She Shed Unfiltered

Episode 6: Why Women Stop Wanting Sex (with Serena Haines)

• Season 1 • Episode 6

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 56:08

Send us Fan Mail

Why do women stop wanting sex — even when they still love their partner?

And why does desire disappear long before the relationship actually ends?

In this episode of She Shed Unfiltered, Donna and Meg sit down with Serena Haines, Certified Sex Coach (SXI) and Intimacy & Relationship Coach, for one of their most honest conversations yet.

This one goes deeper than libido.

It’s about emotional safety.
 Connection.
 Resentment.
 The mental load.
 And the difference between spontaneous desire and responsive desire.

They unpack:

• Why women often need emotional connection before physical intimacy
 • The difference between spontaneous vs. reactive desire
 • How “bid” connections build (or erode) attraction over time
 • Why exhaustion and resentment quietly shut desire down
 • What foreplay actually means — and why it starts long before the bedroom

This conversation challenges the narrative that something is “wrong” with women when desire shifts.

If you’ve ever thought:

“I love him… so why don’t I want him?”

This episode is honest, validating, and grounded, with practical insights for reconnecting emotionally and physically.

Serenahaines@halifaxsexcoach.com 

https://www.facebook.com/sheshedunfiltered

https://www.instagram.com/sheshedunfiltered


SPEAKER_02

Welcome to She Shed Unfiltered. This is not a podcast for perfect women or polite conversation. This is for the women who've been divorced, dismissed, burnt out, betrayed, and still somehow managed to show up, get shit done, and keep everyone else still alive. There'll be laughter, there may be tears, and you might even say, did they really say that shit? Just real women, real stories, and the kind of honesty that usually happens after the second glass of wine. The first season of She Shed Unfiltered is about the things we learned the hard way. The lessons no one warned us about. The moments that changed us. Whether we were ready or not. I'm Donna. And I'm Meg. Welcome back to She Shed Unfiltered. Today we're talking about something that quietly affects so many relationships. Desire. More specifically, why women stop wanting sex, even when they still love their partner. We announced this episode earlier this week and asked our audience if they had any any questions for Serena. And we were flooded. The themes were consistent. I love him, but I don't want him. Why does this happen? Is this stress? Is it resentment? Is it just time? So today we're unpacking what's really going on underneath desire. Emotionally, mentally, and physiologically.

SPEAKER_03

And we are very excited today to have Serena Haynes joining us, certified sex coach and intimacy and relationship coach, and we're going deeper than libido. Serena Haynes is a sex therapist and relationship specialist who helps women and couples understand the emotional and psychological layers of desire. Her work focuses on intimacy, attachment, mismatched libidos, and the ways long-term relationships shift over time. Serena's known for her grounded, shame-free approach to conversations about sex, blending clinical insight with real, honest, raw dialogue about what actually happens behind closed doors.

SPEAKER_02

And so we're really happy to have Serena back for a second time. Just because we love the conversation so much. So we're gonna do it again. So Serena, when a woman says, I just don't feel like it anymore, what is usually happening?

SPEAKER_00

So many things that is not an easy answer, right? So the it just depends on the age and stage that we're in in our relationships. But generally, what we see when women are saying, like, I don't want it anymore, it's I'm gonna touch on something we were talking about off-air too, and it rolls into this, is just that you're kind of sick of the version of you that you are, you're sick of the version of you that shows up in relationship, and then how you're met in that way, right? So things become pretty stagnant as we go through life and when we're in long-term relationship, and that's normal, right? So I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. That that familiarity is really normal, but familiarity is the antithesis to desire. Like it just kills desire. Familiarity, love needs familiarity. Love needs that. Love needs stability, it needs safety, it needs predictability, but desire needs novelty and excitement and exploration and the unknown, right? And when we're in these long-term relationships, that unknown disappears. We're peeing in front of each other, and everybody knows where everybody's moles are, and we had to pluck hairs from things, and like that person in front of you and the version of you who is that that person's partner just becomes so familiar and we get a little bit bored for lack of a better word, on the surface is what it looks like. But there's so many things that are going on underneath, and in midlife, toss in the fact that you know, our estrogen, which is our give a shit hormone, is decreasing exponentially. Everything we have absorbed for the first maybe 20 years of our relationships, depending on how long you've been together. If you were together in your early 20s or 30s and you kind of got together in that sweet spot of, you know, my hormones are doing what they're supposed to do, and then you traverse through, oh my gosh, now my estrogen and everything is decreasing, we just cannot absorb what we used to absorb. So the annoyances, the things that we don't like anymore, the staying silent, you know, so now we just don't have the bandwidth for it anymore, and we really need to feel something shift.

SPEAKER_02

So, what happens, you know, if you've if you've been married for 15, 20 years, you still love him, yeah, but you don't have that desire. Does that mean like all long-term relationships are doomed?

SPEAKER_00

Or like Yeah, absolutely not. It's just the way that we talk about things, and you guys know that you know, sex is so taboo and it has such a stigma on it that even in relationship, it is one thing that people don't talk about. Like we fight and we talk about our finances, we talk about the kids, we talk about the in-laws, we do this stuff. But when it comes to sex, we're afraid to say anything because if we say I'm not satisfied, we put at risk ourselves and our other person who we love very much. We don't want them to feel rejected, we don't want them to feel like they're not good enough either. So we don't have these conversations, especially women. We do not have these conversations with our partners. Women want sex, and it's not even that desire fades, it's that the desire for the sex we're having fades. It's the desire for the this the form of relationship we are in in that moment disappears because we're changing and we're moving through different stages of our lives. So the sex maybe that you wanted when you were 20, and maybe the you know safe, secure sex that you had every Tuesday and Thursday night for 10 years while you were raising the kids or whatever. Now maybe all of a sudden you want something completely different and you have no language to talk about what that is because nobody thinks, first of all, that women want sex. Like, how dare you want sex? Don't be such a little hoo-er, you know.

