You Left Your Narcissistic Mother. Now What? Healing, No Contact & Breaking the Cycle

What does it actually take to break the cycle after growing up with a narcissistic mother?

In this episode of Beyond Mommy Dearest, I sit down with Leighna, The Cycle Breaking Coach, for an unfiltered conversation about growing up as the black sheep, recognizing abuse, going no contact, and discovering that leaving the relationship is sometimes only the beginning of healing.

Leighna shares how becoming a mother changed the way she understood her own childhood and forced her to confront behaviors she could no longer explain away. We talk about the survival patterns daughters of narcissistic mothers can carry into adulthood, including hypervigilance, self-sabotage, enmeshment, shame, black-and-white thinking, and constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop.

We also get into an important distinction: survival behaviors are not necessarily character flaws. Sometimes the behaviors we hate about ourselves were once the very things that helped us survive.

Leighna and I discuss:

• Being the black sheep in a narcissistic family system
• Going no contact with a narcissistic mother
• Why no contact doesn't immediately make everything better
• Trauma bonds and why leaving can feel impossible
• Self-sabotage as a survival mechanism
• Shame versus guilt after narcissistic abuse
• Hypervigilance and nervous system dysregulation
• Enmeshment and learning to stop looking for someone else to save you
• BPD, attachment, and the stigma surrounding mental health
• Therapy versus coaching and the role each can play
• Reconnecting with yourself after years of being conditioned to ignore your own needs
• Breaking generational cycles as a parent
• Why healing doesn't have to be a lifelong sentence
• What emotionally healthy relationships actually look and feel like

One of my favorite moments in this conversation comes when Leighna describes a healthy relationship as “a landing place with no requirement to land.”

Healthy love allows two people to remain individuals. It makes room for different emotions, interests, needs, and identities without demanding that one person disappear to keep the other comfortable.

And perhaps the most important message of this entire conversation:

You have the power. They do not.

Breaking the cycle isn't about pretending the abuse didn't affect you. It's about recognizing what you learned in order to survive, deciding what no longer serves you, and slowly choosing something different.

Books Mentioned

• I’m Glad My Mom Died by Jennette McCurdy — https://amzn.to/4gjazdB
• Half His age by Jennette McCurdy — https://amzn.to/4xeKL9W 
• I Hate You, Don’t Leave Me — https://amzn.to/4qqzAbw

Connect with Noelani | Beyond Mommy Dearest

• https://www.facebook.com/BeyondMommyDearest/
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• https://www.instagram.com/beyondmommydearest/
• https://www.youtube.com/@BeyondMommyDearest
• http://www.beyondmommydearest.com

Connect with Leighna | The Cycle Breaking Coach

• https://www.instagram.com/thecyclebreakingcoach/
• The Cycle-Breaking Coach (@eighteightyeightcoaching)TikTok · The Cycle-Breaking Coach1.3K+ followers

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

You're listening to the Beyond Mommy Daris podcast, where we talk about growing up with narcissistic moms, how it shapes your nervous system, your relationships, and your sense of self, and how to heal without shame.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

I'm your host, Nelani Pearl Hernandez. This episode is sponsored by the Happy Cannabis, body products designed to help you on your healing journey by supporting your nervous system with every application.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

What happens after you finally walk away from a narcissistic mother? Today I'm joined by Lena, the cycle breaking coach for a raw conversation about no contact, trauma bonds, self-sabotage, nervous system healing, and learning who you are when you're no longer living for your abuser. Lena, thank you so much for being here. Um what people don't see before is like we get to talk and get to know each other because most of the time, with the exception of one of my first podcasts with my um good friend Victoria from grad school, we are meeting for the first time when we're doing these podcasts. And the one thing that we have in common is crazy psycho-ass moms. So um, and I really wish that was in the DSM five that it just said, crazy psycho ass moms, how are they diagnosed? So thank you for being here, Alina. I appreciate you. I appreciate your voice in the space. And um, for listeners who are maybe just discovering your work for the first time, can you introduce yourself a little bit and then share with us what led to you creating um the cycle breaking coach?

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Yeah, absolutely. So um, as you said, my name's Lena. Um, I was raised by a very narcissistic woman, and I cut her off four and a half years ago. And after that, I went on this journey of healing, as we all do, or I think most of us anyway. Um, and in that I realized a few things. One, I am really good at communicating, and I am really good at holding space for people and helping them find the wisdom and knowledge that they already know naturally without putting my personal input into it, you know? And so I was like, that's something I need to know about myself because when you grow up in a narcissistic home, you're taught that you're not worth anything unless it's to serve them. And if you aren't doing something directly for that narcissistic parent, you just you're what are you, you know? And so when I walked away, I was like, I need to find out who I am. That was a big part of it. Um, and then through that healing journey, recognizing like, okay, there are a lot of things that I picked up from her in order to survive. And they are fucking up my life, they are ruining my relationships, they are making me so stressed and anxious and like I can't do anything. And I've got to, I've got to just acknowledge that. And just acknowledging it and being like, oh my God, I do this like her, took so much pressure off of me because I didn't feel like I constantly had to say I'm not like her. It was like, no, I did that. And by saying I did that, I am nothing like her because she would never, you know, right, right. Then I had a friend who was like, hey, you know, it turns out I learned about this thing called professional coaching. And I really think you should look into it. And I was like, okay. And so I started diving into like the ICF and like ICF accredited schools, and like what sets apart somebody who really knows what they're fucking doing to somebody who got on TikTok and said, Hey, I did that. Oh, I'm gonna tell you how to do it better. Um, how do how do I do that? You know, and I found coaching and I fell in love with it. I fell in love with helping my clients recognize who they are, figure out how to love themselves, figure out how to regulate their nervous systems, and figure out how to do the things that therapy wasn't doing for them, right? Therapy serves so many purposes, but there was something missing for all of my clients. And so I got to step in and say, like, what do you need? And they're like, whoa, I need to, I don't know. How do I figure that out? You know? Um, and with that, just came like telling my story because I wanted people to know they weren't alone. And so I really started taking content, you know, seriously. And I just kind of snowballed from there.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

That's that's actually a really great story. And I think for a lot of people in this healing space on the internet, they really, this is kind of how it uh it happens. It's you know, for me, I've been no contact for about 10 years now, and it took me a while to do it. You know, I'm an only child, so it was it was definitely scary for me to think, okay, I don't have anybody else around. I'm not in contact with my family. What is going to happen? And that strength really comes from my husband to say, okay, I'm gonna be okay as I do this. And, you know, for you, you openly talk about being a the black sheep of your family and going no contact. So tell me a little bit about what that means so that the you know, the listeners can and the watchers know. And then what really was the turning point when you realized that that healing had to be a priority?

