Leading without Losing Yourself with Walter Belton | Ep. 8

Leadership in diverse spaces comes with a unique tension: How do you grow in cultural awareness and lead people well without losing your own voice in the process?

In this episode of the CQ Podcast, Will sits down with Pastor Belton of Radiant Church for an honest conversation about leading in multi-ethnic spaces with authenticity, humility, and conviction. Together they unpack code switching, resisting unhealthy assimilation, navigating cultural differences, and learning how to serve people unlike yourself without pretending to be someone you’re not.

This conversation is for pastors, leaders, and anyone trying to faithfully engage people across lines of culture, background, and experience.

Because healthy leadership isn’t about becoming someone else. It’s about becoming more aware, more loving, and more authentically who God created you to be.

God doesn’t use perfect people. He uses authentic people surrendered to Him for His glory.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

From the block to the boardroom, from the pulpit to the CQ podcast exists to help you raise your cultural authority by disgusting how culture touches everything from a Christian worldview. Just like a fish swims in water, we swim in culture. And today we swimming with the Pastor Walter Belton, ladies and gentlemen. It is good to have you on the podcast today. It's good to be here, brother. As always, uh, I'm Will Plunk, Executive Director of the CQ Initiative, Lead Pastor Grace City Church. Uh, Pastor Belton, though, praise God, is a lead pastor of Radiant Church. Yes. And the last three years. Last three years, and I've had the privilege of being and have a share an office right across the hallway from you. And love to get as close as I can so that you will drip the wisdom onto me. But really, I was in the office the other day and uh we had a series on money we're doing. And really, you you laid down some some good words to me. So excited to have you on the podcast. Uh, want you to be able to share some of your story as well. But today we're talking about uh leading without losing yourself. And in any organization, Christian organization, church, it's easy, especially when you've been doing it a while, to forget who you are, give yourself away to the work that's in front of you without knowing who you really are in Christ. And I think in particular in multicultural contexts, because in multicultural context, there's just different pressures. And because there's different people there, sometimes they have different expectations or desires of you. And so it there's a tension between I want to give you what you need, right, and I need to be who I am, and to be able to do that for the long haul. So I think it's gonna be a good conversation. Yeah, we hope so. Uh, Pastor Belton, you any give us some context though. Who you are, where you from, how'd you get into ministry? Give us a little bit of context on yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

Uh, I'm originally from Ridgway, South Carolina, uh, a small town, probably uh 10 miles out of Columbia, South Carolina. Um, been in ministry uh for 26 years and been pastoring full-time for 23 years.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:20

Married, uh, four kids. Um, my wife and I be married 29 years in October. Praise God, hallelujah. Um, all my pastoring work, except the three years here, has been in um Spottenberg. So I passed a traditional Baptist church for 11 years and desired to do something differently. So um my wife and I decided to plant a church. So I planted a church, word of change, still in existence. Uh it's 10 years old, I think it'd be 11 years in June. Uh, and that's in Spainbird as well. So really three calls, three ministry stops. Yeah, and all three are different. Yeah. Uh so the first one, very traditional Baptist church, predominantly African American. Uh, then the plant we made was more like an outreach church. Uh, we didn't do a whole lot of traditional stuff. It was uh a younger congregation, and of course, now Radiant, who is an intentional, multi-ethnic, multicultural, diverse church.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Yeah, I'm sure each one ups and downs. So I'm sure you could even speak to probably different moments in those stages of your ministry life of what it looked like to lead in those contexts and not lose yourself. And again, the idea being we are sons and daughters, and we're also made with distinct personalities, cultural backgrounds, and it can be challenging to stay healthy while leading. But I'm curious, any any stories or lessons learned along the journey of those three stops of ministry?

