CQ Podcast
The CQ Podcast helps Christians, churches, and nonprofits grow in cross-cultural competency and gospel-shaped unity. Hosted by Will Plonk, pastor and executive director of the CQ Initiative, each episode blends Scripture, practical tools, and real conversations to equip leaders to engage God’s beautifully diverse world with wisdom and hope.
CQ Podcast
Bridge Building with Charnise Mangle | Ep. 7
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In this episode of the CQ Podcast, we talk about bridge building — what it really takes to grow in cultural fluency and navigate hard conversations across differences.
From ministry to leadership, friendships to organizations, we explore why good intentions alone aren’t enough. Healthy bridge building requires humility, honesty, curiosity, and the willingness to stay in conversations that stretch us.
We discuss practical best practices, common mistakes people make when engaging across cultures, and why cultural fluency is less about performance and more about formation.
From the block to the boardroom, from the pulpit to the pew, the CQ podcast exists to help you raise your cultural authority by disgusting how culture touches everything from a Christian worldview. Just like a fish swims in water, we swim in culture.
SPEAKER_01And today we swimming with Sharney Smangle, ladies and gentlemen. Back on the podcast. I'm excited. As you know, uh Will Plunk, Executive Director of CQ Initiative, Lee Pastor Grace City Church. But Sharney Smangle is here again. And we're excited because today we're talking about bridge building. And what does it look like to uh intentionally with tools, the kind of wherewithal we need to have to be able to uh build bridges with people from different backgrounds and cultures, organizations. I think you are especially good to be on the podcast for this conversation because my girl has relationships on relationships, serves on boards like almost nobody I've ever met. So Ashari Smango, how are you feeling today before we get in?
SPEAKER_07You know, every time I'm a bit nervous every time, you know, it's uncomfortable to have a mic in front of your face and be like, we're rolling. It's live.
SPEAKER_01If we're here. And it is. We got the whole thing set up.
SPEAKER_07But I'm excited to be here and to have this conversation. You know, I do think building bridges is really important. So um, when you talked about the the topic, I'm down.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Let's go. Let's go. So um, I wanted to start off and kind of read what I think is the premier uh bridge building passage from 1 Corinthians chapter 9. Okay. This one really is it, and I think sets the stage for our conversation. Well, so this is the winsome passage, and Paul, Paul writes this. He says, Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone to win as many as possible. To the Jews, I became like a Jew to win the Jews. To those under the law, I became like one under the law, though I myself am not under the law, so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law, I became like one not having the law, though I myself am free from God's law, but am under Christ's law, so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak to win the weak, I have become all things to all people, so that by all possible means I might save some. And I like how he ends it. He says, I do all this for the sake of the gospel that I may share in its blessing. And what I like is clearly he is intentionally building bridges with Jews, with people not under the law. Historically, it's ethnic, but it's also a religious piece where he's saying, I'm willing to give up particular freedoms that I have or comforts that I have, that I might be able to come in, build a bridge with somebody else to love them for the gospel. But I like the ending because the ending he goes that I might share in the blessings of the gospel. Yeah, he's like, not only is it for you, but when I build bridges, there's some, there's a blessing that comes to me. So I love that passage. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07That's good. That's good. I like that too. That's nice. I can't I can't say it when you said what you were reading, I was like, it didn't pop into my mind naturally. But as you started to to read it, I was like, Oh, I know how this ends. Uh-huh. Yeah. To your point. Yeah, that I'm doing all this for a reason for no cause.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_07You know, there's a purpose behind it.
SPEAKER_01And I think as we were talking offline, one of the things we talked about from the jump is, and he he talks about like the idea of giving up particular freedoms to build bridges. Yeah. And so I'm curious when it comes to you and some of the like the organizations that you you've served on or just relationships, you have a very diverse spring group. Um, and so maybe talk some about that too. But what kind of freedoms or comforts or willingness to even be offended have you given up in an attempt to build bridges with other people?
SPEAKER_07A lot. Yeah, definitely. Um I think what naturally kind of comes to my mind or or pops into my mind first is just like, yeah, comfort um is like sometimes, you know, everyone wants to be comfortable. Everyone wants it to go smoothly and not have hiccups along the road, um, not have arguments or have tension. And I I think I love to say, well, we just got to hold the tension sometimes in relationships and figure out how to navigate through it. Um, and is this person worth it for you to navigate through it? And so I think the things that I've personally had to give up is um, yeah, like you said, ease being easily offended. Um, there are things that are said sometimes um while building a bridge um that you just kind of have to take on the chin. Um, and what does that look like? And how do you do that and still honor yourself and being authentic to yourself and um communicate also to the person that you're trying to build this bridge with that they have offended you and potentially offended you greatly, but you're willing to navigate again through this hurt, through this offense, um, hold the tension with them and see, you know, where can we go from here? Is it is it possible to um continue forward and to build that bridge? And um I think when we decide to do that, uh both both parties can be blessed in a lot of different ways. But I I would definitely have to say I've had to give up my own comfort and um not being easily offended, um and being willing to um speak directly to an issue. Um I think sometimes that can be really hard too, because some of the stuff you might want to say right off the cusp, you know is is gonna be like fighting fire with fire. And is that gonna be helpful? Yeah. Um, so if if you're in, if if your end goal is to to be a bridge builder, and sometimes you shooting off at the cuff about how you really what you really might think and how you really want to say it, that is gonna be a that's gonna be a lose-lose.
SPEAKER_01So that's tough, right? Because like how do you know or how have you managed, like, when are you not being authentic to yourself? Or when an attempt to build a bridge, do you feel like because here's the tension, right? Like, let's say, you know, black person in a in a majority white space at times, and to go, somebody says something. Like, is this a moment I go, I just take it on the chin? Or is this a moment I I stand up? Is this a moment like how do I navigate some of those tensions that that show up in that space? Whether it be representing black folk or even just being authentic to yourself. And I think that's one of the challenges with bid bridge building. One of the things, like we've said a lot, and I had an older pastor say this to me one time. He's like, if you build, if you're building bridges, that means you're gonna be walked on by both sides.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01It's like there's a way in which really, with regardless of the context you're coming from, you're trying to lead your people to a place maybe not everybody has been. And so you're gonna be walked on on that side. And then as you're going to the other side, like, and even I think about Paul, that he was misunderstood by the Jews as a Jewish man going to the Gentiles. Yeah. Like, and so there's this whole deal in Acts uh 15, where he's like, okay, and he's like, no, I've been with the Gentiles, I've seen what they're like, and I'm trying to report back. But there can be tensions to know, okay, am I being true? Because I think any for any person of color in particular, it's it can be challenging to go, okay, am I just being a doormat? And is this like, should I be walked on in this moment? Or is this a moment I need to stand up and say something? I'm in to build a bridge, but how do I discern or decipher through some of those tensions?
