The False Prophet: How Cult Leaders and Narcissists Use the Same Psychological Abuse Tactics

What happens when a narcissist gains absolute power?

In this powerful episode, I sit down with Dr. Christine Marie, featured in Netflix's Trust Me: The False Prophet, to discuss her undercover work helping expose Samuel Bateman and rescue women and children from coercive control.

While this story centers on a cult, the psychological tactics will sound incredibly familiar to anyone raised by a narcissistic parent or trapped in an emotionally abusive relationship.

We discuss:

• Why cult leaders and narcissists use the same manipulation tactics

• The psychology behind coercive control and brainwashing

• Why intelligent people can become victims

• The role of obedience, fear, shame, and isolation

• How confirmation bias and groupthink keep people trapped

• Why survivors often blame themselves

• What it really takes to "wake up" from psychological abuse

• How trust in yourself is rebuilt after manipulation

• The importance of community during healing

• Why leaving isn't about becoming stronger, it's about finally trusting yourself

If you've ever questioned your own reality because of narcissistic abuse, this episode will remind you that manipulation follows psychological principles, and your healing can too.

If this episode helped you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who needs to hear that they are not alone.

Trust Me | False Prophet - https://www.netflix.com/title/81758532

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

You're listening to the Beyond Mommy Daris podcast, where we talk about growing up with narcissistic moms, how it shaped your nervous system, your relationships, and your sense of self, and how to heal without shame.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

I'm your host, Melani Pearl Hernandez. This episode is sponsored by the Happy Canabouts, body products designed to help you on your healing journey by supporting your nervous system with every application.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Today's conversation is one I've been looking forward to for a long time. After watching Netflix, Trust Me, the False Prophet, I couldn't stop thinking about the striking similarities between cult leaders and narcissistic parents. The manipulation, the coercive control, the gaslighting, the isolation, the way victims slowly lose trust in themselves. Today I'm joined by Dr. Christine Marie, whose courage helped expose one of the most dangerous modern cult leaders, Samuel Bateman. Working alongside law enforcement, she risked her own safety to help rescue women and children trapped in psychological and spiritual abuse. Dr. Christine, I'm so happy that I get to speak to you, not just because I love Pink so much and you make me so happy every time I see you, but because of your enormous amounts of strength and your heroinism in this uh huge, huge story that we're going to talk about. So thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_04 1:25

My pleasure. I'm really happy to be on your podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Um you know, one of the things that we um so we talk about narcissism and narcissism and mothers. And one of the things that I found through my research is that cult leaders um very much share some of the same um attitudes, some of the same personality that um narcissistic mothers do. And we've had other people on, like um Mark Vicente when he was talking about Nexium. Um, at that same time or around then, I was watching uh Trust Me False Prophets on Netflix and was blown away by your palm, your every by everything. So for those who don't know, um, and you alluded to it a little bit before Sam Bateman and the false prophet, um, you had your own story in surviving um a cult and changing the way you kind of recognize what was happening in Short Creek. So can you talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_04 2:33

Yeah, so I was a divorced single mother, and I wanted to be the very best Mormon I could be. And I got interested in polygamy because that was one of the higher laws. As you know, the mainstream Mormon church broke off. I mean, the fundamentalists broke off on the mainstream Mormon Church over polygamy. So I was open to it, and I met somebody, I wasn't looking for it, I was just open to it. So I met somebody when I was searching for Mr. Wright, who happened to have been a polygamist. Um, and is that good English? What happened to happen in a minute? Anyway, so um, and I I got lured into his story, and I believed it was true. He had written some documents which I believed were true, and I believed he was a new prophet, and next thing you know, I'm obeying the prophet at the peril of my life.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Wow. What um what was there a moment or was there a moment that while you were recording this documentary? Because a lot of it, uh my assumption is because it happens to me as I'm doing these podcasts, like a lot of the trauma kind of rebuilds up for me. And so when did this stop really being a documentary in the documentary that we saw to becoming a rescue mission for all those wonderful women?

SPEAKER_04 4:10

Well, it didn't start as a documentary, it started as um a ruse to get evidence. We were working on a different documentary, okay, right, about the FLDS, and Sam saw pieces of it because Toby showed him, and then Sam wanted to be in that one. So the more Sam filmed, the more he wanted to film because it you know talked about narcissism.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Right, it fed into his narcissism.

