Episode 8: She’s the Boss — Reflections on Female Leadership

In this episode of She Shed Unfiltered, Donna and Meg shift the conversation from relationships to leadership — and what it really means to be “the boss.”

Donna shares her perspective as a CEO and longtime nonprofit leader, while Meg reflects on leadership in the worlds of communications and creative industries. Their roles may look very different, but the lessons they’ve learned about leading people, navigating difficult moments, and finding their own voice are surprisingly similar.

Together they talk about:

• The female leaders who shaped and inspired them
• The leadership qualities they value most — empathy, clarity, collaboration, and accountability
• Moments in their careers that pushed them outside their comfort zone and forced them to grow as leaders
• What they’ve observed about the different ways men and women often approach leadership

It’s an honest conversation about confidence, growth, and the reality of stepping into authority — even when you’re still figuring it out as you go.

Because sometimes becoming “the boss” is less about having all the answers… and more about having the courage to lead anyway.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to Sheep Shed Unfiltered. This is not a podcast for perfect women or polite conversation. This is for the women who've been divorced, dismissed, burnt out, betrayed, and still somehow managed to show up, get shit done, and keep everyone else still alive. There'll be laughter, there may be tears, and you might even say, did they really say that shit? Just real women, real stories, and the kind of honesty that usually happens after the second glass of wine. The first season of She Shed Unfiltered is about the things we learned the hard way. The lessons no one warned us about. The moments that changed us. Whether we were ready or not. I'm Donna. And I'm Meg. Welcome back to She Shed Unfiltered. Today we're talking about something that both of us live every day. Leadership. But not just leadership in theory, leadership as women. Because the truth is, being a woman in leadership comes with a unique set of expectations, pressures, and sometimes double standards.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

And the funny thing is, leadership can look really different depending on the role you're in. Donna runs a large organization, manages staff, deals with boards, strategy, budgets.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

And Meg leads in a completely different way through creativity, communication, storytelling, and building communities. So today we thought it would be interesting to talk about how we see each other lead and what we've learned along the way. I've spent most of my career in leadership roles, and if I'm being honest, my leadership style has evolved a lot. When I first became a leader, you think the job is about having all the answers. But the longer you do it, the more you realize the real job is creating an environment where people can succeed. You're responsible for making hard decisions, you're responsible for the culture of the organization, and sometimes you're responsible for carrying the weight of things that nobody else even sees. For me, leadership is about clarity, accountability, and trust. People need to know where they're going, why they're going there, and that you're willing to make the tough calls when necessary. But at the same time, empathy matters because people don't leave jobs, they leave environments that they don't feel respected or valued.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

And in my case, leadership looks really different. I don't actually manage a large team, or rather a a staff like Donna does, but I lead through ideas, collaboration, and creative direction. I think leadership in creative spaces is often about influence rather than authority. You're bringing people together, encouraging ideas, and helping shape something into its best version. And one thing I've learned is that good leaders don't need to dominate the room or be the loudest necessarily. Sometimes leadership is actually about listening more than talking.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

I think we always think too, like who were our mentors and and um who did we look up to as we're getting through or or coming into a leadership role. Yes. Right. And um it's interesting, I was thinking back of who the women were in my career who influenced me the the most. And uh one of them was a uh a boss that I had when I was pregnant with my daughter, and um I was really, really sick, and I had to go to the hospital and lost 17 pounds and I was gone for a week. And I went back to work, popped my head in her office, and said, Hey, I'm back. And she looked at me and she's like, I don't even know what to say to you right now. When I'm ready to talk to you, I'll come find you. And I was like, What the fuck? Wow, yeah, and so she we would pass each other in the hallway and she wouldn't speak to me. I'd see her in the kitchen, she wouldn't speak to me. And like I would go home crying to my husband, like she's not speaking to me, like I don't know what to do. And he's like, You're not staying there, like you just like you need the b you and the baby are the most important. Yeah. So I went and uh I went on stress leave and then ended up not going back there because of that leader. But I'll never forget her because she taught me the kind of leader I don't want to be. So we often look at like uh our mentors or somebody that you know shaped our leadership as like positive influences, but she she taught me like I go back to her all the time in my head, like throughout the years in my in my different roles, and I always go back to that scenario because I never want anyone to feel on my team that you know they're not valued, and just because you're sick or having a baby, like but she was, you know, probably at the time in her mid-40s, never married, didn't have children, so like work was her life, right? Number one priority. Yeah, yeah, but that will never like it's always something I remember.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

