Knowing vs. Growing with KeJuan Robinson | Ep. 10

In this episode KeJuan is back and we’re hitting on Knowing vs. Growing. It’s possible to agree with something but never actually let it change the way you live.

In this conversation, we explore why transformation requires more than good theology, how Scripture shapes our understanding of unity and why pursuing people different from us is part of experiencing more of God’s Kingdom

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

From the block to the boardroom, from the pulpit to the pew, the CQ podcast exists to help you raise your cultural fluency by discussing how culture touches everything from a Christian worldview. Just like a fish swims in water, we swim in culture. And today we swimming with Kewan Robinson. Yes, yes. I'm super hyped. Always good to have you on the backman on today.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Feeling good. I'm feeling good. I'm a little bit sleepy, but but it's okay. You know, yeah. It was some it's my undoing. So that's fine. You want to tell that to tell the people? Um just spent, you know, having some time last night to just doing some fellowship, some fellowship. On 2K, if you were wondering. And then got up uh just uh try to get a workout in. So here I am on the podcast. Praise Jesus. Thanks for being here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

For sure. Thank you. Um, Keyword Robinson, ladies and gentlemen, uh, director of ministry operations at Gray City Church, intentionally multi-ethnic diverse church. Um, Will Plunk. Uh, I get the privilege of serving as the executive director of CQ Initiative, lead pastor of Grace City Church. And uh here we are on the CQ pod on today. Excited about our topic. Our hope today is really to help you grow in cultural fluency. To go, what does it really mean to grow in this and to not just be somebody who's talking about it? Really in ministry and life, uh, there are a lot of people, Christians in particular, who would say they care about the things we talk about on the CQ podcast, would say they care about uh living a diverse life because they think the Bible says they should live a diverse life. They say they care about people of color, they say, hey, we're one in Jesus, but over the course of 10 years, their life hasn't changed. Yep. They they really are stagnant in that. And so what does it look like for someone to say they care to move into change? Yeah. Not to just be information, but into formation. So that's the that's the conversation to know.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

I'm excited to chat. I feel like over the last few years, especially the last three, we've really seen this, especially as this worked out at our church, how we walk towards being and becoming and still maintaining a multi-ethnic church and seeing people that had to shift their perspectives a little bit, had to shift their actions a little bit, and rather than just sit in the theological knowledge of it all, be be willing to say, okay, I actually need to take some steps to change. So why don't people not change? Why do people not change? I think that's a great question. Um, and I'll start with a stinger a little bit. I think pride is a reason that people don't change. Um and I but I think that pride itself manifests in a couple different ways. Um, I think we can um there is a propensity to identify with it and really say, hey, I know God talks about this, but I think there can be an an arrogance about how people walk in it. So it's like, okay, God says this, but I'm going to pursue it in my way, that's gonna maintain my comfortability. Um, so whether it looked like me trying to pursue people um while also asking them to assimilate, um, whether that be intentional or not, yeah. Um, or um me just positioning myself in the places where I know it's most safe. Um so it can be like, oh, I kind of know, I know how to do this, so I'm I'm gonna figure this out on my own. Um and there's a there's a lack of willingness um to be to be wrong, I guess. It's like I they want they would rather just like be in the situations where they're like, okay, I'm in control. Yeah. Um I know I can do this. So that's one manifestation of pride. And I think the other pride component that I was thinking through was the the opposite side where people are like falsely humble. So I think people can talk about these things and have these conversations, but they're actually not willing to be vulnerable and make mistakes and say something wrong around um people of color because they don't want to step on toes. Yeah. Um, whether they have an experience in the background that um in their background or their um past where they say, Man, I tried, I tried to pursue diversity, I tried to be curious, I tried to ask questions, and then I was ostracized, I was made fun of, or whatever. So they they have taken this position of false humility to say, okay, I'm just gonna lessen, lessen myself in a way that's just gonna get along, you know what I'm saying? Oh, yeah. Um, so I can so we can just keep pushing forward rather than walking in true unity, which actually comes out of sharpening, which actually comes out of disagreements, which actually comes out of making mistakes. Yeah. So I think that's that is one of the first things I thought about when thinking about why people kind of stay in the same place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

