How Narcissistic Abuse Rewires Your Nervous System: Self-Trust, Boundaries & Healing

In this powerful episode of Beyond Mommy Dearest, Noelani sits down with narcissistic abuse recovery coach Sami for an honest conversation about healing, self-trust, nervous system regulation, and breaking free from toxic relationship patterns.

Sami shares her personal journey through multiple narcissistic relationships and explains how those experiences led her to become an advocate and coach for survivors. Together, Noelani and Sami explore the connection between childhood wounds, people-pleasing, emotional neglect, and the unconscious patterns that can keep survivors stuck in cycles of narcissistic abuse.

The conversation dives deep into the physical signs of narcissistic abuse, including anxiety, insomnia, chronic headaches, hypervigilance, digestive issues, and the feeling that "something is off" even when everything appears fine on the surface.

Noelani and Sami discuss:

• Why survivors often struggle to trust themselves

• How childhood experiences shape adult relationships

• The difference between healthy boundaries and controlling behavior

• Why people-pleasing develops as a survival strategy

• How narcissists teach survivors to gaslight themselves

• What self-trust actually feels like in the body

• Common nervous system responses to emotional abuse

• Why healthy relationships can initially feel "boring"

• The importance of reconnecting with emotions and body awareness

• The role of coaching versus therapy in recovery

• How to recognize red flags before getting trapped in another toxic relationship

• Why healing is not linear

• Learning to choose yourself without guilt

• The connection between abandonment wounds and toxic relationships

• Why survivors deserve love exactly as they are right now

One of the most powerful moments of the episode comes when Sami reminds listeners that they do not need to earn love through healing, perfection, or performance. They are worthy of love simply because they exist.

If you've ever questioned your instincts, struggled with boundaries, or wondered why you keep attracting emotionally unavailable people, this episode offers practical insights and hope for recovery.

Connect with Sami

 Linktree iconFree resources & morelinktr.ee/samanthabachotacoaching

https://www.facebook.com/samibachota?utm_source=ig&utm_medium=social&utm_content=link_in_bio

https://www.instagram.com/informed_healing/

Connect with Noelani | Beyond Mommy Dearest

• https://www.facebook.com/BeyondMommyDearest/
• https://www.tiktok.com/@beyond.mommy.dearest
• https://www.instagram.com/beyondmommydearest/

Resources Mentioned
 • Feelings Wheel - https://canva.link/9volf8vn68ucp1g
 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

You're listening to the Beyond Mommy Daris podcast, where we talk about growing up with narcissistic moms, how it shaped your nervous system, your relationships, and your sense of self, and how to heal without shame.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

I'm your host, Nelani Pearl Hernandez. This episode is sponsored by the Happy Cannabis, body products designed to help you on your healing journey by supporting your nervous system with every application.

SPEAKER_04 0:25

Welcome back to the Beyond Mommy Dears podcast. Today I sit down with Narcissus Sammy to explore self-trust, nervous system healing, people-pleasing boundaries, and why survivors often repeat familiar relationship patterns. If you're healing from narcissistic abuse, this is a conversation for you. Absolutely. How long do you have?

SPEAKER_01 1:08

No, just kidding. So what really led me to it, and this is not to knock anyone because there are wonderful, wonderful, wonderful therapists out there, but it educated me on it's important to do some betting. And this is something no, I thought one therapist, they must know it all. They know everything about. And um, after a couple therapists and a marriage counselor, and then still getting into a relationship after being single for two years, getting into another relationship that was the worst relationship I've ever been in, the most dangerous relationship. I knew that there was something else deeper going on that needed my attention. And that's what got me into this. Cause I'm like, you know what, if all of these therapists didn't recognize it, and I learned that it's not standard part of their education, then what can I do to help? And I started making little posts here and there and getting comments, and I was like, Oh, there's other people out there. It's a book that I don't want to hurt anybody, so let me go to school and see what I can do to help. I don't have 15 years to go to school or anything, but let me see what I can do to at least help support people without harming them further, like I was formed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:21

