Long Con: Sterlin Harjo & Cannupa Hanska Luger, Ep 9, Featuring Pierre Barrera

Long Con is a series of conversations between Director Sterlin Harjo and Artist Cannupa Hanska Luger about life, art, film, history and everything in between - informally shared from the lens of two contemporary Native American artists and friends actively participating in the record of the 21st century.

Sterlin Harjo is an award winning Seminole/Muscogee Creek filmmaker who has directed three feature films and a feature documentary all of which address the contemporary Native American lived experience. Harjo is a founding member of the five-member Native American comedy group, The 1491s. Sterlin’s latest project Reservation Dogs, is a television show created in collaboration with Taika Waititi, now available to watch on FX. 

Cannupa Hanska Luger is a multidisciplinary artist who creates monumental and situational installations and durational performance and often initiates community participation and social collaboration. Raised on the Standing Rock Reservation in North Dakota, he is an enrolled member of the Three Affiliated Tribes of Fort Berthold and is of Mandan, Hidatsa, Arikara and Lakota descent. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Whatever you're subtly laying the rules down my whole life.

SPEAKER_06 0:09

All three days.

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Do whatever you want, but really what I want you to do. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 0:12

Do whatever you want exactly like this. You're gonna do whatever you want. Is there an applause?

SPEAKER_03 0:34

Stop yelling at me. Oh, you know what we can talk about? Kind of a tie in?

SPEAKER_04 0:44

Here, you're already breaking the shocking rules. I know. We didn't know we were recording. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:57

Suck your thumb.

SPEAKER_06 1:01

Welcome.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Hi. Hi. Back at the Long Kong head kind. Hong Kong. Back at the Hong Kong headline. That's where we work. We're in Hong Kong. We are not stoned.

SPEAKER_07 1:20

Hong Kong Pecos, New Mexico.

SPEAKER_06 1:23

Otherwise known as Glorietta. We're sitting out on our back deck that is probably about 10 years old, falling apart.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

We have a guest today.

SPEAKER_06 1:35

We have a guest today.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

Hi, I'm the guest.

SPEAKER_06 1:39

Would you uh be so kind to introduce yourself to our listeners?

SPEAKER_04 1:42

Uh my name is uh Pierre Barrera and I am a film worker.

SPEAKER_06 1:48

Film worker.

SPEAKER_04 1:49

And where are you from? I am from South Dakota, born and raised. Um, but I am enrolled in the Klamath tribe in Oregon. Where do you live now? I live here in Santa Fe. That's right. Yeah. A few uh ten miles from here.

SPEAKER_06 2:09

Ten miles. Ten miles. I know. Uh Pierre helped me on the construction of my home, actually.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Pierre's one of those, one of those people that if you need uh someone to do it right, yeah, you might ask Pierre. Yeah. And I might give you a right answer. But then he'll get a big head and he'll start telling you how to do everything.

SPEAKER_04 2:34

Well Pierre's head is physically big already. So I am I am a large man. Yeah. Very, very large. I I accept that.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

I met Pierre. When do we meet? Was it was it Santa Fe or Toronto? It was uh Toronto. Yeah, imaginate it years ago. But then we worked together on a show that never happened, but we shot the pilot. Yeah. Scalped, which was the um which I'm pretty glad didn't happen at this point. But uh the way it was done, yeah, it it should be. But I also think the way that it the way that history now, looking back, yeah, Res Dogs might not have happened, other things might not have happened if we would have gone down that path. Exactly. It was a very dark show. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 3:17

Yeah, but it did happen as far as the pilot goes, and it put in motion all of this stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were all together, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:24

It was like Lily, it's what I met Lily. Yeah. Um Zahn was on it. Zahn was on it, yeah. Yeah, it was um That guy's front. I love Doug. Doug the writer, producer was a cool dude. Who just uh show ran um what's the uh Hawaiian um film show that's coming out?

SPEAKER_06 3:45

Oh, Magnum P.I.

SPEAKER_03 3:46

No uh God of War? Yeah, no, not God of War.

SPEAKER_06 3:53

Warrior God.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

It's with um Xina.

SPEAKER_06 3:56

Oh fuck. Zina Warrior God Princess. No, it's a new show. It's with um with uh Aloha Zina.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

With a fucking new show. It's like the old like pre-contact, maybe contact. I don't even know.

SPEAKER_04 4:09

No, it's like uh Kalea Leia or Kalea Kalame K. I can't even remember. Kamehameha Kamehameha, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:15

Kamehameha.

SPEAKER_03 4:16

Yeah, that guy.

SPEAKER_06 4:18

Is that true?

SPEAKER_03 4:19

It might be. I know that the actor uh from Game of Thrones and uh Kal Drogo, um Oh, uh Jason Mamoa.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

Jason Momoa's in it.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Anyway, Doug show ran that. It's kind of okay. Oh yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Cool.

SPEAKER_06 4:38

Uh follow him on ShortCon Media. ShortCon! Thank you all for joining us. We're all good. Well, uh I had to close the windows. Currently, our children are all hanging out together playing D D. Which is really rad.

SPEAKER_03 4:54

Which is very rad.

SPEAKER_06 4:55

Yeah, super cool. I met Pierre through Ginger, um, who also used to work in the movies. Yep. And uh yeah, just good people. Good people. And I was I was just thinking about I was like rhyming your name today, um, trying to figure out how.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

Uh trying to rhyme things with Pierre?

SPEAKER_06 5:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was easy. I had the first one, was the was the winner.

SPEAKER_03 5:23

What was it?

SPEAKER_06 5:24

Pierre's there. Pierre's there. Pierre's there. Pierre's there. Yeah. Um, because Pierre's there.

SPEAKER_03 5:29

Pierre's unaware. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 5:31

Yeah. He always seems to be there on the spot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:36

Sitting down, one of the things that Pierre and I did on scalped when we worked together though, and got to know each other. It was funny because there was like a coalition of like like Morningstar and a couple of us were like the natives.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:46

And we were we were in different departments and we would watch for fucked up shit that was about about was happening. Yeah. And we would kind of back channel changing things. Yeah, exactly. You know, like we would kind of get together and talk like this can't have to be. Especially that we whole casino thing was. Yeah. And um, but Pierre and I used to stand there and Doug, uh who's a Korean American man, yeah, um, was the producer writer on it, and we would always see some like, you know, there'd be like a there'd be like a buzzard in the sky. Yeah. And we'd be like, oh man. That's not bad. That's not good. That's not good. This is not good. And Doug would be like, what? Oh man, you don't want to know.

SPEAKER_04 6:28

You don't want to know. Just just let it be. It's like counterclockwise.

SPEAKER_03 6:32

We'm smudge. What does it mean? Got to where Doug would see a bird himself and be like, is that bad?

SPEAKER_04 6:46

I just remember the first day we tried that. Uh I literally, uh Sterling and Doug were standing in the tent in front of the monitors, and I literally walk up, and I don't even think we rehearsed it or anything. I just walked up and I looked up in the sky and I just like shook my head. That's not good. And then I walked off. And that's all I did. And and Sterling just went with it. He just totally went with it. And later on, it was just we just kept doing it over and over.

SPEAKER_06 7:15

And Doug is now the director of this show. Showrunner of the show. Showrunner. Um, what is the name of that show that's coming out? Um Hawaiian uh Jason Mamoa. Maybe Kamehameha.

unknown 7:29

Oh yeah, I don't remember.

SPEAKER_06 7:30

God of War. Yeah, God of War. That's what I said earlier, God of War. That is what you said. Yeah. But it's also a video game franchise. Oh, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 7:37

I think it's something slightly different. Hold on.

SPEAKER_04 7:40

Mayor, Warrior of God. Mayor? Mayor of War. The Mayor of World. Mayor of War. Jason Memorial.

SPEAKER_06 7:49

I'll buy it.

unknown 7:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 7:50

Jason Memorial. Chief of War. Chief of War. Okay. There we go. See, that makes more sense. That makes. Because dude was a chief. Yeah. He was a chief. Uh Chief. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 8:02

I'm excited to see it.

SPEAKER_06 8:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:04

I mean, why not? I I watch it. All brown people fucking kick and colonize your ass, is what I'm thinking about.

SPEAKER_06 8:11

I mean, come on, let's change the the common narrative and remind people. I guess they're fighting colonizers. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

Oh fuck, they're fighting tribal, they're fighting each other. Yeah. But it's intertrible fighting. Alright, we'll move on to the next subject. We'll move on to the next subject. Yeah, the next one.

SPEAKER_06 8:34

I think we should talk about it a little bit more.

SPEAKER_04 8:37

Just talk about things we know nothing about. I've been to Hawaii. I haven't been there yet. I'll have to make a trip. Really? Yeah, I think I think so. You guys are gonna tell me where to go. Yeah, I'm gonna go. Otherwise, I'm just gonna wander in all the touristy parts. Yeah, that's uh they'll ask me for directions because I do look a little Hawaiian.

SPEAKER_06 8:58

Oh, yeah. You don't look like a little Hawaiian.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

You look exactly Hawaiian.

SPEAKER_04 9:05

Do I think I I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

I get Samoan a lot too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

You got to know about me.

SPEAKER_03 9:11

Every time I'm like I'm in the elevator, people are like, are you Samoan? Yeah. Um, but thank you. Yeah, yeah. No, but thank you.

SPEAKER_04 9:18

Well, no, no, but thanks. I'll take it. I'll I'll I'll look Hawaiian. I mean, sure, why not? I mean we're all indigenous, right?

SPEAKER_06 9:27

I mean, I looked like last time I was in Hawaii, somebody came up and asked me where the good diving spot was. And I was like, is it because I look Hawaiian? And then I realized I was wearing like red trunks and I looked like a lifeguard.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

The first time I went to uh first time I went to New Zealand was for a film festival in this little town called um Waidoa. And um little bitty town, kind of reminding my hometown, actually. It was cool. A lot of Mahdi people and it was just really awesome. And um, but I was driving across country. Got picked up at the airport by Merita Mitte, um, filmmaker, legendary filmmaker. Legendary, yeah. And she picked me and Bert up at the airport and said, You're not bloody flying across the country. I'm gonna drive you. So she made us get out of the airport and drove us across the country and it was so beautiful. Yeah we would stop on these little, these little like turkey leg stands and get food and like eat at fancy restaurants. It was amazing. Nice. I was in the middle of a breakup and I was just like wounded, but I was just felt cared for in this car being like driven across country. Yeah. We went to her house. She was like that. She was like that. Yeah, we went to her house, it was beautiful. Yeah, she kind of knew what you needed when you didn't know, you know? Yeah. And um, but I, you know, I'm I'm also a tourist and I'm like buying clothing and I'm going to like we're stopping gift shops. And we show up the first day, and I am rocking like the Atieroa beanie. I have like a hoodie on with like a totem, like a I think a god or something of, you know, like and I'm standing there, and we're talking to a group of Mahdi, and I they're all looking at me funny, and I'm like, what is going on? I'm thinking to myself, then I start thinking, I'm like, oh my god, I'm wearing like gift shop called. Essentially, like I came to like some native place in America and wore like a gas station native shirt and like native land hat or like something that said Comanche or something, you know, like went into this community and like looked ridiculous, and I quickly went to my car and changed. It was really interesting though, like we're talking a little bit about some spiritual stuff and things and maybe the the undead or whatever. But um, I was in this bar at in in Wida, and um it was really beautiful. It was like late night, guitars came out, and the Mahdi were just musical people. Yeah, just like singing, everybody was singing these songs all night. Amazing. And um the bartender was this Mahdi woman, and she came and stood next to me at one point. We'd talked and I was ordering drinks or whatever. She came and stood next to me later. And she was like, You come from medicine people, don't you? And I said, Yeah, my grandpa was a medicine man, and you know, my grandma was too. And I kind of told her my lineage a little bit as far as that goes. Stuff that you don't usually talk about, you know, but to a stranger. And uh she was like, I I I can tell, like I can feel it, you know, and she she said, I do too. And she said, I have this kind of basically told me that she had this gift that was kind of a curse that she could stand her her gift was that she could stand with people and know if they were sick. And that was both a good thing, but also a curse because people would get upset with her if she would tell her they're sick and they don't feel it. Yeah, exactly. And um she we talked a lot about medicine and healing, but it was just like a really powerful amazing night, you know, this little like small town, Marty town, you know. It was really cool, really good experience.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 13:20

I I have uh uh I was driving across the country one time and um I had to I was driving with with my friend Marty Tubels. He worked at this uh you know Marty? Yeah. You know Marty?

