Freedom of Thought by Humanists International

How Humanist Legislators Turn Values Into Progress with Lizzi Collinge MP & Heidi Nordby Lunde

• Humanise Live • Season 1 • Episode 6

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 33:18

Sign up for the Humanists International Newsletter

Leon returns from the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva with a concerning update: so-called efficiency measures are cutting special rapporteur reporting with a blunt, one-size-fits-all approach that threatens the most urgent human rights mandates. He also shares news of a landmark European Court of Human Rights case on religious symbols in Greek courtrooms and his published response to Alliance Defending Freedom International in the Oxford Human Rights Hub.

Then Gary speaks with two humanist legislators: Lizzi Collinge, Labour MP and chair of the UK All Party Parliamentary Humanist Group, and Heidi Nordby Lunde, Director of Politics at the Norwegian Humanist Association and former Conservative MP for 12 years — on what it means to legislate by humanist values, and how to meet rising religious nationalism with firmness and kindness.

In this episode we cover

  • Leon's Human Rights Council debrief - worrying trends in special rapporteur reporting
  • The Greek courtroom icons case at the European Court of Human Rights
  • What it means to be a humanist legislator
  • Humanists as a political constituency - and why the "belief" in freedom of religion or belief keeps getting forgotten
  • The rise of religious nationalism in the UK, Norway, and beyond
  • How well-funded lobbying groups are deliberately sowing division in democratic societies
  • Why progress isn't inevitable - and why humanists need to keep showing up
  • Join Lizzi & Heidi at the World Humanist Congress 2026 in Ottawa 

References

Follow Humanist International

This podcast is produced by Humanise Live.

Start your podcast today, visit: humanise.live


🎶Music: Horizon by Simon Folwar

Podcast transcripts are AI-generated and may contain errors or omissions. They are provided to make our content more accessible, but should not be considered a fully accurate record of the conversation.

Welcome And Guest Preview

Leon Langdon

Welcome to Freedom of Thought, a podcast by Humanists International. With me, Leon Langdon. And me, Gary McClelland. Each week we'll be discussing news, research, policy developments, and campaigns related to freedom of thought around the world. And we also have the privilege of bringing you conversations with humanist leaders and thought leaders from around the world. And in fact, this week, Gary has just concluded this is a look behind the sort of magic of the podcasting. He's already done the interview with two incredible guests. If you want to tell our listeners about that.

Gary McLelland

Yes, this week we had the pleasure of interviewing Lizzi Collinge, who is a Labour MP and chair of the UK Parliamentary Humanist Group, and Heidi Nordby Lunde, who is the current director of politics and public relations at the Norwegian Humanist Association. But before that, spent 12 years as a member of the Norwegian Parliament with the Conservative Party.

Human Rights Council Worrying Trends

Leon Langdon

I think it's really interesting to get, I'm excited for listeners to hear it. It's so interesting hearing the political take of people who are and have been really deeply involved in the legislative process and in that world, which is frankly something I'm relatively unfamiliar with. We do lobbying but very much at the kind of international level rather than national level. And I think hearing people guided by humanist argues at that level is great.

Gary McLelland

Yeah, it was a really fascinating conversation. I think people will enjoy it. And of course, as I mentioned later, but if you want to hear more from Heidi and Lizzi, which I'm sure you will, you can do so by getting a ticket to the World Humanist Congress because there will be a panel of humanist legislators, including Heidi and Lizzi and others, talking about their experiences and their advice to us as humanist legislators, especially in this time of religious nationalism and challenges to human rights that we are experiencing at the moment. Which actually uh brings us on to an update maybe from you, Leon. Last week on the podcast, you I think had just landed, or at least we're in Geneva and we were talking about the Human Rights Council and the work that you do there. So you're now back in London. Tell us how did the Human Rights Council go?

