Theology & Transformation + Culture with Frank Legare | Ep. 3

In this conversation with Frank Legare, we unpack the cultural mandate, the difference between assimilation and accommodation, and how Scripture calls the church to be a blessing to every nation.

Frank shares the moments that disrupted his own assumptions and how stepping into multi-cultural spaces deepened his understanding of the gospel.

We talk humility, curiosity, and what it means to enter every cultural encounter as a learner.

The Bible doesn’t just teach us, it transforms us.

"Theology & Transformation + Culture" 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

From the block to the boardroom, from the pulpit to the table. Think2 Podcast exists to help you rate culturality. But it's customing how culture touches everything from a Christian worldview.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Just like a fish swims in water, we swim in culture. So today we're going to be swimming with Frank Legree, ladies and gentlemen. We got Frank here. How are you doing today, Frank? Good cross. It's um, I'm excited. We are going to be talking about uh a theology of culture and transformation. Uh Frank Legree is a good friend, churchman, co-worker. He has uh an MDiv from uh Reformed Theological Seminary, which is also where I am enrolled. He has he's pastored churches. He is uh kind of our resident, you could say theologian. I mean that he leads our teaching team, he teaches our ministry cohort, our residents, interns, and so all thing theology, this is Franklin Green. So how are you feeling? How does it feel to be on the CQ podcast, Frank?

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Very excited uh to be here. Thank you for that introduction. I the thing I love about podcasts is when you get introduced, it's like your best self. You know, like I don't I don't know if I if I'm all that, but that's founded great. So facts. But yeah, glad to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

You are, you are all right. Um well, yeah. So today we're really gonna get a chance to talk theology um a lot of times to kind of set the set the stage. A lot of times, we've as we've been chopping up and discussing theology can be truncated, it can be deformed, it can be missing significant things, and most people don't have a strong theology of culture. Yeah, and so I'm excited to explore with Frank, but then also talk about transformation because the Bible doesn't just teach us things that transforms who we are. So let me kick us off like we do with the word. Uh, this is from Ephesians chapter three, and uh, this is after, in some ways, some of the best vertical uh gospel, horizontal gospel, but then implications for the world and for the universe in the heavenly places. And in verse 10 of chapter three of Ephesians, it says, His intent, uh the Lord's, was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purposes that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. In him and through faith in him, we may approach God with freedom and confidence. And one of the things I love about that verse, specifically 310, is that word manifold means multicolored, same uh Greek word in the Septuagint, talking about Joseph's multicolored code. And it really is in context of Ephesians with chapter two, it is the manifold wisdom, the reconciliation which God brings to all peoples is the wisdom he's referring to. Uh that when people come together from different backgrounds, tribe stones, languages, and are unified, that the angels celebrate, that God, that God gives them else. And so the the theology of culture isn't just soteriological about salvation, it's ecclesiological about the church. Um, but Frank, tell them tell them some about your background, where you're coming from, uh theologically, your education, and then kind of how uh how you feel like that set the stage for you as it relates to cultural theology.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Yeah, absolutely. I think um even just looking at it from I'm 52 years old, so just from an from an age standpoint, growing up in a culture born in 1974, just kind of coming out. I mean, I'm 10 years off of a lot of major movements in this country, civil rights and things like that, and cultural changes, a lot of cultural shifts in the 70s. My parents grew up in a different generation in the stories that I was hearing. So for me, kind of just even coming up, thinking about culture, I had a very kind of narrow view of culture, um, which really kind of continued um to be stressed in the environments that I was in, majority culture environments that I was in, the churches that I was in, I got a very narrow view. And then even later when I decided to go into ministry when the Lord called me to that, the seminary that I went to, great seminary, RTS, shout out to them. Um, but at that time, I mean, it was predominantly white. Yeah. Um, and I would venture to say 85-90% of the men that were there were going on to be licensed and ordained in predominantly white churches.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

