Freedom of Thought by Humanists International

Growing Humanism Worldwide - Membership, Grants and Community with Javan Lev Poblador

• Humanise Live • Season 1 • Episode 7

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Gary and Leon open with updates from New York and the closing days of the UN Human Rights Council — including concerns about efficiency measures cutting special rapporteur reporting, and urgent debates around the crisis in Iran. Gary reflects on Humanists International's statement, reaffirming that concern for human rights in Iran and concern about US military action are grounded in the same principles of international law.

This week's guest is Javan Lev Poblador, Membership Manager at Humanists International, overseeing 120 member organisations across 60 countries. Javan shares his journey from a Mormon household in the Philippines to co-founding Humanist Alliance Philippines International (HAPI) and gives an inside look at how Humanists International supports its members through advocacy, training, and a grants programme that reached over 300,000 people in 2025.

In this episode we cover

  • The UN Human Rights Council — efficiency measures and the Iran urgent debates
  • Humanists International's statement on US military action in Iran
  • Lawfare, amicus briefs, and why Humanists International is entering the legal arena
  • Javan's journey from Mormonism to humanism in the Philippines
  • How Humanists International supports members across 60 countries
  • The grants programme — impact from Nigeria to Peru to the Philippines
  • Membership growth in Africa, Latin America, and Asia
  • How to join or start a humanist organisation

Further reading and references

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This podcast is produced by Humanise Live.

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🎶Music: Horizon by Simon Folwar

Podcast transcripts are AI-generated and may contain errors or omissions. They are provided to make our content more accessible, but should not be considered a fully accurate record of the conversation.

Welcome And Team Updates

Leon Langdon

Welcome to Freedom of Thought, a podcast by Humanists International. With me, Leon Rangdant, and me, Gabby McLilland. Each week we'll be discussing news, research, policy developments, and campaigns related to freedom of thought around the world. Well, Gary, it's been a week since I've seen you. I've been off. How have you been? What's been going on at Humanists International? Fill me in as much as anyone else.

UN Human Rights Council Pressures

Gary McLelland

I've been good. We obviously were in London last week for our staff development days, where we got the whole team together for a couple of days in London in Conway Hall, which many of our listeners will be aware of as the home of humanism and free thought in the UK, a massive secular hall that's been there for I think 200 years, which is an associate of Humanists International. But we were there to do some planning, some team building activities, talking about the planning the work of the year ahead. And I think probably like quite a lot of the team, it was a very fun and engaging two days, and we went for dinner and everything, but I was completely exhausted. I think everybody by the end of the two days was just feeling really tired. Yeah, it's been a bit of kind of recovery time over the weekend, and yeah, we're just straight back into it this week. So we've been having some meetings about the World Humanist Congress, and hopefully in the next coming weeks, we'll be announcing a range of exciting speakers for that. A lot of the kind of day-to-day work of the organization continues. So we're now in preparation of our annual accounts and preparation for the General Assembly, thinking ahead to the next board meeting. So yeah, it all just continues. What about you, Leon? Where in the world are you this week?

Leon Langdon

I have been in New York for the last week. I went basically straight from Conway Hall amidst the tiredness that Gary's talking about that you're talking about to a long flight. And I'm just too tall for planes. I really need to be getting at least premium economy these days, is what I'm realizing. But the charity sector salaries won't allow that. So yeah, I've been in New York for six days, taking a little bit of time off here and there, but then popping in for some civil society coordinating meetings with colleagues, as well as a couple of stuff internally. But like I asked, I haven't been following too closely. Quite right.

Gary McLelland

Some downtime is definitely needed. And you've obviously been at the Human Rights Council recently. I think that's kind of wrapping up at the moment. Any sort of takeaways as the Human Rights Council comes to an end?

Iran Crisis And Humanist Principles

Leon Langdon

There's a couple of interesting things. I mean, one is an attempt, which is understandable. We've been very closely watching the attempt to rationalize and make more efficient the UN and what that looks like in practice, along with civil society colleagues, are concerned that it's happening in a little bit of a haphazard way. So, for example, there's been a reduction in reporting requirements for different mandates, and obviously the UN has a really important investigatory role. I think there's a sort of haphazard way with which they're targeting which reports are going to not be taking place over the next couple of years and things like that, which is a bit of a shame. And then I think, as well as that, there's also a couple of urgent debates happening. So they're a function that happens on top of a normal human rights council session. Interestingly, one was called by the Gulf Cooperation Council as well as Jordan, referring to Iran, to Iran's unprovoked attacks against them, which was an interesting way of framing what was happening in the Middle East, avoid from the context of Israel and the US. And then one subsequently called by Iran in terms of attacks on civilian infrastructure. Obviously, important to be talking about those things, but in the context of the budget crisis, that now means that the next human rights council session in June is actually going to be shorter as a result of these debates. So you're really seeing the sort of zero sum of the system being worked out.