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Yeah. Okay, so the first question um being a black sheep and what that means to me. To me, it means um, well, in my family, it meant seeing the abuse, calling it out, and then standing against it. Um I am one of four, and my younger siblings, I'm the oldest. So my younger siblings all kind of fall in different categories about what they see and don't see from my mom. And to me, it was finding a way to not just be like one of my sisters who tries to see the best in her and ignore all the rest, right? I wanted to see good things, but I also didn't want that to only be where I was anymore. And then another sister is like, I see it, I'm gonna call it out, but I'm not gonna stand up for myself. So I'm just gonna be quiet when it comes down to like it's getting tough. And then another sibling, you know, just it just doesn't see it, doesn't see it at all. And um, I had to figure out how do I stand out from all of that because I don't want to be like that. I see that it is ruining their lives now, that it is like I'm recognizing it. I see it, I just don't want to be a part of it. So I had to stand out from that. The other part of it was, you know, I always had an emo heart. And I think like most 90s babies, we were told it's just a phase. And this is where that, you know, quote, it was never a phase mom comes in because that's so true. It clearly wasn't. But as I got older and I started finding like who I was, I got away from her and I started stepping into it. I was like, oh my gosh, I really like black. Like I wear mostly black. Like this is the most color I own. I'm like, you know, that's how that's who I am, that's where I feel comfortable. And so it was also like embracing who I am without her influence anymore. Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Right. Well, I think for a lot of parents, you know, I I know my mom went through it because I went through a punk rock, and I mine was actually a punk rock phase. Like I I still love punk rock music, but it was definitely a phase for me where it was black and pink hair, it was, you know, all the things that punk rock is, and she didn't like it. But instead of like freaking out about it or you know, being a normal parent, it was like this like super abusive, like crazy when it came to what who I was, and it was it just didn't make sense at all. And that is like the biggest difference. Like most parents will know, oh, it's a phase, it's a blah blah blah, you know, whatever, whatever. Whereas this is that that is not my mom or my parents. So I think that that is a really significant thing is that you knew that it wasn't a phase and you wanted to move forward. You know, was there a moment that you realized growing up that this wasn't normal? You had four siblings or three siblings and they were all younger, but was there a point where you were like, ugh, this is not normal. There's something more going on.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

You know, I think that my nervous system, my gut, like my intuition did, but my brain didn't. I worked so hard to be enough. I was like the honor kid, you know, I always had A's and B's. I was constantly pushing to do more. I had a job at 14, like two jobs by the time I was 16. Like I was just always trying to make make everyone else happy. Um, and I truly believed that I was the problem because I noticed that my siblings didn't have the same kind of abuse that I had. Um, looking back now after going through my healing journey, I recognized they were also abused. It was just differently because flying monkeys are being abused. Um, and so I just I thought that it was just me. I didn't realize it was it was her until I became a mother. When I became a mom, I was like, how could you put your hand over your child's mouth and nose and make them not be able to breathe until they pee themselves or almost pass out?

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

How do you do that and then laugh about it hysterically? I don't, I don't get it. Um, I couldn't imagine even raising my hand to my child, let alone merely making them pass out, you know? Right. And so that's when I was like, this isn't normal because I knew I wasn't gonna do that to my kid. How could you have done it to me? And so then I was like very on guard with everything. That's when it kind of started clicking. Then there was a day where he actually threatened to punch me while I was holding my child. And that was like my first wake-up call. That's where I started going low contact. That's where I started stepping back and being like, it's not just me. It's she's going to hurt my child because she knows that would hurt me. And because I'm not affected by her behavior directly towards me anymore. It's like this is that's the next best thing. And I remember saying, no, she would never hurt him. Like, I see how she is with him, she wouldn't hurt him. He's not me, you know? And then she did. And I that's when I was like, oh my gosh, I was right all this time. All these days where I was like, something's not right, something's not right. And then I'm like, no, it's just you're you're just overreacting again, right? The gaslighting my of myself because it was programmed into me so deeply. It was just like I can't do it anymore. And that was it. That was the end for me.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

You know, that is it's so first of all, I'm so sorry that you went through that. That that is horrible, and that your child went through that. It it is one of the things that I say, I say often, and I say it, you know, because I think it's a good thing to be heard, but also I think for me is that my daughter saved me. And um, our my daughter gave me a reason to live, my husband saved me. And the reason being is when I was pregnant, I think I was right before I was about to have my daughter, my mom hit me. And she was coming at me towards my daughter, but towards my, you know, where she was, and I like blocked her from doing that. And I that I moved out. My, you know, that was 30 years ago. I moved out, and then um I was low contact with her, very similar to what you're saying, and then she was watching my daughter, and um what was included in the narcissistic abuse with my mother was uh medical abuse of me as a result of just the attention. And so it was like really it was frustrating, it was scary, it was confusing for me, and he took my daughter to the doctor when she was little, and the doctor called and said, you know, ma'am, I have someone here trying to get your daughter seen. What do you want us to do? And I was like, no. And I that was it. That was the line that's drawn. I think that yeah, and really what I'll say in regards to this, I don't think that they what they're trying to do there, it has really, and I say this with all the love in the world for all my kids and my husband, has nothing to do with the the person that they're doing it to. It's that they are trying to hurt you or me. Yeah, right. Exactly. And that because we are the target, right? Because they can choose what they're gonna do in regards to whatever it is that that, and that we're the target, that's the big thing, you know. And I'm so sorry you went through that. And I'm really happy that we found each other because the stories are so similar, it's so scary. Like it is once you see that formula, it's the same for every person. It is literally the same. And and I always say it's you know, it's not anything to do with you, you're not special. Like, we could break it down psychologically, uh, the narcissistic person's um self-worth and all those things, but that's not what this podcast is about. This podcast is centering the survivors and how they've healed because fuck the abusers, like really fuck them. I I don't, I don't care. I don't care that they were maybe abused when they were little. We were abused when we were little and we've come through it. Like that, and that like for a lot of people, that's a hard pill to swallow. Is that I don't care about them and their history, like I don't. It is um, there's a really, you know, I gotta clip it, I'll clip it in. There's a really, really good um scene in West Wing. I don't know if you've ever seen West Wing. So West Wing, um, the chief of staff, Leo McGarry, is an alcoholic. And during the entire course of the um the seasons, he does not drink until there is one point where he does. But he was explaining to someone who kept offering him a drink and offering him a drink um why he didn't drink. He's all I'm out an alcoholic. And they said, Oh, it's just one drink. He's all, but that's the thing. It's not one drink, it's the next drink and the next drink and the next drink. And everyone has the pro like the has the ability to be a shithead. Like everyone does on a daily basis. I would say a large majority of the population decides not to. And what our mothers did is choose to let whatever dysregulation feed into this narcissism um and then abuse us. And that I think is one of the hardest things is being able to break these cycles. And so, what for you has been one of the hardest parts of breaking the cycle emotionally?

SPEAKER_02 16:31

Um not beating myself up when I almost say something my mother would be proud of.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Yes, yes. And when we say proud of, that means negative. Like the negative thing should be like, yes, bad thing, bad thing.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Yeah. Um I actually made a video about this the other day because I went to say something to my son and his ice cream cone broke. Um, I was like making him an ice cream cone and it broke. And I told him, I said, Hey, you know, it's broken. And he's like, Oh no. I said, Yeah. And then I almost said, but you're just gonna have to deal with it. And that's something my mother said to me all the time, but it's not true. He doesn't have to do something. He could choose to not eat the ice cream at all. He could get a bowl instead of the cone, he could smash up the cone and use it as a topping. And you know what? That kid's so fucking smart, he could probably think of 15 other ways to have not dealt with it, right? So in that moment, I was like, Oh, yep. You know what we could do is we could just add extra ice cream right there if that'll work for you. And he was like, Yeah. Completely like one, we didn't even have a spiral, we didn't have a meltdown, we didn't have a moment of like everything's gone to shit, right? Yeah. Um, which is what that one statement always instilled in me was like, oh, it's horrible. But the truth is, isn't it? It isn't horrible, it's what you make of it. And so in that moment, I caught myself. But four years ago, when I would catch myself doing something like that, I internalized it as I'm horrible rather than I adapted to survival by doing what she taught me to do. And now I'm adapting to healthy life, and and that means doing it differently. And and how that takes time that that takes learning. It's not, I can't stand when people tell me that like as soon as they went no contact, everything was better, that they were all better, that everything was no, no, the fuck it wasn't. Because one, that's not how your nervous system works. Your nervous system was trained to be this shit, this shit miss, and now you have to untangle it. It's like Christmas lights, it takes time, and sometimes you have to replace a battery, meaning replace an entire habit. You can't just say, Okay, I unplug it, and now there's no more Christmas lights that are tangled up. Like, that's not how it works.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Um, yeah, that's right. I love that analogy of tangled Christmas lights because that's really, I mean, if you look at your brain, I mean, they literally were rewiring your brain, right? Like there's all these neurotransmitters, neurochemicals that go with abuse and the rewiring, and you're literally untangling that mess. Literally, you're untangling a mess in order to get to baseline. I mean, that's really what they did. And I think that uh for a lot of survivors of this narcissistic abuse, there is a shame that comes with like thinking certain things that you were automatically trained to think.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