SPEAKER_04 13:33

Of course I do too. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 13:35

You guys know Marty? Oh yeah. We he used to work at a at a gallery, um, and we had to go pick up this artist's work, but he did all encaustic paintings, so they were all painting it in wax. Oh wow. And uh we had to pick up his work in LA and bring it out here. And we didn't have a refrigerated truck, so we had to drive through the night in order to get the work here without it melting in the back of the of the vehicle. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 13:58

And uh what kind of art was it?

SPEAKER_06 14:00

These paintings. Encaustic, they're like wax and colored wax. Um But we were we were driving across and we were, you know, trying to trying to freak each other out and we were driving through like Navajo Nation, you know. And uh this this we kind of landed at this point that was kind of interesting to me, and I'd I'd I'd be intrigued to hear your guys' take on it. But uh we were like, do you think that in order to see things, like see into the the spectral realm, you know, into that into that world, do you have to be raised on it? Like are there dendrites that need to connect in your brain in order to provide access to it? And in a world that denies it, I think there's something to that for sure.

SPEAKER_04 14:49

I think always, but yeah, I think the the the you can be open to it though. Yeah, you have to be open to it, and that's what creates that pathway is is your your spiritual self being able to accept what you're seeing. You know, a lot of people close it off, you know, we we ignore it because we're on our phones. We we have people that are just um you know, just uh don't want to deal with that part of of reality. Because it is, it's real. There there's other realms that we don't even connect to. And and I think we've lost that as human as humans, you know, because you know, we used to sit around fires and create shadow works on the on the thing and and you know, all these things that connected us to those realms. Right. And I think that because technology and yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 15:46

Why are you bringing that up? Chinupa. It's the dark, okay. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:50

It's the dark. There's a new article that came out about Chanupa, and the title of it is Chinuopa Hansville. Uh whistles whistles in the dark.

SPEAKER_04 16:03

He's a night whistler. Just like in the dark.

SPEAKER_06 16:08

It's daytime. I just found a corner. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

Or it's like your your mentality's dark. Yeah, that's what's the publication?

SPEAKER_06 16:23

Cultured.

SPEAKER_03 16:24

Cultured magazine.

SPEAKER_06 16:25

Culture. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:26

That's a good magazine. They should uh do a little reading about culture because uh they would quickly know the quick Google search.

SPEAKER_07 16:35

I know.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Can't whistle in the can't whistle.

SPEAKER_04 16:38

Maybe that's where they chose documents they were like, what what what kind of things in in your particular tribes that are a thing? Like in in why I was raised on Rosebud Reservation, we could not have the windows open, we couldn't have the shades up. Uh there's no whistling at night. And uh what was the other big one was if you see somebody walking, you have to know who they are in order to pick them up. Right. Because it could be you know a deer person or it could be a we had a little of that.

SPEAKER_03 17:13

They would always tell us to look at their feet. Yeah, look at their feet.

SPEAKER_04 17:16

Look at their feet. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they look at their feet. Yeah. That's how you know you get good. Foot fetish. Foot fetish. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:24

Really survive in our people.

SPEAKER_06 17:26

Yeah, we my you know, to this day, my mom, the the closing all your windows, you know, pulling the shades at night.

SPEAKER_03 17:32

I dated someone that that wasn't a part of ours, but I dated someone from up north that windows had to be shut. Yeah, shut and closed. And also no utensils like a knife or anything or a fork in the pan.

SPEAKER_04 17:47

Yeah, no, nothing in the pan. Exactly. That was the other thing, yeah. That was a big thing.

SPEAKER_06 17:52

Yeah, my my grandfather was knife clan, so I grew up, and to this day, like I could not put a uh knife overheat. Yeah. Like in any way, shape, or form. And even when I see it, I cringe, you know, and I'm like, you know, I watch like Chef's Table and stuff like that, you know.

SPEAKER_03 18:08

I mean clan stuff, I can't eat alligator, you know, I can't eat alligator or turtle or like um I can't eat buffalo. Yeah, damn, really. Oh, what?

SPEAKER_06 18:19

Yeah. That's crazy. Wow, that is crazy, dude. I know. I haven't had it for like a couple of years. How'd your clan survive up there? It's not a clan thing, it's just uh um for the ceremony.

SPEAKER_04 18:29

Your per your personal like medicine.

SPEAKER_06 18:31

Yeah, like I'm how long forever? Uh until I don't uh run this this ceremony, but as long as it's in my responsibility, yeah. Can't do it.

SPEAKER_04 18:40

Yeah. Yeah, in mine uh uh when I got my name, uh my name uh my medicine name is uh Mato Wakan, which means holy bear. And that comes from when I did my first sweat. I passed out and when I passed out this blue bear came out of my body and went around the whole sweat lodge and it went back into my body. And the medicine man uh chose that name and he told me that I have real powerful medicine that I had uh was supposed to tell stories for for uh you know, for my life. And that the two things I can't do is I'm not supposed to kill anything and if I end up killing something then I have to sacrifice for it. You can't hunt I can't hunt anymore. Yeah. And I was I think I was uh twelve or thirteen. Uh-huh. But I did you know, when I did my manhood ceremony I did kill a deer. So it was it was you know, it was a hard thing and I had to sacrifice for that. So and and it is uh it's either gotta be a a s uh a piercing for sacrifice where I you know I have to pierce or I have to give up something.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

I just imagine like the the the the huckster in me. Yeah imagines you imagines you just like at your lodge, like letting all the hunters bring you food.

SPEAKER_04 20:06

Just placing pellets on your food. Well luckily I can still fish. Yeah, okay. You know. And the medicine man said if you're starving, you can, you know, feed yourself if you need to feed yourself.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

So you gotta like, you gotta like, that's where like running buffalo off cliffs came from. You gotta you gotta like find tricks to ways to do it. I just jump deer.

SPEAKER_04 20:32

I was that's I did. Actually, that's how I ended up killing that deer. Is is I I was doing my my manhood ceremony, and part of that is um you know, we're taken out to the wilderness and we're just given a knife, and that's how you you have to survive for a few days. And um when you're little, they don't tell you when you're when you're performing it, they don't tell you how long. So you're like you gotta prepare for everything. So like the first day I made a fire and you know, and I decided that berries weren't gonna cut it for me. I'd just be dead. Yeah. I just I only have very far. And so this was uh in the mid-80s, and I had just literally watched ramble like 15 times. Oh yeah, that's what you need, that's the medicine you need that ramble. And um what I did was I I made a pit and I made uh the the little sticks in there, the pungy sticks, and uh I made it right next to a deer trail, and uh I waited for the deer to come down the trail and I jumped out and the deer ran right into the pit. Wow, and I scared it. I just I just scared it. But I did like who wants it suffer a really horrible death. No, I as soon as he as soon as he fell into it, he was you know, he was struggling, but I did, you know, end up s cutting his throat and you know, did doing all the stuff. But that was, you know, an important part of of being the warrior that I was supposed to be, um as as a man, you know, providing and stuff like that. So Uh yeah, uh th there's all that stuff. But getting back to, you know, talking about spirituality stuff, um, you know, I I think there's some truth to that because the other night I'd fallen asleep, I left my windows open. And I left the shade up and just so those other hunters could bring that food in and drop it through the window.

SPEAKER_05 22:23

No high on the window.

SPEAKER_04 22:25

No, it w it was it was it was a warm Buffalo Power nice night, and you know, I turned off the air conditioning, I just wanted the breeze to come through the house or through my room. And um in my sleep I could hear my name being called and it would happen like three or four times. And so the third time I woke up and I was like, that's gotta be a dream. Can I ask you what the accent was? That's it. No, it was just a normal sound. No, it wasn't like uh it wasn't anything. It was just like the actually it sounded like my brother. Wow. And and I was like I I kind of like looked around and I saw that the the moon was nice and bright out, I couldn't see anything out the window. I was like, I should close that window. And I'm like, no, just leave it for it. So I went laid back down and I I turned on my side and I was just about to fall asleep and it happened again. I heard my name and I literally sat up so fast. I'm like, What do you want? What do you what what is it? And there was no answer or anything like that. And I didn't look I didn't look out the window because that was the thing. Yeah, you know, if you look out the window, the spirit could take you out through there. And that's that's why you don't, you know, keep the shades closed. So I got up, turned off, turned on the light, and like literally didn't look out the window and I shut him when I closed the shade without looking out the window. And uh I was like later on I felt you know kind of childish about it, but I was like, that that was real. I heard my name. I know I heard my name. And you know, it was it was it sounded just like my brother. Wow and that's what woke me up. I was like, what is he doing here? You know, in my dream or you know, my s my state of being. And it was just like you know, it you know, it freaked me out, but didn't really scare me, but I was just like, okay, yeah, time to do some more smudging and you know, protect myself and you know, bring out the medicine bag and see what's up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 24:25

One time when I was living up in Washington, um, I moved up there from Phoenix, Arizona, and uh it was probably like the first year that I was living in Washington State. And um uh the weed in Washington. You smoked weed? I smoked weed. You smoked the weed, I smoked the weed. I smoked the grass. Yeah. Well, what the what I was gonna say, why I said the first is the weed in Washington was on a whole different level than what I was getting in Arizona. Oh yeah. Right? So I smoked the fish. It was it was fresh, yeah, it wasn't shaped like a tire. Yeah. Or the somebody cut the bottom of a lawn mower.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

It just pops, pops as you're smoking it, all the seeds just pop, pop, pop, pop.

SPEAKER_06 25:20

So I I smoked too much and I got sick, like really sick. I got really sick, and I was like, gonna throw up. And uh, and I couldn't get the the I hated throwing up, so I I like just rode that nausea. And uh, but I was tired and I was high. So I climbed into the bathtub because I was like, well, it's cool and cold. Well, I figured if I throw up I can just rinse it down, you know? And um, and I'm you know, super high and I'm sick and I'm laying there in this in this tub, um, just hoping, you know, my head, everything's spinning, and I'm hoping it'll go away. God, I know what that feels like. So everybody who knows that feeling. And I hear chinupa. And I pop up and I'm home alone.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Oh and it's dark.

SPEAKER_06 26:14

You know, ever I didn't turn a single light on because I was I was that high, that nauseous and spinny, you know, that I was like I'm just sitting the bathtub, I'm I'm just gonna be in the bathtub and it's fine. And I hear my name and uh I pop up and I was like, Nope, I gotta get out of this tub. So I climbed out of the tub and I laid in my bed and went to sleep. And the next day I was thinking about that moment, and I was like, I had watched The Doors. Yeah. And uh Jim Morrison. Jim Morrison.

SPEAKER_04 26:48

You know, oh, Val Comer lay naked.

SPEAKER_06 26:50

Yeah, uh but but you know, the vomit death, you know, kind of kind of scenario, and I was like, I remember in that movie he had an Indian man come to him. So it's like I think he repaid it. I think that was like it's still line. Jim Morrison. I was like, I think Jim Morrison just paid back brown out girls. Is that just like Jim?

SPEAKER_04 27:27

Do you now was the voice familiar to you?

SPEAKER_06 27:32

No, no, not a familiar voice. It wasn't familiar. I thought somebody had come into the house. You know, and uh it was me. I was there. It was you, yeah. I was there. It was either you or or Jim Van, you know.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

Pierre was like, go get me a sum bump deer. Go get me a deer. Real hungry.