SPEAKER_07Well, yeah, I think again, it's it's it's going back to the purpose of the end of the scripture that you you read, right? It's it's what is what's the the doormat's purpose is to have is to take mud off of people's shoes, right? And that you don't want, right? So that they can walk into somewhere clean, right? Or as clean as they can be uh into that home, right? That's the purpose of a dermatore mess, right? Is to get that mud all and that stuff off my feet. But a bridge's purpose is not for really for you to be going scraping back and forth with your feet to get what's on them off. It's it's the purpose of it is to go from one place to the next, right? And then to go back potentially where from where you came. Like, you know, um, I've been to New York a lot of times and I really love the uh Brooklyn Bridge and walking across that is a very long bridge, but oftentimes I'm staying in Brooklyn. So when I walk across that, I also have to turn around and walk back. Or at some point, I got to do something to get back. And so that's that's the purpose. And so, but it connects me to another place, right? So you get off on one end, and what you know, where you started is not is not the same situation, maybe of where you're ending. Um, and then you get to bring back and show everybody, oh, this is where I went on the other side. And I'm like you're saying, reporting back. So I think I think everyone, if they're gonna be a bridge builder, has to be clear about what their purpose is and can they handle that, right? Can you handle the weight like a bridge does handle the weight of all these people walking on it at one time? And so, um, and it's gonna come with a lot of additional things that sometimes you anticipate and sometimes you don't. And so I think you just really need to be clear about that purpose. Um, and yeah, it's hard. Like, how do you know when to to to say, am I being a am I being treated as a doormat, though I'm trying to be a bridge builder? Um Can I jump in right here? Yes.
SPEAKER_01Because you you what you said something like was making me think to because you kept going on by illustration of doormat versus bridge.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And to your point, there's purpose, like in a bridge has a a different purpose. It's not just to get the mud office to go somewhere. So it made me think in building bridges, when you're building a bridge to somewhere else, if that person has no desire to walk it as well, then you don't is done. Yeah. Like if you're just saying stuff out of pocket with no desire to actually meet me where I am, no desire to actually understand my culture, no desire to be a part of a cross-cultural experience at all, well, then yeah, like we're done.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01There's there's no purpose in continuing it. So I actually don't need to just sit here and take it in the same way. Like Paul even had purpose for why he was going to the Jews and the Gentiles and not those not under the law. So to me, I was like, oh, that's actually crazy and sightful if you think about it, because it's like when they say the thing, I mean we were just talking about this, when they say the thing that's like, yeah, or you receive the offense, yes, can you graciously check them on it and are they willing to listen and learn? That was some of the things you I don't know if you're 100%.
SPEAKER_07Because if we're not even, if we're not on that same page, then why what what are we doing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07You know, so I I even think about um actually one of the one of the boards that I am on, um, there has been some kerfuffles and some feathers have what a word. Have definitely feathers have definitely been ruffled with different things that have been said um by one of the the board members. And um I think that um they are not meaning to offend um ever. Like I do not think that that is um on purpose at all, but oftentimes just how they are and how they choose to communicate and how they have regularly been able to communicate, and that has gone unchecked, um, has allowed them to say certain things in a certain tone of voice or what have you that is not being received by others. And sometimes that's not it has not even necessarily been the people us perceiving the offense have not necessarily been different from the culture of the person who is giving it necessarily. And um, but it's been interesting, and I think for me, something that as a black woman in the room who's observed this, because I have not been the by and large, most of the instances, I have not been the on the receiving end of their um of the discomfort. Um, I've just been observing it and and I see what everyone is saying, I understand why they are upset. However, what I think has always been interesting to me is that is the how offended the other people are, given that they are of the same race and of the same sex as the Oh, interesting. And um uh yeah, that's been that has been very interesting to observe for me. And I've often thought, is that because, you know, culturally, they have never had to be on the receiving end.
SPEAKER_01Ooh, of the offense. Of the offense. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And I'm constantly, as a black woman in predominantly white spaces, um, on the receiving end. And so I've had I've been forced to, out of the situations, figure out how to navigate these things and also to navigate them by keeping my composure, staying calm, and um being able to clearly articulate whatever is going on. Because if I fail to do that, then it's going to be a real issue.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Um, and so it's interesting to me sometimes watching it. I'm just like, oh, you you guys just haven't stretched that muscle. And yes, what's happening is a is an offense. However, I think you are maybe overblowing it and like you haven't figured out how to cogently come to this person and have a conversation in a way by which they're going to receive it and be willing to change.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And I feel like, you know, it one time when I was on the receiving end, I was able to speak to that person and they received it, and we have never had a problem again. But I think because I know how to navigate it and I have earned the right to be heard, I have built in a relationship with this person before the offense happened. And so when it did happen to me, I was able to speak to it in the moment and then also to circle back and speak to them again in high school. Call back to the left. I had to call them back.
SPEAKER_01I love it. That's good. So it's like you're putting deposits in. Like you're putting the deposits in before the moment ever happens. And I actually think to to build a bridge, it is like those moments of offense and being able to handle those. But to your point, it's actually having valued relationships enough to start the bid bridge building process to begin with.
SPEAKER_02Correct.
SPEAKER_01It's like you've you've logged the time to some degree with whatever people group. One of the things we say at CQ a lot is cultural humility. Yes. Like, are we aware of kind of in some ways our cultural background, but the limitations of it? Like just because we're humans and we're both humans, doesn't mean I understand your culture, your background, your personality like that. So I need to have humility to take some time and learn you.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01To understand you, where you're coming from. Because you might say something, and if I know more about your background, it actually would even change the way I receive the offense that you might be saying it. Like I have some friends who say some out-of-pocket stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01But because I know them like that, I know in some ways, not that we don't need to have conversations, but like that's who you are. Yes. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like that's who you are. And so, like, let's talk about it. And I actually know because I know more about you, that you you actually do love people differently than you really will.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01And and I actually know places of your life where you've paid the cost to build bridges. Yes. Whereas other people, it's like, not so much. I don't know you. So in some ways it's easier for me to be offended. But I am curious, one of the things you said too is like building that tolerance for offense that you have that you feel like some people maybe from other contexts who haven't experienced the same offense have. And I think that's a big thing with bridge building, right? It's like you have a tolerance to be walked on to some degree. Um but like that's cost you, yeah. Oh, yeah. To like build that tolerance.
SPEAKER_07Oh, to build it? Oh, a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like cost you personally.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, when we when when you said earlier um about just in the scripture, it almost sounds like he's being a chameleon. Like, I think that people could read that and be like, Do you know who you are? Or are you just trying to be like other people? Like, what's really going on here? And I think, you know, early on, I didn't know myself as well as I know myself today, right? You know, when I sit here right now, I'm older, I'm wiser, I've had more experiences, right? And so I can speak to you today, and I can walk in my truth and with clarity and authenticity and truth of who I am in a way that I haven't always been able to, you know. Um, I've always been a confident person, but I think maybe, you know, 15 years ago or in college or in high school, even post-grad, um there were times where I wasn't really sure and I I wouldn't have had the the language to speak directly to something, but I knew how it made me feel and I know what I wanted to achieve, but I wasn't necessarily able to because I didn't really know who I was. So I think it's really important for A, you to know deeply who you are. That's good. Um, so that when things happen, you can um instead of being offended and not really knowing, okay, how do I move forward? You you know this is why this offended me. This is where it hurt me, and this is how I'm going to be able to move forward because I clearly, I can so clearly see it all. Like, I don't, I I really am trying, I'm struggling to find the like words that I really want to say. But like when I think about, I guess, an example, um, what comes to mind is just like my collegiate experience. Like the way that I went through my collegiate experience at Clemson University, a predominantly white um university as a black woman, and the way that I moved through my professional career as a teacher in predominantly white um teaching environments at both of the schools that I've taught in, um, they're very different. And it's because when I was in college, I was figuring out who Sharnice was. And as a um worker in these schools, I know who Sharnice is. And even though, yeah, I'm still learning, I'm still changing every day, but I have a clear sense of um who I am and like why I'm there and and what my purpose is at the workhouse, right? And so when something happens, I'm able to clearly speak to it and be very unapologetic about it. Um, and that's that's very helpful. But yes, early on, yeah, you you getting knocked in the mouth and you you trying to figure out where up is and and trying to figure out um, is there anyone around to really help me?
