Assimilation to Authenticity with KeJuan | Ep. 6

How do you lead as a person of color in a predominantly white space? This conversation holds tension: pursuing unity while carrying the weight that often comes with it. The pressure to assimilate. The exhaustion of navigating difference. The challenge of leading in a way that stays true to who you are. Because unity isn’t the same as uniformity. We talk about what it means to reject assimilation, create space for authentic expression, and lead in a way that reflects how Jesus made you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

From the block to the boardroom, from the pulpit to the pew, the CQ podcast exists to help you raise your cultural fluency by discussing how culture touches everything from a Christian worldview. Just like a fish swims in water, we swim in culture. And today we're swimming with Keewan Robinson, ladies and gentlemen. Back, a friend of the podcast. Yes. So, like always, I'm Will Plunk, lead pastor of Gray City Church, but executive director of the CQ Initiative, where we are here to help people grow in cross-cultural competency or cultural fluency. And we I think this conversation is going to be a good one. But who are you, Kewan, again, before we tell them what the topic?

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Yeah, I'm I'm Keewan Robinson. I am the director of ministry operations, DMO for short, at Gray City Church. And yeah, been been doing this type of work for a little bit. It's been it's been fun. It's been cool to jump on these podcasts, get to talk with you a little bit, um, really reflect on a lot of my experiences, but hopefully somewhat be helpful to people that want to listen.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

That's right. Today we're gonna get to hear about the Clemson FCA. Yeah, which I'm excited about. That is gonna be fun. So what's the topic? The topic is we're talking about what it's like as a person of color to lead or lead in uh PWI, a predominantly white institution. And so that's something we both have a lot of experience with. I think a lot of the listeners do. And before you check out, you go, hey, that's not me. I think if you lean in today, I think that you'll find one, that there's empathy and sympathy so that you can help the person of color who might be leading you to survive and thrive. But two, I think it's also gonna create some competencies as we talk testimonials, so that you even think how do people endure uh in spaces? How do you endure in spaces where there's a great cost, where you feel like you're getting walked on by both sides? So it's gonna be a lovely conversation today.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah, and it'll it'll be interesting to even just see where it all goes because I think of a lot of different emotions when I think about a lot of my history of leading in PWIs. Um, some like gladness, fun, joy, and then some like real, real anger, rage, like just really struggling with it at different points. So I'm really hoping that it will be helpful. And I'd like to double tap what you said about sympathizing and empathizing. Um, I think a lot of us can check out of content whenever we feel like it may not necessarily relate to us directly and there might not be tangible action steps. Um, but I think the way that you can actually relate to people based on what we might talk about today will be super impactful, if not more impactful than something that might have been a directive. So I'm I'm excited to get to talk about it wherever people are listening to this. I'd love, I just can't wait to see what it does.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

So amen, I one of the things I've I've thought about this for a while because I have most of my life has been leading MPWIs. Right. For sure. I've found myself a leader fast, and then I found the places I've led have normally a lot of them have been predominantly white institutions, churches in particular. And so it has been a thing that I have found, oh, yo, a lot of people actually don't talk about this. They talk about what it's like to be a person of color in a majority space, but not what it's like to be the leader as a person of color of a majority culture. It's like you have your own culture, you're a minority, but you're expected to lead all these majority people. Yeah, and when your culture comes in conflict, what do you do?

