Freedom of Thought by Humanists International

Inside The 2025 Freedom Of Thought Report & Blasphemy Laws with Mubarak Bala

• Humanise Live • Season 1 • Episode 2

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 45:19

Sign up for the Humanists International Newsletter

This week's podcast coincides with the publication of the 2025 Freedom of Thought Report, Humanists International’s flagship annual study tracking discrimination and persecution faced by people because of their belief, or lack of belief. We preview key findings from the 2025 edition and discuss wider global trends, including democratic backsliding, religious nationalism, and the instrumentalisation of “religious freedom” to undermine universal human rights.

We are also joined by Mubarak Bala, human rights activist and President of the Humanist Association of Nigeria, whose imprisonment became a global symbol in the struggle for freedom of thought.

In this episode, we cover

  • What the Freedom of Thought Report is, and how it is compiled
  • Why the report is used in advocacy at the UN and other international institutions
  • The 2025 Key Countries spotlight and what it reveals (Bangladesh, El Salvador, Georgia, Kenya, Lebanon, Malaysia, Malta, Myanmar, Sudan, and the USA) 
  • The rise of authoritarianism and how governments use religion to justify repression 
  • Blasphemy laws and how they chill freedom of expression and endanger minorities
  • Mubarak Bala’s story, advocacy today, and why international solidarity still matters 

Further reading and references

Follow Humanist International

This podcast is produced by Humanise Live.

Start your podcast today, visit: humanise.live


🎶Music: Horizon by Simon Folwar

Podcast transcripts are AI-generated and may contain errors or omissions. They are provided to make our content more accessible, but should not be considered a fully accurate record of the conversation.

Introducing the 2025 Freedom of Thought Report

Gary McLelland

Welcome to Freedom of Thought, a podcast by Humanist International. With me, Leon Langdon. And me, Gary McLelland.

What The Report Is And Why It Matters

Gary McLelland

This episode coincides with the publication of the 2025 Freedom of Thought Report, Humanist International's flagship annual study. The report is a unique global survey documenting discrimination and persecution faced by people because of their belief or lack of belief, assessing countries worldwide on human rights protections and the right to freedom of religion, belief, thought, and conscience. In this episode, we'll preview the 2025 report's key findings and focus countries. We're also honored to be joined by Mubarak Bala, a globally recognized human rights activist whose courage in the face of imprisonment has become a powerful symbol in the fight for freedom of thought.

Leon Langdon

Gary, explain to our listeners what is the Freedom of Thought Report.

Gary McLelland

So the Freedom of Thought Report began 14 years ago in 2012. Initially, actually, the report came about through a collaboration with Humanists International, the American Humanist Association, and the US State Department. It was originally put together as a one-off report. And one of the people who was actually key in bringing this first report together was Maggie Ardienti, our current president. Back then she was working for the American Humanist Association. So the first report was really a desktop report of a few select countries prepared with some help from the US State Department to look in particular at the persecution and discrimination faced by humanists, atheists, and other non-religious people. Since then, of course, it's evolved into a global report, which takes place over a number of cycles. I think it was in 2014 or 2015 that we launched the online edition, which gives people access to all of the underlying data, the way that we actually compile the report. So it's all completely open access, the Creative Commons licenses. So yeah, it's evolved into a really significant part of our research and advocacy output.

Leon Langdon

Yeah, I think it's a really important tool for us on the advocacy side. I mean, we go to the United Nations and we go to international institutions advocating for humanists, for atheists, and for the right to freedom of religion or belief for all. And the fact that we're in a position to point to research done in-house, but also to the experience of our members, which obviously informs the research, I think is an incredibly useful tool. And it's one that consistently gets incredible reception from policy makers, from politicians, from other MGOs and different stakeholders. And it's one that I think deserves probably more publication and more kind of forwarding than we actually probably do.

Building A Global Evidence Base - How The Research Works

Gary McLelland

Yeah, I think you're totally right. There's very few organizations, especially organizations that are the of the modest size and resources as Humanists International, which are able to do a full global report on every country in the world analyzing the law and policy as it relates to freedom of religion or belief. I mean, it's really an amazing resource. And as you say, we've received amazing quotes from or citations from UN special rapporteurs, from parliamentarians all around the world. We've been cited in the Washington Post and The Guardian and The Times and many other media outlets. So it's a really amazing uh resource that I think hopefully through this podcast and other means we're able to really utilize and communicate the effectiveness and the value of it. But maybe you want to tell us a bit more about kind of how the report works, Leon, and what goes on behind the scenes to pull it together?

