Conversations That Can Get You Fired!

Gowling WLG partner and employment lawyer Neena Gupta returns to Coffee ‘n’ Law to discuss workplace communications that can result in termination. Neena outlines the importance of determining context in communication, and how because comments can be linked to culture, they may be acceptable in some workplaces and not others. 

Neena also touches on the specific areas of workplace communications that HR should be very careful about. And with respect to written communication, she provides very specific advice that we could all benefit from following. 

Connect with Neena Gupta:

On LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/neena-gupta-0107aa4

Email: neena.gupta@gowlingwlg.com

Visit Gowling WLG's website: www.gowlingwlg.com

Connect with Amy Davies:

On LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/daviesamy

Email: amy@first30ready.com

Visit First30's website: www.first30ready.com

HR Law Canada

Stay up to date with employment law news by subscribing to HR Law Canada: www.hrlawcanada.com

This podcast is produced by Storyphora, www.storyphora.com, info@storyphora.com

#amydavies #neenagupta #coffeenlaw #employmentlaw #HRleaders #workplacelaw #employeemonitoring #privacy

Transcript

Neena Gupta 0:00

Always write things as if a judge is gonna read them. Now that's great advice for a lawyer, but it's also just great advice in general.

Amy Davies 0:10

I do think we all need to learn because so much of our communications, even with our teams now, are on text, on email, and we're very fast to write these things. If you're angry and you're sending messages, go to bed. Go to bed, send it tomorrow. Workplace law is complex and constantly changing. It can be hard to keep up, and the risk of getting it wrong can be costly for businesses. The Coffee and Law Podcast is here to help HR professionals and employers stay informed. We'll cover what's changing and how to navigate real workplace situations and everyday people decisions. So grab your favorite warm drink and join us for engaging practical and educational conversations with top experts in workplace and employment law.

Brent Jensen 1:03

This podcast provides high-level general information. The perspectives shared by our guests are for educational purposes and do not constitute legal advice. If you have a specific question or concern, please consult a qualified lawyer.

Amy Davies 1:19

Hi everyone, it's Amy Davies, founder and CEO of First30, and also your Coffee in Law podcast host here. To remind you that First30 offers career transition and outplacement services. So if you have terminations and layoffs coming up, this is a really good way to mitigate risk to your business and help your exiting employees recover from the job loss and get back to work. You can find out more information at www.first30ready.com forward slash outplacement, or you can reach out to me, Amy AMY, at first30ready.com. All of our programs include live coaching and a year of access. And in a tough job market, that can be very important. Now, back to our show. Welcome back to Coffee and Law. We're gonna talk about something kind of scary actually, the conversations that can get you fired. Um, but before we do that, I want to thank everyone so much for your support. Our little podcast is just taking off with our HR community, which we're so grateful for. So I'll remind you that if you haven't already, please subscribe to the show. Um and if you're listening, uh you can you're welcome. And we invite you to give us a five-star rating. It does help the show, uh, and we do really appreciate it. And of course, I want to thank our partners, HR Law Canada. And if you haven't had a chat chance to check them out, I would really recommend taking a look because they release some amazing articles all about employment law, about current cases happening that you need to be aware of. So you should check them out. Their information will be in the show notes. Um, and of course, I want to thank our amazing producers. As I say, we get asked all the time who produces this show. And it's uh a company called Story4, and they're just a lot of fun to work with. And every time before we get on the show, we always have a little fun chat with them, which is why we seem already so warmed up and ready to go once we get started. So um I thought I'd give a shout out to them. And of course, Nina, thank you and Gowling for your support of the show as well. I have to say, Nina, I cheated on you a little this week because I was in Kitchener and I just had back to back. I know, I know, I know everyone was asking me, are you staying with Nina tonight? And I was like, don't tell her, don't tell her I was here. But you know, our friend Lynn Charlton was like, maybe you could uh she's gonna give me a room in her house too. So you have competition. Um, but uh yes, so welcome everyone again. And I wanted to start off, Nina, with a funny story just because I want to be clear from the get-go that this is a tough topic, right? Because we're all coming from different places. We have a wonderful melting pot here in Canada where we uh have people from all over the world coming to Canada, and their experience of the world may be very different than ours, and it can be very hard to get used to. But uh, some of you might know that I lived in England for some time, about six years in my 20s, and I was so proud of myself. You know, when you go clothes shopping, you're all proud of your new what you bought. I was strutting into the office and we're in an open plan, and I shouted out, hey, look at my new pants, which to us would just seem like look at my new, what they call in the UK, as I learned, trousers. But to them, I was referring to your undergarments. So you can only imagine how many people popped up from their cubicles to check out what I was talking about. But it was just such an I mean, we all had a very good laugh over it. It was very innocent. Everyone understood um that I didn't know what I was saying. So I want to be very clear that there are times when bad behavior is intentional, and there are times when bad behavior is perceived that way, but there's a very innocent explanation for it. So I wanted to kind of kick off the show by explaining that and understanding that you know, we are all coming from different places, but what we're gonna discuss today is really important for both employees, employers, and HR to be aware of.