Yeah, and that's what I talk about so much because it is something that we we carry this shame and this guilt. And that's the thing guilt and shame are two different things, okay? Right. Shame is something that's put on you. So if you are feeling shameful, it is not from you, it's from the outside, which means it's not your burden to carry, right? Let their task be theirs, their emotions are theirs to handle, theirs to regulate, theirs to deal with. And then if it's guilt, that means that there's something that is truly not aligned with a value that you hold. So sometimes that means looking past about a value that your mother or other narcissistic caregiver puts on you isn't yours. Well, sometimes it's not. For example, Christianity, that was not my value. It was put on me. And for a long time, I believed people who weren't Christians were bad because they just weren't. And that's what I was told. And as I separated myself from that, I realized that's not my value at all. My value is how do you treat others? I don't care what your religion is, I don't care what your belief system is or your faith or whatever. But how do you treat people? Because I know a shit ton of Christians who do not treat people well, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:59

In the name of God, they don't treat people well. That's the thing. Like, and and that's a whole nother like conversation to have because I think uh, you know, Oprah Winfrey and Mel Robbins got it fucking wrong when they said, Hey, you should not be spoiled brats and talk to your parents. Well, fuck you, especially and especially disappointed in Oprah because she has been through abuse and she should know better. That's a whole nother topic. But when people use, you know, well, God says honor thy father and honor thy mother, like that's great. And there's like a thousand other verses that we can talk about that talks about abuse, that talks about treating people badly, all those things. So fuck them. But I think that what I think is the most beautiful thing about healing is that every day is different and every day you're growing. That's a beautiful gift that this abuse has given. And so for you, what does healing really look like right now compared to when you first started like four and a half years ago and going no contact?

SPEAKER_02 22:13

Okay, so four and a half years ago, healing looked like getting my eating uh disorder under control and graduating from the mental health hospital from the IOP program that I voluntarily checked myself into because I was not okay after going no contact. That's one thing I do want to say here is that going no contact doesn't mean it's easier. It doesn't mean it gets better even right away. Most of us struggle really bad. So if you do go no contact, please reach out to somebody. Yes. My inbox is always open. You anyone can message me. Um, so I just want to say that. But then um, you know, that was a big part for me. And then back then, now it's more of like allowing the celebrations to be celebrations. Um, I have a service dog who will be retiring in two years from now. And when he and I trained him myself, and it takes about two years to fully train a new dog. And so I just recently, as of yesterday, brought home my next prospect puppy. And I was so excited. I have been in love with this dog since I saw it, and I was like, I know that's the one for me. Yeah, yeah. And so I got so excited, you know? And then last night I'm laying in bed. This dog came home. He's like so calm and chill, and he's like sleeping in his crate without whining the first night away from his litter. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is like, oh, the universe is looking out for me. Um, and then all of a sudden it started being like, okay, this is too good.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Where's the bad thing? That's gonna drop. When's the next shoe that's gonna drop is always what it is.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

You know, it's so it used to be where it was just that. It was like, okay, the next bad thing is coming, but now it's like I'm so aware that I'm so aware that I caused most of the next bad things. Yeah, I was so used to the chaos and so used to the up and down and the struggle that I created it because I didn't know what else to do. And so now I'm aware of it. And so I'm sitting in bed and I'm like, okay, this is not working. I am spiraling, that's my saboteur speaking. Right. I'm a P coach. So, you know, I'm sitting here like doing PQ reps, trying to like regulate myself and just recognize, like, okay, it's okay that you're thinking this, and you have the power to choose to do differently. So what are you gonna do? And I'm like, right, we're gonna meditate until we go to bed.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Right, you know, and this is the interesting thing because I think that what a lot of people might not understand is there's a lot of self-sabotage that goes into you know, recovering from a narcissistic abuse um situation. And that self-sabotage is like the IEDs that were put in your brain by your, you know, your abuser, whether it's your mother or whatever it is. And for me, I see that often. And I see it in um as I'm starting to be successful or whatever it is, I will start to talk myself out of it, not in a bad way, but in a like, you don't deserve. Well, I guess it is in a bad way. There, there was the the automatic response, right? There, you don't deserve this. This is so wonderful. What's gonna happen? All of those things. And for a lot of people, that is a hard thing. Being successful is hard. So what I want to say first is like, I'm so proud of you for checking yourself in. And I want to say this for other people who are listening. Like, if you are going through a difficult time, definitely reach out to, you know, for to you, to me, to whoever it is, and reach out to a mental health professional. And know that, you know, with us and our coaching, oftentimes what happens is therapists look at family systems, they look at that past trauma, they look at whatever it is. While coaches, we really look at that forward motion, what things that you can do in order to get to your space. For me, I hold all the same confidentialities that a therapist holds. Yes, as a result, as you do as well, as a result of the training that I received in grad school, because there is that. On top of that, I don't know if anybody knows, but you have to pay for supervision when you go and get your hours. And as a single mom at the time, that was crazy expensive. So for people, that's a hard thing to do. And so know that oftentimes therapists also get their coaching certification, and coaches might have gone through some kind of training. So, no, all of that. I'm not certified to diagnose anything. I have a DSM 5 in back of me. I'm not certified to diagnose anything, so insurance can't pay for us, but we can't help. And that's the big thing. Um, you know, you talk a lot about trauma bonds with narcissistic moms, and how do you describe how that feels like to someone who might still be stuck on the inside?

SPEAKER_02 27:33

I would say that it feels like some people say it's an addiction, but I think it's often not something that you recognize. And I think even when addicts don't want to admit it, they often recognize what's happening. I don't think that it's quite like that. I think it's more like if you step back and you look at the relationship, are you the only one giving? Are you the only one hurting or showing hurt or communicating hurt? And are you the only one taking all the blame for the hurt? I think it's that, and then you say, okay, well, I'm not gonna take this anymore, but then leaving feels impossible. Impossible. I think so often people feel like going no contact is impossible, and although I can recognize that it feels impossible, it is a choice you are making. If you're saying to me, I can't go no contact because I live with my mother, you're choosing to stay there. I am not saying it is not the best option for you right now, because sleeping outside under a bridge may not be a better option for you, but to others it is. And by saying you do not have that choice, you are actually keeping yourself stuck. So it is the idea of I have to be here, I can't leave, and I want to leave, but I can't leave. To me, that's how I see it. Um and I think um, circling back, you had mentioned self-sabotage. I think it's really interesting how so many people think self-sabotage happens after going no contact, but they don't ever recognize how much it happened while you were in contact and the value of self-sabotage. So many people see it as just bad. Well, what is bad, honestly? When you self-sabotaged, it was a form of having control, it was a form of not being hurt by the one person you craved to be loved by the most. Self-sabotage was a tool of survival and and for many of us, a tool of happiness. Because if I messed it up, then the person I just wanted to love me didn't. Because if I messed it up, then I had the control. She didn't take it from me, right? And then you carry that over, and I think because there's no one there sabotaging it or requiring the sabotage, that's when people start seeing it, and then they're like, I can't believe I'm doing this to myself. It's so horrible. But is it it protected you for all this time? It got you here. It doesn't mean it was good or the best, but that's black and white thinking, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:36

