Episode 10: Chapter 2 —How to Listen

In this opening episode of Chapter 2, host Matt Levinger brings together the team behind the project to reflect on their journey so far and where they believe they should go next. Through personal stories from multiple continents, cultures, and backgrounds, this episode explores why listening is more than a skill; it is a method and a path toward rebuilding trust and mutual respect. As the podcast expands beyond interviewing experts to include voices from all walks of life, this conversation sets the stage for a more open, curious, and grounded exploration of America's story—one that asks: what becomes possible if we start truly listening to one another?

Host: Matthew Levinger – Host of the America’s Why Podcast and Professor of Practice of International Affairs at the George Washington University.

Guest

Seda Guneş – Project Manager.
Amy McCampbell – Creative Director.
Jason Bogovich – International Correspondent.
Lakshmi Dev – Digital Media Manager.
Blake Nicholas – Correspondent.

Visit our website to learn more about the America’s Why Project and join the conversation: americaswhyproject.com

Listen on: Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Amazon Music

The views expressed in the podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent those held by the America's Why Project team or the George Washington University. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I believe peace start with listening each other because we live in these words and we need to communicate even if we disagree.

SPEAKER_06 0:23

Welcome to the America's Why Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

Hello, I'm your host, Matt Levenger. Today we are starting a new chapter in the America's Why Podcast. In our first chapter over the past two months, we've explored the topic Rediscovering America's Why at a moment of turmoil and political polarization in the United States. Today's episode marks the start of chapter two on the topic how to listen. The episodes in this chapter will bring in the other members of our podcast team to interview a wider range of guests, not just experts on politics and foreign policy, but also a customer service representative on a hospital consumer complaints line, sightseers on the San Diego pier, college undergraduates working multiple jobs to make ends meet, and a host of others. In late March 2026, I gathered our podcast team to reflect on three questions. What drew you to the America's Why Project in the first place? What have you learned so far? And where do you think the project should go next? The first person to answer was Lakshmi Dev, our digital media manager. Lakshmi is from Chicago. As a first-year undergraduate at the George Washington University, she is the youngest member of our team.

SPEAKER_04 1:52

I think what drew me to the project in initially was kind of my background as an American. I'm an immigrant. I moved to America when I was in the second grade. And growing up here as a child, the idea of being American was always something I observed and tried to understand. Kind of in elementary school, we'd say the Pledge of Allegiance every day, sing the national anthem, and it would kind of stir feelings I didn't fully have the words for back then. And now having grown up more, and also my parents and I got our citizenship last year. So that's what I really liked about the project when you first pitched it to me back in like September is how it explores this question of America's why. And um kind of up till now we've drawn on the perspectives of a lot of experts, and now we're moving into kind of everyday people's voices. I think hearing those stories will not only help me gain a better understanding, but also grow up kind of my own ideas of what it means to belong and contribute as an American.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

Lakshmi, that's such a moving story, and I'm so happy to hear about your recent acquisition of American citizenship that you must be very proud.

SPEAKER_04 3:15

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 3:32

Where do you think we should be going as a team as we explore this question uh of how American identity can either help us solve problems together or stand in the way of those efforts? And what do you see as the ultimate goals of this enterprise?

SPEAKER_04 3:55

There are great ways to organize what we're putting out there, but um kind of allowing us it to be still a more open project where um we're not putting ourselves in any boxes where certain topics become untouchable. And in terms of the ultimate goal, I think it isn't something that I can define by myself. I mean, there's so many people contributing to the project, so many people who listen to it. The goal should be something that we develop together. I think um it's we can all we all contribute to the project right now in so many different ways. It's a joint effort, and the goal should also be something that's put together in in a joint way.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

Thanks so much, Lakshmi. We've got online uh uh five of our team members, Seda Gunash, who is really the uh original designer of the whole concept of this podcast. Uh Seda and I started talking way back in I don't know, May, June of uh of uh 2025, and we've been working together on this idea ever since. And then the next uh two people to come on board were Amy McCampill uh and uh and uh Jason Bogovich. Uh Amy is a recent graduate of the Security Policy Studies program at uh the George Washington University, Ezeta, and Jason is studying uh for a mid-career master's degree, the Master of International Policy and Practice degree, and he lives in Manila in the Philippines. Uh Blake has uh just recently graduated from Occidental College out in California and uh worked with me uh as a research assistant a couple of summers ago. So it's a it's a fabulous group of colleagues and really inspiring to me. So let me start by asking each of you a little bit about your own thoughts on the two questions that I asked Lakshmi. What drew you to the project in the first place and what have you learned so far? Amy?