Neena Gupta 5:56

Absolutely. So, where do you want to start, Amy?

Amy Davies 6:00

So look at my new panel.

Neena Gupta 6:04

Let's not.

Amy Davies 6:06

Well, I would just like to start with, you know, what you know, what happens in these situations? So we have HR who's probably navigating a lot of this. So you have someone coming to them and saying, This has happened, they're made aware of a situation. When is there uh a reason for when is it a problem? I guess like how what what are they looking for? What are the signs that something is serious and they need to have conversations and dig deeper?

Neena Gupta 6:38

You know, uh this is the type of conduct that is the hardest to actually deal with because so much is inextricably linked to culture. And what is perhaps I'm gonna say acceptable in a male-dominated blue-collar workplace may not be acceptable at my law firm. And so it becomes context becomes really important. Now, there are certain things that you know HR should be absolutely um careful about. So there are some no no-go areas, and the both the criminal code and the occupational health and safety act make it very clear that threats of violence absolutely no-go. Um and I don't want to, you know, like if somebody listening to the conversation would reasonably perceive that to be, yeah, that had a bit of edge to it. I uh, you know, like uh, you know, it it isn't funny. So an example I'll give is where why don't we step aside and I'm gonna just uh, you know, um show you who's boss, or why don't you step, we step aside and I'm gonna pulverize you? Um, you know, that type of threat, it's just a no-go.

Amy Davies 8:00

And so, sorry, let me just ask a question there. So if someone makes that kind of threat in the workplace and say they've done all the things, it's known, it's documented, it act it ha they can prove it happened, is that uh like this person must be fired for making that comment? Well, you know, listen, cause well, we are talking, it's what could get you fired.

Neena Gupta 8:22

Yes, well, yes, well, it could get you fired, but I would say that the law of cause is very nuanced, and we've talked about how just cause is very hard to terminate somebody. And if if a person has had a reasonably good employment history, and this is a one-off aberration, I think a judge would say there's got to be an alternative to immediate dismissal. You know, can we get the person to apologize? Can we get the person to do some training? Take, you know, is this person going to take responsibility and really commit to not doing it again? And can we do that? And some people, some of the people listening to this may remember that over a decade ago, there was a somewhat inebriated Hydro One employee who essentially photobombed or camera-bombed a journalist and essentially said something extraordinarily vulgar and sexual. Now, in fairness, it was not uh it was not during working hours. He was clearly off on his personal time, but it was outrageous. His conduct was outrageous. And Hyder One immediately terminated him. What most people don't know is that months later, the labor arbitrator, because he was protected in a labor union, actually reinstated him. Now, the decision's not, I don't, or there was a resolution. So just because the conduct is public, just because the conduct is outrageous, doesn't actually mean that you have cause for termination. You may be able to say, I don't want to put up with that person. Nina, tell me what it's gonna cost, you know, under the Employment Standards Act, maybe under the common law to get rid of them, but I don't want him or her around. That's one thing. But to say, do you have cause to say off with your head, you're out, we're not paying you anything? One incident, probably not.