I I completely agree. I mean, I def I think pride for all of us ends up being this like uh insidious, adaptable, crafty thing in which it manifests itself in all these different ways, which is always hindering us from following Jesus and what he wants us to do. Yep. And it helped allows us to make all sorts of excuses as to why why we're not doing it. Yep. Like one of the things I was thinking on was just do we believe it's what the Lord says, or do you think it's a good idea? And for some people, it's like, oh, I think this is a good idea, and the Lord might be cool with it. And I see how the Bible kind of talks about it, but for me, it was when I realized it was the thus saith the Lord. It was this is what God is requiring of man, this is what it looks like to really live into biblical unity, that we can't just say we can't pray or uh yeah, the the Lord's prayer that his kingdom come, his will be done, and not desire to have our life look like the kingdom, which is multi, multi-ethnic and and diverse in in all ways. And so I think there's that, but interesting enough, when you when you think thus saith the Lord, and even you have your theological convictions, I think sometimes what happens is like you still don't catch a real glimpse of what it could look like. Oh, for sure. And so you so you still kind of just kind of get stuck in these waters. Yeah. One of the things though that that has frustrated me at times, and I and why I think, oh, I don't think people really believe that, is sometimes when folk will leave our church, they they'll be very quick to go back to a monoethnic church.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

And you're like, oh, did you ever did you ever believe this? Yeah, and they might still believe it and want to work on that church, right? Give them the benefit of the doubt. It doesn't mean that that they don't believe it all, but I do think for some people they're just like they're here in our church, at least it's a diverse church, and we talk about it. Yeah. They they the whole time have been here for other things, but that has been more auxiliary, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Not really believing in the Lord. For sure, for sure. Absolutely. I think people could kind of coast in a lot of ways because as long as the church provides the things or what they would deem as the essentials for them to have a good church experience, that's all that really matters, and these things that kind of are outside of it. It's like unless it starts to, as we've seen this, step on the toes of these essentials, I'm kind of cool with it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Um, so no, yeah, it is it is interesting. Um some in some situations, remarkable to think about all the times that we've had these communications around what we believe around the multi-ethnic church and what the Lord wants to do um on this side of eternity. But then you can kind of see after time, especially as people leave. I mean, obviously, this is no shade. It's just more, it's just more when people leave and you see that step, you're kind of just like, wait, I don't know if you really saw this fully in the way um that it may have seemed that you saw this in the scriptures.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

So to me, one of the things is going, read your Bible. Like, really start asking the Bible those questions. Yeah, because sometimes I think we can even, whether it be prayer, whether it be justice, whether it be biblical fellowship with community and how we live in community, the importance of local church, all these things, yeah. If we if we can just sit under teaching, we can be in the seat of pride and judgment. Oh, for sure. But when you start reading the Bible yourself and going, hey, Lord, what do you say about it? Then it forces us to think about things differently because then you can't really ignore it anymore. You got to go, I've asked God, right? And now I have now what's his answer? Yeah, I've asked God and what's he gonna say back to me. For sure. And that's what I hope for everybody. Yeah, I think the only way, like at least a beginner for how do you move from uh care to change, yeah, is just going, have I really sat with the Lord long enough to for sure? What do you really say about the topic? Yeah, that's true for anything. It's like if we want our prayer life to change, right? You gotta start going, what does God really say about prayer? Yeah, so many people are like, He's sovereign, so I don't really need it. Does it really matter if I pray? I'm like, that's not the Bible at all. The Bible don't talk about prayer like that at all. Yeah, for sure. It's like he's sovereign, so pray like the persistent widow who doesn't ever give up. Yeah, yeah. No further, yeah. I think it's just what does the Bible even say about it?