SPEAKER_03 4:00

I think for for any pastor, any minister, trying to discover who they are as a minister, trying to discover their voice in the pulpit, like it's a journey, it's an evolution. Um, and it doesn't help when you find yourself in a new environment that you're not used to. If you go to a traditional all-white church or a traditional all-black church, now you're in a multi-ethnic, you almost have to rediscover your voice.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

Um, because you need to minister to the people you're ministering to. Like the content may not change, but your delivery would change. Okay. Um, because you want to make sure people are receiving what you want to give. And I think the worst thing for a pastor or a preacher to do is just to assume they need to take what I'm giving them. Like, my responsibility is to feed the sheep. And if uh the sheep is not receiving how I'm giving it, then it's up to me to make some adjustments. Okay. Uh, and so that's something I had to do coming to Radiant as far as delivery style change up. But as far as pastoring, I I think skills uh and requirements of pastoring, it transcends regardless of what denomination, what uh type of church you have, like honesty and integrity and and loving people. Like it doesn't matter what congregation it is, you need that as a pastor. Yeah. And so as far as pastoring, that wasn't a whole lot I had to adjust to. Okay. Uh coming into a multi-ethnic setting, uh, but delivery, I had to do that.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

So tell us about the delivery something, like when you were thinking about, because I think that's a good tension to pull on a little bit, the idea of I need to adjust myself, not just expect them to get along with whatever I'm saying, how I'm saying it. So, how do you how do you know what to adjust and what not to adjust when you're making those decisions?

SPEAKER_03 6:01

I had a friend of mine when I was coming coming to Charleston, uh, he's an older gentleman, and he said this. He said, Um, when you're preaching to an all-black crowd, you say what you think. But when you're preaching to an all-white crowd, you gotta think about what you say. Which I find to be true, uh uh because in that setting, you know, they especially being new, right? So I knew everything that I was saying would be on the scrutiny. So it kind of it kind of took away some of the freedom that I was used to in the pulpit. Okay. Um But I realized and lived by it, like uh the ministry uh is not for the minister. The minister is for the ministry. That's good. So I do what's necessary to make sure that my people are fed. Um and so like in some settings, like you can you can flow a little more easy, right? Uh because you if you've been pastoring a church while people already know your voice, right? They they kind of know how you flow, but in a new place, people are trying to learn that. So you have to slow down. Uh the other part is like I don't give as much content, right? Okay. Um, because people are trying to learn me. And I'm trying to learn how they respond. And so why I'm while I'm teaching and preaching to them, I'm also learning from them, right? Uh monitoring the crowd. Because like preaching has not taken place until um the giver has allowed the receiver to receive what they were given in the way that they were trying to give it, right? Yeah. So it's not just giving out information, right? I want to make sure that we have a connection. Uh, and so the only way that can really happen is that you gotta take time.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:52

Like it's not gonna happen in the first three months that you're there. That's good. You just gotta take time. And and I believe you do that not by what you just do in the pulpit, but also what you do among the pews.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:04

Like getting to know people, having a conversation with them, asking them questions about uh what did you hear today? Yeah. Uh so I think that's the best route to go.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

So it's like it's it's learning them too, I hear you saying. It's like you got to take the time to get to know the people and not just expect the people to get to know us. Exactly. And I think that is that that can be challenging too. You know, there's a gen, I think this generation, one of the cries is like, I want to be authentic. You know, I want to be, I want to be able to be authentic, I want to be me. And there's a lot of intentional thought, I think, given generationally to considering self. And I think a lot of that can be really healthy, right? Like we don't want to be someone we're not. Right. But one thing I appreciate that you're saying and drilling in is although that may be true, we still need to make like we have to feel responsibility as leaders and shepherds to adjust ourselves to be able to love the people that God has given us.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

Yeah, it's that's not giving up anything about you, right? Yeah. Um, because depending on the crowd will determine like what you're gonna deliver, how you're gonna deliver it, right? Uh you can't go from um preaching or or talking to uh a room full of attorneys and then go talk to a room full of uh inmates. Yeah. The same way, right? You might have the same context, but you want to bring it down that they can receive it. Um so I think preaching is the same way.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

So t speak to somebody like around the idea of authenticity. Like, is there ever in that adaptation, when is that healthy? I'm accounting for the audience, and when could it be, oh, this is like this is either a caricature or you're just or it could like could you I guess could there ever be you go too far with that type of thing?