SPEAKER_04 27:52

I can't kill nothing out of it.

SPEAKER_03 27:56

Get out of the tub, you fucking shitty hunter. Uh yeah, you know, like I think that like the work that artists do, sometimes this stuff can latch on. Because I think that like in a way that we have to be open, if like talking about being open to seeing things or or or like the other side, the other realm visiting us or whatever. Similar way, you have to be open as a storyteller, as an artist. I remember when I did this documentary about songs that we have. This may be the last time. It was pretty heavy, like doing that documentary. Very, very good. Thank you. And I was visiting a lot of singers in rural Oklahoma and just visiting with them. And these songs are all tied to death. They're either death songs, they are survival songs, trelleteers songs, they are and they're all in code, and or they're like these people would tell stories about their grandma saying this song. You know, it was always tied to someone that's no longer here. And you then you would hear scary story, you know, you're just on these like a lot of these like places in rural Oklahoma that like just felt you just felt things and it was heavy, and and then there's stories about people passing, and then they'd sing these songs, and you have to be open and accept the things. And if you're gonna be a good interviewer, you have to be open and talk and yeah, make them feel comfortable.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:24

And I think you take it on a little bit. And at the end of that shoot, I called this man that I know, Elder, and I was telling him, we were just talking, we talked like three hours. I think we talked till till three in the morning. And I was telling him my experience about how heavy it was. And um he prayed with me and sang songs just on the phone and was talking to me about those things and how they latch onto you, yeah, you know, when you're being open to them. And I could feel that, you know, like like very much so. Like felt that was all these things were kind of hanging on me. And I didn't have a lot of time to, you know, rid myself of them. I was doing an interview back to back, you know, as months throughout the summer. You were probably doing it shot with you then. Yeah, and I still feel that I still feel it, you know, like it didn't completely go away. And then you kind of each project and each thing that you're trying to do, you tack on new things to it, you know. And and I think that like that's something I'm interested in. It's like how do you kind of like keep the balance of like keeping yourself safe and cleansing? And I remember I was in this really dark place just traveling a lot and showing films, not making money. And I went to this um the Lakota Res, I can't remember what community it was, but um, you know, I was showing films and stuff and and giving a talk to these students. I thought they were gonna be like high school students or something.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:51

They were all like around eight years old or younger. And I was like, oh shit, I gotta think rethink my whole call approach. So I started showing 1491's videos, which like helped, you know. But I used to remember this kid kept looking at me in the front. This little Lakota boy was like looking at me and just real serious, had these eyes that kind of look through you, you know. Yeah, and um, I kind of it didn't go well, you know, like they were just like, Who is this dude? Like, come on, man. And I did, y'all have any questions? And that boy raised his hand. And um, and I was like, I called on him and he said, Um, he just looked at me and goes, Are you sad? And it was like somebody splitting you open and seeing you for what was going on with you at that moment. Yeah, and that I always think about that boy, like what's he doing now? You know, but my my youngest is like that. I stumbled through the answer, like I just I was like, but yeah, I'm about to try to, you know, like and I was sad, yeah you know, and he saw it, yeah, and he just perceived it as crazy.

SPEAKER_04 31:53

Yeah. Yeah, my youngest is like that ever since you know he was a baby. Just he would look at people and he would see who they were.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:02

And you know, if he if he was cool, then I knew that person was cool. Right. But if he didn't want to be around.

SPEAKER_03 32:09

My son's like that too. Like he can see I think I'm like that to a degree, but like my son's like that. Like if I'm in a bad mood or if I'm like if something got a phone call that was bad or something, my s or or or something's going on, my son will kind of stand and kind of pace in the corner and watch me. Yeah. And then he'll find an opportunity and he'd say, and he'll ask me if I'm okay, you know, or like what's going on, or what was that phone call about, you know, like who'd you talk to, you know. And I can just tell that he's perceiving stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_04 32:39

Yeah, wait, wait till he gets older. He says he's just gonna say, get your shit together. It's enough of that. Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:45

Straighten up that, yeah, it's straighten up. My grandma, though, my white grandma, she was uh a person that very much saw things and you know, was connected and she got she got they got kind of ran out of the town that my dad was born in. Um she told a man he was gonna die. She used to read fortunes. Oh wow. And um he did. And her famil the the family came to her and said they were sorry for laughing when she told him that. And they ended up moving, but like she and my aunt great aunt moved into this um I I grew up part-time with this where their house, which was a uh old funeral home.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

And that was crazy. Yeah, because like they lived in my grandma lived where the family lived, and then my aunt lived in the um section where the the caskets were, so the doors were bigger and stuff, but like and then my great aunt got dementia slowly though, and it just started with like her seeing people around. And I think I told you this the other night, like there was a little girl that would always be in her room and would jump on her bed, but then sit, collapse on the bed and cry. Oh, wow. And she would ask me to tell that little girl to leave, and I would go in there and be like, fuck it. But it was scary, you know, like always kind of surrounded by this talk and hearing things. I would always hear stuff too, you know, like in this funeral home. And uh you can hear I would always hear hear the phone hang up, no one was in there, or I'd hear the door shut in the middle of the house, no one was in there. And um my grandma would run into people and she would she would say, I like I ran into someone in the dark, you know, there was always someone like a body or something, you know. Um what's really interesting is my my aunt and my dad, they weren't like not they didn't they loved each other, but they didn't kind of um communicate a lot back then. And my aunt had passed away, and my grandma was moving to another house to uh simplify things, smaller house. Yeah, and my dad and his sister moved all of her stuff out, and as they were moving her stuff out throughout the day, they just started talking more and more and more, and they became close again, and it was something to do with that house. Yeah like once they got everything out and moved her into a new place, they were like close brother and sister again. It was very wow, actually, very interesting.

SPEAKER_06 35:13

We have an old house, it's my grandparents' house. Um my great-grandfather built it, and it was in this town called Elbow Woods. And uh Elbow Woods was like probably a mile away from from our last Earthlodge village that was called Like a Fish Hook.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

And what names? Elbow Woods, Like a Fish Hook?

SPEAKER_06 35:36

Yeah, well, it's because the Missouri River did a 90-degree turn right there. Uh-huh. So it was fertile, fertile, fertile land. And um in the 19 late 40s, early 50s, um, they flooded it. So they built the Garrison Dam and now it's all Lake Sicagawea, and like 42% of our reservation is underneath this uh this lake. But that house was built in Elba Woods and they put it up on on a couple of trucks back in the fifties and moved it. And they say it's was the last house to move out of Elba Woods. And um I remember there was a story my my grandma, my Norwegian grandma, she was hoping that that house would fall off of those trucks when it came down the road. Oh my gosh. Um 'cause it just had so much history, you know? And uh it didn't. It made it. And it made it uh it's to where it is right now in in Lucky Mound. And uh about ten years ago the basement flooded and it's just become kind of like more and more less you can't live in it anymore. Yeah. And uh I have this like dream of fixing it back up because when my parents divorced, uh I lived there as a kid and it was nothing but happy, you know, to me. But thinking about that in relationship to my parents, um, my mom, her siblings, and like their relationship to that place is it's heavy. Yeah, you know? And um yeah, I think that that process of of moving through all of that stuff, boxing it up, taking it out, you know, kind of things. Um allows you to move through some of those those feelings that get like trapped in the walls, right? They like get recorded in them. Yeah. Um but that that place is spooky. Yeah. It's a spooky place. There are there is a an area in the basement that I have probably looked into maybe three times in my life and did a full 360 when I walked past it. Uh where we used to store all of our um my grandma would can everything, you know. Uh she had a nice big garden and there was always this dark, tank little there was like one overhead light you had to walk halfway down with the pull the strings on, you know. And so it was a infinite void. Oh wow. You know, and every time my grandfather's old uh shop, I used to like sitting in his shop while he would tinker. Um little little little guy breathing in old gold 100s uh while my grandpa worked down in his little little studio and um I have to walk past that thing. Yeah. Like every single time. And oh man, I just I was like, I don't know what it is about that spot. That one spot. That one spot man was always something something back there. And I was like, maybe it's all those old roots, you know? Maybe it's all those vegetables, you know.

SPEAKER_03 38:35

Maybe pulling up pulling in my great aunt's part of the house in the bathroom, in the bathroom there was a drain and four stains from where a table was, and it was the old embalming room where they would embalm the bodies. Damn. And every time you go into that bathroom, you're just like, oh shit, you know, like freaky. Um, I had a story my uh great-great-grandfather was a uh maybe great-great great, something like that, way up there. But um there was a story I grew up knowing that he um was being chased by uh US Marshals. Yeah. And he evaded them by turning himself into a log. And it was a story I grew up with, and just always heard it. I don't remember I don't remember the first time I heard it because it was always there.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:30

And um they said that uh there was an elder woman that came that was that came over on the trail, and she was a medicine woman shapeshifter, and my grandfather and her would almost sharpen each other's skills, one would go out and take change, and the other one would look for that person to see if they so could or not, you know, yeah, training each other. And um there's a point in Oklahoma where the traditional stickball game was banned because too many people were getting killed. It was brutal. And it was because one ceremonial ground would play against another ceremonial ground and they would battle it out. It's called the Little Brother of War, you know, they battle it out. And uh this game was so rough, and they w they realized it's because you're playing another ceremonial ground, you're playing another town, essentially. And so they stopped playing that game and they made it to where they split the players in the middle east and west, and east plays with east, so you're playing with other ceremonial grounds against your ceremonial grounds and their so people still got hurt, yeah, people still died, but it was less violent because it you're fighting against your brothers as well, you know. And um so, but there was a period, of course, where people were like against changing the game and they wanted to do it traditionally. So they would still have these, not really underground, but they would still have these town against town games. And these two warriors came to my grandpa and asked him to doctor their sticks because they were about to play. And he said, No, um we're not allowed to play that game anymore. We have to play this other way. Like I'm not allowed to do that, I'm not gonna doctor your sticks. And they got in this big fight, and I don't know what happened, but enough that he shot both of them and killed them. They got a fight and he shot both of them and killed them. And um he uh and he left, and then they were the family of those came after him and US Marshals were after him. He went out and hid in the woods and would go and and change, and that's how he hid from them. And um, I always knew that. And then you know, my aunts were telling me, you know, your Uncle Robert saw him change, you should ask him. My Uncle Robert was in his 90s, I was probably 13. My Uncle Robert was in his 90s at this point, and uh they were like, You should ask him. And we were having a family gathering and stuff, and they were like, You should ask him. So I did. I asked my uncle Robert, and he was sitting in my room with me, and he was like, Yeah. He said, I used to every morning go out, my mom or grandma can't remember, would wash my face in medicine and send me out with a plate of food. And I would go to where I knew whereabouts he was, and I would call his name out, and he would change back into human form and eat, and then I'd take the plate and I'd take it back. But he said, whenever you change and you change back, you can't see good. And so he would always had a gun near him, and so he would always point a gun at me, and I would have to yell at him, it's me, Robert, it's me, Robert, and then he'd put the gun down, and then he'd eat his food, I'd wait, and then I'd take the food back. And um, you know, fascinated, right? Like and then years later, after my uncle had passed, I was talking to my other uncle, we were all talking about that story, and my uncle Harry was talking about it, and he said, You know, that's why he had those scars on his face. I always thought my uncle Robert had chicken puck scars all over his face on one side. And he said, No, that was like bird shot. Oh, really? He shot him one time and it hit him right here on the side of his face. That's where all those marks were. Yeah. And um, then years later, I heard more of the story that was told to another uncle. And my uncle Robert was actually there, and my grandma Azora was there when the two men were killed. They were on a wagon. And my uncle was going to check on my grandpa and saw the m one of the men laying there, and he said they got on the um wagon and went back home. And when they got home, he said, My grandpa made medicine and put it around the perimeter of the house, and he told all the kids, he said, Don't go past this, whatever you do. And that those two guys' families members camped outside of the house outside of that perimeter. Oh, wow. And waited and were yelling and waiting and camping. And my Aunt Spot, who passed away probably when I was like in my twenties, uh, she's one of my oldest elders. My Aunt Spot had gone out to get water and had passed that perimeter and they grabbed her and they had to pull her back, and like, but that was just part of this one story. And he he also said, My my uncle also pulled out this picture of a uh of a petrified wood and something about the oils and the light and the water makes it almost psychedelic, like lots of colors. Yeah. And he said, This is what Uncle Robert said it looked like. He said that whenever he had changed into the log, he said it was like this, except that it would the colors would move on the mark. Would like move. Wow. Like it was alive. That's pretty cool. And allegedly, I haven't seen the paper, but people have told me that there's an old newspaper article from uh Spaulding or Sosakwa that says, or maybe he Holdenville, that says um uh Nogos Harjo, bear har Harjo, so crazy bear, um he got let off on subfence, but eluded capture from U.S. Marshals by turning himself into a law.

