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The MTPConnect Podcast
The MTPConnect Podcast Series connects with the people and the issues behind Australia’s growing medical technologies, biotechnologies and pharmaceuticals sector.
The MTPConnect Podcast
Exploring the Australian Stroke and Heart Accelerator’s High Potential Research Portfolio
The Australian Stroke and Heart Research Accelerator, established through MTPConnect’s Targeted Translation Research Accelerator for cardiovascular disease and diabetes on behalf the Medical Research Future Fund, is a research centre with a bold vision to deliver new health outcomes in coronary artery disease, heart failure and stroke.
Through clinical impact and entrepreneurship, an Australian wide network of academics, institutions, and industry partners are driving a high potential research portfolio and an education and training program with a commercialisation focus.
We talk to stroke and heart research experts Professor Geoffrey Donnan AO and Professor Jason Kovacic about the Centre’s groundbreaking work covering various pipeline projects, including BiVACOR’s Total Artificial Heart, advanced tele-robotic thrombectomy technologies and a national research clinical trials register, all aimed at improving health outcomes for Australians.
Joining host Caroline Duell is Lauren Kelly, MTPConnect’s Senior Director, Targeted Translation Research Accelerator (TTRA) for diabetes and cardiovascular disease.
This is the MTP Connect podcast. Join us as we connect you with the people behind the life-saving innovations driving Australia's growing life sciences sector from bench to bedside for better health and wellbeing. Mtp Connect acknowledges the traditional owners of country that this podcast is recorded on and recognises that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples are Australia's first storytellers and the holders of first science knowledge.
Caroline Duell:Welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline Duell. The Australian Stroke and Heart Research Accelerator is a research centre with a bold vision to transform the field of cardiovascular research and deliver new health outcomes in coronary artery disease, heart failure and stroke Through clinical impact and entrepreneurship. An Australian-wide network of academics, institutions and industry partners are driving a high potential research portfolio and an education and training program. The Accelerator was established through MTP Connect's Targeted Translation Research Accelerator for Cardiovascular Disease and Diabetes on behalf of the Medical Research Future Fund. Joining us to talk about the Australian Stroke and Heart Research Accelerator, or ASHRA, is Professor Geoffrey Donnan in Melbourne and Professor Jason Kovacic in Sydney. My co-host today is Lauren Kelly, Director of MTP Connect's TTRA program. Welcome to the podcast, Geoff, Jason and Lauren. Thanks for having us.
Prof Jason Kovacic :Thanks for having us here. It's really great to have the opportunity to do this. I'd like to start my bit by just acknowledging country and saying that, on behalf of all of ASHRA, we acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people of our great nation and pay our respects to Elders, past, present and emerging.
Prof Geoff Donnan AO:I would endorse that entirely From where I am from, Wurundjeri, Country of the Kulin nation, and in Victoria we're still embarking upon a treaty. So I think we're in for optimistic times.
Caroline Duell:We're going to talk today about the Australian Stroke and Heart Research Accelerator and I'm interested to know from you both, Jeff and Jason, the unmet needs that the Research Accelerator is focusing on From the stroke world.
Prof Geoff Donnan AO:from the ASHRA point of view, we're really focusing on the pre-hospital arena, and the incredible unmet need here is that for stroke and it applies to heart, it applies to many, many diseases, but particularly acute vascular diseases the disparity and availability to modern interventions across the nation is terrible, in that what we are lucky enough to have in metropolitan Australia is almost completely lacking in rural and remote Australia, where about a third of our population lives. And so by bringing the hospital to the patient, if I could put it that way, we are overcoming this in metropolitan areas, but in remote areas, as you can imagine, doing that is fraught with difficulty. So that's the huge unmet need we're focusing on with the stroke component of ASHRA.
Caroline Duell:And obviously with stroke as well any stroke treatment we know that time is of the essence, so this is absolutely critical if we're going to change health outcomes for Australians.
Prof Geoff Donnan AO:Absolutely, Caroline. And we don't use the mantra time is brain lightly, because every second counts and every minute, in fact every minute, we're losing over 2 billion neurons. So imagine we don't want to be doing that.
Caroline Duell:Jason, over to you on the cardiovascular side of things.