SPEAKER_03 9:52

I think if you you are authentic to yourself, right? Only you can determine that. Okay. And I think like being in ministry over 20-something years, like I think all ministers at some point wrestle with I want to be liked. I want to be received, right? And in my younger years, trying to find my voice, trying to find what kind of pastor I would be, like, I had to stop being my pastor. So I sat on him for several years. So uh many times when I was preaching and teaching, I could hear his voice. Yeah. And so I had to figure out like what was my voice and get comfortable with that. And it didn't help when social media exploded and your people can tap in and listen to any preacher in the world. Okay. Right? Uh, and so you find yourself trying to compare yourself and maybe be like some preacher because you think you're gonna get the same resorts. Right? You you maybe maybe I'll I'll I'll talk in the cadence of Joel Osteen or I I go radical like Jakes. Get ready, get ready, you know. But at some point, like you just gotta be you. Yeah, amen. Um, because I believe God called you. And if God called you, God call the brokenness in you, uh, the gifting in you, the hurt, the pain. Uh, because if God wanted perfection, like he could have had angels deliver the gospel. That's a good word. But he chose imperfect men. Yeah. And I think preaching has not happened until you leave a part of yourself uh on the stage. Wow. Um but the quicker you get to the place where you're okay with you, like be okay with you. Yeah. Um with your flaws, if you don't uh pronounce every word okay, like be okay with you. Yeah, yeah. Like that's gonna go over a whole lot quicker than trying to be like somebody else, sound like somebody else. And what I found, if you practice you at all times, then when you're in the pulpit, it'll become easy. That's good. Um, instead of becoming um this um Clark Kent, you know, out there when you're talking to everybody, but then when you get in the pulpit, you're super man, you're superman, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

I uh you reminded me of uh early in ministry where I was making a transition from youth to a campus pastor, and I started not preaching, but I was host I was up front and I was giving the announcements and hosting and things. And I remember doing that for six months. And then as I was getting ready one morning and just rehearsing them and going over them, I realized that I had the entire time been rehearsing them and going over them, thinking about how am I gonna sound to the people and will they like how this sounds? Will this sound compelling? And though those were the questions in my head, and I had been doing it for six months. And the Lord just it was one of those like humbling moments where he brought me to my face and going, you haven't been asking me what I want to say. Like you haven't been you haven't been asking me what I want to say, and I it was very humbling to me, and I realized like this tension in me of it's like there is appropriate healthy adaptation, and then there is like people pleasing. And there can be tension in that, and even in ministry, I've found there's sometimes it's like, oh, I could be in a season, and I there had been some lie that had the enemy had planted in my mind, and I've been operating out of that lie for a while. And in and I think that's one of the challenging things that can happen in like we're talking about like leading without losing yourself, like for the long haul, is I've found different times like oh this this lie has been embedding itself into me and it's existed for this amount of time, and it's starting to make me grow discouraged because I'm doing it. I'm if I'm live if I'm really being motivated by some lie or people pleasing, that's not gospel. That's right, and so that's exhausting. Like, religion is gonna always make me feel tired in a way that gospel makes me feel light. Not that it's not hard work, but it can make you feel light, and so I'm curious too, and I've been I have mad respect. Like when you came to Radiant and how how I saw you navigate yourself, walk, pastor, preach. I, as a younger minister looking to you, getting to know you at the time, had I would and I I communicated this to you, I think. Like I was blown away because I'm like, this man is a real deal. And there was just because of some of the sacrifices you had made and things like this. And I'm like, yo, this he I was like, this man, he he really about about that. And and I just I think I want you to be able to communicate too how you maintain that level of integrity, authenticity to you, but to God and in various situations and circumstances. Like how how to if you're gonna speak to a younger leader, like how to stay in the game longer with that level of integrity and honesty, like what would you say?