SPEAKER_04 45:14

That'd be something to find a frame. I know I need to find it. Yeah. Yeah, have that up uh in your den. That's pretty cool. Yeah, I you know, where I grew up, there's a lot of stories of like um, you know, we have like the tall man and we have the little people and uh you know, of course, Big Brother Sasquatch. Yeah. And then uh, you know, you What's the difference between you as tall man and Sasquatch? Uh tall man is like the tall man is is Bigfoot. No. Yeah. It's it's a it's a a person who is like as tall as a tree. Uh huh. And he hides behind the trees. Uh huh. And when you're you're walking and you he can snatch you through the trees. Uh huh. So he uses the trees as cover. Right. And uh um there are stories like, you know, in the forties and fifties where people are driving down the street and you'll see him walking along the the trees, along the cars, you know, he he when he walks, he walks as fast as the car driving. You know, things like that. Um then you have like, you know, the deer people and or the deer woman who's you know was in your show. Yeah um that was crazy, huh? So filming that like Yeah, it was it was it was crazy and just like recreating boarding school and stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:38

You could feel one hard drill. What? How did you forget to bring the I'm sorry, I forgot the dessert. I know. Don't you love it?

SPEAKER_06 46:50

My uh my boys like to call me Bapa, which is dried meat.

unknown 46:58

They're all mad.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_06 47:01

I forgot. They all got popsicles.

SPEAKER_03 47:03

Yeah, they got popsicles. Our kids are playing DD right now. Yeah, I know. Which is pretty great.

SPEAKER_06 47:10

Well, I had Ginger close the windows even though it's warm out. Yeah. So then we wouldn't hear it.

SPEAKER_03 47:16

Chinoopah's son is like the storyteller of the game, and he plays literal like score music from his computer to like to an ant. He does.

SPEAKER_04 47:26

That's what we did when we played too when I was young. You really? I know. We had mixtapes of uh.

SPEAKER_06 47:32

I never played DD until last uh Christmas. We got him this set and uh we've got a going, an ongoing game, or whatever it's called. Uh adventure. A quest. A quest. Um it is cool though. And and it is the uh the kind of collective imagination, you know, where you can dream up these things. And I think that there is, you know, this tie and tether between um uh storytelling and uh that access point to to the mystical.

SPEAKER_03 48:08

Well just like I mean, set going back to this, like when we were making the Deer Lady episode, we had recreated the this boarding school. Yeah, and so all these kids were dressed. And this struck me because you think of boarding schools and you think of um you think of it kind of takes me back to two conversations I had. My grandpa or my one of my uncles told me this, my uncle Jimmy. He said, you know, boarding school is a bad thing, but I also learned how to be a man there, you know. And we also had our friends and survived, you know. And then I had one time I was at an airport and this woman recognized me and she's like, Hey, she's like, You gotta make a film about boarding school sometime, but about the good times. She was like, 'Cause it wasn't all bad. Like we had each other, you know, and it was really funny.

SPEAKER_01 48:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:58

And it made me think, you know, that made me think. And then but whenever we had these kids and they were all in costume as the boarding school kids, they were having fun. Yeah. Like they were laughing. There was some heaviness, but like they were laughing. They were cutting up and you know, getting out of hand. And I was just like, I thought back to like what it would really be like is like they were just native kids too, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:20

And well, as a product of a boarding school. And I was literally at the end of the the kill the Indian, save the man thing. And you know, and to what boarding schools are now were like very supportive, very, you know, open about culture and and you know, and the boarding school I went to, uh St. Joseph's Indian School in Chamberlain um South Dakota, we uh when I first showed up, I was in third grade. Um we were kind of forced to be there because uh my my mom and dad had gotten divorced and my mom had a a breakdown. She had a mental breakdown. So we were, you know, in order for her to keep us, she had to send some of us to boarding school.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:09

And uh the most traumatic thing for me um was the first day I was there they cut my hair.

SPEAKER_03 50:17

Well that's what you told uh that's what I was gonna get to is you had you speak that day.

SPEAKER_04 50:22

Yeah, we we Well you asked if you could speak and you did. Yeah. Um but it was like, you know, my hair was down to my butt and and traditionally the only time that in our in the Lakota culture when you cut your hair is when you're mourning. Yeah. So I thought, you know, my mom's dead. Right. That's what I thought. Right. And it took me like three weeks to realize she wasn't. And it was it was difficult. It was difficult for me to be there. You know, and to what you're saying, it was some of the most informative parts of my life. Yeah. Um, I I have friends still to this day that we went to boarding school together. Uh they're all doctors and lawyers and whatnot, because we got a top-notch education. You ask them for money and yeah. Yeah. And we not for you. Not for me. Not not for me. I don't I'm a film worker film worker. I don't make money. Um But we, you know, we did have, you know, some great times. Uh you know, some of the my fondest memories is is, you know, playing tag with a ball. But that's survival too, right? Yeah, that's all that's survival.

SPEAKER_03 51:33

But it uh war right now, they're being bombed, like they're still finding humanity. Yeah, yeah. And the kids will always find a way to to well that was a figure. That was a really powerful moment. We were on set and there was a young pawnee boy who had who um Laney, his relative, yeah, his auntie worked with us and was like, you know, he wants to cut his hair. Yeah. And he said he'll do it for this scene. Yeah. Which like was scary to do in the first place, you know. Like, but he said that he wanted to do it. And um, so he was we were in there setting up and it was the crew. And I remember everyone was talking about shots and lights and things like that. And Pierre asked if he could say something, and Pierre said, Hey, this what we're about to shoot is this what we're about to shoot is the um one of the most painful moments of my life. And I just want everyone to remember that. Yeah. As we're doing this, not to take it lightly. And you told the story about thinking that your mother had died. Yeah. And it was just a real powerful moment to like remind everyone. Because when you're on a film crew, you're not always thinking about that.

SPEAKER_04 52:46

Yeah, we don't we don't think about the the um the path uh of how we're st telling the story and where that path goes. Right. You know, because w once we put art out there, we put out any art, you know, whether it's music or a painting or you know, sculpture or whatever, once it leaves our hands, it's not ours anymore. Right. It's it's there. Right. You know, and and people want to interpret it however they interpret it. You know. But I think if you do it with intentions yeah, you give it its best shot at as what it is being interpreted as well. And to this day, I still can't watch that scene. I can't. Right. Yeah. It breaks me. Yeah, it really does.

SPEAKER_03 53:26

It's painful. It's crazy to think I mean all of my family, up to my mom when they were in boarding schools. Yeah. You know, it was just something that you did. Yeah. You know. And you know, my grandma was like like Miss Haskell, you know, like I had pictures of her from like it was crazy. I was at this art show in um in uh Tulsa, the Muskogee Art Show. And um the Muskogee Art Fair. And um me and my daughter were walking in there, and uh my mom was on the other side, and we walked into this one entrance, and my daughter said, Uh that looks like Mimi. And I looked at the wall, this artist's wall, and I was like, That's grandma. And it was her as a Haskell princess that she'd she'd got at their homecoming with this Pawnee man who was who was the man, the king, or whatever. And um, they were in traditional clothes, and there's a photo of them, but it's a photo that I it's a it was a collage used with photo painted over and stuff, but it was an angle that I didn't recognize. I'd recognized the same image from a different angle.

SPEAKER_06 54:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:39

And I went up to the guy and I said, That's my grandma. And he looked at me kind of like, yeah, right. And he goes, Oh yeah?

SPEAKER_06 54:46

That's my grandma.

SPEAKER_03 54:47

And I said, That's Johnny Mae, my grandma. And he looked at me again, he goes, You're right. He said, That is your grandma. He said, Her name was Johnny. And I was like, What he was like, My mom was her best friend in boarding school.

SPEAKER_01 54:59

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 54:59

And my mom was a photographer, and my mom took this photo. And I have always seen and grew up with a photo that another photographer took from a different angle at the same moment.

SPEAKER_04 55:10

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 55:11

And his mom had taken the photo from this angle, and that's this painting he's been painting and using in imagery for years. He uses his mom's photos. And um he was like, You have no idea how many people have come to me and said, Oh, I think that's my mom, or I think that's my grandma. He's like, But you're the first one that it actually was. So I went and got my mom and brought her over, and she was just like, Whoa. And so he was telling these stories about his mom, and that was her, they were best friends in my boarding school, and his mom always carried a camera and took photos, and she had taken an angle that I'd never seen.

SPEAKER_06 55:42

So I've been I've been playing around.

SPEAKER_03 55:44

He didn't give me that painting.

SPEAKER_04 55:47

So if you're listening at the end, he could have gave me for a price for a small generation of that photograph that he's been working with.

SPEAKER_06 55:59

Uh I've been thinking about, and this is, you know, I'm tying this into to uh some of these stories, but I've been thinking about time and like time travel uh recently and just like indigenous kind of broad spectrum ideas of what time is versus like the colonial capital linear time narrative. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:23

And Bobby Martin is the artist's name. Do you know Bobby Martin?

SPEAKER_06 56:27

Uh-uh. I don't.

SPEAKER_03 56:28

That's the photo. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_06 56:32

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 56:33

Is that the photo that's the photo his mom took.

SPEAKER_06 56:36

That his mom took. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 56:38

Oh no, no, no. That's the photo his mom took. Oh. And so the photo I just showed you was this angle that I grew up with. Yeah. Wow. That's crazy. Isn't that crazy?

SPEAKER_06 56:47

That's crazy. So I so I was I've been thinking about time and how time works differently. Um, and just this, you know, what what you had mentioned about, you know, can you tell a story about boarding school that that tells about all of the good times, right? Like just probably 75% of the time. Right. You know, just finding finding those moments.

SPEAKER_04 57:14

Right, right. Right.

SPEAKER_06 57:15

The vast majority of it was this other thing. Yeah. Um, but to deal with the trauma, we have to we have to bring it up and we have to talk about it because it was ignored and denied and not a part of the story in any way, shape, or form, right? So I've been thinking about like how um I'm really interested in in like speculative fiction. And Ginger just hyped me to a thing called speculative nonfiction. And um where you can tell a story in those gaps in history and fill it in with whatever you want. Whatever you want, whatever you can imagine, exaggerate, you know, do anything along those lines, and how that can not only benefit our relationship to the traumas we experienced for the future, but also how it can transform and actually heal those wounds in the past. You know, and and fill those stories in with the light, you know, with the joy, with all of that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_04 58:18

With all that stuff that can be.

SPEAKER_06 58:19

So that when we tell these stories to each other over and over, and when you have platforms to amplify stories, yeah, that the narrative is one uh that is contrary to the to the the mode and model that we're experiencing presently. And now I say all of that and and like we have we have to talk about the harms we've experienced as people, you know, but I think equally, if not more importantly, um we need to start telling each other about our joys in the in the face of those things. You know?

SPEAKER_03 58:52

Well, because that's real. I mean, like the joy, there's joy in survival, you know, like or we wouldn't survive.