Prof Jason Kovacic :Yeah, I think the unmet need is enormous. I mean, we still know that cardiovascular disease is the number one killer in our country and, interestingly, even the number two killer, which is actually dementia. Dementia has cardiovascular disease as one of its major drivers and cardiovascular disease accounts for 25 to 30 percent of dementia. So it's a huge burden of disease in our country and, uh, you know, our approach to cardiovascular disease still has a long way to go. We've got, you know, for example, national screening programs around breast cancer and other conditions and, as a number one killer, we don't yet even have a national screening program around cv. So there's a huge problem In terms, specifically, of ASHRA.
Prof Jason Kovacic :The remit of ASHRA is really to drive the acceleration of research, translation and research impact, both from high-end and technical devices, but also to the community and the greater population, and make sure we're serving the needs of all Australians, including Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. So we do have a portfolio of very exciting projects that ASHRA is driving right across the spectrum of cardiovascular disease. That spans from heart failure heart attack, digital health innovations, clinical trials, potential new drug therapies and more, from heart failure heart attack, digital health innovations, clinical trials, potential new drug therapies and more, and these are obviously targeting different disease areas, different stages of evolution of the translational journey. And what's great about ASHRA is it's not necessarily trying to drive every project to clinical implementation. It's just aiming to help a project go from one part of a pipeline along to the next. So it might be A to B, it might be M to N or it might be X to Y, but it's along that whole journey of translation.
Caroline Duell:And this type of focus has not been done in Australia before. This is really a first go at this.
Prof Jason Kovacic :Yeah, absolutely, and full credit to MTP Connect for, you know, conceiving of this program. I think it really is an unmet need and Australia is great at clinical trials, we're great at interventions. But that gap in translation is where we really struggle and that's for a whole range of reasons. We don't have the depth, for example, of really large industry partners in Australia like they do in the US and Europe and Australia has CSL, for example but we don't have a lot of other major industry players biopharmaceutical and tech companies at our doorstep. So it makes it harder. And ASHRA, is aimed at picking up some of that translational challenge that we have in Australia and trying to help across the sector.
Prof Geoff Donnan AO:I think the term accelerator is perfect for our program because, as you were saying, carolyn, the ability to do this elsewhere, as we're doing it, is pretty limited. So our program in terms of accelerating, as Jason was saying, from A to B or X to Y, depending where you are on the spectrum, is fairly unique. We admit that a lot of these projects would chug along if ASHRA didn't exist, but they might A chug along so slowly they've just been overtaken and become irrelevant. Or B a huge competitive advantage both in Australia and globally would be lost. So accelerator places us perfectly as to what we're all about.
Caroline Duell:And for those that don't know, ashrae or the Australian Stroke and Heart Research Accelerator. You're like a massive Australian network where anyone and everyone that's involved in research translation, universities, medical research institutes have all sort of come together to really put their efforts behind a number of different research projects and some other things like training programs and things.
Prof Geoff Donnan AO:Yes, I think Jason will expand on it even better than I. But the ability to bring groups together, as you've said, universities, research institutes, clinical trials organisations, et cetera, clinical trials organisations, etc. Etc. With a common vision and mission in mind, is quite unique, and collaboration is everything about getting things done, isn't it? Through these mechanisms we're going to be able to get much more done than we would have ever been able to do with working, say, one or two of us, or even three of us, but having a dozen, two dozen, with a common purpose really energises and turbocharges the whole vision we hold.
Prof Jason Kovacic :I'd just add that ASHRA we certainly don't have every absolute key stakeholder in the sector under the core investigative group of ASHRA, but what we do have with ASHRA is a broad representation of all the key elements that are relevant to the sector and we've really made it our business to be as inclusive as possible across the sector. So even for the key, for major stakeholders that aren't necessarily core partners of ASHRA, we've tried very hard to bring them in to support their projects, to have them engaged at our meetings and conferences and so on. So we have really tried to bring the whole sector together, to bring the whole sector together and indeed cover a cross-spectrum of research projects that speak to the whole need of the disease burden in our country.
Lauren Kelly:So, jason and Geoff, you've both spoken to, I guess, the breadth of work that's being undertaken within ASHRA and you've spoken to the commercialisation-focused projects, but also the health equity work that you're doing within ASHRA as well, obviously all with the aim of having enormous impact for people living with coronary artery disease, heart failure, stroke. So how about we sort of take a little bit of a deeper dive now on a number of the projects within the ASHA portfolio? So you've got an exciting partnership with a commercial company, bivercore, and the cutting edge research that they're undertaking with the development of a total artificial heart. So, jason, could you speak to the partnership that you've built with Bivercore and the work that you're actually undertaking with them here in Australia?