You know, it's so interesting that you say that because, you know, I find on a daily basis that I like there's certain things that are super programmed in me. And like they're little IEDs, I call them, where like it'll hit a certain thing or I'll hit a certain threshold. And I'll have to go through like this activation, is what like my husband and I call it. Like if I get to certain or I feel something or I feel some kind of way, I have to go through this process. And it's it's crazy, like those types of things that narcissists like still like have planted in your brain. It's really crazy. You know, the other thing I want to comment on is I had someone on a couple of weeks ago and she was a therapist. So she went to school, did you know, the the two years of the master, and then the um then the supervision, and she said that she was seeing a lot of people who were having issues um recovering from narcissistic abuse. And so she went um through a certified training with Dr. Romani, and she said there's like 80 people in the US only that deal with it. And there's a whole bunch of us coaches that deal with it, right? And so she one of the things that I I want to make really clear to people as we're having this conversation is okay, yeah, no, we're not therapists, but coaching, um, and what person said was that coaching, like we ride in parallel. So we can help, they can help with the deep-rooted family systems while we um while we like look at the future. And I think that is like a super important thing because like when these IEDs, these you know, improv improvised explosive devices go off in our head, we can say, okay, let's stop. What is that reaction? So thank you for all your work that you're doing. I I'm I'm sorry that you had to go through it, but like sisters in healing, I'm I'm glad that we kind of like the healing community is so sweet, and I'm glad we all like we all found each other. Like there's a there's a bunch of us that just over the course of the last six months have. So I'm so glad you're here. Me too. And we're gonna stop, no matter what. I know them. Like, fuck you, don't make me be quiet. You're culpable, you're culpable. I'm gonna say something. So that's all they're trying to do is silence. I know, I and I don't understand as we look at the world around us. Like, I don't understand, like, well, I guess I do because there's a culpability they might feel liable for what's going on. I think that you know, the court systems as we go deeper into this, the court systems aren't like fit to like find these people. And you know, what might seem like it's high conflict oftentimes is that narcissism. And so we were, you know, talking before we started, and um one of the things that you shared with me, and I would love for you to share here is like what made you realize that these weren't just like relationships issues, and that there was something deeper like this narcissistic abuse, and like why they were like attracted to you.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Um, why they were that was a couple of questions, let me see. I know that was sweet. So what yeah. Well, what they were attracted, so and that's where it's like I try not to say that we attract them because I feel like that's so it kind of blames ourselves, but at the same time on us, yeah. There is you don't want to do that early in someone's healing, but there does become that point that you know, I'm like, what is it in me? Um that empathy, that you know, willingness to forgive everything, you know, look and make excuses and say, well, they didn't mean it. And that's because, you know, and that's what I learned in school, and that's what the difference between trauma informed is that it we are allowed to go back and revisit things. And when I did and was doing my trauma timeline, I was making a lot of connections with, you know, my parents not believing me, my parents not, you know, I never really fit in with my family. I felt like an outcast, even though I wasn't doing anything wrong. I was like the only one that my sister didn't graduate high school, I graduated high school. Um there was a lot of turmoil in my family for sure, but I just never felt like I belonged. And I was even told I was adopted at one point. So just I was wanting, yeah, that was you still your sister, you I know, I haven't talked to her in years, but um yeah, I still love her from a safe distance, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just realizing a lot of man, I for years thought because I was successful, we'll say, because I graduated, I didn't move to college, I finally had a family that my childhood didn't affect me when I had just gotten very good at those protector behaviors and putting on that mask that you know, and I'm ADHD too. So I got very used to functioning and putting on this, I wouldn't say fake, but performing the way I was like, this makes me look successful. So clearly my childhood didn't affect me, or I'd be on drugs, I'd be, you know, whatever. Um of that happened. So clearly it didn't affect me, but it definitely did because I my nervous system still sought out that familiar emotional unavailability in people because if I can make them love me, and that means I'm good enough and I'm lovable and I'm worthy.

SPEAKER_04 8:31

Yeah, you know that it's so interesting because I just had this conversation uh about like you go like going to what is the normal. And you know, one of the things that we we've talked about with our kids is like go out and be kind, of course, be kind, like be a kind person, but don't be nice because nice means like you're a pushover, and people will just bulldoze over you, even if that person is a kind person because they they can see that now. If you're kind you can draw your boundaries and you can say, okay, no, I still like you, but this is my boundary, right? Like what you just said, like I love my sister from afar, right? And I think that that means that you're kind not only to that person, but you're kind to yourself because that's not you know a healthy relationship. Um, you know, you were talking about your nervous system, and we were talking about, you know, one of the things that often um narcissistic abuse recovery coaches talk about is shifting from that trusting other people to trusting yourself, like knowing that trust within yourself. So, why do you think that is so important for people who are starting that healing journey and then you know becoming and embracing them being a survivor?

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Learning how to trust yourself. Because so many people, and I get it because I was there that said, I'm never gonna trust how am I ever gonna trust anyone again? It's nothing about trusting them, it's trusting, getting to a point to where you know what getting into a relationship, meeting someone, knowing that if they did walk away, it's not if they walk away, that's tied to my self-worth. It's if they walk away, or if I decide to walk away, it's I'm still gonna be okay because I'm dependent on me. And that's I trust myself now. And being able to look back and say, you know what, in the beginning of those both of those horrible relationships, something did feel off. No matter how good it was, in hindsight, I made excuses. Oh, he's really good to me, he's very attentive, he's this, that, the other. But I didn't trust my body because I had been so conditioned not to trust myself. Yeah. And now I trust anytime I feel something, I mean, I can just feel, and it's not it's not where you're like over protective of yourself and shut everyone off, but it's right, this doesn't feel right. Let me get curious about it and being comfortable having that conversation and recognizing is this person actually hearing me? Are they redirecting the conversation? Because those kinds of people are still gonna be drawn to you, and you're still gonna be a little bit initially attracted to them, but you're not, it's never gonna get that far again. As long as you've done the work to heal, it's not gonna be and you're gonna be challenging. These people do not like a challenge. A lot of them do not like a challenge, they're very lazy, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I'm very challenging. That's what if I haven't dated in a while, but when I did date, I called it research. I didn't call it dating. I love that. Well, let me ask them this and see how they respond.

