From the Block to the Boardroom with KeJuan Robinson | Ep. 4

From the block to the boardroom. What does it actually take to build something that translates across cultures?

This conversation moves past ideas and into action. Because building something truly diverse requires more than good intentions.

We get into the tension: unity vs. uniformity, the real cost of diversity, and what it looks like to honor the parts of the body of believers that have been overlooked. It’s uncomfortable at times. It’s imperfect. But it’s necessary.

The truth? You don’t need to have it all figured out. But you do need the right posture, the right people, and a willingness to grow.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

From the block to the border, from the portal to the portal. The thinking part cannot exist. But it's kind of thing how culture touches everything from the cultural border view. Just like a pitch one of the water. So today we're swimming with Kewon Robinson, ladies and gentlemen.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Yeah, happy to be back. You know?

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Well are we here? We're going to be talking about from the block to the boardroom. So tools that translate and help in cross-cultural work. I am Will Plunk, Lead Pastor of Great City Church, executive director of the CQ Initiative, and Keywon Robinson, a friend of the podcast, right here. So how you feeling today, Kewan?

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Yeah, it's good. It's good to be back. You know, it's always good to come and chopping up with you. Exciting to talk about from the block to the boardroom. It's also just really fun to say. From the block to the boardroom. You know what I mean? But no, no, I'm excited to get the chat, reflect on some of my experiences, and hopefully it can be helpful.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Yeah, yeah. That's how you know one of the things that I was thinking about, because I'm like, you know, we film it up here in my space, and you got your luckies on. I got my North slides. That's kind of block to the boardroom. Facts, facts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Specific boardroom block, you know what I mean? You don't know which one is the which.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Uh, but it really is, uh, as we were thinking about that. This is one of the values, you know, of CPU is from the block to the boardroom, thinking about wanting to have cross-cultural tools that actually help you. So we're not just talking about race and culture and ethnicity, but we're going, what does it look like to actually have tools and practical phrases and even practices that have worked and really helped shape us in how we do cross-cultural ministry and cross-cultural work? And so this has come about for us through a lot of heartache really and seasons where we have, as a church in particular, gone. What does it look like for us to not just talk about it, but be about it? Because we have always talked about race and culture and taught it, but there have been times where we get to moments where we're like, are we gonna pay the cost to do cross-cultural work? So to kick off our time though, I wanted to read a little passage from 1 Corinthians chapter 12. And this is a, I think this is a bars passage in regards to uh diversity and uniqueness and how to treat people, because oftentimes people think, okay, we should treat everybody the same. Right. And there's there's a good, I think there's a good view of that, like, or the intention is often good, but oftentimes it represents not recognizing how important differences are. So, anyways, in 1 Corinthians chapter 12, this is the classic passage on the body and what does it look like to relate as the body of Christ, which is the church. Uh, Paul writes, the eye cannot say to the hand, I don't need you. And the head cannot say to the feet, I don't need you. On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem weaker are indispensable. And the parts we think are less honorable, we treat with special honor. And the and the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty. And so his point really is that in the Church of Corinth, there's division around spiritual gifts. Some are more highly valued, and there's jealousy. And and the parts that are often actually treated as the least in the church, which you could think like the the lady who comes and cleans up or sets stuff up, or the prayer lady in the back rather than the front person in the front. Right. The the people who actually often are treated at the least honor deserve special honor and are supposed to be treated like that. Yeah. Which means you don't treat everybody the same. Right. Like you actually treat people different based on their uniqueness, not less or greater love, right, but but you relate to them differently. Yeah. And so I feel like that's an important uh passage to frame our conversation today.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Yeah, for sure. And I think it's really important to think about that because I think there's a lot of qualms with that element of, oh, we should be treating people the same. You know what I mean? It's like, what does this mean that we're gonna be extra intentional to this demographic? Or what does this mean that we're gonna be extra intentional to this group of people? Yeah, right. It's like you know, they can't do that. It's like y'all just putting somebody on the pedestal. Like, what are you doing? Um, but I do think that passage is really good because it just shows that there is a there's like a gospel call to, oh, like we are supposed to like be respecting and thinking about and being intentional with people according to their uniqueness and difference rather than just being like, oh, it's an evil, even playing field, like we just don't do everything the same with everybody.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Right. And I think one of the things you're saying popped in my head was that when it comes to practices, some people often think about rightfully so hiring. And in white normative spaces, a lot of times when a person of color is hired, they go, did he just hire them because they're black?

