Equal Outcome vs Equal Opportunity with Frank Legare | Ep. 11

In this episode Frank is back to discuss the reality that not everyone starts from the same place. So what does it mean to pursue justice, humility, and love in a world where some people face barriers others never have to consider?

We talk how Scripture shapes the way we think about equal opportunity, why awareness matters and what it looks like to lead with grace in conversations that are often anything but simple. You won’t want to miss this one!

Last episode of season 1

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

From the block to the boardroom, from the pulpit to the pew, the CQ podcast exists to help you raise your cultural fluidity. But it's gusting how culture touches everything from a Christian worldview. Just like a fish swims in water, we swim in culture. And today we're swimming with Frank Legree, ladies and gentlemen. Round two. How are you feeling?

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Good, man. Glad to be back.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Yeah, man. Excited. It's it's uh good to have you back on the CQ podcast and to get a chance to have, I think, what's gonna be a really good conversation today, where we're talking about uh really the tension between, or you could say the rightness of the veracity of equal opportunity versus equal outcome loaded. So we're gonna have it, we're gonna have it solved here. We're gonna solve, we're gonna solve decades, centuries maybe of debate. That's right. Right now. I can't wait.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Yeah, let's just go ahead and say we probably not do that today.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Sarcastic.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

But we're gonna try it. We're gonna do our best. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Um, before we define it and and talk a little bit about that, uh really this is your your idea. So I'd love to just hear uh some of how you you got to it and uh want to talk about this.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Yeah, and there really is a quick, very quick story. I was I was actually watching a show that I don't remember the name of, and there was a scene in this show where there was an affluent white woman, and she had a housekeeper, a black female housekeeper, and you knew from the show that the the housekeeper had been homeless at one point, she was living in her car with her kids, trying to get her life back on track. And she and this lady are having this heated conversation, and the white lady's trying to defend how she got where she got, and she says, I got here because I made good choices. And the black lady's response to her is it isn't that you made good choices, it's that you had good choices. And that struck me. Yeah, it was one of those like moments where it just took the veil off of some prejudicial thinking, some blind spots, and I kind of started thinking about what is that like when you don't have good choices? That's so good. When your life is is choosing between the lesser of two evils often, and what would you do? And so this idea of equal opportunity, equal outcome, and what does equal even mean? And when you say equal opportunity to me, that's very American. Like we automatically get behind that. You know, how can you not love the sound of equal opportunity? But what if the opportunities aren't really equal? Yeah. What if you think they are, but they're actually not? So then what is the place of equal outcome? And then ultimately, how do you look at that through a biblical grid and determine what's right?

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Absolutely. And I think one, you're such a good storyteller, Frank. Tell a good story. It well, and it's it's cool that moment, like you see it in media, and it causes causes you and us to reflect and go, okay, what does this really look like? And the tensions, the these tensions matter a lot, I think, because it's relating to how do we I mean, yeah, it's political and it's socioeconomic or socioeconomic and it's racial, but it but in some ways it's like, hey, do I give my kids the same opportunities? That's right. Or like, do I fight for them to have the same outcomes? What if they don't have the same outcomes? What does that mean? Does that mean I've done something wrong? And uh I I think it's it's a really healthy thing to think about what is equality, some of what we want to talk about, what's equality uh even mean biblically? What does favoritism or partiality mean? What what what are some of the systems and the structures that the Bible has set up at different times in redemptive historical history to help people? And how can we relate to it today? So we're you know, we're joking about solving all the things. It's also framed in a very, I think it's framed in a political way. Right. Right. And so we're we're entering into the way that it is framed, knowing that the Bible doesn't frame it that way. And so we're gonna talk through some of that. Let me define uh, you know, with our the help of uh ChatGPT. Yeah. Let me define or give a quick definition. Uh equal opportunity is uh or a definition, everyone should have equal access to pursue education, work, justice, and flourishing without arbitrary barriers. So in theory, everybody has the same opportunities to do things, right? So we're like we're not inhibiting people from uh being able to do particular things. Uh equal outcomes, though, society should produce roughly equal results across groups, often through redistribution or intervention. And, you know, the the idea that, okay, because we look at a particular types of groups and realize there's a wealth gap. Right. I think, I think between uh white Americans and black Americans, white households have between five to nine times more uh wealth accumulatively than black Americans. So you look at the you look at the gap and equal outcomes and say, okay, we need to do something to fix the gap. Right. Um and so, yeah, versus versus going, hey, does everybody have the same opportunity?