SPEAKER_01She said she'd throw hands, ladies and gentlemen, in case you, in case you're wondering. Um no, that's really good. Like, I think that self-awareness, I've heard it said unprocessed trauma is easily triggered. And it is also probably true of our background, like when we are not aware of ourselves, like have a godly confidence, not a hubrist that's overly inflated, but one that goes, I know and I you know I caught it whose I am. Like I know who that I'm the Lord's, I know who he's made me to be. So now I can when I'm offended, it actually doesn't offend to the same degree. Or when I call you out, yes, it's not at a place of insecurity.
SPEAKER_02Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Because sometimes that's I think what it's birthed in is like sometimes you're like, you know, you try to build a bridge. So you go, I'm gonna, I'm gonna actually, this is the moment I'm gonna correct you. And you can say it in a balanced way, like, hey, are you are you open? Like, can I give you some feedback? Yes. And then you enter into that conversation. And to your point, it's not just like you know what I'm saying? Yes. It's not just I'm gonna throw, I'm, I'm just so angered, yes, or I'm so triggered that I'm just kind of bursting forth. Yeah, well, it's and and again, sometimes it's like rightfully so. Maybe something has been deeply offensive or someone did something very outhandish and it was very hurtful and it needs to be processed and it needs to be dealt with. But I do think the more growth we like as a bridge builder to focus on like I also have to grow myself to be able to do this work. It can't just be about helping them, it actually has to be about becoming more mature. A hundred percent.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Because it it comes out of like again, back to the scripture, the purpose of why he was even saying it, doing any of these things. He went and became like and knew how to conduct himself in these different instances with these different types of people because I'm here because of my father. Yeah. Right. And so when I want to be enraged or I want to be upset um and really respond out of that, I have to first check myself and say, is this, is this what God would want? Is this what Jesus would want from me? Is this why he's sending me here? And when you when you ask yourself that, the answer is 100% gonna be a no. And so then you gotta just settle and you gotta understand that you're having a human emotion, and that's okay. First of all, you can't blame it away, like try to blame it away or say that, you know, oh, I can't feel these feelings like I really, really do not like when Christians try to be like you can't you can't have feelings, you can't have emotions. No, you can have feelings, you can definitely have emotions. You just have to put them in their proper place and you have to work through the feelings of them and you and And and do your best to not allow them to overtake you when you're trying to be productive if you want to, because they're not going to be as productive if that's you're just going to speak out of the emotion that you're currently having.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. No, that that's complete. Again, I think that's great. And definitely a huge part of bridge building is that that self-awareness, identifying emotion, but not being driven by emotion. Like emotions are biblical. Um, read the songs. Yeah. But but but I think that to not always be driven by them and to not be unaware of what emotion is driving you. Yeah. One of the things too, just in bridge building, I think oftentimes for POC, uh for people of color, it is more likely people of color have experience with majority culture because we're in America. So like most black people and people of color have experience with white culture. But it's less common for uh employee white people do have experience with different co different cultures of color, but it is often very likely for them to not. And so I think that's one of the reasons why the offense can feel disproportionate. And I think people don't sometimes like sometimes with race conversations, people want everything to be equal. You know, and I think it's almost a product of we feel like civil rights, civil rights movement has happened, things are more just than they used to be. So it's like things should be equal. Like if you can be racist, I can be racist, that kind of stuff, right? But with offense, it can be that way too. Like, oh well, like I'm gonna be offended as a white person. But I also go, well, think about the context we're in. Like it's more likely the white people have less context with black people. And so that's why the it's more likely for a black person or a person of color to be offended and the white person to be offending. Now it can go both ways, but I'm talking about all cultural matters.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01But one of the things I was thinking on is that I think if you're a white person listening, to build a bridge, you actually, and this this might sound bad, but you have to be okay with offending.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01And there's not a license to go to be like, yeah, you can offend people. That's not what I'm saying. No, I just mean to grow, you have to be able to put yourself in context where you will misstep and know that's gonna be okay. Like to your point, you've existed in a lot of white spaces and you've built endurance. And I think, I mean, I've felt when white people missed up with me and apologized and work through stuff, I'm like, oh, cool. Like so often, I'm like, oh not a big deal. Like so much of the time for me, I'm like, okay, cool, yeah. Like it ain't nothing. Sometimes it's something, but a lot of times it's like, no, like whatever. It's like um and it's like, but sometimes I can see it like I have seen a white person like crumble before me because they feel like they say something that's slightly racist or offensive to me. Just they put and I'm like, but then what can happen? What can happen is then the black person, you know what I'm gonna say, can feel like I need to make you feel better.
SPEAKER_05Oh. Now you be yeah, you see what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Oh, and so then it kind of ends up being this whole cycle and all that.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, and that's not I that's not gonna that's not gonna be good. That's not gonna end well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Um, I think of it as like failure, you know, being okay with failure. Yeah. And uh you have to you have to fail, you have to fall down um so that you can get back up again. Um, and so yeah, definitely I think that um a white person definitely has to be okay with with failing as they attempt to move closer in in relationship and be a bridge and and relationship on different levels. It could be a coworker relationship, it can be a friendship relationship that's you know, outer circle, it could be friendship inner circle, it could be church, you know, like there are a myriad of relationships that we have with people, and in that we are, yeah, the offense is oftentimes going to happen more so at the hands of the white person because they have not lived the experiences or had to live in a counterway, by and large, right? They haven't lived in predominantly um black spaces or Asian spaces or Hispanic spaces spaces where they've had to figure it out and navigate it, right? And also when you think about people who have lived are white and have lived in those spaces, they did navigate those and they probably failed a lot, but they failed early on as children. Right. And then they grew up and then they they knew how to navigate themselves and comport themselves with that particular cultural group.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_07That's the same thing that has happened for a lot of as for myself. I can only really speak for me, as a black woman who has lived in predominantly white spaces, both growing up in the suburbs, the high schools, the colleges, the workplace that I've been in, all predominantly white spaces. And so I know how to comport myself around predominantly white culture because I have been experiencing this all this time. And so um, yeah, it's gonna, it's gonna offend, especially when you're trying to grow relationships. Um, and that's it is okay. It's like, yeah, it's like I don't want to say it's okay and give people like a license, like you were saying, to offend, but I'm just gonna say it's just gonna happen. And what you have to be more concerned about instead of being right or not failing is just knowing that it's going to happen and how am I going to respond when it happens.
SPEAKER_00That's good.
SPEAKER_07How am I going to pick myself up, right? And not require or ask that the person of color pick me up and console me. Yeah. Right. How am I going to work towards reconciliation and how am I going to ask the Lord to guide me on that journey? Um, instead of asking that the person that I have offended guide me on some journey.