SPEAKER_03

That really resonates with me, Serena, because um, I think tonally and like the approach is such a minefield with uh long-standing couples. I can speak to my marriage personally. I was very nervous about talking to my husband, my then husband, about sex. And I said, I would really like us to be more sexually active, which was a generous framing because we were not sexually active at all at that point. We were parents and we were tired and we had lots of responsibilities.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And his response to that after a long pause where my heart dropped out of my body, is I guess we could have more sex, but then he followed that up with his primary relationship concern being full division of chores. So that made me really depressed.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Like when your partner comes to you and says, like, I wanna jump your bones, let's just keep it in there. Let's just keep it in the jumping of the bones, you know, and like have some fun with it. Yeah. So he had some other things going on inside of him, some little resentments and maybe little digs that he wanted to kind of pull out in that moment.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, absolutely. So, my question for you, given that, is what do you feel are some tools or some tips for folks to kick off that conversation? Uh, but in, you know, in a kind way, because you know, you don't want to start accusatory. It's like, oh, you know, why don't we have sex anymore? But what are ways that folks can, you know, try to get a little more comfortable with starting that conversation with a long-term partner?

SPEAKER_00

The words I miss you work really well.

SPEAKER_03

That's a good one.

SPEAKER_00

Right? Like instead of this is what we're not doing, this is what I want more of, I miss you. I miss touching you, I miss kissing you, and then follow that up with maybe a little you have to do this. You're right, you know, the tone is very important in the timing and the turf, and we'll talk about that in a second. But to say that and then lighten it a little bit. Do you remember when that time we were at such and such and we did it in the back of the car, or we did it, you know, such and such, and bring up a time that you guys can resonate, you know, about remember, I guess, that together and have a little moment and then say, you know, oh my god, I really miss when we used to be like that. Do you miss when we're like that? Is it weird that I miss doing that? Does it make me a little slutty slut? And then like laugh about it a little bit.

SPEAKER_03

I love that so much. Like, because you're you're not accusing, you're kind of pulling in a positive shared memory, right? It's like, remember this, remember how hot that was. Wouldn't you love to try that again?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, exactly. You know, the thing is, in anything that we do, and you know, you guys would know this even through business or just through any any kind of interactions, calling somebody out on something is going to raise their defenses. But when we call people in, we soften that just a little bit, right? So it's not like I'm not calling you out and saying, you are shit at this, you don't do this, we're broken, I don't like this. You're saying, oh my God, I really like your penis and I really want more of it. You know, like I really I remember when we were so hot and heavy, and oh my god, do you feel like um the responsibilities, you know, name off whatever, you know, fill in the blank here really gets in the way because I do, and like I feel like we need to tackle this together. It when you're in a partnership, it's really you and them against the world. But what ends up happening is it becomes you against them or them against you because you are their most familiar person. It's really easy to take that out on our familiar person. They say the same thing about even children, right? When they go to school, oh my god, your kid is the most well behaved in the class, and as soon as they come home, it's fucking utter meltdown. Yeah, because you're their safe person.

SPEAKER_02

Who the hell? What kid are you talking about? Right?

SPEAKER_00

Because you're their safe person and they feel the most loved and unconditionally loved in your presence. So when we have that partnership for such a long time, it could be five years, doesn't matter how long it is, it's the depth of the relationship. When you have that with somebody, you become so comfortable that sometimes we forget to soften the way we talk to our people a little bit.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I I love that so much because you're inviting connection and conversation instead of immediately making it adversarial. Yeah. And, you know, the other person getting their backup and and kind of meeting these accusations hurled at them from their partner, which, as you said, is their most trusted person.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And now, you know, with all of that said, the other thing that just hit me is, you know, I don't know what our audience is, but I'm assuming it's mostly females, mostly women in relationship. And the thing is, having that now on top of your other mental load and all the emotional things that you like you need to make hold the emotional tone of the relationship, it shouldn't be that way. So, you know, I have told you guys before, you know, like I really like to get in front of our partners, our male partners specifically, and have these conversations as well. So we don't have to be the one holding all of the like all of the emotional labor on this completely. Because if you're not feeling desire, yeah, you want somebody to come to you and make you feel that way. You know, sometimes we don't want to reach out and be like, oh, hey, I'm not feeling desired. Could you please make me feel desired? And then they make you feel desired, and you go, You only did that because I asked. You know?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and it comes back like something that stood out in my mind when we talked last time was that example that you gave when, you know, you're standing at the kitchen sink and you're doing dishes, you know, and your partner comes up, you know, grabs you from behind, and then, you know, tries to bounce their penis off your butt. And you're like, could you just get away? Like, get away. And then they feel rejected. Yes. And that happened so many times in my relationship, and it wasn't about rejection, like, but he took it that way, and it was just a bad time. I I want desire, I want to feel desired. I don't want to be poked at when I'm trying to do the fucking dishes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And and the other thing on top of all of this is that, you know, we do have, let's talk about the kinds of desire that we have. And this is gonna, this is a perfect leadway into that, is because we have spontaneous desire and we have responsive desire. And most of us think that sex only happens, the best sex happens spontaneously, right? That excitement, that whatever, but that's not the case. However, overall, male people with penis, or people with penises, I suppose, but like anybody with a penis is going to have an easier time um experiencing spontaneous desire. Their brain and their body, all that means is that their brain and their body work cohesively. They think I want to have sex and their dick gets hard, right? Uh sometimes. Sometimes it takes a little bit longer and that's okay too. Nobody's broken. Or the opposite happens. You know, the bam happens, and then they go, huh, I could, I could do the deed right now. Like this could be fun. Let me go poke her while she's doing the dishes. That'll turn her on. Right? I'm definitely in now.

SPEAKER_02

Can I just say men? That is not a turn on. Not hot listening. Not hot. Not hot.