SPEAKER_00 5:08

That's right. Yeah. And I think speaking from a as a white man, speaking from a majority culture perspective, I think it's very easy in majority culture to look around and equal opportunity sounds right because you've always had equal opportunity. Well, what if you don't? Right. So it's this idea of of seeing for the first time that maybe everybody doesn't have the same opportunity. What you're told is equal isn't actually equal. And so if, and you and I talked about this in illustration of you know, a race and it's equal opportunity in the sense that anyone can come. Anybody can come and and they can start this race and they can finish this race. But what if there's a group of people that get told they have to start a mile back?

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

And they have to wear a weighted vest.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

You know, and they have to or or tie one hand behind their back. What that's not, yes, you can still say everybody had the opportunity to do it, but clearly that's not equal. And the outcome is not going to be equal. So what do you do? How do you look at those barriers, identify them, and then try to address them? Um, and that to me is is difficult to be. The first part is getting folks to recognize it's not as equal as you think.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Right. And I think to that illustration you used, and I think it's a it's a helpful illustration to think about disparities. And in particular in America, which is more individualistic in its Western worldview, there is uh I started from zero, right, and now I'm working myself, pulling myself up by the boot bootstraps, which is such a funny illustration. Because like, how could anyone actually pull their that's actually an impossible reality? Someone else has got to pull you up. But but in America, this individualistic idea of like, okay, here I'm starting from zero rather than I'm connected to an ancestry and a history to where I didn't start from zero because I had this particular type of education, my parents raised me in this how household income because they were raised in this way. And so then for many people, my parents bought my first house and those types of things. But that illustration of a race is so helpful. And to quantify it, like if you take when the first slaves came to the Americas in 1619, and then you go, okay, so when the country's founded 1776, and the abolition of slavery, 1865, and you go, There's no way anyone would say black people and white people were running the same race, though. Black people were not able to read, they were not able to be free in most parts of our country, these types of things, lots of inhibiting, and then freedom comes.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

So that's like, okay, now black people are like, we can race. Right. We can race. But to your point on the weighted vest, until the civil rights movement in 1965, so 1865 to 1965, another hundred years it's a weighted vest.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

And so, yeah, it really hasn't been equal. But if you see yourself of just like appearing on the map as an individual rather than collective to or attached to a collective, it's easier to think that we do have all the same opportunities, uh, because we're all here, you know, and you kind of look around and depending if you're in a more homogeneous space, you're like, yeah, y'all we all had that, especially from a majority perspective. Right.

unknown 8:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

And so I think think about that. And then if if equal outcome is the attempt to have an awareness of what those barriers are, and I think it is, and to try to remove those barriers. And I think each each of these sides, you have to recognize there's a strength and there are weaknesses to both. Yeah. But we do want to identify barriers, we do want to try to overcome barriers. I don't think equal outcome, if you took it to its extreme of just deciding that we will now fix these things. There's some problems inherent to that too. It could elevate a group over individuals, there's tokenism, there's some things that can come from that that I don't want either, right? So then it's this question of I don't think it's one or the other, but the both and, but how do we do that? How do we kind of synergize that rightly? And then, of course, for us as Christians, how do we let the Bible direct us? What does the Bible say? Because the Bible clearly has some things to say about this. Um, because really the whole notion to me of equal, they're borrowing from our worldview to get there anyway. Yeah, they're just they're just ripping off the Bible. Right. And they've gone in some wrong directions with it. But what does the Bible have to say about it?

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Yeah. And I think that's essential. Um, but I'm curious first, like how how if someone's thinking, okay, and I'm thinking about these realities, and even thinking about the the story or the show you were watching, and you kind of come to the realization, okay, is everybody's choices good? Maybe some people aren't picking between good and good. They're picking, they don't have those options. Like, how how how's someone gonna come to that realization that not everybody really has the same choices?