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

And you can go, oh, well, you know, treatment special, like so. I'm gonna hire just a black person just because we need a black person. And I think that uh what I'm gonna say to that is there's not a kind of cross-cultural competency and what that black person actually has to offer. Oftentimes the values in the organization are based on one cultural group, like the values of a singular cultural group. And so the value that the person of color color brings might not be the exact same values, this cultural group values, but it's a whole different set of strengths and skills to help the organization. But those are the kind of questions we're gonna talk about. For sure, for sure. Um, so for us, again, we you know serve the same church, and there was a season where before our church was actually multi-ethnic, where we uh I really felt an unction from the Lord, I would say, through Trager to be like, we can't just be talking about this uh life of diversity in a multi-ethnic church. Like, we gotta be about it. And it really to the point is like, well, how do we do it? We've prayed about it a lot, we've talked a lot about it, we've taught about it, we believe in it, but what are we gonna do? And so there was this moment where uh sociologists define a multi-ethnic church as at least uh no more than 80% of one ethnic group represent representing the church. Right. And so uh I very much remember looking back right and thinking back, coming to a meeting, P1's in this meeting, right? It's our staff. And I'm feeling led for us to just commit six months to a season to fight to be a multi-ethnic church. And at that point, we were 90-10, meaning 90% white, 10% POC, people of color. And so I remember sitting at this table. It was very intense. And I had all the staff. I they they was getting confused about I was gonna have to stand up or sit down. Right, right. I think I said everybody stand up first. And I said, hey, if you're committed to uh fighting for our church to be a multi-ethnic church, uh sit down and we're gonna go together. But if not, say stand up and like basically you're not gonna be a part of what we're about to do. No, and really I was like to be committed is one to believe that the scriptures teach it. Like you don't need more convincing. You believe the scriptures teach it and and that it's gonna be good for our church. But two, I remember saying that I believe the Lord has brought the right team uh for us to do it. And then three, like we're gonna pray like we've never prayed before and do things like we've never done before so that our church grows to become a legitimate multi-ethnic church in six months timeline. And uh praise God, can you want step down was the part?

SPEAKER_02 7:12

I did, I did, I did. Uh through some through some nice intense uh quickly pray prayer and encouragement. I was like, you know what, I am in for this, you know what I'm saying? But it, I mean, it it is super easy to feel like you're not like equipped for the work. And it's super easy to feel um like the task itself, especially historically given where we are, like in the country, being in Charleston, it's like, man, it's it's easy to just see that as just like this massive mountain to climb. And like, what am I like? What do I have to give? What do I have to offer? Um, but really having a team, um including a leader that really believed in me and us, it's like, no, we actually we actually can't do this. So um it was it was really cool, really hard time, but um, the Lord obviously did it.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

But but yeah, that's been great. He did. We learned a lot too. For sure. We learned a lot, we got some new tools that they were very helpful. Yeah, uh, we made a lot of mistakes, and then but by the end, we did the Lord blessed us. Yeah, you know, we have to get the church now. Um, but you said something, speak to feeling not equipped because I think even before we talk about tools, for many people it can be like, well, maybe the tools are for them or those people or the leader of this, and maybe I'm listening right now, and I don't really have a huge position of leadership in the church, or I don't I don't really have a diverse background, or I've never really I think the Bible teaches like speak to not feeling like not feeling equipped and love the Lord kind of working you in that yeah for sure today.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