SPEAKER_03 15:02

Yeah, there is a there is a story, I think, uh Elijah, uh, where he wanted to follow Elijah wanted to follow Elijah. Uh-huh. And uh once he made that decision, it said that he he took his uh his oxen and his plows, that he broke the plows up, burned it, took the oxen and cooked it, right? Um he had reached a point of no return. Right. There's no going back to that. Like whenever I got to a point of no return where I'd been in ministry so long that it would be very difficult to go and do something else. And so all my eggs were in this basket, right? Um and so I had to learn to trust in something that would not change because everything about ministry is subject to change except God. And it does not matter uh what situation you find yourself in, what city you find yourself in, the same God that was where you were will be where you're going. Yeah. And traveling with you as you travel, right? Uh and so I've learned to go into difficult situations, not depending on my skills or my ability, but I just trust him. I just got this crazy faith that if God brings me to it, he's gonna grace me through it. And I've just seen him do that. Uh, and so some people uh may see me working and operating, say, hey, man, that man's got giant faith. Nah, I've just seen God work. Like when when things do happen, there there's a level of excitement in me that God's about to do something else. Yeah. Right? Because God promised to never leave you nor forsake you. Yeah. So like uh when I was on sabbatical last last year and I got the email that uh the daycare clothes. Like that was a substantial amount of money that would not be coming into the church, right? And so uh some of our people, you know, they begin to panic. And I actually said to the church that Sunday, I'm excited. I'm excited because God is about to do something different. Uh, and so I've just learned to trust him uh in those moments. And that's the only way you build your faith. And I and I said this to one of our elders yesterday we were talking, that I've come to the place I realize I don't grow in comfort, I only grow in intention. Yeah, I only grow when God is stretching, and so though I I I like comfort, but I realize like when when those moments come, like God's about to do something. And many times He's doing something in me. So I've suffered a lot of loss in my life. Um mama, father died, uh, 14-year-old son, I've had uh probably there was 11 of us, uh, four siblings, there's only four of us left. And so just seeing a lot of loss, and I've seen God um even take those hard moments and use them in ministry. And also instead of allowing that to destroy me, um, God has used that to kind of build me and equip me that I can help others when they go through difficult times. So um I don't have no magic. I just I just trust him, man. I I've learned to allow God to be God. And for for many pastors, that's challenging because we want to control, right? Because as a leader and as a pastor, when when you got control over it, you you think you have a sense of peace. Yeah. Because uh we get shaken sometimes when stuff happens in the ministry, um, that uh a large number of people leave the church because you know, whatever. Um we take it personal, right? Uh money problems. We stress. Um we got we gotta deal with uh a disciplinary action in the church. Yeah, we stress. Yeah. I've learned not to stress on that, man. It's like if there's something to stress about, let me get in and then find out. Because I I'm not just gonna waste stress. Like if I'm gonna stress, I wanna know exactly why I'm stressing about it, right? So I'm I'm gonna go into it and see what's happening. Um, and if I can do something to fix it, then I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

Like that uh serenity prayer, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. That's good. Like only God can give you that wisdom to know the difference. Yeah. And so as long as I believe in how I function, as long as I do my part, God always does his part.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Yeah, amen. Yeah, he's faithful even when we're not, but he's always faithful. And I love it. I hear you saying, like ultimately, that God is God and trusting him in faith are the things that carried you through in those times. And I think that's so that's that's so it. Because like, how do you how do you lead for the long haul? It's like you trust God for the long haul. Yeah, you stay with him and realize he's the one in control, he's the one leading us, he's the one working, because if he isn't, we don't stand a chance. And if not, to your point, like on pastors and I've had seasons where I really do want to control. And a lot of times I think as a leader, it can feel well intentioned intended. It's like if I can grab can then I'm gonna be helpful and I want to make sure I'm helpful and I and I need to do it. And if I don't do it, who's gonna do it? Or I need I can do it right or have this knowledge, you know. So it's like it's that it feels well intended, but I've heard it it also can be a messiah complex. Oh, yeah. But it feels well intended as you're trying to grab a hold of something and sometimes to muscle it or to worry it to the ground. But it really is no good in the like I think it does is that's why a lot of us burn out.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