Lawfare Case On Courtroom Icons

Leon Langdon

Well, uh at the time of recording, we're still waiting to see the exact outcomes. There are some worrying trends, honestly. So anyone following our social medias will see in the coming days we will be signing a couple of letters critical of some of the outcomes of the Human Rights Council or some of the trends we're seeing along with NGO colleagues. One of them is that in the attempt at what they call sort of efficiency measures and rationalization measures, that we're seeing countries calling on less, calling for less or fewer rather investigations and reports from special rapporteurs. I understand the rationale. I think most of his civil society colleagues understand it. One of the issues is that they're taking a one-size-fits-all approach to that. So saying that every special rapporteur should do half the reporting they're currently doing. As a reminder, special rapporteurs are the sort of UN's independent human rights experts. And one of the big fears around that is that, for example, some mandates, it's not that any are more important, but definitely some are more timely in terms of threats to freedom of expression, for example, cutbacks to the support for human rights defenders, there too, that we've been involved in. Ones on water sanitation, for example, in the context of upcoming negotiations on those issues. And so there is a hammer being taken to it when a more kind of incisive surgeon-like approach would be appreciated. With that said, and I think I said this last week, there was a mood of resilience among a lot of people and definitely a sort of attempt and a real sort of cooperative spirit from a lot of people. So we're hoping that some of the comments will be taken into account, our comments along with that of civil society in this kind of vein. But definitely some worrying trends. It's something we'll be keeping an eye on, but also some hope, as always, when human rights activists and civil society are coming together like that and sharing ideas and things.

Gary McLelland

Thanks, Leona. One of the other things that would be, I think, just worth mentioning while we're recapping recent events. We've talked in the podcast previously about the use of lawfare and litigation, and it's something that we monitor and track is the use of litigation to push back the rights of humanists and human rights. You've just published a blog on an important piece of litigation which is happening in Greece. Could you just give us a brief overview about what is actually going on and what is the blog piece that you've published?

Conway Hall Staff Meeting Behind Scenes

Leon Langdon

Yeah. So the litigation will actually be in Strasbourg, but you're right that it's a Greek case. So it's an organization which are not a member of ours, we're not affiliated with in any way called the Union of Atheists of Greece. Basically, they were taking litigation on a sort of ancillary issue a couple of years ago. And as a side note to that, they said, Oh, actually, we're taking, we they I think they requested that the judge or the judicial branch take down a religious, an orthodox religious icon in the courtroom, to which the judge says no. And they followed through the appeals process in Greece, being stonewalled the entire way. And the European Court of Human Rights, or the highest human rights course court in Europe, has agreed to hear their case on this very specific issue. There are several organizations who've been granted leave to intervene in that case, and to the government of Italy, for example, some Christian groups like the European Center for Law and Justice and Alliance Defending Freedom International, and they have also been engaging in the media sphere. And so for the first time, we've countered that. And we haven't gone so far as to say this is definitely how the court should or will rule or anything like that. We have a level of humility, let's say, on that. But the Oxford Human Rights Hub had published an article from the Senior Council for Alliance Defending Freedom, which, in my opinion, made some erroneous arguments. And so I decided to pen a response. Some of the arguments I won't get too deep into the weeds, but some of the arguments related to what a case from several years ago which looked at crucifixes in Italian classrooms and drew what I thought was a relatively clumsy analogy to the current state or the current case. So was picking apart some of that. So if listeners would like to read further, that's in the Oxford Human Rights Hub in their blog. And it's a real privilege to be publishing that. And I think it's important for our members and honestly for us as an organization as well to be doing that sort of work. And actually, when we think about blogs and op-eds and things like that, it's actually something that's come up bad at our staff meeting, which we've just had, Gary, if you want to tell listeners about that.