Policy Shifts, Rise Of Nationalism and Rights Clashes

Leon Langdon

Yeah. Well, we have an incredible research team behind the report, as well as, as I mentioned already, the the assistance and the work of our members to give that in-country experience, as well as looking at the the right to freedom of religion or belief, and particularly how it pertains to atheists and humanists and all minorities or religion and religious and belief minorities. It also looks at the intersection of those rights. So, for example, it has a gender lens, it looks at children's rights and the ways that that the right to freedom of religion or belief or religion, for example, can be instrumentalized through, for example, harmful traditional practices like female general mutilation or witchcraft, how those practices can can undermine women's rights and the right to freedom of religion or belief for all and and universal human rights for all. As you mentioned, it's sort of cyclical because it is a small team, a small but incredible team behind it. And so every every about four to five years, if I'm not mistaken, every country is updated. And then what we have the privilege of launching in Brussels this week is the key countries edition. Eric, who we'll talk to later, has been incredible, help with that in writing the foreword and we'll be speaking in in Brussels. But the key countries edition, what it does is it takes a snapshot of countries around the world. So of those that are updated annually, it'll look at some of them. So this year we'll have Bangladesh, El Salvador, Georgia, Kenya, Lebanon, Malaysia, Malta, Myanmar, Sudan, and the United States, which will be covered in in full detail in that report. I think there's a really interesting geographic scope there, as well as obviously a scope for majority religions in each of those places and also the different kind of religious minorities present in each of those. And you know, in many of those countries, we have humanists and atheists who have informed that report.

Gary McLelland

Yeah. And as you say, when this podcast goes live on the 25th of February, we'll be in Brussels for the launch event, which will be taking place at the Brussels Press Club. And we'll be having an MEP, someone from the European External Action Service, and a number of other panelists to help us unpack the findings of the Freedom of Thought report. But maybe it's just helpful for you and I just to pick through some of the top-level findings of the report. Thinking back to what we discussed last week with the IRF summit in Washington, and I think one of the things that really stands out for me is the shift in policy that we've seen from the United States. Traditionally, at least internationally, a very strong ally of freedom of religion or belief efforts. I'm thinking in particular about their many engagements at the United Nations on the anti-blasphemy proposals. But we've really seen quite a big shift from the United States, a very big turn away from the international UN system to a much more insular focus on their foreign policy developments.

Leon Langdon

What do you think about that? I agree in in some respects, but I push back in others. I think what we've seen is less so withdrawal from the international sphere, but more so from the multilateral sphere. I think the US is still very interested in international politics. I mean, look at its actions in in Venezuela, in Iran, in Nigeria in the last two months off the top of my head, plus, you know, its interest in Greenland. I mean, that's just really tip of the iceberg. But I think it's a lot less interested in being involved in multilateral fora. It's also a lot less interested in exactly what you're pointing out, which is the international human rights framework. So I think to say that it's pure US isolationism and US withdrawal from the international sphere, I think is an oversimplification. But actually what we see is the US is still acting internationally, but is very much doing so using the sort of might as right framework throwing its weight around, using sanctions, using tariffs, obviously using kinetic force where it wants to, and it's not coming to the table in the way that it used to. It's not leading human rights council resolutions like it used to. Um and I think that's the big, the big shift that we see. But also I think to say that it's just the US would unfortunately also oversimplify the issue. I think we see a rise in religious nationalism, religious-supported nationalism. We see a rise in, I don't want to say authoritarianism, but definitely a decline in the rule of law that would hint at authoritarian tendencies in terms of countries where the judiciary is less free than it once was, where there is additional scapegoating of minorities. Humanists and atheists are one of those minorities in many places, but also migrants, also LGBTI plus persons, women trying to exercise their reproductive rights. I think the human rights sphere is is struggling at the moment. I mean, both both the sort of high-level policy of human rights, I think is is under str under threat, but also people in terms of accessing their human rights, I think that is that is also under threat.

Gary McLelland

Yeah. And one of the other, I think, trends that we can see um in this year's report is really a big emphasis, like you just said, there, on the idea that religious freedom trumps LGBTI plus rights or women's rights or other minority rights and a kind of grandstanding of religious freedom over the rights of other intersectional human rights issues. And this again, I think for me is a very big cause of concern. We talked again before about the previous uh US-led summits on international religious freedom, as they call it. But even those in the previous years under the first Trump administration included an acknowledgement that there is tensions or intersections between LGBTI rights and women's rights, and that these have to be considered carefully and in the round. But this does seem to have given way to a kind of very essentialist interpretation of religious freedom.