That's crazy. You just actually triggered a memory for me telling telling me about that situation, and triggered is honestly the right word because I also had a boss, a female boss, unfortunately, um, in and around my having my child, um, who left a lasting mark for a similar reason and really taught me how not to lead. And uh this is someone who um was very good at project management, but I think was perhaps pushed into a role of people management. And honestly, a lot of people can manage projects, but it I feel like it is this very special skill set, as you know, because you manage a team, uh, to actually manage people and those personalities and to bring empathy, which she did not possess, at least in a professional context. So I noticed I came back from Matt Leave and was pushed into a position that I didn't want. And the woman who was to be my boss had a bit of a reputation for being a tough nut to crack and sometimes challenging to work with. I'm choosing my words carefully here. Um and so I was really nervous. I did not know what to expect. Obviously, as you know, Donna, like coming back from MATLEAVE is just not easy anyway, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Not at all.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

But my team had shifted uh twice. So everyone seemed to have a different job title. So it was quite disorienting coming back into the world of corporate social responsibility when that's not a field I ever had any interest in or worked in previously. And and then to have this leader, one thing that she did was she would she would say, you know, Meg, I'm really concerned about something and get me very nervous. And she'd quote something that happened offsite away from work three or four months ago, and say it's been in the back of her mind for months and not address it with me in real time. And once it was just um a friend of mine was we were walking in the pride parade, uh, which was really fun. We had like a corporate float and everyone was in a really good mood. Everyone was wearing, you know, rainbow and it was very celebratory. And I was, it was my responsibility to take photographs and document, which I was more than happy to do. But my friend had a bubble blower and was blowing bubbles right into the camera lens, which I was obviously not very pleased about. And so I kind of playfully flipped him off, but my boss saw it happen. And then three months later, she said, I can't believe you flipped off the pride parade. Oh my good god. As if I was uh doing something offensive to the LBGTQ plus community, which was absolutely not the case. It was a microsecond, you know. It was uh something I was doing to a friend, and actually I was facing away from the crowd when I did that, just to kind of show him to, you know, a nonverbal cue to please stop messing up my photos.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Yeah. And and that should have been addressed like the next day or when you're back at work.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

In real time, absolutely. After the weekend, say, you know, that's not appropriate. I don't appreciate you um doing that because you're representing the company even though it's outside of company hours, that would have been fine. Yeah. But it was this strange kind of lengthy speech three months later, and I was kind of floored. So there were a lot of, huh? moments like that. Where it's just like, where is this coming from? And um yeah, and very different personalities, so and working styles. So, you know, that's always challenging too if you're if you're working with someone or thrown onto a project with someone and they just could not be more different from you. So I'm curious, Donna, I don't know if you've experienced this with the team you're managing now, but how do you how do you manage kind of diverse personalities like that?