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Yeah, for sure. And I think once people take the time to do so, they'll realize that the scriptures have been talking about this literally from the jump. And I think that is what's so cool. Is I I felt like the Lord had stirred some stuff up in me as I was starting to uh grow in my cross-cultural journey and trying to figure out what it looks like for me to live into my culture while also building bridges. And I feel I was honestly, this is six years ago, literally, but I was appalled to see how much the scriptures talk about this in a way of multicultural, not just existing or or functioning, but living and thriving. You know what I mean? Um, especially like the first thing I think about is Genesis 12, um, when Abram's called and he's he's going to be a blessing to all nations. Yeah. And that's the first time we clearly see that the gospel um and the power and the relationships that God is offering to us is not just for one culture, yeah, for one cultural group. Amen. And we see that it's actually going to go beyond um to all the nations. So I think that knowing that that's like page four or five, I guess, or the Bible or something like that, I don't know, depending on the size of your phone. But I think, I think seeing it from there and kind of just taking the time to work through the whole scriptures um to see, because I think, like you mentioned, we do that with so many other things as we think about our our ethics and how we live this life and how we're supposed to do things on this earth. And I think with multiculturalism, especially around um race um in America, it is one of those things that can feel so sticky given the history that people are like, I would rather not touch anything with that. Let's just let's just erase and look forward because that's where we're we can only go forward. Um, but we can we can only really live and thrive for it if we actually take the time to look backwards. Um, and starting first and foremost with the scriptures, it's like what does the scripture say about race relations? What does it say about how we are not only to just um brush shoulders with, but actually thrive and live with and challenge and correct and love um across cultures.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Yeah, and we got that class coming up on mosaic, and one of the things I was thinking about in in preparation for the class was just that phrase that we say is the Bible's the most provides the most holistic framework for understanding the problems of race in America. Yep. And it's like if that's if we believe that's true, we really our approach to dealing with these things need to be guided by God's word, yeah, not just our personal opinions or preferences. Yep. Because if we think like again, yeah, like I'm just not good at this or something like that, or I just don't really like this, I really do prefer worshiping in this style, this style, or I just I really like these people. Right. Because this is kind of my this is my my niche, you know. And I think that's for a lot of folk is I just got these people. This is who I'm rocking with, I already got community, I have relationships, and the idea of trying to have diverse relationships can feel overwhelming. And so I believe the Bible says it. And for some, you know, we deal with people who like a worship at a diverse church, yeah, but then my life is still very monoethnic. Yep. So again, how do you think? Let's say they do believe it. Let's say, okay, I've done the study, got the theology, I do believe it. But still, like my I could just feel like what do you think? What's stopping them? Once they they got the belief, but they still ain't moving to action.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Yeah, for sure. I think I'm gonna talk somebody's language, I think, what I'm about to say, but I feel like in certain, especially middle class, um, white evangelical spaces, one thing that's very focused on is this of is this component of sharing your testimony, or like, or in a small group space, or really saying, okay, how'd you come to meet the Lord and all these different things? And I think that's something that I think folks can actually lean into rather than try to push away from or ignore, is get around some different people and really like see how the Lord has worked in them. Um, and that may be like a conversation, like having a having a meeting, but it also could just be doing life with folks. Yeah, I'll never forget there's a person on staff with us that's that talks about um an experience she had um with uh we have a prayer gathering every week, and um, she was there and there was this woman there who was also on staff, a black woman, and she heard her pray, and there was this realization of wow, I I really can pray like that. I didn't even know I could pray like that. And I think those types of experiences only happen in cross-cultural spaces. Whenever you are in an environment where you can say, Well, wow, God, we've all walked different, different walks to get to this point, and I'm actually getting to see you and experience you differently based on the people that I'm around. Um, and God has worked uniquely cross-culturally uh for all of time, but I think you gotta you gotta do more than brush shoulders with people to actually see what it means to enjoy God and see God more through people. So it's like you just gotta have you it requires time.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Yeah, you know what I'm saying? I do, yeah. Intimate experiences. It's like in some ways, the person who's not growing or changing is because they're not growing or changing. It's like if you take a step, uh-huh. It's like to become a runner, to become a like you gotta take a little bit of a step, and then sometimes it's like, oh, I don't like this. Yeah, but it's also because you've never tried this. Correct. And not that I mean, I think the way the Lord orders things oftentimes, like you know, John Piper has the quote, we're we're most satisfied when God is most glorified. Yep. I do think that, although there can be certain aspects of following Jesus that are hard and almost against our nature because of our flesh.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