It wears you out.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

It's because it's so exhausting to do that. Uh thinking about faith, I've heard faith defined, we were defined in our series in Hebrews as uh yesterday's grace and tomorrow's hope, producing today's obedience. It's like looking back and knowing God has done it, it's like he's I have so many receipts of his faithfulness to me, but also his grace is for tomorrow. So like I know he's got promises that I can rely on, and then so today I'm just gonna obey. Yeah, you know, I'm just gonna take that step.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

There's something powerful about remembering, right? So the one thing Jesus gives to his disciples before he leaves is a means of remembering him. Because we're subject to forget. Like God has allowed us to cross the Red Sea, He's destroyed Pharaoh's army, and here we are facing now another army, and we got this uh crazy new fear about. Something God has already done before. Like remember who he was. Right. Like Jesus say in the Lord's Supper, look, do this in the remembrance of me. Don't forget how much I love you.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:12

Like I'm I'm going to the cross on your behalf. And so I have to constantly sometimes remind myself when those moments happen. God hasn't done this before, man.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

So you anything you do to rem help yourself remember or like talk to myself. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

For those maybe listen, that doesn't mean you're crazy. Because I don't answer myself. I do talk to myself. I can't say that there haven't been in these over 20-something years of pastoring moments of fear, moments of anxiety. And I remember in um 2012, um hit a very dark spot in ministry. People were still getting saved, still baptizing folks, right? And I'm wrestling in this darkness who felt like the enemy was trying to take me out, you know, uh just consumed with anxiety and fear. Um and just one day I I got to my office after my wife and I went out of town uh for our anniversary. I can't remember uh 90% of what we done. Because I was it was just that challenging in that moment. And I remember coming to my office and just sitting and crying out, like, God, if this is you and you're doing something, do it quickly, Lord. But if this is not you, and this is the enemy, God, I need you to remove. I can't take no more. Yeah. Like, I'm at the point of giving up, you know. Um, and man, just that quick. And it just lifted. Really? It just lifted. And I have haven't experienced something like that uh before, but I believe the reason why I ended up in that moment, this was my first church I was pastoring. When I came to church, it went through a split. Um 34 people there uh still have the uh the record of the meeting. Uh they had just moved in this brand new building, had a million-dollar mortgage on it, right? And just trying to to really do what I needed to do, try to get this ministry back healthy, back healthy. And I was just uh spending long hours, uh, felt like the the weight of the ministry was on me. And it was just too much, right? Yeah. Um, and so I that's why I never go that route again. I'm I'm comfortable now with a position unfilled. I I'm comfortable with uh something not working uh because I'm gonna give somebody else space to do it.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

Um I remember um a couple years ago we was having an issue with our online stuff. And my wife's like, baby, won't you just go ahead and fix it? I said, Nope. Because if I fix it, I would always be fixing it. Yeah. Like, wait a little while, have patience. So what if we don't go online the Sunday or next Sunday or three Sundays? Uh I'm gonna give somebody the opportunity to rise up and take that assignment. And somebody did. Yeah, right. But as a younger pastor, I was paranoid that if everything's not right on Sunday morning, right? I'm I'm running from the pulpit sometime, uh just in the sound, you know.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Yeah, so I hear that's a good word because I hear I'm hearing you say part of it is being okay with things not being perfect, be okay with things not being okay. And that's how we endure in ministry, is like, yeah, everything don't have to be great. And I think that's probably true for all leaders. It's like when you have that mentality, and I think those of us who are perfectionists might struggle with it more of like I really when you have that mentality, like it's gonna crush you. And so you got to be okay with that, and then watch God fill in the gaps. Yes, because he does through his people, but we get to see God move and God work, and then I think that reminds us, oh, all of this stuff, all of what we're doing is actually we get to be the instruments in the hand of the world. The Lord is the one doing it, and and I he's given me the privilege of involvement, but it's not up to me to keep getting this stuff done. No, so now talk about again, we're leading without losing ourselves, but particularly in cross-cultural, multi-ethnic, diverse communities. Because I think there's some unique challenges there of just of how to endure. I think there's there have been, I know some black pastors who really felt the call and the lead, kind of regardless of the context they grew up in to multi-ethnic ministry. But then through some of the shootings and deaths and through 2020, there they were definitely, and it's true for all pastors and USCs and really just people living, but giving up on it. And and some give gave up not just on church in general, but multi-ethnic church in particular, just because of the unique challenges and tensions that lie there. So for somebody who is leading in an organization or they're a Christian leader in a in a nonprofit, maybe, and let's say they want they want to keep they want to keep pushing this idea of cross-culturalism. Like, what might you tell them to say hey keep to help kind of give them the energy to keep going in the work and to not give up after they have maybe keep beating their head against the wall to make this thing work over the course of five, ten, ten odd years? Like that staying power for the cross-cultural ministry.