SPEAKER_01And it's like when there is this, if you fall apart at offending somebody else, in some ways you want to ask, why does it affect me so deeply? Like, do I have an image of myself that like I'm this perfect bridge builder that never offends, or I'm the most woke person in this situation or whatever, right? Like where I'm never going to make a mistake. Because sometimes if you we struggle with perfectionism, and that's just might be just VR, right? Like you struggle with perfectionism. But sometimes it's you have this image of yourself, and then when you fail in the racial conversation, you just you fall apart. Like, I mean, I pastor in multi-ethnic church do this work, and like I literally have failed plenty of times.
SPEAKER_03Reality.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like I mean, I have I I I have receipts of times people like, hey, listen, this this was offensive to me. And like you did, you did not mention you did not mention us at all at this table. Like, were you considering us? And you know, I have had my reasons, but at the same time, I'm like, yo, I'm sorry. Like I I wasn't, and we made a mistake. And I feel that way as a church. Like I have a lot of failures on the journey of of learning, you know. Um, because I think it's it's tough work.
SPEAKER_05Oh, 100%.
SPEAKER_01And I think maybe last thing to to talk through is just there are some differences culturally, and I think it's just important to understand whatever bridge whatever context you want to build a bridge in, like come with a level of humility and come as a learner.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01It's like if I enter into a place, this is really anywhere, do I just assume I understand it to its 100%? Or am I coming in to go, let me understand this family dynamic? Like, do I understand how this family network works? Do I understand how this cultural group works, this church work, this board works? Do I understand these kind of things? And if I come in as a learner, it gives me a space to build a bridge in a way where like I'm actually hitting the point where the bridge needs to go. Rather than like kind of building over adjacent and the whole thing is a crumbling, because I've been building this way and the bridge really needs to be built that way. So I think that that level of humility as a learner is like an important aspect of the bridge.
SPEAKER_07100%. Humility will take you a long, a long way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Uh, and I think that it has to be learned though, like because I feel like naturally the human condition, um, we want to be proud and we want to be boastful about what we can do and not be so teachable all the time. It's our natural inclination.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Um, and sometimes we have to fight against that, right? Especially when you're very known and known well for something that you do, be it your job or your hobby or whatever it is that you do and you do it well. So it's like I have to now uh admit and face that I don't do something very well, and I have to be a learner and I have to be teachable, and I have to be teachable potentially by a group of people that I haven't necessarily always value or honored. And oh what, and then to have to realize when you start to do that, that what's the root cause work and start digging into that hole and seeing what's really going on, and start to face some of the beliefs or narratives that you have held in your head about a cultural group that now is correcting you, and you've never been corrected by this particular cultural group. That's something.
SPEAKER_01That's tough, man.
SPEAKER_07That's come that's a tough, that's now you're learning your levels of this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And that's that can be painful and hard. But again, you have to check yourself and say, how am I going to respond to this? And where am I going to get my strength from? Because clearly you don't have you don't have the strength just to continue on. And so am I going to ask the Lord to again, you it's invitational. All this stuff is very invitational. It's like, am I going to um invite the Lord in on this journey? And also, if I've offended someone or I'm haven't even offended someone, I'm just building a bridge and I know that I might in the future offend someone. Am I still going to ask this person to come with me and to and to join me on really what is my own life's work? Right. Um, it's not work that they need to do, but in order for me to do the work, I need you to partner with me. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01I do. So yeah. And I love what you're saying too. It's like bridge building is hard, but and we need strength to do it. And so it's like you're gonna burn out in this game unless you get strength. So to your point, like being able to call on a board, have community, have some people who you feel like they can just work too, I think is what allows us to endure in bridge building work. But is it worth it?
SPEAKER_07It's 100% worth it.
SPEAKER_01It's 100% worth it.
SPEAKER_07Now we'll have to say though, you can't, every everyone is not cut out for this. You're right, and that's okay. I want to be very clear about that. Is that I always tell people, you could you could have fumbled the ball with me, and I'm glad you did that with me. But there are there are some black women, I just speak again for myself, that I know some of my sisters, and they would have been like, you there was no coming back from that. Yeah, you know, yeah, and I and I also oftentimes when I'm helping someone, I'm like, listen, fumble with me as much as you can. You know?
SPEAKER_01No, that's good because it's like even having that level of honest conversation. And I think too, to your point, which you said earlier of like uh putting deposits in, like having you already had the relationship with the guy, like to go if you want to build a bridge to another culture, probably one of the first steps is you have a relationship with somebody from that cultural group or from that organization board, whatever, and are you like putting the time in in such a way where they can say say something like, Hey, you can actually feel with me, this is a safe place.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_01And that's really kind of what we all need.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Because then you can kind of you can go and be like, because you you're have a relationship with a cultural insider. Basically, they're on the other side of the bridge where you're trying to go and you're like, Hey, listen, what do you think about this? Yes. I said this over here to Gami like that. Yeah, that was crazy. Well, I don't know. That was kind of interesting they respond to that. You know, like you you can even do some of that. And with the right relationships, it's like, yeah, of course, this is what we're doing.
SPEAKER_07Exactly. And also when you're building that relational equity, it's often about something that is not even related to the hard thing. Like my relationship with this person is is uh regarding music. So it's it's like our our enjoying of similar musical composition is our connection, and it has nothing to do with the hard thing that we do over here. Yeah. And so I think don't take for granted, and this is why I always tell people, you know, find a hobby. Yeah. Be interesting beyond the work that you do. That's great. Because it's oftentimes the hobbies that you have, and I'm trying to be a collector of all the hobbies, as many hobbies as possible, because that's my on-ramp oftentimes to building relationships. People often ask me, oh, how do you have such a diverse coalition of people that you call friend or associate or, you know, around you or at work? And it's because I do so many different things for Sharnice. You know, I take care of me, you know, and I think sometimes we neglect the personal work that we need to be doing, the personal work we need to be spending with the father. And it's only through the overflow of that personal work that I am able to have the strength to do what I do out in the world and um out in the world connecting with people as well, the personal work that is not necessarily the reading scripture and praying relationship with the father, but connecting with him and his creation and the people that he's created, but also in the things that he has created through the people for us to enjoy, right? The I love biking, you know, I love writing letters, I love reading. Um, and and really also sometimes thinking about the fact that you might not love whatever thing it is, but because someone else loves it, right? You're gonna try your best to figure out what intersectionality can I have with this thing. I do not like anime. I'm just gonna be honest with you.
SPEAKER_01And I'm offended.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, you know, and my brother here, he loves it, right? Um, and so many people in my life, they love anime, they love Korean things, like Korean pop culture is having a moment in America in a real way. And so many people that I love love it. And it's not my thing necessarily, but I'm always trying to figure out okay, where's their overlap and where can I jump in and have, you know, a point of connection because I know that one day that's gonna come back around.