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

So uh what what got you your first experience was a large one. Right, it's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Let's talk, let's talk Clemson FCA a little bit. Yeah, it's been fun. So um, as I probably have mentioned before on the pod, I led uh Clemson FCA, which is uh campus ministry at Clemson and Fellowship with Christian non-athletes. Correct. Um yes, I was just about to say, so I did not play any sports, contrary to popular belief. Um, when I tell people I went to Clemson, but the FCA at Hold on real quick, why do they think you played a sport at Clemson? Uh I don't know. I think I think it's just because I got that football presence about when you're black and sports, a large black man. That's how I obviously went there. Um scholarship. No, I'm just kidding. Go ahead for sure. Uh but it's not it's not athletes, they have like a student huddle, but it's really large. Like the beginning of the school year meets Thursday nights 919. In the beginning of the school year, you see 1,100 people or so, like a ton. Wow, a ton of people. So I got involved with that ministry whenever I was a freshman. And then my sophomore year, I decided to take steps towards leadership. So my junior year, I was leading this men's small group. So we had like 400 guys or something in small groups that we were organized and leading. And then then the following year, my senior year, I was president. So just a little bit of context of what that meant. I so I was the president of the organization, and it was when you talk about predominantly white institution or organization, this is like the definition of what predominantly is. Like I was probably of that thousand, I could have been one of 10 to 20 people of color that were really regularly coming, and that low key might be a stretch. Like that, that honestly could be a stretch. Yeah, correct, correct. Like mad white, yeah, super duper white. Um so it was it is cool though just to like think about my experiences and even trying to like reflect because I'm like, wow, I was really struggling like with that, yeah, like more than I thought that I would. And I think some of that is because I got used to the culture of assimilation. Like it's just like I was I was I was swimming in the water, like you know, and I was super used to it, and that there was parts of it that just made it, I was it was easier to be in those spaces because I was choosing to just assimilate. I was choosing to just be a part of what I was in, and I was really trying to fit in and find my place. I mean, FCA was one of those. So the thing I was getting at with leading it, the year I was president was 2020. So 2020 was a lot of different things here in America. Uh, and uh two of the things we think about the most is the pandemic and the social unrest that we were in. So I get chosen to be president in February of 2020. Everything happens, the world shuts down in March of 2020, and then we come back to school in August, and I'm trying to figure out okay, how are we gonna do this thing? First of all, you think about social distancing, all the different health components. So, like we had a thousand-person ministry, how are we even going to meet? Right. So there's just like some legitimate. Lots of leadership, legitimate leadership challenge. No, a tons. It's just like, how am I even like how am I supposed to do this? But then you you have like those things, but when you add this social unrest and this like combating against division while also trying to be clear about what I thought and what I believed and what I hoped for for the organization while I was in it. Um, and it just was really hard. So my whole team, like I had a leadership team of like 10 or so, and my whole team was white. Whole whole team was white. I was the only black person on it. And I remember the first meeting that I had with them that semester. There was a little bit of uh controversy over that summer around the names of buildings and like statues around campus, which I thought was a really good conversation. And one of the place that we used to meet at that time was uh Tillman Hall. Um, and there's a lot of a lot of history, and you can reflect and you can go see like the the type of man that he was um when he owned slaves and all these different things. So I remember my first meeting. I sit down with my team, and we used to kind of meet in our apartments or whatever, it's like 11 of us, and I was like, We we're not about to call it Tillman Hall. Like if we get to meet in there, like we're not gonna call it that. We're gonna call it old main, we're gonna call it the auditorium name.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

And had it had it changed names at this point, or was it it was in process?

SPEAKER_01 7:26

It was it was in it was I don't even remember if it was like at the point of actually getting shifted organizationally, it was more of like a social, a social component. It was like we are going to actively shift.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

So you you sat down with your your white team and you said we're not about to call it this, and how did they respond?

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Uh I don't know if they were just intimidated or uh they didn't know what to say. Like, I'm not gonna put bad as football players. Um and I was generally cool with a lot of the people. Yeah, yeah, you knew them. It wasn't like it lacked relational. Yeah, so I think having some rapport definitely helped in that regard, but I think they were all for it, even though they had um different thoughts um about it, which I wouldn't really learn until later in the school year. So I would say my my that experience was so unique given all the world circumstances that were also happening at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

But it's like that sounds like so because because anytime leadership opportun leadership is there's internal struggles, like you're leading these people, but then there's external things, things from the outside. You had a large organization, predominantly what organization you're leading, uh, so internal, but then you had all these external things too, like just the context of the world at that particular moment. I know you if I'm not am I right that you had at different times speakers come in and talk unity, justice, stuff like this? Yeah. How do people respond when you had them come in and talk about things that can feel to some like a black agenda? So you're a black man, black leader, inviting people to come in and speak on things that some I would imagine in the organization go, yo, why are we even talking about this? Right. This doesn't really have anything to do with the gospel. And also clearly you're the one to do it.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Right.