SPEAKER_05 6:15

I really what drew me to the podcast in the beginning was just the open micness of this whole project, wherein we're encouraging all kinds of people, and not just a specific line of expertise, to come to the table and talk about where we are right now. I personally am an extrovert, I really love meeting new people, and I really, really enjoy getting to learn new things. And so the prospects of getting to work on a podcast that essentially does just that inviting people to the table, getting to know their story, getting to learn what they know was really, really cool to me. And what I've learned so far, honestly, just the diverse array of expertise that we've managed to bring in and the nuance to storytelling in particular has been an amazing experience for me. I've loved getting to listen to these conversations, especially when we have all of these different voices who come together at the same time and have this kind of civil discussion while at the same time, maybe sometimes not really uh agreeing with each other. There was a point in one of our uh hosts, remind me who it was. They were like agreeable ways to disagree. I really, really enjoyed getting to see that play out live uh in person and uh over a podcast rather than seeing the cesspool of what happens over social media when people disagree. It was a breath of fresh air. So I've really enjoyed getting to learn uh how that goes down.

SPEAKER_03 7:38

Thanks, Amy.

SPEAKER_05 7:40

Anytime.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Jason, what about you? Um yeah, I guess I was dive into my my I guess my background and and I guess that would sort of lead into like why this really uh you know spoke a lot of interest. Yeah, I moved to the Philippines you know 11 years ago after living in Washington, DC for uh 13 years, where I worked at you know in the Bush and Bush administration for five years, and I got in dove into the Department of Energy. And I thought I was gonna be like live you know, spending the rest of my career in Washington, DC until I met my wife. And where she on the second date, she's like, Oh, you know, pretty much gonna be moving to the Philippines. And I was like, Oh, okay. Um she said, What are your thoughts? I was like, I'm I'm game, and now I've been living in the Philippines for you know 11 years. And when I move first moved here, I I had to um I had to move here with like an open mind. Because I know I was going into a lot of unknowns, like you know, uh culture, history, the people, the food, the work ethic. And so I had to really, you know, most of the time just like listen and sort of embrace. You know, I came with like with like an open mind and which equals like an open heart. And and and watching you know what's happening in the United States, like the the vision um and you know from afar from you know from the Philippines, it just drew me in, like, you know, I I want to get back into it and I want to sort of contribute and to sort of talk about like you know, everyone has a story, and we have to give people respect and to listen to get back to the fundamentals of what it means to be American, you know, back to the founding and through the history and and what we've learned through the different speakers, you know, um uh throughout uh the the episodes. It's it's just really it is really drew to me is like so I can sort of contribute from you know from being in the Philippines.

SPEAKER_03 9:24

Thank thanks so much, Jason. And you and I had a had a really interesting conversation back in August when you were visiting Washington, D.C. And we were talking about how your vision of uh storytelling is so important because if you have a story that binds you together and that gives you a sense of purpose, uh, then it's possible to deal with a lot of adversity. And you talked very movingly about your mother and her story of her purpose in the face of all of this uh uh adversity she's faced in her own own health issues. Do you want to say a little bit more about that?

SPEAKER_02 10:06

Yeah, it yeah, that's I'm glad you brought that up. Like one of the things like you know, growing up um from early childhood to you know now is just watching my mother having all these medical issues, you know, pop up from you know having lung cancer. She's had you know several uh heart attacks and had was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, and and it just seems like you know, she just needs to give like a ticket out to the next disease that's gonna take the best shot at her. And and but her but her mindset was this sort of it's absolutely amazing. And she's like, you know, I'll I'll get through it, you know, I'll I'll sort of smile at you know what's being thrown at me and and and and lead by you know an example, and and what really drives her is like you know watching me and my brother succeed and listening, seeing our stories unfold, and really taught me like you know, it's important to really understand you know that aspect of like what drives a person, what you know, what is their story, like every person has a unique story uh to tell, and every organization uh has a unique uh story to tell. But sometimes like the best thing to do is not talk, but to listen and to get to know who you're talking with. And even though they might disagree with you, you might disagree with them, but it's just like you have that basic mutual understanding is like respect. Like I agree, we agree to disagree, and that's sort of lost now. Like when I was in Washington, DC, a lot of things were handled, you know, a behind the scenes, like you know, Democrats or Republicans are a friend. I remember going to um parties, um, you know, c you know, uh you know, dinner parties with friends of mine, both your Republicans and Democrats, and we were just we had fun, we would you know, uh rip on one another, but we it was all fun, but we were friends, and we've lost that you know, we've lost that sense of purpose of being you know friends. And now it's this sort of like, okay, he's a Republican, he's a Democrat, you know, and that's causing that division. And it and it's watching it unfold from you know uh from the Philippines and talking to different you know, Filipinos, talking when you know at ADB, like I'm dealing with people that from all around the world and are saying, what's happening with your country? Why is it so divided? And and I think that's what really drew me, drew me to this, because we need to have these conversations. We need to get back to you, identify what America's why is.