And that's really common with kids of um who are recovering from narcissistic abuse, like um that there's a lot of black and white thinking. And I, you know, by the grace of God, my husband, he's so patient with me because I'm like a black and white thinker. Um, and also I'm a semantic thinker. So that drive like for some people that drives them nuts. It's like, okay, well, this is gold. And like I'm like, well, it's not really gold, it's like a rose gold. And it's like, really? Did I need to say that? Right. And so I know that I drive him and my kids probably nuts. And I'm like, let me say this right now publicly. I'm sorry. I know I'm a pain in the ass. And I appreciate the grace with that. But the one thing that I will never change my black and white thinking on is lying and and justice. When those two things are like any form of lying, even a white lie, I'm like, you lied. Like that is a lie. You lied. And my the it drives my kids nuts because they're like, oh, you know, if they were late on a homework assignment or something, I'm like, just tell me that you were late. Like, I care about why you were late and we can have a discussion about it, but don't be like, well, you know, it was not really late. It was like, you know, 15 minutes late based on, you know, when they turn in it in online. It was fucking late. Like, it was late. Just say, you know what, it was late, and the internet went down because the internet bubbles up sometimes and it decides us off. Like, just say it. Like, just say it. It's not that hard. Because I think that for me, semantics or that like half half-truths are how my mom manipulated me. Yeah, and my dad, and my grandparents, and everyone around her. It's half truths, right? Like, just be honest. Like, for instance, if you were like, Oh, how much do you weigh to my mom? She'd be like, Oh, maybe I weigh like 115. She doesn't. That's what it says on a driver's license. So semantically, she is right, but she doesn't. Who cares how much you weigh? It's none of your fucking business how much I weigh, right? Like, that's really easy to say. So that black and white thinking, crazy. I totally get it. And you know, I think there's a misnomer when it comes to trauma bonds. And so I want to say this trauma bonds when it's worded trauma bonds, and I know this is semantics now. When it's worded trauma bonds, that is the negative thing. Bonded by trauma is different, meaning if you and your siblings were still in contact and you were super close, you are bonded by the trauma that you went through. Right. Where a trauma bond is control of one person as a result of the trauma. And I think that is a really important thing. Like, so, and I could probably do a whole month on that because there's a lot of people that are bonded by trauma. But I think the thing that's really important is people to assess that before they say trauma bond. It's very popular right now to say like popular, like toxic comments. Oh, they're being a narc. Oh, they're gaslighting me, oh, all of those things. Like, I want to bring it back to the science of it and what it actually is. So thank you for explaining that. Many daughters that I see that comment on things that I have, and you probably experienced this too, have an immense amount of guilt, or and I would even say it's probably more shame after going no contact. So, how did you personally separate that guilt or shame from the actual responsibility of being a child of your mother?

SPEAKER_02 34:26

And I think for me, the way that I was able to separate the the two and recognize that it wasn't my responsibility is recognizing that I wouldn't expect someone else to do it. So, why am I playing a role of somebody that I wouldn't be? I wouldn't expect my best friend to deal with this with their friends. So why was I saying it was I was less? Why was I saying that I have to take on all of this crap, right? Like when I go to her, I'm listening, I'm apologizing for your behavior. I mean, it happens that way, but like that's what was happening, you know? Like, I'm apologizing that you hurt me. Oh sorry. Somehow, like, yeah, how dare I have human emotions? What was I thinking? Yeah. Um like, and somehow it was never reciprocated. I read a book and I couldn't even tell you what book it was because I don't remember what it's called, but I can tell you it's by Rusty Lock E, maybe L-O-C-K-E, I think. Um it's a super short book. It's like his memoir or something, but in there he talks about not taking on the responsibility of others. And that that was like a big wake-up call to me. There's a lot of things in that book that I don't agree with, and I just want to say that, like, I don't necessarily align with his views. Um, you know, when you like take what's valuable and leave the rest, it was one of those for me. And it made a big difference in my life because I stopped assuming responsibility for everybody else's shit. I stopped deciding that I was the only one who could fix it.

SPEAKER_03 36:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

You know, and that I think is a really important thing. I think for um in my experience in healing, one of the things that I is important for people to know is not everyone's healing journey looks the same. And I call it a chicutery board of healing. Whatever you take from people, like you could say you can hear something or be listening to someone who you think is atrocious, but they might say one specific thing, and you can say, you know what, that really makes sense. Not everybody who's atrocious does that, but sometimes you know, there's a little ray of shunk sunshine, and I think that is a really important thing for people to to realize. Um I think you know one of the things one of the things your content often touches on is that hypervigilance and that survival mode. And what were some signs for you that your nervous system was never actually safe?

SPEAKER_02 37:20

I think somebody just finally asked me when's the last time you felt safe. And I was like, I don't know what that feels like. Um so never. I think another big part was I started recognizing that. So my wife and I, we've been together for 12 years, married for 10 this year. And I started recognizing that being around, thank you, being around her, and she's welcome. You know, you were saying earlier, like your partner thinks you're no, mine thinks I'm a queen. I refuse to listen to anything else. I'm scared. Um, but no, I you know, I started recognizing that like the only time I felt safe to even do like basic necessities, use the bathroom, for example. If I traveled, I couldn't go to the restroom. And I know that this happens to not just me, but like it was to the point of if she wasn't home, I couldn't use the restroom because I felt so unsafe all the time. Yeah. But when she was around, I was like, wait a second, this is totally different. Right. That's not a bad thing because it allowed me to recognize it. But now, how had I stayed on that track, had I decided that I was just gonna be okay with a codependent relationship, that would have been unhealthy. So again, I want to reiterate 10%. And like you were saying, there's something good in basically everything, that it's your choice to decide if you want to see it or not. And maybe it's not directly there, but they there's a saying that's like you're connected to everybody by with five degrees or something, yeah. Seven or seven degrees of uh of Kevin Bacon. That's yes, okay, like so yeah, something like that, right? So there's I don't like that about it, but I like this about it. Okay, well, I don't like that about it, but I like this about it. You know, like PQ, we call it the 10%. Find the 10% that you can turn into something that's not horrible, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:24