But I do think he has ordered other things as well to be enjoyed when we follow him. That like when we obey him, there's actually a joy attached to obedience. Yeah. And I think that you're saying is like that's the joy attached to the multi-ethnic obedience of being like it says in 1 Corinthians, all things to all people, and to enjoy God's diversity, even in 1 Corinthians 12. It's like there is a joy attached to it, yeah. But like for so many, they haven't experienced it. Right. Because they haven't been in a prayer group that's multi-ethnic, and you hear the lady cry out.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Yeah, yeah. You're like, dang. Right. It's like I didn't even know.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Yeah, and because it's a reflection on yourself to go, oh, maybe like the intimacy that's available to me is greater than I ever would have thought. Yeah. But I I get that becomes revealed through experience. For sure. And I think that's so true. Yeah. So you gotta get a little you gotta start tasting it. For sure. So you start taking some of those steps, practical steps. Yeah. And I would encourage put yourself in multi-ethnic spaces where people are sharing testimonies, people are being vulnerable, and where maybe you are the minority. Yeah. Because then for if you're white and you come into a space that's majority black, it's just more likely that you're gonna see blackness expressed in a greater fullness, yeah, or Asian, Asianness expressed in a greater fullness. Yeah, yeah. And so if you can get in those kind of spaces, you have a greater chance to experience that kind of stuff and be like, wow, and learn about God. Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Yeah, no, that's just good. That's so dope. I think um reminded of Ephesians 3 talking about the the manifold wisdom of God being revealed, and I think that is literally what we're talking about. It's like through through the the pursuing of this unity in the presence of not just diversity, but an inclusive environment that's not just going to deal with um and passively accept other cultures but uplift, is we get to actually see that manifold wisdom of God be revealed over and over and over and over again. Um, so I do think, yeah, and what to your point about the minority um for our uh white folks, just being being and positioning yourself to be the minority, um, there is a rare chance. Um, I know that there's circumstances, but there's a rare chance that um white folks have experienced that space um in any capacity, but especially like on a regular basis. Yeah. So I think to prioritize that will actually be very, very helpful. I'm not saying it's going to be easy by any means, but I think prioritizing that and actually trying to fight for that, um, not just to check something off in your brain, but to say, I want to experience God and I want to love his people and I want to be loved by his people. Yeah. So it's like that's why I'm trying to walk through this. Um, rather than it just feel like I need to checkbox. Because I think checkbox mentality can honestly hold a lot of people back too. Um church told me to do this, so I'm gonna go do it. Pastor said I should do this, I'm gonna go do it. And then it kind of goes, I checked the box, I'm done. And now I can go back to my comfortable group. I can go back to the people that I'm safe with, the people that I know won't challenge me or um have anything to say when I say something that's sideways. Um, so I think I think we we gotta we gotta break that. We gotta break that checkbox mindset and say, um, if you you brought it up and I'm just thinking about it, bro. Like it's it's when we think about, oh my goodness, I want to uh create more intimacy with God and I want to like I want to grow in my relationship with the Lord. We can we can hammer ourselves down talking about, and I love all these things, but like reading reading the scriptures and prayer um and generosity and doing all these different things, which I think all of those spiritual disciplines are great. But when we we think about these multicultural relationships, we don't think about how that actually affects our intimacy with God. Yeah, like it's like that actually builds our intimacy with God because we as we talked about, we just see him more and we see him more clearly and more honestly. His it he he becomes more grand. Like it's just like like God, you were you are bigger, you're bigger than I could have ever. No doubt.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