Gary McLelland

Yeah, that's really interesting. And I guess on the situation in Iran, I think it's worth acknowledging for our members and our listeners that um we put out a statement on the situation in Iran. I think it's such a fast moving and evolving situation that I don't think we could give much in the way of kind of detailed ongoing analysis of the situation that's happening. But I guess it's worth maybe just pointing out a few of the points that we make in the statement. I guess the first one to say is that humanists international and humanists generally are not, by their nature, pacifists, in the sense that, you know, there are obviously situations in which statecraft and action, violent action, is sometimes necessary and proportionate and in the greater good and so on. I mean, these are difficult concepts for us as humanists, I think, to think about, given our commitment to peace and cooperation and human solution making. But I guess I think the point that we're trying to make in this statement is that even within the need for military action, there are rules. There are rules that have been set down in the Geneva Conventions, in the various human rights treaties and articles and in conventions about the limit of violent action in military force, for example, um, you know, to prevent uh military action against civilian infrastructure, energy infrastructure, schools, hospitals, and so on. And, you know, I guess it's again to me slightly frustrating to have to go back to these kind of first principles arguments. But one of the very basic things to say is that given previous wars that the world has experienced, the reason for these treaties is to place a limit upon governments so that their actions can conform to some very basic minimum standards of not attacking hospitals and schools and civilian energy infrastructure. And you know that military action should be ideally justifiable and it should be proportionate, of course, and also that there should be some level of democratic accountability nationally, internationally, through the Security Council and so on and so forth. And I guess what we're saying in our statement is that none of these basic requirements seem to have been met. And also, I guess the other point that I feel is almost like a complete dereliction of the spirit of these treaties, that there should be any sense of proportionality, accountability, transparency about these military actions. So yeah.

Women’s Rights At The UN

Leon Langdon

No, I think you're right. For our listeners, this podcast takes a couple of days to come out, so anything we say now is probably not going to be evergreen and we'll probably already be behind the news cycle just by the nature of how quick it's happening. But no, of course, you know, like the statement said, the concern about human rights in Iran and a really awful theocratic regime where we've had humanists at risk there, we've supported cases on death row in Iran, we've consistently spoken out against the government of Iran. But a concern for those issues and a concern about this US action are not mutually exclusive and they're grounded in the same principles of international law, same principles of whatever even about international law. They're fundamentally concerned about people and humanity and the people who are going to be hurt, be it by an Iranian regime or by US missiles, US and Israeli missiles. And of course, there are times that peacekeeping or those sorts of forces are necessary or that kind of thing, but that there are mechanisms for that. And unfortunately, like you say, history tells us that often these sorts of unilateral actions just they don't go very well, very frankly. And people are hurt by it. And I think that's where the concern of Humanist International and the wider humanist community is ultimately grounded in that concern for people whose rights and whose lives are being trampled and upended and taken away from them one way or another.

Gary McLelland

Yeah, it's a very it's a very depressing series of developments in the international sphere. However, tell us, Leon, what else are you doing in New York with your time off?