And I think that's really important, you know. I I say that my husband saved me, and I and I honestly do think that's true because we're talking about, you know, where that safety comes from. He was the first person that saw, without me telling him that my mom was a narcissist. The first person he was like, Whoa, that was a lot. I'm gonna let you handle that. You know, I've told the story multiple times about what she did at my grandfather's funeral. My grandfather loved my husband, um, met him at the end of his life, and none of us, my grandfather was a patriarch of the family, and none of us knew what to do when he got sick. And like, you know, when he was trying to get up one time, all of us were just staring at him. And my husband was like, What are you guys doing? And like, you know, politely moved forward and helped him out of bed. And so my grandpa, when you know, I my daughter and I both went and had some time with him alone without anyone around to just kind of like say our goodbyes, listen to the last bits of wisdom that he would want to give to us. And he was like, Don't fuck this up. Like, literally went out about my husband. And I love telling that story because I think my my grandpa held on as long as he could as a result of knowing that I was going through all this stuff. Because he was my grandpa, he couldn't really like step in and save me from it, which is fine. It was not his responsibility. Um, and he knew like he knew because my dad, he he had full custody of my dad and his two brothers when my dad was like, I think he was like under the age of one. And his wife, my grandma, so my dad is like in his 70s. I loved my grandma, she was an amazing grandma. She went, she moved to Oregon, she had a whole nother family. I think she really took like took lists of her life and said, Okay, I'm going to do it a different way this time. And so my dad has his own mother wounds, and my mom was a narcissist, my stepmother was a narcissist. I say often that his new girlfriend, who I haven't met and they've been with for a while, might be a narcissist. I have a feeling she might be because she's hiding, but but I'll let you all know once I meet her. Because my dad just was not equipped for it. Yeah, he had his own mother wounds. I don't fault him for that. And my grandpa just couldn't step. He, you know, it's not the right thing for him to do to step in. They protected me as much as they could within a certain reason. Like he picked me up every day from high school. Every day from high school, he picked me up. And I was like, uh, he doesn't have to come. It's clear across town for him to come and pick me up. And then I would go to their house until my mom got off of work. And then sometimes she would pick me up and sometimes she wouldn't, or my grandpa would, you know, drop me off. I never stayed at their house overnight, even though I probably could have and it would have been easier. But he was like, you know, the there's a line. And I can't, I you have to figure this out. And even though probably at the time I didn't agree with it, I absolutely agree with it now. Because we, as coaches, know we can't tell our survivors, hey, by the way, your mom's an arc, or hey, by the way, your significant other's an arc, or hey, by the way, your dad's an arc. That person has to see it. We can slowly push, pull the curtain back, but they're gonna have to make that and decide. And I think that that's a really important thing. I don't know if you've experienced this. I've experienced a couple times where survivors that I'm working with minimize what happened to them or convince themselves that it wasn't that bad. Why do you think that's the case? Because that's how they kept themselves safe. Yep. Yep. And they have that little IED. That's a thing, right? Like that's a little IED that I think that people, as they start to step away and they're like, oh, it's not safe out there. Oh, she wasn't that bad, right? Like, I've probably said that 10 or 15 times before I stopped talking to my mom. Oh, it really wasn't that bad. It was bad, like it was crazy, it was bad. Um and only with people, survivors like you and other people in the healing space can I um can I deal with that? Like, like where they Are like, yeah, that was crazy. And I'm so sorry. Taking a quick break from our podcast to let you know about today's sponsors. Feeling overwhelmed by anxiety? Does it have you overthinking, second-guessing yourself, or constantly on edge? Meet iCare, a 14-day experience designed to help you understand your anxiety patterns and practice simple, evidence-based tools that fit into real life. 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She left her a note and said, Thank you for all your furniture. And I was like, Oh my god. She she thought that she thought that shit out. Like she thought it out and then left a note so that it didn't look like she was guilty. That is maniacal. And that's what I think for a lot of people that they have to understand is you talked about addiction a little bit, um, in the sense of like people, we are addicted to this behavior. Uh and I know that they are addicted to it too. They are addicted to it. They get a high, they get a you know, a hit off of treating us like shit. And I say that because anytime my mom leaves me a message, she's blocked, but I'll go and look at my blocked messages. It takes literally 15 seconds for her to turn and take off that mask. It's hi, how's it going? You're super sweet, you know, a super sweet message, and then oh my god, and like just if you can think of all the horrible things that you would call your worst enemy, take that, multiply it by a thousand, and that's what she says to me. And I would assume that's what your your mom says to you, or you know, if she did decides, yeah, did say to you, and if she just decides to find you on uh, you know, any social media, that's what she says. Um, and here I'll say this now. Um, fuck your mom. I'm not gonna believe anything that you're gonna say because I know the truth. So good luck with trying to convince me differently. So we'll just put that out there.

SPEAKER_02 47:16

And she will, man, she will. That's the thing about a narcissistic person is that they really do like after living in the delusion for so long, they like really believe it. Like they believe their own lies.

SPEAKER_01 47:34

It's crazy. It's crazy. Well, and you know, the thing is, um, so in my husband, so my husband and I own our own business, and one of the things that we specialize in is like high conflict um mediation with in companies, organizational health. Because what I think what we've experienced that people don't talk about is how this narcissistic abuse affects everything. It literally affects everything. If people look at the world today, it affects everything. Everything from advertisements to nonprofits, it affects everything. And I had someone call me this morning. I was dropping off my kids um at school. It's um, and let me say this on a side. It's my bonus daughter's last Friday of her senior year. I'm not okay. Like I literally have been crying about everything. Um, and some of it might be perimenopause, but I would say that probably most of it's not. So um she was saying, you know, this person, you know, this person is being like this to me. And I said, I I know, I know that's it's super frustrating. And she's like this to everyone, so you're not special. Like, meaning for us, I say that we were special because we were the target. She's a bitch to everyone, but you know, being the target, I said, and you are the person who holds accountability. We held accountability for our mothers, we were the accountability, and that is a scary thing for a narcissist that is stuck. Like the fact that we're alive, that is her culpability. Yeah, and that's scary. So they're gonna do everything that they can to pull you down, flying monkeys, all that. By the way, flying monkeys, fuck you too, because like we can't see them a mile away. So, you know, a lot of survivors confuse chaos, and I did this for a long time with love because chaos really feels familiar. How did healing change the way you view your relationship, like with your wife?

SPEAKER_02 49:48

Um a big thing that changed for me was to stop expecting or relying on her for anything. You said earlier that your husband saved you, and I I a big part of my healing was to stop letting my wife be the one that saved me, but instead be the mirror so that I could see how to save myself. Yes. Um, I had to, we had to get to a point where she became my coach instead of my therapist. And for those who don't know what a coaching relationship is, a coach doesn't give you advice, they don't tell you what the best choice is, they ask you thoughtful questions so that you can find the best choice. Whereas a therapist might say, Hey, you know, I think it's time for you to do this, this, this, this. Yeah, yeah. And that's just part of the job description. Like they're just different in that way, and that's okay. Right. And that's great. And there's a time for therapy and there's a time for coaching. And I had to say, I need you to stop saving me. I know that I'm asking you for it, and it's because I don't believe I can do it on my own. And I need someone to believe in me so strongly that you will not rescue me anymore. Yeah. Somebody who will say, It's your shit. You got to figure it out. I will do my part. For example, I said, I need to go get help. I need to go to a mental hospital. I don't know how to make make it okay to eat food. And I'm I'm losing 40 pounds in a you know, two months and I'm not okay. Like I need to go get help. And she said, Okay, that's your responsibility. Figure out where you're going. I'll figure out my job stuff so that I can be at home with our child while you go get help. You know, and I think that's the enmesh. Yeah, yes, the enmesh because when you grow up in a narcissistic home, you are a mesh with your narcissistic parent for survival. And then when you don't have them there, you tend to find other ways to a mesh. People who have BPD, like myself, tend to have a favorite person. And I when you have a favorite person, they become your savior. It's not just your favorite person to hang out with, it's the person you rely on to survive. And she was that. And I recognize she wasn't doing a great job. Like, I wasn't okay because it wasn't her job. And she was like, No, I'm not doing this. Like, you got to figure it out. And that's exactly what I needed.

SPEAKER_01 52:16

Well, and that's one of the big things that, you know, one and I think, you know, with my husband, yes, he saved me, took got me out of that space, and then started this process of right, let's have a conversation about this. Let's do this. Why are you feeling this way? Why do you want to do this versus do this? And that is a really important thing. Like, so when I say save, and because I want to make that clear, is took me out of the situation, got me out of the haze because there's a narcissistic haze that falls all over you. And then you're then you start to relax. And for those of you, so I'm gonna get on my mental health soapbox. For those of you who think that BPD is like this big crazy thing because it's under a certain cluster. Fuck you guys, you don't understand. So BPD is very common when you have gone through some kind of trauma. And the reason why is BPD is an attachment disorder, it has nothing to do with anything other than that. And you did a really great job right there of explaining what it could look like. Because I know I I have um worked with many people who have BPD, and it's hard. It's hard, and the feelings are big. The feelings are big, a lot bigger than like if someone cut, well, maybe maybe traffic is probably not the best thing because I'm pretty get pretty upset about traffic, but a reaction might be much bigger than what a and I say a normal, very like loosely, what people usually understand. And what I will say is this I appreciate you bringing light to that because good on you. You are you are a fantastic person. Good on you.