SPEAKER_00

But women specifically, you know, we have a lot of us have what's called responsive desire. And all that means is that our brains and our bodies are not cohesive. So it could be either one. It could be you're thinking, oh my gosh, I really want to have sex. I really want to. But your body is not responding to your thoughts, and it stops you from taking initiative. It stops you from taking that first step. So if anybody can ever can relate to this, you're sitting on the sofa, you're thinking, oh my God, like, you know, I really do like him, like he's really cute, or like something kind of gets in your head and you're like, ooh, I could have my nipples played with today, like that would feel really good. But your body's not really doing it, and you just can't make that move to reach out physically or even verbally and say, Would you like to? Right? So now you wait. And as you wait, your brain says, Yeah, fuck him. He's not even trying. Yeah, I know. And then you've you've had a full-ass conversation in your head from I'm horny to oh my god, I can't believe he doesn't love me. All by yourself.

SPEAKER_02

I've done that so many times. Right? Yeah. We actually bought this couch, and it's like a big sectional, and there's like the cuddle corner. And you know, we made a joke when we bought the couch about the cuddle corner, and then so many nights I would I would be at one end of the couch, and he'd be at the other end of the couch, and I'd look at him like, oh god, he's so cute, and uh, and and feel that desire, feel horny. Yep, but then it's like, but if I go over, then I gotta follow through, and I gotta do the thing. And then there's so much to still so much to do. See and I do regret that. Like, I feel like I should have just tried to be spontaneous, but you know, my brain was like, Yeah, I want it, but my body's like, ah, but you're so comfortable right where you're at.

SPEAKER_00

But the thing is, what you just said, like, I should have tried to be more spontaneous. Give yourself some grace. You don't have to be spontaneous. But what we don't know is that you didn't know to recognize that you have responsive desire. So it's not changing it into spontaneous desire. It is responsive. So in those moments, if we know that now, like everybody listening now today knows that there's a difference. Now you get to either reach out to me or do some research, figure out what you need, and then you implement little things. Like you could look at your partner and without having to say all the words, you could just be like cuddle corner, and then they know that that's the thing. My husband and I used to do, did you brush your teeth?

SPEAKER_03

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And if we brushed our teeth at night, then it was like good to go.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, I love that-like a secret code.

SPEAKER_00

Just a little secret code, right? Or do you want to play tennis tonight? Like just something, and then it doesn't feel so jarring for you to ask. Right. The other part of responsive desires that your body wants, it is kind of what you were explaining, is that your body wanted it, your brain got in the way. Right? So there's there's your brain getting your brain wanting it, and your body just not being able to physically feel it, therefore it stops you from making the move, or your body is feeling it, but your brain goes, if I start this, I've got to finish it. If I you know do this, there's so much to do. It's gonna take an hour, then I'm gonna be tired, then I'm gonna be this, or whatever the excuses are in your head, and it stops you from doing that. That distance between then you and your partner, not that it's your responsibility, but that distance then that you've created in your body, they're like they're probably on the other side of the sofa just like watching TV, like off in their own little world. And all of a sudden you're just feeling resentful, and nothing has happened except you had a conversation in your own head about it, right? So having little um, you know, code words, little code movements, even, you know, even because we do have a hard time. This is why I say give yourself grace. Uh, it's not gonna be easy for everybody to just be like, hey, babe, I'd really like you to stick your thing in my thing tonight and I want to ride you here and let's get this toy out. It's not gonna be that easy all the time. Sometimes, if we know that we have this kind of desire discrepancy, is what it's called, we just have to give our partners a clue, have the conversation, say, listen, if I rub my feet together on the sofa, it kind of means I'm feeling something, but I'm a little nervous to say it. I'm not really comfortable saying it. But if you could pick up on that cue or try, then maybe we can move forward together. And then for the partners listening, you know, the the idea that you just said, like everything is in my head, all the chores, all the things. If I start it, I have to follow through. That's the one I want to talk about for a second. Because we've been told that if we um initiate contact, right? If we initiate erotic contact at all, it means somebody has to come and it's usually them in order for it to be over. That narrative is killing desire, especially in longer-term relationships or people with desire discrepancy. Okay. The thing is, a really great makeout session can create such safety in a responsive desired body that it will warm you up and it'll get you there, and you release oxytocin and you really kind of like your person again, and then you stop, and nothing has to happen. And you don't feel like a hole, you don't feel like a masturbation tool, you don't feel like you have to do something because you got them started. I was taught as a very young girl that if you start something and you give them blue balls, it's your responsibility to take care of it because how dare you leave them in such pain. Oh, for shame. Wow. Have you ever had a swollen pussy just throbbing? Like that hurts too, you guys. None of us died.

SPEAKER_03

I I love that. And and kind of along the lines of a great makeout sesh, which honestly that would be medicine for me. I would love that. Just a good make out or cuddle sesh. Boys' foreplay is such a good thing. Like Serena, you were saying about a lot of women having responsive desire, like warm us up a little bit first. Yeah. You know, maybe don't go directly to the act when we're doing dishes, but maybe like rub the shoulders, say something nice, a kiss, something to kind of indicate that you might be in the mood. Yeah. But don't go from like zero to a hundred because I notice sometimes I do have that kind of ticker tape to-do list running through my head. And it takes a little bit more to override that system and to get me in the moment. Yeah. And I feel like some really good foreplay helps. And if I don't feel like I'm gonna get that, I'll be honest, I will have an edible or something, right?

SPEAKER_00

Like a little gummy or something to shut your brain up.

SPEAKER_03

Just to get that anxious overthinking um downgeared so that I can actually be in the moment. But I mean, foreplay is it'll it'll get us there. It's just like patience is a virtue.