SPEAKER_04 11:58

Right, right. Okay, hmm. Right. Well, and you know, the the thing I remember, you know, me coming out of the relationship, you know, I always say I had a well, I say I had a narcissistic mother. So of course, my first like big relationship where there was like a formal commitment, of course it was gonna be with the narcissist. Of course, like that makes sense. And I knew coming out of that relationship that I knew what I didn't like. There were certain things I didn't know what I wanted, but I knew what I didn't like. And I think for a lot of, and I see this with my daughters, a lot of little girls, there's like this fantasy, right? And I just saw Laura Richards just said it on uh one of her clips, you know, she's all I love Disney, but god damn it, Disney, like they make this like like romance and it the K-pop drama is like so like that's romantic and promposal, then all this stuff is supposed to happen. That's not real life. Like it's not real life at all. And I think that that when you're working with someone, when you're going alive together, when you're headed down the same path, that's different than you know, a crazy promposal. Yeah, like I and I think that you know a lot of people who have been through that narcissistic abuse, like push that self-trust, that gut interaction, like away. And um, two of our daughters, my oldest and my husband's youngest, because I we have four altogether, um, his are very sensitive. And we really like that's their superpower for that. Like we never tell them not to, it's we like work with them on how they can feel that emotion, not place it on everyone else, and then figure out what that means. And so for them, it's their tummies, right? And for a lot of people it is, it's like, oh, I got a stomach ache. That means something's gonna happen, right? So, what does um self-trust actually feel like for people in their body for someone who's been disconnected from it for so long?

SPEAKER_01 14:20

What does it feel like? That's a good question. What does it feel like? Um just knowing when something is off, and then I can remember very specifically knowing something didn't feel right and recognizing in the past how I would have gaslit myself and said, you know, this is my past talking because that's what people have told me. This is, you know, this is your insecurities, this is your whatever. And I was just like, and I really felt this shift. It was about a year and a half ago when I was dating someone, and I went much older. I was like, well, let me try this out. He's much older. Right, right. Yeah, um, I was like, let me just, you know, let me ask this question. And I was like, nope, that's it. And I said, you know, this isn't working for me. And having that just feeling that, you know what, no, it didn't feel right for me. I felt it wasn't just the hypervigilance. My body was saying, I'm picking up on these inconsistencies, and they're not receptive to actually being honest about it and saying, you know what, yeah, I've had an off few days, I haven't, whatever. Instead, they deflected and put it back on me. Well, I thought you were stressed. Like, no, I'm not falling for this again. It just being that's what it felt like. I felt very confident and being able to send that message. I just remember I was standing right there and I was like, I like the way this feels. Choosing instead of chasing someone or being like, maybe it really is me. No, it wasn't me. Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 15:54

Well, and that I think is a really important thing for people to understand is like narcissists know exactly what they're doing, right? And they know this whole like web that they weave where they're like gaslighting you so that they don't have again, we we said it, they're lazy, narcissists are lazy, so they gaslight you until you're gaslighting yourself, right? And they don't even have to do any work, you're gaslighting yourself that when you get a phone call, an email, or whatever from them are something that feels the same, your nervous system like ignites exactly the same way, so that you know, 30 years from now, at least with the narcissistic mom, 30 years from now, she doesn't even have to be around. And I'm still doing some of the stuff where I'm like, oh what the heck? Like, okay. And what it's the catching that that part of so that you know when you're overriding, and you just talked about it, like you're overriding that something feeling off and where you're going. But why do you think that so many survivors override that something's feeling off in that like that early moments or that early times when then in their healing?

SPEAKER_01 17:17

I'm sorry. Oh, early in their healing. Well, I would say it's just conditioning and not trusting, not being connected because a lot of us we dissociate, we check out, we go somewhere else, not being in tune, not even knowing who we are, because we lose who we are when we were the not necessarily parents, you don't really have who you are with parents, but when you're with these people, everything becomes about them. So you don't even know who you are without them. So who am I without this person? So early on, just that not knowing that well, what am I gonna do if they don't, if if this doesn't work out, right? As long as you have things that you can fall back on, like get back into things that you've always wanted to do that you never did. Find out what it is that really brings you joy outside of a human person, outside of kids, even outside of your spouse. Yep. Something that brings you joy, right?

SPEAKER_04 18:15

You know, it's really interesting because a lot of um ameshment happens with parents um and kids when when they are a narcissist. Um, we're we're reading this book, uh, I'm glad my mom died, um, where she talks about you know being a child star. Jeanette McCurdy talks about being a child star and how that emeshment happened with her mom. And that's a I think that learning that you like other things outside of that is really, really important because of course you can like like certain things as a couple or whatever, that's not a bad thing. But if there are certain things that you like, my husband loves cars. Like I love cars, but I'm not like into cars as much as he is. But I love listening to him talk about it because I think that it's important. And there's certain things that I love that he's like, okay, I'll listen. You know, not really my thing, but I'll listen to it. And I think that's a really important thing when it comes to a healthy relationship. You know, you alluded to it earlier. Um, but can't why don't we like riff a little bit on this? Like, can you explain why talk therapy alone sometimes isn't enough when you're recovering from this?