Prof Jason Kovacic :Yeah, thanks, lauren. It is a particularly exciting project with Bivercore and particularly timely. As I think many of the listeners will be aware, the first few Bivercores have now been implanted mostly in the US and they've actually gone very well and we're thrilled about that. In full disclosure, the partnership between Bivacor and ASHRA had little, if anything to do with those first initial implants and the Bivacor evolution of their total artificial heart has been a lifelong journey for their CEO, daniel Timms, and it's a wonderful story how Daniel's father was suffering from heart failure and they were desperately trying. Daniel was desperately trying to conceive and develop this title artificial heart for his father Didn't make it. It was a long, long process to develop a product like this, obviously, but he's now got there. I think he was sleeping on sofas and doing all sorts of things to try and make it work and it's it's a real, you know, hard luck, dream come true story, uh, for Daniel.
Prof Jason Kovacic :So we've with with the ashra partnership. It's really about taking one of our key physicians here at the victor chain cardiac research institute in st vincent's hospital, sydney, which is Chris Haywood. Chris has been really leading the charge with Bivacor at St Vincent's, certainly in one of the keys in Australia. Chris has a longstanding relationship with Bivacor. Chris's work was really about trying to optimize how to implant the device, trying to optimize some of the plumbing and the connections, trying to develop the training rig to help surgeons learn to train in planning the device.
Prof Jason Kovacic :So the partnership and the project of work between ASHRA and Bivacor really revolved around those aspects of the tidal artificial heart and that work has actually gone really well and has led to some changes into developments that I'm sure will become part of the way as BiVACOR device gets rolled out to broader implantation at more and more centres. Some of the fruits of this partnership with Astra will come to play there. So I think it's really exciting and, as I I said, the device has been implanted now into humans. That was done just a couple of months ago in Texas and it's just been met with just such amazing excitement around the world for the opportunity that opens up, which is really to actually provide another option for patients suffering from end-stage heart failure.
Prof Geoff Donnan AO:It's interesting that that story which is about an Australian who has his father was a plumber. I think Jason was the story. It just highlights the need for accelerators like ASHRA and more to develop all of these things onshore rather than being forced to go offshore where we've got better access to venture capital money particularly. But what we want to do is to encourage this sort of thing to be able to be developed entirely in Australia and then exported, because then of course there's greater benefit for Australians both in terms of health outcomes earlier and commercial benefits later.
Lauren Kelly:It's incredibly right, jeff, and I guess it's a really important role though that ASHRA is playing with this particular project in helping better understand and informing the clinical workflow for the total artificial heart and the implementation of that through those surgical processes. So it's exciting work to be done. Another project maybe over to you, jeff, that we'd like to take a closer look at is a world first a remote tele-robotic endovascular thrombectomy technology, and maybe you can break that down a little bit more for our listeners.
Prof Geoff Donnan AO:Yes, thanks, lauren. Saying in our opening comments, one of the huge problems we have in Australia as a massive continent is the lack of access that rural and remote people have to modern interventions, and one of the great modern interventions is thrombectomy for large vessel occlusion in acute ischemic stroke. And by that I mean what happens is within minutes or hours of someone developing a stroke due to a clot in a large blood vessel. If you can get to the right centre, you can put a catheter up through the femoral artery in the groin and basically drag the clot out, and the remarkable results that you see with this are astonishing. And people who are densely hemiplegic and may have a life ahead of them of severe, very severe disability basically get up and walk home.
Prof Geoff Donnan AO:And in terms of the effectiveness of this therapy, the so-called number needed to treat, that is, to benefit one person, is two to three and that's in the order of the same, very similar to, say, penicillin with pneumonia. So to put it in perspective as to how important this technology is, now it can't be implemented in remote and rural Australia. They just aren't the facilities or the staff. So we're overcoming it by a telerobotic approach and we've been working with a number of companies we're ending up with, mainly the Remedy Company, which is CEOed by an Australian who's got an office here in Melbourne as well and a bit above the core story. But we are to be the template for the rollout of the entire program in an exemplary way across the country so that we can demonstrate to the world that by having a centre and remotely controlling the robotic thrombectomy in, say, alice Springs or Darwin where we're lining things up, others around the world will see how effective it is in this sort of environment. So very, very exciting stuff.