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Yeah, I mean, I think again, it goes back to um really listening and um like the communication piece. I have to say, like in my current role, I have just such an amazing team that we haven't really run into any major issues like that, but uh I I have in my past for sure. Yeah. And um it really is kind of setting boundaries with that person and um and setting expectations, right? Like not everybody is going to like me as a leader, right? Um, it's just I want like a cohesive team, so we're very close that way. But I have to make big decisions and I have to make decisions that not everybody's going to like, but at the end of the day, I always have to come back to the organization and the mission and are we are we staying true to that? And um, and so I've been able to like mentor and coach my team to do the same thing, and you know, they have to make tough decisions as well. And but really it's all about expectations and and like boundaries and I'm approachable and easy to talk to, but I'm also like when there's stuff that has to get done, like I have this very not intense, but it's like they all know it's like when we're doing something, our heads are down and we're doing it, and um but when there's you know it's a little lighter, we have some fun and and it's just about respecting each other. But yeah, I've had some really tough experiences in the past, like crazy experiences where I've had to call police and really being stalked by like a former employer or an employee, and yeah, so just some like really crazy stories, like um, but at the end of the day, you know, it really just comes back to the decisions and um everything is about like what's best for the organization.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

So yeah, and I love what you said about respect. I think you don't have to love every member of your team at the same level every moment of the day. There's gonna be ebb and flow, but you have to show up with mutual respect. Absolutely. And you have to, as you say, listen. Uh, you know, we listen and we don't judge. Right. You know, try try to live live those values. And uh, you know, sometimes that's hard, but um, but yeah, and and being civilized. I mean, I think I learned a lot about um those interpersonal dynamics, uh, even going through a divorce, because you know, um you have children together, or at least you and I are in that situation where we are separated um from our ex-husbands, but we have children together, you have to communicate openly, you have to plan logistics, you have to coordinate, you have to be civil, you have to be respectful and put the child first. And in this case, you know, the child is the company, right? Like you put you put the organization first.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yeah, all the time, right? And I have to say, like, I've learned so much over the years from my teams, right? Like when I started out in a leadership role, it was by accident, really. Like I was yeah, I was kind of planning on being a stay-at-home mom. Someone asked me to be an executive director at this not-for-profit, and they wanted to do change management and transitioning, and I was like, I don't even know what that means. Like, how am I supposed to do that? Wow. But I, you know, I made a lot of mistakes aro along the way, like, you know, going in there, like, I'm the boss, and um Yeah, kind of evolving. And I think we do. I mean, I was in my early 30s when I took that job. Okay, now I'm in my mid-50s. So there was a lot of growing up, there was a lot of learning, and you know, I I think every every job I've had since then and the teams that I've had have taught me something about leadership, about working in communities, you know, that cultural competency, just like so much. And I'm and I'm grateful for every opportunity that I've had and all the learnings that I've had from my teams, from the the um participants of the programs that we run, like all of it. It's been like kind of a beautiful journey um with a lot of bumps.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Yeah, well, I mean, you have to kind of fail on a small scale to grow and learn and and get better in your role, right? And I'm sure we've both encountered a lot of that in our careers because we didn't start working yesterday. No. Um what do you what do you mean, man?

SPEAKER_01 13:42

My God. Forever young guys, forever young. No, I just I just kind of like out at myself. Started in my mid-30s, now I'm in my mid-50s. You know, we talked about that, the leader or the boss who influenced us in a negative way. Yeah. Um, but I I really do want to kind of talk about a woman who inspired me as a female leader. Oh, do tell. Uh yeah. So so later in my career, um, I met a woman, Marianna Cowan, and she was on my, she was board chair when I worked at an organization and um relatively new, you know, to that role. Well, I was new to that role, and she was just so incredible. And, you know, I could bounce ideas off of her. Um, she was thoughtful, she was kind, she was deeply passionate, like helping people, but she was also extremely successful in her career. Right. Right. And I mean, beautiful and so well put together, like you know, she just showed me that women in leadership don't have to be cold, they don't have to be distant, they don't have to be intimidating. Yeah, and she taught me that you know you can be strong and kind. She, you know, she taught me that you can be decisive and compassionate, and just watching her lead helped me realize that the best leaders don't lead through fear, that they lead through trust.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