Lawfare And Amicus Briefs Explained

Leon Langdon

There's two things. One is I've been keeping an eye on, now I haven't been a huge part of it, but we've been keeping an eye on the Commission status of women, which we've historically been much more active in than unfortunately time has allowed this year. Within that, we've seen so much progress over the years, over 70 sessions for women's rights, for language and gender being mainstreamed across other UN bodies. The ends of this session, the outcomes were good, but that was very much in spite of particularly US action on that front. There are many better placed people to talk about it, but there was a lot of really terrible attempts by the US to undermine agreed conclusions on this, to undermine, for example, things like the fact that there is no definition of gender at the UN. It's not defined to men and women. And within that, the US tried to sort of rewrite history on that. And similarly, on, for example, mainstreaming of sexual reproductive health and rights, Bob the autonomy. And there was a lot of friction there between states and a lot of civil society colleagues, particularly members of the Women's Rights Caucus, worked incredibly hard to keep things the way they are and to push things forward. But the context was really sort of worrying. And I think it's safe to say we'll be back there because we're seeing this huge resistance to values that humanists really care about in terms of women's rights, reproductive rights. And I think it's a real worry, unfortunately, and the hard bring of what's to continue to come of the US and the UN. The second thing why I've been taking time off is I had an exam. So I was sitting at the what they call the multi-state professional responsibility exam, the US, which is hopefully my last step to becoming a New York attorney, which is something that is a sort of side project. I started last year, I guess, as much as anything. My background is in law. I studied law and my undergrad, and then I sort of went a different way in terms of did a master's in international relations while a lot of my friends went and became barristers and solicitors in Ireland or the UK. I just sort of realized how helpful it would be to be a lawyer while doing this work and the sort of authority that that gives, rightfully or wrongfully.

Gary McLelland

Amazing. And I think that just a reminder for anybody who didn't know the news that last year Leon decided in his free time to sit the New York bar exam and start his journey towards becoming a lawyer. And I think it's a really interesting time. I mean, as you'll know, Leon, we had a big discussion at our strategy meeting in Ottawa last year with the Board of Humanists International. And one of the things that we've been acknowledging for quite a long time is the use of lawfare, as we call it, by groups opposed to humanist values and actively trying to unpick human rights, particularly in Europe and within the Council of Europe region. And one of the things that we've um started to orient ourselves towards is the idea that we might like to be involved in litigation, probably not directly, but through the use of what's called amicus briefs and participating in that process of judicial decision making by providing information. But maybe you could just give our members and listeners just a kind of quick snapshot. You know, what is this idea of amicus briefs and how can humanists international help in this judicial process?

Introducing Javan Lev Poblador

Leon Langdon

Yeah, so at many courts, usually we're talking about national sort of supreme courts or the highest courts, which we obviously don't get involved in. That's sort of our members' prove, whether they do or don't. And I know some of our American members, for example, have been very active at the US Supreme Court, but also at regional courts. So for example, the Inter-American Court of Human Rights or the European Court of Human Rights, there are these things called amicus briefs or third-party interventions. So when there's a case that makes it that far, you as a individual or in this case as an organization, we can go to the court. We are positioned to help you, but also that we have an interest in helping you. We have some sort of care about the outcome of the case. You can't necessarily pretend to be disinterested when you're not. So, for example, when there are certain civil society groups who are bringing cases when they're trying to define freedom of religion or belief more narrowly than it is, whether it's the exclusion of secular and humanist voices as part of that right, be it the use of religious freedom language to undermine sexual reproductive rights, all of these things are against international law, but because of the power and money behind these groups, they will be taking these cases. And so I think the consensus internally is we are small, but where we can position ourselves strategically and tactically to respond, that is a good use of time and resources, hopefully, minimal enough resources due to this long history that we have. Hopefully, my legal qualification will help a little bit and we'll get better at these as we go. So it's very much in its infancy at the moment. We've applied to the European Court of Human Rights for one of these for the first time ever. So we'll see whether that's accepted, we'll see what that actually entails, and then position ourselves long-term. But I think it also speaks to the capture of civic space as well. This was traditionally something done by, you know, human rights NGOs. And while a lot of these organizations claim to be human rights NGOs, the ultimate truth is that they are not using, they're sort of using the language of human rights in their favor, but actually using it to undermine universal, indivisible human rights.

Gary McLelland

Yeah, it's a very worrying time. And I think, like you say, a lot of our members are involved in monitoring and sometimes engaging with these legal um battles, particularly in the United States. You know, I know um American Humanist Association and American atheists are doing a massive amount of work to track what's happening on a state and federal level. And yeah, it's I think it's very good that we're able to try to offer some resistance to the unpicking of various human rights. That probably is a good time to bring in our guest for this week. Our guest is coming from the Humanists International team this week. We have Javin Lev Poblador, who is the membership manager at Humanists International, where he oversees all of our global members and associates. Javin joined Humanists International as the Young Humanists International Coordinator and social media consultant in 2021. He's also the former chief executive of Humanists Alliance Philippines International or Happy. He has extensive experience in community building, campaigning, and in areas of environmental conservation, climate justice, human rights, and secular education. Welcome, Javen.

Javan Lev Poblador

Hi everyone. Thanks for having me. It feels for real to be welcome to this world's famous humanist podcast.