Amy Davies 10:25

Well, because there's we think in Canada we have free speech here, right? So where do where is the line between free speech and you can't say this in your workplace?

Neena Gupta 10:38

Ah, well, free speech is a constitutional concept, which means you have the right to express your opinion and the government can't punish you for that. The charter doesn't actually prevent your employer from having a different policy. And many employers have policies about what can and cannot be discussed in the workplace. So free speech, unless you're working for the government as a constitutional concept, isn't going to help you much. Employers who are smart have respect in the workplace policies. Uh, it's mandatory in Ontario, and they'll probably have a code of what can and cannot be said, including harassing comments, bullying comments, sexually suggestive comments that are considered to be inappropriate and for which they reserve the right to discipline and in extreme cases terminate. Even in a constitutional constact, the criminal code makes it illegal to utter a threat of bodily violence that somebody listening would take seriously. So you can't just go around, you know, threatening to pulverize people. Like if somebody takes that seriously, that's a criminal code offense. And the I was just joking or oh, it's just words.

Amy Davies 11:57

You know, that's a defense.

Neena Gupta 11:58

Probably doesn't work too well.

Amy Davies 12:00

Yeah. Well, I you and I were talking offline about a situation I had many years ago in a workplace where a male colleague let me know that his wife was gonna be away that weekend and would I like to come visit? And I mean, I did not want to. Uh, and I certainly didn't want to be asked that by my colleague, and I did not give a very positive reaction. And then the res, you know, the response was, I was just joking. And I bring that up because I'm sure there are people listening, especially a lot of women who have been in a similar situation like that in the workplace. And what grounds do we have? I did not report that. It made me very uncomfortable. This person made me just very uncomfortable in general, and kind of wish that I had taken some action. So, what would you say to both an employee and an HR professional if they find themselves in a similar set type of situation like that in the workplace?

Neena Gupta 12:53

So, our laws talk about a course of vexatious conduct. So, one invitation, it's almost like it's a freebie, but I still think it should be reported. The person's not going to get fired for that, or is unlikely unless there's a whole slew of things that you don't know about in the background. But just having a talking to, it's not appropriate unless, you know, there's, you know, to make that kind of comment in a workplace. Now, it and particularly I think, you know, if you're talking about a subordinate or somebody who's much more junior in the organization, even if they don't report to you, there is a power imbalance that makes those kinds of conversations uh really awkward. I don't know if it's true, it might be apocryphal, but I was told that when I started work in the in law firm in the late 1980s, the young male lawyers and articling students were all given the thou shalt not. And it was essentially our legal assistants and our legal staff are way more valuable than you are. Thou shalt not harass them, thou shalt not sexually solicit them, thou shalt not be handsy with them, thou shalt not suggest anything to them, because if they find it offensive, we're just telling you you are going to be out the door, not them. I don't know if that was apocryphal or not, but it was definitely a message that, you know, here you are, you're this, you know, young thing. You've just graduated from law school, you're a young associate or a young articling student, you're hot stuff, you know everything about law that there is to know. And there's an attractive young legal assistant, mealroom person, librarian, law paralegal. Keep your hands off.

Amy Davies 14:47

Yeah, I think just in general, in the workplace, keep your hands off is a very good rule.

Neena Gupta 14:52

Very good piece of advice.

Amy Davies 14:54

Yes, a very good piece of advice. Outplacement and career transition support make a real difference for employees experiencing terminations or layoffs. Offering these services also reduces legal and reputational risk for employers. All of First30's outplacement programs include access to a live coach along with one year of access to our career transition portal, job search resources, and much more. Programs start at $985 per participant. You can find information about our programs and pricing at first30ready.com forward slash outplacement. Or reach out to us anytime at info at first30ready.com. So is there anything else that you wanted to say about that? Because I have another question specifically related to interviewing. Job interview.

Neena Gupta 15:45

Oh, let's go to interviews. I've been asked all the questions.