And so what I will say is they did a very good job of sort of training us to preach, teach, counsel shepherd in majority white spaces. So good on them for that. Yeah. And so we learned, I mean, I I remember talking about the cultural mandate of Genesis and this idea that we were supposed to exercise authority and dominion, that we were to subdue the earth, that we were to use the resources that God has given us for the benefit of the world, right? If if if culture is doing with what God, you know, what God gave us, yeah, you know, if we've got a simple definition for what culture is. But what I didn't know really at the time was that that was restricted for me by a majority culture view. Yeah. So yes, I learned it, but the idea for me was I will go out and take the things that God has given us to benefit the culture that I'm in, the majority culture that I'm in. So in a way, it actually limited me. And I was missing a huge portion of the rest of the world.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Um, I got some questions. First off, you know, you said you got the cultural mandate, but missed its imp what its implications really were for. What is, what do you say, what is the cultural mandate for somebody who hasn't heard that phrase before as it relates to.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Yeah, when I when I think about in Genesis, we have a responsibility to take what the Lord has given us on this earth and use it for the benefit of the world, to take it, so do it, and use it. But that means the whole world. Yeah, it means everybody in the world. Um, it means all nations, um, tribes, tongue, peoples, uh, and nations. And so we have a responsibility to do that. Just as Adam and Eve, even pre-sin, Adam and Eve were placed in the garden to tend it. Right. They weren't there to just sit around.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

They were supposed to make that, cultivate it, make it more beautiful and more fruitful. So that hasn't changed for us. Now we're battling with sin, but we still have a responsibility to do that. And it's broader than any one culture or any one person. It is worldwide. That's the image.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

And so it's like, you know, cultural mandate in Genesis, first two things the Lord told man to do um after you made his image, be fruitful, multiply, and like you said, subdue the earth and have dominion. And it's in to your point, because I think sometimes when people are in majority spaces, it's like, well, what is what's the problem with being at a all-white seminary or majority white seminary? What's the problem with doing ministry in those places? And what I hear you saying is um the Lord really has more, and you see it in the scriptures. That's exactly right. Um, would you say, like, did you was there any did y'all uh talk at all about like reaching all nations, peoples? Wouldn't you say that was a part of your education?

SPEAKER_00 7:02

It it was, it and I think it uh I would describe it like this we didn't we didn't skip those verses, and so Genesis 12, Abraham's gonna be a blessing to all nations. Um, the Great Commission, go and make disciples of all nations, Revelation 7, you know, every tribe, young people, and nation. So there's this picture, and we're sort of being told about what that means in theory. But I think the way it ended up coming across, and I remember this from my experience in white churches and being in predominantly white churches, that's say on a Sunday a black family would come. And everybody was kind of excited. We have a black family here. Uh, this is exciting. But to differentiate between what I would call assimilation and accommodation, okay. So they come, right? And we're glad to have you here, and everybody's welcoming them, and we're feeling good because you know we we've got some street cred now, right? Because we have a black coming church. But then in the middle of the service, when the wife says, Hallelujah, preacher, loud, right? Amen, bring it. There was just this sort of like, I can remember this feeling of like, well, we'll need to talk to her about that. You know what I mean? I agree because she's gonna need to calm that down because that's not what we do here, and so that I think what we got was it's great, let's welcome. I didn't have any uh there wasn't any open hostility. Black families come, if Asian families come, Latino families come. You can be here, but you must quickly learn how we do things and assimilate to that. And it's not likely we're gonna make you a pastor or a deacon or preacher, ministry league. That's what I'm saying. And so then this idea of accommodation of how do I take these folks, bring them in and recognize one, they made the image of God just like I am, two, they have spiritual gifts that need to be shared. They have unique perspectives, and how do we accommodate? How do we make preferences for what do we do with that? But I didn't have that in the beginning. I I just wasn't equipped with that.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