There's a there's a couple styles that I feel like I think of when I look back. Part of it was really even experience in terms of like trying to turn around what an organization like looks like and feels like and operates. Like, I think I was just kind of just like nervous. It's like, what is that, what does that actually mean? And how can I have that level of impact? Um, I think one of the things that can uh cause someone to feel like they're not equipped is just not a lack of belief in the vision, but more so a lack of belief in in people to like believe in it. Like you know what I'm saying? Does that make sense? It does make sense. It's like, oh, like it's thinking you might believe in it, but one of these people are believing them. Right, right. It's like the actual like people that are gonna go out and do like along with me, it's like, wait, like, are people gonna be in for this? Is this just gonna like make everything turn around? Like, and that's like a that's a low, kind of a low faith thing, but also it's just like it was a hard time. Like we had conversations with people that weren't for it um at different periods, and knowing that this was gonna kind of shake stuff up, I think some of that's just fear, like you know what I mean, and like not really knowing, like, okay, what is this actually about to be like um from that side of it? So there's that. Um, but honestly, for me, in the moment, it just felt like how like how can I actually have that sort of impact? So you know what I mean? It's like, how can I? And then when you have history, like I had been working for a couple years at that point of being here, doing the work, talking about it, teaching about it, whatever, you know, relating to people in it, to say, like, it felt like we were, we were doing stuff like to a certain degree. So I was like, man, like what is this about? Like, what is this about to look like? You know, it's like what what are the things? So really, I think it's like an unknown territory. Like it felt like we were paving the way, um, or you were paving the way, the Lord's paving the way for something that was we just had never done before. Yeah. So it's just like, what, like, what do I need? Like, what do we need? So honestly, I think a lack of a quit, uh, acquittess, I guess, in that case would be, oh, like how, like, what are the tools? Like, it's like not necessarily even knowing like what are the things there that like can we can actually use to go and do this. You know what I mean? Because I was like, okay, like, all right, so what does this mean? Like, what we about to turn? Like, we got some books, we got whatever. Um, which we're talking about a lot of stuff, but I do think just even a lack of awareness of where to go. Because it's like, okay, you can Google a lot of stuff, or yeah, especially that you can chat and whatever now, but you can Google a lot of stuff. It's like, oh, I want to learn how to do a crochet. I want to learn how to crochet. Like, I'm gonna do, I want to do that, I just find a video. It's being made incredible, not incredible. It's gonna be made incredible. Um but like it's like, oh, if I want to learn how to do that, if I want to know the steps in doing that, I might have never done it before, but it's like, okay, I can just go find out. There ain't really much out there of like, okay, how can you turn your 90-10 church to an 80-20 church in six months? Like, it's just like it's just gonna take some like intentional prayer, like creativity planning, but it's just like it was an unknown path.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Oh, facts, bro. And I was thinking how a couple things. When I I think of the quote, I forget who said it, but the best way to get a ship built isn't to give somebody instructions, but a yearning for the sea. So you have a yearning for the sea, but I always think about it too. It's like, if you have a it's also gonna get built way faster if you also have instructions on how to build a ship. For sure. And and it's like I think our staff, and you like we had the desire, yeah, but we it really a lot of times there aren't instructions. And and a lot of people uh haven't. And sometimes the Lord has blessed the ministry or blessed organization, and really they do have more of a multi-ethnic, multicultural space. Yeah, and it really was the miraculous move of God. And then there's others who who have a yearning, but almost like a how do I how do I do it? Um, and so yeah, that that that's that's so true. It's like what are actually some of the tools? Some of the things the Lord birthed out of it for us was was it's it's right here. We had these like it's 80, 20 quotes. This was the season for us, but we got them, you know, written down and things, and they were quotes that uh kind of helped guide us, almost like signposts, or I've heard Larry Osborne call them plumb lines that that helped basically write our direction as a staff or an organization. And I think they provide some really helpful tools. Like one is to eat the fish and spit out the bones. And this was something that was very important to us, and how we mean it is is when you take in information, sometimes there's there's there's good truth and nourishment, but there's gonna be bones in it. Yep, and sometimes we found even early on before this season of our church is is a lot of folk who had done a lot of the cross-cultural work were non-Christians, right? So DEI, things like this, right? Like a lot of a lot of, I would say good work is was done by non-Christians, but then if you give that type of work to a church or to a Christian organization, you go, well, do you believe everything? Right, right. And you're like, do I do I to and and that was providing confusion? Like, like, okay, well, what is our theological grounding in some of this stuff because of that work? And so we had to help teach our church to go, no, there are things that are good and things that are bad, and how do we help you create a lens to think through them to recognize theologically all truth is God's truth because Jesus is the truth. Theologically, uh, Exodus 18, Moses is taught by Jethro on how to delegate the to the people he lead and create order. This is affirmed in the narrative of the Exodus account. And uh Jethro was a non-Christian, he's a non-Yahweh follower, he was his father-in-law. Yep. In Acts 17, you have Paul citing uh poets and philosophers, pagan poets and philosophers, and saying they were right. And then Paul does the same thing in Titus chapter one to Timothy about, and it's one of the funniest things, in my opinion, the Bible, because he's he's quoting again, he's quoting a pagan prophet and saying that he was right. And he says all Cretans are gluttons and and lions or something like that. He was right. Oh wow, that's crazy. But the point is really to say, and it's the doctrine of common grace, that that that you don't have to be a Christian to be right or to say something that's true. And and so really the best question is what's true? Not just the the source is important, but to say what's true. And so to try to help equip our people to think through, okay, we can use some of this stuff, and that doesn't mean it's bad. Yeah. Um, but we do want to explicitly state the things that we disagree with. And so that was the thing I think even your organization, when you bring people in, you have different cultural groups to be able to say, we affirm this and we don't affirm this. But even that, but we can still actually work together or dismaterial things like that.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Yeah, for sure. I think I think that's so important because what you said about non-Christians putting out really good work, I think there has, in terms of the forefront of like justice, for example, it's like there's so, so many, so much helpful literature out there that has been written for years and years. Like this ain't a new thing, right? But it's like that non-Christians have been writing because they they have seen the injustice of this world. But if we were to throw away all of that work to just be like, okay, like it wasn't written by a Christian, like we would miss out on what, on what how we can actually get this thing done. Because there's a lot of smart, real, real, real smart non-Christians that have done tons and tons and tons of study and tons of work um and just have lived on this on this earth and see the brokenness. And that's the thing about common grace. It's like God, God has sprinkled himself all over the place. You know what I'm saying? Like so truth, so truth really does exist in so many different areas, even if a person that is proclaiming it don't even know that it's God's truth, right or disagrees that it's God's truth. You know what I'm saying? Um, so yeah, I do think I'm like and out of a when you're a leader in an organization, especially a larger, larger organization, it can be hard to be like, okay, how can I communicate this with enough nuance just so everybody can hear that I don't agree with everything? And you kind of that you kind of just kind of have to let that go like over time, you know? It's like you gotta be intentional uh with what you're using, thinking about how you're personally eating the foods phenomenal bones. But as a leader, you also have to be like, man, like I can I can over-communicate. It's like this is not what we think completely, but this is what we see from this source. Um, but then there's also this component of it that's like, okay, how can I just like I'm I'm gonna say that and I'm gonna just release it at that point.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