SPEAKER_04 4:51

Right. And in fact, I was uh very much against a documentary on Sam for a long time, and I even have it, I just noticed it in the past couple of weeks that I even had have it in some of my um uh legal documents that I mean things that I shared with law enforcement because media was camping outside their house, and my fear was that if the story became big before we had the investigation button down, that he would move away with everybody, and he was gathering passports and there was a budget for a plane, he's a pilot. Oh my goodness, and they he kept going to Mexico for some reason. So we were afraid that if this became big before he was arrested, that that we might lose it. So it was not a documentary and then a rescue mission. It was first and foremost a rescue mission. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

That that's amazing. Uh you know, it looking back, and for those of you who haven't watched it, you have to watch it, listen to the podcast, and then watch it again, because that's what I'm gonna do to kind of look back at what was going on. And was there ever a point where you thought, oh my goodness, we're gonna need to walk away? This is just too dangerous for me and my husband.

SPEAKER_04 6:21

Um it was definitely dangerous. The option of walking away was not something that we seriously entertained, but we had times where we couldn't keep going for a while. I had to go in therapy. I also used my, you know, the FBI special agent as a cry on her shoulder, and I needed to get a lot of support because I just felt that complexity of knowing that they were victims when they didn't know it, knowing that they were going to suffer more when they learned that I'm the one that shed a light on their prophet's crimes to authorities, and he was taken away. The father of their children was taken away because of me. You know, so I just knew the betrayal and the harm that they would feel was caused by me and didn't know if any of them would ever stop hating me.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

You know, and I know that this is not a question that's on our list of things, but I I because I follow the girls, I know that you have a close relationship with uh many of them, and they're flourishing. And in fact, it's one of their birthdays today, and it's it's just such a lovely thing to see the growth. And I I I think that for a lot of people, a lot of women, a lot of uh men that have been children of narcissistic parents, that the that thought process of them not understanding that they're in an abusive relationship and people trying to slowly dissect them out of it is probably one of the biggest fears that the opposite parent has. I know for my dad, he never really talked about my mom being like that. And so I think that that that feeling that you just said like is a very like it hits me really deeply because I I I can see that. You know, I always am amazed by men like Sam Bateman or other cult leaders that believe that they are the prophet, um, or that they proclaim that. So do you think that he really believed the prophet that he was a prophet? Or did no okay, so he knew what he was doing.

SPEAKER_04 8:56

That is my belief because one of his one of his themes was that Warren Jeffs was not in prison, that it was a mannequin there, that he actually was this immortal person now, like he'd gone through uh this process that Warren's believing called um translation, and that he was some kind of immortal person who could speak to him. So he knew that wasn't true. He knew Warren Jess wasn't appearing talking to him. He knew that if Warren Jess had actually died, that it would be world news. Every little thing is world news in this town, and if Warren Jess had died, he wouldn't everybody would know, and there would be a big funeral and he'd be in the cemetery. But no, I don't believe that he knew, I mean that he believed that he was a prophet, and he just I believe he was a natural predator from his childhood, he was aggressive as a child, and I believe that he just figured out how he could gain control over the people who believed in him.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

You know, it was interesting while I was watching the documentary when it first came out, there was this look that he had. There's like this specific look that people who have been in narcissistic relationships or have been through this kind of cult leader um like brainwashing that he just had he had that look. Or if one of the girls he believed was misbehaving, there was this look that like just sent chills down my spine because it was the same look that I would get if I was acting like a kid and I was doing something my mom didn't like. And it was interesting. I didn't expect that watching something like that. I didn't expect it.

SPEAKER_04 10:54

Yeah, we caught it. So he he made me nervous when there was this one time when we were in the greenhouse, which is where Sam was with all of his wives, a two-bedroom house with you know like 20 wives and all these children. And he said something, and one of the one of his wives corrected it and said, That's not what you said before, before you said something or other. And I thought, oh no, oh no, she's gonna get reamed. And I don't know what happened, but I did learn that when we would leave, he would his word was rebuke, which means humiliate, insult, destroy. He would be, you know, be picking them apart because he wanted to put on this perfect show, and so they would go through you know difficult times if they weren't perfect when they were with us.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Gosh, that and you know, every time I do an interview, whether male, female, or with a person who survived a cult, that those things ring true when you're dealing with a narcissistic mother. And I think for a lot of people who have narcissistic parents or a narcissistic romantic relationship, are you know they're in a cult to know that their community, the people they can lean on, is vastly larger than that person makes it. There's uh, you know, uh so many people out there, and you know, when I watched him, and if someone is watching him and watching him speak, there are subtle behaviors that would tell them to pay attention to him. What what did you see the in those behaviors? Like what did he do specifically?