One of the things I hear and you hear you saying too is like you had some of the orthodoxy of right teaching, like they wouldn't skip the verses they said the all nations, but then regardless of orthopraxis, like right living, right? We didn't we act there was no teaching equipping on okay, when a black family comes, or if I were to go to a a place that's predominantly people of color, right? Like how am I actually going to love them in light of their context? And I love what you said accommodation versus assimilation, where I think also in regards to peers of a project. A lot of times in white spaces it can be all right, the PFC is a project. So I'm gonna try to go and love on them at home, you know what I'm saying? It's all this, but in regards to like actually recognizing their peerness, recognizing that they have the Imago Day and I have something to learn from them as well. They can learn from me, but I can learn from them. Right. And that different cultural practices in churches can be just as legitimate as was lacking.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Right. Yeah. And so it was this idea of you're you're going to to seminary and you are hearing about all nations, and then on Sunday we're all going to our old white churches.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Yeah. And so why do you think people see a problem with that? Like why, why, why is it easier to say, yeah, like I believe the Lord's gonna in heaven, it's gonna be diverse. You know, I I believe you love Jesus and from a different cultural space, but then feel very okay with living a segregated life or worshiping in a segregated space.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Yeah, I think some of that, and I'll speak for myself, some of that is just how easily we can see a thing or be taught a thing, but ignore the full truth of that thing. And it's just more comfortable to go to my own white church. That's it. It's more comfortable, it's easier. Um, so there's a selfishness element, there's a sin element to this. Because when I look at when I think about the the multi-ethnic church, um I don't I don't want people to think of that as a new movement that has been discovered, but a biblical principle that's been ignored. Say that again. It has been ignored. Yeah. And the white church uh in large part chose to ignore it because it is everywhere in scripture. And if you if you see and if you have an ecclesiology, if you have any understanding of the local church and the universal church, and you're not piecing together that if the universal church is every tribe-tongue people and nation, why doesn't my local church reflect that? Yeah, you're just ignoring something because you don't want it, because it is uncomfortable, it it it is hard, and I I I got a lot to say about that too.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

So tell me this because it's like you know, the theology, kind of realizing where you came from, some of the theology and and that I think lacks it in a lot of ways that lacks the implications of the good news of Christ. If gospel is good news about Jesus, we definitely the good news of Jesus is centered with the cross, like on what he's done for us and his resurrection, absolutely. But the good news of Christ expands beyond that to do how do we live with our fellow man. Yes, it expands beyond that to think about our eschatology when Jesus returns. And and all of that, even biblically, how that term is used is more broad, yes, I think, than a lot of times uh a lot a lot of white evangelical spaces want to make it, even though I would say, in regards to the heart or the the central beat is the cross and the resurrection, right? The life of Christ, the cross, the resurrection. But in regards to the implications of the way the word used, it's more broad than that. Yeah. And so you come from a space, you're kind of getting exposed to some of that. I'm curious what when there were some disruption moments for you, some moments where you came to the realization, all right, like I've been taught this, but this really, this really isn't the way I should be living or thinking, or if there was scripture or moments. What's the most disruption moments?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Absolutely. And the first one, interestingly enough, the first one came when I was in my 20s and and I didn't even know what to do with do with it. I I was in a a predominantly, when I say predominantly white church, it might have been an old white church. And this particular church had a a children's church, remember children's church, uh, in the middle of the service. And I the college minister was doing children's church that day, and he was talking about heaven and the beauty of heaven, and he asked everyone to close their eyes and he said, I want you to picture heaven, and I want you to picture the people that you see in heaven. And he just kind of paused for a moment and then he said, How many black people do you see? How many Asian people do you see? How many Latinos do you see? And I want to tell you, it was like a bomb went off. Really? Mentally because I didn't see any. My heaven was all white. Wow. All white. Wow. And again, I didn't have the framework to know what to do with that. But that was the first seed where I thought, there's something wrong here. And and I could connect enough that if all my churches had been white, why wouldn't I think my heaven was going to be all white? But that hit. Yeah. And then it just planted and sat for 30 more years, you know. Uh it kind of sat and and I didn't, I just didn't know what to do with it.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

And I think when I when I go into, if you go into a space, this is a thought that I've had that when you go into to a church that is monoethnic, that may be a gospel-believing preaching church, but they the message that teaches without even speaking is that we believe the gospel is powerful for salvation, but not reconciliation. Wow, that's good, Frank. You see what I'm saying? That like that's teaching something. If you come in and all you see, and that can be the same in an all-black church or in all Latino church, or whatever, is we believe, and that's what I think what I mean when I say it, yes, it's soteriological, but it's ecclesiological. But if you walk into a church and you see people from all kinds of races, cultures, ages, rich, poor, all that kind of stuff, that says something about what the gospel actually does after salvation. Yeah. Because praise God for the salvation piece, right? But he's not leaving you there, not transforming you.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