Gary McLelland

We're very glad you can be here, especially after we've spent such a nice couple of days together in London. Javen, tell us a bit about your background or tell our members and listeners a bit about your background and how you came to be here at Humanists International.

Being Non-Religious In The Philippines

Javan Lev Poblador

Oh yeah, sure. Absolutely. It all sounds back way back. I guess like everyone probably listening and most humanists as well. I grew up in a very religious household. I am actually an ex-Mormon or from the Church of Latter-day Saints here in the Philippines. It was actually a good experience that we've had, but growing up, there are always questions, curiosity, always comes in. You started asking questions to church leaders, and some of those questions can never be answered. So you started to peer away and look for answers on different aspects outside of the Bible, outside of the Book of Mormon. And one thing led to another, you start to drift away from the church. But it goes without saying, though, that it is a long, lengthy process. You know, imagining growing up in a church since childhood and starting to doubt that it is, you feel worried as well if you're making the right decisions. Sometimes there will be days I would be testing my faith quote and quote. If you know, certain things, if I skip church, would things be different? If I stop praying before an exam, would my scores be lower? But all things leads eventually graduating to high school, eventually became an atheist. I wouldn't say probably that I was a humanist back then, or probably I haven't heard about the term humanism. Humanism actually is quite a Western term. I would say if you're in the Philippines, we've not heard of that. Agnosticism, atheism was kind of the term that we use here. And then I've just been active with community work and then started joining organizations as well with conservation work, um, with the environment, helping out younger people, finding out their communities. And there was a time where eventually a group of atheists back in university wanted to do more rather than just hanging out and drinking alcohol, that we wanted to form a real good organization where we can do more to help other people. So that's how I ended up in Happy or at the Humanist Alliance Philippines International.

Leon Langdon

That's great to hear about your journey, Javen. I guess fast-forwarding a couple of years, how is it for humanists, atheists, agnostics, whatever the word being used is, how is it for the non-religious in the Philippines at the moment, amidst political strife and all else?

Supporting Members Across 60 Countries

Javan Lev Poblador

I guess we do have the privilege, I would say, that in our constitution there is a stricter sense of separation of church and state. But the colonization of 300 years by Spain, also in other countries, didn't help. So our government is still deeply rooted with religion or other faith based as well that came sprouting out even in the near 20th century. So a lot of the things that we've discussed within the government, within the communities are all rooted in religion. Just to give you an example, it's within the Vatican and then the Philippines that are the last remaining countries that have not legalized divorce. So it is a very long process that we have here. But as an atheist, humanist, agnostic, we do kind of sense that there is acceptance, but that is also coming in a place of privilege in other communities, especially in far-flung areas in the Philippines, there is still quite a stigma. And you could be outed in your families, you could also be cut off as well with connections, with friends, uh, with communities, if they found out that you're non-religious. Yeah.

Gary McLelland

Thanks, Javen. Obviously, all of the members and associates that will listen to this podcast will know you very well. But thinking about maybe people that are listening to this podcast who haven't really engaged with Humanists International, they're not part of a humanist organization in their own country, can you just give us a kind of overview? Like what's your role? How do you help the members and associates of Humanists International all over the world to engage and cooperate with each other? What kind of activities do we do?

Grant Funding for Real-World Change

Javan Lev Poblador

Yeah, for sure. I'm glad that you asked it, Gary. As the membership manager now of Humanist International and being within the organization for about five years already. So a huge chunk of my role is looking after 120 member organizations in around 60 countries worldwide. And that is ensuring that everyone is engaged with each other, that they are successful. They are also sustainable as humanist organizations. As what we always would like to say, it our members is the absolute heart of the movement. Because, you know, honestly, without them, we wouldn't exist since we've been founded way back in 1952. You know, we're founded by our members, and they remain the global voice of this community. And as part of that, as a part of treasuring our members, we absolutely wanted to make sure that they are the forefront of this global humanist movement. And part of things where we wanted to make sure that they are successful or sustainable, it could range from a whole lot of activities that we have. One of which, what Liam probably have already mentioned in this podcast and a lot of our articles that we have on our website, is that we involve them with advocacy issues. And sometimes coming from a smaller country, they probably would have difficulty with doing it by themselves. But with us here, connecting them with a much bigger institution, they would find themselves that their voice are much more amplified. Another part is we also offer trainings, workshops, whether in writing grants, helping them out with financial management, member engagement, with the universal periodic review process, and all of that. So especially if we have bigger and much established organizations, we connect them to fledgling organizations or from organizations that has just started and to hopefully learn from each other. But one thing though that we are most proud of is the grants program that we have that we can offer to our members and associates, especially in developing countries. Yep.