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Yeah, so much of that is I think we talk about you know, those things you'll say sometimes. I would never. I would never. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's good. And then it's always, if you're honest, I would never until I've faced. Right. You know, we've been watching this show called Outlast. It's one of these survival shows. And so you say a thing like, I would never eat no worms, you have never been starving. Yeah. When you're starving, you'll put a mouthful of those, yeah. You'll put a handful of those things in, right? Right. Um but to make this more raw, a mom who's facing my children are gonna starve if we don't have a roof. I would never sell myself to a man. I bet you would for your kids. Yeah. But you've never faced that. Right. So there's those things that are going on. What if you're in that situation where your options, both of them are bad? And you and then and then the choice you make just keeps you ingrained in a cycle of more bad choices. And so I think a lot of it is until you've faced it, you won't know. And so you say, okay, well, what do you to people that don't have to face that, what do you need to do? You need to find a way to see it.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Because I look around at, you know, at I I've noticed in Charleston here lately, you know, the answer to an area, if you're driving into Charleston and there's an area or community off the side of the road that doesn't look so nice, what do we do? We build a big old wall. So you don't have to see it. Well, that's that's the problem. I don't think most people want to see those realities because they know it's gonna alter their perspective. So you're gonna have to find a way to see some of that stuff, and you're gonna have to be willing when you do to say, I was wrong.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Yeah, I think it's a great word, Frank, because it's like seeing it, but then also taking the time to understand it. Right. Because quick quick sight and quick assessment creates poor judgments. Yes. And I think sometimes it's like, okay, you're there and you're kind of in and out, but you don't have deep relationships or relationships with people from different backgrounds or economic statuses. And so it's very easy to be like, yo, if you just Right. But it's funny, like as a dad, it's like you get older, or just really as someone who ages, you get older and all the times you have more sympathy to your parents. And especially if you do like the hard work of therapy counseling, you go back and you think about things, but then if you think about the stories of the people who raise you, you go, okay, so they like their the way I'm responding is in light of my upbringing, but the way they're responding is in light of their upbringing. That's right. You know what I mean? It's like we're kind of all r responding to our upbringing in a way, and I think sometimes we don't give enough consideration to if I was put into a different context, how might I actually I actually respond to your point? Right. Is I I would never unless. Right. And to really think, okay, if you were put into whatever that home, like how would you? And you're going, well, they just need to have better parents. But you're like, well, what home were they put in? Right, right. And you're like, well, see that there's a problem with this whole group. Well, what's the context of why there's the problem in America? I mean, slavery is at least a part of the answer. I'm not saying it's the totality of it, but it's like it's a it's a part of the answer of what has got us there. And there's a bunch of other factors redlining whatever, you know, and just general discriminatory practices. But I do think it's helpful. And and what to your point on the Bible, the Bible is written. Um, one of the books I've been looking back at is Misreading Scripture Through Individualistic Eyes. Such a good read. And its whole point is to prove that the Bible is written, the human authors of the Bible are all writing from a collectivist perspective. They're all writing from not a Western worldview that's individualistic. They're all writing from one that sees us as attached to a group of people and our history having everything to do with us. And I was reading Daniel back through, and there's this prayer in Daniel 9. It's a powerful prayer. But Daniel, who the the narrative account of Daniel is he's pretty spotless. Like you don't see a lot of stuff Daniel does bad. Right. Um, but then in in chapter nine, he has this prayer where he is lamenting where Israel is and how Israel got itself there. And the whole time he's saying we. He is including himself in the transgressions of Israel, even though we don't have a count of him participating in it. And some of it was clearly before of his time, but he still sees it as collective. And I think an individualistic mindset is more easily, can more easily say, yeah, equal, equal opportunity, equal opportunity, we're good. But I think when you have a more collectivist mindset, you see, okay, we have to do some things to address systemic problems that have existed generationally that get us to where we are so that people don't because people don't have the same choices.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

That's right. So it you're right. And there's a lot of layers to that, and it goes farther back. It's like the idea of taking a short-term mission trip, you know, going somewhere for a week and thinking you're now, you know, you kind of come back and suddenly, you know, there's they picked up an accent or they're wearing these t-shirts or they're doing these, and you're just like, You don't know nothing about that girl. You were there for a week. Yeah, you're there for a week. And I'm glad you got your eyes open, but you don't know. You were there for a week, and you were there always knowing you were getting out. Yeah. So what is that? So we can't recreate that. That can't be the goal. But I think you're right. If you're willing to put in the work and spend the time to be a learner, to go in humble, to, to get around folks and to get stories and to learn, you can eventually come to at least have a better understanding of it and then become part, I think, part of the solution.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

If you had to go, here's some of the, from my biblical worldview, the best you can assess. Here's some of the problems with equal opportunity, but here's some of the problems with equal outcomes. What might you say?