That's so good. And I think to the point of like, we're we wanna, if you give the people the tool, this is how we operate, a framework for common grace. Uh, we're just because we say it, like we're not saying we agree everything with it. Even in my seminary, it's like the the professors assign readings that they don't agree with, all of that, but they just think it would be useful to engage with. Yep. And if you if people have that framework, then there is a higher tolerance of okay, I can engage with this, and I don't have to agree with everything, that's all right. Which actually helps people live in like lives that are unified but not uniform. That's another one of our books. Yeah because it's like if we're uniform, then everything has to, we have to agree on everything. And so I can't be in relationship with you if there's disagreement. Yep. But sometimes it's not just I can't be in relationship with you if there's disagreement. It's like I can't be in relationship with you if there's a difference. Yep. If you want to worship this way, your style is this way, right? My style is that way. And I think that actually gives a very diminished, small, truncated view of the gospel and the church that is actually calling us to live together in unity, not conformity.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Yeah, no, and I I was just about to hit on that one too, because I think that right there is one of the biggest issues in terms of the pursuit of uh diversity, equity, and inclusion that we have, I would say. Yeah. Unity, not uniformity. So what do I mean by that? It's like I think we have seen this increase in desire of what it looks like to pursue diverse um spaces, diverse education, diverse churches, whatever it is. But a lot of people want those diverse spaces stripped from what actually makes it diverse. So it's like it's just, it's just we want, we want the presence of it. We want the we want to be able to see the difference in the room. Um, but we don't actually want the different expressions. We don't actually want the different backgrounds, we don't want the different experiences. Um, so we do, a lot of, a lot of people want this uniformity, um, which is just assimilation. It's just like we just want people to come into this space and assimilate to the dominant culture here. Um, but we can say it's a it's a multicultural space because look around. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 18:52