Leon Langdon

I think our grants program really goes underspoken about, under talked about. I think it's a really important tool. And I think Gary and I are constantly also talking in the wider trend of declining civic space, the shuddering of or the reduction. Of a lot of aid budgets internationally. Could you maybe talk about some projects or the impact that you see for our members in terms of what they do with our grants and what that actually looks like?

Javan Lev Poblador

I mean, the grants program, we've been running that for so many years. And we're lucky that we have supporters that we can't keep continue running the program. And also just a shout-out as well. If anybody listening continue to support us, please do. But yes, the grants program is something that we really do put in a lot of importance, especially with making sure that organizations are sustainable. So the grants program, how it usually looks like is we run it from year round, and then we invite our members and associates to apply. So it's exclusively for our members only. And then there are certain categories that they can apply for. Categories like if they need help with capacity building, they need to improve their website, projects to helping out young humanists, or projects being run by young humanists, or running a humanist ceremony, or bringing more members within the region together. So there are several categories that they can apply for, and they can apply for which anything is most relevant to them. So I think that's a good kind about our grants program is that we have this kind of flexibility that our members can apply for. But going back to your question, Leanne, about the grants that we have, I don't want to say about any favorites at all. I guess the ones that we do award are actually really good. And we owe it to our members that they are very committed, enthusiastic, and fulfilling, and they're able to fulfill the projects and make it successful as it is. But on the top of my head, though, there are a few projects that really do stand out, especially one example would be in Nigeria. So we have an associate advocacy for alleged witches, and for consecutive years, we've awarded them with a grant so that they are able to fight systemic human rights violations against those accused of witchcraft. And this might come as a surprise, especially for some people in other countries, but accusations of witchcraft and harmful traditions are quite existing in different countries from around the world. And it's not just within Africa, whether in Asia and other regions as well from around the world. So when they apply for the grant, we absolutely know that this is something that we wanted to support with. And we provided with them with about 5,000 to about 7,000 pounds in grant, and they can run the project for about a year. So within running those projects, they've probably been able to help about eight to 10 cases or even more. And understanding that some of those projects have components where they hold workshops within communities so that they can teach them about critical thinking, more about harmful traditional practices, about witchcraft accusations, code and code. So yeah, at the end of the project, it's really nice being in this position. I really like after the end of all projects, thinking and seeing how successful they've been, and especially the testimonies as well for the people that they've managed to help. I think it's really heartwarming to see all of that. So by their project alone, they've seen a decline in violence. Even I can cite one example that one beneficiary's son even wrote a thank you to the organization with advocacy for LH, which is after a local chief apologized for the brutalization of his mother. So these are just a few examples. One another probably would be in Peru. They established the first humanist ceremony in the country. And now religious, non-religious people have meaningful options for weddings and funerals that don't force them into religious services. And another probably would be happy or within in the Philippines, Humanist Alliance, Philippines International. They've transformed a living room into a functional classroom for critical thinking workshops, teaching kids about secular education. And they've served over 5,000 children within that area alone, teaching humanism, safe space, and also providing healthy sex along the way. So there are quite more. We award about eight to ten projects over the years. So if people are interested, they're all posted on our website as well.

unknown

Yeah.

Membership Growth And Sustainability Challenges

Gary McLelland

Thanks, Javen. That's really amazing to get an overview. And I think Leon's right that it's something which I don't feel all of our members, and certainly not beyond that, have a grasp of just the importance and the scale and the size of this program. So I mean, even just over the course of last year, 2025, through our grants program, we reached over 300,000 people through all the various different activities and projects that we funded. You know, over 300,000 people would have been in touch with and connected with and benefited from one of our programs. And that, like you say, can include a whole range of different things. I'm also thinking of podcasts and videos and infographics, educational resources, children's books that we funded over the years. And we do have a link on our website, which we can put in the notes for this podcast, to all of the supported programs that we've done through Humanists International. Okay, I think another thing I want to say as well is that this I think really shows the benefit of the network that we have at Humanists International. As you said, Javen, our members are the heart of what we do at the organization. We were founded by our members. We are primarily a network, a federation of global members. And the way that Humanists International is funded is mainly through its members with some of the additional support. And the way it works is our members pay us generally about 1% of their income, which, if it's a large organization with a lot of income, that can be a lot of money. And we use that to redistribute wealth to parts of the world where they don't have these the fortune to be so well funded. So it's a really, I think, healthy and democratic structure that helps us to redistribute some of these resources around the world. I think that's really interesting. I guess thinking about the network that we have at Humanist International, I wonder if you have any reflections over your five years that you've been with Humanists International, any sort of reflections over the state of our members around the world, maybe how things look in different regions, different parts of the world. Do you have any thoughts on that? You know, maybe places where we would like to see more growth or areas which we've seen very good growth and strength of the membership. Anything like that?