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Yeah, I think when I look at, you know, because equal opportunity, we we would all agree that someone coming into our church, do I want them to know that they are equally welcome, equally loved, equally discipled, um, equal opportunity to be used in accordance with spiritual gifts. But right there you've already got an issue because gifts aren't given equally, are they? No. So that's an issue right there. That is an issue. So we so we know. So when I look at some of those things, like even biblically, I look at equal opportunity, and I can tell you everything isn't gonna be equal. Same thing with heaven. I'm not gonna be equally rewarded in heaven. You know, I believe that there's 12 thrones I'll never sit on. Those aren't for me. Yeah, those are for somebody else, right? So when I look at so it's not in its strictest form, it doesn't quite line up with scripture, and we're gonna need to know that. But we do want folks coming in to understand that we are looking at you and we want you to have access to this. And we want to try to think through how we do that. Because what we sang a hymn yesterday, as an old hymn, that um just it was part of my growing up, and I just immediately found myself in that hymn because it's part of my tradition. Yeah, and I'm proud of it, and I love it, right? But what I know now is is there's probably somebody in here who's having a harder time with this one because that's not tapping in to their thing. And I love that tension. Yeah. Because in the next one, I might be the uncomfortable one, and it's like it's just my turn, you know, and that's okay. Um, but I think if if you you could almost see somebody out there to go to equal outcome saying, all right, let's say we've got a multi-ethnic context in our church and we're sort of, you know, represented with whites and blacks and Hispanics and Asians, but all this. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna try to achieve 25% representation in everything we do. You're never gonna do it. You're not gonna be able to do it. And if you did do it, I'd probably tell you you mess some stuff up. Because it just, you know, there's gonna be some restrictions because the Bible puts some restrictions on some of those things. And so I think there's a tension that you have to fight for here. But what I do think, and again, in our perspective, in our church perspective, in a multi-ethnic perspective, there is a place where you're going to have to find a more equal representation for buy-in. You're gonna have to have it. There's no way around that. But I think that's for folks, majority culture folks, and I will speak for them because these are the conversations they have when they're whispering. They look and well, what does that mean? You know, is it is is this gonna be affirmative action in the church? Right? That's what they'll say. Are we just gonna put some that's the way that conversation goes because there's not an understanding of what's trying to be done? Yeah. What's the bigger picture? What's the goal? Yeah. So I I think those are some of the tension points that I see. And I think again, both sides can err, which is why you need the Bible to keep it straight.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Yeah, that's a good word. And I to one of the points of coming into the church context, I think the awareness of, and you we've talked about this before, the awareness of the cultural grounding of any element.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

So to your point, if you're in a majority, really any context, and you're like, well, we would love, like, you know, you're black church, we would love white people coming. You know, you a white church, we love black people coming. Right. And they roll up, and it's like, yeah, black people come, and it's a white church, and it's a white church. So you so you are doing things white ways. But I'll I think the the thing that can be challenging, I actually think more for a majority culture is just to understand the cultural grounding that you come from. Like I think most minority cultures understand that there's a distinction to how we do things because we see the contrast in the majority culture, but uh a weakness in a majority culture oftentimes is unless you spent significant times in majority or minority at context, you're not always aware that your stuff has culture.

unknown 20:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Like that there is a white cultural way, not not wrong. Right. Just that it's a white cultural yeah. Yeah. And so you're not aware that there could be things you're doing culturally that is inhibiting somebody else, or you start to ascribe applications of scripture to be pure a cultural, doesn't have again, doesn't have a culture. This is this is just the way you teach the Bible. There's no culture. This is just the way you do community. There's no culture. This is the way you do, there's no culture to this. And um, this is not true or authentic.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