SPEAKER_03 12:18

Thanks, Jason. I just found that story about how your mother has found and maintained purpose in the face of adversity to be so moving and so inspiring because I think we as a national community also have certainly faced our challenges. We're facing challenges today, but with better storytelling, with a more clear sense of what we share in terms of our purpose, we have a better shot at really uh being resilient and recovering uh this purpose that that uh that you you identify as having become unclear to many people. Um and Blake, on this subject of listening, you came to me some months back and said you you were between jobs. I mean, you were working part-time, but you were looking for something to really engage your energies uh while you were waiting for your new job. And you started going around San Diego County from the San Diego Pier in the west to the Imperial Valley uh in the rural area of Southern California and interviewing a lot of people. What are you what have you learned about listening to people's stories?

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Yeah, um, so I think what drew me to the project was a feeling that a lot of public life is reactive and performative and quick to flatten people into stereotypes. I wanted to be a part of something that would treat listening like a method and not just a moral ideal. I was interested in how people arrive at their views, not just substance behind what they think, but why they think that way. And what I've learned so far is that people become a lot more collaborative and peace oriented when they feel they're not being immediately judged or threatened. Um and that when people that distrust is often a deeper political barrier than the disagreement itself. And I think that once people feel heard, they'll move past their slogans um and just share a more honest and reflective outlook. Um, and I've also been struck by how people across partisan differences still value many of the same conversational qualities, um, like modesty and civility and curiosity and self-awareness.

SPEAKER_03 15:11

I just find that insight that disagreement is not really the core problem here. The core problem is distrust. I find that to be so uh insightful and really inspiring because we can rebuild trust even where we disagree. Uh so what have you learned about how you can start to re-establish trust?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Re-establishing trust again would come down to the qualities behind a conversation to make it um constructive. I think when you focus too much on people's vulnerabilities or what you know will get them down, um that's not a healthy way to approach it. Um but if you just like look at them and you can just accept their life choices regardless of what those life choices are, um you can communicate with them.

SPEAKER_03 16:31

Thanks, Blake. I thank you so much for all the work you've been doing. Sad, I I want to come back to you because uh you and I were talking way, what was it, May or June of 2025, I guess?

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Kind of June, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:49

And so you said to me, I'm interested in being a research assistant for you. I have really good quantitative skills uh based on my master's work uh in international affairs. And I said to you, well, what I'm really interested in doing is starting a podcast. And you said to me, Well, I used to co-produce a podcast back in my previous job. And I said, Oh, fantastic. And and then 10 days later, you came back to me with an eight-page single-spaced outline of exactly what should go into this podcast, in what order, and so forth and so on. So tell me, Sarah, what originally drew you to this podcast and what have you learned so far?

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yeah, I think the first of all, I'm really um grateful working with this team because when we had all this meeting, we didn't have we didn't have any thought we could have more people to join us. And then it's kind of really exciting to see we are working with these nice people and teach it to each other and learn from them. And but for my I think I'm gonna do the same thing as um Jason, that it's all about my background. Um and I grew up in Turkey. Uh it's a country shaped by extraordinary diversity of ideas, religions, and identity, and position at the crossroads of Europe, the Middle East, Central Asia, and Africa. Uh, from an early age, I was exposed not only to different cultures, but also the realities of the regional conflict. Um, and it felt like living multiple worlds at once. And it made me deeply curious about like people, politics, religion, and the reason behind differing perspectives. And over time I began uh actively seeking out those perspectives like traveling, listening, and engaging with people whose views often challenging my own. At first it was difficult, but I came to the understanding that listening to opposing viewpoints is not just important, it is essential to growth. And I believe that understanding why you disagree with something is often more valuable than simply knowing why you support it. And this is my starting point to understand people and listen people, and this mindset has shaped my both my like personal and professional path, and my work focuses on political violence, civil war, religion, extremism, and radicalization, including online dynamics. And I'm driven by a long-term commitment to contributing a more peaceful world. I think this is my main focal point why I joined this project, because peace, I think I believe peace starts with listening each other because we live in these worlds and we need to communicate, even if we are if we disagree. And since moving to the United States in 2019, I have continued this journey and traveling across the country, meeting people from diverse backgrounds and studying security and defense issues through their um live experiences. I think the why I joined uh why I joined this project because the project resonates deeply with me because it creates a space where people can come together, listen across differences, and explore not only where they agree, but where they diverge and why. And at the time band polarization is increasing and people weaves are evolving faster than are able to understand one another. I see this project as a meaningful platform to establish dialogue and mutual understanding. And so far I learned a lot. I thought, even like coming from this background, I thought kinda I improve myself at some point, but even keeping listening to people, I still improve my knowledge on how we can listen to people because we change, the world changes, everything changes. And these projects allow me to kinda uh keep up with this change and understand and improve like increase my ability to understand other people and living with a like peaceful world.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

