Humanism As Resistance with Maggie Ardiente

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This week’s episode features a conversation with Maggie Ardiente, President 
of Humanists International, reflecting on the global defence of freedom of belief and the role of humanists in resisting rising authoritarianism.

Maggie shares the origin story of the Freedom of Thought Report, explaining how early engagement with the US State Department helped ensure discrimination against atheists and humanists was formally documented. What began as a modest advocacy intervention has grown into Humanists International’s flagship annual publication, used by diplomats, policymakers, and civil society organisations worldwide.

We also explore how humanists engage international institutions such as the UN Human Rights Council and UNESCO, the growing coordination of nationalist movements across borders, and why coalition-building across beliefs is essential to defending democracy and universal human rights. The episode concludes with a look ahead to the World Humanist Congress in Ottawa and the theme of humanism as resistance.

In this episode, we cover

• The origins and growth of the Freedom of Thought Report
• How documentation translates into international advocacy
• Humanists working inside the UN Human Rights Council
• Why cultural expression and media freedom matter at UNESCO
• The rise of interconnected nationalist movements
• Funding asymmetries in global human rights work
• Why coalition-building across beliefs is essential
• Humanism as resistance and the World Humanist Congress 2026

Further reading and references

• Freedom of Thought Report:  https://humanists.international/what-we-do/freedom-of-thought-report/
• UN Human Rights Council overview:  https://www.ohchr.org/en/hr-bodies/hrc/about-council
• UNESCO 2005 Convention on the Diversity of Cultural Expressions:  https://www.unesco.org/creativity/en/2005-convention
• World Humanist Congress 2026: https://humanists.international/event/world-humanist-congress-2026/

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🎶Music: Horizon by Simon Folwar

Podcast transcripts are AI-generated and may contain errors or omissions. They are provided to make our content more accessible, but should not be considered a fully accurate record of the conversation.

Transcript

Reflecting on Mubarak Bala's Interview

Leon Langdon 0:41

Welcome to Freedom of Thought, a podcast by Humanist International. I'm Leon Langdon. I'm Gary McLelland.

Gary McLelland 0:48

Okay, Leon. So last week we had the podcast with Mubarak. That was really, really amazing. It was amazing to get to spend some time chatting with Mubarak, obviously, after many of us had worked so long on his case behind the scenes and a lot of sort of confidential briefings with people and so on. So now to see him settled in Europe, working with a humanist organization, doing some policy work, contributing to the Freedom of Thought report, and able to share his analysis and his thoughts with us. I thought it was really amazing. A very eloquent and thoughtful speaker as well, I thought.

Leon Langdon 1:22

I think what's so poignant about hearing Mubarak speak as well is obviously having suffered so much, he's now chosen not just to become an advocate for humanism and humanist religious and belief minorities, particularly in Nigeria, of course, but around the world who are suffering. But also, you talk heard him mentioning women and girls and being denied their education, LGBT plus individuals who he's been advocating on behalf of. I think, yeah, you're completely spot on. Just it's so incredible having been so aware of everything going on in this case at different points and doing that sort of advocacy from geographically very far away to get so far, and obviously to have him speak as well at the launch of the Freedom of Thought report and to write the foreword as well as being on this podcast. I think it just really it's obviously not an end of a journey, but feels like a really nice moment to mark all of those things at once.

Gary McLelland 2:10

Definitely. One of the things that stuck out for me as well was you know him very clearly saying that he wants to get back to Nigeria or to get back to somewhere in Western Africa and continue his advocacy um for freedom of thought and uh freedom of religion or belief, which it's just quite a breathtaking thing. We do a lot of hard, complicated, difficult work, a lot of traveling and things, but there's no element of my job that involves the type of risk assessment and that he's obviously having to go through and has gone through.

UNESCO Meetings And Cultural Rights

Leon Langdon 2:38

Yeah, I even think I said this on the podcast last week, but I actually remember one of my first statements that I delivered at the UN after I joined Humanists International, it was from my bedroom in London, so safe, completely fine compared to what I was talking about, but was advocating to the UN working group on arbitrary detention to make a decision on Mubarak's case. And I think, yeah, this just feels like something so full circle about it, and yet he's, like you said, is still looking to go back and keep doing that work in in a really difficult and frankly dangerous environment for someone like him with threats against his life and imprisonment, but hopefully behind him and all the rest.

Gary McLelland 3:15

Yeah, it's amazing. Speaking of travel, we should mention, Leon, that in last week's episode you were coming to us live from Paris, where you were at a meeting of UNESCO. Maybe just give us a quick update on how that went.