Meet Lizzi & Heidi - What Does it Mean to Be a 'Humanist' Legislators

Gary McLelland

That's right. We're actually in the same place for the first time in probably this podcast series, Leon. We're both in Conway Hall, which is an associate of Humanists International. It's really the kind of home of humanism and free thought here in the UK. So yeah, we're here for our staff meeting. So uh every quarter, all the staff of Humanists International from all over the world get together and we do some planning work. We have nice dinners and catch up and do some development work. So we've been really busy. The meeting room that we're in, I hope nobody from Conway Hall is listening to this, but the meeting room that we're in is plastered with post-it notes and flip chart paper and pens and things as we've been mapping out all our different activities for the coming years and uh doing some planning. And actually, one of the funniest moments was just before we went to come and record this podcast was we had boxes and envelopes strewn across the meeting room table because people who are listening to this may have received a copy of the Freedom of Thought Report. The copy that you have received has been carefully and painstakingly packaged up by all the staff at our staff meeting and dropped off at the local post office. So uh there's another look behind the scenes for you. So yeah, it's been really good though. It's been uh very good to spend some time together and be able to yeah, just be together in person and talk about the challenges and opportunities that that lie ahead for us as a team. So I've I've found it really enjoyable.

Leon Langdon

Yeah, it's been great. Thanks, me and Gary, and we can pop over to the interview now.

Gary McLelland

Heidi Nordby Lunde is the Director of Politics and Public Relations at the Norwegian Humanist Association, joining in 2025 after 12 years as a prominent member of the Norwegian Parliament with the Conservative Party. Lizzi Collinge was elected to Parliament in 2024 as the Labour MP for Morecambe and Lunesdale, following nine years as a county councillor. She is the current chair of the Humanist All-Party Parliamentary Group. Thank you both, Heidi and Lizzi, for being part of the Humanists International podcast this week. We're very grateful that you made the time to speak with us today. The first question I would like to ask is what does it actually mean to be a humanist legislator? Is the term humanist and the label that we use actually helpful for as a role in the legislature? Maybe I can come to you first, Heidi.

Heidi Nordby Lunde

Well, thank you for having me and thank you for the question. I think when I started out in parliament, I didn't think of myself as a humanist as such. But obviously, over time, when you reflect upon the issues that you are dealing with, it definitely gives you a firm foundation to promote your own beliefs and it gives you a moral compass when navigating political issues and dilemmas. And because legislators translate kinds of values into policies that matters in people's lives. So you need to know what you're doing and you need to know how this actually connects with the real lives of real people. And it's also a reminder why you're there, because you can always be swallowed up in the swamp of issues that you are supposed to deal with, but actually prioritize at putting the most important issues first. Thanks, Haiti. What do you think, Lizzi?

Lizzi Collinge MP

So I think in terms of the label humanist, I do spend a bit of time explaining what humanism is. And then I get a lot of people going, oh, I think I'm a humanist. And I think, oh, we've got a quiz on the website. Would you like to have a look? And I think every politician has values that inform what they do as a legislator. Every politician brings their whole self, I think, to their job of legislating. And I think having a framework around which to think through quite sometimes quite tricky decisions is really important. Now, I've identified as a humanist for a while, but I've been a humanist much, much longer than I've identified as a humanist. And actually, it was when I was coming in doing my first speech in parliament that I thought I need to put some sort of framework around why I'm here and how I'll approach being a member of parliament. And that's why I mentioned being a humanist, because I think actually my constituents and my colleagues, knowing that is part of the basis upon which I make decisions, is important and helpful for them.

Heidi Nordby Lunde

If I may, I think what makes this more difficult for us is as you said, Elise, that a lot of people want to try to explain humanism, they say, Oh, I think I'm a humanist. But I think we tend to take some of these values for granted and forgetting that some people have actually stood up for these values since the Enlightenment in order to create the world that we see today with the values that we appreciate. We have been in a debate here in Norway around what is Norwegian values, and a lot of people identify them as Christian values. I would say that Solobas has been fighting against burning women as witches, persecuting unmarried women, persecuting people that have children without out of wedlock, persecuting the LGBT community. These values aren't haven't been universal, and they certainly haven't been Christian values. I usually try to voice, have a voice for those people that haven't had a voice in these debates. And no, I'm glad if you'd identify as a humanist today, but it hasn't come for free, and it has become because some people fought for it.