unknown 9:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Black president. Yep, yep. It's like obviously my fault why we're going in this direction. Um it would be mixed. I think there is a certain component. Honestly, I think if a person, if the person I invited to speak or we invited to speak, had a level of rapport with the organization already, it was generally received better. Like it was like, oh, like I know like this person. You're an example of one of those at that point. Like it's like people knew you like from Graduate Upstate, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Because I think I talked on politics that year.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

You did, you did when I had COVID and I wasn't there. Um, literally couldn't even get there. But um, but I would say I remember I'll give you one specific example that was real bad uh in terms of response. We had a a unity panel. This was in Black History Month, um, I'm pretty sure. And we had three three people within the organization that were POCs, um, and then one uh non-POC, a white, white gal who was in the organization as well. And then we had a black woman come who was outside of the organization. She was actually dating a guy um that was within FCA. And it was uh honestly, it was a great night. Like we we talked about our experiences um as POCs, um, and I think it was helpful to have an internal because a lot of people like knew us and wanted to hear what we had to say, but I also thought it was extremely helpful to have an external view of how people viewed a predominantly white organization um and how they felt. And I remember um the girl that we invited, I love her to death, she was having a wedding great. She ripped FCA apart low-key on stage. Like she was just like she didn't care, she didn't care at all. She didn't have any reason to be like, oh, I'm trying to like kiss up to anybody or or hide what I have in feelings. And I think I thought it was all like respectful. Um, but she was just like, there's just certain components of this thing that feels like I'm not actually welcome in this space because of not being able to assimilate into this culture. And I was down, like I was like, this is what we need, this is what folks need to hear. And then like junk kind of hit the fan after that. So people's I started getting calls and texts, and like one of the people I had to talk to through it. I remember I sat down and talked to him for like three hours at a coffee shop, really trying to explain what it meant for us to actually pursue real unity. Um, but that was a lot of what it was, and I have people still talk about that today. That night, yes, and really and in ways of just like you either really loved it or you really hated it, like it was it was wild. Um, and I think for for me, it was so important that we did that because I think unity can often be defined as uniformity. Um, we talk about that a lot. Um, and what a lot of my peers at that point in time wanted unity to look like um was more folks coming in and being uniform, folks coming in and assimilating, folks coming in with and not making a ruckus um per se. And I think that's not real unity. That that doesn't honor who we are as people, um, that doesn't grow um the majority culture and stretch them to to not just put their priorities and needs first and their desires and wants. Um, so and all that stuff just creates tension. That does. And that's what I felt. It was like, okay, there's a legitimate tension here that okay, we actually are really cool with some of these the uh we being the majority cultures like we're really cool with some of this unity push and 2020 taught us all this, and um my my white church saying black lives matter now, all these different things. It's like, oh yeah, like cool, cool, cool. But then when like the implications of those those beliefs and what it looks like to actually be united, it's like some people were like, wait, no, that's not that's a little too much. Like we we going a little bit too far. Um so yeah, that was that was crazy.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

So you I want to draw out a principle that I've I have felt a lot, and again, we're talking about POCs leaving leading in predominantly white institutions. I think white people love being led by an assimilated black man.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Like you would often pick an assimilated black man over a white person because with the assimilated person, you get you are led in light of your culture, but any kind of racial unity thing, you it's like it's an add-on. And I have seen people um even be like who are not really about that life when parents like if if it's gonna look good, yeah, yeah, yeah. To be like, oh my pastor's black. Oh, for sure. And to to be able to use that as like uh a mark of I've made it, um I'm secure, I believe in all this kind of stuff. But when it's assimilated too, it's also safe. Right. And that brings me to again, it's like I want you to be black when it's convenient. But when it's when it becomes when it when it affects me, it's too black. Yeah, and you're at you're you when it when you're when you're promoting a cause I don't like, it's too black. Right. And that has been one of the biggest challenges for me. Yeah, is because there's like the moments when it's socially acceptable to express myself and my blackness in the moments where it's not. Right. And as a leader, it you you even you can lack even more freedom because you're like, yo, I'm as a pastor, this is my flock. I love these people. I don't like these people, I love these people, I care about these people, I want to be what they need. Absolutely. But at the same time, God has God has made me an embodied being. Yeah. Like He has given me my skin color, He has given me my perspective. I am Will Plump, you know? Right. And so I can't, I can't be a white man for you. I can only be me for you. But there's times where I sense that desire. And again, you know, you you were with us in 2020, but I felt a lot of that too with pushback in that time period. But then in other moments in our church's life where we have really tried to push, there have been moments where it's like, yo, I don't really like your preaching style. You used to preach, and for me, I'm gonna speed back a lot. You've been with me. Yeah, yeah. Like my preaching style has changed a lot as I've come more into myself. Yep. And so, but people like, yo, you ain't I like how you used to, right? And I don't like how you are now. And sometimes it has also questioned like uh accuracy and authenticity to the word, right? Which I'm like, yo, I'm still up in that book. Yes, yes, I'm still studying that book. I'm still reading multiple commentaries every time before I preach, it's just a stylistic change. But if you're used to orthodoxy coming through a particular style, if it comes through a different style, sometimes you don't receive it as orthodoxy. You you don't receive it as true biblical exegesis anymore because you're used to your true biblical exegesis being through a particular cultural lens. Yep. So it's like I can't have that anymore. Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Over, I got something for that.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