Why Geneva’s Human Rights Council Matters

Leon Langdon 3:26

Yeah, so I was at a meeting of the Intergovernmental Committee on the 2005 Convention on the Diversity of Cultural Expressions, which we've been involved in for many years. And we've been involved in UNESCO a hell of a lot longer than that, though. Our first director general of UNESCO by the name of Julian Huxley was intrinsic to the founding of the International Humanists and Ethical Union, so Humanist International, back in 1952. And so we have a very long history there. The meeting itself was really useful. I think it's really important to be talking about arts and culture funding amidst the challenges to that, the challenges to civil society funding, um, safety of artists, safety of journalists, all that kind of stuff is relevant. And I think that's increasingly important amidst those challenges. But I particularly had some really good meetings along the side of that with people working on freedom of expression and media freedom, all of whom are very keen to find ways to work with us. Obviously, funding is a huge challenge for everyone, but a lot of interest in the work we're doing, a lot of interest in who we are, and particularly this long history at UNESCO. I think it's somewhere that going forward, I think it's definitely worth Humanist International investing some time for our members to see what's going on there where possible as well. Yeah, it was a really, a really useful week, I think, all in all.

Gary McLelland 4:40

Amazing. And I think that's the kind of interesting insight I think which we can bring through this podcast because one of the things obviously that you're preparing for at the moment is to travel to Geneva for the Human Rights Council. And one of the episodes that we do in a future podcast is going to be a deep dive into what actually goes on at the Human Rights Council in Geneva and what do we do to support our members and associates to have a voice there. So I think that'll be a really interesting one to unpick what can be quite a complicated, often abbreviation-laden organization. So I think that'll be a really interesting episode as well.

Introducing Maggie Ardiente

Leon Langdon 5:14

Yeah, I'm excited to get to talk about that. Honestly, when I get to train members on being involved in the UN, I think that's one of the most exciting things that I get to do. I won't go too far into that episode, but actually the Human Rights Council has already begun. And so we already have some statements that have gone out by video. But yeah, I'll be in Geneva very soon. And I think it's a tough time again to mention funding, to mention sort of threats to multilateralism, countries pulling out and things like that. Um, we've obviously recently penned or led an open letter on the US withdrawal from multilateral institutions and something we've already talked about on this podcast. So I'm excited to be in Geneva as always. There's always a good buzz with other civil society organizations and pushing forward or at the very least defending the human rights that are our long one. But I think that also transitions nicely to our guest for today, who has very recently worked with me to deliver a statement at the UN Human Rights Council. I don't know, Gary, if you'd like to introduce Maggie.

Origins Of The Freedom Of Thought Report

Gary McLelland 6:06

Yes, our guest today is Maggie Ardiente , who is an American humanist leader, nonprofit executive, and advocate of the intersection of secularism, social justice, and civil rights. In 2025, she was elected president of Humanists International, becoming the first woman of color to lead the organization in our entire history. Maggie served for 12 years as Director of Development and Comms at the American Humanist Association, where she helped to organize the 2012 Reason Rally and edited thehumanist.com. Later, she joined PFLAG as VP of Development, bringing her fundraising and advocacy skills to the LGBTQ rights work, and is now working with Physicians for Social Responsibility, an organization that mobilizes health professionals to advocate for a world free from nuclear weapons and climate disasters. As the immediate past president of the Secular Coalition for America, she led a coalition of 20 secular, humanist and atheist organizations working to defend religious freedom, separation of church and state, and equal representation of non-religious Americans. She's a commentator on reproductive rights, secularism, and equality, and has appeared on NPR, the Washington Post, and Fox News. Welcome, Maggie.

Maggie Ardiente 7:20

Hi, Gary. Hi, Leon. Great to see you both. Thanks so much for having me.

Gary McLelland 7:25

Thanks so much for making the time to talk to us today. And we're out, you've just been in Brussels for the launch of the Freedom of Thought Report, but there's an interesting connection that you have with the Freedom of Thought Report that some of our members and associates might not be aware of. Would you like us to tell us about that?