I do, and I think I think that a lot of Americans, kind of in different racial groups, have have bought a lie from the enemy on around what community is. Because we're looking for sameness. Oh, yeah. We are looking for people who think like us, who who feel the way we feel about things, but that's not the unity Jesus prayed for in John 17. And it's not it's not at all what Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 12. Yeah, like when he's talking about the body, his main point is you the body needs eyes, right? So if you're an eye, you need to express that part of yourself in the body. The body needs ears. Yep. And he goes, if we were all one part, where would the body be? Yet our churches are oftentimes, at least culturally, all one part. Yep. And so it's like, where is the body? Right. We are missing out on so much of what God wants to give to us because we're living in monoethnic spaces. For sure. And so, yeah, I'm like, we that's a lie from the enemy. Oh, yeah. It's it's segregation, for sure, ghettoization, honestly, of peoples. Yep. That causes us to limit and miss perspectives of how beautiful our God is. And so I do feel like we we need to take it that seriously in our pursuits to know, like, again, not only are we not obeying God, but we're missing out on who God is when we live mono ethnic and cultural lives. So it's like it is like how do we do it? One thing, because there is, it's like, yeah, and again, not to give to check boxes, but it's like reading stuff can be helpful and listening to the CQ podcast stuff that that that can be helpful, right? And I think people should do that, and even going, okay, if I'm gonna I'm gonna read, I like to read, so let me read this. I'm gonna listen to music, let me listen to this. I'm gonna watch shows, let me let me be intentional with that kind of stuff. Like, I think all that's dope and helpful, but but the real change comes through relationships. Yep. And I would I would argue too, and this is one I think is really important. The only way to grow, and the Lord taught me this later in life, is to cut. Yeah, like it is unrealistic for us to go, the Lord is like the Lord's calling me to do this, and this and this and this and this and this. And so then this and multi-ethnic is one of them, right? So he called me to pray, he called me to read my Bible, called me to share my faith, call me to be hospitable, yeah, and I and also to have diverse relationships. Okay, cool. So I got like 10 things I gotta do. Right. And then it's just like information overload. So I'm gonna give up. For sure. Absolutely. Yep, too much, too much. And so really I think you we have to go, what are the things in my life that don't need to be there? Yeah, it's not even that they're bad, they can be fine things, but like we have to really remove, I think, cut, prune if things are gonna be able to grow and be healthy. So I in one way is probably one of the best ways to grow is to go, what are the monocultural spaces you're in that you need to cut from your life and to create room. Because if you ain't hungry for relationships because you have so many relationships, monoculturally, you ain't gonna make diverse ones. Right. Because you already, how many relationships can we have? Right. We got a limit, we got a number, we're finite, we ain't no massia, like we can't know everybody. Right. We literally can't. God, I can hear all of us pray at the same time. I can only answer one call. No, literally, yeah. For real, nice. So it's like we gotta actually, and that's really tough because these are people. We're not just dealing with with things, but yeah, what you got?