So I mentioned that I was on leadership the year before I was president. I remember, you know, we all sitting around talking, we had these meetings every week or whatever. And one of uh the girl who was like the contacting the speakers, loved her, still one of my good friends today. She was reaching out to a bunch of different people. She had a passion just to bring in diverse speakers theologically, all these different stuff. It was cool. And I remember having a meeting, and one of the people in the meeting said, I don't know if we should trade like accuracy or or things that are theologically sound for diversity.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

And then he asked me, Keywon, what do you think? And at first I thought we were talking about theology, like more like differences in practices. But when he asked me directly, I was like, Are we talking about are we talking about black preachers? Like, is that we're is that what we're talking about? And I think that what you just said, how you put that is so true. Like, if it's not packaged in the same way, meaning assimilated to, meaning like uh in a tangible, uh palatable culture, it's cultural expression, then it's like this might not actually be biblical. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on. That's not true, that's not what that means at all. And I remember being so frustrated with it, just kind of being like, okay, I don't even know, and being in that assimilated, me assimilating to it, it's like I don't even know where I like where do I fall in this because it's like I'm trying to be impressive and learn who I am. I'm 20 at that point. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? But then I'm also like, I know that that's wrong. Like, I know that's a wrong thing to say. So it's so true.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

And I want to get back, I want to stay here for a little bit, but then I want to get to what it's like as like when you are a black person, a young black person in a predominantly white organization. Like a question I would have actually is can you become yourself? Because but like identity, like you are we are who we are in Christ. That's non-negotiable. We're an adopted son and daughter of the king, praise Jesus. That's this is the lens through which any other secondary identity marker we understand. Yep. So we understand our blackness in light of Jesus, whiteness, in light of Jesus, masculinity, in light of Jesus. Everything's in light of him.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

But we still are understanding these things as parts of who we are. I um so I want to get to that because I think that's a good quote, good thought. Like, can you? Yep. But one of the things that you're making me think of is like the Howard Thurman quote who was who was a mentor, uh, MLK would carry around this book by Him, Jesus, and the Disinherited. In that book, he talks about normalcy and segregation. He's talking about normalcy through the lens of segregation, and he describes the idea that hey, what is what is normal to you becomes moral, and what's moral becomes religious. So segregation at the time was normal to the cultural landscape, so it became moral, like this is ethically right. Yeah, and so not only is it then morally right than normalcy, it has it becomes religious. Yep, like this is what God wants. Right. And there is so much of church and life that we experience through a culture, but because it's through a culture, we start to ascribe it's normal to us, morality to it and religion to it. Right. So we think a style of preaching, a style of worship, a style of leadership is religious, it's what God wants, even though it's a style where I very much believe God would be very happy as long as we're teaching the word, right? You know, in theological truth about God, it can have a myriad of different styles.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