SPEAKER_01That's good. I think I love what you said. You said two things, and I think it's a good way to end like your personal health, being like your relationship with the Lord, but also hobbies. Like you need to be strong personally to be able to have energy to do this work. But then in that, realizing those are great opportunities to connect with people from different backgrounds, and we even when you have a little bit of that, ain't quite my thing. What does it look like for me to look for the the connection point to say, Oh, I can I can rock with you on that and almost appreciate what they appreciate. Yes, because I think that in some ways there's a little bit of love in that of just I I can like it, get with it, understand it to some degree because you love it, and it's really because I love you.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01And so because of that, that creates this again compassion, but also strength to build a bridge on something that you might not even naturally rock with. But hey, it's been a good conversation. Love it. Appreciate it. Thanks for jumping on the pause, Sharice.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, glad to be here. Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_05I don't know something with the uh cell phone. Because it feels so serious and real. I don't know. That's like now we got here.
SPEAKER_01Say it something about it too one more time.
SPEAKER_05It's reporting right now. It is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's popping up.
SPEAKER_05And it's popping up right there. It's like, oh, give me a good pop. There you go. Pop, pop, pop, pop. Is it popping for me too? It's popping for you too. All right, man. Because it's do pop.
SPEAKER_01So we'll do like a little introduction and stuff like that too. Sounds like a point. Sounds like a point. We'll have a good old conversation.
SPEAKER_05Is it all shizzy chat?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Okay. And today we're swimming with Sharney Smangle, ladies and gentlemen. Back on the podcast. I'm excited. As you know, uh Will Planck, Executive Director of CQ Initiative, we passed the Great City Church. But Charnie Smangle is here again. And uh we're excited because today we're talking about bridge building and what does it look like to uh intentionally with tools, the kind of wherewithal we need to have to be able to uh build bridges with people from different backgrounds and cultures, organizations. I think you are especially good to be on the podcast for this conversation because my girl has relationships on relationships, search on boards, like almost nobody I've ever met. So Tony Spangle, how are you feeling today before we get in?
SPEAKER_07You know, every time I'm a bit nervous every time, you know, it's uncomfortable to have a mic in front of your face and be like, we're rolling. It's live.
SPEAKER_02We're here. And it is. You got the whole thing set up.
SPEAKER_07But I'm excited to be here and to have this conversation. You know, I do think building bridges is really important. So uh you talked about the the topic.
SPEAKER_01Um, let's go, let's go. So um, I wanted to start off and kind of read what I think is the premier uh bridge building passage from 1 Corinthians chapter 9. Okay. This one really is it, and I think sets the stage for our conversation. Well, so this is the winsome passage, and Paul Paul writes this. He says, Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone to win as many as possible. To the Jews, I became like a Jew to win the Jews. To those under the law, I became like one under the law, though I myself am not under the law, so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law, I became like one not having the law, though I myself am free from God's law, but I'm under Christ's law, so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak to when the weak I have become all things to all people, so that by all possible means I might save some. I like how he ends it. He says, I do all this for the sake of the gospel that I'm exhibiting this blessing. And what I like is clearly he is intentionally building bridges with Jews, with people don't know the law. Historically, it's ethnic, but it's also a religious piece where he's saying, I'm willing to give up particular freedoms that I have or comforts that I have, that I might be able to come in, build a bridge with somebody else to love them for the gospel. But I like the ending because the ending he goes that I might share in a bridge blessing is the gospel. Yeah, he's like, not only is it for you, but when I build bridges, there's some there's a blessing that comes to me. So I love that passage.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. That's good. That's good.
SPEAKER_07I like that too.
SPEAKER_05That's nice.
SPEAKER_07I can't I can't say it when you said what you were reading, I was like, we didn't pop into my mind actually. But as you started to to read it, I was like, oh, I know I was in. So to your point, yeah, but I'm doing all this for a reason, not for no cause. Right. You know, there's a purpose behind it.
SPEAKER_01And I think as we were talking offline, one of the things we talked about from the jump is, and he he talks about like the idea of giving up particular freedoms to build bridges. Yeah. And so I'm curious when it comes to you and some of the like the organizations that you you've served on, or just relationships, you're a very diverse frame group. Um, and so maybe talk some about that too. But what kind of freedoms or comforts or or willingness to even be offended have you given up in an attempt to build bridges with other people?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, definitely. Um I think what naturally kind of comes to my mind or or pops it in my mind first is just like, yeah, comfort um is like sometimes, you know, everyone wants to be comfortable. Everyone wants it to go smoothly and not have hiccups, you know, along the road, um, not have arguments or have tension. And I think I love to say, well, we just gotta hold the tension sometimes in relationships and figure out how to navigate through it. Um, and is this person worth it for you to navigate through it? And so I think the things that I've personally had to give up is um, yeah, like you said, being easily offended. Um, there are things that are said sometimes while building a bridge that you just kind of have to take on the chin. Um, and what does that look like? And how can you do that and still honor yourself and being authentic to yourself and um communicate also to the person that you're trying to build this bridge with that they have offended you and potentially offended you greatly, but you're willing to navigate again through this hurt, through this offense, uh, hold the tension with them and see, you know, where can we go from here? Is it is it possible to uh continue forward and to build that bridge? And um I think when we decide to do that, uh both both parties can be blessed in a lot of different ways. But I I would definitely have to say I've had to give up my own comfort and um not being easily offended. Um and being willing to um speak directly to an issue. Um I think sometimes that can be really hard too, because some of the stuff you might want to say right off the cusp, you know, is it's gonna be like fighting fire with fiber. And is that gonna be helpful? Yeah. Um, so if if you're in, if if your end goal is to to be a bridge builder, and sometimes you're shooting off at the cuff about how you really what you really might think and how you really want to say it, that is gonna be a that's gonna be a lose-loose.
SPEAKER_01So that's tough, right? Because like how do you know or how have you managed, like, when are you not being authentic to yourself? Or when attempt to build a bridge, do you feel like because here's the tension, right? Like, let's say, you know, black person in a in a majority white space at times, and to go, if somebody says something, like, is this the moment I go, I just take it on the chin, or is it the moment I I stand up? Is this a moment like how do I navigate some of those tensions that that show up in that space? Whether it be representing black folk or even just being authentic to yourself. And I think that's one of the challenges of bridge building. One of the things, like we said a lot, and I had a order pastor say this to me one time. He's like, if you build, if you're building bridges, that means you're gonna be walked on by both sides.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01It's like there's a way in which really, with regardless of the context you're coming from, you're trying to lead your people to a place maybe not everybody has been. And so you're gonna be walked on that side. And then if you're going to the other side, like and even I think about Paul, he was misunderstood by the Jews. Yes. As a Jewish man walked to the Gentiles. Yeah, yeah. Like it's this whole deal in Acts uh 15, where he's like, okay, he's like, no, I've been with the Gentiles, I've seen what they're like, I'm trying to report back. But there can be tensions to know, okay, am I being true? Because I think any for any person of color in particular, it's it can be challenging to go, okay, am I just being a doorback? And is this like, should I be walked on in this moment? Or is this the moment I need to stand up and say something? I'm in to build a bridge, but how do I discern a cipher to some of those tensions?