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Um, and there's a study that has actually proven that talk therapy can be more harmful if you keep just saying it over and over and over because you're really you're not going anywhere. You're just talking about it, and then you're just basically re-enviving over and over and over until you're just no. That's why I love the somatic part of it and the nervous system because you learn how to, okay, well, this is what is happening. What does it feel like in my body? Let's get back because a lot of times you're telling that story, you're not necessarily you can it's your body's feeling it, but you're not in tune with it yet, right? Right, right. Connect it, that's when you integrate, you're starting to connect. Oh, well, this is what it does feel like when something is off. This is what it feels like, you know, when someone's lying to me. And then you knew it, but you didn't trust it. Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 20:35

I think that's really important because when I think about when I think about therapy, and and I'll and I'll say this throughout this is therapy really talks about family systems, they talk about trauma, they discuss trauma, they experience that. Whereas coaching talks about, okay, yes, there was a traumatic experience, yes, that fucking sucked. Like that person's a douchebag. And how do we get to, you know, be so that this doesn't happen again? And it's a lot of that somatic, it's a lot of that, okay, affirmations of what you need to do. You know, I I have several clients that are now working on going no contact by their choice with their parent. And it's very interesting because even though they're very different, they're explaining it very similarly. Um they say, oh, well, the the my, you know, my mom called me and I didn't answer it, and I feel like I'm in trouble. Literally, word for word, both of them. And I'm like, okay, how does that like let's talk through that? Like you are, you know, a six year old woman, you are a 30 year old woman, you're an adult, you have your own agency. Why do you feel like you're in trouble? So there's that conversation. uh are they they say I feel like I'm on fire a lot. I feel like I I feel like I'm on fire. I feel like the other shoes about to drop.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:09

And I in I would love to explore like what are some of the other things like when I'm going through an activation like where I have sets myself up for something like my heart right jumps and then I go through this whole process of whatever it is if and I feel like I'm on fire. So what are some of the other things that people might experience when they've been through this narcissistic abuse as far as like physically like their body yeah their body so maybe they can start picking up on it it doesn't always mean that they are in narcissistic abuse but it's it could be as far as what is what are they feeling like while they're in it? Yeah yeah yeah while they're in it or or someone who's experienced it like what like like I talked about my girls and their tummy hurting. And I mean really my does too like when anything comes in with uh like if I get a voicemail from my mom my stomach starts to hurt like instantly so what are some things that could happen in someone's body that they could say you know what this this could be let's research it let's take a tick and dive a little bit deeper on it.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Well I do have a quiz about that but oh we will put that in the show notes um for me physically what I hear is that it's almost like people don't want to be away from their partner but if there's ever that break there's like this sense of relief if that makes any sense it totally does and I have a story on that um but go ahead keep going and for me very much so was there's two of them. So um with my first one whenever he would get home I would disappear and I didn't realize that I would disappear like I would we had two boys I would disappear and go upstairs do laundry stay busy but I would yawn a lot just constantly I was just exhausted but I was on a lot of antidepressants too um not on them anymore. Hmm wonder when that is not that no one needs it no right but yeah when I moved downstairs with uh the very short relationship the most dangerous one I moved downstairs until we could get ready to leave I remember one day he came home first off I was never allowed to sit down and my boys remember that very vividly we were talking about that not too long ago they were like interesting watch a movie with us no interesting had to be clean even though I never did anything I never did anything good enough I was just constantly interesting responsibilities um I just didn't feel like my body could rest I just constantly needed to be doing something all the time right um because he was judging me for it constantly I wasn't doing anything good enough or anything right um so interesting but I remember one day very specifically and that's when I really was like this is dangerous he came home it was early and I instantly almost wanted to throw up I heard and I was just like because I was it was like it was an unexpected time for him to be home. Yep nobody else was going to be home and I just felt so sick to my stomach oh that's so interesting yeah but I had daily headaches my headaches went away when my ex left overnight literally they literally went away yeah yeah went away when I was with this person I was with him for a few months and all of a sudden they came back daily and I remember checking into that I was like something's going on had been gone for a long time and all of a sudden and insomnia was a really big one for me as far as a physical thing I could not sleep laying next to these people I was on sleep medications it was and now I'm not but a lot of people can't sleep when they get out so it's different for everyone.