SPEAKER_04 59:00

Yeah. I mean, as native people, we uh we wouldn't survive if we didn't laugh. No, we didn't see that's where our humor comes from. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 59:08

My my grandpa used to say it's amazing we got anything done at all. Yeah. He was like, yeah, it'd be the most sacred moment and somebody would make a joke. Yeah, exactly. In the sweat lodge, like wherever.

SPEAKER_03 59:22

At our ceremonial grounds, there's so many times where like the medicine man is making medicine, and yeah all of us kind of hang out and um just wait. A lot of times, whenever the songs are being sung, we're under the arbors. Yeah, it's more serious. But then when they're not being sung, in between we'll just be hanging out. Yeah. And uh it's some of the funniest shit I've ever heard come out of anyone's mouth. And it's so much laughter you know, surrounding that sacredness and something that was almost eradicated, you know. Totally. But like survived.

SPEAKER_06 59:53

But and that is the point, right? Like you said, like if if joy is not the reward at the end of making serious sacrifices and serious choices, yeah, what's the point?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:05

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I've had a a lot of people ask me lately, especially in the current environment in the film industry, uh, because you know, there's no work, there's nothing. Uh, but I had people ask me, why do you keep doing it? And I just say I friggin' love it. I find the joy in it every single day. I'm never doing the same thing every day. You know, I w I've worked, you know, I worked as a uh field technician for sprint, same thing every day. Right, right. I worked in retail, same thing every day. What'd you sell? Yeah, toys.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:44

I worked at a toy store once. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:46

And I sold uh I'm the worst employee ever, too.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:50

If I didn't have filmmaking, if I could film making, but I would not because it's all abstract to me. It's like something happens at home, I'm like, you know, I'm not coming to work tomorrow. Like I gotta go be with them.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:02

I was just like I've quit so many jobs.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:06

But uh finding the joy in in in what I'm doing is not hard. Right. And that's what makes you know that you know, my career is 30 years now. Thirty years I've been doing this. You know, I wish I had more money, but I enjoy it every day going in, you know, working and making shots happen. Yeah, it's hard work for it. Yeah, it's it I don't see it as hard work at all. I just see it as, you know, that that's what I do. Yeah. And you know, my my body is wearing out, you know, but my mind is slipping. My joint. My mind will slip eventually. Um you can ask my kids, yeah, it's slipping.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:50

But um no, it it it's I like having him on set, and I was bummed that you weren't after the pilot on the show, but I'll get you back. But um, I was telling somebody, it's like more than anything, it's like having a rabbit's foot. You know, like just having Pierre's presence there. I don't know what the fuck he does. You know, I don't know his job. Every calm.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:18

All it is just the vibe.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:20

It's like it's like there's a there's a uh recipe that I like to have in filmmaking. There's certain people that I like having there. I don't necessarily know what they do. The the I know it gets mad at me if I move something, but this is the subtraction of variables.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:36

Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:37

Yeah, it is. And and that's that's what it is. I I think that no matter what job I'm working, you know, and and even you know, where I live now and and my roommate, she's like, you know, when she's freaking out, I'm I'm just there calm. Right. You know, and I bring that to her, and I'm like, now do you see why you were freaking out? I mean, there's no reason for it, you know. And you know maybe you should have been a therapist. Maybe. Maybe that's what my medicine was. I I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:08

I I think that I I you went where it was needed to be.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:13

Yeah, that's what it is, onset.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:15

It's it's you know, all the the egos and the the It's funny though, because you've seen this industry change where there's like creators like me or like Zahn, like people that are friends of yours, all of a sudden are like, you know, like you've seen you it's not like you're just like working with a bunch of white people. Yeah, not that white people. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:35

The first first set I was on, I was the only brown person on the whole set. And it, you know, it kind of freaked me out. I was just like, okay, all right, this is what it is. Right. And you know, but I still, you know, some of those first people on the first set I ever worked on, I still know them, I still am friends with them. Right. And I I just bring that to everything because uh as when you're making a film, it isn't a solo effort. It it you know, when when Sterling says, Yeah, I make films, you know, he doesn't do them by himself. He's got a whole team. I mean I do them. Yeah, you got you come with you come with the idea. And and you know, people like me. I mean I could. You would be standing out there naked in the in the sandstorm.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:25

Somebody watch it though.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:26

Uh YouTube. Somebody would. What was cool though about Res Dogs was majority native. Yeah, we had these white crew people that came in, and at first it was a little like tense, yeah, not knowing where they were or whatever. But everyone fell in line and loved it.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:43

And like that's because I told them I'd beat their ass. That's right. That's why you bring Pierre. That's why you bring Pierre on every set. No, it was it with words or just like the look. Yeah. It's kind of both. Uh no, but like the fur when we were doing the pilot, uh you know, we were heavy into COVID and stuff like that. And uh I remember Huh? Old Dale was there. Yeah, exactly. But we I remember standing at the the old Macy's place in the on the loading dock, and uh Shanna comes up. Right. And we're kind of just standing there, we talk, we introduce each other. I'd I'd never met this person before. And when I find out that she's been doing this almost as long as I have, and we're just like, I'm like, oh, it's great, you know, we have a lot of native people on this and and everything, and we just kind of trail off. And we're standing there quietly. And I suddenly realize I have tears coming down my face. And it was just like this is a moment that I had worked so hard for my whole career. My whole career was like in this moment. And Shanna was there and she was she had more tears on her face than I did. And all I could tell It was wow. And I reached over, I gave her a big hug, and we were like, okay, let's get back to work.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:07

There were so many moments though on Res Dogs where it was like that, where it was just like, This is what we've all been hoping for. Some longer than others, you know. I remember you reminding me of that a lot, you know. Like I call Shanna my first line of defense. Yeah. Because um she was like, you know, she works costumes and so she works in uh in the wardrobe department, and like she will um that's for you, Shanna. And um she's one of the first people that the actors meet, and she sets the vibe. Yeah, like this is a native woman, yeah, and this is a native run show. Yeah, and she sets that vibe like automatically. She knows their family. She knows exactly because they're coming in early to get uh fitted, fitted, and so they they meet with that team first. Yeah. Her and Alyssa, and like they they just um it's it just kind of worked out to this way that was really beautiful. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:08

She's an incredible person. She's oh yeah, so cool. And uh, but you know, after that, you know, being on set and looking around and seeing all the brown faces, and you know, I was you know euphoric for a little while because I was just like, oh my god, this is this is it. We're doing this, we're doing this. And uh the pilot we were wheeling around the uh wheelchair with Tyka on for a silent monitoring camera, it was hilarious. But uh yeah, it was just like okay, you know, we're actually you know really gonna ha make this happen. And for a while when we first were supposed to do the pilot and we had to push because of COVID, right? Uh I thought, oh, it's God interfering. I know, I thought it was over. I know.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:58

Too many Indians in one place. It wasn't gonna let it happen.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:01

We're gonna make something happen and it ain't gonna happen. Yeah. And you know, I got I got a little worried. And uh and then two weeks later, when when you guys called me up and said, hey, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do we were one of the first productions to come back in, you know. Uh and I remember talking to a lot of my friends, and and they were like, Yeah, man, you guys are the only ones working, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:22

I'm like, wow, really? We were all masked up.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:27

Everyone had suntans, yeah, burns and shit with a mask. With a mask on. We all look like bandits or something.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:36

We'd see each other at night at the bar, forgetting what that who that person was, because we only knew what they look like with a mask off. So we'd see them in person be like, whoa. Like you look totally different.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:47

You didn't have to wear masks in bars after when you're a few drinks in Oklahoma.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:54

Protocol shift after Yeah, after a few drinks. You can't you can't whistle, but you don't have to wear a mask.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:06

Whistling in the dark. Cultured magazine. Everyone get the cook get a copy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:14

No, it's interesting about the uh um that that like story of of fuck, I mean ultimately generations of people working towards that culmination, right? Like this moment where you can see that and you know, you you're it brings tears to your eyes, but it like it also brings tears to like generations before his eyes, you know? Yeah. Just coming out of yours, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:39

One of the trippiest moments was before we started shooting and we did a script reading, and everyone was on a zoom, and it was just like all Indian. And like all these legendary actors are just like it was almost like the Brady Bunch when they're looking up at each other's hair. Everyone was like, whoa, like that's what we've been waiting for. Yeah. Yeah. That's a trip. It feels like a dream at Res Dogs. Because it's it happened.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:10

Yeah. Well, it's so unique. It was so you it's a new unique experience doing it and and us making it happen the way we did. And uh, you know, and just every day everyone was there to do it. Oh man, you could feel it in everyone. Everyone was like so excited. Yeah, yeah. And and it did, and never it never faded. No, it didn't all even all the way to the last day. Yeah, we were all there ready to go and just be, you know, be happy about it. And you know, and I know that the some of the the non-native people who worked on it were are just as happy and just as like excited to be there because you know you know, we had made a way to make the show without damaging life. Right. You know, because I mean we worked ten hour days and it was just you could have a life after that.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:06

And that's what we did on my new show, The Lowdown, and it was the same, you know, very different, but it was the same vibe. Like so many there were because you know, we were doing a lot of um uh tandem units at uh towards the end. So like there were multiple units going at the same time. So we had to bring in people from Atlanta and Texas to come and fill in gaps where we needed. And um people would be there for a week or two and just yeah, it'd be in tears, yeah, leaving, going like this isn't like this everywhere. Yeah, it's totally not. Like y'all have something special going on, like you know, they've just been there a week or whatever. Exactly. It was pretty crazy. And then the actors, these guys like that have been in like I mean like Kyle McLaughlin, like legends, you know, just like this is one of the best sets we've ever been on. Yeah. Um it was just really kind of like good to hear, which we began with res dogs and how we how we made that. Because we had to make that with so much care.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:00

Yeah, you know, yeah, we did.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:01

We we were very and there's a thing called uh French hours that we do, yeah. Which I've learned I've only done French hours, but I've learned no one does fringe hours.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:10

Nobody does. It's it's like it's frowned upon by the unions because of the overtime.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:16

So basically what it is French hours, it's like French hours is ten hours, yeah, and you don't get a break, you don't break anymore for lunch. So you just eat as you work, yeah, and you can.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:27

Yeah, you eat as you can.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:28

So you're kind of like it's it's intense because it's like it's like it's like resbolt. Like you're it's full court, you know, like it is full court press, and you're going and you're going and going until the end of the day. Yeah. But you don't have this one hour lull of breaking, and then everybody have it and get back, slug it, slog it through, and then you're working twelve hours, and you know no one has a lot, no one has a life, and you just go home and go sleep and work.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:52

So it's just ten hours after ten hours is up. Yeah, done done, done, you're done.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:56

We've and you have to vote on it. And we voted on it on both shows.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:00

Yeah. And it's it's uh for the for the union, the unions don't like it because there's no overtime, there's no um um meal meals. Right. You know, because uh unions want us to sit down and have a meal and relax for an hour or a half hour or whatever it is. And it it to me that has always you know slowed everything down for the afternoon because you're full and you just got done sitting down.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:28

Yeah, it's hard to get back up. Yeah, exactly. You gotta keep the dynamo spinning.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:31

Yeah, yeah. And and working those ten hours on reservation dogs every day was just like you know, we were just going and going and going, and it w and it was great. It was great. Every ten hours done, everyone could go do whatever they wanted to do, and you know, we had time to do it. Yeah, you know. So it was it was you know very unique.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:54

Like your show now that you just got through with Dark Worlds, Dark Winds at twelve?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:58

It was twelve hour days, but you know, most of the time we were shooting fourteens. Wow. Um uh and you know, a lot of times at night because it is called Dark Winds. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:10

So Yeah, you can't have a show called Dark Winds.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:12

Yeah, not shoot at night. Night shooting for worse.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:15

Uh almost every time I write scripts and do shows, I g the my rewrites are just going through the script and writing day. Xing out night and writing day.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:24