Member Visits And Lessons From Amsterdam

Maggie Ardiente 7:40

Yeah, I'm really excited to have played a role in the establishment of the Freedom of Thought Report when it began. So as some of you, I was with the American Humanist Association from 2005 to 2018, so for 12 years. And I was head of director of development and communications there. And around 2010-2011, we had started to communicate more with the US Department of State, who was very interested in talking with us because a lot of religious organizations, Catholics, Muslims, Sikhs, Jews, Buddhists, every religion that's represented in the United States, would submit reports on the state of religious freedom as it relates to their own religion and identified cases of discrimination. And I noticed that humanists weren't involved, and we were very grateful to have somebody who was an ally at the State Department who was very interested in hearing more from humanists and more about atheist persecution. So at the time we worked with Humanists International to put together a report, but we had a fully funded staff and an advocacy person at the time who could really dedicate work to this report. So we put together a quick little report and submitted to that to the State Department. And they included a number of the cases of discrimination that we highlighted that were happening around the world in their own international religious freedom report that comes out of the State Department. So I'm just really glad that we had the opportunity to participate. And that was the first essential report of atheist and humanist discrimination around the world. And then the following year, we knew that this was a really important publication and project that Humanist International would be able to carry forth with their wide network of humanist organizations and the number of volunteers that it takes to put together this report. I like to say that I helped initiate those conversations and help it get started in the US, but Humanist International has really brought it to the forefront. It's our flagship program and publication and is now so widely used around the world. I'm just so proud to have played a role and a part of that.

Gary McLelland 9:42

Yeah, it's quite an amazing journey to go from that back in 2012 to now in 2026 launching the 14th edition of this report, which covers every country in the world and with a very detailed analysis of the law and policy as it affects the rights of non-religious people such as humanists and atheists, and to still be continuing to lobby the State Department, USERF, and other international bodies like we've just been doing in the European Union to take awareness of these findings and to take awareness of the situation facing many humanists around the world. It's quite an amazing achievement. You've also been in Amsterdam, meeting with our member organization in Amsterdam. How did that go?

Authoritarian Drift And Defending Democracy Globally

Maggie Ardiente 10:19

Yeah, I had a great opportunity to meet with Robert Bodegraven, the executive director of the Dutch Humanists Association. I got to visit their office in Amsterdam. Great building, great space. I got to meet some of their staff and got to sit down with Robert and talk more about the history of the group and the challenges that they're experiencing here in the Netherlands. Just really glad to learn a little bit more about all of our member organizations and to thank the Dutch Human Association for being such a strong partner of Humanist International. So it's been a really great experience. And of course, I've got to enjoy some really great food during my TAM in Amsterdam, and in particular, got a chance, of course, to visit the Anne Frank House, which I know many people do when they visit Amsterdam. And the parallels with regards to what happened during World War II and things that are happening here in the United States in particular is very scary. It's all leading toward this from democracy to dictatorship and the signs of authoritarianism and fascism. We see a lot happening right now in the United States. And it's something that we know we need to resist, we need to stand up against, and we need to fight because when we talk about having the good life and living our humanist values, it's something that we just can't take for granted. And we always know that at some time it might be taken away from us. And so we have to defend, we have to fight, and we have to support all of our allies and groups that are working hard to preserve and promote democracy.

Leon Langdon 11:46

How do you feel about what's going on in the US at the moment as it relates internationally? Obviously, we've we've talked a lot about specifically decisions on US and multilateralism, but also what's happening in the domestic US context also affects and reverberates around the world, be it through news or, you know, however else.

Nationalisms That Feed Each Other

Maggie Ardiente 12:03

Well, I'm really grateful that we have a number of strong humanist, atheist, and secular organizations in the United States that have been doing so many important things to resist, to fight back, to challenge the Trump administration in many ways, and to mobilize people to be aware of what's going on. Again, I think many of you know around the world that we have ICE agents and National Guard that have been stationed in major cities across the country and that are literally taking away our immigrant neighbors and friends and family members. And it's horrifying and scary, but allies who can stand up and protect and hide and support and do what we can to support our neighbors, that's an incredible form of resistance that takes a lot of strength, a lot of courage to challenge these inappropriate, illegal, and unfair laws that are targeting a particular group in our country. And there's other things that are happening too. Again, the Trump administration is continuing to send out statements regarding crackdowns on anti-Christian bias or anti-Christian rhetoric. What does that mean? Who is under that? Is that going to be humanists and atheists? Is it going to be other religious minorities that just simply because they're not Christian? We have to be very aware of these things. And so it's really important that groups like American Humanists Association, American Atheists, Secular Coalition for America, we're all working to mobilize, raise awareness, and find ways that we can resist and point out how illegal and inappropriate these types of laws are. But at the same time, find ways to support our communities, band together, join together, and resist in every way we can.