SPEAKER_07Well, yeah, I think again, it's it's it's going back to the purpose of the end of the scripture that you you read, right? It's it's what is what's the the doormat's purpose is to have is to take mud off of people's shoes, right? And that you don't want, right? So they can walk into somewhere clean, right? Or as clean as they can be uh into that home, right? That's the purpose of a doormat, right? To get the mud off and that stuff off my feet. But a bridge's purpose is not for really for you to be going scraping back and forth with your feet to get what's on them off. It's it's the purpose of it is to go from one place to the next, right? And then to go back potentially where from where you came. Like, you know, um I've been to New York a lot of times and I really love the uh Brooklyn Bridge and walking across that's a very long bridge, but oftentimes I'm staying in Brooklyn, so when I walk across it, I also have to turn around and walk back because at some point I got to do something to get back. And so that's that's the purpose. And so, but it connects me to another place, right? So you get off on one end, and what you know, where you started is not is not the same situation, maybe of where you're ending. Um, and then you get to bring back to show everybody, oh, this is where I went on the other side, and I'm like you're saying, reporting back. I think I think everyone, if they're gonna be a bridge builder, has to be clear about what their purpose is and can they handle that, right? Can you handle the weight like a bridge does handle the weight of all these people walking on it at one time? And so, um, and it's gonna come with a lot of additional things that sometimes you anticipate and sometimes you don't. And so I think you just really need to be clear about that purpose. Um, and yeah, it's hard. Like, how do you know when to say, am I being uh am I being treated as a doormat, though I'm trying to be a bridge builder?
SPEAKER_01Um right here. Yes. Because you you well, you said something like was making me think to because you kept on my illustration of doormat versus bridge. Yeah. And to your point, there's purpose. Like a bridge has a different purpose. It's not just to get the butt office to go somewhere. So it made me think in building bridges when you're building a bridge to somewhere else. If that person has no desire to walk it as well, then you don't that's done. Yeah. Like if you're just saying stuff out of pocket with no desire to actually meet me where I am, no desire to actually understand my culture, no desire to be a part of a cross-cultural experience at all. Well, then yeah, like we're done.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01There's no purpose in continuing it. So I actually don't need to just sit here and take it in the same way. Like I don't even have purpose for why he was going to choose and gentiles about those evolved. So to me, I was like, oh, that's actually crazy insightful. Think about it, because it's like when they say the thing, I mean, we were just talking about this. When they say the thing that's like or you receive the offense, yes, can you graciously check upon it? And are they willing to listen and buy them? Those are some of the things you 100%.
SPEAKER_07Because if we're not even, if we're not on that same page, then why what what are we doing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07You know, so I I even think about um actually one of the one of the boards that I am on, um, there has been some kerfuffles and some feathers stuff that happened. I've definitely feathers have definitely been ruffle with different things that have been said um by one of the board members. And um I think that um they are not meaning to offend um ever. Like I do not think that that is um on purpose at all, but oftentimes just how they are and how they choose to communicate and how they have regularly been able to communicate, and that has gone unchecked, um, has allowed them to say certain things in a certain tone of voice or what have you that is not being received by others. And sometimes that's not even, it has not even necessarily been the people us perceiving their offense have not necessarily been different from the culture of the person who is giving it necessarily, actually. And um, but it's been interesting, and I think for me, something that as a black woman in the room who's observed this, because I have not been the by and large, most of the instances, I have not been the on the receiving end of their um of the discomfort. Um, I've just been observing it. And I see what everyone is saying, I understand why they're upset. However, what I think has always been interesting to me is that is the how offended the other people are, given that they are of the same race and of the same sex as those. And um uh yeah, that's been that has been very interesting to observe for me. And I've often thought, is that because you know, culturally, they have never had to be on the receiving end of the offense. Of the offense. Yeah. And I'm constantly, as a black woman in predominantly white spaces, um, on the receiving end. And so I had been forced to out of the situations figure out how to navigate these things and also to navigate them by keeping my composure, staying calm, and um being able to clearly articulate whatever is going on. Because if I fail to do that, then it's going to be a real issue.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Um, and so it's interesting to me sometimes watching it. I'm just like, oh, you guys just haven't stretched that muscle. And yes, what's happening is an offense. However, I think you are maybe overblowing it and like you haven't figured out how to cogently come to this person and have a conversation in a way by which they're gonna receive it and be willing to change. And I feel like, you know, it one time when I was on the receiving end, I was able to speak to that person and they received it, and we have never had a problem again. But I think because I know how to navigate it and I have earned the right to be heard, I have built in a relationship with this person before the offense happened. And so when it did happen to me, I was able to speak to it in the moment and then also to circle back and speak to them again about I had to call them back.
SPEAKER_01I love it. That's good. So it's like you're putting deposits in. Like you're putting the deposits in before the moment ever happens. And I actually think that to to build a bridge, it is like those moments of offense and being able to handle those. But to your point, it's actually having valued relationships enough to start the bridge building process to begin with. Correct. It's like you've you've logged the time to some degree with whatever people group. One of the things we say is to cue a lot is cultural humility.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Like, are we aware of kind of in some ways our cultural background, but the limitations of it? Like, just because we're humans and we're both humans doesn't mean I understand your culture, your background, your personality like that. So I need to have humility to take some time and learn you. Yeah. To understand you, where are you coming from? Because you might say something, and if I know more about your background, it actually would even change the way I receive the offense that you might be saying it. Like I have some friends who say some out-of-pocket stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01But because I know them like that, I know in some ways, not that we don't need to have conversations, but like that's who you are. Yes. Yeah. Like that's who you are. And so, like, let's talk about it. And I actually know because I know more about you, that you you actually do love people differently than you really well.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01And and I actually know places of your life where you pay the cost to build bridges.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Whereas other people, it's like not so much. I don't know you. So in some ways it's easier for me to be offended. But I am curious, one of the things you said too is like building that tolerance for offense that you have that you feel like some people maybe from other contexts who haven't experienced the same offense have. And I think that's a big thing with bridge building, right? It's like you have a tolerance to be bought bumps and movie. Um, but like that's cost you, yeah. Oh, yeah, to like build that tolerance. Oh, to build it, oh, 100%. Yeah, like cost you personally.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, when we when when you said earlier um about just in the scripture, it almost sounds like he's being a chameleon. Like I think that people could read that and be like, Do you know who you are? Or are you just trying to be like other people? Like, what's really going on here? And I think, you know, early on, I didn't know myself as well as I know myself today, right? You know, when I sit here right now, I'm older, I'm wiser, I've had more experiences, right? And so I can speak to you today, and I can walk in my truth and with clarity and authenticity and truth of who I am in a way that I haven't always been able to, you know. Um, I've always been a confident person, but I think maybe, you know, 15 years ago or in college or in high school, even post-grad, um, there were times where I wasn't really sure and I wouldn't have had the language to speak directly to something, but I know how it made me feel. And I know what I wanted to achieve, but I wasn't necessarily able to because I didn't really know who I was. So I think it's really important for A, you didn't know deeply who you are.
SPEAKER_04That's good.
SPEAKER_07Um, so that when things happen, you can um instead of being offended and not really knowing, okay, how do I move forward? You you know this is why this offended me, this is where it hurt me, and this is how I'm going to be able to move forward because I clearly I can so clearly see it all. Like, I don't, I really am trying, I'm struggling to find the like words that I really want to say, but like. Like when I think about, I guess, an example, what comes to mind is just like my collegiate experience. Like the way that I went through my collegiate experience at Clemson University, a predominantly white university as a Black woman, and the way that I moved through my professional career as a teacher in predominantly white teaching environments at both of the schools that I've taught in, they're very different. And it's because when I was in college, I was figuring out who Sharice was. And as a um worker in these schools, I'm I know who Sharice is. And even though, yeah, I'm still learning, I'm still changing every day, but I have a clear sense of um who I am and like why I'm there and what my purpose is at the workhouse, right? And so when something happens, I'm able to clearly speak to it and be very unapologetic about it. Um, and that's that's very helpful. But yes, early on, yeah, you you get knocked in the mouth and you you trying to figure out where up is and and trying to figure out um, is there anyone around to really help me?