That's so good, Frank, because even salvation, like an aspect of salvation is reconciliation. Yes. Horizontally but vertically. Yes. And so there is a point to your saying, I think it's great to consider like when we see that the gospel unites people horizontally and the complexities even of staying reconciled, staying united, navigating through tensions of cultures and backgrounds, it also can help cement in us that to be made one with God required a reconciliation that was complicated. That's right. That that meant a perfect God was gonna have to find a way to dwell with sinners. That's right. And the only way he could do that was to take on flesh, to become like us, to, to, to accommodate himself, to, you know what I'm saying, to condescend to our level, and how complicated that is. Yes. And and sometimes it can be easy to think, especially people who've been walking with the Lord for a minute, oh, you know, the the I'm worthy of, or I'm you're like, I I he did I I deserve to be saved, or this was an easy thing. Um, or Christianity is about comfort now versus it's the hard work of reconciliation. And I hear you that realization really like popping off in your 20s. Sat there for an extended period of time, and then what changed? So how do you how the the that seed of disruption in your 20s eventually burst into something, yes, something else?

SPEAKER_00 16:33

Um the Lord brought us to Gray City Church. Okay. I mean, that's the truth. And and I remember just to tell on myself a little bit, I had a friend that had actually been telling me about Gray City. He was coming at the time, and we were doing our church, and he kept saying, You gotta come check out my church, you gotta come check out my church. I was like, all right, well, come check it out. And he had told me a little bit about the church and giving me a little bit of vibe and feel for it.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

Um had he taught culture or multi-ethnic. He did, he had taught them about that.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

He did. He had mentioned that he's like, you know, that's part of the church and part of the church makeup. And so, you know, like any good reform fellow, I went to the website. And where did I go first? What we believe, you know, because you know, I got you got to check the theology, right? And and I was probably heresy hunting and I was like, I bet they messed some of this stuff up. I don't know if we'll correct them or something, you know. So I'm looking and I'm going through and I'm like, no, this is pretty good. And then I think I looked at your picture and I was like, is he a black guy? I think he's a black guy. I wonder what his theology is like. You know what I mean? These kinds of things that to be dead honest, I was coming in with. So I wonder where he's gonna be coming from. I wonder what this is gonna be like. And then we came. We never left, by the way. We came one time, we never left, so the Lord had it for us. But what I saw was um the mandate in action, the mandate being lived out. And that just confronted, confronted my idea of assimilation. Because I thought when I came in, I looked around and thought, this is great. We just have a lot of people here who look different. But I remember a particular Sunday, there was a young lady um up toward the front, man, and she was just hoping. I mean, she was she was laughing. And I remember early on, and I remember thinking, somebody needs to deal with that. That's disruptive. I brought my culture in with me. Yeah, yeah. And I just thought we need to fix that. And then I started looking around and I realized not only is no one planning on talking to her, she's being encouraged. Yeah, and now others are doing it. And it's like, you know, when you're white, you're just like, oh, what's gonna happen? We're gonna get it's gonna get crazy in here. But something just started to change. I started, I started thinking about why is she doing that? What is she expressing? What am I missing? What what aspect, what, what the emotional component of my worship? Is it okay to worship emotionally? Yes, it is. That, by the way, is also in scripture. And I had read it, yeah, but had somehow ignored that too. Yeah, um, and so just kind of sort of seeing some of these things and realizing this is different because we're making the leadership in this church is making decisions, and it is some type of the language to prefer. And that confronted me. I remember thinking, you know, another one of my thoughts was why why are we having to sing this? Why are we being asked to do these things? Are we just doing that for the black folks in this church? Yeah, and then having to go, yeah, we are. We are. Yeah, and thinking things like, well, what does that mean for us white folks? Are we just gonna be forgotten? Like, really? You know, it's saying this stuff out loud is hard. I'm not preaching. Because it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing, but it's just like, are we gonna be forgotten? We've never been forgotten. I've been the majority culture my entire life. Yeah, I've never been forgotten. I've always been highlighted, but it was just like confronting all this selfishness in me and sin in me. And I just I had to get the Lord, just had to bust me up. And part of that was saying, you you you have a theology that you it you are not living this out. That's good. And that's good. Your theology isn't even as tight as you think it is. You know what I mean? I do, you don't know as much as you think you know.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