SPEAKER_02 54:10

Like, I think that mental first of all, I just want to also say BPD is not my only three-letter diagnosis. Um I also have a few four and five-letter diagnoses. Okay, so it's not my only one, but what people think of as BPD are the ones who get the most light. It's just like dog bites. Pit bulls are not the ones who do the most biting, but they're the ones who always get the most publicity. Yeah, so then people believe they're bad. It's the same thing with mental health. Most of us have gone to get help because we are tired of our life being miserable. And most of us no longer actually who have been diagnosed with BPD hit all of the criteria because we've done the healing and the change and the growth and the work. We don't just show up to a talk therapy session. We show up to a therapy session where we find a tool and then we fucking use it over and over and over again until it works and becomes natural. I do not have an unhealthy attachment anymore. I am actually now an open, polyamorous person who has had multiple long-distance relationships. I've had multiple, you know, relationships outside of my marriage that have been healthy that have just not worked out for one reason or another. But they weren't unhealthy attachments, they weren't unhealthy relationships. And, you know, that became the way that it is because I worked on it. And that's how most of us are. But until more of us start saying, I'm willing to deal with the backlash, which by the way, I have dealt with the backlash. I my potentially, allegedly possibly mother called CPS on me multiple times, trying to say that my mental health was bad. Unfortunately for her, it wasn't. And I was working on it and I was in a great standing. I've now graduated therapy. My therapist is like, look, you can keep coming to me and spending $150 to tell me about your work. You're graduating. You're literally finding enough of what needs to happen on your own and in your coaching sessions with your professional coach that you pay. Yep. Yep. You don't need me. We don't need to talk about your past anymore. It's not serving you. And I was like, oh yeah, yeah, you you know, you might I think that I just I felt like I heard for so long you need help that now I'm like, I just need help. But the reality is, is I got the help and now I'm okay.

SPEAKER_01 56:38

Yeah, well, and that I think is a really big thing. What I want to say here is a couple things. So um I'm super monogamous because I'm a crazy jealous person, and it's just not my thing. And for you, it totally works. So I want to say that because I think that people don't understand it. When they don't understand, they rip on things. So I want to say, you that's you, you it works for you, not not my thing. So, like that it's not my wife's thing.

SPEAKER_02 57:08

Just to put it out there. My wife is monogamous, my wife is like not interested in dating anyone, you know? So it's like it definitely isn't for everyone. But at some point, when you start to learn who you are and you start to feel safe in those moments, I would not if I was still where I was four years ago, there is no fucking way I could have maintained two relationships because I would I would have imploded on myself. Yes, yes. I think you know, number four, like just because somebody has been diagnosed with BPD doesn't mean that they are currently with BPD. But that's what I think is really important. Most people, um, this came from the book I hate you, don't leave me. And it's a book about BPD. It's an amazing book. If you have never read it, you should, even if you don't have BPD or know someone with BPD, because it's just a great tool to show you how to have better relationships, right? Um, but in that book, they talk about how most people by the age of 45 don't even have BPD anymore. And it's because they've done the healing, they've done the work. Because, like you said, it is an attachment disorder. So once you learn to have a healthy attachment, you don't have disorder anymore.

SPEAKER_01 58:21

Well, and I think that's a really important thing to like discuss when we're talking about it. And there's this really great nonprofit called Emotions Matter that we've worked with before. They are fantastic, they talk about it. And I say this because it is an important, it's an important thing for people to understand that you should graduate from therapy. You should. That is part of the healing and coaching. And coaching, like our job, and I'll say it once. I don't I don't like saying it because you know, income, but it is our job as coaches to work ourselves out of a job. That's the that's the job. That's the job. And I think that for a lot of people, there's a misnomer that you need to continue. If you need to come back for a spot check, like go for it. I'll go my my Mac, I'll go for it. Like, I'm all about it. Like, come back for a spot check. Same thing with therapy. There is a misnomer, I think, in the world right now where you have to go to therapy all the time. If therapy serves you, fantastic, great, go. And you don't need to.

SPEAKER_02 59:32

I also want to say healing is not a lifelong sentence. You can be done healing. Growth, growth is a lifelong sentence, but healing does not. I I hear people say all the time, like, I'm gonna be healing forever because of my trauma. No, you're not. You're you'll only be healing forever because of your trauma if you choose to choose forever.

SPEAKER_01 59:57

I gotta get this, I've gotta make sure I put that clip up because I think from the West Wing, it's really important for people to understand that mental health is a choice, meaning if you if there is something that you I think that narcissists, this might be a you know, people might not like this, but I think that narcissists have a choice. Like they have a choice on whether or not they're gonna be some way. We had a choice to break the cycle, yes, and we did. We've broken the cycle, and that I think is a really important thing. The other thing I want to pinpoint, and then I'm gonna continue on with our questions, and I don't care how long this goes, if we have to break it into two podcasts, I think that's fine. Um coaching, or excuse me. Um, you should graduate from therapy, like there should be a goal. This is where I want to be, this is where I am now, and that's fine. And come back and spot check. That I'm all about that. I think that is a great thing. Um so now that we've blown that whole thing up and let people know that it's not forever. Um, what do you think are some signs that people are still in that survival mode? Even if they appear to be functional on the outside.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:20

Yeah. You know, I think it's important to say the reason I blow it up is because I think people deserve to know that they can do it on their own. And if I make them feel like they have to constantly come to me, then then they never believe in themselves fully. And that is what I want as a coach is for my clients to believe in themselves fully. Yes. Um, and I think that part of that comes with just recognizing. So, like, I think that that's the answer to your question is what can you recognize? What can you pull out? What can you see that you didn't before?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:56

Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. I agree with that. You know, a lot of and we just talk, I just asked this question, so let me start another one. Okay, how does a healthy relationship actually look and feel like to you now?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:10

Oh my gosh, this is one of my favorite topics. Okay. I don't even get to talk about it enough because I spend so much of my time talking about the signs and signals of an unhealthy relationship. Yeah, yeah. Um, but a healthy relationship feels like a landing place with no requirement to land. Yep, that's it. A healthy relationship looks like someone supporting you in who you are, what you want, and what you like without changing who they are, what they want, and what they like. Um, and I think it looks like it looks like healthy communication. It's not always happy, but it should never include yelling and screaming. It should never include a point where somebody doesn't feel heard or listened to. And I'm not saying that if that happens on occasion that you are not in a healthy relationship, I'm saying in that moment, your relationship is not healthy, and that's where you get to work on that spot next, right? Um, how can I do better? This is where that growth comes in. It looks like constant growth, both together and individually. People forget a relationship is two people, not one. And so there it has to be about you individually before it can be about you guys together.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:48

Yeah, I I totally agree with that. You know, if I could say what like physically what it feels like, I like the coming home spot, uh like coming home on landing space. I also like for me, like feelings, um, like materials are a big thing more recently. I think again, some of it has to do with perimenopause. And I just read something about how if there was like severe trauma or something traumatic that happened in your life during perimenopause, it like starts to light up again, which I think is of course it does, and very interesting. But to me, like what a healthy relationship looks like is all the things you you said, and also like it feels like a warm blanket. Like, have you ever had those blankets that like it's just perfect? Like it lies over you and it's the correct weight, and it's like the correct feeling, and all those things. I think when I describe what a healthy relationship, that is one of the things I go to. The other one is and my daughter, um, my daughter's 30 and she has the best boundaries of anyone that I've ever met in regards to me as her mom. Um because of the abuse that I went through, because of the world that we live in, I'm always so nervous about her out in the world. But she's 30, she's an adult, you know, like she she at her age, I had a 12-year-old. Like, that's crazy. And so when maybe she's out on a date or she's out with her friends, and I'll be like, oh, hey, what are you doing? Because we do have location for our kids, but it's more safety for us than anything. Um, I'll be like, Oh, what are you doing up in blah blah blah? And she's like, Oh, I'm with my friend. I'm all okay, talk to you later. And then we leave it at that. Or she um lets me know what when she goes out on a date because she's just started dating again after a long term relationship. And she'll just kind of let me know, hey, by the way, I'm going out on a date. And she'll let my sister in law know who is closer her age. Just so that they know. So we all know, but okay, we're going out on a date. And then like I never really ask her about it, which she usually gets upset about that I'm not asking. But I I feel like that she'll tell me I don't want to intrude.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:15