SPEAKER_04 26:10

You know it's so interesting that um you said that it like felt like a sense of relief I had a hypothetically I had a client who was going through a divorce working with a narcissist and the narcissist had um full full custody of their kids and when um the kids were able to like see the other parent um there was minors counsel involved and that's gonna be a whole other episode minors counsel but they were involved and so they let um the child know hey by the way you're gonna be spending your time with this other parent you're not gonna be able to see this parent because of the things that had happened and the comment that minors counsel had was that the child felt a sense of relief and that when you said that that was the first thing I thought about was that this child who was you know a little like young like not a teenager but younger had this natural sense of relief even though they probably didn't have the words to even explain but they know like and those are that's something that you know we as adults as we you know and especially in you know western culture we're told to like push down our feelings like don't don't fail your feelings like I'm going through perimenopause my feelings are my tears are all over my face right like and so I think that for someone who's listening right now what's one way that they might be able to reconnect if they're not going through perimenopause and they're not a child you know what how can they reconnect to their body safely so they can start feeling the feelings and processing them so that they can get out of this like if they're in a narcissistic relationship get out of it.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Well definitely don't ever tell the person you think they're in a narcissistic relationship don't ever don't ever say yeah made that mistake but um learn your emotions that's one of the first things I do with people I send them a list of or you can get a week online just learn name your emotions literally like put your hand on your chest put your hand wherever you're feeling it's typically between your neck and your lower abdomen or just put your hand on your chest and your stomach and just name the feeling out loud if you feel comfortable or in your head and say tie a sensation to this feeling like where are you feeling it in your chest is my heart racing am I feeling sick to my stomach am I feeling some people a lot of people use the word buzzing like a full body buzzing oh interesting okay I feel I do the on fire I feel on fire but buzzing very similar and just pay attention like really getting like what is this feeling where is it coming from I love asking why a lot why not why to blame yourself but why am I feeling this way what is the narrative that's going with this versus what is the reality that's happening right now. What is it saying a lot of a lot of healing that a lot of people don't understand is just being able to slow down.

SPEAKER_04 29:39

Yes um and I think for a lot of people because you know especially here again Western culture where it's always speed always everything's always always always always important this this this this and one of the things that narcissists do is they cause a panic all the time so that you literally don't have time to think and so one of the things that my husband really helps me do is say okay like take a breath is this something that's urgent are you creating that urgency and if the answer for me is I'm creating that urgency then I like take a step back and I process like whatever is happening and causing me to feel like that. And I think that for a lot of people because I also do the feeling wheel um is understanding that if you can name that feeling and then go you can dig down if you have a feeling wheel and I'll put one in the show notes so people can look there's like seven or eight like core feelings and then they dig down into different gradients. And so if you can say I'm feeling sad I'm disappointed I'm blah blah blah and you can follow that all the way down then you can feel the core of that feeling which is really really important because then you can say okay I'm feeling this way okay that's not a red flag okay I'm feeling that way that is a red flag and if you know you have like in the DSM five it's if you have five of like the nine characteristics if you have so many red flags then you know having a conversation might be really worth it and even if someone knows all the red flags so like you were with your first um ex-husband um you knew all the red flags but you ended up in the a dynamic again and I think some of that and I think some of that is because like a lot of people confuse that like kindness and niceness because a nice person is a people pleaser right and they prioritize how other people feel about them not what's right or moral where a kind person is like okay this is the moral thing um I'm going to practice that morality and they do what's right even if that pisses off the narcissist. So I would love how like maybe you can talk about either in your own personal experience or in you know working with your clients why people still end up in these kind of dynamics um after you know saying that person is a psycho narcissist I'm not gonna do that again. And then you know it just happens sometimes totally happens.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

It does and the thing is a lot of people well in my instance I you know took the recommended you're not it's recommended by the leading experts to not date for a year not drink alcohol not have any you know nothing's black and white there are people that have found people and I do um but time does not heal certain wounds and it does not heal these wounds and I'm one of those people I took two years. I maybe went on like a date one day here one day there. Yeah yeah yeah here but I ended up back in that kind of relationship because I didn't do the work on me. And this person presented totally differently and that is something you know it irks me it's like it's one of those things like you can't like tell clients things you can't like shake them and be like yeah you have to take that time they're thinking that well this person feels safe and I can explain it in every way possible because you want to learn genuine safety from you. A new relationship is a different kind of safety you want to get that safety from you know a friend parent therapist coach something like that if you're finding that safety from this person already from a very new relationship that is a major red flag to me because oh they feel like home they feel like I'm but they're nothing like my ex.

SPEAKER_04 34:02

Well no because your ex was nothing like that at first yeah yeah yeah but some people it's just they don't see it and I I I hate it for them but I know I know yeah but and I think that's a role you know they didn't make up like the time like that you have to like really kind of take because it that time is not just you know you're not gonna date that time is really like assessing like what you've been through assessing okay well why did I like that and I know for me when my husband and I met I knew what I didn't want in a partner and that I think is even more in part important than knowing what you do want in a partner. Yeah because then if a red flag comes up which none of none of those things for me happened when I met my husband like it was like it wasn't that I knew that it was home it's that there was a safety that was there for me that I hadn't ever felt before because everything was so like fucked up in all my relationships and it was crazy. You know and I think for me and you know and I don't know if you see this with your clients but is there anything about like childhood experiences and you alluded to yours I've alluded to mine here and in several other episodes are kind of that early conditioning that plays into repeating these patterns um in your adult life.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Oh absolutely and there's psychologists out there that will say on an unconscious level or subconscious level you seek out your hardest primary caregiver relationship in order to try to you're not doing this consciously like that's what a lot of people think if you don't think like that you're not thinking like that but your body is your brain is trying to heal things that you can't heal food these repeating and it's also a way of like reaffirming negative core beliefs on another level that something else completely different. But it's familiar even if they show up differently your system picks up on things long before your cognitive brain does like that that little shift in their attitude that little bit of oh they didn't call me back or they didn't or they got a little bit of an it's it's those little shifts your system feels and says this is familiar I know how to navigate this so I like this but where someone is genuinely safe that might actually feel kind of boring that might actually feel like well this isn't safe because they're not they're not doing what I what feels normal to my system being consistent I love consistency.