Humanists As A Political Constituency

Lizzi Collinge MP

Heidi makes a really good point there, actually. And when I started out in party politics, I never thought I would have to be defending really basic liberal democratic values in my own country and abroad. I didn't think I would have to be defending really fundamental concepts of democracy, and yet here we are. So Heidi's point about the fact that this has come from a fight is really important. And the fact is that it is an ongoing fight. I'm 43 and I feel like I've had the luxury of until kind of 15 years ago, things were getting better, things were progressing, and then you fall into the trap of thinking that progression is inevitable, and progression isn't inevitable. As Heidi said, it's there because people fought for it. And I think that again, going back to my values and my beliefs makes me remember that and makes me able to get down to the brass tacks of what the implications of a policy might be, because sometimes what I see is something that on its own looks perhaps not too problematic. But if you delve down into the underpinning values that are promoting that are underneath that view or that policy, you get to quite a worrying place. And I think thinking a bit more deeply about it is really important.

Gary McLelland

That's really interesting, Lizzi. We've been talking in the team about that very issue. I think I was just reflecting on I've been working at Humanists International for nine years now. And at the beginning, the idea of having to explain the concept of human rights from first principles as why it's a good idea was kind of bizarre because it was a very politically accepted point of view and frame of reference. And it feels like now we have ended up being radicals from the point of view of believing in universal human rights and having to defend those first principles arguments, which I guess is a position none of us hoped to be in, but nonetheless it's one that we must react to and rise up against. I was just wondering, just a sort of follow-up thought from me on the point of view of humanists in public life and politics, thinking in the context of we've just published the Freedom of Thought report, which identifies some of the challenges, risks, discrimination faced by humanists around the world, but contrasting that with the fact that polls consistently show that non-religious people in the UK, for example, are a majority, I think in all parts of the UK. And I know that in Norway, the Norwegian Humanist Association has just passed a milestone of 180,000 members, which means that some significant percentage of the Norwegian population are members of the Humanist Association, which is obviously an incredible achievement. But given those two facts and given your role as legislators, is the is making the case that humanists are a constituency and that they are a group within society that should be contended with by politicians and by governments and political parties? Is that an argument that we can make, we should make? Is it a useful one to make? Maybe, Lizzi, what do you think?

Lizzi Collinge MP

So I think we do have to make the case that humanists are a group of constituents in politics. It does matter that you can group people together and you can show that there is a group of voters, group of the population, for whom this really matters. And I think one of the continual fights that I have is that religious groups get treated as units of population or voters, even when there's a lot of differentiation, even within a religious group, and homogenizing them is not very helpful. But then people like us who have humanist belief are not thought of in the same way. We're not thought of as a group of constituents, and that is problematic, and it's something I come up against again and again. So we talk about free freedom of religion or belief in the UK, but sometimes the all belief bit seems to drop off, you know, and sometimes the engagement from political parties, from government tends to focus solely on religious groups rather than religion or belief groups. And I didn't actually come into politics do it interfaith stuff. That wasn't something that was high up on my list. But the more I do it, the more I find it is important. One to show the diversity of belief and to not have people just lumped into one pot or another, because I think that's actually really unhelpful. And then what you can also get is self-appointed community leaders who say they speak for a whole group of people, and actually they really don't because within that group there's a huge amount of diversity, but also to have that element of belief that is not religious there and respected and thought about, and the fact that it is a majority view as well, it's a majority view known about, I think is really important, and again, it's something that I didn't really expect to be having to do, but I found that I've had to, uh, and I find that quite interesting, even though we live in a country with an established church, so the United Kingdom has an established church, we have absolutely within legislation prioritization for one form of Christianity, but even so wasn't expecting to be doing that.