It's like you want diversity without this discomfort. Yeah, that's what it's like you can't have diversity without discomfort. You're gonna be uncomfortable if you're gonna be able to live in a multicultural space. Right. And that's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

No, I was gonna say, yeah, and that's the that's the thing. It's like our our like addiction or our um need for comfort and not wanting to say like, not wanting to bring up the things. I mean, I'm a person that loves, like, you know, I love harmony. Like, I love that's one of my strengths, that's one of my strengths on strength finder. Like I love to kind of keep the peace. I don't want things to go go in disarray arguments and all that. Um but there has to be a level of acceptance to be like, hey, like in order to actually do this thing that God has called us to do, I have to say, okay, I'm willing to walk through the heart of this. Um, and that the heart of diversity, the heart of actual intentional uh relationship across cultures is gonna mean that there's gonna be hard things to do. Like it's just like that's just there's gonna be hard conversations. You're gonna mess up, you know, space with stuff that's that's whatever. But how do you actually walk and respond in that? Like you know what I mean, actually, actually choosing, saying, like, okay, I know that this is hard, but it's great.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Yeah, and that's the power of the gospel. Because when we love Jesus so much and we know our brother is made in the image of God, and he's my brother in Christ. Well, if I know that, then I can over like that allows me to look past a lot of offenses and allows me to stay together and it shows something says something to the world. Oh, for sure. When our churches and our Christian organizations are actually more diverse than the secular institutions. But because secular institutions are beating us on so many things, like or with diversity, it really is an indictment on Christians. Oh, for sure. That it's like they can get along with more differences than we can, even though we're mo we have Christ, right? Even though we all recognize we were so torn up that Jesus had to die for our sins, in some ways it's a huge indictment on the church. And I think, yeah, it's just what does it look like for us to recognize my bond with Jesus and how he was to me, how he came to me when I was still a sinner and died for me, how he reconciled me when I was an aggressor towards him and an offender towards him, allows me to go, you know what? I might even be offended by your difference. Yeah, I might still need some time to learn to accept that that the way you express your prayer life is legitimate, even though it's different than mine. That the way you the way you want to be taught the word of God, the way the way that you relate to time, like all that might be legitimate, but right now it's offensive to me. But still, if I have Christ, I'm gonna be able to look over that offense. Yep. Uh so yeah, I was thinking about two, two with that and and kind of kind of sliding into another one as well, uh, is just that the minority carries the majority of the burden. Yeah. And this is something to the first Corinthians 12 piece, a lot of uh majority culture folk don't realize how much a person of color gives up to be in that space. Yeah. So I loved it. Why don't you hit us with some thoughts on that? Yeah, yeah. For do you have a lot of experience with that? Yeah, no doubt.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Yeah, that's a lot of that is a lot of my experience. And I think honestly, there was a time in my life. For I feel like I didn't even really recognize that that was a part of my experience, even seeing that that was what the tension I was feeling, which would make it a lot easier to turn more towards assimilation and just kind of just settling and trying to keep the peace and whatever. But I'd say when I think about the minority carrying the majority of the burden, it's like if we are we are a church that is, we feel called and we believe that the Lord has called us to be multi-ethnic, multicultural, we have to also recognize that to come into that space as a person of color means that there is going to be components of it that is just going to be harder. Like it's like you, you are going to feel the tension of being the minority. So even that tension within itself, like having to having to represent something in a way in this space, it's like that that in itself is a harder burden to carry. Like the majority doesn't walk in and feel and feel that same and that same tension. Same thing with a small group. It's like if you are coming into this space, it's like you are the one that is carrying this weight of being the minority in this space. Um it is it is harder for you to step into this space than for everybody else to. Um so it's like that's that's that's just felt in multicultural spaces. And like people don't even really recognize it because they don't think about all the internal dynamics of what it means to be the minority in a majority space. Um, but because like simply based on the fact that they're the minority and they're so, they're so uh, that's their experience, and it feels like just like all encompass, it is all encompassing. Uh, it's like, it's like, no, that that is burdensome. Like you, that is a hard thing to do. Um to say, to say I'm gonna say no to uh what it what is historically safe in up being an all-black space. Think about think about black focus in church. It's like maybe, maybe it's your experience that it's like I grew up, I grew up in a black church, and it's like, you know, historically safe haven, like commute community hub. And it's like, but I know I'm I'm feeling this stirring like from the Lord that he might be calling me to a multi-ethnic space. You are surrendering things. You are you're so you are surrendering things by saying, I'm gonna go choose, I'm gonna choose to do this.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