SPEAKER_04 36:57

What can you tell me um in you know women that you work with what are some like of the core wounds that you most often see in women who had narcissistic mothers if if you can tell or if they've shared with you that their mother is that way. And I work with men too um so I would love to hear the difference in the two because I think that is a really important thing.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

There's some I feel like not everyone has a narcissistic parent but there's some that um literally didn't connect the dots until they were talking with me and I'm thinking I mean it's just it's very interesting how that works.

SPEAKER_04 37:39

Yeah yeah because they're like they knew their mom was always like that but they thought that that's just how she is but it wasn't until they were telling their girlfriends like I think I'm finally connecting the dots and they were like how did you not see it with who she was and it's just a lot of the core wounds I feel like is you know they're abandoning there it's an abandonment um not being chosen not being prioritized you know mom being there physically or expecting them to perform and they can say my mom loved me she took care of me she fed me she dressed me yeah but what did she do for you emotionally was she there for you emotionally or did you have to be a certain way in order to get her attention in order to get her love and how is that going now and it's so interesting because I often say so my poor dad married my mom who was a crazy narcissist they got a divorce and then he my um stepmom my ex-stepmom is a crazy narcissist like the stories I could tell a crazy narcissist they got a divorce after about 25 years so a little longer than my parents were but still you know it that's the way it it ended and um he's got a new girlfriend I don't know anything about her he lived up north away from me so she could be a narcissist the jury's still out everyone has to listen to the second and third seasons so they of the podcast so they can find out if she is but this like core wound of the abandonment is really interesting because I talk about how um when my dad was I think about one or two when my grandparents got a divorce and he had two older brothers and my grandpa got full custody of them and which is very odd back in the 50s. Yeah like that I so I don't know my and I I don't want to speak ill of the dead but and I loved my grandmother so my dad's mom I don't think she was the best mom but she was an awesome grandma like I loved her to death she was fantastic and her second family the family that you know with her second husband was great. I think that her husband they balanced each other out it just wasn't a good mix with my grandpa but that abandonment for my dad was what he was always searching for. Like I don't know how my dad ended up my dad was in Vietnam met my mom in the Philippines he didn't speak a lick of Tagalog and my mom did not speak a lick of English they got married I don't know how like got married and then my dad um came back to the US and my mom then um was able to immigrant immigrate I think a couple like a year later and my mom didn't speak any English I don't know how they communicated with each other my mom had her own hustle back then it was very clear that they were trying to leave like a very large population was trying to leave the Philippines and come here to the US that was her hustle like I thank God she had the hustle because I'm here um but I like I I don't know how they even figured out that yeah they should have been married like I mean that's just so crazy and and goes back to the whole Disney princess thing in my mind because my dad had this idea my dad's a romanticist he has this idea of the way things should be there's this show called shrinking I don't know if you've seen it it's on Apple TV it's really really great it's about therapists and what therapist lives look like after it's not it's uh not reality TV but it's like it's regular television like it's got Harrison Ford in it and a couple other people and Harrison Ford the therapist but one of the therapists romanticizes everything like he's got this whole thing where he romanticizes anything that happens he practiced his speech to his daughter going away to college like and there's this whole thing and but that's not real life that's not how real life is right like you can't get thrown a curveball in your whole conversation and then be like no that's not the way I practiced it. Yeah and so I think you know for my dad the curveball is he married two narcissists unfortunately poor guy um what do you you know what does and I I think that my dad is starting to work on this but what does a really healthy boundary look like when you're just starting out like this is my boundary don't cross it because a lot of narcissists like to jump over that right so what does a healthy boundary look like so that it's easy for you to keep it and even if they cross it you still are like nope that's a boundary uh well when it comes to boundaries it's important to remember that boundaries are not about controlling other people they're about protecting yourself and you want to start small because you're gonna get pushback boundaries just don't work with certain with narcissistic people um you're gonna get major pushback like just the boundary that I gave over a year ago with our grandparent and said I'm not gonna put my child on a plane because and I said it as nicely my that people pleasing part of me was still like let me say this as nicely as I can right didn't talk to me or my kids for over a year.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

So um and I was like well my son's ASD he was what six at the time five I'm on a plane by themselves if I get there they all of a sudden don't want to go am I just supposed to force them in their generation yeah you can make them go they don't yeah yeah yeah yes so I was like it's just not gonna and I said as nice as be so Thanksgiving came Christmas came and my kids are like what's what's up with our grandparents they didn't say it like that they said it in a way but I won't say the grandparents' names but um yeah yeah yeah it really that was a real Opening moment. Um, and that was a boundary for me. And yeah, the way I like to look at it is your body is gonna tell you if you start to feel angry or you start to feel like just uncomfortable, that is your body saying, something needs to be looked at right here. This is a place that I need self-protection, and not everything, it's not about you know, you're gonna get your way. Boundaries are not black and white. Boundaries sometimes they need a little bit of well, you know, they can change. But uh narcissist people, yeah, boundaries just take them off. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:33

You know, it's so it's so interesting because um because of the narcissistic mom, like my boundaries are like really like I'm really black or white. And then when somebody crosses the boundary, even though most boundaries you could like have a conversation about, um I'm like, nope, that's my boundary, not changing. Like, I'm not changing my mind, that's my boundary. And it it takes a lot to get me to change my mind. And uh my poor daughter, she's the one who has to, you know, for most of it, where I'm like, nope, that's a boundary, nope, that's a boundary. But I you said something really I think that's important is that boundaries can change, but don't change them because you are trying to people please, yeah, right. Um, change them because of you, because you want to change them. I think that is like a super important thing. How do you uh uh speaking of people pleasing, how do you get people to move or your clients to move out of that kind of people pleasing space to a self-respect space instead?