Responding To Religious Nationalism

Heidi Nordby Lunde

It's interesting how you frame that because I sometimes think of this as a feminist that you are defined out of not being a man. And it's the same, you are a non-believer, as if believing something is, first of all, that they believe in something and you don't. I firmly believe in human rights. I firmly believe in the world I see, I firmly believe in rationality. And I think that makes it really complicated for people because it's a longer train of thought than just saying that you believe in an almighty God that created the world, and after that the world makes sense in its nonsensical way. And we all have a need to believe in something, and I think we all have a need for traditions, and I think that is what the humanist organization and association can deliver to people. But I think we need to be more vocal, that we actually believe in something, and it's not just an opposition to religion or opposition to the church, because it's really not about that, for at least not for me. I think we all need to believe in something, but I choose to believe in us as human beings, and that means that we need to be empowered in order to repair the world that we see around us, and we can't just expect something divine to do that for us. We actually have to take responsibility to do it ourselves, and that's really reaffirming and reassuring because I'm pretty sure the world that we see around us today, we really need hope and we need to believe that we actually can change and change for the good.

Gary McLelland

One of the things we do see in the world around us today is a rise of religious nationalism in various forms in different parts of the world. And I'm curious, maybe coming to you first, Lizzi, if you can give us an insight into your perspective on this, thinking maybe internationally, obviously, but also in the UK. And I guess what is the humanist response to this challenge from within side of politics?

Lizzi Collinge MP

That's a really good question. So internationally, I think there's no doubt we're seeing the rise of religious nationalism in places where we haven't seen it before. It's not that it's it had gone away at any point. It's been a feature of the world for a very long time, but we are seeing it in places that we're not used to seeing it. We're seeing it in the United Kingdom. We're seeing it where not just Christian nationalism, but ethno-nationalism as well, where we have members of an opposition party who are saying that people who are not white or that her their parents were born abroad cannot be English and cannot be British. And that's horrifying to me, really truly horrifying, that that is even considered okay to say. We know people have thought it, but at one point or another there was a sense of shame attached to that belief, and certainly publicly it wouldn't be expressed, and now it is being expressed, and that's really worrying. And I think as well, tying back to Heidi's earlier comments about the lens of feminism, this isn't just about religiousness, nationalism, or ethnicity, this is also about gender. We have the Reform Party in the United Kingdom who have members such as Danny Krueger who take a very traditional view of women's roles, who have views about women not forced to have children, they wouldn't say that, but being encouraged to have children. And saying it's a bad thing that essentially white Christian women are not having enough children, it's reminiscent of some really unpleasant times in our history, and it is something that really concerns me. And as a humanist response, I think first of all, the joy of being around humanists is in my experience a very kind people. And I think kindness is something that is a bit underrated. Now, I'm the sort of person who can get very agitated and make, you know, big sweeping speeches in the house. But actually, I think what encourages people together and into shared values is kindness. So I think sometimes meeting that wall of hate with kindness, particularly when we're talking about the sort of people who might be following that, I think that is really important. We can be really firm about our values and what is okay and what's not, while still treating with kindness people who might be vulnerable to that. And actually, what I have seen in my community is people in positions of power trying to recruit people with different vulnerabilities. And that's a pattern that we see again and again. And I think what we've also seen is a bit of a shift in what's called the Overton window in political theory, but also, you know, we can just think about it what's the middle ground, and we've seen that shift a bit. And what's been really worrying is what were mainstream parties. I'm thinking particularly of the conservatives now, where we've had a really strong First one nation approach to conservatism in this country, which it might not be my cup of tea, but actually it's a really decent, respectable political position to take. And there are still conservative MPs who take that position, but the leadership unfortunately hasn't. And the leadership and some members of the Conservative Party are going outside what most I think decent conservatives would go for. And I think that's worrying as well because as someone who's on the left, I actually think having a good opposition is really important. I think having people from the centre right having good representation is really important. And so to see that sort of consensus, at least around the middle, about some shared values break down is really worrying to me. It that really worries me.