And that I think is a really important thing when you're talking about narcissistic parents. There's a um the book by Jeanette McCurdy.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:24

Um best book ever, dude. I made so many videos about that book. Yeah, my mom died. Yeah, I'm glad my mom died. Also has a novel out that's really good too. I've seen it. It's totally different, totally different genre, but it's still her. And when I finish, I'm glad my mom died. The first thing I thought was, why isn't this book fucking three times longer? And so I was like, four years can I read her stuff?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:52

She talks about this enmeshment, about like crazy enmeshment that goes on in regards to her and her mom. In regards to like we just went to my um youngest daughter's bar concert, her last one in high school. And I saw I could tell which kids had narcissistic parents based on the way that they were performing. Because you can tell a real performer, but then you can tell where things are performative. And that always is to me a really interesting thing to then watch them go to their parent. I'm like, oh yeah, of course, they're an arc. It's like because you can tell, you can tell by the moment when they see their kids, you can tell by the way their kids are interacting with them. That I think is a really important thing for people to think about because that's your first sign. Like there's a movie called the narcissistic playbook that is coming out, and early adopters get to hear uh or get to watch it in um, I think it's like a week before it gets released. And I think that there is a playbook, it just isn't as clear, but there is a playbook, and there is a moment that all of us where that mask comes off. And I say that because I'm sure you could tell me when that happened for you, and I could tell you when it happened for me, when all of a sudden, like if you were outside in public and she forgot that she was outside in public or she felt comfortable in her space, and that to me is really an important thing for people to like really focus on, you know. For listeners that haven't experienced the kind of love that you and I have experienced in our partners, in your wife and in my husband, what does that emotional consistency look like in practice?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:47

Um, I mean, I I think that it looks like always being them. Again, I I reiterate the separation. Um we get so comfortable with enmeshment on different levels that when we don't have it, we tend to think that it's we tend to think that it's actually a bad thing. Um, and it's not. So I think that um emotional consistency looks like being themselves even when you're not yourself. Um, it means not allowing my wife and I say it all the time, like to each other, if I'm in a bad mood and she's like hyper and all over and everything, and I'll just look at her and be like, Look, I am just recognizing that you are in a great mood and I am not, and neither of us have to change. And I'm like, I'm just recognizing, I'm just putting it out there. Yeah, yeah. Um, because for a long time I would try to change, I would try to be happier, or I would be like angry that she was angry that she wasn't angry with me, you know? Like, um, so I had to separate them. It's a it's about separation, it's about really truly so the one of the very first steps, and kind of like all of my clients go through like this same general beginning rhythm. And it's who am I and how do I love myself? It's like the first two steps, right? Yeah, and so once you figure out who you are, and then you start to love yourself, that's when you start to do that enmeshment separation. Like you you no longer are enmeshing yourself with everyone around you in order for you to feel safe. Um, and that that's a big part of it, but it's it's happening even when it's hard, even when it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:43

Yeah, and I think that that's a really important thing because when you start to heal, it might not feel like you're healing, it might feel like something else because things are getting. I mean, really, let's let's have a real conversation about you went through some really complex trauma, like it was really complex. It is possible that you have CPTSD. It is quite possible, right? And and oftentimes, um, we were just talking about BPD, those get those get diagnosed at the same time or diagnosed one or the other because they they look very similar. Yes. And so I say this because as you are starting to heal, if it doesn't feel quite like you think healing looks like in the movies, it's not going to, let me just say that. It's not gonna be sunshine and rainbows, you know, coming out of your mouth all the time. It's gonna be crying, it's gonna be frustration, it's gonna be uh being upset, understanding why you're upset, and processing it through that. That's all healing. It's all healing to become the person who you are. And I and I think that's really, really important because you were conditioned to be the way that you are you are before your healing process. Because the the abuser, the narcissist, our mothers wanted us to disconnect from who we really were, so that our warning sign that usually would come up of, you know, this is probably not a good idea, don't come up, or if they do, we say, Oh, shh, right. And so excuse me, how do people even begin to reconnect with themselves after experiencing this kind of trauma?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:31

One thing that um a lot of my clients find value in is role-playing different characters and seeing which one their nervous system reacts the best to. Oh, interesting. Pretending like you're somebody who likes fashion. How do you feel? Imagining that you walk into a Louis Vuitton store and you're purchasing all these fancy things and these high-quality, like high-end. Does that feel good? Or does your nervous system feel better when you think about going to volunteer at the local animal shelter? Um, a lot of the times, people who were raised in this way never got to think about experiencing things, let alone actually experiencing it. But the idea of going out and doing it feels so far from who they are. It's like impossible. It's uncomfortable. Um, and so we we often start with like the smallest step. What's the first step? It's not going outside for a one mile run of a 10 mile run. That's not the first step. The first step is finding your fucking shoes. Because if you're like me, you probably left one downstairs and the other one you took off after running up the stairs because you realized you meant taking off the first one, you had to pee. Like, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, so it's the first step. It's it's the very first step. What is that? And and oftentimes it's imagining like, okay, well, if I could be anyone that would be the most comfortable, who is it? And and just like going to a new store, sometimes you have to try on a few different pairs of jeans before you find one that makes your butt look good.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:08

Yeah, exactly. Yes, thank you. I think that's a really important thing. And the and the reason why we do these podcasts is because I'm not everyone's cup of tea, and the person I'm interviewing might be their cup of tea to be their coach. And that I think is a really important thing. You can interview your coaches, you can figure out what works for you. What works for your own. You can't do better.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:32

Yeah, right. Do you first of all, even with a sliding scale, coaching isn't cheap. Okay, we don't have to pretend like it is. So, yes, you need to be interviewing your coach. You need to you need to go to free discovery calls with multiple coaches and figure out which one you showed up and said, I needed this. And then at the end of the session, you actually had it because that's the one you need to go with. And just like you were saying earlier, therapy and coaching, like you might need it now, and then you don't, and then you do again. This coach might be good for you now, and in six months, it's not a good fit anymore. They can just be for the season.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:08

Yeah, exactly. You know, um, we've interviewed a couple therapists that talk about how you can coach and therapy at the same time, which I think is a really thing. There shouldn't be any. It was really interesting. I was in this group, I um admin this group of daughters who have narcissistic mothers. There's like 7,500 women, it's a Facebook group. And so me and three other admins, we don't let anybody do self-promotion because we can't review it, but we put things in a like a newsletter. I'll create a little newsletter monthly, people can put it out. But I will put up my discounts to be like, hey, if anybody wants to do this, you know, just for space. And I did like a holiday one as a result of this is gonna sound crazy, as a result of just helping people out, right? And so this woman like said, How is this different? Why are you saying that you can do trauma? Blah blah blah and I was like, Whoa, like, why are you attacking me? Like, okay, that's fine. And I said, I never said I was a therapist, I never said I was going to fix their traumas. What I said was, this is support. If you want it, we can do it from here to like for the next six weeks for this class because holidays are hard, they're hard. And they are, and we do like I do some stuff on WhatsApp so that it's really easy. So if the person's in the situation, they can like message and I can help them through the process. It's very removed, but also very in it. And so she started ripping on me. And because as Domes of Narcissistic Mothers, we have a high sense of justice. Um, my fellow admin, who I love to death, would like we would have never ever been friends outside of this. Not because she's not lovely, just because we don't have anything in common. And she's like, I saw that lady do that to you. I kicked her from the group. I was like, okay, this is where it gets interesting. So this one woman messages me. It's not the same woman. This one woman messages me on Facebook and says, Hey, I see that you're part of this group and you posted something, but then you're not, you can't be a part of the group. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was something where like receipts were really easy to pull up. And so I said, Okay, um, who are you? And what group are you talking about? She's all, oh, it was this group. And then she's all, oh, never mind. I was all okay, you're not gonna gaslight me. The group, other group was it another like recovering from a narcissistic mom group. So I was really surprised that this woman did this. I said, Are you are you reaching out to me based on this post? I said, another admin decided to remove her from the group because this isn't her first infraction. She's done this to other people, she's been mean and rude to other people, and we just don't do that. Like ours is always like um be nice or be kind, and if you feel like you can't, scroll on by, like, shut the fuck up and scroll by, right? And so yeah, she tried to act like I was doing something in another group and act like I was the problem. And I was like, okay, but if you look here, like scroll up in our conversation. This is not the first time you and I have talked. I talked to you about um this other thing that I was doing. I asked if I could post in the group because it says no self-promotion. And I wanted to ask, hey, do one of you want to put this up? And you said, you know, that might be a self-promotion. I said, Cool, awesome. I'm not gonna do that then. I'm not gonna break the rules. And she was like, Oh, well, and then she blocked me. This person who was trying to call me out for something else that didn't happen that I had the receipts on. I was like, did this bitch just gaslight me and block me? Like, really, okay. And I think these are some of the things that you know really get really get amplified as you we start to do the work, right? Where we start to see where gaslighting comes into effect, where we start to see the flying monkeys, or we start to see like the narcissism like really fall differently. And if you see it, welcome to the club, and you're never gonna unsee it. Yeah, that is the thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:28