Lauren Kelly:Yeah, and really impactful. So when do you anticipate to be getting underway with this work?
Prof Geoff Donnan AO:We've been doing work with silicon models because you must get it right before you do it with the humans, et cetera and we've demonstrated with these silicon models that it's extremely effective and safe and could be done remotely. And we'll be doing our first in human studies here early next year.
Lauren Kelly:Excellent. Look forward to hearing about the outcomes of those and you have other stroke work that you're doing within ASHRA. Would you like to share some more about the other project that you're working on?
Prof Geoff Donnan AO:Yes, another disruptive approach I mentioned the concept broad concept is we're in the pre-hospital area, taking the hospital to the patient, because, as we're saying, the every second and minute counts and the key step in stroke management is that you must have an image to be able to make a diagnosis, because 80% of strokes are due to the occlusion of a blood vessel and 20%, totally conversely, are due to a bleed, a burst blood vessel.
Prof Geoff Donnan AO:You'd imagine that the approaches to managing each of these is just totally different. So you must have that image, and the problem is the image that we access are either CT scans or MRI scans, which are in large hospitals and they usually weigh two or three tons and they usually cost two or three million dollars. So what we're doing is working on developing ultra-lightweight imaging which we can put in mobile stroke ambulances and also in air ambulances. And the one we're working on, particularly for ASHRA, is an ultra-lightweight scan which we're developing with the Volumio company in Wellington, new Zealand, and we're just about to start our first clinical trials here, first in world, here in Melbourne.
Lauren Kelly:That is incredibly exciting and so thrilling to hear that Australia really is on the cutting edge and at the forefront of this sort of work being undertaken in the world, with Global Firsts as part of this initiative and Hal Rice and Leticia de Villiers from Gold Coast Re, the telerobotic initiative, very important.
Prof Geoff Donnan AO:As you said, it's multidisciplinary and they're very much part of this whole endeavour.
Lauren Kelly:And Jason, we've heard a lot about the medical devices and tech that ASHRA is supporting, but you also have other types of projects that ASHRA progresses. You have the Join Us Research Register. Could you tell us a little bit more about what that entails?
Prof Jason Kovacic :So Join Us is a research register that's led by Professor Bruce Neil from the George Institute for Global Health, but I can speak to it because one of the sites for Join Us is St Vincent's Hospital, where I'm a senior physician and I'm actually the site lead for Join Us at St Vincent's Hospital. So, as I've already said, you know, cardiovascular disease is one of the main drivers of death in our country and morbidity and one of the challenges we have in Australia is that every time we want to do a clinical trial we spend so much time, effort and resource in recruiting the patients into those clinical trials. And Join Us is really set up to get people to sign up to basically to some extent agree to be contacted and potentially participate in clinical trials. And the Join Us project is actually aiming to enrol up to about 30,000 individuals with cardiovascular disease into the research register and that register will streamline recruitment processes for future cardiovascular trials that have ethics committee approval. So the Join Us platform is actually already operational.
Prof Jason Kovacic :As I said, I'm the site lead here at St Vincent's and it's able to scale to accommodate this new initiative and partnership with ASHRA. So implementation still involves government approvals and recruiting and training local research staff, but by having 30,000 people that have actually joined up to Join join us. When we have a clinical trial that needs to roll out, that clinical trial can come to join us and then actually go out to the 30,000 participants and ask simply who's interested in being in this trial or that trial or whatever it might be. So it should actually streamline clinical trial enrolment, reduce the amount of time and effort and money that's actually wasted every time we set up a clinical trial and ultimately I will enable us to do better quality trials more efficiently and for less cost. So I think it's really important, an important initiative, and that's why I personally have actually been supporting Join Us for a couple of years now and I think ASHRA was only too enthusiastic to get behind it and support it.
Lauren Kelly:Yeah, absolutely A really critical aspect of facilitating clinical trials. Of course, the participants' involvement Join Us. Is this a national register?
Prof Jason Kovacic :Absolutely. Join Us is a national register and it's conceived to enhance the efficiency of recruiting patients with cardiovascular disease right across Australia. With this large sort of ready to invite cohort of people with cardiovascular disease, to increase the pace of research.