Defending Belief Rights in Law

Leon Langdon

Yeah, I agree. I mean, we see it again, not just in the US, but also in Europe, at the European Court of Human Rights. The arguments being made are exactly that, that that dominant religious norms should trump individual human rights, which is not what human rights law says. But also we have concerns in many places, particularly where we have members, I mean, of the countries that are going to be in the in the key countries edition, even Myanmar comes to mind, where religious-motivated nationalism is very much a part of it, as well as other dynamics, of course. These these seldom happen in isolation. But I I do agree that this sort of instrumentalization of the right to freedom of religion or belief is is is a really worrying trend. And it's one that that is is spotlighted in the report, but also one that we we're trying to do what we can to counter on the advocacy side at international institutions and also arm our members with the language and the knowledge to counter this, to work with policymakers in their countries to to really ensure that the right to freedom of religion or belief for all can be realized, but also that universal human rights can be realized, not just the rights of of humanists and atheists, but as you say, of of diverse backgrounds, LGBTI plus individuals, women, children, all of those rights are stand to be under threat when this kind of rhetoric is to the fore.

Gary McLelland

Yeah. And I think it's worth saying, I mean, you you mentioned it there, but um international law and policy very clearly defends the rights of people who are humanist, atheist, non-religious, who want to change religion, leave religion. International human rights law absolutely protects those people. And I think we have to be very clear about standing up for that principle. Um, you know, it's been said in the past that one of the things that we want to encourage people to do when they're at national Forbes meetings or any kind of conference or meeting with governments is to stand up for the full title of freedom of religion or belief, with the knowledge that belief includes us, humanists, atheists, non-religious people, and minority beliefs, people who want to change their beliefs, apostates and so on. And I think we have to be very careful not to cede any ground here and give in to the idea that religious freedom is something that belongs only to religious people or even to religious organizations or dare I say beliefs themselves, you know, that human rights belong to people, and people have the human right to have humanist beliefs, non-religious beliefs, to express them within the confines of the law. And I think that's a really important thing that we cannot let slip past in this time of challenge.

Leon Langdon

I think it's important for us to realize who our allies are in that fight as well. And unfortunately, it is a fight, it is a struggle, as we've just laid out at the moment. But we we have plenty of allies who recognize exactly that, that the B in Forb includes the right to non-belief and the right to be humanist or or to not hold a theistic belief. Just yesterday evening, I was I had the privilege of speaking on a panel to mark the Coptic Church's contemporary Martyrs Day. And I think it was a really poignant event, and there was speakers from the Yazidi community, there were speakers from on on behalf of the Rohingya community in Myanmar, speakers on behalf of Christians as well as Coptic Christians, descendants of Holocaust survivors. It was a really poignant event, and it was a real privilege to speak out and to highlight humanists and secular activists who've been persecuted and killed for their beliefs and for their activities. I had the privilege of spotlighting Abjeet Roy and the secular bloggers in Bangladesh, who, several of whom were killed between 2013 and 2016 in a spate of horrendous violence. But I think it was a really poignant moment for many from different faith and belief communities to come together and to recognize that yes, the right to freedom of religion or belief protects everyone, protects everyone regardless of what they believe, and similarly protects, you know, no one should die, no one should be killed for what they what they believe, divine or otherwise. And and to have to have that invite from from the Coptic Church, from the archbishop to speak at that event was was quite was quite lovely in terms of you know recognition that that there is a sort of shared there's a shared allyship and a shared fight that we all have on our hands in that in that sphere.

Gary McLelland

That's really good. I guess one of the other themes that comes out in the report, which is something that comes out every year in the report and something that's really important to us, which I guess links into the guest that we have this week, is the issue of blasphemy laws. So this year's report draws out examples in Kenya of existing blasphemy laws which operate in those countries which obviously have this idea of an insulting of religion being criminal and can act as a coolant or a dampener on freedom of expression. And we see around the world are often used to target and harass humanists and other non-religious activists.

Welcoming Mubarak Bala

Leon Langdon

Yeah, but also it's not just, I think often it's framed as a tension, blasphemy laws, sort of the tension between freedom of religion or belief and freedom of expression, but actually they could just be assessed through the lens of freedom of religion or belief itself, because ultimately those laws are used to undermine the freedom of religion or belief, as you say, of atheists and humanists, but also of minority religious communities in many places. They are subject to these restrictions. Blasphemy is a is a term that is incredibly malleable and fungible and incredibly malleable. And within that, there is there is great ability and great power given to the state, and and with that the dominant religious tradition in that state to to shape that, to call whatever they want blasphemy, to to use them for political reasons, to use them for the oppression of religion and belief minorities. I think, like you say, that teases up very nicely for a guest.