The one's coming, like, okay, but what are they really surrendering? I get it's a safe space, but like they seem happy. Yeah. Like I just like, you know, and we're being so intentional with them, and and and we're kind of doing everything we know how to do, like, and they uh they're not really saying much to me. Like maybe somebody who's even in an organization who's got uh black person on their team. Yeah, you know, they're like damn, I mean, yeah. I don't know yet.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Alex never said nothing to me. Right, yeah. It doesn't matter. We pool with it we're chilling. I think one thing that can hurt with that assumption is that some people, I'll even speak for myself. It's like I don't know if I even recognize the different things that I felt internally until somebody asked me the questions. So I think some people uh in organizations in a majority culture, thinking if you're a white person, it's like, oh my god, it should be cool. He ain't never brought nothing up. It's like I wonder what it would seem like if conversations were presented or or if questions were asked to actually see, like, hey, what did this feel like? Because there's so many things that somebody might say or somebody might uh just naturally mention or a joke that somebody might throw around in the office or whatever, um, that a black person in a in a in a majority space ain't it's like I don't even know if this is worth it for me, like this is worth my time.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

So if I so if I'm a white leader in an organization, should I walk up to to the POC, you know, let's say his name's Alex? Let's should I walk up to him and be like, so how do you feel being black here? Like what like what amongst the people? What does that look like? Yeah, what do you do?

SPEAKER_02 25:31

For sure, for sure. I think there there is a way in which you can have a conversation. I think the there is a lot around relationship that I would say has to start. Like you can't, like I as a black person myself. Right, like you're just trying to jump, jump straight in. You know what I'm saying? It's like, no, no, I don't think that's necessarily how it should work. Um, I think if you have some some some form of relationship with a person and just really say, like, hey, like I, in my organization, like for example, our church, it's like at a time, there was a time at our church where it was it was 90-10, very heavy majority white. So I would encourage somebody to have a relationship with someone to be like, hey, what does it look like for you to just like take them, take them out to lunch or like just like be saying, hey, I want like I know that this could be uncomfortable. Yeah. Because that's making you got to put yourself in that position to be uncomfortable. Not to say you can walk up with somebody and dump a bunch of questions on them, because that is tense, and you don't need to do that. Like grabbing out the cubicle. Right, right. Yeah, just like just grab them real quick. But it's like, what does it look like to say, hey, I'm trying to, like, I want our organization to grow. Like, I want, I want to grow personally and say, hey, like, what is this, like, what does this look like for you? What does this mean for you? Um, how like has there ever been times where like tension as the conversation progresses? Obviously, you can go wherever you um feel led to in the conversation. But I do think um creating space to be heard because it's like knowing that it may not feel like a safe space. So it's like kind of just taking steps towards like, how can I actually create this space? Um, but don't you also can't force it. You know what I mean? You can't you can't force somebody into that, into the light with that stuff. It's like it could be a very slow, a slow uh journey. But I do think taking like baby steps towards uh initiating that conversation, knowing that that conversation couldn't increase or create tension that wasn't there before. Yeah. Um, but knowing that if you think for your organization that this is the point, multicultural uh or multicultural organization, a multicultural leadership, all of these things is what you want. Um, you have to be willing to sacrifice that comfort in exchange for that tension so y'all can actually.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