No, I appreciate that little little uh shout out, little witness to the Gray City. I think uh we've definitely experienced a bunch of challenges, and I think we've erred in in lots of ways. But the whole punish prefer framework is one we use of when any decision we make, who are you punishing, who are we preferring, which I think is a great thing to recognize. Every decision has a cultural framework that it's coming from. And so if you don't consider it, you implicitly unknowingly make decisions that are preferring people you just don't know. Right. You're gonna always do it. But then the the point too of like when you when you uh when you do certain things or you have different cultural cultures in a space, it decenters you. Yes. Like the the cultural framework you're used to isn't always preferred to the same degree, and then you're forced to go, why do I like that? This is what I one of the things I love too, and I've wrestled with this at times is going, Do I want to worship this way because I think that the scriptures lead me to worship this way, or is it just because it's most comfortable to me? Right. And it's not that it's wrong in all senses to be comfortable, but the question is like, is am I am I doing this in some ways because it's comfortable to me? I want to stay comfortable and in a sense, I want to kind of lean into my flesh versus going, hey, this other way might challenge the way that I think about it. I remember being uh at this Korean youth retreat that I was teaching at, and it was dope. It was probably a hundred Korean youth. I was the only black eyed area as like one other white person. And it was super, I felt honored to be asked as N DC. And they there's this moment. This dude was dope from my perspective. He's a Korean guy, grew up in Sydney, Australia. So he had an Australian accent. I was like, and he he he he led this prayer time. And it was unlike anything I'd ever seen. And he just was calling out, he was calling out prayers into the microphone, but he was kind of giving groups uh or telling groups that hey, you go pray together like this, or or you go confess, or you go recognize, or you encourage somebody, or is anybody to hug you go? And I was like, what is happening? And it was all over the place. And I was so moved. And I remember thinking, I don't ever pray corporately like this. There is way more of a protection in me, like maybe it's what me praying for everyone or something, but not this risk in prayer that I that I love how you know the scriptures of the person who beats the breast up to fellow like this all audacious prayer of the widow. Yes. Um, and it was so encouraging and challenging and inspiring. Yes. And there's ways in which it kind of challenges our presuppositions or comforts to see somebody from a different culture do something we've never done as it relates to God. And you go, Can I do that too? Can I do that?

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Can I express emotion like the like the woman? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Um and yeah, to step into it, do it. And yes, it it it's a little uncomfortable at first, a little frightening, but then to find the joy in it. To see, you know, we recently had um some ladies in our church that danced and it impacted me so powerfully. I I was just in tears in my in my seat. It was so absolutely beautiful. But one of the things for me personally that no one would have known, my my private meditation as they did that to the Lord was Lord, a few years ago, I would have been very critical and judgmental of this whole thing. And now it has just transformed. This is your work, and this is beautiful, and it is ushering me into worship, and it was just a powerful experience for me to see some of that change and see that over time.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's cool to see that it sounds like being in the space too. It changed, you say it changed you. It changed me. Yeah, it's not just even learning to live people, it's like changing the way you relate to God, yes, and worship.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Yes, and it I mean, it it's too easy to say it's added color, but it is added color. You know, I have a technicolor worship now and a more technicolor view of heaven now. And like anything, when you add color and when you it just makes it more beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Yeah. What what I'm curious if you even had specific things of thinking about theology and transformation for yourself. Are there any doctrines, core beliefs you'd say, I used to think this, now I think this. Almost in a binary way, like I used to think this, now I think this, or I used to do this, and now I do this, like the transformed Frank. Because that's what I hear you're saying. Yeah, like there's ways in which, I mean, you are a Christian, but there's ways in which the Lord has continued to sanctify you, change you, grow you to make you more like him through multicultural spaces and seeing the implications of the whole gospel. I'm curious whether are there any phrases, words, or things you're like, man, I used to this and I used to that. That might even be helpful for somebody else to think about, like, how do I think about theology of the gospel? Do I consider this implications or how do I think about myself?