SPEAKER_04 12:50

Well, for one thing, he would cut people off while they were talking and tell them what they're supposed to say, right? You know, I mean we caught a little bit of that that made it on the documentary. Now, let me remind you, Toga and I filmed, but we were filming primarily for the for law enforcement, hoping to catch evidence, and we didn't filter what we filmed, we just gave it all. But um, in that process, he I mean, we would sometimes catch him slipping up and we would catch that look. So we didn't know exactly what was gonna end up in the final documentary because we just entrusted the footage to a uh production company and they put it all together and we didn't even see it until two weeks before it came out. So when I say it made it into something made it into the documentary, it's because we're not the ones that built the story out of the footage. So, but yeah, a couple things did show up in there in where he's you know um telling people, you know, what to say. But another thing he would do is send people over to our house, or they would come on their own because they knew it would please him, have them talk about how much they loved him on camera. You know, Sam was not allowed, Sam did not allow the girls to be vain, they couldn't primp in the mirror for very long, like or even look at themselves in the mirror, they wouldn't let the children see pictures of themselves on the phone because they would become vain. But when it came to him, you know, he was having his hair dyed, and people, you know, before the before we filmed him one time, he was getting all primed up and you know, but this white jacket that they told us was fifteen thousand dollars. And I'm thinking, yeah, you know, and he's eating dinner like at his birthday or anniversary things, he would be sitting there like a king eating while everybody else is working or singing or serving him, at least for a while. And I mean, the fact that the whole world revolved around him, he was centered. So there was something going on that let those wives know you center Sam or you're in trouble.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

You know, I I laugh because I'm gonna try to say this as nicely as as possible, but Sam is not a good looking guy. Like he's he's just he's not, and you know, I um I think my husband is incredibly handsome. So I am always shocked when someone like Sam can convince someone, and not just one person, he convinced an entire community that he was, you know, the bee's knees, that he was like the he's the one. And I like I don't even know how you would begin to accomplish something like that. Like what sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 16:16

I I believe it was because he took over the mantle of the prophet, and it was really his position that they fell for, not then once they did, they wanted to see him that way, and you know, they had confirmation bias, they would see everything that he did and as if it was an appropriate thing for a prophet to do, and they were prophets' wives, or they were you know men that stood up for the prophet. So I don't think it was his personality, I do think it was his deceptiveness, and he was confident too. That confidence becomes a sneeze, hang on.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

No worries.

SPEAKER_04 17:05

Oh, I think I'm not gonna sneeze. Um sorry, no, it's okay, but but his confidence went a long way because as honest people, we don't expect another human being to do something as bold as pretend you are a prophet speaking to God himself. So when we have believed that for generations and we finally meet someone, it I mean, many FLDS did say that you know that's a crock of shit. I mean, it didn't shit, but you know, yeah, they they were like would have nothing to do with it, but for the people who who opened their minds to the possibility and ended up believing in him, they would then see everything from that lens because they were hungry for certainty. Their prophet wasn't communicating with them anymore, and here you know, Sam represented this is a way you can get communications with the current prophet, and so they were just so hungry for that.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

That makes sense. You know, why why do you think that people didn't see the red flags at the same time? Why do you think it took like dribs and drabs for them? So because I saw the I saw you could see when the girls started to kind of come out of it, come out of that haze is what we call it, that narcissistic haze. But some of them didn't come out right away. And I attributed some of it to them being young, but why do you think that everyone didn't see the red flags at the same time?

SPEAKER_04 18:55

Well, I think it's because of groupthink. They were in a fishbowl where everybody was monitoring everybody else, and then you have some very smart and college-educated women in that group that were mothers saying their testimonies, you know, um, declaring their beliefs and interpreting coincidences and things that they see happen in their lives, like nature, it it's they're giving meaning to random events and using it as data that he's really the real thing. So people are trusting in uh the words of others, it's called social proof. When you see everybody else doing something, you think it's okay? And I think the fact that they were all together and all confirming the same um story, it made it hard to say, no, they're all wrong.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

You know, was there one lie that seemed to kind of unlock that complete obedience from his followers? Like, what was the one thing that if you just weren't sure he came with the lie and then that was it?