How To Join And Stay In Touch

Javan Lev Poblador

Yeah, absolutely, Gary. I would like to share more about that. So over the course of five years at HI, we've seen growth. I mean, if you look into a graph, you would see that the graph is rising in terms of the numbers of members and associates that we have. It's still continued to rise from every year for about the month where you see about one to two membership applications that we have. And that's another topic about the application process. But in terms of the trend that we have for the membership, we've definitely seen a lot of human organizations that have sprouted, especially within the African region. We receive about 60% of those that have applied every year coming from within Africa. And to put it into perspective, I've actually traveled in Africa, in Uganda, Kenya to visit our members to assess why. What's the reason for the growth within those regions or for those countries? And in a way, found ways to replicate that. So one of the reasons were that I guess there is a rise or there is a movement about people wanting to look into alternative to a religion that they have. And some people cannot find it relevant anymore within their life stance to follow religion. And one of those things is they found comfort more within the humanist movement. So we've seen a lot more people joining humanist organizations and a lot more people creating more humanist organizations as well. But the downside, though, within especially in the global south or within the developing countries, is that in comparison to their Western organizations in the global south or developing countries that are mostly run by volunteers. So, as such, when you talk about volunteers, these are people that are only doing this part-time, spending about two to three hours on their day, even less per week, because you know they have day jobs, they have families, they have other things to look out for. So, in return, they tend to be less sustainable as compared to their Western counterparts, where you've seen organizations sprouting within a year, very enthusiastic, very committed, but after a year, you you get to see them go away somehow. So that is a huge part of our work as well, that we wanted to make sure that they are sustainable. And we're happy now that over the past few years we've provided support for these organizations that we somehow maintain like a baseline of about 120 organizations. We try to maintain that. That's a huge part of my role to hopefully maintain those numbers. Another trend that we have is more and more younger people are joining humanist organizations. You can see that in Latin America, in Asia, in Africa mostly, that they are mostly run by younger people as well.

Gary McLelland

Thank you, Javen. That's really interesting. Just to say thank you very much on behalf of all of our members and associates for all the incredible hard work that you do. But one last very quick question is if there is an organization out there that somehow we haven't been in touch with, or someone that is starting a humanist organization, what should they do to get involved with Humanists International?

Javan Lev Poblador

Well, if your group is ready to take the powerful step towards strengthening the global movement or wanting to join us, all you have to do is just reach out to me at membership at humanists at international. Or if you're already established, you have your group going on, we have our website. You just go ahead and join there, and then we take it from there. We've also taken an extra step as well. If you're a humanist member and individual that you don't know how to start an organization, just reach out to us and you know, who knows? Maybe we can help you connect with people that are also in your country that is also interested in starting that organization. We have a lot of examples in the past where individuals have just joined in to our meetings trying to understand what Humanist International is all about. And from several days or weeks being with us, they found the courage and the enthusiasm to start their own humanist organization. So that's how we wanted to do that. So don't be discouraged. If you're the only person within your organization, reach out to me or to the rest of the staff and let's see what we can do about that. Thank you very much, Jim.

Leon Langdon

Thanks, Jamin. Thank you. If you found this episode useful, please share it with others, subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and leave us a rating and five-star review. It makes a big difference in helping new listeners find the show. If there's a topic you'd like us to cover or someone you'd like to suggest as a guest, you can contact us via the links in the show notes. To find out more or join Humanist International, visit humanist. Thank you to our producer James and the team at Humanize Live and to the team at Humanist International, of course, without whom we'd have very little to talk about. Thank you for listening to this episode of Freedom.

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Gary McLelland

Host
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Leon Langdon

Host
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Humanise Live

Producer
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Javan Lev Poblador

Guest

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