SPEAKER_01She said she'd throw hands, ladies and gentlemen. Um no, that's really good. Like I think that self-awareness, I've heard it said unprocessed trauma is easily triggered. And it is also probably true of our background, like we are not aware of ourselves, like have a godly confidence, not a hubris that's overly inflated, but one that goes I know I'm and I you know I thought of whose I am. Like I know who that I'm the Lord's, I know who he's made me to be. So now I can when I'm offended, it actually doesn't offend to the same degree. Or when I call you out, yes, it's not at a place of insecurity.
SPEAKER_02Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Because sometimes that's I think what is birthed in is like sometimes you're like, you know, you try to build a bridge. So you go, I'm gonna, I'm gonna actually, this is the moment I'm gonna threaten you. And you can say it in a balanced way, like, hey, are you are you open? Like, can I give you some feedback?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01And then you enter into that conversation. And to your point, it's not just like yeah, you know what I'm saying? Yes. It's not just I'm gonna throw, I'm I'm just so angered, yes, or I'm so triggered that I'm just kind of bursting forth. Well, it's and and again, sometimes it's like rightfully so. Maybe something has been deeply offensive or someone did something very outlandish and it was very hurtful and it needs to be processed and it needs to be dealt with. But I do think the more growth we like as a bridge builder, just focus on like I also have to grow myself to be able to do this work. It can't just be about helping men, but actually has to be about becoming home eternal. 100%, yeah.
SPEAKER_07Because it it comes out of like man, back to the scripture, the purpose of why he was even saying doing any of these things. He went and became like and knew how to conduct himself in these different instances with these different types of people because I'm here because of my father. Yeah, right. And so when I want to be enraged or I want to be upset and really respond out of that, I have to first check myself and say, is this is this what God would want? Is this what Jesus would want from me? Is this why he's sending me here? And when you when you ask yourself that, the answer is 100% gonna be a no. And so then you gotta just settle and you gotta understand that you're having a human emotion, and that's okay. First of all, you can't blame it a like try to blame it away or say that, you know, I can't feel these feelings. I really, really do not like when Christians try to be like you can't you can't have feelings, you can't have emotions. No, you can't have feelings, you can definitely have emotions. You just have to put them in their proper place and you have to work through the feelings of them and and and do your best to not allow them to overtake you when you're trying to be productive if if you want to, because they're not going to be as productive if that's you're just gonna speak out of the emotion that you're currently having.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, that that's that again. I think that's great, and definitely each part of breech building is that that self-awareness identifying emotion, but not being driven by emotion. Like emotion is um reading the songs, yeah. But but but I think that to not always be driven by it and to not be unaware of what emotion is driving you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01One of the things to just say breach building, I think oftentimes for POC, uh for people of color, it is more likely people of color have experience with majority culture because we're in America. And so, like most black people and people of color have experience with white culture, but it's less common for uh, and probably white people do have experience with different different cultures of color, but it is often very likely for them to not. And so I think that's one of the reasons why the offense can feel disproportionate. And I think people don't sometimes, like sometimes with race conversations, people want everything to be equal. You know, and I think it's almost a product of we feel like civil rights, civil rights movement has happened, things are more just than they used to be. So it's like things should be equal. Like if you can be racist, I can be all this kind of stuff, right? But with offense, it can be that way too. Like, oh, well, like I'm gonna be offended as a white person, but I'm black. But I also go think about the context within. Like it's more likely the white people have less contact with black people. And so that's why the it's more likely for a black person or a person of color to be offended and the white person to offending. Now it can go both ways, but I'm talking about all cultural matters.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01But one of the things I was thinking on is that I think if you're a white person listening to build a bridge, you actually, and it's this might sound bad, you have to be okay with offending. Yes. And it's not a license to go to be like, hey, you can offend people. That's not what I'm saying. No, I just mean to grow, you have to be able to put yourself in context where you will misstep and know that's gonna be okay. Like, to your point, you've existed in a lot of white spaces and you've built endurance. And I think, I mean, I felt when white people messed up with me and apologized and weren't they said, I'm like, oh, cool, but like so often, I'm like, oh, not a big one. Like so much of the time for me, like, okay, cool, yeah. Like it ain't nothing. Sometimes it's something, but a lot of times it's like, no, like whatever. It's like um and it's like, but sometimes I can see it like I have seen a white person like crumble before me because they feel like they say something that's slightly racist or offensive to me. Just think, and I'm like, but then what can happen? What can happen is then the black person can feel like I need to make you feel better.
SPEAKER_05Oh now you can yeah, you see what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01Yes. Oh, and so then it kind of ends up being this whole cycle and all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that's not a that's not a problem, that's not gonna be good.
SPEAKER_07That's not gonna end well. Yeah. Um, I think of it as like failure, you know, being okay with failure.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And uh you have to you have to fail, you have to fall down so that you can get back up again. Um, and so yeah, definitely I think that um a white person definitely has to be okay with failing as they attempt to move closer in relationship and be a bridge. And a relationship on different levels. It could be a coworker relationship, it can be a friendship relationship that's, you know, outer circle. It could be friendship inner circle, it could be church, you know, like there are a myriad of relationships that we have with people. And in that, we are, yeah, the offense is oftentimes going to happen more so at the hands of of the white person because they have not lived the experiences or had to live in a counterway by and large, right? They haven't lived in predominantly um black spaces or Asian spaces or the Hispanic spaces where they've had to figure it out and navigate it, right? And also when you think about people who have lived that are no right, are white and have lived in those spaces, they did navigate those and they probably failed a lot, but they failed early on as children, right? And then they they grew up and then they they knew how to navigate themselves and comport themselves with that particular cultural reef. Yeah, that's the same thing that has happened for a lot of as for myself. I can only really speak for me, as a black woman who has lived in predominantly white spaces, both growing up in the suburbs, the high schools, the colleges, the workplace that I've been in, all predominantly white spaces. And so I know how to comport myself around predominantly white culture because I have been experiencing this all this time. And so, um, yeah, it's gonna offend, especially when you're trying to grow relationships. Um, and that's it is okay. It's like, yeah, it's like I don't want to say it's okay and give people like a license, like you were saying, to offend. But I'm just gonna say, it's just gonna happen. And what you have to be more concerned about instead of being right or not failing is just knowing that it's going to happen and how am I going to respond when it happens.
SPEAKER_05That's good.
SPEAKER_07How am I going to pick myself up, right? And not require or ask that the person of color pick me up and console me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Right. How am I going to work towards reconciliation and how am I going to ask the Lord to guide me on that journey? Um, instead of asking that the person that I have offended guide me on some journey.