Heidi Nordby Lunde

That's an interesting stance. I was watching the film with what's his name? Uh Kambo Bach about Brexit, where uh he plays Alistair, one in the Brexit campaigns that did some of the analysis behind the Brexit. He's Dominic Cummings. And there's a scene with him when he's out knocking doors and he's talking to an elderly couple, and they are really living in an area that has changed a lot. The kids are muddad, nobody's coming back, the jobs are gone. And they are saying that the local community and the faces of the people has also changed. And they are really adamant about saying that we are not racist, but our lives have changed and it's not coming back for us. And this is where I think you can see that he reflects that it's about loss and it's about people that have lost their lives to changes that they cannot control themselves. But I think people like myself, who's been on the winning side of globalization, who's been on the winning side of progress ideology, on the winning side of more human rights, more LGBTQ rights, we maybe have the tendency to be on our high moral stand when we meet people that are doesn't agree with us or for some reason wants to question some of our beliefs. And I think that not meeting them with kindness and not meeting them with trying to listen to what they are actually trying to tell us has led to some of the radicalization that we see today. So I think it's really important to try to listen to what people really mean when they are criticizing us or criticizing what we are trying to do, because I think that has led to some of the backlash that we are now seeing. But you talked about religious nationalism. We have an interesting situation here in Norway because we are seeing the Norwegian church be maybe a kind of an ally against that because they don't want to be a Trojan horse for nationalists that are using Christian values in order to try to float their own values that the church are not supporting at all. And the Norwegian church, they actually last October they issued a public pardon to the LGBT community for the harm and shame that the church has brought to the community. And I think that they really dislike some of the groups that are now attacking LGBTQ rights using Christian values and using the church to do that. I think this is a time where we can go and find maybe unusual allies as well to stand up for common values that now people, some people may say that they are Christian values. We will say that they are humanist values. But if we can agree that they are universal human rights, maybe we have a great starting point for a conversation and also that can roll back some of the radicalization that we are seeing.

Tracking Funded Division And Lobbying

Lizzi Collinge MP

I think Heidi makes some really interesting points there. And I think that bringing together unusual allies is absolutely necessary. And actually, we have seen the same in the UK where mainstream Christian groups have said, whoa, this is not what Jesus said. This Norry said, and Heidi's points as well about people feeling left behind, but also insecure. So there's a really direct correlation between economic insecurity, economic problems, and fascism. That's really quite a clear correlation. And I campaigned for Romaine during the Brexit referendum, and I recognise the story that Heidi tells. I knocked on someone's door and they said, you know, we're voting leave. But we're not racists, and they really wanted us to know that. And I think the biggest strategic mistake of the Romaine campaign was the way it talked down to people. Now, a lot of local campaigns didn't do that, but I think there was an element of we know best, and if you disagree with us, you're just a thick racist. And that is probably given the margin, I think that's probably what lost it in reality. So yeah, totally agree with Heidi on that.

Why Global Humanist Gatherings Matter

Gary McLelland

Just to pick up on that point a bit further, some of the work that Humanists International does at the European Union and other forums is opposition monitoring along with other NGOs to try and track vast swathes of funding that come from evangelical groups in the US, other shadowy sources in Europe. And one of the points I tried to make as well, which I think is from the same point of view of kindness, is there is an organized lobby, very well funded, which is trying to artificially divide our societies. So it's not the case that I think a lot of the rhetoric that we're seeing in countries is a naturally evolving political discourse. I think it's purposefully being sown this division to try and draw us apart. And one of the things I'm very happy to tell our listeners and viewers is that Heidi and Lizzi will be on a panel with other humanist legislators at this year's World Humanist Congress in Ottawa and August. So you'll be able to hear them talk much more eloquently about their work and their views. But I guess one of the things that kind of gives me hope is that perhaps we as humanists and you guys as humanist legislators from different political parties, different political philosophies, is that perhaps we can model a type of engagement, a type of discourse, one in which we maybe can agree on the facts and some of the axioms that motivate our politics and probably even agree on the ends that we are hoping to achieve, but perhaps model constructive disagreement on the means to achieve them. So I guess just with that in mind, maybe I could ask you, Heidi, thinking about the World Humanist Congress and international gatherings and things, why is it important for us as humanists to be gathering up and for yourselves as legislators and other people involved in politics and human rights? What is the benefit of us being able to have these international gatherings?