SPEAKER_00

So here's here's the other thing that let's talk about foreplay for a second, and then I want to talk about my little five-minute method. So don't let me forget because I will go off on a tangent. Um, foreplay, you know, we've always talked about is defined as you start touching, and that is the indicator to wanting to go and have, quote, intercourse, right? And that's what we call sex, insertion. But we all know that there is a huge population of people that have no insertion in their lives, that are clit to clit, and they're having more orgasms than us heterosexual gals. Let me just tell you, okay? Because it's not penis-focused, it's not insertion focused at all. It's something completely different. So, foreplay in my world, and not just my world personally, but in the world of sex education now, we want to change the language around that, where foreplay is everything that happens from the moment your erotic encounter ends, okay? So what we originally would have called sex ends to the moment it starts again. So the moment that sex ends, that erotic encounter ends, the way we talk to one another, the way that we help each other, the way that we are grateful for one another, the way that we rub the shoulders, rub the feet, maybe, you know, clean up the whatever we always you know, as women, we always talk about what we want, but you've got to know what your partner wants as well. Maybe there's something they want, and you're gonna show them gratitude and do that as well. Throughout the course of the next couple of days or weeks or however long it is, until you're going to be erotically connected again. And then once you become erotically connected, we call that sex. So if you had a make out session, you had sex this week. If you did some oral when nobody came, but you just enjoyed some oral shocker, right? You can do these things without anybody orgasmine and still have a really, really good time. Okay. A lot of the people out there now. You know, some people are gonna be like, Whatever, Serena, I wanna come. And I'm like, I get it. And you totally can. I'm not telling you not to. I'm just saying, if you don't, we've been told that that's a failure on somebody's part, right? Either I didn't come and he didn't make me come, or he didn't come, and now he's mad, and he wants like whatever, man. Like, you don't have to do that. If you've had a really beautiful experience together, so now all of that is sex. And then how many in midlife and beyond, I talk to people who maybe have physical challenges that are happening in their bodies as they age, all of our bodies are going to be different. And I say to them, how many more times a week or a month, whatever it is for you, can you say that you, quote, had sex if we redefine what sex looks like in midlife, if we redefine what it looks like going through our lives, even in earlier stages, right? But the the demo that I'm talking about right now is usually the midlife people. If you had a makeout session, you had sex this week. If you, you know, like I said, oral or even a handy, the little fingers doing a little thing down the pan, whatever it is, now you've had sex. Now you can, now you feel like, oh my God, we're so horny, we're so sexy all the time. Look at us doing all the things like every other day, look at us, goddamn, right? And then you feel sexier so that then if you are moving toward intercourse or whatever that you know culmination looks like for you, it doesn't feel as daunting all the time. Right.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I see how that can be like foreplay during the week. Um, but when you have a partner whose ultimate goal is always to come, it's really difficult. Like, you know, my my ex-partner was like, I can't sleep unless I come. I can't sleep unless I come. Well, you got a fucking hand, man. And it's like, so I'm just a like, so when you're just thinking that you're a vessel, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

And that is like, so it's hard to like want to have sex if you're just a means to their end. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

And and this is the conversations that this is why I want to get in front of men to have these conversations as well. If you're listening, send this to your partner. Send this conversation to your partner because you don't need to hold the mental load and the emotional labor for this. But we need to redefine what successful sex looks and feels like. Right. And I have a really soft spot for men. Most of my clients are men. I've told you that before, off air. Like most of my clients that come in for one-on-one counseling are men, and they're saying, I don't know what I'm doing wrong. A for myself, for my body, for my partner. Nobody talks to them. We women, we have community. We have circles. Now, are they as loud? Were they always as loud as maybe we're trying to be now? No. They were centuries ago, right? And then we got we got muted a little bit, and now we're coming back, and that's fine. But the men in our lives have no like circles where they can be vulnerable about their sexuality. If they went to their partners, they went to their buddies and were like, oh my God, you know, like I really just want, um, you know, I really just wanted to to rub my soft penis and I just want to like feel connected and intimate. What? Are you joking? Right? But they should be able to. Yes. But they don't because society and the narratives that we have been fed, all of us, state that masculinity is rooted in a rock, hard, long, thick dick that can go for hours. Okay. That is the epitome. Porn doesn't help. I'm not anti-porn, but porn doesn't help because it does give us that visual and that idea of what perfection looks like. And it gives us the visual of what that perfect culmination looks like. It's that money shot, it's that go, go, go. Now, let's be real. The coming feels great. Okay. It is a release. It's a buildup in our bodies and it's a release. I understand that. We're not denying the physiology, we're not denying that it can feel frustrating. Okay, but what we're saying is you're not gonna die from it. And if you had a makeout session where you didn't come for a minute, your partner, just so you know, is gonna wanna do it again because the safer you make her feel, the more she's going to want to come to you. But the more she feels, like you said, like a vessel, like a masturbation tool, the more she's gonna push you away. So we get to play this game. You can either sit back and ignore that fact and just keep going on and bitching and complaining that this is not the way it's happening, or we can have a really open conversation between these sexes, between these two different people, and say, you know what, this is how I feel. I need to feel safer. You want to have this culmination. I totally get it. I want that too. I mean, let's be honest, but I need a minute. I need a minute to feel like you just want me as a person. Back in the day when you were courting me, you certainly didn't say to me on like date one or two, oh my god, I gotta do the thing, or I'm not gonna like you anymore. I'm gonna be mad. No, you had patience, man.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

We want to continue to be wooed pretty much consistently through our lives. Yes. And it's really hard for the men in our lives to feel that because they just want stability and steadiness. Once they have it, they feel like this is good to go. Now I get to have it for the rest of my life. But women were a little more chaotic in a really beautiful way, up and down.

SPEAKER_01

We're evolving.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Riding the waves. Right, riding the waves of that evolution in our femininity, right? And that is what we are. The men are the steady rocks in our lives. That is what masculine energy is or structure energy, depending on how you want to call it. And the feminine or the flow energy really does move and shake quite a bit. So we need to have something to kind of um the the way that we like to talk about it is like we need really tall, strong riverbeds, which are our partners, in order for us to flow in the middle, like that river.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_00

Right? So that container is really, really cool. So having that strong container, and when you have a man that comes to you and says, you know what, I just want to, I just need to like get off inside of you, you're like, no way.

SPEAKER_02

Let me just come on, please.

SPEAKER_00

Right? That makes it worse. That makes it worse. Please don't beg.