SPEAKER_03 27:37

Yeah, I think I think one of the main things you you're gonna have to do, you you're gonna have to answer your why. Like why you're doing this. Am I doing it because this is the popular thing right now in ministry? Because a lot a lot of pastors and a lot of ministers, they jump to the the latest great things in a hope that this is gonna be what blow them up.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

That's a great point.

SPEAKER_03 28:01

And so you gotta have a why. My my why was always uh being faithful, like being faithful to what I believe God was calling me to. And I think what what helps sustain that is that I I've come to the place where I'm okay with me. Right? Now this is this is me at almost 58. Now me at 38 was a different guy, right? Because I was still trying to discover me.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

You taking a personal shot at me as a 37 almost eight-year-old?

SPEAKER_03 28:37

I'm just saying, I was 37 when I started pastoring, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:40

I'm just messing up.

SPEAKER_03 28:41

When I when I first started uh senior pastor, I was uh youth pastor for three years before I started uh being a senior pastor. Um, but getting to the place where I'm comfortable in the skin that I'm in, yeah. Of who I am, my my imperfections, um, knowing my skill level, knowing my giftedness that I bring to the table and being okay with that, and and not being threatened uh by another gifted individual. But embracing that. Um being in an elder setting, having other ministers, younger ministers that are so much more gifted than me. I mean, the the guys on our on our team, man, just is bright as I don't know what. Uh but that doesn't intimidate me because they don't have what I have. Yeah like I bring years of wisdom, uh, of insight that they don't have. Um, but if you're not careful as a pastor, you get threatened by somebody else's giftedness uh when the truth is, man, they can only make you better. Yeah. Um and so answering your why and the other part is being okay with you. Being okay with you, uh, and bringing you to the setting. Like one of the worst things I think a black pastor or black person who's entering into a predominantly white space is you cold switch to to adapt or assimilate to that group, right? Like you you'll fit in easier uh because what I found like being a part of Southern Baptist for uh many years now, that many times the safe guy is the guy they go to. Right? The one who comes in and assimilate to the culture there, um, who coach switch and make them feel comfortable uh and protect whiteness in the room. Like those guys, you know, they they'll rise up in rings. But I found like uh one of the worst things you can do is not be you. Yeah. Um that's worse for you, but it's also worse for them because they don't get an opportunity to actually get to know a real black man.

SPEAKER_04 30:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:00

Right? My my intent in in coming into the white space is to not only learn, because you gotta think about it, while they were writing commentaries and um uh building seminaries, we were still picking cotton in America. And so they have every right to be a little more advanced in certain areas. Now, of course, we I think we bridged that gap in the last 20 or 30 years. Um, but I wanted to tap into that source. But also, I think one of my other assignments is to bring blackness in me into the setting that they can be exposed to it. Yeah. Because even though they had some um black people around, they weren't really black.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

And that's that's I think that's good. Uh Brian LaRiz has a really great book, you know, Right Color, Wrong Culture. Um and uh on some of what you're saying. But I I also think when you code switch and assimilate, once you start, it's hard to stop. It's hard, it becomes who you are, right? It becomes who you are. You basically learn to live with the mask on. And then when you have that mask on, it becomes harder and harder to take it off the longer that you wear it. And I do think we do a disservice to the body of Christ by not being who made us to be. And it's like we gotta we gotta bring that to the table and help help people towards that end. So I love you saying be who you are in that in that yeah, be authentically you, right?