Gary McLelland

Yes. So we're very, very pleased to be joined today by Mubarak Bala. Mubarak is the president of the Humanist Association of Nigeria, and as we said, an internationally recognized human rights activist, and now based in Europe, Mubarak will be well known to many of our listeners and viewers as a symbol of the global struggle of freedom of thought after being arrested in 2020 for expressing his non-religious views online. Mabarak spent nearly two years in prison awaiting a trial before being sentenced to 24 years imprisonment. Following sustained international pressure, particularly from humanist groups, this sentence was later reduced and he was released in 2024. He now lives in Europe and continues to be a vocal campaigner for the right to freedom of religion or belief and the right to freedom of expression. He'll be speaking at the launch of the Freedom of Thought Report in Brussels, and we're very pleased to have him join us today. Thank you very much, Mubarak, and welcome.

Mubarak Bala

Thank you. Thank you, Gary, for having me. Hello, Leah. Thank you.

Mubarak’s Detention, Survival and Continued Struggle

Gary McLelland

So I guess it may just be helpful to remember. Most people who are listening and watching this will obviously remember the many years of struggle in which you were imprisoned. But for me, I mean, I remember very clearly the day that you were detained. We had just begun the lockdown. I was living in London at the time. We got some news that you had been detained in your home. At that time, we had no idea who by. We didn't know if it was police, a state actor, or if you had been, you know, simply abducted and kidnapped. And it took a few days to work out that there had been uh this police activity and to try and figure out your location. Meanwhile, myself and Emma are caseworking campaigns manager at the time, working with Leo Igwe and a number of other people around Nigeria, trying to figure out where you were, who you were being held with, what the charges, if any were. And it was really a chaotic time. And obviously, we then had, you know, two really four years of intense lobbying, trying to ensure that you were safe and that you had your basic access to lawyers and legal representation. And now here you are joining us from Berlin. So I guess the first sort of thing I wanted to ask you is like, how are you now, Mabarick? What are you doing? Where are you? And yeah, just tell us a bit about how things are for you now. Thank you.