It's not true. And I think sometimes, to take it a step further, I think sometimes uh majority culture thinks that a no culture approach is a virtue instead of a vice.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

I completely agree.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

They think they're leveling it out. Oh, wait, no culture. No, that's a vice. That's not a virtue. There is culture, and you have one and celebrate it. Yeah. But look around and notice that there are others and notice. I mean, I think of something as simple as churches that I grew up in where the worship expression, no pastor ever got in the pulpit and said, Don't raise your hands, don't be vocal. But nobody raised their hands and nobody was vocal. It was part of that culture. I'm not here to say that that's necessarily wrong, but what I am here to say is that if somebody from a minority culture came into that church, that would inhibit their worship.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

They would feel inhibited. So do they now have equal access to a worship experience and worship opportunity? I don't think so. And again, so so there's just there's there's tensions here without necessarily saying one is is wrong, but how if we look around and if what and I believe what we're trying to do is see a church that reflects kingdom, and we're about family, and that's a big biblical idea the family of God. How do families work? There's give and take in family.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Um, so just looking around to See what those obstacles are. And getting other people to help you with your blind spots because we've all got them.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

We do.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

So you need those folks who can say, man, you're doing great, but you do know you're still missing this and this. Right. Oh, and that's forever. I am. That's forever. Exactly. That's forever.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Uh yeah, I have a couple thoughts. One is uh we like to say equality doesn't mean sameness.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Yes. And you know, I very much believe that all people are made in the image of God. That's what the Bible teaches in Genesis. And so that means we are equal in value, work, dignity, and significance. Like, like God does not look at us and love one of us more than the other person. Bear his image, we're all his kids. The same way you look at kids and you love your kids. Like God looks at us and he loves us. But the disposition or sorry, distribution to your point of his gifts vary. Yeah. Right. And and and the way in which we're to walk out our faith can can vary. That's true in to your point, 1 Corinthians chapter 12, the gifts. But then even faith in Romans chapter 12. Right. Yes. It talks about that we have different dispositions of faith, distributions of faith, and we're going to be held accountable for how we steward faith. Or you think about the parable of the talents in Matthew chapter 20, or the bags in Matthew chapter 25. He gives different people different amounts of bags. And it's not because he loves one more than the other. It's just, it's just the way he's made things. That's right. And so we do have different amounts of things, and and then and we're held accountable for it. And so in some ways, if we have more money, we're held accountable differently for our money and how we steward it. If we have different gifts, we're held accountable differently for those things. And so I think that it's not really accurate to pretend like we all have equal, like we all ever have will have equal opportunity. Like that's just not ever going to be a thing. It doesn't mean we don't advocate to try to create spaces that are good. That's not all important. Right. It's just that that's not how it is. And then in regards to equal outcome, it is interesting. Like if you look at the Bible and you see the way God tends towards the vulnerable, right? Like theologians call call it the vulnerable quartet, particularly in the Old Testament, of the people groups that God is uniquely tending towards, right? So you got the orphan, you got the widow, you got the sojourner, and the poor. And God is uniquely oriented towards those people, so much so that when his people are harvesting their crops, he's like, don't do the edges. That is for the poor, the sojourner. Like that is theirs. And it's interesting because it means yours isn't yours now.

unknown 24:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

You know, the thing, and and that's where it's like we're all we're all stewards. Yeah. I was listening to a thing on Ecclesiastes, and I really liked it. Because it basically he was comporing our relationships to things like the library. Like you you go, you have a good experience, you check out a book, but you always gotta bring it back. Right. But you have joy checking out the book, but you always gotta return it because it's not it's not yours. That's right. And it's true. It's like everything we have is like we've just checked it out from the library. That's right. You know, we can enjoy it for a while, but we there's gonna be a time where you have God is yours. And so I think that's true too, is like our stuff in regards to we should warn a person whom we really know didn't have the equal opportunity, vulnerable quartet. In our country, I think it is the minority to uh other groups too, but the minority, including from the poor widow, orphan. But to say we did we should have, and the Bible has had different systems of of economics, even going, I'm relating differently to this person because they have not had the same opportunity. So I'm fighting for them. I'm giving them a disproportionate now disposition of grace or love or care to help them get to a place that they are not. So I like I'm tending for them. And it's like you go to the you go to the hospital, everybody gets a blank, a blanket, but somebody who's more sick might get an antibiotic.