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Yeah. I think one of the and I hope this will answer that. I think I think one of the the big things for me in in Philippians 2 and this that wonderful passage about Christ and the humility that he showed and and sort of being emptied out. And one of the big transformative things for me was coming to a place where I learned and believed that everyone had something to teach me. That I needed to step into every experience as a learner and not a teacher, um, to be curious about why people do the things that they do. And that I don't always have to agree with everything that they do. That's fine too. But to appreciate the the beauty of what people are doing. And that just kind of helped me because I could start going in with a new framework now that when I was confronted with something that was uh from another culture or another practice or preference in a certain not to immediately think that it was wrong or to immediately think, why are we doing that, but just to to be curious about it. What drives this? What what what's behind this in that person? And how could I learn from this? What portions of this do I want to embrace? Right? Because I'm always also gonna be true to how the Lord has made me. Yeah. Because I think that's an that's another thing, is we're not talking about shape shifting. That's not what I want to learn. I I don't want to learn how to just go into another cultural context and shape shift for that situation. That's not it. I've got to know myself. That's good. That's to to be of use in a in a in a multicultural context. I have got to know myself. So I go in and I can take and I can learn and I can love and I can, but then there's other things I go, that's not me. Yeah, I'm doing that. Yeah. That's okay. And that's fine. That's what I love when I when I look around at our church and I see the different expressions of worship. And I see somebody who is up, I mean, hands as high as they can stretch him, face to the heavens, singing it out. And that is beautiful. And I can look over here and see a person sitting down, head bowed, and trust that they're in a moment. Yeah. And they have worshiping as well. So I think that I don't know that that answers the question, but that's one of the first things for me was just this understanding of be humble, be curious. You know, we we we should all be learners all the time. And I'm always asking what someone has to teach me.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

No, I would love to lean into that just to tease that a little bit more because I think that's that's key for a lot of people listening. Is it's like come coming with that heart of humility to learning, bro, and just see what what's the Lord got for me. Oh, maybe I can sing like that, maybe I can express like that. But then how the being yourself. And I think a lot of times I've seen people who actually really care about cultural competency, growth, different cultures, but in an attempt to love somebody, they kind of act, it gets kind of foolish.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Because they're trying to like to not, they're trying to not be themselves anymore. And they don't have an awareness. So, how do you, like today, after some of the transformation that we're taking you through, how do you be Frank Legree, you know, theologically educated white man in a multicultural space? Like, how do you bring you in?

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Yeah, I think part of that is um accepting who I am in Christ, rejoicing and celebrating the culture that I come from. Um, because the answer is not shying away from your culture or suddenly condemning. There are aspects of my culture and my background that were certainly wrong, but I love my culture.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

And loving who God made me to be. And so I can come into a space, and I'm working on this. This is a this is uh an ongoing project, uh, by the way, but coming into that space and saying, This is this is what this is what I bring, this is what you bring. It's almost like that that um that that kid's uh story, stone soup, the idea that they they were trying to um make a soup for this village, and everybody comes out and brings their own little piece of flavor. I got some vegetables, I got some meat, I got some rice, I got some broth, I got some nuts, right? Yeah. So I'm just bringing my little piece. Yeah. And I can celebrate your piece. And I can celebrate that what we're doing is is gonna, we're gonna bring this thing together and make something very beautiful that can impact the world.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

That's beautiful. I mean, that's that's first Corinthians 12. That's first Corinthians 12. It's this you I mean, that's first Corinthians 12. And it's to operate in the cultural space, we've got to know ourselves. Like what are our spiritual gifts? Yes, what is our cultural background? Yes, what do we add? And to not minimize it. Because sometimes I think the tension in multicultural space too is is in some of the questions you were asking when you first came to Great City is almost, do I matter? And I think it's hard because in making decisions, different people do have different voices here or there, but to be able to celebrate, and that's one thing I think is important, is even as we talk about a broken history and a broken record of things in the church, to be able to also celebrate each other. Absolutely. And and to know, like, and it's something when you actually have deep fellowship, I think, cross-ethnically, when you got black friends and other it's like, oh no, they love me. Right. They love me for who I am, they don't expect me to be anything other than I am. They appreciate me and they're still them. Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

And in fact, when I try to act, like they laugh at me. They laugh at me because it's like you don't have to do that. Right, yeah, you good, you know, you do good, just be white. It's all right.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

And I think that's what would be so beautiful is in some ways, you know, for a majority culture member, uh, I found a lot of people struggle to know do I have a culture? What's my culture like? Because when you are used to being around the same, you can have less of an awareness of what's unique. Absolutely. And so that's why oftentimes uh POC, who's a minority in our country, is usually more aware. We're usually more aware of the cultural distinction because we have a contrast. That's right. But when a majority person enters into a multi-ethnic space, it's an opportunity for contrast that some that can be can create tension initially, but I actually think can deepen a love and appreciation for self. Right. Uh, because you see, oh, I can bring that this is a unique thing about me that I can bring into this space uh that you might not have known previously. That's right. So, but Frank is uh so thinking about young seminarians, uh young churchmen, or just people from majority culture who haven't really leaned into uh multicultural space, either either in practice or in theology, what advice would you have for them?