Impact & Legacy of International Blasphemy Laws

Mubarak Bala

Thank you, Gary, for having me. I would first start with appreciating the efforts. I think that's what kept me alive. The efforts of individuals and then organizations given up their resources, their hours and their emotions and prayers for the most part, locally in Nigeria. I think it helped a lot. The goodwill went through. And I in a way touched maybe emotionally, maybe conscious by their conscience, that they wouldn't harm me physically, and they kept they they would pre-varicate on the whole issue and accusations, but they wouldn't do beyond that. And I think I was the only case that survived. I left a lot of people now currently in jail, the marginalized people who are also Muslim, but they are very marginalized from the Islamic religion. So I I don't advocate just for myself, I advocate for Hemanists, I advocate for traditional believing African folks that are neither Christian nor Muslim. I also advocate for the minorities within Islam, the Shiites. They are very endangered, they are killed in the streets. I shared a few pictures earlier, and still to this day they are missing some 300 women and girls from a decade ago by state high-handedness by the military. And they are unaccounted for. These are family members from the Shiite community. And then also you have the Sufi community. I left two in jail where I was in Nigeria. There is still one serve, both of them serving death sentences for their beliefs. I was lucky I wasn't tried under the Sharia law because I'm not a Muslim, but they were tried under Sharia law. And then over the decade that passed, we've seen so many sentenced to death, and then so many that were not even so lucky to even get to the police station or to be able to get to the prison, as you mentioned earlier. But within the chaos of abduction and then transferring you to a facility, you could get killed. And even the police, without the documentation, without faults such as yourself, trying to make sense of it all and document things and make it formal, especially by the cyberspace making a lot of noise. Then the authorities would have to appoint a searchlight on the issue so they would at least appear to work professional in a way that saves the situation. But then as you said, you see, it took me four two first possibly two years to get to meet a judge and then another two years to get out of the troll. All in all, four and a half years, which in my present calendar is seven years already. We count it by two-thirds. If you're serving 30 years, then uh when you serve 20 years, it means you've served the 30 years. So for me, I'll speak personally, then I'll take you to the broader scope on the global stage. Uh well, the background I have is that I have a brain. I was born with a brain, but then my society, as I was growing up, told me I cannot use that brain. Someone, somewhere at some time in some other culture has already thought out life as it is for me. My culture, whatever conscience I have, it's not it's not supposed to be maybe outwardly spoken. Whatever conscience you have, you can think it, but you cannot say it out. The conflict is that you're putting school, you have your own eyes, you have your own ears, you're supposed to judge, but then you cannot express yourself. This is where the freedom of thought comes in, and then freedom of speech. So I cannot think because the moment you think, you realize something doesn't make sense. Let it even make sense. But uh I am not supposed to uh think that way beyond what maybe the Prophet of Islam has defined as these are the limitations to your thought. So it's very uh culturally is frowned upon, is very uh in some way maybe outlandish to say that you think this way or you think that way, or you want to behave this way, maybe by your conscience, if you express maybe solidarity to the Christian. Population, which is most of the activism. I was even as a Muslim, I was trying to protect the persecution of Christians in the region because sometimes it takes the dimension of ethnic pariah status that they are given because they don't belong to the major religions, uh especially Islamic religion. So we have them as a victim, the main victim. They converted to Christianity only for the protection of the a century ago, while we were Muslim for eight, ninth centuries. So we had that issue, and then we can calculate that over the centuries and over the other decades, we are struggling to protect the minorities, which is Christians in northern Nigeria, but then we've extended now beyond that into the other sects, such as I said, the Sufis. So even to this day, Nigeria, as I am following cases, even a month ago, there were regulations, clerics were put on trial, not the court trial, but community trial in such a way that they have to be they are sanctioned on what they could preach. They just want to believe in the Quran and disregard the hadiths. And this is an uproar and it's frowned upon. So even a governor had to intervene. That if the preachers, especially now today, is Ramadan, if the preachers would not keep to this scope of Islam that they accept as them, as Islam, as the legal, acceptable Islam, then they are in trouble. They could go to jail. So within the four weeks of Ramadan, you would see people going to jail just for preaching their own spirituality, their own freedoms to express, or how they understand Islam to be, and especially since they are trying to counter the fanaticism within the society as well, killing fields. Nigeria is a killing field now. 200 here, 300 there, killings, wiping out villages. It's still the trouble. And it's on the broader scale is the Sahel region. And then probably on the global scale, what I observed, what you're saying, is that the state actors are the ones to blame. Where sometimes it's the state with its high-handedness. Nigeria is supposed to be secular on paper, but then the state, in its own official efforts, try to regulate these things. And then on the communal level, which is more intense, that's where you have the intensity of the persecution and the violence. So most times it's non-state actors in our situation on the Sahel region. So you are even lucky, you are at the mercy firstly of the mob. You could get killed just for maybe voicing out that you don't believe in Islam or you don't believe in some doctrines within Islam, or you don't want to belong to a certain understanding of thought, especially converting from Islam to Christianity or from Christianity to Islam. And then also beyond the communal level, you have the family level where you start to lose your wife, your children if you are known to be non-Muslim. And then on the international stage, what I observed is very scary, as you mentioned, where states are withdrawing their own responsibilities towards states. We always thought that the West, especially Europe and America, is where civilization works, where we could grunt to when we see problems. But then when we see that even those states are now persecuting their own minority groups or maybe allowing the state or the judicial aspect. I think I read that someone burned the Quran. Even personally, I don't think he had to, but then it's his choice to want to burn the Quran if it offended him. But then, as it was said, he would be convicted, and so he may have to serve a jail sentence or exile himself to another country. This is Britain. And as I said, there were times I was in jail, and they would tell me, even though I don't know whether you have blasphemy laws or not, but they would tell me the British have blasphemy laws, so we get our own confidence from the British. So if I was persecuted is because maybe we think the British system stands for something like prostitution or oppression of minorities. But then also the withdrawal of the United States from state institutions. United States is the one that created these League of Nations that became the United Nations, but now withdrawing from these things, it means it's a free-for-all. Everybody can just decide what laws or maybe become a theocratic country. And I'm scared that most times I fear that if we don't have that monitor group or monitor institution such as the United Nations, so who stands for the minorities in countries such as ourselves, our countries, that we can survive the individuals. But then if our states realize that there is no policeman above, then most probably we are at their mercy. And I hope to go back home. I hope someday I could go back home and I would take a drum and stand and preach that I'm an atheist, or maybe I could adopt an imaginary goddess and declare that I am a priest of some goddess, and then I'll be free to do that. I always had the dream, it's fantasy, but this is just to give confidence to the traditional African faults that are already marginalized, they're out of this equation, tooted. But if I if the United States is not there, if the British cannot tolerate their own dissenting voices within the freedoms of conscience and thought, then where do we stand? It means nobody would pressure. Maybe you would be arrested if you advocated for me, if I was in jail some 10 years from now, then it means you're in trouble, you cannot enforce whatever efforts you're making, such as what you made earlier, and it means I'll just be there perpetually. And as a reminder, it was not just 24 years. I had another charge, which was 16 years. So I was servant cumulative of 40 years. So for me it's very scary if I cannot stand and feel free in my own country and then counting on the Western culture that something is there as our maybe our fallback, maybe soft landing, maybe what we could call a platform that we could rely upon. If it's not there, then we are bear. I don't think we could be safe in any way to have that freedom that we always cherish to hold.