unknown 26:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

It's like you do we're not we're not gonna treat everybody equal in that sense of equality, meaning sameness. We need to treat them with with difference. And even like our kids, like, I'm like, yo, my kids need different things.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

They do.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Like I can't treat them all the same. That would be really bad. That would be really bad. And it's so frustrating for them because they like sometimes they wanna be they want to have what the other one has, and and all that kind of jealousy creeps in and covetedness, and you've got to create space to go, no, it's okay for you to be you, if you'll be you. And mom and dad might need to spend more time with this kid around this thing for a season, and that's gotta be okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Yeah, I think you're right, because I had kids are great, such a great expression because we can see this notion of equity is hardwired into children. It is, it is hardwired into children, and it is it is followed. I mean, this idea I've got there are three flew into my house right now on my refrigerator. There are three ledgers for each of my children. They get gold stars for certain things that they do. And it is Teaching Works Righteousness. Yeah. No, come on, man. I was just gonna say so they're there, and undoubtedly, when one of them gets to five and is getting their treat, the other ones are complaining and want to know why they're not getting something. And I point them to that ledger and say, because you had two and three. Yeah, they have done this, you know, but they are just convinced that that's not fair and everything has to be fair. So part of that lesson is not only some reward, but it's also just trying to teach my children that the outcomes are not gonna be fair in life. There's a lot of things that are not gonna be fair.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Yeah, and that's interesting too, because it is like to your point on what does the Bible teach? And as you try to harmonize the biblical worldview, there there is like a you're gonna give an account for what you've been entrusted with. That that isn't I don't know where I would put it in regards to equal opportunity or equal outcome, because it's like you've been given something, and then you're gonna give an account for that thing, right? Like whatever situation you were born into. And to your kids, it's like you've how have you done whatever that that's like you're gonna give an account for that, and that's a part of it. And then there's times in which the Bible goes, okay, Acts 6. There's we have widows, widows are in a precarious situation, especially in the first century, because of how men are seen as like the breadwinners differently than they are now. It's like, so how does the church care for widows? And so we're gonna have a whole ministry. This is the first deacons get instituted in Acts 6. Yeah, because of widows. And so it's like we're not treating them equally, we're we're recognizing that in light of the economic system, you know, that's happening even that was in Jerusalem, um, and how women can't aren't afforded the same opportunities, particularly if they're widows, we're gonna care for them uniquely. And so that's more like outcome, you know, and and I don't know if it's to get them into the same place, but is to recognize their vulnerability and try to care for them.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

To see the barrier and try to overcome the barrier.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

And try to overcome the barrier.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

And and when I look at I mean Jesus' ministry on the whole, really was I mean, you could even go as far as to use the word preferential. He was looking around for folks that were hurting, he was looking around for the the poor, the blind, the lame, the sick, all of those those things and all of those groups, and he leaned into them in a certain way. It didn't it didn't mean that he didn't rub shoulders with folks who had position and and access. I think about Nicodemus or some of these stories, but in the main, where do you see Jesus going? What do you see him doing? And he's leaning into these things and he's trying to overcome. I think the Samaritan woman isn't just another great example because it's really hard for us to see all of the racial, cultural, historical static in that story. But it's I mean, it's big time. Male Jewish rabbi talking to Samaritan woman. It's as as tense as it can get. You know, almost to the point that I wonder, it's not, you know, it's not in the story. I'm not trying to add, but I just I wonder if when he first said, Can I have a drink, if she didn't even answer him because she just assumed he can't be talking to me, right? But she's the only one there. Yeah. But she would have been floored that he's asking her for help. Yeah. But what is that about? Jesus having a conversation with one woman to win her so she could go back and grab a village and get them. That's Jesus saying, I'm gonna overcome these barriers. Right. I don't care about these barriers. These walls, Ephesians 2, I'm gonna bring them down. This is bark. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