I think too, like that's a very relational way to do it. And I think if you're a leader, there's also ways to do it that you can create, you can have a survey that's anonymous. Yeah, you can provide the context to say, hey, here, just be explicit about your presuppositions. Like, hey, we want to grow. Right. I'm not actually asking you to represent all black people and all Hispanic people. Uh, what I'm trying to do is just to say, hey, I want to learn. So I would love for you to speak to your experience, just your your personal experience. You don't have to represent your whole culture and open group. And I think there's ways like that to start it and to frame it, you know, that that's that's something you're gonna pursue. So they even know, yeah, and that can even help, to your point, create the comfort that they might even be more willing. Like if they have a leader who they believe is trying to create space, then they might, even if you don't ask the right question, if you build trust in time, might they might even come to you. Yeah, and and really if you don't have if you're from the majority culture in leadership, and you don't have people in your organization who feel safe enough with you, comfortable enough with you, trust you enough to come to you and share when you overlook something, there is no way that you have not created you've created a safe place for PSCs to thrive. Right. Like you have to have people who go, they that you know uh that they gonna they're gonna say something. Yes, and if and just to be real, there is no, we all have presuppositions and prejudice. Right. So there is if nobody is speaking to you uh about how you fall short sometimes, yeah, or about like things you've overlooked, for sure, then then then the truth is it's probably way worse than you could imagine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's worse. Yeah. Um, but let's talk about this because uh because one of the things too is like, okay, hiring. We mentioned earlier. Yeah, yeah. Do you just hire the black, like this is the thing. You just hired a black person, would you take it? This is how people hear people frame all this. Uh-huh. Do you hire, there's a majority culture organization?

unknown 29:14

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Do you hire the black person who is a B minus if you could hire a white person who is an A plus? Like, do you just go, I'm gonna take one, and I'm gonna hire the worst. Like they're not as they're not gonna be as confident that they're black, so I'm just gonna hire the black person who's a B minus, even though they the white person is an A plus. You want me to answer? No, I can't.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

I got to do that. No, I got no I got I I got a thought.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Yeah, yeah. I I think I think I'll say the question is framed wrong. For sure. It's like based on I I think that question in of itself shows ignorance, which is okay, raw ignorant in a way, uh, but it shows an ignorance that is probably not accounting for what what CQ is all about. Yep, that cross-cultural competency needs to be on the job description to begin with. Right. And and you don't have competency just because you're black, right? But if you are from a cultural group, it is most likely that you have more competency with that cultural group than somebody else who is not as familiar or from that cultural group. Right. And so I think there are, and there are things, there are experiences that that people of color have in our country that do build capacity. Same way with white people have experiences in our country that build different capacities. Yeah. But because of that, that shapes the way you can think about your organization. And the question really is like, do you value cross-cultural competency? Are you trying to reach not only black people but a people diverse economic situation? Are you like what are you trying to do with your organization? Are your goals really to reach and to be effective in the majority culture? Is it or is it to be effective cross-culturally? Right. Like that's to me, that's the question you got to do.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Yeah, for sure. And I think, yeah, it's like it's way deeper than those two, like than those two examples. You know what I'm saying? Because like you have to think about your organization's goals, but also it's like, what do we need as an organization? If you were listening to this podcast, it's like, you probably know what you probably know. Yeah, you're thinking something about this. Um, but I do think it's important to say, like, how can I recognize, like, okay, I I know that there's so there's so much nuance here, but I have to be willing to ask the questions to even understand. It's like, so they can even know, like, this is gonna be a part of what we're doing here. You know what I'm saying? Like being being cross-culturally competent is something that no, that you don't need to be an A plus in when you start, but it's like, no, this is something that we all want to be continuing to grow in. So I think that even shifts like the type of applicants that you bring in. You know what I'm saying? Like it's like you, you are you are getting a different pool of people saying, like, no, this is something that I want to be that's like integrated in my work, integrated in what I get to do for my nine to five or whatever. Yes. Um, so I do think there's so much, there's so much nuance there that people want to simplify the question um to kind of dismiss the actual issue. You know what I'm saying? It's like people can ask that question just to kind of say, like, all right, so what would you do with this? You want a terrible organization because you're out of the geese of diversity, but that's but that's not what it is. Um, so I think I think it's just important for us to just continue to think about all the elements and components of it.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