SPEAKER_04 20:10

Remember when he was in front of us, he put on a you know, he put on a show.

SPEAKER_05 20:17

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:18

But I do know that he required everybody to obey, be obedient. And he also had them doing affirmations, writing affirmations like it was um punishment in high school. You know, he would read over and over pages and pages and pages. Like I love Samuel Rappeli Bateman. I love Samuel. He is my I will obey, I will obey father. Call him father, I will obey father, I will obey father. You would have to write that morning and night, pages and pages of the same sentence over and over and over.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

That's that is maddening. I mean, you know, when I was back way back when, since I'm turning 50 next year, way back when I was in grade school, we would get lines when we would do something, we would get in trouble or something was going on, and we would say, we can't be led to class or whatever it was. And you know, we sure as heck weren't late then. We you know, we listened and we went. So of course, of course, mean especially for the girls who were younger, that would absolutely convince them to obey or whatever things that yeah, he was asking. Go ahead, sorry.

SPEAKER_04 21:37

Well, he would humiliate them if they didn't. And they were all walking on eggshells because they were afraid to get rebuked in front of the other girls, and it would be a very devastating experience for them. So he had them uh like a scared. pack of kittens. And whatever he said they want they wanted to do it, they he pressured them to be able to predict what he wanted. So he didn't even have to tell them. It was incredibly controlling.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Gosh, you know, and and you mentioned that you're a mother and I'm a mother and I can't imagine who could convince me as a parent to to surrender any of my daughters, even on the days that they have the worst attitudes. I wouldn't do it, right? And so how do you think he convinced all of those mothers and fathers to surrender his those daughters to him like in Mormon culture, including mainstream church, you start from childhood singing songs like follow the prophet hearing talks in Sunday school and and the all the general conference meetings about the importance of following the prophet and the FLDS were no different.

SPEAKER_04 23:12

And there is a belief that if you do not follow the prophet you will be destroyed. So the key was the amount of faith that they had in him being a prophet. I I had that same experience. I was a mother I was educated and a little and I believed if I did not do what my prophet wanted me to do that I would suffer eternal consequences. And he separated me from my children for a while. I didn't give them away or give them up but he wanted me to and you know so something in me found a workaround on how I could not how I could how I could get away with not doing that. But I think that because they were the women were you know raised in a patriarchal society that they what they thought was not as important as obeying their husband I know that Julia did not want any of her girls to go to Sam. And she expressed that but then she suffered the consequences as a result of it and then he started marrying her daughters without her even knowing. So it's more nuanced than it looks it's not like all of a sudden he said give me your children and they said yes.

SPEAKER_05 24:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

You know there were battles and struggles and well and I think that because um you know FDLS is so um a lot of people don't know much about it. Like what we know about Mormonism often is that people they're the people who come to the door and they come and do you know the prayers with you in your living room. And as they they don't really know much more to it. And it sounds like especially in this sec, in this cult in this with Sam Bateman and previous there was really that want to control in order to benefit from that control. And that is really something that is common for um narcissistic abuse survivors and daughters of narcissistic mothers because we're not daughters we're not you know children. We are a pawn in whatever they need next right and you know as I watch the women and all with you you and your strength to get through this and all the women who were in the documentary I couldn't help but really see a lot of similar similarities did you notice any common like psychological patterns among the women who eventually found that strength for them to leave well I found you know uh commitment taking a quick break from our podcast to let you know about today's sponsors. Feeling overwhelmed by anxiety does it have you overthinking second guessing yourself are constantly on edge meet iCare a 14-day experience designed to help you understand your anxiety patterns and practice simple evidence-based tools that fit into real life each day includes a quick exercise practical insights and AI guided reflection. Start your free three-day trial at iCare.app to discover a different way to work with anxiety helping you build greater calm and confidence day by day. If Perimenopause has your muscles aching your stress levels climbing or your nervous system feeling like it's working overtime check out the Happy Cannabis. Their THC-free plant-powered CBD body oils sugar scrubs and goat milk soaps are designed to support everyday wellness and help you unwind naturally use code BMD20 to save 20% on your order and give your body a little extra love.