No, that's so good. I think it is. It's I think it's a tension, and we're maybe trying to say again, it's not that there's this answer or that answer, but if you look at the just if you flo follow the flow then of scripture and you look at different moments, you really do see like being treat people being treated differently based on different struggles or problems or strengths.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

And um, but also there's an a shared accountability. It's not like it's not like you're gonna give no account. It's like no, everybody's gonna give an account. And so I think again, the tension, and maybe a challenge to anybody listening, is don't let the world always frame your question. Like a frame the tension. Like go to the scriptures and really try to ask it, and it can really inform your worldview about how you approach these things. And don't, and I I think one thing that we can be prone to do, and I can be prone to do at different times, is if I have a bias or a presupposition that I'm not really aware of, or maybe I am, and I read to the scriptures, sometimes I just try to make them fit what I want it to say. And so I just go to the passages that affirm my belief rather than looking at the ones that would create tension. Right. And I think in some ways, both of those, both of those views like kind of create right. Like if you just look, if you just go, okay, equal opportunity, like is God making sure we all are at the same place at the end of glo at the end of time? It's like, no. Right. We're not all gonna be, we're not all gonna be at the same place. That's right. Um, but if we go, okay, it's like it's just about equal opportunity, and then we all based on our own merit get to a particular It's like no, like have you heard have we heard of grace?

unknown 32:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

It's like we all need unmerited favor, undeserved gifts given to us, or we would not be anywhere. Like I could not be anywhere apart from the grace of God unto me. Like I am like a Christian worldview is I deserve hell. You know, I I I deserve to be rejected by God. I it's nothing but grace. I'm the chief of all sinners, right? And so there really is tension for both worldviews in the scripture, but also grace to where I think, to your point, applying some of the principles, I think really helps us live together cross-ethnically and culturally much better than we will if we're not aware of some of these things.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

No, I I agree with that. And I think if if you come, if we start coming back, just like you said, and instead of looking at equal opportunity, equal outcomes, just as they exist, as again as social political constructs and coming to the Bible and saying, we want to start where the Bible starts. So we want to start with the Imago Day, we want to start with the image of God, we want to start with that thing that tells us all that we have that dignity. Yeah, that we all have that. That's a great starting point. We want to think about does James 2 say anything about partiality in the church? It most certainly does. We want to think about that. Um, we want to think about Ephesians 4. We want to think about the those walls, those barriers that have been been torn down, but again, not not a wall that has come down between peoples that says now we can tolerate each other, but that we will love each other. Yeah. That has to be that binding thing. And so then it's Philippians 2. And it's if I'm if I'm coming at you always, my brother, regardless of where you come from, background, whatever it is, if I come to you with a mindset that says you first, yeah, you for you must increase, I must decrease.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

That changes something. It does. And even the Philippians do like think of your think of others better than yourself, you first. It's like that is the mindset to live in multi-ethnic space. That's it. Like that's the mindset we all have to have to live in multi-ethnic space. Because you will, to your point with worship earlier, we're constantly not getting what we want. No. And you have to be okay with that, and you have to be okay with it, and to realize like that's one of the that that's one of the most sanctifying experiences. Like if we're at a church where you're getting everything you want, I talk to people sometimes about this pastorally, is like you need to be at a church with sinners. I mean, praise God, that's every church. Right. But like the awareness that you need to be at a church with sinners, because if you're not, or if you're trying to just find people who make you feel good, or your picture of community is one where you like you all get along and and and not just in a uh I mean, like your picture of community is like, man, we're just like rubbing shoulders and we're holding each other accountable and we're pushing each other on, and your year of community isn't, man, this person really annoys me a lot. Right. Like I'm very bothered by him.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Then you're gonna miss out that that's actually God's gonna sanctify you by the person you're very bothered by. Yes. Because that's that's the thing you have to realize. I have to bless my enemy. Yeah, that's enemy is a strong word, but I have to bless the person I'm bothered by, not curse them. Yeah, like it's gonna, it's gonna prick my prejudice, it's gonna make me prone to gossip, and then I'm dealt, I'm forced to deal with my flesh that wants to gossip. You know, that that then if they if I'm in a church with sinners, they've sinned against me and now I'm forced to forgive. It's like I that's the only way. That's right. Like that's what church is. And you get more of that when you're in a diver, I don't even like this song though. Right. Or why is everybody dancing like this? Right. Or like, why aren't these people being as being uh uh as expressive in their worship? Right. Do they not love God? Do they not know the Holy Spirit? You know, like they must not because they ain't moved like I moved. I know, you know, like like if you're in those places, you're forced to wrestle with our own natural inclinations that then kind of expose things, and and that's what I love and hate about multi-ethnic church.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