SPEAKER_03

But Serene, I love what you said about how, you know, intimacy in a relationship should not be considered a failure if you're not having intercourse all the time, because closeness and desire to your partner can manifest in so many different ways. And it doesn't have to be like all the bells and whistles every single time to build that connection over the years. So I'd love to know what your take is when you're when you're counseling folks on what healthy day-to-day intimacy looks like. Not necessarily like the sex act, whatever people define that as, but just healthy intimacy.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so healthy and required. So let's talk about some required intimacy. Well, healthy intimacy really is um, it's it's it revolves around safety for us, right? So if we're talking about women specifically, it revolves around safety. Can I come to you with my emotions? Can I come to you? Can I express myself without feeling like uh you're gonna be defensive? Can I, you know, tell you my dreams and my goals? Can I be a girl around you? Okay, so sometimes when I say that, people get a little like hot in their seat. But you know, the essence of woman is is really playful, right? We are really playful at our at our core essence, and we want to we want to find joy in things. But we are in a world where we're not allowed to find all that joy all the time. So we want our partners to be able to hold that joy for us sometimes. So that intimacy looks really nice. On the other side, for our for our you know, our partners, if we're in heterosexual relationships, you know, they really do want physical contact. So holding hands, hugging, right? Now, the two really important points that I want to make are um research-backed, evidence-backed ways to create and increase intimacy and and desire in our relationships and closeness. One is a six-second kiss. Okay, so the Gottmans, I've studied with the Gottman Institute. The Gottmans did a years-long study with thousands and thousands of couples. And there's a couple, there's three things that actually that I want to talk about. One of them was a six-second kiss. In six seconds, your body is capable of releasing enough oxytocin for you to feel bonded to your person. Okay.

SPEAKER_03

Wow, that's a short period of time.

SPEAKER_00

It is a very short period of time. And not just like a six-second peck, but like a little open mouth kiss. Do you have to go all tongue? No, I mean maybe not. But like a little soft open mouth kiss. Now, you say six seconds is not a long time, but when you're kissing your partner and you're counting one Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi, I promise you that a lot of you out there listening have not kissed your partner for six seconds for no other reason in a really long time, right? We kissed for six seconds in order to get somewhere, but not for no reason. So the idea is before you leave each other in the day, if it's possible, and when you reconnect in the evenings or night or day, whenever you reconnect from your day, a six-second kiss to say hello. Everything else gets dropped, okay? The other thing is a 30-second hug. Sounds easy, but again, when you're hugging your partner for 30 seconds and you're not checking your phone or waiting or looking at the clock, we don't do that a whole lot. Now imagine if you combine that. So 36 seconds in the morning and 36 seconds in the evening. Honestly, this is what I'm saying because it will, for us, for us women in our biology, it will help us feel safe. It will help us recognize he, I'm saying he because I'm, you know, in our heterosexual relationships, but this happens in all relationships. But they want us, they love us, they care for us. I feel safe with you, therefore, I want to do more with you, right? But if we're completely neglected that way, for not in a nasty way, just because nobody knows, right? But it does feel like neglect, it lands like neglect in our bodies, and then we get groped at, right? Then we feel used. So those are really, really important. Um, the third thing for intimacy are bids for connection. This was a massive study done by the Gottmans with thousands of couples, and it was the biggest indicator of success or demise in a relationship, is that if your partner comes to you, and I'll tell you what a bid is in a minute, but if your partner comes to you with a bid for connection and you ignore it, that is a huge indicator that your relationship is not going to have longevity. Okay. So a bid for connection is anything. It could be me sitting here going, oh my God, look at that fire. And you guys say, Oh yeah, we turned that on, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if I said, Oh my god, look at that fire, and you guys just like looked at me or then looked down and like continued on your phone, you would have completely ignored my bid for connection in that moment. So now talk about that with your partner. You're driving down the road, right? The the big it's all over TikTok now. All the young girls will know what I'm talking about, but it's the bird experiment. It's like, oh my god, look, there's a bird outside, and your partner just ignores completely. Or, oh yeah, what kind of bird? Where is it? How did you see that? Or like what kind of tree? Or anything, anything at all. Like, how many times can you remember coming home, saying something, and your partner completely ignoring you? I'm guilty of this. Okay, so like this is not a man-bashing session. This goes both ways. I am terrible. My husband is amazing at Bids for Connection. He will reach out, he pebbles me a little bit. Like he'll send me, you know, how penguins give each other pebbles when they love each other. He will pebble me with like memes and things on Instagram and he'll send me reels. I ignore all of them. Now, we've had a conversation that I just get overstimulated and he knows that. So, like it's kind of a joke in our family right now. But he's really good at doing that, and I have to really recognize that he is reaching out for connection in those moments, and I have to reciprocate that connection for him.

SPEAKER_02

Right. And I think that's so important. Like, I I again just talking about like the what I've experienced when you're start like you start a conversation with your partner and they don't respond, they're on their phone or they have their AirPod in or something. And I will always call it out. I'm like, Did you hear what like I asked you a question or I made a comment and they're like, Yeah, no, I heard you. And it's like, well, why did you care? Why the hell am I talking?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You don't even hear me. I'm invisible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Right? And in the world that we live in, we have so many easy ways to be disconnected, like you just said, AirPods in, phone is in your hand. You know, years and years and years ago, they say that we were more connected. We weren't. There were papers, there were newspapers, there were cigars, there, you know, there were ways that other that you were disconnected in other ways as well. But we really are inundated with technology now that is taking up all of our focus. We are all pretty much dopamine addicted, right? And like that's a completely different conversation, a little bit out of my wheelhouse, but a little bit in. But we really are addicted to that. So that the the dopamine that we get and the connectiveness that we get person to person is not is not adding up to the connection that we get when we get a like on Instagram or we get a message come through or we hear that and we know we've got a text, right? It's just it we can't we can't um compete with it one-on-one. So you have to make some time and that connection. So, you know, and a couple of other ways is you know, when you come home in the evening, whatever you need to do to deflate, if and most women will know this, sit in the car for 10 minutes before you walk in that house or park down the street if you think somebody's gonna come out and deflate in the car. Integrate your day in there, recognize the transition that's about to happen. Now I'm gonna go into my home, and my home is where my partner, my kids, my dog, my whatever kind of life that is for you there, and that's what you're gonna walk into. Now, does it have to, do you have to leave everything outside of home? No. But in the first half an hour, put your phone on silent, put it in your pocket, walk in the house, deal with the chaos that's going on because there's gonna be chaos, and that's okay, but deal with it instead of dissociating into your phone. Oh, I can't do that right now, I got a text, I can't do that right now, I've got an email. Put your phone down and just let yourself be in that and reintegrate into what it's like to have one-on-one experiences with somebody.