SPEAKER_04 27:33

And now back to our episode let's think about gnomes gnomes was very passionate and committed to Sam while she believed in Sam. Yes and we recognized that and one of the people who filmed uh besides Toga was um a young woman she said you know if gnomes would just wake up she could put all that energy and that passion into something that would really help her life so we could see it yeah and I think it's the same with a lot of the other young women as well they to the to the degree that they were committed there they can use that energy and focus and passion on something that will help their lives now.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Yeah that was what I'm sorry go ahead but as far as psychological patterns I don't um the only thing is that that they all were in a situation of coercion and uh they were all compelled to comply that's just a survival brain mm-hmm you know it's interesting that you say that about gnomes because when I was watching it at first I thought she would be the last to leave right I totally thought that because of her you know her um commitment to him and it was just it was very interesting just watching her it made me uncomfortable because of of of the things she was doing but it was very interesting and then when I as I've seen her because she's someone I follow on Instagram and I'll put this in the show notes so people can see the beautiful the growth that has happened um she is kicking ass excuse my language she's like amazing I know I know she's doing so great yeah and I love the relationship that a lot of the survivors have with you because I think that for them you know you going through something similar they look at you as a you know a very uh like a a motherly figure who has helped lead them to this this life of still being you know believing in what you believe in and still like being faithful and you know believing in religion but also being able to be yourself and that's huge.

SPEAKER_04 30:06

I hope so there let me point out that there are plenty who still are very angry with me. You know um it you would think that when they leave Sam that they would leave their anger and be like I'm free oh thank you Christine for going to the FBI and sticking this out but they have you know these thought patterns that were ingrained in them while they were with Sam. So most of the girls are I have a good relationship with but there are a couple that you know I I don't either you know they're in other states and I don't talk to them or that they're influenced by their sisters who are still part of the blue house where the followers live or hang out.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

Are they um and and I know this question wasn't on there I know that there were males that were under Sam are those males still is that still all part of is it still going or is it has it kind of disbanded because I I heard you refer to the the blue house well the men that were shown under him in a chart in the documentary they're in prison they're in prison.

SPEAKER_04 31:21

Oh good okay good one of them one of them woke up and that was Moroni and he took accountability and went to the FBI and and people sometimes questioned whether he was sincere or not maybe he just did it because he knew he was caught but he I'm a witness that he would not take an attorney to that FBI meeting like they were the FBI was saying bring an attorney wow and he was saying I don't want an attorney I don't even want a deal I just want to start cleaning up you know the damage that caused so he so I do believe that he was sincere um in his trying to be accountable for what he did.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

The other ones still believe in Sam but there are other men still who did not commit those crimes who to this day believe in Sam you know it it's uh I I wanna just a little bit uh Roni was that his name who went to the FBI um moroni moroni right Moroni thank you he is an example of it's never too late to do the right thing true um because you know I think for a lot of people who are stuck in you know whatever some kind of relationship are there maybe they are a cult leader and they listen to this whatever it is it's never too late to do the right thing because you can change the direction of where things are going and I think that's a really really important thing um you know one of the things that we often talk about um is that people don't leave these kind of relationships um um not because they are becoming stronger they leave because they finally trust themselves and so was there a common like turning point when you saw that these women began trusting their own tuition trusting their tummies as we say versus what they were hearing well that would be something known by the foster families because when when the search warrant was executed and there was this big raid then the young women I mean the the children were taken by DCFS and put in a group home in the group home nobody woke up because all the whole group was still together and you had the more passionate aggressive older girls overseeing the activities of the younger girls and they had so much influence no one could wake up in that in that close close knit of a group it wasn't until they were all separated into foster family homes so it was getting time away from the group and the pressure and working with the parents of the foster I mean the foster parents it they're the ones that helped them deconstruct as individuals.