Yeah, and you know, we've used some terms in here that I think most people would know, but not everyone, and I don't like to assume. So let's do that. Gaslighting, that's that's where someone tries to change your perception of your reality for their benefit, right? Yes. So you say you hurt my feelings because you did blah blah blah, and they say, No, I didn't. You just took it that way, and you hurt my feelings because you did blah blah blah. That's a shout out to my grandfather, by the way. Hey, Pat. Um, that's gaslighting, okay? Oh my god. Oh my god. Flying monkey, right? A flying monkey is somebody who is unintentionally, they do not usually know that they are doing this. It is actually a form of abuse. So they are being abused, but they don't realize it. And what they usually do is the dirty word for the narcissist. Yeah, they say things, they spread things, they might come to you and say you just need to forgive her and move on. It's been long enough. That's a shout out to my sister. Hey, girl. Um, so that's a flying monkey. Yes. Um, and then I and then the other one we've said a lot or that I want to point out is triangulation. Can we talk about that? Yes, let's talk about triangle. Triangulation is when somebody comes to you and gets you to turn on the other person and also be a part of it. Um, this happens when your let's say mother goes to your sister and starts telling her how she needs to step up and say this to you and tell you to do this and tell you to forgive her because it's been long enough.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:11

Yeah, yes. She thinks this about you and blah blah blah. She mean girls.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:15

To get you to like, yeah, yeah, it's to get you to fight and to take their side. So it's like it's it's like a double whammy kind of. Um, and so that again, another form of abuse. So if someone is using you for triangulation, that you're actually being abused by this is emotional and um psychological manipulation and abuse. So just be aware of that. Um and telling somebody, hey, you're you're being a flying monkey is not gonna work. So just hold your breath.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:47

They don't, they don't, they don't know. No, they don't understand because they number one, oftentimes the narcissist will pick someone who thinks that will create a flying monkey that has low self-esteem and wants to like be, you know, this amazing person. So if you're like, oh, you're just a flying monkey, they've already inserted this, all this pump them up full of like that they're special, that they're never gonna listen to you. So the best thing you can do is step out of the situation and just say, Boundaries, okay, yeah, and yeah, and block them. Block them if it if they're on you know social media, block them if they're on your phone, block them, don't answer the phone call. If they show up at your house, say, you know, no, thank you. Yeah, sell somewhere else because they don't understand it. And the best thing you could do to save them is just push it away.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:36

Yeah, it goes back to what you were saying at the beginning, like that it's their battle. This is their task, they have to figure it out, they have to see it. Um, and you know, I only believe in stepping in if it involves a child. If it involves a child, you step in because a child is not responsible for seeing these things, they need the outside.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:55

They don't have the tools, they don't have the tools or the life lessons.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:59

If it's another adult, you just have to let it take its course because just like you weren't gonna wake up any sooner than you did, they aren't going to either. And all it does is create more of a riff in your relationship and more stress and anxiety for you. And right now you're in a position where you need to be focused on your healing and your growth and your safety.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:19

Well, and I think another thing, like, and I take take this from the AA model because I've had people in my life who have come to me because one of the steps is to say sorry, right? And I think that as people are coming out of the haze of the flying monkey haze, you know, and saying, I'm not gonna be your flying monkey anymore if that does happen. And they come to you because they should come to you and say sorry. Like I think that's something that's really important that they do. This is not the time for you to kick them when they're down. Like to say, I appreciate you saying sorry. And at some point we can have a discussion about how that's hurt me. And I know that you're hurt and you're going through your process. So I'm so proud of you for understanding come back to me when you want to chat. That's a really, really important thing, you know, for a lot of people. And you know, one thing I want to say about triangulation is it is so sinister, so sinister, because oftentimes it happens with siblings in smear campaigns, in smear campaigns. And I will say, like, going back to the narcissists, they're like a piece of shit if they're gonna use you know your own blood or DNA. Like I saw that happen with my mom at my grandpa's funeral. Man, she had a whole smear campaign, every single person, not her family, by the way, my husband my dad's family, because my mom immigrated from the Philippines and they became her like family here. Of course, because she was married to my dad, but she literally went to every single one of my grandpa's um sisters and talked shit about me. Every one of my grandma, my grandpa's nieces and nephews, and talked shit about me. And I was like, what the hell is she doing? Like, they literally saw me get up, speak about my grandpa, all those things, and and she's there talking shit about me. I I was like, okay, I'm peaceing out. This is you know, no more. I'm no more of this. So I want to close. I've been starting to close with two things. I always ask one question that's the same, but I've been doing a a speed round of questions. It's called trauma and cheese made. Cheese is gossip for all of you who don't speak Spanish. It is the most important word that you will need to know. Cheese, the gossip, right? So trauma and cheese may all right. Um, so tell me what music instantly hypes you up? Anything heavy metal, as long as it's screaming at me. I love it. Um, something small that instantly makes your day better.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:00

When my son tells me that he's proud of me.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:03

Oh, I'm gonna cry. What is your comfort show, our food, our comfort thing that you like?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:10

Okay, so if it's bedtime, my we watch um guys' grocery games every night. I love cooking. Um, if it's like during the day, right now it's reruns of Hannah Montana.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:22

I love that. I love it. I love it. Which, if I could get uh Miley Cyrus on the show, that would be amazing. She probably has some shit to say. I would that is cheese made right there. Yes. What's something about healing that people don't talk about enough?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:41

You're responsible for it, nobody else is, and you have to stop playing the victim before you can start healing.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:47

Um what's one thing you hope listeners take away from this conversation today?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:52

You have the power, they do not. You just have to decide to start fucking using it.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:57

I love it. Thank you so much. I've so utterly enjoyed this conversation. Yeah, and we will have to have you back on again in a year or so, see how things are going. And I want to do like a whole like round table of women healing from narcissistic mothers because I think that would be a super cool thing. So thank you. Um, and we will be in touch soon. If you were raised by a narcissistic mother, remember what Lena said today. You have the power, they do not. Healing is learning to trust yourself, untangling what you were taught to survive, and building a life where you can finally decide who you are. Thank you, Lena, for joining us today. Thank you for listening to the Beyond Mommy Dares podcast. If this episode resonated with you, please subscribe to the podcast, leave a five-star review, and share it with someone who could use a little hope today. To learn more about coaching, upcoming events, and our growing community, visit the links in the show notes. Until next time, keep choosing yourself, keep healing, and remember, you are worthy of love, peace, and a life beyond survival.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:11

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