Gary McLelland 13:46

Before this, Maggie, Leon and I were actually just talking about an interesting few meetings we've had. On Friday, I met with a group of ex-Muslims, some ex-Muslims from North America, some ex-Muslims International, and also have previously met with a group called Hindus for Human Rights. And what they were talking about was the interesting thing. You know, there's quite a lot of discussion now in our network, particularly in North America, about white Christian nationalism and the threats that plays. And without in any way downplaying that, these groups that we're talking to was also trying to bring in this perspective of Hindu nationalism in India and some of the kind of Islamist nationalism that we see in parts of the Middle East and North Africa, and how these types of political movements are all interconnected. They all feed off each other. You know, the same type of rhetoric that boosts this movement in the US feeds over into other parts of the world and they're all very interconnected. And it's really quite a worrying time, you know, when we see this amalgamation of regressive forces around the world.

Building Coalitions Beyond Labels

Maggie Ardiente 14:44

One of the things that I just talked about with Robert today actually was just how well funded this far right movement is, and that it's not just exclusive in the United States. It's happening in the Netherlands, it's happening across Europe, it's happening in Africa, it's happening in parts of Asia. And it's a coordinated effort. It's coordinated, it's well funded, it's strategic, and they have trillions of dollars. And we don't have that. We recognize that the humanist movement does not have those resources. I wish we did, but we don't. And so we have to do what we can. But it shows how much of an uphill battle we have. And that's why it's really important for humanists, wherever we are in the world, to ally and partner with other human rights organizations that share similar values. So maybe we all call it a different thing, or maybe it's even religious organizations that we partner with. But if we all agree and recognize basic human rights, the freedom to believe or not to believe, the freedom of conscience, the freedom to speak your mind, and have freedom of thought. As long as we agree on all of these things, we can work together and we can fight back, even if we don't have trillions of dollars and the wide network that the far-right religious or far-right fascist groups have. I mean, we have to be realistic about our situation, but at the same time recognize that everything that we do matters and every effort moves us forward into protecting democracy around the world.

Leon Langdon 16:12

I think to pick up on stuff that you've both said there, I think when you're talking about Islamic nationalism or Hindufta as a form of nationalism in India and Nepal, for example, when you have white Christian nationalism that is in the US or Europe talking about the erasure of Hindu and Muslim identities, for example, there is almost an inevitable nationalism that happens in those other parts of the world as a result. And I think what you say about it all feeding off each other, Gary, is completely accurate. And Maggie, I think you're so right when you talk about needing to band together with people who care about human rights, who care about universal indivisible human rights and access to vindicating those rights. I think it's so easy to draw lines in the sand about who we do and don't work with in terms of, particularly when the term, you know, crossing religious lines, for example. But I think having a wide tent and really finding allies wherever we can and really fundamentally talking about the defense of democracy as a tool to protect universal human rights and ultimately humanist values, I think is incredibly important.

World Humanist Congress: Past And Purpose

Maggie Ardiente 17:13

I'm very glad that Humanist International is taking on that banner in such a strong way. Again, I think that humanism as resistance, as the theme for the World Humanist Congress in Ottawa in August, is so appropriate and so timely and so urgent to meeting the needs we have right now. And I know it's not always easy for us to feel like we can do something, but as I've mentioned, every action matters, whether it's calling your government official, whether it's joining a humanist organization and banding together with community. I think all of these things are so key to, again, breaking down the us versus them, the this is another person, another, and not me. We have to recognize that there's joy in diversity, there's joy in growth and opportunities for us to work together. And we need to lean into all of those things if we have any chance of standing up against these far-right extremist groups.

Gary McLelland 18:11

Definitely. And the one thing I would just say is if any of our viewers or listeners do happen to be billionaires or trillionaires that would like to support our resistance to help us go toe-to-toe with some of these far-right forces, we'd be very glad to hear from you. So it needn't be the case, but you know, if there is any donors out there, please do get in touch. We're looking ahead, as you said, Maggie, to the 2026 World Humanist Congress. I was just wondering, do you remember the first time that you attended a World Humanist Congress?