Gary McLelland

That's a really fascinating point, Mabarek, what you make there about Western blasphemy laws. It's uh I don't know about the case that you reference in the UK, but I do know England and Wales abolished its blasphemy laws many years ago. I remember from the time when I worked in Scotland, there was still a technical blasphemy law. There was a an old common law blasphemy law. Now I believe that has either just been abolished or is in the process of being abolished. But one of the interesting things, Humanists International set up the End Blasphemy Laws Coalition, and one of the things we tried to identify was countries in which there was a dead letter blasphemy law, as they call it, so an old blasphemy law. And we tried to make that exact point, that there's many countries around the world who do strictly enforce a blasphemy law that will point to the existence of blasphemy laws in countries where they're no longer used as justification for their own use of those laws, and that it's really, really important that we do the work of tidying up these dead letter laws. And also, I suppose, as well, it's part of guarding against a change of strategy in the future. You know, if these dead letter laws, because of a change of the political and social environment, start to become alive again and used and enforced, then obviously we're all in big trouble. So I think that's a very clear message that we have to send to our members in countries who maybe don't think they have an issue to be addressed nationally with things like blasphemy laws and protections. Like it couldn't be more important to, even if it's a gesture or a signal, that these gestures and signals matter and that it's important to stand up for freedom of expression, freedom of religion or belief. So I think that's a and the other point as well about the withdrawal from the international system or the multilateral system, as Leon and I were just discussing. I mean, it does really worry a lot of people, I think, to see the United States withdraw from the UPR, the Human Rights Council, because as you say, flawed though they are with in many ways, these bodies are the best we have ever done in creating an international system of accountability peer review. And I think it's a big concern, yeah, that you're right to to push upon. What do you think from your point of view, Leon?

Mubarak’s Ongoing Advocacy - The Cost Of Global Retreat

Leon Langdon

Yeah, I am familiar with the case you mention, Mubarak, and I actually think two of our two of our members have been but in the UK have been following it quite closely. I haven't seen the verdict, but I believe it's been in the last couple of days. Um it's an example of where there's sort of that line between incitement and blasphemy is is being sort of tested, I guess, in the UK. And I think it's important for for us all to watch the reasoning in that case and to see where that ends up landing. Because I think it it is important, like Gary says, and like you say, blasphemy laws are against international law. We've had basically every UN expert has has come out that the UN Secretary General has come out and criticized blasphemy laws. But I know, I mean, recent research from the Freedom of Thought Report had over 80 countries still having blasphemy laws. And as Gary says, many of them are not. I mean, obviously, some of them are countries, you know, Nigeria being one of them, but also uh to the best of my knowledge, even Germany, where your Sat Mubarak still has a blasphemy law. And so it it's really important that we watch, yeah, those countries that that we traditionally see as as being a bit stronger on freedom of religion or belief. I mean to make sure that that actually their internal policies match what they what they go and make statements about internationally or or whatever it might be. Mubarak, it'd be great to hear more about you. Obviously speak so eloquently about the the international perspective, but but what you have, I guess, been doing since since arriving in Germany and obviously resting and and recovering from from the arduous experience that you've had, but also be great to hear about some of the sort of activism you've been doing as well.