Amy Davies 15:48

Oh, yeah, I bet. Because it's got it, it's for right the right reasons, in a lot of cases, it's getting far more complicated to interview uh folks when they come in the door. And uh just as a reminder to everyone, I'm sure you watched our very first episode ever where we talked about the changes in 2026. And I think this actually happened before 2026. You can correct me if I'm wrong, Nina, but we have to have three years of notes on every interview and every candidate, every interview that we do, correct?

Neena Gupta 16:21

If you're over, if you're in Ontario and you're over 25 employees, you have to keep track of your communications and your correspondence with respect to recruitment, including unsuccessful candidates. Logic of that is if they want to bring a human rights complaint, you can then you have the notes to show I chose Amy because of X, Y, and Z, and this other candidate didn't have it. It wasn't because she was black, it wasn't because he was male, it was because Amy was the right candidate. Um, and so it's accountability effectively. Sure.

Amy Davies 16:59

Yes, but there are, yeah, so there are things you can say in job interviews as an employer, as an interviewer, as a talent acquisition specialist that are gonna get you in trouble should those things be reported. And I would think that these things are more likely to be reported in a world where there is more um compliance required.

Neena Gupta 17:21

Yes. And people are more um more aware of their rights. You know, they can go and type something in chat GPT. May not be 100% accurate, but it'll give a sense of their rights. So I recommend when you're doing interviews to actually focus on the essential job duties and craft your questions to determine what do they have that relates to those job duties. Now, I and I've been guilty of this. You meet a candidate and they have a fascinating background. Um, and you want to learn about that. And it's just on a human level. It's not so much you're a job interviewer, you're human, you're expecting, you know, you're kind of establishing rapport. And it's not uncommon. Um, you know, if you have pictures of your young, cute kids, my son's 25, so he's past the young, cute kid stage.

Amy Davies 18:09

But he is, he is a very sweet person. I got to meet him. Yes, he is.

Neena Gupta 18:13

He's lovely, but you know, like, you know, like, you know, that you know, there is a little the chubby cheek, long past the chubby cheek. Yeah, exactly. But you know, you start talking about kids, and it it it's, you know, you could you could just hear it coming out of your mouth, you know. Oh, do you have kids? Are you, you know, any you and let's say that candidate was great, but was not the successful candidate. They're going to wonder if that conversation about children played against them. And so two things. I I make it clear I'm gonna really focus on on the work uh of the, you know, and really plan out and use that same plan for every candidate. And even if, because you know me, I'm a chatty Kathy, I love people.

Amy Davies 18:58

I want to know about their, you know, like you do, you do love people and you do want to know about people, like going back to when we first got to know each other, but I wasn't interviewing for a job at Gallagher's.

Neena Gupta 19:08

But that's it's different. But in a job interview, if I catch myself maybe veering off, I was trained and I thought this was a brilliant tip. So, you know what? I'm digressing. I'm really sorry about that. Why don't we focus on the interview? Uh, maybe we'll have a chance to discuss other things at another point in time. But to catch yourself, you know, and and even say, even if it sounds a bit abrupt, say, oh, we're we're digressing. Because I'd love to, I'd love to know about, you know, like, you know, where your parents came from, your, you know, and in certain cultures, including my own, we do this um sort of, you know, like kind of geography. Uh and I, you know, I and I remember You're building the family, you're building the planning tree, not branching. Client who, you know, like he's comes from the same part of India. Oh, you know, they come from, but like, where did their ancestors come from? Well, in Bangladesh. And he says, Well, everybody comes from Bangladesh. Where in Bangladesh? Oh, a small village near Taka. He says, Well, that could be anything. Which small village in like literally we were going down. And then he said, Oh, well, that's my village too. That's where my ancestors came from. And that's a typical conversation. Now that's culturally very common. Uh, it's very common to find out about your caste and subcaste stuff that we just don't do in Canada. And so even if there's a little it'sy parts of my brain that's kind of tempted to go there, I just say, oh, we digress. Let's focus on what we're here for today. I just want to keep an eye on the clock and keep, you know, really get through my interview questions. And and somebody taught me that during a training, and I thought that was like a really good verbal trick because we're all human. We can all sort of trip, but we just want to make sure that we don't, I don't want to turn interview processes into some kind of mechanical thing because you are trying to make that human connection. But I also don't want to veer into conversations that make people uncomfortable and question, oh, did I get that job because of ethnicity? Did I not get that job because of my plans to have kids? I don't want to go there.