And it does all over the world. Yep. Um, it's like our Korean brothers and sisters, it's very different stylistic. Right. And so, white brother, and but but sometimes because of our space, we can only receive it in that lens. Yeah, in a lot of ways, that's tough when you're leading it as a black folk to a majority culture, like the way you might receive me might be wrong just because of who I am, right? Not because of what I think or how I'm leading or what I do. Yep. So you might receive this as wrong. And that's one of those some of the tensions in multi-ethnic space constantly is because people are ascribing morality or right and wrong to things that are really just unique cultural expressions. Yep. And then there's you know preferences. For sure. But okay. Back to back to, yeah, back to because you're a young man, just had a birthday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Big two seven. You know what you're talking about? Big two seven. 27? So very grown. Um, so you so, so, but you you are a young man who came up in predominantly white spaces and you've gone through some identity formation, things like this, yeah. Sure. But I think there's unique challenges to that as a black man in a predominantly white space. So I'm just curious, like, first off, can you, like, can a black person and you you also have had black mentors and things like that, but can't can a black person, a POC, in a predominantly white institution learn how to lead in a way young man or woman that is that is reflective of who they are if they're in surround if they're leading in a majority context that's different than them.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Yeah. Like can it even happen? Can it even happen? In my situation, no. It definitely, it definitely can. I think because and I can speak to now as we lead a predominantly white organization still, kind of the differences.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Yeah, and it's and ours is helpful. It's like it is a problem with white, but it's also now multi-ethnic. Correct. So it's not one person, you know, it's it's 25% PSC, which really does change the game. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Um But yeah, no, I was I would say generally speaking, to the 1% part, I was alone in a lot of ways. Like it it was it's really hard to really try to find yourself when there's nobody to really wrestle with those things. And there might be people that can uh that will sympathize. They'll be like that can identify with trying to find yourself and try to understand yourself, but there's nobody that will really get it. It's like they they just don't understand what it means to have grown up in a way, have uh been assimilated to a certain culture, and honestly identified, have found at times safety and security in that, given that's what I needed to do in those environments. And now it's like I'm trying to, I'm like disrupting all of that. So it's like it's like that's a hard thing to do when you ain't got really nobody to wrestle with. And that's what I'd say that experience was, and I can see. Speak to that specifically too with our with that Clemson FCA time because that first year being on leadership was what it was. And then that summer was when I came down here to do an internship at the church. And I remember how hard it was going back because I didn't realize I didn't know what I didn't know. And then all of a sudden it was like, oh wait, I do need to wrestle. And that took for me to actually try to grow into myself even that year, it took me being in constant relationship with folks that I knew that knew my experience. So to answer your question, I feel like no is probably my big answer. Uh, with uh you need the right people, like you need the right folks. And I think even the thing with our church um being what it was a few years ago to be a multi-ethnic three years ago, it's like there was a there was a cultural component of leadership and in our team, our staff team, that really were trying to grow everyone to that end. You know, it's like we are we are trying to fully express who we are in light of who Jesus has made us, and yeah, one of those things being our culture and for me being my blackness. And so it it is it is crazy. And I'd say what the things were that made us unique at that point was just having these conversations that put me in a position to be uncomfortable. Um had to check myself in a lot of ways, check my biases, check the things that I had naturally assimilated towards that I wouldn't wouldn't have even attributed to white culture, all these different things, majority culture. Um but but yeah, no, it's it's real, it's real hard to try to do that because you're trying to do all this personal work, which I know you can relate to. You're trying to you're trying to explore, you're trying to grow, you're trying to um grow more into who the Lord has made you to be, um, and who he wanted you to be, all these things, but you also still lead it, folks. Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

And and people they got expectations.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

People rightfully no for sure. It's like I'm in a position, you know. It's like I'm doing I'm doing what I was supposed to do. At that time, my my leadership role, and now it's like my job. Like it's like I'm doing the things. Um, so it's like I still have to, I still have to do these things. I still have to to put on in some ways. It's like I gotta do my job. And not a lot of people like that. It's like majority culture, it's time kind of to that tension point. Majority culture um can tense up whenever there's any type of shaking of the system that they know. Um you were mentioned, you were going into that a little bit, but I just I learned this in more of a more of a therapy counseling space, but it was like the people it's like the people that are around you like could also be the people that like they don't even realize that they are the ones that are making you like worse off. And kind of the thing that he was the that guy was quoting was just like you cannot like you cannot expect you growing in health and trying to actually be who you are to not affect the people around you in a good word in a way that's like it actually is gonna disrupt your relationship. It will like because they're used to you one way for sure, for sure. It's like it's kind of like if you're like uh in a friendship that's like real, real codependent, you super reliant on each other all the time, all the time, all the time. And then you in health are trying to figure out okay, how can I not be that way? That friend is gonna be like, wait, what's going on? Right. There's a you don't care about me anymore, you don't like me, love me anymore. Right. It's like you don't you don't think about me in the same way. It's like, wait, what? And that's the same thing with these things. It's like me trying to grow in my blackness, us trying to grow as a multi-ethnic church, us prioritizing something else that is good and that we also believe is biblical, is gonna is gonna have people feel like, wait, you don't you don't care about me anymore? Like, yeah, wait, hold on, have you given up all the things that we've we've prioritized together? All these different elements, and it's like, no, that's that's not true. But I'm trying to walk in a way that in in this context, health being my true authentic cultural self, is that's that is gonna shake some stuff up though.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