SPEAKER_03

I just want to go back, Serena, to when you were talking about bids for connection.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Find it really interesting because you were talking about it a little bit in the context of a relationship. And I discovered recently that that is really important in those crucial early days as well. My last experience dating was only for six weeks with someone. And now that I think about it and reframe, I was constantly putting out bids for connection that weren't being met. And it's almost like an emotional record scratch where it makes you stop and take stock and think, does this person really care about me? Do they, are they actually interested? Are they actually engaged? You know, I invited him over for dinner. He would text and say, babe, I'm gonna be an hour to 90 minutes late, just eat without me. Or I would ask him a question about his previous sex life, what he really enjoyed, what turned him on. And then he would say, Oh, I don't know, and then change the subject. So it was a lot of kind of shifting, changing plans, deflecting questions where I was trying to carve out this deeper connection with this person. And I think that happened enough times where I realized, oh, I really don't think that we're on the same page or even want the same things.

SPEAKER_00

I think six weeks, I think you gave that way too much time.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, I didn't. I didn't honestly, it should have been three or four weeks, uh, but I'm still proud of myself that I disconnected at six.

SPEAKER_00

Good, good. I'm glad. Good for you. But yeah, no, you're right. And this is what we do, right? This is this is what we consider the normal way of wooing and getting to know someone. It's a back and forth of emotional labor. I give a little, you give a little, then you give a little, and I come back with something. And this is how we know what kind what kind of expectations this person is gonna have or I I have on this person, and you know, how am I gonna feel seen? Do they listen? Um, when we go into dating, for so I mean, we're all kind of in the same age bracket. So we I was always taught, you know, like you gotta make them like you. I hope they like you. I hope the men like you. But you know what, ladies, like, do you like them? Yeah, I think that's the bigger question. And do, and a bigger, bigger question is do you like the version of yourself you become when you're with them? That's a big conversation. So that's what you know, you had the young girl, you had the the young girls, I said, like an old, like an old lady here. You had the young ones on. I'm saying, but you had some young women on a little while ago, you know, and this is the conversation that I like to have with the younger people is, you know, how do you feel about yourself when you're doing it? Are you going home thinking to yourself, oh my God, I'm so embarrassed. I can't believe that I was that anxious or I did that, or I, you know what? Maybe that's your your only indication that you really need, that your intuition is talking to you and telling you that this is not the person who's gonna bring out the best avatar in me right now. And maybe it's time to mosey on, right? Or put not as much effort in. Because again, women, the narrative that we have is that if we don't put the effort in, nobody will. So we have to show up first and they will reciprocate. And that is false.

SPEAKER_03

That is not true.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that is false.

SPEAKER_02

Even the the girls that we had on, the young ladies, you know, they talked about that, like the texting first, who texts first, and like the guy, like the guys aren't texting. It's like men, text your women first.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, right. They're little, and this is it like in our day and age, that's the bid for connection. That's the showing up, that's the equivalent of the showing up at your work, not in a creepy way, but like in a nice way, like when you're getting to know someone and being like, oh hey, I just thought I'd pop by and say hello, or you know, showing up with flowers or coming to your door. It's the equivalent of, you know, every generation had their own bid and their own way of wooing. And so, you know, the young men need to understand that there is, you still need to woo your person. If you want to have a beautiful, um, healthy polarity in your relationship. If you want to have a woman who is very structured, who takes care of everything and who's in control and great, but don't expect her to be soft with you. Don't expect her to just listen. Don't, and and I don't mean just listen, like do as I say, but you know, don't expect her to just be. You create that, you know, like that back and forth creates. And it's the same with us. If we're gonna show up as women and we're gonna show up very in control, not not like, of course, we're in control of our lives, but like controlling and very, you know, structured and very um quote masculine, then we can't expect our partners, if they're men, to show up in the same way. They're going to energetically fall into the energy that is open for them. So they're gonna fall into following rather than leading.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so this is and it's so it's not it that's a bigger conversation, but I mean it really is just an energetic flow. Right.

SPEAKER_02

And I I mean I feel that just the type of person I am. Like I'm a type A personality, I'm used to being in in charge, you know, making decisions. And I know sometimes I can be a little overpowering, but it would be so nice for a man to say what we're doing rather than ask me what I want to do because I make decisions all day long. And I have to be that, you know, strong alpha kind of person. So when I come home, I just want to be taken care of. Yes. Right? Like, I don't want to have to make a decision. If we want to go to dinner, just tell me where we're gonna go. Yeah. Tell me what I should like. Do you want me to wear a dress or should I wear jeans? Right, right.

SPEAKER_00

And that conversation can be had with your partner too, because you can say, you know what, babe, like, even when you're dating somebody, just for the record, the energy that I need in a relationship is, you know, I take care of all of these things in the day, and I might come home and I might look like I'm still trying to take control because I'm just in that mindset all day long. There's nothing that I want more than for you to say, sit your ass down. We're gonna have a conversation, right? Or you look at your partner and you say, I'd really like to go out this weekend. And when your partner hears that, if you're, you know, if this was you and you say, I really want to go out this weekend, so now you're able to take control in a feminine way, right? I really, you know, I always hesitate when I use masculine and feminine feminine to describe these because it isn't gender specific. I need everybody to know that it really is just like a flow and a structure. But when you're in that flow, you can meet your partner in that and say, I'd like to go out this weekend. And then you're kind of handing the torch to them. And then they go, Okay, she wants to go out. Then he can ask questions, right? Would you like to go out Friday or Saturday? Pick one. Actually, pick one, right? So this is the part that we get really caught up on. Okay, you want to go out, your partner says to you, okay, I'm gonna take control. When would you like to go out? Friday or Saturday? And then you go, well, I don't care. And then he's thinking, Well, now if I pick the wrong day, you know, so if they're gonna ask a question, just answer it. Like that's okay. That's fair. Right? And it just kind of and it just softens it a little bit, right? Would you like to go out for you know, Thai food or would you like to go out for Chinese? See how they're still making a choice, right? And g they're they're making the decision and then giving you a choice. Right. So that's different than well, where do you want to eat?