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Yeah, I think I think the thing that um that I think about is it's interesting. I think about ass too, whenever you're talking, it's like there's this component of everybody bringing what they have so everybody has what they need. And I think whenever you whenever you easily you easily can I don't know, we can make ourselves messiahs all the time, especially when it comes to relationships or people that we're caring for or loving on and what it means to to put a limit to some of those monocultural relationships for for the sake not only of your own personal sanctification of the benefit, but really benefiting the whole body. It's like that you have to understand that like that relationship that you may give less time to, like, God will provide the means for that person to be cared for because it's not just on you. Um God will provide the the friends, like they'll be um you and you do all this stuff with love, obviously. But I think I think we kind of gotta undecenter ourselves in that way, you know, like still just kind of being like, Oh, like we can't, I can't do this, I can't cut this stuff. And we talk about this a lot in a work context, but um, if we ever Get to the position where we can't cut anything. We've obviously made ourselves too important in the things that we do or the people that we love. So I think similarly, I'd say, like, yeah, it's okay for those some of those relationships to have to shift. I had to do that in my own relationships. Um, I was trying to grow in my own uh my own cross-cultural competency and me just really exploring my own culture, and I had to sit down with a couple of my best friends. My some of my the best friends I got, two white homies from Clemson. And I wanted, I literally had to just say, hey, y'all, I need to create more space in my life to be around black men because I did not have I did not have these friendships um in the same way in these important years of my life, and I'm understanding the importance now. And no shade, you cannot do that for me. You know what I mean? Yeah, and it's like, and that's okay. Like, I think we still got all love, we still hang, but it's like there is gonna be a reordering and a restructuring because I feel like God has more for me. And I think that's the that's the thing, is like people being okay, and people don't like having conversations, like that's a whole different podcast about about hard conversations and shifting, shifting relationship dynamics because people don't like to communicate um and people don't like to tell the truth fully. So I think uh, like I said, a di a different tangent, but I think we got to be willing to have those conversations.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Yeah, I appreciate the courage that you're describing because it is courageous to be able to say those things based on what you believe the Lord's calling you to, based on what you need, decentering self, because even like when you throw the party, so often, like when we're with the center, interestingly enough, it feels like it's others centered, but I think it's us centered. Yeah. When we go, I I have to invite everybody because I want to make sure that they don't feel any kind of then we really it's us thinking we hold their feeling, we are responsible for all their feelings. Yep. So we have to invite everybody, and then if our life is chiefly monoethnic, all those people that we have to invite, because if we didn't invite them, right, their feelings are gonna be hurt, right? You know, have to come to the party. So there's no room to do something missional.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Oh, yep.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Because we have strap we because our life is so bound to these relationships, really because we've seen it ourselves. For sure. So I like how you described it, because it's just I think it requires a lot of courage to have those kind of conversations. And it is hard maybe the last thing to be the person who receives that conversation and to know because there's so much beauty in what we can offer each other, but there's also limits. And to be okay as a friend to go, I can give you what I can give you, but I can't give you more than I can give you.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

Like, so I I might not be able to do something for you, and that's okay. Yeah. It doesn't mean that we can't still be homies, it doesn't mean that we still aren't brothers. It doesn't mean that. Like that there can be difference, and that difference can also include lack of a lack of ability to provide something for you. For sure. That's okay, because I'm trusting that God's gonna do it for you. Yeah, and God's gonna do it for me.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Yeah, man. Um that level that level and that level of candor, to me at least, and I know I know you're like this, like that level of candor in relationships actually builds more intimacy, even though time might decrease. You know what I'm saying? That's good. Like somebody being able to really say, honestly, this is what I need, and somebody else being able to say, Well, this is all I got. Like, I think we are so uh against having these limitations that we just let these things kind of go on, go on, go on, and then they just kind of burn and sizzle, like all of a sudden you don't talk anymore. And it's like, no, like if we have honest conversations, we're able to actually walk in true intimacy um rather than feeling like, oh, I can't step on these toes.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

But man, that's good. Real talk for real growth. That's one of the values that CQ and there is, I don't know if you heard it, but there's like there's a subtle just emotional health piece running through this conversation. Oh, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, no doubt. No doubt. Nothing here, but uh we're gonna keep it short today. Yeah, for sure. And uh again, thanks for thanks for listening, everybody who's listening and CQ. We all will keep releasing podcasts. We got blogs, we do workshops. And so if you want to just engage in the journey or listen or anything like that, we'd love for you to reach out. But other than that, be blessed.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Be blessed.