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Yeah, I think there's a couple of things that I can think of, and I've I've probably mentioned you know all of them along the way, but um first recognize that this idea of culture, this idea of all nations, this idea of embracing caring about all people, again, this is this is not new, this is biblical, and you have probably been ignoring it, so be humble. Um, if you're particularly you know young feminine just thinking, go in and go to your Bible, start with this. This is where I've I've tried to commit to always starting. When you object to a thing, I say, Lord, show me my sin first. That's where I start. Spirit, show me my sin first. What am I guarding? What about this bothers me because it's gonna make me uncomfortable, draw me out, sanctify me, expose selfishness, be humble. Okay. So start there. Um, and and and think about that too. Um, again, I mentioned Philippians 2. Recognize that you can learn from everybody. Everyone has something to teach you. That's good. And and drop your this is very hard to do, but start crucifying your cultural presuppositions. Okay, crucify those because they're gonna limit you from getting all that you can get from a person. If you go in and you've got this cultural presupposition about somebody, um crucify that. Yeah, so you can say, I can learn from you in this regard, whatever that is. Um, and then know yourself. Know yourself, get grounded in that gospel that we love so much. Yeah, get grounded in who you are in Jesus Christ, be excited about who you are in Jesus Christ, that you are fearfully and wonderfully made. There's one you, yeah, so be you, yeah. You know, if you want to be different, just be you, somebody just like you, and then confidently go into the space as you, understanding that you're gonna bump up against people who are confidently being them. Right. You know what I mean? And that's okay too. Um, I was listening to a podcast the other day, and I'm laughing because I like your slides, by the way. And this this this fellow was talking about how he's a black fellow, and he was talking about how he got, I think he got invited to the gospel coalition to uh to teach. And he's like, Yeah, I gotta go on that stage with my slides on. Oh for real. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's like, This this this black lady in the conversation or in the congregation got to me afterwards. She's like, So why are you going to them slides on? And he's like, Because that's who I am. And what did he say? I I was I was I wasn't saved out of my culture, I was saved to like benefit my culture, something like that. Yeah, that's good. He's making this point that that's who I am. Yeah, gospel coalition or at my house. That's who I am. Yeah, and I just thought that was great. That's a fellow who knows himself and has a confidence in the Lord. I didn't he'n not trying to be arrogant, he's just being who he is. Yeah. And I think that's great. I think we learn from that.

SPEAKER_02 35:46

That is so good because there's so much when we listen to people communicate about the gospel. There's so many ways we're looking at them trying to and implicitly judging or implicitly thinking you need to say it this way, you need to use this vocabulary this way. And what happens is I think instead of just appreciating Christ, we actually start to elevate things we don't need to elevate. Absolutely. When you see things in their unique cultural expression, I think you can appreciate those things rightly. And Christ actually gets more glorified, like Christ gets more magnified in your heart. Because you're like, it actually isn't that we sing like this. It isn't that they wear a tie, it isn't that they deliver the Bible just this particular way or pray with what I would interpret as reverence. They love Jesus and the manifestation of their love looks unique to them. Yes. And I think that's so beautiful. And I just, you know, I pray we all take away what you said is we could be confidently us in in Christ while having that cultural humility. Yes. And that's the tension. That's the tension. That's the tension. But it's the tension of multi-ethnic work, multicultural work. And it's hard work. It is our work. It is our work. Amen. Well, it's good to be with you, Frank Legreen. I'm glad to be here. Thanks for being on the podcast for real. Uh, it's a good conversation. And uh, as always, we we really hope it blesses you. It's a chance to grow some cross cultural competency, and uh, you continue to check out all the things we got going on, which is a podcast, it's resources um and blogs that are popping off uh all the time. So be blessed, CQ audience.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Yeah, thank you.