I love that. Actually, you know what? Since you name someone, I'm also going to name someone. Um, and um, I hate to sound like Debbie Downer here, but this person is actually someone who is in a mentorship position, but they were a leader and kind of um strong member of the nonprofit community, actually, because I will confess when I look back on my illustrious career, um I I've had a lot of challenging bosses, difficult dynamics. So, I mean, I think there's obviously a reason why I went into business for myself and, you know, became the person who builds teams versus uh someone who is a member of um a previously established team. But anyway, this lady is Carol McDougall. She might be retired now, but she was uh, I believe, director of communications at United Way, uh at their Dartmouth office there. And uh she was so classy. I would say the words I would use to describe her is calm, unflappable, and really had gravitas. I as a I was a public relations student at NSCC at the time when I initially connected with her. She was a member of the mentor program that they offer students, which I think is such a great idea. Yeah. Um, I was so intimidated because she was, I could tell she was really in the um a really successful chapter of her career. But she was really had a don't sweat the small stuff philosophy and take everything as a learning opportunity, you know, be a sponge, just take it in and think about what's the lesson here. What's the lesson, you know, don't get don't get bogged down over, you know, whatever the professional version of spilled milk is, right? It's just like move on uh with grace and figure out what the lesson is and how you can apply it moving forward. And she was very kind to take time out of her very busy schedule because you know, not for profits, it's full out all the time. And it's a big job to mentor, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:09

You really have to like when we when my not to in not to no sorry, but you know, when my team members will come to me and they're like, Oh, we have an opportunity to take, you know, an NSCC student or you know, a student from DAL or wherever, yep. And I'm like, as long as we have a clear role and as long as they're going to learn something and not just be like shredding paper, yeah, like hanging around and getting coffee. Right. Yeah, I always want it to be meaningful for the organization and for the student. So it does take a lot of work. So I like I mean, like you said, Carol working in not-for-profit, like and to take that time, it's a huge, it's huge.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Oh yeah. I was I was so grateful, and we still kept in touch um intermittently via LinkedIn, and she was always a strong supporter, which I really appreciated. And I think um when I was in my late 20s, early 30s, I got really hung up on the hierarchy of you know, leadership and you know, a manager or supervisor or CEO versus the underlings. And now that I'm actually in a position to run my own business and put together small teams, so really like I'm you know, a microcosm version of what you do, um, you know, I really don't get hung up on, you know, I'm I'm the team lead on this, or you know, I don't get precious about who's owning which piece of this project. I think it's just communicate, listen, collaborate, and try to have fun with it, you know. And now I get to choose to work with people who I really admire. I love their work, I love their work ethic and their style and the kind of humor and empathy that they bring to the role that they're in. So, um, and and years of experience, of course. Although I work with junior folks, intermediate and senior as well, depending on the needs of the project. But yeah, I think, you know, hierarchy is like you said, you know, you were walking in kind of like you started out like, okay, I'm the boss. Oh, let's do this, and like you're I think you learn pretty quickly. Yeah, you're like, wait, maybe I should try a different approach.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Yeah, no, it's so true. And I was wondering, like, when your when someone reaches out to you um for your for your services, yeah. Um, do you does alignment and uh values help you decide whether you're going to work with that person or you know, is it more about okay, it's it's a project, I need the money, I'm gonna work on it. Like have you ever turned clients away because you just they they didn't align with your values or you knew they might be difficult to work with? Like, has that ever happened?