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Right? That is annoying.

SPEAKER_01

That's so annoying.

SPEAKER_00

When do you want to go out? That's annoying. I want to take you out Friday night or Saturday night, pick one.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you. That's pretty hot. Yeah. I want to go for Chinese food or Thai. Pick one. Okay, sir. Yeah. I want you to wear a dress, but I know that you like those jeans. Pick one. And like just the fact that they look at you and say, pick one.

SPEAKER_03

Gives me chills. That's amazing. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00

So you're still getting, like, you're still actually making the choices. That's okay. If they don't want to, or if they're nervous, because sometimes we don't know, and that's okay. But they're they're framing it so much different than I don't care what you wear, wear whatever you want. We can go wherever you want. What day do you want to go out? Then you are in control, but they're giving you two, three, whatever, how many choices, and you get and then they look at you. This is the key. Any guys listening say, pick one.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Right? This is that's the moment. That's the moment that gave you the goosebumps. Is when I look at you and I say, Chinese or Thai, pick one. I don't want to hear, I don't care. Right. I'm telling you, pick one.

SPEAKER_02

And that's so much easier. Like I'd be like, Thai, let's do it. Right. Let's go to Thai. Saturday night. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Because me saying pick one puts me in my masculine. Right. Now, we like we would have that in any kind of dynamic. Like sometimes I'm with my friends and I do the same thing. And as soon as I get into that structured energy, fucking decisions are made. You know? And it's not just I don't care where you want to go. Not everybody can be in their flow. Somebody needs to choose. Right. Right?

SPEAKER_03

Speaking of decision making, and yeah, I love that framing. That would make me hot as well.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, me too. I'm like, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Donna, some of the things that you were saying triggered a memory for me. Have either of you ladies seen the movie Baby Girl with Nicole Kidman? Yes. Oh, so Donna, you talking about you're a CEO, you make decisions all day. I mean, I'm sure you probably get decision fatigue because you have to be like in this high-powered position all the time. And when you come home, it would be nice to relax and maybe even hand off that role of decision making to someone else. And I feel like that's exactly what Nicole Kidman's character was in Baby Girl. And if you haven't seen it, I recommend it.

SPEAKER_02

I'll I will watch that tonight.

SPEAKER_03

Oh my god, it's so hot. So, like, and it's interesting too because you know, her husband is played by Antonio Banderas, and you know, who of us would not want to be married to Antonio Banderas?

SPEAKER_02

Tell the old Banderas.

SPEAKER_03

She is aging like fine wine, but she's not brave enough to say overtly what her needs and desires are in the bedroom. So when they have sex, she has to go and finish alone because she's not, she doesn't feel like she can be the agency of her own desire in the moment with him. So she has this affair with someone who literally is in this sub-dom power dynamic and power struggle that tells her what to do and it wildly turns her on. And then she has to go back and figure out can I recreate this dynamic with my primary partner, with my husband? So I just find that really interesting. But like, you know, and it's an interesting study in contrast too, right? Because yeah, if if you're in that high-pressure position all day at work, you don't want to be in a different version of that once you get home. Like, no, that's such a turnoff. It's exhausting, it's a turnoff, you don't want it, nobody wants it, even if you look like Antonio Banders.

SPEAKER_00

And like, even when it comes to, you know, some people who maybe are not like CEOs, but even like a stay-at-home mom. I was a stay-at-home mom forever. I'm exhausted. Talk about decision fatigue. I'm taking care of three children, three people needing me all day long. And then somebody looks at me and says, Well, where do you want to go for dinner? I'm like, God damn it. If somebody asks me one more question, I am touched out. If anybody touches me without me asking for it, I'm gonna lose my mind. And I'm decisioned out right now, right? Yeah. And back to you talking about Baby Girl. Such a mind fuck of a movie. Oh my god. I'm not gonna lie.

SPEAKER_03

It was so compelling though.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I watched it and I was like, so you know, I this is kind of my world, and I was watching it and I was excited. And I have my own reservations because Fifty Shades was hot too, but I also have reservations about that. And so I was watching it and I was I had way too many judgments on it, but it was very compelling. Like you just wanted to be like, what are you doing? Like, how what do you all I kept going was, what do you mean? And then asking myself, why? I'm not gonna give too much away, but why when you drank a whole glass of milk, did I feel like I was going into subspace? Like just watching you do that. Like it was it's this weird little moment where you're like, shit, that is hitting me in a really weird way. Now, there were some things in there that I feel like they should have had an intimacy coordinator talk to them about.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, agreed.

SPEAKER_00

But at the same time, the concept was fascinating. And in the well, we can't really tell her what happens in the end, can we? No spoilers. I know. We can't even say what happens in the end. But when you said, you know, she couldn't do those things with her husband, it just brings us back to what we talked about before is that we you do need to be able to have those conversations. Yes. You could be shocked to find out what your partner is actually into in these waves and stages of life that change over time. But we're so quiet and we think everything is supposed to go, you know, as per, but things change for both parties. So imagine what would happen if you got curious.