I'll tell you what, the uh some of the things I got to growing as a black man in a predominantly white uh institution, organization, church that has then become multi-ethnic, people saw it as a rejection of them. Like my embracing of black culture, they saw it as a rejection of white culture. Yeah, and I think in some ways I don't fault people. Right. Because you can't if you if you change, they're kind of going, why are you changing? Are you changing to something because you think something else is bad?

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

And sometimes you go, no, right. It's just because I've learned more who I am. And so I'm going to another state, I'm going to a different place, but it's not because I dislike this even. It's just this is more of who I am. And I think here's the truth like you're not a we're not a fixed being. Right. Like the Lord made us to grow and change and and to mature. Like that, like we all agree when it comes to spiritual growth, it's growth. We would say, yo, if you're reading the Bible the same way, praying the same way. If you haven't grown in 10 years, that's not healthy. Right. The same is true of identity formation. We actually learn more of who we are as we grow. And so, but people can receive it as a rejection of the culture. You're like, yo, you don't like this anymore because of that. Um when it's like, that's not it. It's actually not, it's not actually a rejection, it's just more of uncovering who you are. Yeah. So, no, I think that's real.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

It's very interesting thinking about that because in so many other contexts of our of our life or different lanes and avenues, it's very, very normal to be becoming, you know, it's like I am I am consistently becoming, I'm consistently evolving, growing, whatever. Right, Michelle. Um, right. No, literally. Um, and it's cool. Like it's like that's what we are. That's literally what we're doing. But when it when it hits these cultural things, uh and these cultural components and these systems and these elements, it becomes like, whoa, hold on. Like, you're that's not the way in which you're supposed to be going. Um, because what does that mean about me? Like, what does that mean about what I'm doing? And I think, especially 2020, 2021, um, that that time specifically was so much it. I'll go back to your original question of like, uh, what was it? What is can you even evolve? That's an interesting time too, because it's like I'm in a period of self-discovery, but I'm but people are also expecting me to answer questions. Like, you know what I mean? It's like like people want to people do want to learn. Some people are in really good faith and really good intentions. They're like, I want to know these things that I didn't know before. Um, trying to love me as a friend or whatever. Um, some of that being really good, some of that I'm like, just go read a book or something.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Right. Um, which is one of the unique burdens of a leader. For right. When you're when you're a PSC lead, and then probably what it's like you have the burden of you need to teach me about blackness. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

And it's like, gosh, like, oh, like that's not what it's like. Sometimes I'm just trying to be a man. I'm just trying to be, and it's like having to having to be on, like, and we're always on our journey. So it's like I'm on this journey of trying to really explore and express myself and my uh who gave God made me, and I'm also at the same time having to be the advocate or be the one that's gonna tell somebody, okay, this is what you're supposed to do, this is how you're supposed to relate. And I'm just like, that is so exhausting.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