Amy Davies 21:20

I feel like we need a whole episode just on job interviews because, you know, like all the natural questions come up, like, well, what if someone's brought up their kids? What do you do then? Do you just veer away from that conversation? But we'll talk about that another time because I think that is a really important point.

Neena Gupta 21:37

But but can I just because that conversation can get you into trouble? And I've had people say this to me. Well, I wasn't trying to do it. I just wanted to make sure that they understood this job was 7 30 to 4, that there wasn't a lot of flex. And I um, if they have kids, I, you know, I wanted to know whether or not they can make that schedule because it's an assembly line and I. Can't accommodate it or it's frontline reception and they're on the morning shift, right? I think it's completely appropriate to ask the question: this job requires a 7:30 on time sharp start. And is there anything that is going to impede that? Um, is there any accommodation that you're going to maybe need? Because that's very important to us. And get it out in the open that that 7:30 start is really important. I've had people ask about children, says, Well, what I was really trying to ask about is whether or not they could travel because this is a sales job. Remember when we did sales jobs in person, as opposed to by teams and stuff? So they're going to be on the road, you know, um, you know, like probably two weeks out of each month. So ask the question. You know, our sales people are typically at our clients or traveling, you know, Sunday night to Friday afternoon. Is that going to be an issue for you? Because that's really important to us. Have you ever done a job with that kind of significant traveling component? How do you deal with the fact that it's really hard, you know, to keep in touch with the office when you're on the road? Not like it is today. I'm just giving you historical examples.

Amy Davies 23:31

Is it required in a job ad to state the percentage of time that you'll need to travel? Because I do know people in sales jobs that still do have to travel a certain percentage of the time.

Neena Gupta 23:43

Um I don't know if it goes down to a percentage, but it's very common if there's a significant travel component to say it's a significant travel component, and also if it's a travel component that's international, to make it clear that that is expected, because there's certain people, maybe they've got a criminal conviction from you know 15 years ago. Maybe it's not relevant to me, but it may be very relevant to uh international immigration authorities, or it depending on where you are in your work permit or citizenship process, it may not be appropriate for you to travel based on legal advice, just because there are certain complexities there. And so I make I recommend that if you have a travel job, make it clear. And also the extent of it. Like some of the jobs are literally local in Ontario. That's a different consideration than when it's overnight and you know, far away and in different geographies.

Amy Davies 24:40

Okay, so now let's get back to, I should say, I digress. It's all interesting and important things for people to know. So now you're in a situation, maybe you've done it. Maybe a person who's a business partner, you're an HR, one of your business partners has done this. They've said it. They've said the thing. It's out. The toothpaste is out of the bottle, right? Now, what do we do if we realize we've made a mistake, or as HR, we realize someone has made a mistake and we need to help them because it was it was an honest error. It just came out because we're human.