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Um, well, it's a it's a process. Um, nothing happens quickly, but just asking, you know, I like to ask the question a lot is who am I constantly saying yes to? And does who am I saying no to more often? Like with people pleasing, we're often saying yes to all these people, but there's this voice in us that we're saying no to. That that is a that is a red flag that nah something's not right. We want to be saying yes to us, and people that respect us, they'll be saying yes to. And again, it's not about controlling them, but it's about if someone respects you, they're gonna respect that, you know, I'm not comfortable with this. I'm you know, we can figure out something on a later date, and they're gonna be like, I I understand that you're not comfortable. I mean, it sucks, but you're not comfortable, so I get it. Whereas that is, you know, doesn't respect that is gonna be like, Yeah, I don't like this boundary, or they're just gonna give you the silent treatment for a year.

SPEAKER_04 46:38

The silent treatment drives me nuts. I totally, and it's so interesting what that does to people.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

Yes, and what it does to people that care. I don't want to say no, like that have some emotional connection because the silent treatment, you know, years ago with these people would have devastated me. But seeing that who they are, I'm like, Yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 47:02

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, you know, I joke because um I saw this somewhere and then I decided to do it. My mom's name saved in my phone because she's blocked, so I don't get any of the phone calls or any of that are the messages they all go into like a deleted folder. But when I see them, they go in um under the DSM code for narcissistic personality disorder. That just makes me so it like cracks me up like so much whenever I see it. Um, and and one of the things that I find with people who have been through this kind of abuse is they have a really dark sense of humor. It's it's really different, and like I'm I'm the worst in regards to that. Like it's but it's to me, it's really funny. Like, I think it's hilarious that her name is saved in that only a person who's been through the kind of abuse, right, can understand that. And I think, you know, as we go back, I just want to make that point is when you're dealing with a coach that is focused on this or a therapist who's gone through the Dr. Romani like um narcissistic abuse certification, it is so important to be with someone where you can say, Oh, my mom did this, or oh, my partner did this, and not have someone look at you like you're nuts, because that adds to that abuse. And I know that therapists or coaches don't plan on abusing their people, you know, the people that they're trying to help. And sometimes, like when I have said this is something that my mom had had did, um, people are like, that's that's crazy. What are you talking about? Like, I I often talk about the story where you know, my hair probably was as long as it is now, and I was going to school, and she was my only transportation to school. And I was like, Okay, mom, um, I'm gonna go wait in the car. I'm just gonna take the keys, just so you know. And my grandma was living with us at the time, her mom. And so she didn't have to lock the door because my grandma could have done it. And I remember walking past her, my mom's 4'11, and I'm 5'1, so I'm much bigger than my mom, but she grabbed the back of my hair and just pulled me straight down.

SPEAKER_03 49:25

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 49:26

And I was like, but hair is a really common thing for narcissistic people to like target, especially daughters and their mothers. Um, what I have seen more times than not is where a daughter has long hair and the mom uses it as a weapon, like my mom did, or she just cuts the kid's hair. And that to me is crazy because, like, you know, maybe the child didn't want her hair cut and she still does it. And that's like a it's a crazy like form of control that when you tell someone, hey, my mom cut my hair, like the group that I um admin, like that's a common thing. When like when we share things that happen, no one says, Oh, that's crazy. Everyone says, Oh, your mom was a freaking psycho. That happened to me, or this happened to me. Um you know, oh, it's okay. It made me the person I am today, you know. I I think that uh for me, I am sad that my mom shows that way. I don't know what kind of trauma that she experienced, and quite frankly, I don't fucking care because that doesn't give you a cart blanch card to just be crazy. And I think that is something that's really important for people who have experienced this narcissistic abuse. One of the things that I I have seen, and I don't know if you have, is they often say, Well, am I a narcissist? Because I'm displaying something similar to it. And the first thing I always say to them is, No, you're not a narcissist because you wouldn't be asking if you were one. That's number one, and you're sorry, like making the mistake or doing that behavior, like if you are sorry for it and you are working to change it, and it's not something that's continual, I think that you are you're trying to heal. And and and I I I think for a lot of people, and I don't in my experience, I don't know if you've experienced this, is the healing doesn't ever stop. No, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

So if anyone's out there saying you can be healed in 21 days, that's bullshit. Yeah, they're a narcissist, they're lying to you.