SPEAKER_00 19:52

That is such a great question because yeah, it's definitely something that I've grappled with a lot. In year one of being in business, I just said yes. I said yes to everything. I was scared to be out on my own. I knew I needed to earn. I mean, single mom here, had a daughter to support. Um, so I was just in a mode of saying yes. But because I said yes to every little thing that came my way, I realized I got burned a few times and realized, oh, this is the type of work I do not want to do. So now that I'm a hair over two years in business, I'm trying to be far more intentional and yes, work with folks whose values align with mine. I focus primarily on female founders and mostly those who work in the health and wellness space. Uh, I'm working with a um health-centric nonprofit, which um the team is entirely women, and then the CEO is a man, which and they joke about that dynamic and what that's like. And uh and I I kind of love it. And it's a very small team and they get on really well. Um, so you know, once I get to know the team better and understand what their needs are, and I'm like, oh, I just I just love these people. I love what they do, I love what they represent, I love the way they work with each other and how respectful they are and grateful for the support, right? I think it's more challenging to have a client who comes in with this preconceived notion of what they want and assume that they are the marketing expert and I'm just gonna do exactly what they say the way that they say it. Right. You're hiring me not just to execute, but also on a strategic level to help you build a sustainable plan. So I think there's a balance that needs to be established there. So that was a long-winded answer, but but yes, absolutely. Like you're you're two plus of business. I really care about um the type of business, the type of founder, um, the way they treat their staff and what they stand for. Those are all really important to me.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Yeah. They would be to me as well. Like when I uh and when I hire, those are qualities I look for. Like I know I was hiring a few years ago um Michelle when she was on Oh yeah so she actually I hired her as my EA originally. Oh did you yeah and um I interviewed a few people and it came down to her and one other person and the other person had years and years of experience as an EA, and Michelle had never like she'd had a lot of experience in administration and managing like small teams, but never as an EA. Oh and I remember going home and saying to my partner at the time, like I know like on paper I should be hiring this person who can really take control over like what's on my desk. Right. I said this one girl, she just like the the connection was there and she had like the tenacity and the drive, and um I went with her because of just the alignment, her values, like how hard she had worked, um, and and now she's the director of operations. Oh, that's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

So clearly a good hire.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Yeah, absolutely. But you just you know, for me, I don't always hire the best skilled or best experience. It really comes down to like team dynamic, like the culture, because we have such a great culture now that we don't really want to disrupt that. So it really, you know, when we're when I'm hiring or what anyone on my team is hiring, it really comes down to are they gonna fit into our culture?

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Yeah, I think those soft skills are so important and uh and undervalued sometimes. I mean, someone can look really good on paper, but you need to understand how they're gonna interact with your coworkers and uh, you know, are they gonna be additive to that culture that you're so carefully building and curating um and not take away from that and or throw a wrench in it. So, you know, that's why the I feel the face-to-face in the interview is so important versus having like an algorithm or AI run through a resume and look for those keywords, right? I mean, yeah, that's an initial piece of the puzzle, yeah, but you really need to get that face-to-face to assess fit.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, we're talking about leadership, but more specifically women in leadership.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, let's talk about leadership between uh men and women's approaches. And actually, before we dive into that, listeners, I just want to drop a few stats here so that you get a sense of how, let's say, uneven it is, even in the year of our Lord 2026. So uh I looked at a few studies just because I was curious. And uh there was a 2025 report, uh Rosenweig report. I don't even know if I'm pronouncing that correctly, but it's an annual study of Canada's largest corporations and uh takes a takes a look at the top 100 largest publicly traded companies within Canada. So I'm only looking at Canadian stats, by the way. And so for folks as named executive officers, like CEO, CFO, things like that, women only held 66 out of 527 positions. So that's, you know, a little over 12% of top executive roles that were held by women, which apparently isn't all-time high. Don't sound too high to me. Uh, and still more than like 87% of top executive positions were held by men. Um, and then there was uh another one here that I saw, the Prosperity Project annual report card on women in leadership, which was released in 2025, so not that long ago. Uh women held 43.4% of leadership roles and uh 40.6% of executive officer roles, which is up 30% from 2021. Uh, but overall, um, in Canada, based on a recent Grant Thornton report, 19% of CEOs in Canada were women. And it's far more common to see women in lower level leadership roles within senior management, human resources, finance, and marketing. Hi, I'm a marketer. So uh really between it kind of the it's in flux where across studies, 10 to 20% of CEOs in Canada are women. That's that's pretty low, guys.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

What was that? What percentage?