And that's what that that's what's tough because again, it's like we want people to learn. Right. And we want people to learn about cultures that are different than them. And so if you're a person of color in a majority context, you already have that burden. Uh-huh. But then you add the title the mantle leader, it doubles. Uh-huh. Because then you have like not only is it a burden put upon you, but it is a burden we chose. Yeah. Like, I chose that. Uh-huh. So I'm I'm mad at it. Yeah. But sometimes I gotta go. I chose it. Oh, for sure. And so I'm in this position. And so, yeah, and I want us to be a multi-ethnic church. So, like, that's that's a cost I've chosen, chosen to pay. But it's it it reminds me, and you were you were on this, but I just wanna for somebody who who might be listening who who you you are uh a POC leading in a predominant organization, you need mentorship. Absolutely, and I would encourage mentorship outside of the organization. You need mentorship from people who look like you and don't look like you, but most likely you have more mentorship from people who don't look like you. So get some mentorship from some other black folk in a different context. Yeah, and that's one of the things CQ wants to do too, is consulting, coaching, things like this. Because we need it. I have I got a coach in 2020 and black black man who's pastoring a uh multi-ethnic church. Shout out Pastor Alex Shipman. And we met every other week for two years. Yeah. Then he went on sabbatical and he'd only meet with me monthly after that. So then then we met. I mean, it's been again for for six years now we're coming up on. And yo, I was tempted to quit. Yeah. Just I'm like, I believe in this, but the cost.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

And I'm I'm thankful, like one of my white brothers, uh co-pastor would always talk about yo, there's there's a extra burden, like pastoring, church planning, but then if you add multi, I think it's an extra burden. And I think you have to account for if you have a PSC leading in a predominant institution, there's an extra burden that has to be accounted for. There's an extra weight, there's an extra cost. So you have to so that's already that's there. Yep. You ain't getting around that. Right. So what what are the relationships you have to support it? And I had so many, I mean, there are times he literally the proverbial cliff, he talked me off jumping off the proverbial cliff. I mean, there's times in which I was just angry and I couldn't say I didn't I didn't have the words to say everything right. I didn't have the ability to go to the pulpit and to be able to to preach and be poised. Right. I needed a place to just go, I'm angry. I'm sad, I feel hurt. I feel like I'm trying to protect these people and they're attacking me. Right. And I could just be unfiltered. Yeah. And him talk me through it. And he's so great. I mean, he he is he's a surgeon of the soul. And so he had a way of listening and loving, yet at the same time, like going, all right, we're gonna cut into here. Yeah, we're gonna pull that out. Right. Because that's called a lie. Yep, yeah, and we ain't gonna believe that no more. We should be putting that over there, and he just he just graciously did that with me time and time again and pushed me back to my sonship in Christ. And I feel so thankful for him. But I just I really want every minority to be able to endure. Like you, you're in the position because you feel called led, right, or just maybe you got in it. Yeah. But to be able to endure, you need mentorship. You mean you need somebody who's gonna love you, care for you, support you. Because they I don't think there's a way to endure in it long term without losing yourself for sure. If you don't have mentorship, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

You cannot. This work is so unique and so, as you mentioned, burdensome that if you are isolated in it, you will not last by like it just it just won't work. Like it because if you want to do it well, like I feel like if you're doing it well, it's gonna get hard. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I agree. Like, it's like there's gonna be barriers that come up, there's gonna be situations where it's like I don't really know what to do here. And yeah, if you if you are trying to do that by yourself without having somebody, especially somebody that's older, somebody that's been through some stuff, like they got you talked about like doing surgery, it's like they got scars, yeah. You know what I'm saying? They got the experience, you know they got the scars because they can talk about it, it might be a different expression, but it's like they got it. Um, so they can see right into us, like in our position, and say, no, this is what that is. That's that's something that's deep in you as you wrestle with this, like, but that shouldn't be affecting this because you are this thing might push you away from the mission that you obviously feel called to, just like that redirection, I think, and purpose. And I I found that extremely valuable in that time, us being able to connect regularly in that season, but even now, as I work with folks alongside you, it's just a it's a different, it's a different thing to have somebody to look up to and look forward to. Like I've been thinking about uh mentorship a lot and uh like uh spiritual relationships, and it's like a there's a looking up component because it's like you've been like I'm like, oh, like you, you've been here, but like I've been rethinking it almost like a looking forward type of situation. Like it's like I'm I'm like literally like following following the steps in a way, like you know, like I'm I'm like I like that so like having somebody that's like okay, they took steps that I'm actually willing to take too. And I know I know where it got them and they might have failed, but it's like I'm going to continue because they are somebody that's worth following. Yeah. Um, so I just like that looking forward.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