Yeah, because because you know, the first two weeks or first three weeks we shot on night dark ones, it was night, it was night shooting. And, you know, it s really screws up your sleep. You're working, you know, twelve hours and then you're trying to drive home, you know, when the sun's coming up and everyone else is going to work. And uh, you know, it's it could be really difficult. Right. Um and then they have what these th they what they call a Friday, you know, Friday into Saturday. And that's like the worst. Because you don't yeah, so even even ginger is oh god. Uh it it uh what it does is screws your weekend. You don't get a weekend.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:02

Right. Uh huh.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:03

So you you know, you're working Friday night all the way through Saturday morning and you try to go home, you you're too tired to go and do anything for the weekend.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:12

Back to work on Monday.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:13

Yeah, back to work on Monday less than less than 48 hours. So it's it's you know, it's it's a grind. Yeah and you know, I think back, I've always done that. You know, and and Res Dogs was the first show that I didn't have to do that. You know, we were done at the latest I think we ever went was like two in the morning. Yeah. And that's like getting out of the bar. Right. So it was like it was it wasn't bad. It wasn't horrible at all. And uh and most of the time it was like seven to seven. Yeah, yeah, seven to seven. Eight seven. Yeah. So it was I mean, it was nice. It was you know just relaxing. It was a r relaxing show for me to do uh after, you know, several years of freaking twelve hours, you know, fourteen hours, sixteen hours a day. And you know, and enjoying it. I you know, even though I'm exhausted, I still love it, you know. Still schlag along.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:13

Do you know what your next project is you're working on?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:15

I don't. There's there's nothing. Hopefully it's your show.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:19

Yeah. I'll get on it. How about you? I don't know, man. Show running's hard, dude. It is.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:28

It's the difference between a half hour comedy and a drama. Full hour drama.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:34

I mean, we essentially made six feature films in 65 days. Like, that's just bananas.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:39

Like it is. It is. But you guys chose uh French hours for that show as well? Yeah. I don't have French hours. What are your hours? I don't eat until dinner. I get it. Most of the time. Yeah, most of the time. Um I eat like one meal a day. Uh and mostly that's to come back up from the studio and hang out with my family.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:04

What is your day usually like when you go down there?

SPEAKER_06 1:17:06

Uh if I'm in if I'm in the push, uh, which I feel like I've been in for the last three years, um, I wake up in the morning, I make a cup of coffee, uh, and then I go down to the studio. And I drink that coffee and I work, you know, and it takes like probably like uh hour and a half, two hours before you're like in it, you know, and it's a lot of like I'll I'll clean up, straighten up from the night before, put things away, get ready to work, and then uh and then you just start making stuff and like when you start a project, you're really excited and you're problem solving and you're you're figuring out what the form of a thing is, what materials you're working with, what the materials have to say, and then um and then at the end of this like push in, you know, uh for getting an exhibition out or something like that, all of the decisions have been made and you're just doing the work, you know. And I'll put in like sixteen hours, you know, down in the studio, and uh there'll be a break, which is dinner time. I come up, um, either help cook or or eat, watch a show, hang out with the fam, let the boy you know, get the boys in bed, and then I'll go back down to the studio and I'll I'll like work another another eight hours. Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:32

When are you going to sleep in a p push?

SPEAKER_06 1:18:34

Uh in a push, I'm going to sleep at like probably yeah, between like three and five in the morning. Um and then I'll I'll you know crawl into bed. I'll be exhausted and I'll sleep, wake up, usually probably around like nine, ten, and then start it all over again, you know. Um but same thing. I mean, I like it, otherwise I wouldn't do it. I also, you know, you guys were talking about your s your your sons being able to like read people and and stuff like that. I'm like the other side of that um that same uh uh uh ruler, you know. If they're at 10, I'm at zero, you know. I'm like, I assume everybody is great. And I'm like, uh I'm not gonna I'm not gonna read you. I don't, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:30

I wish I was like that sometimes.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:31

I'm like, you'll you'll tell me. You'll tell me who you are, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:35

Sooner or later. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:37

And until then I ain't gonna worry about it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:40

Oh god, I wish I was like that. I'm worried about like 10 days ahead. People I haven't met yet.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:50

I am I am not like that. I am I am right now. Oh like this is it. You guys are my best friends. Best friends that I've ever had.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:03

Tomorrow be somebody else. But uh today, right now, this moment.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:08

You're like 30% of my entire universe, including my children, my wife, my home, my mother, my cat. Everything I could see out of my eyes. Um But you get burnout. I do get burnout.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:24

Um it's it's uh the most one day I came here a few months back, I feel like, and it was the pressure was on.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:32

Yeah. And it's the same pressure is still on. Right. Like before you guys came today, I was down in the studio working on probably the exact same show. Right, you know, still trying to finish things before there's all of these like markers that you have to hit in the studio, especially working with clay, like you gotta get all the clay stuff built so it can dry. That's like weeks of drying, so then you move on to the other things that you've postponed while you do the other stuff. So I'm in I'm in the non-clay section right now, and like that one working with willow and paracord, you know, it's like the weirdest, weirdest combinations of it.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:08

Unusual combination.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:10

But it is like like you said, like um it's not monotonous. Yeah, you know, yeah. Even when I'm doing the same thing, it's on a on a form that never existed in the entire universe before.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:26

Yeah, that that's that's when you say that, you're creating a world, uh, you know, in in in a way that's yeah, is it it's a complete thing. But we do that too in film. Yeah, yeah. You know, Sterling writes it and and and you know, puts it out there for guys like me to interpret it happen to interpret it and make it happen. Yeah. And you know, I woke up one morning like a year ago, and I'm like, I create worlds. Yeah, it's a whole world. And I've been doing it for 30 years. And it's like okay, um I kind of feel weird about that. You know, I and I do, I do feel weird, but I love it. I fucking love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:16

Yeah, I'm sure you've seen a lot change, especially as far as native representation and all of that goes, and as and behind the scenes stuff. And um one thing, you know, on the show that we worked on, the first thing we worked on was for scalped. I learned kind of how to run my sets by that set because I remember one of the.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:34

What were you on scalped?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:36

I was a consulting producer.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:39

The cultural advisor slash indigenous producer. Right, exactly. And so I was like, I told him the first meeting I had, you know, all these guys, and these guys came up with attitude because they were like, oh, this dude's gonna tell us what we can't do.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:53

And so the first meeting I remember, I think I got the respect because I was like, look, I'm not here to tell you to make this not dark. It's a dark story. I'm not here to like make things cut cut cut your legs out from under you. I'm here to like take what you're doing and make it real, yeah, better. Yeah. And that's what I did. I I wouldn't tell them, oh, this can't happen. I mean, there were for instance, there was a um, there's a in the comic books, there's a character, there's like there's like um sex workers that are at the casino, and they are like classic pretty woman, like, you know, dolled up sex workers. And I was like, this would never happen at a Indian casino. Like your grandma walks in. Yeah, you're not gonna dress like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:43

You're gonna like dress in a way that you're not known. Like that we should, we you know, you're not trying to display what you are. So it was little things like that, just like shifting the dial a little bit, like, which makes it more believable because it's honest. It's like this, and this there's an elder woman character that was like, she would not say these things. Yeah, like there's no native elder woman that would say things that this character is saying. She might say this, but she would never say that. You know, I would do a lot of that. But one thing that I really took away from that was I remember, because I knew a lot of, you know, if you're native and you're in the art world, you're gonna know the native stunt people. You're gonna know the native extras. You know, you're gonna know some of them.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:26

Because it's not like maybe in the white world where it's like, oh, these are the people that are interested interested in acting only. No. They're all artists, they're all community members, they're all people that you know from various things. Exactly. And they're getting these jobs, and those jobs aren't steady, so they're just trying things out, they're getting some money in, they're doing work. Yeah, and I remember the first day we were called to lunch. We were taking a lunch break, and I was walking into lunch, and I looked over and I saw all of these stunt guys and women and extras kind of just sitting there watching us walk to eat, and I was like, Oh, hell no. And I went in and I I talked to the AD and the producers, I was like, we gotta let them eat. Like, why aren't they eating? Like, oh, this is how it works on a set. Like, we eat first and then they eat. And I'm like, Yeah, but I understand that that's how it works, but with the history of treatment of natives as extras, through the history of this industry, yeah, it's been done very wrong. Yeah. And you also have to understand protocol and how you treat people. These are in our in a native community, these are our guests. And this wouldn't be working without them. They should be eating when we eat. Yeah, they should be eating before us. They should eat before us, and they should also be we should be offering them coffee. We should be the there shouldn't be separate crafty snacks for us and them. Like we should be offering them things. Yeah. And I they were like getting mad at me for trying to get them to eat, and I was like, well, fuck it, I'll eat with them. And I waited and I ate with them instead of whenever my group was supposed to or whatever. And you know, things started to sh change, and you know, it's it's not like these people are assholes, they're just never been taught. Right. And so you gotta teach them.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:10

Yeah, well, they have been taught. It's just that the way that they were taught is fucked up.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:13

Exactly. And so with res dogs, I implemented all of that. You know, it was like, and at the end, by the end, like everybody knew like you can't treat it extra different, because it's probably Sterling's mom. Right. You know, like his auntie, like you're gonna get a fucking earful, you know. You're gonna be bitched out. Yeah, you're gonna get a fucking earful. This is a community member that is being an extra and a leader.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:36

The interesting thing is in the past like five years or so, that ever since we did scalp, that's about five years. Um here in New Mexico, it has started to change. The the the extras don't have to wait as long.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:52

Right. Well, that means Zahn and them were on res dogs. They know, they saw how we could do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:57

Yeah, yeah, like on Dark Winds, the the extras eat with us and stuff like that. So there's there's you know, it really does help move things along. Yeah. Um and and you know, and I I you know, I think about that now and then, you know, that first day. I remember that first day. And uh it was it was very difficult for them to understand that this isn't how you know native people beh behave.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:23

Now, now what I do is I tell the ADs no coming in. Like this is a Sterling Hard drive show. Like I've heard head ADs that are bringing younger ADs in, like this is uh different. Like here's what you got, you know, like what uh what is an A D? Assistant director. Okay, then there's the A D team. So there's a tier of of them, and some of them, you know, will work exclusively with extras or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:48

And then there's PAs under them that work, and so you know, um Yeah, the the assistant director is the one that's kind of in charge of making sure that the set moves. Yeah, r runs runs smoothly. Gets the work done. Gets what they need and stuff like that. And they're in charge of scheduling and all that stuff too.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:06

So they'll be like, and on my shows now, they'll be like, this is how it has to go, you know. Like, this is this I feel like too many.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:19

She was. And you know what I mean? I'm talking to you. Am I in trouble, man? I mean, what's going on? I was like, oh my god, I'm in trouble.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:31

What did I do wrong?