SPEAKER_03 32:26

Yeah, and like I I I've told them in in settings in the the high rank of the convention, like this is who I am. Yeah, I'm loud, I got a big voice. Yeah. I when when I come in the room, I I suck up some air. Yeah, like just who I am.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Like, I'm and it's just dope because you gotta, it's like knowing it, it's this tent and I because you started talking about the needing to adjust, and I think that's where sometimes people want to know the anatomy of all of that rather than kind of trusting God in the process and of going, there are ways I need to adapt, and there are ways I need to be me. And it's actually gonna take me. I gotta be okay with that even taking time. Like I can speak as a 37-year-old pastor that it has taken me time. And I've I feel as though I've become more me the longer I've ministered. But that has taken for me, taken some masks off I'd had on for a long time because I was that safe black person. That's that's what I was.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

Yeah, and you know, and I think it's okay to admit that, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:29

That's exactly what I was doing. And I think, and to your point, it's like, okay, what is it, what does it mean for me to not just go be the black power, you know, I'm all about whatever, but to be who am, who am I, and that to be okay. And I I always want to kind of encourage and challenge people in spaces, especially when there's minorities around and it's a majority contact text, to leave room for self-exploration. Like we that needs to be true for everybody, right? But you but to almost create some space and not because we accidentally, I think, push people to assimilate. And part of it's good. It's like we want to have a shared culture and shared values, but I think when you really delight in differences, you can also really celebrate people for their uniqueness rather than to your point, even on like skill level, being threatened by it. Yeah. You know, sometimes it's like, oh, if you do this differently than me, or if I see you highlighting something that you find valuable that I might not find as valuable, right? Then then that might get in the way of what? My kingdom. Because I'm building my kingdom, not God's kingdom. That's it. And I think that that can that that can definitely happen in spaces.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

So yeah, so one of one of our core values at Radiant is cross-culture over comfort, right? And so when whenever I make or a church makes room for different people, right? He's gonna cost me something. It is. Well, that's the beauty of the gospel, right? It is that I I give up that my brother and sister can have, right? Make room for them. Um, but it it brings something uh to the room that wasn't there, than to have somebody to come in and automatically just assimilate to what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

And you're making me think about something that Philippians passage where Paul is talking about all the all the education and the Hebrew heritage, all the stuff he gives out for the sake of Christ. But sometimes I think what happens is in leadership spaces, we want to force them to give give up something. Like we want to push on them. You need to, you need you're making, you're making, you're doing too much rather than let us go, let me be the one to give up. Like, I guess we're saying we force them to make the decision to give something up rather than giving it up ourselves. You see what I'm saying? Like I think we would be better served as instead of going, hey, you're making this too big of a deal, I need to adjust you to think about first, okay, how should I, how can I adjust myself to love you and meet you wherever you are? Because I do think sometimes it's like when the black person comes to the majority context, again, the majority context can kind of have this pressurize of you need to code switch, you need to do this, you're making too big, you're making too big a deal out of this kind of stuff, and they don't have ears to think, oh, maybe that is actually a helpful indictment on us. Like maybe we should be making a bigger deal about something we're not. We're just blind to it because we've been in it for a long time. And it's that kind of way where cultural blindness comes. Like just when you've been in the same water for an extended period of time, you still know you went. And I find that that has been true for me sometimes. It's like, oh, someone's bringing a critique that might feel uncomfortable to me. But I could just say it's wrong because I'm not familiar with it or it makes me feel uncomfortable, or I can first check my own biases and prejudices or whatever, and they oh maybe that's actually you may be right. You may be right about that. But no, I think again, leading without losing yourself. I'm curious, you got anything else, any um insightful tips for anybody to just kind of keep on doing the work before we end up?