Neena Gupta 25:22

Uh, you know, I still believe in the power of a sincere apology as the first route. Um, our laws on harassment talk about as a um a course of action. So unless it's something egregious, a single slip is not considered harassment, it's not considered grounds for termination, but it can, as you know, sour the relationship. So a sincere apology is often the right thing to do. Where you have problems is where somebody doesn't see their conduct as wrong. And maybe it wasn't intended. There's a famous case. Actually, a friend of mine represented the employer, um, Mr. Huzko. I'm not sure I'm pronouncing it right. And I I there were some incidents and it was investigated, but I'm not sure I would have come to the same conclusion, but it it's water under the bridge. But I it was like trying to, I think it was like somebody had to get approval from a manager, and uh they were being evasive or difficult to reach or not responsive. And this uh Mr. Husko said to the junior female, you're just gonna have to sit on him. And the woman who heard it heard it from a sexualized component. I'm not sure I agree with that, but she heard it that way. One of the things that would have helped is uh just a sincere apology. You know, when I use that phrase, I I didn't mean anything by it. I just meant that you've really he's really hard to get a hold of, and you're just gonna have to stick to it and really be a pest because that's the only way you're gonna get that signature. I realize now, because I've listened to HR, that there might have been a sexual component or you heard something sexualized. I absolutely didn't mean that. I'm mortified that you could think that, right? I think that if that conversation had occurred, yeah, we wouldn't it wouldn't have gone up to the court of appeal. But the problem was he didn't want to apologize because he said, I didn't mean anything sexual, why should I apologize for that? Sure. And I get that, but sometimes it's not just what you did, it's like how it was received. And none of us, or most of us, really don't want to offend and hurt people. Uh, but we could have said, we could have used an expression, and particularly in Canada, where we have newcomers and people who learned English, maybe in the UK to use your pants example, um, or in India, um, you know, where words may have slightly different cultural contexts, um, maybe words are just heard a bit differently, and so you apologize. And that really makes a huge difference. Like practically speaking, I don't get to see those cases because HR has dealt with it. I only get to see the cases where somebody says, Hey, I was right and I'm not gonna apologize, and you shouldn't even be uh addressing this with me.

Amy Davies 28:38

And you know, we're talking about so so much of the things people say out loud, yet so much of our communication is on uh is is in written form now. And um, you know, I do think that we could all use training on, you know, how to manage our correspondence.

Neena Gupta 28:57

Okay, so uh another uh uh person said, always write things as if a judge is gonna read them. Now that's great advice for a lawyer, but it's also just great advice in general. And yesterday I had a really good settlement, like essentially we took a very tough position. That's not something, you know, it's not uncommon for me. And I got a counteroffer that I thought was really reasonable. Like, you know, like just um, yes, there are some, there are some changes and and differences, but you know, we should not be like, this should not go to litigation. This should settle now. Okay. It's it's you know, right? I'm really happy. And I almost wrote the phrase, he caved, yeah, you know, in the negotiations. And I thought, I don't, you know what, I really respect this lawyer on the other side. If by for some reason that email has to go out in public, it's it's social client privilege, but some, you know, it's the client's privilege. They may want to waive it as their understanding of the settlement. Do I want this lawyer with whom I have a great relationship, who is someone I negotiate with frequently, seeing an email in which I crow and brag, oh, he caved in the negotiation. Instead, what I said is Mr. So-and-so has, you know, you know, provided a very reasonable counter-offer. And although it's a bit different from our last position, I strongly recommend you accept it because if he sees that or a judge sees that, that is perfectly appropriate.

Amy Davies 30:40

Yes, it's so I do think we all need to learn because so much of our communications, even with our teams now, are on text, on email, and we're very fast to write these things. I would just say take a pause and reread. If you're angry and you're sending messages, go to bed. Go to bed, send it tomorrow, or use your AI partner, put that message through them and say, can you take the emotion out of this or can you help me make this professional? And it's actually a very good tool for that. Um, if you've trained it properly, but even so, I still think it's quite a good tool to do to do something like that. So I would say just pause. We don't, you know, we we're always so quick to want to respond to things and say things, and it can help just to take a few breaths.

Neena Gupta 31:34

Yeah, it does. And and and and rereading your own stuff and sometimes rereading your own stuff out loud. And you're going, ooh, yes.

Amy Davies 31:43

Oh, ooh, but read it in monotone without expression. Okay. Well, AI can do that for you too.

Neena Gupta 31:50

But you could do that and you go and you wince, right? Like you wince, yeah.

Amy Davies 31:53

Yes, yes, yes. So now, Nina, we uh we could talk about this as like so many topics we could go on and on forever, but I really want you to spill some tea before we go. So, any of you who are just joining us for the first time, we always have a segment at the end where we spill the tea, and it can be fun, it could be shocking, but something like story that you know that you think people will benefit from being aware of, but might maybe a little lighter.