I love that because I do think there is again another false dichotomy that if you have diversity, you have to give up effectiveness. Right. And our training in the intercultural development inventory really says the opposite. It it talks, it has a framework and it really shows how organizations that are um from the majority culture but have uh or and are mono ethnic, that they are often more effective than a multicultural team that has uh not learned to work together. But a multicultural team who's learned to work together is way more effective than a monocultural team. Yeah because you've developed diversity capacities and cross-cultural competencies and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Yeah, yeah, for sure. No, yeah. I think I think it's really cool um just thinking about the ways that I've been personally impacted by that too, because there's so there's so many different things that that come into play in terms of workplace and and how you grow. But I have really seen and felt, um, and even through the IDI, like getting qualified with that, it's like, no, there is there is a direct benefit. There is a direct benefit and growth to an organization. Yeah, like you know what I mean. It's not there is interpersonal growth, which I think is good. Um, one of the things we talk about is like there, we want it, we want our lives to be, uh we want to think for storing a diversity that doesn't just uh that does not just start with our church, but it starts at the dinner table. So it's like we want to be that for our interpersonal lives, but also just seeing that now there's data to say that like a team that is that is multicultural, that is growing in these multicultural competencies is actually gonna create a more thriving organization. Yeah. Um, I had an experience a few years back when we were trying to trying to pick speakers for um an organization. Just like, oh, like how are we gonna bring in different teachers and pastors? Um, and one of the people that was on uh my team was like, I don't want to sacrifice theological soundness for diversity. Um and I remember uh when he said that, I was like, wait, does this does this mean that there is a there is a uh a correlation between what's theologically sound and in ethnicity? Um because I was like, that don't feel right at all to me. Um but even even hearing that, there's just so there's so many um people that have this perspective of diversity that means that you lack in quality or you lack in um in knowledge or you lack in or whatever it is, um where it's just like no, like we we see that that's not true. We know that that's not true.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Yeah. Um so yeah, I just think that's no, that's dope. And I I I mean, I think that shows how a lot of people view it is like you do have to sacrifice theology or intelligence if you promote diversity, which really shows a prejudicial view. For sure. Absolutely strange. Yeah. Um, so anyways, let's rapid fire these last couple ones. Okay. So we got um what I wanted to say was oh, this here, here it is, here it is, here it is. Building a bridge means you're walked on by both sides.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Yeah, yeah, no, I can get it, I can get it quick. Rapid fire. Yeah, no, I got it. So when you are committing to this type of work, when you're committing to be a cross-culture uh bridge builder, you have to understand that the majority and the minority are gonna be walking on you. What's that mean? It's like, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be in a attacher, I want to be somebody that creates this space for these cultures to um to be in a cross-cultural space. You have to understand that there's gonna be a fence on both sides, there's gonna be tensions on both sides. Um, even thinking about the burden that's carried, there's that, there's that uh side of it. There's also this part of it that's like uh the minority may feel like you as a leader ain't doing enough. The majority feels like you're doing too much, that's specific, that's favoritism, and kind of understanding that those this type of this type of work is gonna bring up those types of tensions and conversations. Um, but that's not bad. Right. That's not bad. Nobody's working. Yeah, because as people are walking, they're getting closer into that cross-cultural space. So that's what we're forward.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Amen. The last one I'll hit with is diversity speeds up discipleship. And I think just the understanding that when you get different people together, you have a much better chance of growing, just like 1 Corinthians 12 says, because you have different gifts, different backgrounds, different strengths coming together, but it doesn't all look like rainbows and butterflies. Like coming together, the way it speeds up discipleship is through rubbing, it's through tension. Like the Bible says, iron shoppers iron chopped. It's really through the frustrations that we grow and become better. When you can when I don't know how to articulate my position or my opinion, or like why I think we should sing this many songs, or we should sing them like this, or why I think our teaching should be this way, because you think teaching should be that way, or why I think our our meetings should be like structured in this way and you think that way, or whatever. When we have different opinions, a couple things happen. One, it rubs me. Two, I am forced to articulate why I think the way I think, which helps me go, do I think why I think just because I think it or because it's in the Bible? Is it is it optional or is it not? Yeah. And um, and then I also am able to adapt and go, oh, maybe they have a perspective I haven't thought about before. And as I wrestle with my prejudice or just my opinions or strengths or personality, I get refined by somebody else's. And so it really does. And we've seen that. I think since we have been a more multi-ethnic, multicultural church, we have also seen, I would say, an increased level of discipleship and growth from our members. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

You don't, you don't get that uh same discipleship, you don't get to see that those elements of who God is working on and how he's working through his people when you're only in a monocultural space. You literally are missing out. Like you literally are missing out. So I totally agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

Yeah, well, that's the word to go, is you're missing out if you don't do this work for sure. And I think that's it. It's like no shame, but it's just there is a lot that God has in store when you start doing this work. So that's from the block to the bullroom. Yep, yeah. We did it, bro. Yeah, man. So hey, be blessed, and that's always fun talking. Yep, appreciate.