Leading Ottawa 2026 and Movement Strategy

Maggie Ardiente 18:38

Yes, I do. Actually, the first humanist world congress I attended was in Washington, D.C. in 2008. And so I had just started at the organization. You know, I'd been maybe two or three years into my role. And though at the time it was very US-centric, um, I think it was the first time we were working with Humanist International, which was called IECEU at the time. Um, and so it was a very US-centered Congress, of which at the time, not knowing much about the organization seemed fine with me. I so I would say that the real world humanist congress I attended for the first time was in 2014 in Oxford, hosted by Humanists UK. That was life-changing for me. You know, so I had been still working at the American Humanist Association at the time. I was, I think it was about 10 years into my job, but again, continued to be very US focused. It really wasn't until that event where I got to meet so many humanists from around the world to see, in particular, what was happening in the UK at the time that made me feel part of a bigger community. And that really changed a lot of my humanist activism and recognizing that us trying to grow humanism in the US is not a unique challenge. It's a challenge everywhere in the world. And it's different in other places, and we all have different challenges related to funding, you know, whether that's private funding or government funding, and it's also related to the number of people who are part of your groups. We all have these challenges, but when we can come together and talk about those challenges and find solutions to those challenges at events like the World Humanist Congress, that helps all of our groups together. And I learned so much from that Congress. I still have so many fond memories of I had champagne with Philip Pullman. That was probably one of the biggest highlights of my life. He was just amazing. And, you know, again, getting to see Andrew Cobson again, whom I had known for many years and so grateful to still be connected with him. It was just a really life-changing experience. I know there were many people who attended that Congress, went back to their home countries, and started humanist groups. So we know the importance of community. We know the importance of events like the World Humanist Congress. And so I hope many folks are planning to be in Ottawa, whether you are somebody who is new to humanism and wants to learn more, or whether you've been somebody who's been involved a long time. It's very rare for us to get together in person. And I think it's really important that we do when we can. It really helps build those strong networks, build those strong relationships that we're going to need in the future if we want humanism to grow.

Leon Langdon 21:12

How'd it feel, Maggie, to go from that to presiding over a World Humanist Congress?

Maggie's Message to Members

Maggie Ardiente 21:17

I'm a little nervous, admittedly, as I always am sometimes when it comes to addressing a very large group. I will say that I'm very pleased and I do want to extend my gratitude to our member organizations and associate members who participated in the last online General Assembly. That was the first General Assembly that I led and conducted, and it went so smoothly that we ended early, which it almost never happens, I think, when it comes to humanist meetings in any way, shape, or form. I think it spoke to the great work that I think board members and member organizations did leading up to that event with regards to some changes in the bylaws that we wanted to make, that of course are part of the democratic process and part of what it means to be a member of Humanist International. But I thought that went really smoothly. I'm really grateful to all of the members who participated in that. And yes, for Ottawa, I'm I'm admittedly a little nervous, but at the same time, very excited, very eager to lead this organization, lead my first General Assembly, and get to see a lot of our member organization leaders again. We are nothing without our members, so we're very excited about that.

Gary McLelland 22:20

It's very exciting, man. We've been working really closely with Humanist Canada as our co hosts for this World Humanist Congress. We've been amazing to work with. So it's going to be a real collaboration. I'm really looking forward to it. We're coming towards the end of the podcast now, Maggie. Is there anything thinking maybe about messages to To our members and associates and the leaders of our organizations. Is there anything that you think you'd like to share with them or any messages you have for our members?

Maggie Ardiente 22:44

Yeah, I think a message I have for our member organizations is to remember that isolationism is not the answer. And that the only way in which we are going to solve our problems, the world's problems, and work to defend human rights is to work in coalition with each other and to increase cooperation. And I, of course, want to thank our very active, very engaged member organizations across the world. I want to continue to support the member or associate organizations that are working hard in their own countries to fight against far-right extremist groups and support the growth of humanism in their own countries so that they can become more active. I think again, in the conversation I was having with Robert, we have to defend democracy with everything that we have. When we think about fighting for the good life, it's something we have to fight for. It's not something that's just given to us. It's not something that we should ever take for granted. We have to think about it every day. We have to have conversations like these all the time and to think about why we're resisting, what we're resisting, and how we resist. And so I want people to think about that a lot more. And when they come to Ottawa in August, to be ready and willing and able to engage with other organizations and learn about the challenges and opportunities that are happening around the world and be able to go home, take that information and make the world and make their country and make their home a better place for all people.

Gary McLelland 24:13

Maggie, President of Humanists International, thank you very much for your time. And our members and associates can all look forward to spending more time with you in Ottawa this August. Thank you once again, Maggie.

Maggie Ardiente 24:24

My pleasure, Gary. Thank you, Leon. I'm so grateful to work with you both. What a pleasure. Thank you.