Heidi Nordby Lunde

I think it's in this world of more polarization, it's more important than ever that we come together by party sessions or from different countries and gather around the values that we would so much want to promote in all the world. And I just have to compliment you on your uh podcast. I was listening to the podcast where you had the freedom of thought report, and you also have the interview with the human rights activist Mubar Akmala, which was of course very impressive, thought-provoking, and humbling for the rest of us. But he is, for those probably all of the listeners know who he is, but he's the leader of the Humanist Association in Nigeria, and for what he has gone through, he needed an international humanist organization to stand by him when he was prosecuted by the government. And we see that humanists around the world are still in danger, and we need to be there to protect them. So, uh, looking on the picture from the three of us, we are white privileged people in safe countries. Of course, we should use our voice to help others come to the table and also speak their cause. So it's more important than ever to come together and discuss these issues. And it's also a good thing to see that we're not alone, to be a part of an international movement that has been standing up for human rights throughout decades and still just acknowledge that our work isn't done and that we are still needed, and that we are more needed now than for many years. And I think just not to spend too much time, but one of my colleagues said that when she joined the Humanites Association here in Norway eight years ago, she felt like she was on the winning team. And right now she feels like it has gone through a backlash. But I tell her that it's like dancing two steps forward and one step back. You are still going forward, and we need to remember that to keep hope and to have the idea that we can make a change. And us meeting and discussing these issues is trying to make that change.

Closing Thanks And Listener Callouts

Lizzi Collinge MP

And I think from my point of view, as Heidi said, I'm coming from a very privileged position where we do have an awful lot of freedom in the United Kingdom and an awful lot of power, both economic and political. And so to be able to get around a table with humanists around the world to actually understand what's going on and to form those bonds of solidarity is very important because it's one thing to read about it in a report, it's quite another thing to hear, as we did at the all-party parliamentary group, from people like Mubarak, who have suffered this persecution. And what I really like about the Congress, Gary can tell me exactly what the title is, but it's about action and it's about doing stuff, which is something that I really love because there's no point in just talking about things. You've got to do stuff, you've got to make change, and that's what I think will be so lovely about the Congress, as well as just being around nice people, because I've never been to a humanist event where everyone has not been lovely.

Gary McLelland

So, everybody, if you want to come and hear more from Heidi and Lizzi, get your ticket today for the World Humanist Congress in Ottawa this August. And all that's left for me is to thank Heidi and Lizzi for giving us their time today. I look forward to spending more time with you at the World Humanist Congress in Ottawa. On behalf of all of us at Humanists International, thank you so much for all the work you do.

Lizzi Collinge MP

Thank you, Gary. Thank you.

Leon Langdon

If you found this episode useful, please share it with others. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and leave us a rating and a five-star review. It makes a big difference in helping new listeners find the show. If there's a topic you'd like us to cover or someone you'd like to suggest as a guest, you can contact us via the links in the show notes. To find out more or join Humanist International, visit humanist.international and subscribe to our newsletter most importantly. The big thanks to all the teams at Humanist International as well as to the team at Humanize Live, including James, our producer. Thank you for listening to this episode of Freedom of Thought.

Head Shot

Gary McLelland

Host
Head Shot

Leon Langdon

Host
Head Shot

Humanise Live

Producer
Head Shot

Heidi Nordby Lunde

Guest
Head Shot

Lizzi Collinge MP

Guest

Podcasts we love

Check out these other fine podcasts recommended by us, not an algorithm.