SPEAKER_03 37:10

I would say, like, not just with pastors, I also think about like pastors' wives. Like we have a little more protection. Like we're we're in the pulpit. We we do have some authority that the church gives us so we can kind of frame how we're gonna walk. Like a pastor's wife walks into a church, especially if it's a church that her husband did not plant, right? You walk into an existing church, there's already been a first lady before, and there's there's a culture built around that, and so she comes into a place with this expectation on her. Uh, so when I when I first start pastoring, I told my wife, uh Sharon, I said, you be who you are. You dress how you want to dress, you don't have to participate in no ministry but the one you choose. I told her, your only assignment is to be my wife and be the mother of my children.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

Amen.

SPEAKER_03 38:11

Everything else you choose, right? And so that allowed her to not lose her identity in me. Yeah. In this big shadow that I cast as the pastor of the church. That's good. Um, and so I I I think also with any leader, like you got to first know who you are and be good with that. Um, because you will always, especially in ministry and church, you're gonna always walk into a space that will try to force you to conform. Yeah. And to tell you, like, this is how we do it, this is how you need to think, this is how you need to talk. And you gotta be comfortable enough when you feel somebody pushing against your identity to say, oh oh, no, no, I'm okay with this. Yeah. Right. Um, and so that's gonna be an ongoing thing. Um, because culture can shift. Right? I think they said like culture is what you allow. Yeah, like you can have a beautiful culture, but if you start allowing certain things, you're gonna look around, you got a different kind of culture. Yeah, it's become unhealthy. Um so finding out who you are, being okay with who you are, and bring who you are to the table. Uh so I don't have to remember who I was yesterday, right? I don't have to remember uh who I was at Bible study, who I was at community group, like who I was in D group. Like, I can be who I am regardless. Like, if you are a person with a sense of humor, then there should be some sense of humor when you're in the pulpit. Yeah. Right? If you're more analytical, that should be a part of what you bring. Like, that's the reason why I believe God calls so many different people out to preach his word because he wanted a different flavor every time. Amen. Like he he already had He's cooking with all the seasonings. Yeah, he wants all the flavors. The 13, what's KFC? 13 spices.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

So, you know 13 herbs and spices. One of the refrains of what I'm hearing you lay down is it reminds me of the scene from the first Black Panther where uh Chichala is fighting Mbaku for the for the three and he's getting beat up, and Mbaku's, no, show them who you are.

SPEAKER_04 40:25

Exactly. Don't find one stoop. He's like, show him who you are.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

And then, like, from that, you're strong. And I think that is that's part of it. It's like, and just get in the book, man. Like, you gotta get with the Lord to know who you are. We don't know who we are without the Lord's guidance, but he makes sense of our ethnic background, he makes sense of our gender, he makes sense of our personality and experiences, and he's so good how he does it, and it strengthens us to be able to stay in this this game in the long run. I mean, I really want Christians everywhere to be some of the most persevering, like long-term patient people because we can endure because Christ for the joyset before him endured the cross. You know, scoring a shame. It's like we have the ability to endure differently, to be patient differently, to fight the good fight differently, because we have somebody who did it for us. And so I do hope wherever people might be listening and whatever organization they might be in, or church they might be in, or nonprofit they might be in, fighting the good fight, maybe feeling discouraged, to just know it is hard. Like let's let go and not try to have everything perfect. We're not the Messiah. We're sons and adopted sons and daughters of the king, but we can endure. Yes, because Christ endured for us. So great conversation, Pastor. Amen. I appreciate you having me on. As always, the CQ. We got uh we got consulting workshops that are happening, podcasts, blogs that are dropping. So just love everybody to follow along and with this this CQ journey. But thanks for being on. Thank you for having me, brother. Yeah.