Prof Geoff Donnan AO:I think this is an incredibly important initiative for both heart disease and stroke. I was going to ask Jason whether there are any similar cohorts around the world, or are we one of the first to have an initiative like this?
Prof Jason Kovacic :No, there are actually initiatives like this in other countries that are all similar, but they're different in their own way, so this is something that's going on internationally. So it's important for us to do this to maintain our competitive edge and make this an attractive destination for national and international clinical research, and I think that also then has economic benefits and employment benefits to the country.
Lauren Kelly:And is Join Us open to anybody who would like to join.
Prof Jason Kovacic :Yeah, great question. So anyone can actually just Google Join Us or Bing, whatever you're using, put in Join Us and it'll come up with the relevant website. It's very easy to click through and sign up and give some basic details. Obviously, when you join, the registry is interested in knowing age and demographics, sex and a few other things, and what type of cardiovascular disease indeed patients may have that are motivating them to join up. But it's very easy to find and to navigate to the website and actually join us.
Caroline Duell:So you're working with a lot of research teams all around the country. Aside from the funding that ASHRA is providing for these projects, what are some of the other ways that the ASHRA team are supporting these research projects?
Prof Jason Kovacic :Maybe I can lead off and say that one of the key things that ASHRA has also done has been education across the sector of both senior investigators but also up and coming in, junior investigators. So one of the you know, one of the inherent challenges in this and it's not unique to Australia is that, you know, researchers train as researchers, and if physician researchers train as physician researchers, we're not actually trained in as physician researchers. We're not actually trained in translation and how you actually translate a discovery, and it can often take, you know, a decade or more of dedicated research to actually come up with something that's actually patentable or, you know, clinically implementable, and so people are often into their mid-careers before suddenly they actually need to translate something. So ASHRA has done a lot of work in terms of symposia, of satellite meetings, of training workshops, of educational seminars and forums. We have a dedicated education and training committee and we've had multiple, multiple meetings, training workshops, lectures and so on, just about how do you commercialize and dealing with different aspects of that from legal aspects and how and when do you file for patent, how and when do you bring in industry partners and all of those multifaceted things that need to be thought about for translation. So that's just one example of the additional things that ASE is doing in this space.
Prof Jason Kovacic :I think everyone appreciates that. You know, researchers have not been trained in translation, but it's never too late to learn, and each project is different. I think this is another key lesson that's come out of ASHRA is that every project has its nuances and differences and its own specific challenges, and so what might be relevant to one project is completely irrelevant, and another project needs to know about something else, and you know one might need to know about how do you roll out a clinical trial in a rural and remote area. Another one might have challenges related to legal contracts and IP. You know both critical elements of translation, but obviously wildly different. So ASHRA can and does cover off that full spectrum of relevancy to translation. You know both critical elements of translation, but obviously wildly different. So Ashford can and does cover off that full spectrum of relevancy to translation.
Caroline Duell:I'm going to put this very sort of broad question to you. There's been lots of debate about whether you know Australia's great at research but not so good at translation. But perhaps we are doing well with translation. But you know there are some gaps. Can sort of talk ourselves down all the time, but maybe we need to be talking ourselves up. What do you think about that?
Prof Geoff Donnan AO:perhaps, if I start off, I couldn't agree more, carolyn. I think we we do underestimate our abilities as as as a nation. Uh, getting back to what we were saying before about the requirements, and I think we do need to be out and about a lot more than we are. And that pitch session is exactly designed to help particularly young investigators understand how to approach various groups, venture capitalists particularly, but also almost any presentation you do. It's the old lift conversation, isn't it? If you haven't persuaded someone by the time you get to the eighth floor, you've got a problem. And I think teaching young people the essence of delivery and getting the message across in a very, very brief period of time is part of that very concept of lifting our horizons as to what we can do as Australians, and particularly among our younger colleagues.
Lauren Kelly:I agree, and it's not just the commercial side of things. You need to understand how to how to pitch to government, how to pitch to health funds, how to pitch to all the different buyers and payers of products to truly enable that implementation. So it's great that ASHA is doing that.