SPEAKER_01And it's like when there is this, if you fall apart at offending somebody else, you in some ways you want to ask why does it affect me so deeply? Like, do I have an image of myself that like I'm this perfect bridge builder that never offends, or I'm the most woke person in the situation or whatever, right? Like where I'm never gonna make a mistake. Because sometimes it's you be struggled with perfectionism, and then it's just about being this we are, right? Like when we struggle with perfectionism, but sometimes you have this image of yourself, and then when you fail in the racial conversation, you did you fall apart. Like, I mean, not faster in the kid and characters do this work. And like I literally have failed plenty of times. Yeah, like I mean, I have I I I have receipts of times people like, hey, listen, this this is offensive to me. And like you didn't you did not mention you did not mention us at all at this table, like are you considering us? And you know, I have had my reasons, but at the same time, like, yo, I'm sorry, like I wasn't, and we made a mistake. And I feel that way as a charity. Like, I have a lot of failures on the journey of learning, you know. Um because I think it's it's tough work. And I think maybe last thing to to talk doing this just there are some differences culturally, and I think it's just important to understand whatever bridge, whatever context you want to build a bridge in, like come with a level of humility and come as a learner.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01It's like if I enter into a place, this is really Hebrew, do I just assume I understand that too? It's 100%, or am I coming in to go? Let me understand this family dynamic. Do I understand how this family network works? Do I understand how this culture works, this church works, this board works? Do I understand these kind of things? And if I come in as a learner, it gives me a space to build a bridge in a way where like I'm actually hitting the point where the bridge needs to go. Rather than like kind of building over adjacent and the whole thing is a problem, because I've been building this way and the bridge really needs to be built that way. So I think that that level of humility as a learner is like an important aspect of the bridge. 100%.
SPEAKER_07Well no, humility will take you a long, a long way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. And I think that it has to be learned though. Like because I feel like naturally the human condition, um, we want to be proud and we want to be boastful about what we can do and not be so teachable all the time. It's our natural inclination. Yeah. Um, and sometimes we have to fight against that, right? Especially when you're very known and known well for something that you do, be it your job or your hobby or whatever it is that you do and you do it well. So it's like I have to now admit and face that I don't do something very well. And I have to be a learner, and I have to be teachable, and I have to be teachable potentially by a group of people that I haven't necessarily always valued or honored. And oh what, and then to have to realize when you start to do that, that what's the root cause work and start digging into that hole and seeing what's really going on, and start to face some of the beliefs or narratives that you have held in your head about a cultural group that now is correcting you, and you've never been corrected by this particular cultural group. That's something. That's tough, man. That's gonna that's the tough. That's now you're learning, you're you're at levels of this. Yeah, and that's that can be painful and hard. But again, you have to check yourself and say, how am I going to respond to this? And where am I going to get my strength from? Because clearly you don't have you don't have the strength to continue on. And so am I going to ask the Lord to again, you it's invitational. All this stuff is very invitational. It's like, am I going to um invite the Lord in on this journey? And also, if I offended someone or having offended someone, I'm just building a bridge and I know that I might in the future offend someone. Am I still going to ask this person to come with me and to and to join me on really what is my own life's work? Right. Um, it's not work that they need to do, but in order for me to do the work, I need you to partner with me.
SPEAKER_05You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01I do.
SPEAKER_05Um, so yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I love what you're saying too. It's like bridge building's hard, but and we need strength to do it. And so it's like you're gonna burn out of this game unless you get strength. So to your point, like being able to call on the board, have community, have some people in you for like day-ness work too, I think is what allows us to endure in bridge building work. But is it worth it?
SPEAKER_07It's 100% worth it. So 100% worth it. Now we'll have to say that you can't, every everyone is not cut off for this. You're right, and that's okay. I want to be very clear about that. Is that I always tell people, you could you could have fumbled the ball with me, and I'm glad you did that with me. But there are there are some black women, I just speak again for myself, but I know some of my sisters, and they would have been like, You there was no coming back from that. Yeah, you know, yeah, and I and I also oftentimes when I'm helping someone, I'm like, listen, fumble with me as much as you can.
SPEAKER_01You know? No, that's good because it's like even having that level of honest conversation. And I think too, to your point, which you said earlier of like uh putting deposits in, but like having you already had the relationship with the guy, like to go if you want to build a bridge to another culture, probably one of the first steps is do you have a relationship with somebody from that cultural group or from that organization board, whatever? And are you like putting the time in such a way where they could say say something like, Hey, you can actually feel with me, this is a safe place.
SPEAKER_05Exactly.
SPEAKER_01And that's really kind of what we all need. Yes, because then you can kind of you can go and be like, because you you have you're have a relationship with a cultural insider. Basically, they're on the other side of the bridge when you're trying to negotiate. Hey, listen, what do you think about this? Yes. I said this every year they got me like that up. Yeah, that was amazing. Well, I don't know. That was kind of interesting to respond to that. You know, like you you can even do some of that. And with the right relationships, it's like, yeah, of course, this is what we're doing.
SPEAKER_07Exactly. And also when you're building that relational equity, it's often about something that is not even related to the hard thing. Like my relationship with this person is is uh regarding music. So it's it's like our our enjoying of a similar musical composition is our connection, and it has nothing to do with the hard thing that we do over here.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And so I think don't take for granted, and this is why I always tell people, you know, find a hobby. Be interesting beyond the work that you do. That's correct. Because it's oftentimes the hobbies that you have, and I'm trying to be a collector of all the hobbies, as many hobbies as possible, because that's my on-ramp oftentimes to building relationships. People often ask me, oh, how do you have such a diverse coalition of people that you call friend or associate or you know, around you or at work? And it's because I do so many different things for Sharnice. You know, I take care of me, you know, and I think sometimes we neglect the personal work that we need to be doing, the personal work we need to be spending with the Father. And it's only through the overflow of that personal work that I am able to have the strength to do what I do out in the world and um out in the world connecting with people as well, the personal work that is not necessarily the reading scripture and praying relationship with the father, but connecting with him and his creation and the people that he's created, but also in the things that he has created through the people for us to enjoy, right? The I love biking, you know, I love writing letters, I love reading. Um, and and really also sometimes thinking about the fact that you might not love whatever thing it is, but because someone else loves it, right? You're gonna try your best to figure out what intersectionality I can have with this thing. I do not like anime. I'm just gonna be on experience. I'm offended. Yeah, you know, and my brother here, he loves it, right? Um, and so many people in my life, they love anime and they love Korean things. Like Korean pop culture is having a moment in America in a real way. And so many people that I love love it. And it's not my thing necessarily, but I'm always trying to figure out okay, where is there overlap and where can I jump in and have you know a point of connection because I know that one day that's gonna come back around.
SPEAKER_01That's good. I think I love what you said. You said two things I think is fewer than like your personal health, being like your relationship with the Lord, but also hobbies, like you need to be strong personally to be able to have energy to do this one. But then in that, realizing those are great opportunities to connect with people from different backgrounds, and even when you have a little bit of that ain't quite my thing, what does it look like for me to look for the connection point to say, oh, I can I can walk with you on that and almost appreciate what they appreciate. Yes, because I think that in some ways there's a little bit of love in that, but because I I can like it, get with it, understand it to some degree because you love it. It's really because I love you.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01And so because of that, that creates this again compassion, but also strength to build a bridge on something that you might not even actually involve with. But hey, it's been a good conversation. Love it, appreciate it. Thanks for coming on a pause, Charnie.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, glad to be here. Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01So this stopped. Oh, it did? Yep. I'm confirming that this did not, it did not perfect.