligence of their ego and of their body. I think I think that's like probably one of my number ones because you know yeah, I'm here to explore and share experiences and not to engage in any kind of like micro-aggressive war type relating. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:36

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's like that whole like mean girl thing, like death by a thousand cuts. Like, I I hate I'm not good at that kind of stuff. Like I can probably dish it out and make you cry, but I don't want to. Like, that's not who I am. I got claws. Yeah, just because they're not out all the time doesn't mean I can't do it, you know, and so that I think. Is really really important. Said navigate being able to navigate those tight spots or those tight squeeze spots is really important because if you can't be there during the ugly, I don't want you there during the good times.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:17

Like I know, like, like um, like I said to you earlier, like, okay, we're writing at dawn, we're gonna go take care of business. Like, I that is something I really like, who will I do that what for? I do that for my husband, my mother-in-law, and my kids, and probably my grandmother-in-law. That loyalty in a sense of but but without loyalty without like taking off your air mask is really important because we're nothing if we can't take care of ourselves. So that's for me, that's really, really like an important thing. I want to talk a little bit, yes, I want to talk a little bit about your toolkit and this like sustainable rewiring. So can you tell me? I kind of probably know what uh what made you think about doing this, but like what made you shift from okay, uh this is something I did for me. What can I do to turn this into something that will be useful to others?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:24

Right. Yeah. Um, so I think my my faith is like the re the answer to that. So um, and it's a great question. The reason where the reason why I decided to start using my discoveries tools to help other people empower was because between all of the moments where basically I think just to keep it simple, in all the moments where I was, you know, at my weakest basically, or if I you know whatever, I the the strength that got me through was knowing that if I survive this, I'm going to come out of it with love to give to somebody else who's going through this alone. And that was my motivation. That was what pulled me through the hardest of the hard of the hard times, um, like last year. So I would say really it was just like faith and just like almost like a perverted excitement, like a weird kinky excitement. Yeah, yeah. Like yeah, yeah. And come out still glowing in some way. I'm gonna give people my tools, you know, and give the the comfort and the love, you know, it's like the light gets in through the cracks, you know, like all of the trauma, dark spaces that I survived through. I found I call it, you know, God's love, unconditional love, whatever. I found in myself. And so I'm like, if if I'm surviving this for any reason, it's so I can I can give love to other people who who need it in in those cracks, you know, that is so hard to find yourself because it's like in that place, it's like you either look up or you look you cave inward and you collapse. Yes. And it's you know, in at that juxtaposition countless times throughout my life. So that's what motivates me to share and to be here and have conversations and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:46

So many people will um gain value to that, and we'll make sure that we put the links to your toolkit and all that in the show notes so people can figure out how to get a hold of you. What I would love for you to share, or what I would love for us to close on, is what do you wish that more people understood about the true cost of healing after that narcissistic abuse and how they can like see the light and get past it.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:20

I will say is that you were not wired the way that you were wired in vain. You are perfect as you are, period. There's no arguing with that. You are perfect, you're perfect. Um, and of course, you know, nobody's perfect, but it's like, no, you're you're wired how you are, and there's a divine intelligence in that. And so any, you know, you I don't want people to feel shame for needing what they need, for hurting how they hurt, and for hurting openly in places that maybe nobody else knows how to address or how to handle. Maybe you've never felt loved or supported in this particular way or area of your life before, but that does not mean something's wrong with you. I just want people to walk away from this and from through the rest of their lives being free from shame and feeling at peace and in love, feeling love in themselves because that's because they are their your nature is love. You're created in love, you know. Um, and if you think something's wrong with you, you know, or you're at fault somehow, it's it's that's not the case. You're just living in a world in weird times and unfortunate circumstances where you don't have the support you need, and that's really hard and devastating to realize, but it's so liberating to be able to name it and it's empowering because the more we can point a finger and say, This is bad, this is not good for me, and this is what I need, even if no one's able to meet it. It's like, let's get louder about what we need so that we can build that and pioneer that for future generations, god forbid, who are going through the same thing, but like, you know, so that we can create the soft landing pad for other people that we never had, you know. But shame is just it's a lie, you know. So that's what I want people to walk away from with from this.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:28

I cannot thank you, Aaliyah and Miss Butter, enough for being with me today. I really appreciate all shoot. Um, I really, really appreciate you being vulnerable with me and talking about this like really difficult time in your life and like where you are on the other side. I think it's gonna bring a lot of just healing to a lot of people. So thank you. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you, Aliyah, for being with us today. And thank you for listening. If this resonates with you, I want you to remember you're not too much and you were never the problem. Make sure you like, subscribe, and follow the Beyond Mommy Daris podcast and share with someone who you think might need this. Until next time, keep choosing yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:22

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