Prof Geoff Donnan AO:It's interesting having, I'm sure, jason's in the same category. I edited a stroke journal for many years and I saw during that period I think it was about 13 years I was editor and the change in the requirements of how to present papers, which is a reflection of the same sort of need to promulgate ideas, has been quite dramatic. And just say, for example, the abstract has to be so much crisper than we used to do. It has to be so much crisper than we used to do. It has to be. To communicate, uh, crisply and efficiently has become a part of our mantra and we must do this in in an age where things are moving faster than ever before do you have anything to add up to that jason?
Prof Jason Kovacic :no, I'd agree. I mean, I think the landscape's constantly changing. And look um, research, as Jeff was saying, publications, getting you know there's more, there's greater expectations when publishing, there's greater expectations across the whole research sector and I think that's something that that includes translation, for example, research reporting, data handling, governance. You know the need for robust data handling, secure data handling, and you know, in Indigenous research it's even more critical. So I think the landscape is constantly evolving and I do think you know, with the many partners in ASHRA that cover off different elements of research and translation, we're well positioned to actually advise and be the sort of lead for the nation on this.
Prof Jason Kovacic :And I think it's important to go back to where we started and to say that ASHA was conceived not with every player in the sector, but with key elements that cover the whole sector. So ASHA includes, for example, the George Institute, which really focuses on large-scale clinical trials, and it also includes the Victor Chan Cardiac Research Institute, which is traditionally more about molecules and mechanisms in the beginning of the discovery pipeline. University of Sydney and Monash and the Heart Hospital are also key partners which fall somewhere in the middle, but also the Heart Hospital in Victoria has a huge emphasis on patient care. So we do have the full spectrum and I think that also speaks to the full spectrum of all the elements that are needed for translation.
Caroline Duell:I'm interested to know working with industry, do you think that that area has become easier, more possible? Is there more collaborations in this space than there have been?
Prof Jason Kovacic :I think it's always been appreciated that industry needs physician scientists and researchers working with them. But I think we are getting more acutely aware across the sector of the real need to work together because nothing gets translated in a vacuum and we need to lean on each other. So I do think those you know the relationships are getting stronger and I think particularly I mean it's the whole purpose of ASHRA is to facilitate those translations and I think we're very acutely aware that we need to work with industry for a whole range of reasons. I mean it makes logical sense on every level to facilitate the research journey and translation that we work hand in glove. So I think it's always been there. But I think we're doubling down on those relationships and trying to really streamline those processes and pathways and learn better ways of working together.
Lauren Kelly:So, Jeff and Jason, can you talk us through the vision of what's next for ASHRA on the research and translation front?
Prof Jason Kovacic :I think the MTP Connect has been a wonderful partner for ASHRA and I believe we've been a wonderful partner for MTP Connect because we're certainly very, very actively looking to the future of ASHRA and we sort of call it ASHRA 2.0 amongst us. But we've been planning for that. We've learned so much along the way and we're very keen for all of those learnings and everything we've done and all the I think the partners we've made, the network we've created, all of that should continue and continue strongly. So we're very excited about exactly how our ASHRA 2.0 rolls out. We've got, I think, a very good broad sense of that, but we need to just work out the details and finalise and action.
Prof Geoff Donnan AO:Yes, I agree, jason. It's all about sustainability as the next stage, because I think the idea behind these accelerators, I think, is an extremely good one, and to see them sort of wilt and die would be a travesty. So I think it behoves us, as we are trying to do, to develop mechanisms for ongoing activity for the ASHRA concept, and I think we'll do that.
Caroline Duell:Yeah, so the Research Centre has been funded through the Medical Research Future Fund, which is an incredible initiative for health research and translation in Australia, and MTP Connected delivered a number of programs on behalf of the MRF. So it's great to, I guess, be at this point now I think it's three years in ASHRA into this new model of accelerating research into these critical health needs, and we're definitely going to be watching to see what comes next for ASHRA.
Prof Jason Kovacic :We look forward to talking with you all about it.
Caroline Duell:It's been a real privilege to talk with you today about just a couple of research projects, because there are many more that we haven't had a chance to sort of dig deeper on, so we really appreciate it. That was Professor Geoffrey Donnan and Professor Jason Kovachik from the Australian Stroke and Heart Research Accelerator. You've been listening to the MTP Connect podcast. This podcast is produced on the lands of the Wurundjeri people here in Narm, melbourne. Thanks for listening to the show. If you love what you heard, share our podcast and follow us for more. Until next time.
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