One of the uh things that really impressed me was uh uh you took a vacation, uh what was it back in October or something like that? Where and it turned out to be uh uh pretty terrible weather toward toward the end because there was a big storm coming up the East Coast, as I recall. But you and your husband, who's an airline pilot, uh you you got on your Harley Davidson's, you uh decided to ride to South Carolina uh from your Home in Northern Virginia. And you you traveled the route to South Carolina via New Jersey, New York, up to Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maine, Northern New York, and then back down to South Carolina and then back to uh uh back to Virginia. And uh so you traveled all over the eastern seaboard and talked with people at every stage along the way. Tell us just a little bit about those conversations.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

I think um like my experience taught me like the first thing the United States is a huge country, and we call this like continent country. And it's really hard to generalize thoughts here, ideologies here. And when I travel all the way, also like my other travels, also I had travels from kind of south to west or from the east to uh north, and I learned like when I came to the United States, I recognized I was within a small community, um, as Jason mentioned, like kind of the United States um political environment is mostly too polars. And then I thought the world, like the United States was like this, and then when I start traveling all all around the United States, I meet with people in village, uh also like the cities, then I recognize something is getting more diversified than I thought. And it's really hard to to like it's really hard to bring all these people around one table, uh, but it's not impossible. And this is my thought because finding the middle point to bring those people and talk about their diverse uh the diversified background and yeah, there is there is a point that we can talk peacefully, even if we have different perspectives. Um I think yeah, I learned the United States has many uh views than other parts of the world because of this population, but also I learned this diversity also revolves around some dynamics that can bring people around one table, and it changed my mindset a lot. When I travel all around the United States, I recognize something that yeah, the United States population is really diversified, but it doesn't mean that it's imp like it's impossible to bring those people around one table, because there are some points that many people are angry on, and this is the project that we want to point out, these uh issues that can bring people and talk about in a peaceful environment. Um kind of after this journey, like we started discussing this project before, but like over time uh when I traveled more, I had more thoughts for this project. And thanks to our team, we have like we are going to grow each passing day through like discussing, listening to each other. I'm sure like our process was mostly like discussing, being disagree, then being agreed uh agreed on the the issues, including our logos, website. Even like I think what we learn through this project also we apply to this project. Um this is the most important thing, and also like the it's my passion. And I hope we're gonna like uh we're gonna keep doing this and include our community. Um yeah, those are my thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 26:00

Thanks, Seda. I I love meeting with our team every week and all our conversations. Uh as you say, we had a long conversation about logos and uh what which ones would would be most appealing to the widest range of audience and uh the colors of the logo, and uh but but just every every week when we're talking about who should we interview, what what should come next, what are the core points we're trying to get at? And so in in the few minutes we have left, uh I wonder if we could just take a little bit of time to look look forward. I mean, what what do each of you hope that we will accomplish? Where do you think we should be going? And how can we bring value to the people who take their precious time to listen to us every week? And how can we bring people into the conversation in a way that's gonna be most useful to our American community and also to people around the world who are friends of America and who want to understand us better and help us?

SPEAKER_00 27:15

I can go first. I think the for our future would be like is we learn altogether. We don't have to agree on the like the something. Um but we need to learn how to listen each other. And this is a really critical point because right now the I think I believe all this experience taught me people think like uh collaboration or negotiation comes with the like convincing other people to believe what you believe. And I think with this project my aim and the my like I hope we're gonna work on this, like like to tell people I think peace doesn't come with agreeing on the same thing. I think peace comes with the like with that with the accepting that you don't have to change other people's mind to live together. Uh being open-minded is the critical thing. And I hope with this project we like in the future we're gonna talk more about listening and having negotiation or collaboration within a peaceful environment and how we can do it. Because there are many things right now out there, true books, like you can read many like conflict resolution books and also like the communication books, but it's not about like they mostly these theories stay in the books, and unfortunately we don't have any like applied methodology. We apply it at some point, but I think we just with this project I hope we're gonna just take these theories to our daily life to see which one is working, which one is not.