SPEAKER_03

And I think without spoilers, one of the pain points and one of the dangerous spaces that Nicole Kidman's character exists in is that I'm sure you notice this, Serena. She tightly compartmentalizes her life. So I feel like there are parts of her life that should be coexisting in harmony, but she boxes things off.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And I feel like that is at the peril of the relationships that are closest to her. So I feel like that in some ways it was a bit of a cautionary tale where you can be too closed off and subjugating your own needs. And, you know, if you ignore them for long enough, they're going to come out in twisted and unexpected ways, right? You have to address it in the moment. It's good to be open and to communicate. If not, weird shit is gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00

Weird shit's gonna happen. And I mean, maybe not, maybe not like in Baby Girl.

SPEAKER_03

Maybe not. Maybe no milk is involved.

SPEAKER_00

But like if you do, please reach out to Shee Sha.

SPEAKER_03

Well, actually speaking of, we are coming to a close. But Serena, I feel like I would not be a good co-host unless I let you end on what you mentioned in the beginning, but I don't believe we circled back on, which was you mentioned a five-minute rule or five-minute process. So let's close out on that.

SPEAKER_00

So we're talking about desire today, right? And yeah, we have our desire discrepancies. So we talked about that a little bit. Midlife changes that as well. Estrogen, we've got all lots and lots of factors that were gonna kind of play into that. So this, you know, uh visual that we were talking about about, you know, you doing the dishes, your partner comes up and grabs your body and everything, and now you have responsive desire and they're expressing their spontaneous desire. I I have yet to come up with a better better name this method any better, but it's my five-minute method, okay? And all it is, you've had this conversation already with your partner. This is not unexpected. So now you're gonna learn what it is and go have this conversation with your partner. And we talked about little um code words and little things that you use. So your partner will come to you and say, just give me five minutes. So they come up to you behind you, they grab a little bit, you feel the uh, right? Your body's gonna flinch. Somebody, the spontaneous partner says, just give me five minutes, and then you just do a little makeout right there, right where you are for five minutes. A little touching, a little massage, a little eye contact, how is your day? What's going on? Play with your hair. It doesn't have to be anything crazy. This could be your kids could be in the room, you know, like you could be anywhere. It doesn't have to, you can use this in whatever way that you want. A little hand rub, whatever it is. If after those five minutes, you as the responsive partner have not become cohesive with your body and your brain, then you get to look at your partner and say, Do you know what? Thank you. I really enjoyed that, but I really do have things to do. I tried, right? And then your partner knows it's not rejection. We're actually doing an exercise right now, so they don't take it as rejection, but both of you have now had some oxytocin, you've had a little dopamine, your adrenaline's going, you're feeling a little close to one another, and that is going to build it compounds in your body. Okay, so the more we do it, the better. So now you would go to your partner tonight, for example. Anybody listening and say, okay, Serena has this five-minute method, this is what it is. If you want sex or if I want sex, or just to connect, we go to each other. If the other person's not feeling it, depend depending now. I mean, like if you're on the way out the door, let's just not do it that way. But you know, your partner's not really feeling it. You look at them, the code word is code sentence, just give me five minutes. It's your job as the responsive partner. This is the hard part, to override everything in your brain that's telling you no. And this is dicey. I know somebody's gonna come and say I shouldn't be feel forced. You're with a partner you love. This is your partner. This is not painful, this is not coercion. It's you recognizing I have responsive desire. Let me give myself three, five minutes to see if I can override it, see if I can become cohesive in my body. So now you have that little moment with your partner, and after after five minutes, you're like, oh, I am really hot. Okay, like meet me upstairs in a minute. Cool. If you're not, it gives you a quote, out. Your partner has gotten connection because that's what a spontaneous desire partner really wants, is that connection. And now everybody kind of feels a little more connected just going forward in your day. Okay, it's not supposed to be pressure. If you know, as the spontaneous partner or the partner who, let's say, quote, is being turned down, you don't get to be a baby about it. You don't get to come back and hold that against somebody. The whole point of this exercise is connection, and it takes a lot of you know, willpower, it takes a lot of maturity to be able to then absorb what used to feel like rejection as just feedback and sit back and say, okay, thank you for having that little makeout session with me. And now we're expressing gratitude for one another, and now we go on with our lives. So there's a whole lot of like psychological things happening in the background, but what it looks like in on the front is you know what, we've connected, we've made out, I've given you a chance, I've given my body a chance. Can we try again another time?

SPEAKER_03

I love that. Kind of stoking that fire five minutes a day, and uh so that you build desire over time and don't expect it kind of a la carte in the moment, right now, let's go. That makes so much sense.

SPEAKER_00

And like our bodies in midlife, it's not gonna be like that anymore. Yes, right? We need to recognize 30 anymore. We need to recognize it. So your desire's not dead, it just like you said, it just isn't stoked. You can find ways.

SPEAKER_02

You know, when you're dating, you have that, right? Whether it's on the phone or whatever. But once you get into this long-term relationship, those little sexy, like five-minute turn-ons, yeah, they disappear.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, because we take for granted your partner's gonna be there all the time.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. And I think like I love that because I think we just need to transition. It's like sitting in the car, right? Yep. We just need a minute, five minutes. Five minutes, right? Ten minutes in the car, five minutes at the kitchen sink.

SPEAKER_00

Six second kiss.

SPEAKER_02

Six second kick.

SPEAKER_00

These are tiny little increments in your day, but imagine if you added them all up over time. And like I said, they compound. So remember that. It's not that, you know, you just do it once and it's supposed to work. This is gonna compound over time. You're gonna remember why you like them again. And you're gonna remember why you like sex. Right. We didn't even talk about like, you know, the kind of sex you like, so maybe that'll be the next time. I think you have to come back. I think we're gonna have to talk about uh we're gonna have to come back and talk about sex.

SPEAKER_03

Oh my gosh, yeah. Serena, thank you so much for joining us in the shed. We could really talk to you all day. I feel like this is this is part one in a series with Serena Haynes. This has been She Shed Unfiltered, where midlife isn't polished, it's real. From divorce and career pivots to perimenopause and everything no one warned us about. These are the honest conversations we've lived, survived, and shared with you today. Until next time, stay brave, be curious, and keep it unfiltered.