SPEAKER_04 34:51

Now so so yay for them. Now the um the the older a little bit older girls like gnomes and Moretta they woke up because they went to prison and they didn't have constant conversations from prison with the blue house with the people the blue house means the same so it took gnomes quite a while in prison before she would even speak to a therapist. So she hung on tight and then Moretta started seeing the light which is Julia's daughter that went to prison she started waking up from her fog pretty pretty early but not immediately but it was it was that separation so as long as those people are still living over there or hanging out over there or in constant communication then it's going to be harder for them to truly wake up.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

You know it's it's often what the way that you're saying it the way that I'm saying it the waking up from that haze is really what it is you know I know that when I'm like on Friday of last week I did three podcasts. So it was back to back to back and I was exhausted by the end of the day because we're talking about really we're not talking about you know light heavy stuff or cheese make gossip in Spanish. We're not talking about cheese we're like it's heavy and so by the end of the day these are really they're big things. So the haze is there. And so that lifting up that haze stops my automatic reactions stops me thinking that someone might be being critical of me when they're trying to help and I think that is really really important um knowing that you can come out of the haze and it sounds like um the people who helped each of them whether they were you know in prison um or they were in a foster home they're angels because it's a lot it's a lot. And then of course once they start deconstructing from Sam then the family's right there because when when they believe in Sam they didn't want to be close to their family they might not have even talked to many family members but the minute they started deconstructing they started reaching out and they had a lot of support from the families that's you know I I really I'm really glad that the people who are out have gotten out and my hope is that this will act as hopefully like a bridge for for other people who are still in this to get out I know yeah you know it's you were like a little you and your husband were like little like undercover detectives as I watched this and I was um astounded by how well you kept it all together and in in the face of like I mean the devil himself right and there were moments where you know I watched it I don't know if you did if when you forgot that you weren't law enforcement that you weren't just undercover and how much pressure did you feel knowing that all of these women or all of these people who were under this control were depending on you to get this information?

SPEAKER_04 38:38

I felt tremendous pressure. I felt every single day that it was those girls were at risk of being abused several times a day every single day and so I didn't want any grass to grow under my feet.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

I was in a hurry I was quite you know I was banging on the door making the calls trying to do what I could I called the FBI long before they officially got involved but they explained that they couldn't get involved until they had a referral from local for local law enforcement that showed that there was an interstate crime and that it would be within their jurisdiction you know I mean I was doing what I could yeah and I think for a lot of people that's what happens you know I I think back to when I I first understood what was going on in my house and going and trying to talk to people and people saying that doesn't seem like it really is happening and you know people not believing it and me just basically without screaming screaming at the top of my lungs saying can you please just look into it yeah um didn't did Sam ever suspect you two I don't think so well he's I mean there was a moment not a very good prophet anyway no no he's not but there was a moment when he brought baby over to see us and I said oh this baby's so cute she looks just like her daddy and he got offended at the word daddy because they say father and something about that spooked him this is early on very early on and so then they shunned us for like three months really that's so that's so odd I mean that's such a like it's a normal reaction like you just say that's so odd I know I know so then they came back and after they came back around then the trust was great he told his followers that it was just a test and and then we were back in the swing of things but when that when we were shunned we didn't know the extent of what was going on and it to me it makes sense that we were shunned because you know it might have been um it might have been there was one baby born that was conceived when a girl was underage maybe that was the baby and he really thought about that but for some reason he got spooked and was worried but after that then he trusted us so much like he wouldn't let any men around the women not even his own followers he wouldn't let them look at men if they went out I did a presentation for them one time on fashion gentile or outsider fashion you know and because they were gonna start dressing they call it dressing down when they went to court and such I was doing the presentation one of the things they asked was are there any hairstyles for long hair um what kind of hairstyles should we do so I went online to search long hairstyles and on my computer a picture of a man popped up and Sam was like get him off the screen no no no you know he's all panicking because they saw a man he was incredibly jealous but in spite of all this he said they could be around Toga because Toga has no lust Toga has no lust that's so interesting well he does for you but for no one else I'm like I mean we we laughed about that quite a bit my no lust husband oh my gosh that I mean he really believed his he really believed it like that man yuck gross like just I don't know how he pulled it but okay like I know he said I trust Tolga and Christine more than I trust myself um I think it was pertaining to the footage we were taking you know and yeah so he did trust us and I did not feel guilty about violating his trust no I don't think you should screw him I mean seriously I mean I actually enjoy it I actually enjoyed violating his trust good for you I'm glad you know and after everything you witnessed was there something that still like bothers you like when you think back to you know spending the time that you did with them and you're like oh that just you know it for me when I was watching it and I know I didn't get all the footage for me was just and I think this is why Gnome's story like so makes me happy Is just the that blind trust that she had for him. And that and she was so young. And that blind trust. And I was just like, oh my gosh. And that was hard for me to watch. Um, was there something that for you that was really hard that you yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:21