SPEAKER_03 29:03

Thanks, Seda. Amy, you're currently recording an episode for our little series on hard jobs. Uh and so what you've you've spent some time uh in your professional development since graduate school uh in a very tough job market, uh, listening to people in your your work as a server and bartender uh at some local establishments, uh, even as you're you're moving, you're on your path toward a high-powered job in the security policy field. Uh and so one of the people you've been talking to uh has a job that involves listening. Uh and his name is Anthony, and he works the complaints line at what is it, ANOVA Fairfax Hospital?

SPEAKER_05 29:53

Yeah, yeah. He works basically listening to people's billing complaints all day long.

SPEAKER_03 29:59

All right. So we're really looking forward to that inaugural episode of our hard jobs uh uh component of this podcast series. Jason, you've also been talking a lot and listening a lot to your colleagues uh in the Asia Development Bank over in uh which is based in the Philippines, uh, and to other people who work with the Asia Development Bank over there. Uh what about what have you learned about listening? What do you want to do with with your interviews with with the people um you're encountering uh in other parts of the world?

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Yeah, that's that's you know that's a great uh question. And I think that the sort of going into the second component of this podcast series is that we're gonna start interviewing people um to give like a global perspective. You know, we're looking to uh interview um Ajayat Sharma, who is a TED Talk ambassador, a former TED Talk ambassador from India, and his expertise is obviously storytelling, and he has um you know uh great expertise, like overall you know, corporate communicate communication strategies has taught you know global leaders and business execs how to you know to present and to talk about their narratives. So pulling in different perspectives um you know from all the different players that I've been working with at ADB and the people that interact um at and at a personal level too in the Philippines, but also back to um about the uh was it hard, was it hard jobs, is it with the title? Yeah, the hard jobs, like yeah, I was it was like ring buzzing because like I also waited tables when I was washed it in Washington, DC. And when I got appointed to work uh by the White House to work at HUD, I still worked uh night shifts at the restaurant, and I would go from like say my my you know suit and tie, then I would change in the uh I guess the storage room. I went from you know suit and tie to the uniform, and I would love to explore that. Um but um again, it's like I think the next stage of this is really getting to people's stories, and I think listening to like what they had to deal with, you know, just to start off their careers, who you know it really showcases who they are as a person. If like they had a hard job to do to get where they are today, it really humbles people. And it's sort of like you so you might interview someone and you might, oh my god, like I didn't expect that to happen, that they work as a server, or they you know, you know, uh custodian, or you know, you know, you know, you name it. But it's truly that's why it's important to listen, to get a really true understanding of what you know a person is about. And I guess that's sort of my perspective of like you know, living abroad now and and and traveling around like Asia and the Pacific. And so I I sort of live through my experiences, like, you know, in the each item in my office has a unique story to tell about my international travels. And I think that's what I want to bring to is sort of the second component is like those stories, those insights of like you know, what's happening globally about you know storytelling and policy and where things are going and technology, and then applying it to the United States and what people are saying.

SPEAKER_03 33:10

Thanks a lot, Jason. And and Blake, uh just to wrap up this uh this conversation with you, uh, because you you're uh uh next up with uh with an episode looking at what you've learned about listening uh from your conversations with people in San Diego County. What comes next for you?

SPEAKER_01 33:37

I echo Seta's point earlier where she talked about how conflict resolution is studied or communication behind conflict resolution is studied. Um and we obviously always need to keep studying that and always need to understand why conflict escalates. Um but I think what she said about um finding a methodology um behind meaning in the middle, um, I think is you know a core thing about the America's Wide podcast. And I think it's something that we need to continue to keep in mind. Um so I echo her sentiment behind that. And so under exploring not just why listening matters, but the conditions under what's makes it possible, examining what helps people to not just get defensive and not like or get offensive, right? Good offense as a good defense. Um, because I think uh that would be good to understand further. And then um, yeah, so I would just say in some moving from diagnosis toward sort of a more concrete method would be the um definite next step. And I think that should be where we should um take this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 35:20

Thanks a lot, Blake. Thanks, Amy, thanks, Seda, thanks, Jason, and thanks also to Lakshmi, who's off at class right now. It's such a joy to work with all of you. I admire and appreciate all of you very deeply. I uh truly enjoy our time together, and I personally look forward to broadening our community and really bringing our listeners into the conversation so that we have an opportunity to do great things together. Thanks everyone. Thanks to all of you in Listening Land for listening. Uh, we invite you to join our conversation, and we'll see you next week.

SPEAKER_06 36:06

You're listening to the America's Why Podcast. Our music is by James Fernando. For more information and to join the conversation, please visit our website at America's Why Project.com. See you next week.