Yeah, it's harder, it's hard, it's just harder, and I think you're right. And I I think to take it a step further, what we're saying here about being okay with it not being all about me. I want to come by God's grace to a place where it's my joy for it not to be all about me. Yeah. To get to that place of sanctification where, you know, think about Paul saying, I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings. That's the weirdest phrase. That is, man. Who wants to be in the suffering club? But Paul did, because what Paul said was every time I suffer, it draws me closer to Jesus. It helps me know him better. So if I want to be in, so now when it's not my turn, when I'm not getting my way, rather than just being okay, I want to look around and celebrate the joy on the faces of the ones who are that this is their song. This is their jam. And I'm just watching them going, this is great. This is great. And I'm gonna do my best to adopt this and figure this out and see what this looks like. And so I think that is the process, and it is much harder in the context that we're in. You have to fight for it. And it takes a family and a family mindset, it takes constant work. You will mess up a lot. Yeah, you're also gonna have to learn how to ask forgiveness. You know, that those are the things that are gonna happen, right? But you're just gonna keep going. And I think lastly, I might say understanding that we're not gonna arrive until glory, but we're striving you know, every day. Um, ten years from now, Grace Heater will still be working through things, and we'll still be saying, all right, what else can we do? You know, so if we're still here. If we're still here, I know. Yeah, that that view, that was that was uh that was good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Um, yeah, I think just kind of even as we're wrapping up to encourage folk to go, you know, equal opportunity, equal outcome. I think one of the things we're saying is maybe it's not so much that we're advocating for one answer, but to just go put put your preferences aside and be f and be advocating for the benefit of your fellow man. Yep. And be be joyous if you get to Philippians to lay down your privileges for the flourishing of somebody else. And that that is the Christian I think it is the Christian way to think about these types of things is less protective and having less of a scarcity mindset because we have an abundant God. And yeah, to advocate for those to advocate for for those things.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

That's right. So yeah, and I would say if you find yourself in perhaps you're in the the demographic, the culture, the setting that has more opportunity. Fight to see those who don't. Fight to see the barriers and get in the fight of overcoming those barriers. Get in that fight, engage in that, be mindful of that, learn about that, strive for that for your brothers and sisters.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

Let's go, Frank.

unknown 39:44

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

I appreciate it, man. It was a good conversation. Uh, as always, uh CQ podcast, CQ Initiative, though. We offer workshops, though, for churches and nonprofits, faith-based leaders, any kind of organizations. Uh, we have podcasts, which you're listening to, and then uh blogs. So Frank just wrote a recent article about Y Juneteenth, which is really good. Yeah. Thankfully to publish that. So as always, love for you to engage anyway. Uh, but good conversation, Frank. Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Glad to be here. Thanks, Robin.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Will Plunk here, executive director of the CQ Initiative. Just want to say if you've been listening to the podcast, thank you. If you've left a review, shared an episode, or join the conversation anyway. It's been an incredible journey. And our hope has always been simple to help followers of Jesus in particular to grow in cultural fluency, to deepen relationships across difference, and be equipped to be able to engage God's diverse world, not just with information, but with transformation. But we are officially wrapping up season one. Don't worry though, if you've been a regular listener or engaging with the work, we're just getting started. We're going to take a short break and then we'll be back with season two. We've got some exciting conversations in the works, featuring some new guests with fresh perspectives, as well as some familiar voices returning to continue conversations. So I hope season one helped you think differently, love your neighbor more intentionally, or gave you language for conversations you've been trying to have. Uh, and as you're thinking, uh, would love for you to do us a favor, share a podcast with a friend, um, or share the resources, engage with the website and the blog. Thank you for being a part of the community. Keep growing, keep listening, keep leading with humility and courage, and we'll see you for season two.