FOTR Launch Event and Mubarak's Closing Message

Mubarak Bala

Yeah, oh thank you. On the personal level, I tried as much as I can to be very active. I've been traveling a lot. I traveled to almost, I think about 20 European cities. I can't maybe travel to the the Freedom of Thought presentation in Brussels because now I've run out of steam by visa. I mean, this this visa has expired, and we are in the process with the opportunity I was offered in this office. So I have the chance, but it's a long process. German bureaucracy takes a lot to document. I have the interview almost coinciding with the presentation of the report next week. I think it will be too late. I may only have to appear, such as now, electronically. But then on the other level, I try as much as I can now that I'm safe. The humanist community in Nigeria is in disarray. And then not just Nigeria, I realize that a lot of people now count on our kind of connection and uh network to reach out. So it's not just Nigeria, but the Sahel region, West African region, sometimes Central Africa, sometimes the Middle East. I try to coordinate with local organizations that I have contact with. So on the ground level, we're trying to give confidence. And it's not just the humanists, even the Muslims reach out to us when they feel that their rights are trampled upon. And also the minorities within the maybe the sexual angle, the LGBT is already uh, you know, it's illegal in Nigeria and in most parts of Africa. So they also reach out to us. And so we try as much as we could to give them some sort of safety. And I broaden the scope. It's not just about humanists, it's not about humanism, it's about that freedom for anybody whoever wants to express himself or herself on any kind of conscience that they don't want to belong to a certain maybe norm, and they just want to maybe be in another state or another dimension or emotional feeling, then they have that right as long as it's what I would call because even if I said it's legal, then it means it's illegal in some countries. You have your conscience, and then it's illegal to have that conscience. For example, an LGBT individual is already a criminal. Even this moment, as I was speaking to you, I was checking my phone because I'm following a case, an abduction of a female from one city to another city, from the capital city. Yesterday she slept in the police custody. I'm still following. I've already contacted lawyers trying to say she's a Muslim, but she's being bullied by another Muslim, most probably over some, but this is gender-based because she is a woman, so she could be bullied and the state cannot protect her. And most importantly, you'd see that uh the state actually doesn't care. As long as you don't, I was only lucky because I have you guys, you know me. A lot of individuals don't have you, don't have anybody. They don't have money, they don't have resources, they don't even have the education. They are illiterate, they didn't go to school, so they have nobody. So these are cases that you would immediately hear, but you know their fate is already sealed. So all you could do is try to move papers here and there, make a phone call here and there, see if you could make an impact. We already have been making impacts, and lucky for me, I'm safe. So I could intervene without actually being abducted myself, which is the safety of being up here in Europe. So for now, it's a race against time. And I think we are losing it. As I always said, it's you we count on, Europeans, Western civilization. The moment you're losing it, because now you are already too far left or too far, we don't understand that. We only see the culture that you are there. If you could stand for freedom, whichever side politically you belong, at least we could count on that. So, for example, if the government is uh maybe MAGA, so I don't have the right to express myself because maybe I don't have the back end, or if your government is communist, then it means it would not stand for us in the maybe global south. So I'm really concerned, and then also in Europe, I realize there are a lot of things that is going on here with uh fanaticism and as you said, nationalism. I'm even scared. Maybe sometimes I had to ask the head of the former organization I was with that is it a chance? Is there any chance I would end up in a camp? Because I would be surprised if Europe is deteriorating in that way. And he said, if you ended up in a camp, then I as well, for being an atheist, will be in that camp with you. So at least you're not alone. And I said, Well, let's hope that it doesn't deteriorate beyond that. And uh, lucky for me, while here in Europe, I try as much as I can to also normalize humanism, especially from the Muslim community. They don't hear of it much from Africa. I'm trying as much as I can to do that with the Muslim community, engaging them in person in Nigeria. I cannot do that. But here in Europe, I've been to several mosques, I've been to several Muslim communities. I try as much as I can to bring them to that kind of tolerant standpoint that they could hear me out, I could hear them out if I'm blaspheming if what I said is offensive, then at least it should be seen as offensive, but not an attack. Because they see it almost as a literal attack. You say you don't belong, believe in this, or this is crazy, or this is not a good law to be to have in your holy book, then it's an attack. That's what they feel literally hurt, and that they would want to retaliate physically. You always said a word and they wanted to act in a more irrational way. So I'm trying as much as I can to bring our people close, especially those from West Africa, because this is where you can engage them. If they could tolerate us here, then we have the chance to go back home. So this is what I've been doing. And the last thing is engaging the international community, diplomats. As I told you, most of the activism is about also the Christians that are being persecuted. The terrorists are killing Christians, but then they are killing Muslims as well. But they're only killing Muslims because Muslims have not joined in killing the Christians. So this is what we've been doing. And surprisingly, the allies could now find the people from these, what you would call the conservative evangelicals. They have that emotional attachment to these kind of causes. So I don't think uh even the liberal government would care, but not to the point of maybe an intervention. As you know now, uh there are hundreds of American troops in Nigeria trying the as much as they could, maybe to be become the buffer between the two communities. It's a good thing, as I said, we don't see much difference. We are you are just Europeans or Western culture. As long as you could come to arbitrate, whether you have your own leanings politically, all we want is the killings to stop. So we have hundreds of American troops now in Nigeria. And it's related to what I've been doing over here in Europe and then meeting American diplomats telling them what the situation has been so far on the ground for decades. And now this is the only time we have the chance that the international media is at least turning to our plight, to our situation. We don't have the numbers. Humanists count only a few thousand, but then the Christian community counts and they're millions, but they are not safe. There were times that people would tell me, if you only converted to Christianity, you will not be this harassed. And I told them, even if I was a Christian, yeah, I may have the institution and the lawyers and whatever back end, but what would I gain from that? Because you are also killing Christians, they are not safe. So as a humanist, I am, I am managing myself very well. And I have the advocates, uh, hopefully that especially that was then. But now you got me out. And I said I have my own people doing the works in the background.