SPEAKER_04 51:58

It's bullshit, they just want the money. Yeah, um, I you know, and that's not to say that you know, you don't graduate from therapy or graduate from coaching. What I am saying when I say that is like I always have the goal of working myself out of a job when it comes to coaching. It's that if a moment hits for someone, they see it and then they use the tools that they've learned to get through it. And maybe you might need a check-in. That's okay. If you need a check-in, it's totally okay. Check in. If you need like five check-ins and then you're good again, that's totally okay. Uh healing is not linear, you know, it's not, I was abused, okay, now I'm not. It's like all over the place. And you know, certain things might happen in your life and it might trigger you to feel some type of way, and you go back to it. There might, you know, what I find for myself, and I don't know if you find if you found this, or it and I find this in a lot of my clients, is when I feel that there's success, like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop, and then I start doing things like the other shoe has dropped, but it hasn't. And then I'm like sabotaging what's going on. And I have to like take a step back and say, okay, what's going on? What am I feeling? Okay, the I'm safe. That's what I tell a lot of my clients. I said, the first thing you need to say if the person is not right next to you is that you're safe. And if you're not safe, then that's a whole nother story because they're right next to you.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

Yeah. Um, that's why I love the internal family system because you really look at different behavior. It gave me a whole different kind of compassion for myself. Like, why do I have to have the dishes out of the sink every night before I go to bed? Like it really allowed me just to get curious about things. Like, why is this? Why do I want to people please? Why is it but it allows you to get curious with compassion and not judge yourself? Like, this part is trying its best to keep me safe from feeling what? What does it think it's gonna keep me safe from feeling?

SPEAKER_04 54:22

Right. Yeah, well, and I think that that's why uh, you know, I often say that therapy and coaching go hand in hand because that internal family system is like it's visited. There, you know, there is a serious um, there is scientific studies that talk about the way that you were treated as a child, the the inner relationships that you had with your siblings or your parents will directly affect how and what how you choose um your partner. I when I was in school working on my undergrad, one of the things we had to do was go out to elementary school class and ask them, get permission, of course, to talk to the kids, but then ask them like what kind of partner they wanted. And you know, more often than not, the person that they like internalize or visualize had very common features to their caretakers, right? So, oh, I want their you know, their hair to look curly, like your your boys might say, I well, I would want my partner to have curly hair, you know, and and it's not even something that you would so you should ask them. I was about to say I do have to go get them.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

So my youngest, he would he'd be like, I don't know what shine up, but that's that, you know. Yeah, yeah. But he has he's I just love him to death. I love them bubbles. He is his own little, he has his own little world going on. I love it. Because my oldest, it's so funny. My oldest, he just turned 11.

SPEAKER_04 56:04

Oh, fun. Those are fun ages. You know, one of the things that I will tell people, I hope they listen to this, and if they have kids, is if you can like sit down and play Minecraft with them, they're like they will tell you the everything through what they're building and what they're doing. It's which I think is really, really cool. So I know that you have to pick up your littles. So I have one last question for you. Um, what would you love for a person who is experiencing this narcissistic abuse to know now while they're you know getting out of it, um, or while they're healing? What would you want them to know about this abuse or about themselves? About themselves is it's not their fault.

SPEAKER_01 56:58

They are lovable, they are born deserving of love, and somewhere along the way, someone changed that belief, and it's they deserve love just as they are now. They don't have to heal us to a certain point, they don't have to be a certain person just for existing. They deserve love.

SPEAKER_04 57:17

I love that. That's a best note to end on. Thank you so much for sitting with me. I love this. Um, and I'm gonna definitely, we have so much to talk about. This is an endless topic, so I'll have you back on.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

There were things you said, I'm like, Oh, I want to go back. I won't talk about that. I want to talk about my ADD.

SPEAKER_04 57:35

We will, we will, yeah, don't worry. Um, and we'll we'll have you back on. And when you come back on, I'm going to ask you about what your son said about who he wants in his partner. So I can't wait.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

I will ask him tonight. He'll probably be like, I don't want a girlfriend, but he kind of has a girlfriend, but he doesn't, even though they don't even talk to each other. I don't understand. But I had lunch for his birthday. I did have lunch with him. She ate with us, she's lovely. And I asked her her age, and I told my son, he's like, I didn't know that was her age. I'm like, what are you all talking about? Do you even know what do you know her name? It's just it's just funny. It is just it's funny. I love it.

SPEAKER_04 58:16

Well, we're gonna get that. We call it cheese may. We're gonna get the cheese may on uh the gossip on your son, the cheese may, in Spanish, and then make sure that she's not toxica, that she's not toxic. She's lovely.

SPEAKER_01 58:30

Oh god, that was so sweet. Oh, I can't wait. Oh, I would have, I mean, she's just lovely, and they both have braces, it was just cute. Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait to hear about it. Which I love. Yeah, keep your distance, keep your distance.

SPEAKER_04 58:45

That's what I have to say about girls and my son. So keep your distance. Well, thank you again, and I appreciate it. And we'll thank you so much, Sammy, for sharing your story, your wisdom, and your heart with us. Conversations like this remind us that healing is not about becoming someone new, it's about returning to who you were before the pain convinced you otherwise. Healing from a narcissistic mother is real, possible, and you never have to do it with shame. I'm your host, Nelani Pearl Hernandez, and until next time, take gentle care of yourself.

SPEAKER_00 59:18

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