I was very bothered by the way he worked the older women. Like um, they had to do physical work, carry stuff into the the truck that they were using to go on their picnic and and get all the food and get the babies all set up. And I mean, sometimes other people would help, but seeing the older moms, they just they were just like treated like servants and having to babysit the babies when samples off the girls doing who knows what, you know, but they were just I felt like they were mistreated. I mean, of course the girls were mistreated. Uh I also was bothered when different girls he calls his wives girls, whether they're girls or not, but when different girls or young women or older women would be off in the corner sad or looking like they had just been crying. I was always uh uh tormented by it, like what happened that they're that they're in a crisis right now.

SPEAKER_02 45:38

That's the empathy that he doesn't have. Yeah, that's what that is because you know I um I was teasing before um when uh I met Esther, your assistant, who also was in the show, about how I just cried the entire time. And I said it's probably perimenopause, but it wasn't. It was just that empathy that I had as I was watching these women as I was thinking about what you possibly were going through, like the thought process. Um I just it it ripped me apart, and I'm like a glutton for punishment when it comes to this stuff because I study cults and true crime and whatnot. And I know that you've spent many years studying cults. Um, what do you think that people misunderstand most about brainwashing?

SPEAKER_04 46:32

That it's a serious, a series of psychological processes that are explainable and that anybody can be susceptible to it. We have all these invisible influences and cognitive biases that if we're not aware of them, and it's hard to be aware of all of them, but if we're completely oblivious to them, then we're not gonna realize when we're being manipulated.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Yeah, and that brings me to my, I think the next question of can intelligence protect against this and joining a cult or being brainwashed?

SPEAKER_04 47:11

No, I mean studies show that cult members tend to be higher in intelligence than the average bear, you know, and uh skepticism can help. Questioning can help. But oftentimes people are intelligent, passionate, creative idealists who are honest, looking for a good cause, and in a cult it doesn't look like a cult to the outside at first. Sometimes, you know, it can look like a movement to do something good. So people are joining a good movement where they now have all these new friends and feeling of belonging, and then that gradually or quickly changes.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

You know, and I find that with um I've been watching a couple of these uh yoga cults because um, you know, like I said, I'm a glutton for punishment, so I watch a lot of documentaries on cults, and you're right, it's like uh even what seems as if it's a good thing, right? Of course, the what is it, um, the Manson murders, like that cult, they didn't get involved in it because it was a good cult. But when you look at some of these other things, like a yoga cult or there's a new cult, I can't remember where it is, but um, his followers were about saving the universe or saving the environment, it doesn't have to start that way. And and I think that for a lot of people, and especially those who are religious, so like myself, um, and I came back to religion after leaving because I felt there was um I thought it was like control. Like, how do you control this person? And you is there a difference between I think we answered the question between faith and control, and where do the where do you think the lines get crossed for people?

SPEAKER_04 49:21

Well, in a religious group, you can have one family or one individual interpret it a certain way and live it a certain way, and the other family can be their way of living it and um being controlled by it is a cult. So this in this group, this this family can be in a cult, and then this family isn't in the same group. So it's really it's not just the red flags in a group to see whether it's a cult, it's also how it also has to be compared to your personal disposition and how easily subjugated you are and how willing you are to obey authority, like most people are, you know, so the line is crossed when it gets coercive. So if you can be in a religion that it can encourage you to do good things, that's great. You know, it can provide this second family for you, that's great too. That's positive, it's psychologically healthy, but when uh when it goes far into that influence continuum where there's a lot of undue influence and cult control, that's where the line is drawn.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

You know, um one of the things that has happened since this documentary is more recently there was a trial that um y'all shared, and I found it really odd that I found it odd, but not surprising, but also surprising that Sam acted as his own lawyer. I know it was like way to hand it in there, buddy. Like you know, there's no way. But did you ever worry that are we what has most surprised you about life since he's been arrested and now convicted and now in jail?

SPEAKER_04 51:44

I think the thing that surprised me the most is that more people haven't left, that they're still hanging on, in spite of seeing his flaws and his deceptions in full living color, they're still hanging on. That's a surprising thing.