I think uh I think that's big, especially in this work. The last thing I want to mention, let that's in me, if you have anything, feel free though, but is there's also a uniqueness to where I find like in the church, like I remember the last church I pastored, I was a campus pastor, and it was I don't know, 95.5, like 5% PSC, maybe, if that. But after some of the things that happened in the world, some of the shootings, yeah, like a group of black people really coming to me and just going, yo, like what do we do? Yeah, like how do we live, how do we exist? And there was an expectation, like I was there, they did not have a lot of black leaders, yeah, spiritual leaders, and so they were looking for me to as a guy. And that's one of the things I find unique too, is there is this like if you're in this organization, there's a minority of folk there, and they are also hungry to be led by a black person. Like you not that you're not their representative, but in a sense you are, and so there's there's some unique looking for like how do I? I mean, I felt that with you at times. Like, how do how do I exist as a black person? Like, am I set an example? And there are times in which I think I unhealthily carried that burden. For sure. There's times in which I was healthy in in therapy once I remember being like, yo, I just want all of our black people to feel free. I remember saying that, like, I just want our black people to feel free here. Yeah, and I had this burden because I felt like many weren't. And then I realized though, through therapy, I was like, yo, but I'm not living free. And the and I need to not just want for them what I'm unwilling to get for myself.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

And I think that's true really for every leader. Yeah. Sometimes we will want for somebody else what we're unwilling to do for ourselves. Like, I'm unwilling to do the hard work to walk in the freedom, to, to love God and to enjoy Him and to trust who I am, but I'm like wanting it so desperately for them. Yep. And I'm like, yo, the way to give it for them is just actually to like is to be Thessalonians chapter one, yeah, a model. Right. And I don't need to feel the pressure of the model. I just need to walk in my loving Jesusness and embracing the fact that he made me me. And it doesn't mean I'm better than anybody else, but I am me. Yeah. I can enjoy that. Yeah. And that was like, it was almost like a loosing of chains. Yep. And my preaching actually changed a bunch before that. But there was a moment I remember having this therapy session about that topic, not ever connecting it to preaching, and then about a month later realizing my preaching changed because of that. Yeah. I started to walk in a different level of freedom and that changed it. Yep. And and so I do think that's that's a unique burden, but it's also a really unique opportunity. It's like if we walk in freedom in a place that can be tough, I mean you set the you set the stage for the people to walk in the same freedom.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Absolutely. And yeah, it's so it's so good because all it takes is like seeing somebody in leadership really taking those steps in a way that's obviously hard or uncomfortable. And it's like, oh, it's not received by some of the people in this space, but it's like to see someone that's going to be committed to being who they authentically are and expressing themselves, that is so big. Um, I had I had one thought, yeah, um, and I'm just really thinking about myself like four years ago, four or five years ago. And I just feel like if you are a black leader, like listening to this, and you are in a predominantly white organization or institution, and you just have like questions about stuff like this, or like you just want to talk through some stuff with somebody. Like, I feel like I just been through not a ton, but I feel like these last few years have been crazy transformative for me in so many ways. And I think in some predominantly white organizations and institutions, you are it is so easy to be like shut down. You know, it's like I'm trying to grow in this, and then oh, there's questions of of humility, and there's questions of all these different components that that makes you then want to just continue to just like sh like dim that light. Like it's like I don't want to, I don't want to cause any ruckus, I don't want to make anybody uncomfortable. And I've been told that when I do this, this means this about me. I'm not trying to be that. Um, and I would just say, um, and I'm not trying to get nobody fired from their job or nothing like that, but it's like I'm just saying, hey, like you, you got there, there is an expression of yourself um that God loves and that God wants to see you step into. So just step into it.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

That's a good word. Well, uh, you know, CQ, that's kind of what we're here for. Help people grow in cultural fluency through conversations, through podcasts, through blogs and insights, yeah, and through workshops. So we're offering workshops. We've already done some, we've done one two-day workshop where we're talking theology, but we're also talking practical skills, uh, as well as helping people design the future, thinking about what does it look like for our organization to grow and not to grow in light up with cultural fluency in mind, and realizing that can actually help us reach some of our organization's goals. So follow, like, subscribe. Absolutely. It's been a good conversation. Yeah, man. I appreciate you.