Gary McLelland

Thanks, Mabarek. It's a really amazing message that you're sending out here, and I think you know, it's one that that we try obviously to amplify as the message that we want to achieve freedom of religion or belief, not just for humanists, but for everybody in you know, around the world for regardless of their beliefs. And I think you know the points you've made there are really I think they'll be very important, very challenging points for lots of people. But I guess you'll be virtually at the launch event of the Freedom of Thought Report, and you'll be able to uh share your message with the panelists there. But just before we end the interview, this the podcast will be going out to leaders of humanist organizations all around the world and people involved in humanism. As many of the leaders of humanist organizations will be dealing with a lot of challenges in their own national context, political, economic. Uh you know, it's a very it's a changing world uh more rapidly now than ever before. And obviously, we want to like you encourage them to engage, lean into the system of international collaboration and cooperation through humanists international. So I guess what would be your one message, your one takeaway to the leaders of humanist organizations around the world?

Mubarak Bala

I'll say you have already done a very good job over the years. You have stood be maybe as neutral as possible when these winds of change are blowing. A lot of people are losing the focus, but humanists I have seen have still kept the empathy and the dedication to the cause without discrimination based on gender, based on race, based on uh a religious belief. You stood for the humanist community, and then also you stood for those that had no voice. You amplified their causes.

Leon Langdon

Thank you so much, Mubarak, for all of your commentary and for for joining us today. Um yeah, it's been it's been a real pleasure to to hear from you. I think obviously having I've had the privilege of addressing the United Nations about your case when when you were imprisoned and to have met you obviously in Luxembourg last year at the at the General Assembly, but also to be able to just sit and and have this conversation with you is is a real privilege, given everything you've been through and and and given given where you are now, and and I think your message of of yeah, freedom of religion or belief for all, universal human rights for all, and and that we as humanists stand for human rights for all and and should be the ones sort of standing up to defend that is is really poignant and and is really special to to be sharing with you.

Mubarak Bala

Thank you so much, Lee. And I missed you in Geneva, but I hope to see you on the next opportunity.

Gary McLelland

Hopefully we'll see you in Ottawa at the World Humanist Congress later this year, Mabarek.

Mubarak Bala

Yes, of course. I hope the residency permit uh would be ready by then. This is six months, so I'm sure it would be ready.

Gary McLelland

That's great. And our members and supporters will be able to read your address in the Freedom of Thought report when it goes live today on the 25th of February, and also to see your input to the launch event when they follow the live stream online.

Mubarak Bala

Yeah, sure indeed. I'll be grateful for you providing the opportunity. Thanks, my Barak. You're welcome. Thank you, Gary. Thank you, Liam.

Freedom of Belief is for Everyone

Gary McLelland

If you found this episode useful, please share it with others. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and turn on notifications so you don't miss future episodes. Early reviews really help. So if you can leave a five star rating, it makes a big difference in helping new listeners find the show. We'll be bringing conversations with activists, campaigners, and leaders working on freedom of thought around the world. If there's a topic you'd like us to cover or someone you'd like to suggest as a guest, you can contact us via office at human. To support this work, find out how to join Humanists International and subscribe to our newsletter visit humanists. Our editors and the team at Humanize Live and the team at Humanists International. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Freedom of Thought. We're really glad that you're here.

Head Shot

Gary McLelland

Host
Head Shot

Leon Langdon

Host
Head Shot

Humanise Live

Producer
Head Shot

Mubarak Bala

Guest

Podcasts we love

Check out these other fine podcasts recommended by us, not an algorithm.