SPEAKER_02 52:06

Yeah, you know, I I akin it to um if we're comparing like narcissistic parents to to Sam Bateman, I akin it to that daughter, that son who keeps going back to the narcissistic parent. Like they're gonna do the same thing over and over again, and they're never gonna change. And even when they get called out, some people keep going back to them. And you know, I think that for a lot of the people who will be listening, what I think is really important, because we've spent time on Sam, is this flip side of the survivor and the strength of the survivor? What is one thing that you wish every survivor of this kind of psychological coercive abuse understood about themselves in order to get them through?

SPEAKER_04 53:04

The basic thing is that you are not what happened to you. What happened to you does not define you, your identity is up to you. You can continue to build it and craft it and make your life so that there are joys in your future. You can write your happy ending, and and I think that you know, understanding that what happened to you does not make you abnormal. So many people, millions of people, have ultimately believed in things that they now look back on and go, what the heck was I thinking? How could I have ever believed that? You know, once you come out of the haze, that's a normal thing. So to to let go of that self-blame and understand. I mean, I had that too when I came out of my situation. I was like, How did I believe that? How did I fall for that? And I thought that nobody else on the planet earth would have ever fallen for it. So I wanted to be tested for mental deficiencies and disabilities because I thought this is not normal, you know, and then I learned that I my brain did what any normal brain would do under the extreme and intense coercion and deception that I had experienced. My brain was manipulated, and I was still a good person.

SPEAKER_02 54:56

Well, and I think that one of the things that, like, number one, of course, you're a wonderful person. You wouldn't have done all this work that you've done to save all these women. So that's the first thing. I I hope that you know and I will vocalize. I think the second thing is that there's hope for a better future, right? Like, I think about myself. If I thought that I would have not ever had this safety, this comfort, the relationship that I had, I probably would have stayed where I was. You have your amazing husband, you have your safety, all of those things and the work that you do. You know, I am incredibly blessed and realize it every day that I open my eyes, not only to be waking up, but also to be where I'm at. So I I appreciate you and all you've done. My last question for you is you have seen humanity um both at its darkest while doing this work for the FBI undercover and the documentary, and at its bravest. What gives you hope today?

SPEAKER_04 56:11

I am filled with hope when I see women reclaim their power after abuse when they find their voice and tell their story with integrity and without stigma and knowing that they can march into the future with all their own free agency. And I see a lot of that here in this town. It's uh it's a very complex town, it's Colorado City, the originally known as the home of the FLDS, but now there's only about three percent FLDS, the rest have left the FLDS or they're outsiders. Oh wow, yeah, because of the there were all these evictions that went on and things like that. But yeah, there's a lot of people in different journeys and different stages in their journey, and I am filled with hope when I see more and more people abandon their superiority and their narcissism and and and stop judging and just start helping.

SPEAKER_02 57:28

I love that. What a beautiful way to end this, and I think also I want to end it on our love for pink because we love like that's how I got Dr. Christine hooked. I said we will just do a podcast talking about pink. So, Dr. Christine, thank you so much for being here. I absolutely loved it. Uh, I I'm I'm filled with life and out to go, be just amazing. So I thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_04 57:58

Well, thank you. And um, after um, can you stop recording?

SPEAKER_02 58:05

Thank you so much for joining us for this incredibly important conversation. If today's episode reminded you of your own experiences, whether a narcissistic parent, an abusive partner, are another controlling relationship, I want you to remember this. You are not what happened to you. Your past explains your story, but it does not define your future. As Dr. Christine shared so beautifully, manipulation follows predictable psychological patterns. That means if you were manipulated, it doesn't mean you're weak. It means you're human. And just as people can be manipulated, they can also heal too. If this episode encouraged you, please take a moment to subscribe, leave a review, or share it with someone who may still be questioning their own reality. You never know whose life you could change because you share this conversation. If you're ready to stop letting your narcissistic mother live rent-free in your mind, I'd love to support you. Join our free webinar happening at the end of August. Thank you for listening to the Beyond Mommy Dares podcast. If this episode resonated with you, please subscribe to the podcast, leave a five-star review, and share it with someone who could use a little hope today. To learn more about coaching, upcoming events, and our growing community, visit the links in the show notes. Until next time, keep choosing yourself, keep healing, and remember, you are worthy of love, peace, and a life beyond survival.

SPEAKER_00 59:34

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