SPEAKER_06 1:28:33

I know. That classic sound.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:35

But it's just cool to be able to see that those differences being made in real time. You know, people were fighting for this stuff a long time ago. I mean, Jim Thorpe was fighting for, you know, native extras to be played by native people back in the day, you know, like um since the beginning of cinema, it's it's it's been a battle.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:56

Yeah. I picked up a um a photograph in uh Hamilton, Oregon, at a thrift store. And it's a photograph of a native stuntman. I think he was he might have been Chickasaw. Um but he was the according to the back of this photograph that I picked up, he worked on the worked on help design and was the first person to use the slingshot rig for when you get shot.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:35

Oh, really? And it pulls you pulls you pulls you back off the marsh or whatever.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:40

So a native dude who helped develop that thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:43

You know, yeah. It's I mean those stunt stunt people are just like it's a very different breed. It's a whole other breed, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:51

And they're just like they live for it. Which is really funny because the first show I did in New Mexico, yeah, I was stunts for Gary Farmer. Oh wow. Yeah. I did I did uh You had to show your ass a lot, didn't you? But I did a movie called Dream Keeper. Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:08

There were some great that that that that Gary Farmer and John Trudeau. I I was trying to make I was in talks with John Trudeau, he and I met here. Yeah. And I was gonna write a movie for them too.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:22

And did you get run over by a boulder? Yeah, that that was the stunt.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:28

I did I did two stunts for the first one was I had to climb the c the side of this cliff, and it was pretty high. It was like you know, 50, 60 feet up. They just had a uh bunch of boxes down there in case I fell. But I had I had to climb this cliff up and I had to make it look like I was a spider because he was a kid me. And and then the second thing was um they had this hill and they shot the the camera so it looked like they were just running flat. Uh, but it was a hill and they let the boulder roll. And and I had to stay in front of it until they said they said now, and then I dropped down and it ran over me. And uh we did it like three or four times, and then uh I got a call like three weeks later saying, Hey, we're gonna do that boulder stuff. And I went, Oh god. But this time it was in Arizona. Whoa. So I had to they flew me into to Phoenix and we were out just outside of Phoenix filming out there, and then they realized that the boulder was going too fast, and there was no way to slow it down. So they decided to just let Gary and John be in front of the boulder and then they pushed it. And that's how they did that scene. So uh I got a free trip to Phoenix and hung out.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:40

What was that shoot like? There were so many natives like that.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:42

There were there were a lot of natives, but everyone in charge was non-native. Right. And it was like yeah, it was a typical film set. And uh but it was the first time uh in a in I think my career that I was treated differently.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:00

You know, 'cause I was a behind the scenes film worker and I did a few acting gigs. But walking in there and you know, they're saying you're you're the talent stunt for Gary. Right. And well, yeah, you know, and so like I got my own chair, I got, you know, I when'd you get to eat? Uh I got to It wasn't worth the extra, I'll tell you that. Uh you know, and they put me up in a nice four-star hotel and it was really nice. You know, it was like, wow, this is way different. And so uh I learned from that that um you know the the actors and the performers uh definitely have a different experience than us film workers.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:47

Yeah. And so were you working in in the other side of film as well?

SPEAKER_04 1:32:51

Yeah, I was uh I had I had moved uh I had started getting into film here, but I had done film work in Ohio and I did film work in in Chicago. And uh um, you know, I was working that I was were also doing stage work, um, you know uh loading in and loading out for concerts and stuff like that. Right. So I was, you know, in the full gamut of everything.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:17

And uh that's that rabbit's foot right there. Yeah, that's that's how I the removal of variables.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:23

Exactly. Removal of variables. Um but it was uh it was uh yeah, that was the first show here in New Mexico, and then like two weeks later I was doing special effects on a show in way down south uh by Las Cruces. So uh yeah, it was my first union. How did your role in Breaking Bad happen? That's very interesting. Uh so I had gone through this program at uh IAIA, the Institute of American Indian Arts, uh with ABC and Disney. And it was just a summer, it's supposed to be a summer program, and uh they needed actors. And I had just joined SAG and uh they were like, hey, you know, if there's any native actors that like to do this program, you can go and do it for free, because they were charging like five hundred bucks or something like that. And I said, Yeah, what the heck, you know. And uh so I went through this program, and that's where I met Migazy. Right. And uh um and Sydney and all the other guys. Steve Jones, probably. Yeah, yeah. And uh so we went through this program and at the end they announced, hey, we're gonna take a few of you guys and we're gonna bring you over to LA and you can write for uh ABC Disney. And we were just like, what? You know, it was just totally out of the blue. So the people they had uh had us all write a script and we had to have sixty pages by the end of the program. And uh I just put out a script there and uh I was the one s one of the ones chosen. It was me, Magazine, this guy named Darren Two Hatchet and uh one other person, I can't remember who that was. Um but they flew us out, you know, they gave us two paths. You can either make a full-length feature write a script for, or uh you can go into TV. And the only one that chose TV was Migazine. Uh the rest of us chose to, you know, write a feature-length script, all original for Disney. And after we got done with uh writing the script and we got the notes and we, you know, changed it up wherever they had to, uh, we got to pitch it to all of the Disney um uh studios. So all every single one of 'em. So I met like Jerry Bruckheimer, I met, you know, m all these big huge producers. And it was great. It was a it was a great experience. Um but from that w one of the other writers that was in the program, uh Carlos, he was one of the writers on Breaking Bad. And uh so I finished the program, I'd come back here and I just you know, I d I didn't feel like uh I could continue on as a writer. So I was just doing film work. And uh I ended up being on the pilot for Breaking Bad as uh set uh on set dresser. And so I went, oh no, I was just this regular set dresser. And one day we were like dressing this set, and there walks Carlos. I said, Hey, what are you doing here? And he you know, we had a little reunion and he's like, I'm one of the writers on this show, man. You know, he's so excited. And uh he uh he said, What are you doing? I said, I'm dressing this set. He says, You're not writing anymore? And I went, No, you know, I I th I had you know I had a good experience there, but it just wasn't my thing. And so he's like, Uh huh, I'm gonna write you roll. And I was like, Yeah, right, you know, just kind of nonchalantly. So about a month later, uh the pilot had had been done and they had started shooting. And I was working on a film called The Spirit with uh Frank Miller and and uh as the director and uh Sam Jackson and Scarlett Johansson and you know all these other guys. And I get a call from my agent and he says, Hey, uh these guys really want you to audition for the show called Breaking Bad. I said, Oh yeah, I know it. I did the pilot. And he goes, Okay, cool. Uh here's you know, I'll send you all the stuff. So they sent me a script for one of the two um uh buddies of Jesse, you know, the the really dumb guy and the skinny kid. And they wanted me to try out for the dumb guy. And I'm just like, what the fuck? You know, this is totally wrong for me. You know, the guy's like 20 years younger, and you know, I'm like, okay, I'll give it a shot, you know. So, you know, I I dress the part, I you know, go in and I fucking killed the audition. They they were just like, oh my god, I we didn't know you could do that. And I'm like, yeah, I'm I'm you know, I'm a trade doctor. I mean, come on. And so they were like, you know, you coming in was just a formality, a role was written for you. We just have to, you know, bring you in as a formality. I'm like, what? And so here's your real role. Whoa. And they just handed it over, and I was like, what the hell? You know, so there it was, you know, it was the janitor, you know, so Mr. Archery Letta. What episode two? It was uh season one, episode six. Right. And um, so I was like, what the heck? And so about an hour later, I get a call from Carlos, and he's like, dude, I wrote that for you. That's all that's all you. That's Chris. And I'm like, fuck yeah. He said, I wanted I wanted to make sure that it was a role that one uh uh that only you could play as a native playing a Mexican. Right. All right, right. Because in the in the old days it was all Mexicans playing natives.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:06

That's so funny. I remember seeing it. I'd forgot you were in it, and then I was watching it, and I was like, fuck it, beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:15

I know, I still get friends of mine that you know they're either re-watching it or watching it for the first time, and I'll get a call at three in the morning and say, What are you doing? You were on this show, and I'm like, Yeah, you know, it's like the most important show in the movie. Okay, whatever, you know. But uh yeah, and even like so I do that show, and then right after that, I do I get a role on the show called Swing Vote. And it had Kevin Costner, uh Dennis Hopper, uh Floyd Westerman's last film.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:49

And uh uh and it was great to meet him, and and you know, he was just like, you young guys have to keep it moving. You know, that was a that was the only thing he said to me that that I still remember, you know. He said a whole bunch of other stuff, but you know, I don't know if this is a PG-rated thing. But anyway, uh so I got that role, and um uh it was nice, it was a good speaking role with Kev Costner in the scene, and and Gary was in it too. And uh so we go along and uh about four or five months later we were shooting a TV show called Crash uh for Showtime. And uh Dennis was the main there was the lead in that, Dennis Hopper. And uh so we're filming one day and Dennis's assistant comes and I'm I'm the onset dresser, so I'm like prepping for the next shot, you know, I'm working my butt off. And his assistant walks up and he says, Mr. Hopper would like to see you. And I go, Oh shit, I fucked up something somewhere. You know, I I I keep thinking, Did I forget this? I forget that. No, no, no, you know, I'm going down the list and I say, Yeah, I'll be right there. You know, and so I finished prepping for the for the next shot. And I tell the AD, I said, I Mr. Hopper wants to see me, so he said, All right, go ahead, step off. So I go, and at the time, uh Dennis had his own little tent that was right next to the set that he could smoke his cigars. And uh, you know, he smoked like probably ten of them a day. Right. Uh uh anyway, uh, you know, so I walk up, his assistant's standing outside, and his assistant peeks his head and he says, Mr. Barrera's here. And he says, bring him in, bring him in. And I'm like, fuck him, fuck, you know, I think I'm fired, you know. And so he says, have a seat, have a seat, you know. So I'm sit down.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:47

I want you to get down on your knees and have and I'm gonna send you in the chair.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:52

No, he said, uh, he said, have a seat. He said, You didn't fucking tell me you were an actor. And I'm like, what? What are you talking about? He says, I just saw the the the preview of swing vote. You're fucking in it. And I'm like, yeah. He said, You said more in that scene than Kevin did with all his words. And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, I guess, you know. And it was, it was, it was tremendous. I mean, this is Dennis fucking hard, dude. And I was just like, uh, okay, yeah, thank you very much, sir. And he says, Have you done anything else? I said, Yeah, I just did the episode of Breaking Bad. Holy fuck, he says, That's a great show. And I'm like, holy cow, okay, he watches the show, you know, because the first two episodes have come out or whatever. And he said, That's a great show. He says, Which one are you in? I said, I'm in the sixth episode. He's like, Great, I'll look for it, I'll look for it. He says, He said, you know what fucks up most actors? It's the fucking dialogue. It's fucking dialogue, and you you are just a silent pyramid standing in the middle of that set. And you said more with your eyes, with your movements, with your body than Kevin did with all those fucking lines he had. I said, Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, sir. And it was just it was hilarious. That's awesome. And then, and then he says, I want some time for us to do a film where we're just sitting there. And I went, okay, we can do, we can do that. We can do that. You know, just name a time and place, and I'll show up. And so I wish you ought to have made that film. Yeah, I know. I and uh less than six months he's gone. Wow. And so uh, but he you know, he was uh really incredible, you know, like like just seeing his last acting stuff, right? And it was just amazing to watch it every day.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:40

Right, you know, it's was that uh that was a show? That was a TV show, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:44

It was a TV show, uh crash. It was after the film crash. Yeah. Um, but uh yeah, it w it was fun, you know. And the only other acting thing I I got from anybody was from um Tom Waits.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:04

Hey, you better mention you were in Res Dogs too.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:07

Yeah, well, I mean I didn't get praise for Res Dogs. Nobody ever said I did a good job there. They just said you and the meeting. You did you did an adequate job and you didn't suck. That's what they said to me. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, variety? No, uh no, I I did this short film called Cowboys and Indians, and uh it was for the Albuquerque E48 hour film fest, and Tom Waits was one of the judges.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:34

That's cool.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:35

And uh so we're there, do the film, and we're at the end, we're getting, you know, they're dealing out the awards and stuff. And it comes down to between me and another guy for best actor. And I'm just like, well fuck, you know, I didn't know I did that good of a job, you know, just kind of freaking out. And uh they give it to the other guy who played this pirate kind of guy, and it was just like anyone could do a fucking pirate. And I just played a normal person, I still got up there, so I was like, oh that's cool. And at the same time, I was in the Disney program then, so I was flying back and forth to LA. And um, so the next day I'm like getting on the plane, and uh, there's fucking Tom Waits, and he he comes up and he goes, Hey man, you were fucking great in that movie. I voted for you, and I'm like, Oh, thank you, sir. You know, thanks a lot. He says, No, no, you don't understand. You were phenomenal. That's a group. I'm like, really? I said, get out of here. And he's like, no, no. You're you have a presence, and it's capital. What if he said, you just sit down there and look at it? He said this. No, you just you just like, yeah, it's you just you have a presence. And you know, you you you the way you interacted with the other guys in that scene, you know, and you know, half of the thing, I I don't say much. I just you know do you think?