Neena Gupta 32:17

Yeah, I don't know. Uh, so this is maybe not a little lighter, but um, I tell, as I said earlier, really we need to be careful about conversations with employees when it deals with human rights grounds. And I think one of the worst cases, and I think it was I think he was trying to be funny, but it was a um pregnant woman who was seeking accommodation and like was finding certain aspects of a kind of a warehouse production type of setting difficult. You know, you're on your feet a lot, and it's not, you know, gotta, and I think yeah, it's tough. Like we've both had kids. And he made some comment about I don't know why you're asking me, I'm not the one who knocked you up. And that did not go well. First of all, just from a human rights perspective, she was asking for accommodation. He didn't enter into the discussion about accommodation. He claims, and I believe him because I know him, that he said it in a funny sort of way. And of course he was going to, you know, deal with it. He was just trying, she was very upset and stressed about it, and and and he she he was trying to make a joke, and it was a joke that went flat. But she the next she apparently just was shocked. I mean, uh yes, she was hormonal and upset, but it was just a terrible thing to say. Luckily for me, um, the company was willing to accommodate and he was willing to apologize.

Amy Davies 33:55

Oh, that's good.

Neena Gupta 33:56

But it's an example of where something that you know was meant to be funny just went sideways. And um, and I'm glad, I'm glad that we were able to fix it. Um, but he truly was shocked at the blowback from the comment. Now he had a lot of women, including uh, I still remember her, somebody who had no management authority, but was sort of like the mother hen of this, you know, of the young. Did I hear you said such and such to so and so? And like you're an insensitive. Like I was thinking of going, okay, maybe she should be. But he she told him off. And she was so much more effective. Mother Hen was much more effective than me or the HR. Oh, wow. So we know where the power was. It was like with the mother and hen. So I tell that story just because I can uh it, you know, good people can say things that they, you know, wish they hadn't or can get them into legal trouble. And uh so maybe the bet two best tips, Amy, take some time and review and apologize when you need to apologize and do it sincerely. Like he his apology was a sincere apology. Uh oh, that's and it made a huge difference. That's good.

Amy Davies 35:20

Yeah, I I've been there. I, you know, I I a person who occasionally thinks I'm funny and all say something and make a joke. I did that in the workplace once. It was nothing that ever would have gotten me in trouble. It was just a person that I said it to, who's a friend, um, was very offended. Uh, I and I just apologized immediately. He had messaged me to say he wasn't very happy with my joke. I went right to his office and I explained that I was so sorry. I I failed, I didn't really see why he was upset, but I I was empathetic to the fact he was upset and I it was my responsibility, and I took it and wow, it made a huge difference. But it's just like you try to be funny, and sometimes it just doesn't. We all think we have a great sense of humor, right?

Neena Gupta 36:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, exactly. And and I will tell you that even smart people can get tripped on it. There is a very uh important case that came out in the context of investigations, and the complainant said one of the things that really bothered him was a use of the N-word in the workplace. The investigator essentially uses the full N-word when asking questions of this complainant. Complainant says, Look, I'm really uncomfortable with you using the full N-word, right? And the investigator didn't stop. Now Oh, come on. And so, and you know, he's he's a trained investigator, um, but it just meant that the complainant lost complete confidence in the investigators, you know, professional judgment and impartiality. And so, you know, when I read that case, I I just was like, oh my, like, you're a trained investigator. One of the things your tools is to build rapport with the witness or the complainant so that they are able to tell you what happened to them. And you are making your use of language a barrier to getting that that information. So, yes, words can get you into trouble.

Amy Davies 37:36

Absolutely, they can. Well, listen, thank you for your words today. I've learned a lot, and I'm sure our audience has too. Um, so you can, if you're interested in speaking with Nina, if you have specific issues uh and you need legal advice, because of course this is not legal advice. This is our per uh Nina's perspective. She doesn't know your business and your specific situation. Um, you can send her a message. Her email is in the show notes. Uh, you can always look her up on the Gowling WLG site, which I often have to do because I'm like, oh my goodness, where's your where's your headshot again? I'll go get the most recent one there. Um, but thank you so much, Nina, for taking the time to uh to share your perspective and expertise with us. I really appreciate it. And I hope everyone has a great rest of your day. Absolutely, and thanks. This was a lot of fun.