SPEAKER_03 1:46:04

I think that you have acting ahead of you.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:08

Like I hope so. It's time. It's time to be like Yeah, my body's giving out, so I shouldn't be.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:15

No, but it's like you know, not to call you an elder, but like you you're getting to the place where you could be playing some of those like like older natives in in film and TV. I mean, like there's some legends. I mean, like, you look at Chief Dan George and like what he did. I mean, come on, man. Yeah, that personify nativeness and humor and exact strength, dude. Like it's amazing. And Gary's the same, you know. Yeah, Gary's the same. You know, I had a moment these moments like this in your life where people give you encouragement. I remember I a similar thing happened to me. I was at the Stockholm Film Festival, and um a person came to me. I hate, you know, it's like, why would you do this? But a person came to me and said, uh, it was a and it was a juror. And I Weiwei was a juror as well that year. And uh, but this person came up to me and said, just so you know, it's between you and this other film, and I'm pushing for you, you know. And I was like, Oh, thank you. You know, I didn't get it, yeah, I didn't win. But we went to this dinner uh in this castle in Stockholm after that.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:20

Cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:20

And I introduced myself to I Weiwei, and he was like, I was like, I made this film, um, Miko, and he was just like, stopped, and he was just like, You're a really great filmmaker. He's like, do not stop making films. And I was just like I Weiwei says that I was just like, oh, that's fucking awesome, dude. I remember one time uh I was at the I had a script that I wrote um that I never made, but I won at the Tribeca Film Festival. I wanna I won a$10,000 this award for like best script. I never made that film, but um one of the jurors was John Trudeau, and I ran into him on at the after party. I ran into him on New York Street at the after party, and he was like, hey man, like, yeah, man, I love that script. Uh he was like, these white people, they were kind of, you know, and I and I made him look at it again. I was like, oh, this guy's got something to say, man. He was like, I'm really glad you got the deal. And he was like, You smoke, right? And I was like, Yeah. And he goes, take a walk with me. And we walked a city block and smoked a joint. Oh man.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:21

Very nice.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:22

And that's fucking awesome. It was this wonderful experience of smoking a joint with John Chadeau. We get back to this after party, we're a little late because it had already people had already been getting there, but there's a red carpet, and there's camera interview person there that's stopping different people that come through. And we roll up, and the people on the red carpet are like, Sterling, oh, the winner of blah blah blah. Like, we were waiting on you. And I was like, Oh, I'm stoned out of my fucking mind. I mean, like one of the strongest joints I've ever smoked in my life. So high. John just splits on me and leaves and goes into the after party. I have to sit on the red carpet with a giant light on me and do an interview. And the woman that was doing the interview was really short, and I wore glasses, and she was like, Oh, there's a glare. Like, you're you're tall, there's a glare in your eyes from the light. Can you spread your legs? So I had to like stand there and do the interview with my legs spread so I would be shorter. I'm hiding out of my mind. Sweating bullets, having a panic attack with my legs spreading, my legs spread out so I can be shorter on the dread car, but answering questions about a film just panic attack. You know, and I barely made it through that thing. And then the other, I had this other Jean Charel Jean Charel Weed Stories was this one is legendary enough that people still talked to come up to me and tell me they were there. Oh, geez. And it was at Indian market one year, and uh I was meeting with John, and it was we were talking about he and Gary and uh Dreamkeepers, uh-huh and he wanted to make a film uh b uh that with those two with them two. Not those characters, but inspired by that. And um He had these ideas and we came up with this idea. We were sitting at that uh the the the the old hospital hotel here in town. Yeah and um we were sitting on a balcony and he's smoking cigarettes, you know, and he had just beat cancer and um he was so it was this film called uh Running with Wolves and it was uh came up with this idea with him on the spot where he and Gary used to be in a blues band together. And they hate each other, they had a falling out and they hate each other, and their drummer passed away and lived in some small town in New Mexico, and they come together and decide that they need to get down to this funeral, and they decide to play gigs along the way to finance it, and it's so these two old best friends that become enemies that are reunited and they're going to try to make it to their friends friend's funeral, and it was gonna be great, and I was so excited about it. You shouldn't still make it. I would still love to make it, and um, it'd be Gary and uh Weth. And um, but uh he uh right before we leave the meeting, he says, um, he's like, Hey you ever had a uh uh like a edible? And I was like, No, what even is that? You know, it was like before it was out, and uh he was it was all medical then and he was like, Yeah, it's about helped me beat cancer. He was attributing it to that. He was like, here. He's like, he's like, wait right here. He went and got a Tootsie roll and brought it back to me. And he was like, cut that thing into fours. He was like, it won't kill you if you eat the whole thing, but if you eat the whole thing, you'll have one hell of a trip. And uh so my dumbass, I cut it up in fours. I eat one, I'm like, I wait 20 minutes, I'm like, this hadn't kicked in. Like this old, this old, this old guy doesn't think I could handle it, you know. I eat the whole thing. Still not kicked in. I go, I eat a burger, I have, you know, I'm going to get coffee. I go to the coffee, oh no, I go and see a friend who's selling art. It was when they started the market outside of the market, and I went there and I'm talking to her, and it hits me hard. And I can't talk. And I finally just like put my hand on her shoulder. I was like, I have to go get coffee. And she goes, Yeah, I think you should, probably. And I I go to this coffee shop, and there were these two elder women, Navajo women, in there that had seen my film the night before, and they were trying to talk to me, and I couldn't talk to them. I was like, and I remember I was paying for the coffee, and I couldn't pull my card out of my wallet. Like the my the depth, the the perception was off. And I I finally got it, and my hand was shaking as I gave it to the guy, and he was looking at me like I was a psychopath. I pay for my coffee, I start walking straight as fast as I can across the plaza to my hotel, and I'm just sucking this coffee, and my arm goes numb. And I'm like, oh shit. I was like, I'm gonna die. I'm like, I'm gonna die of a stroke here at Santa Fe. And I realized that my hand had been up like this the whole time, sucking coffee. My hand had been up and it just fell asleep because I've had it up in this position the whole time. And so I get back to the hotel, I'm panic attack. Like, I'm I take a shower, I get out, I try to sleep, I can't, I have to take another shower. I end up taking three showers trying to come in. I'm supposed to be on a panel in three hours. And I call uh Bird, who was moderating the panel, and I said, Bird, man, I don't know if I can make it. I'm really high. John gave me an edible and I'm really fucked up. And he was just like, See you later, see you at three. So I'm like trying to fucking splash water on my face. I'm having a panic attack. It's getting worse, man. It is I'm getting higher and higher and higher. Three o'clock comes, I'm like, fuck, I gotta go. So I go, and it's me, Sydney Freeland, and Bird. There's a photo of this that we took, the three of us, from this panel. And you I look like weakened at Bernie's, like they're propping me up. And uh we go on this panel, and I tell Bird, I'm like, man, I'm really fucking high, dude. I was like, you have to ask us the same question and let Sydney answer first so I can formulate what I'm gonna say. I'm too high. And he was like, All right. So we're going, he's asking her a question, then I answer the same question. Um and and I'm noticing that I have to blurt my sentences out, or I'll uh I think I'll forget them, you know. I'll just have to blurt them out and be done. So people in the audience, I'm at I'm at the uh I museum thing or whatever down there in the plaza, and there's like 60 people, 70 people, or whatever, and I'm just blurting these sentences out, and then at one point, Bird is about to ask another question, and he just turns and looks at me with this evil smile. Yeah, right, yeah. And he didn't ask her first, he asked me a specific question directly. And so I go into answering it, and I'm trying to blurt it out, and right in the middle I just freeze, and I forget the whole question, I forget my answer, I forget everything, and people are just staring at me. I'm sweating bullets, and I just decide I was like, I just have to tell them. Yeah, and so I said, Alright, can I tell y'all something really? And they're like, Yeah. And I was like, So a pretty well-known elder activist poet gave me the last name starts with T.

SPEAKER_07 1:55:15

Yeah, gave me first name John. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:18

Gave me a weed tootsie roll, and I've never had one before, and I ate the whole thing, and I'm really struggling right now. I am so high. And I was like, if I'm acting weird, like I said, well, I'm really struggling, I'm really struggling to talk. And like everyone just started laughing and they started clapping, and and just confessing was enough to like let me relax to do the rest of it, you know, and everyone was cracking up. People friends on the front row were just like, oh my god. And they were filming the whole thing. So in the archives of I, there's a film of this confessing here. Uh bad. I was still high the next day. It was crazy.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:55

Yeah, some elder gave it to me who arrived at the end.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:57

And then, you know, years later, well, years later, I was actually there with John. I went to his um John invited friends to be with him as he passed. Oh wow. And so I flew out to California, and John had been doing a lot of work with uh some Muscogee friends of mine and me with um with the uh there was some remains dug up by the Porch Krieg. They built a casino, Hickory Ground, and um they were trying to get him uh reinterred and John had helped with that, and so got to know a lot of Muscogee friends of mine and stuff. And um I didn't you know I'd been around him a lot and invited me out. It was just kind of a small group of people. And all we did was we hung out on this patio of this house, and he was in the room uh passing, he was dying, and we all hung out and just like what he wanted to do was to hear us all laughing, and so everyone, you know, the someone catered it. There was food out there, and just his friends ate food and cut up and told stories and laughed for hours, you know, and he could just hear it the whole time. And uh eventually he brought me in. He would kind of call people in one by one and talk to us, you know, and um it was just really memorable, powerful thing, and I went in there. But his daughters and them had been laughing were laughing and stuff because they they had he he loved that story, he had heard that story about me getting the edibles freaking out having to do the the panel, and like they were talking to me about it, and it had traveled back to John, and he knew he was really proud of that story. Um, but you know, it was this beautiful time with him, and he he had we had talked about, he'd said, you know, I told him I'd say I I'd always hoped that we were gonna get to do that film together, you know, and he loved the 1491s and he'd always wanted to do some stuff. And and he said to me, he said, um we will. He's like, we're gonna work together. He's like, I'm not, I'm going, but I'm not gone. He's like, I'll be around. He's like, we're gonna work together. And I promise you, I felt him. I've felt him and in ways that like I won't even talk about, but like in ways that have like directly things that have in my career that have directly happened, I know he had a hand in it. Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, and it's like undeniable. Um but yeah, it was just like but that story had traveled to him and he thought it was really funny.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:19

Um they probably are like, was it you that gave him that? Fucked him up for that whole panel.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:28

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:30

Exactly. I told him to cut in four.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:35

I've had a lot of people come up to me and be like, Oh, I was there that day. I've had somebody come up to me and say, Oh, I've seen the I've seen the footage. Do you remember what year that was? I actually might have been there. You probably were around. Yeah, I don't remember.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:47

Yeah. If it was a time when John was there, I was probably there. Right. You had short hair then. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think I was at that panel, but I do remember you saying some shit like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:01

Yeah. That's fucked up, bro. It was a weekend of Bernie's photo, dude. I look like they look like I'm being propped up, man. And I'm just smiling. They're like flanking me. I'll send it to Ginger. Yeah, we'll make that the uh photo for the cover of this one.

SPEAKER_06 1:59:19

Well, I think with that, yeah, that story.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:22

Yeah, it was a good one.

SPEAKER_07 1:59:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:23

It was a very good one. Thanks, Pierre.

unknown 1:59:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:25

Yeah, thanks for bringing bringing 900 years of knowledge in the film industry to it. Um, don't quit uh creating worlds. I won't. That's what you do. I won't. No, and I think this I think this acting thing is dude, that's it. Yeah. Come on, man. You don't want to be carrying, you don't want to be carrying carrying chairs anymore. Yeah. I don't. I don't want to do that anymore. You want to get your own chair and get carried. Have people bring meat to me. Exactly. Yeah. I need some I need some deer. I need some deer. Alright, I guess we'll go. I guess Chanoopah's gonna start whistling soon. So that means I'm not gonna go. All right.

SPEAKER_06 2:00:07

Call them in.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:08

Oh.

SPEAKER_06 2:00:09

Oh, oh.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:12

Sh go one. Don't sh go one.