SPEAKER_00 26:22

10 to 20% of CEOs are women within Canada.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Wow, that is super low.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

I know, right? We need to change that, ladies. We really do. We really do. So, so yeah, let's talk about kind of um differences that we've experienced between men and women in leadership roles. Donna, what's your take on that? Hmm. I know it's a big question.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Well, I think, you know, historically, and actually it's not even historically, we've just seen it now. Yeah, this year. This year. This year, um, you know, it's very male dominated for sure. And um I, you know, I I wanted to say I think we we're seeing a shift, but from those stats, I don't think we're maybe a very small shift.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

It is up from before, like it there is a trend uh of it going up, but I mean it's still way less than 50%. So I mean it's kind of shocking to me.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Yeah, I know, right? Yeah, and I think like male, um male-dominated or male leaders are more like decisive, aggressive, and competitive. And women really tend to lead with collaboration, communication, and emotional intelligence. Yes, compassion. Yeah, and I think those skills are becoming more um more valued in the workplace than they used to be. So, not because women lead better than men, but because diverse leadership styles make organizations stronger. You know, what I've learned, again, like I told you the first time I walked in um as an executive director, I was like, I'm the boss, she's the boss. Um and uh, you know, what I've learned over the 20-some years is that you know, leading with empathy and leading with strength um get you so much further ahead, right? And and I also like I've led a lot and I've hired a lot by my intuition, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Right, you know, like I can't And that's clearly served you well over the years, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

And every time I go against my intuition, it's a wrong hire. Like every time. Interesting. Yeah, and so I've I've kind of gone now with my with my gut, right? I don't know why I'm hiring them, but my gut says hire them.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Well, you've kind of been in the business world long enough where you can trust your gut. You know, you have that lived experience, you know what works and what doesn't work deep down. So that's amazing. Like that's you need that to succeed at your level. Yeah, it's interesting. I I agree with you. I think the collaboration, compassion, and um again, you know, going back to the hierarchy, not focusing on that so much. Um, my eight-year job in a corporate setting, uh, we had a reputation for being very top-heavy. So, so many managers uh at various levels. Um, you know, category managers, um, you know, supervisors who are called managers, just yeah, uh kind of optics were not great on that. And it was, when I was there at least, quite male-dominated. And it just felt like a lot of kind of um there was some aggression, there was some anger, there was some posturing, not all the time, but with the folks that did it, it really altered the energy within the team and brought everybody down. And I just think that kind of approach is outdated and it's not necessary, and it doesn't help. Yeah, and just I I find it ironic that I've met with some male managers that feel that uh women are too emotional to lead, but the most emotion I've seen in a boardroom is uh from men, and it comes through anger, kind of not getting what they want, or someone talking over them, or someone disagreeing with them, especially in a public space like a meeting where there are a lot of their peers there. I've seen a lot of angry outbursts, and they are never from women, in my experience. They are from men. Yeah, no, I have to agree with that as well. Yeah, so you've experienced that too. Yeah, in the past. In the past. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so one situation that I was in that I found very difficult and trying at the time, but ultimately helped me decide to start my own business and help me understand what makes a good leader, is before I went out on my own, I was working for a boutique digital marketing agency, which was fully remote, uh, so very pandemic friendly. We did not have a brick and mortar office to go to, but we did have some team building exercises and barbecues and things in person, which was lovely. But the person who hired me, the CEO of that company, um, he and I uh had a good relationship. Um, but he became utterly burned out and uh needed a change of pace. So he stepped away from that position and then the sales manager stepped up to become the new CEO. And it happened quite quickly, and I was a bit surprised by it all. But she was very hands-off, very much um leaving the work to the workers kind of thing. Um, she was often difficult to get a hold of, would disconnect on key projects. If I asked for advice, she would say, Well, I don't have appropriate context on the project, so you should just make a decision and go with it. So based on that lived experience within that role, I reached out to her less and less and took on more and more and uh realized that I was kind of, you know, uh using corporate speak here, but basically doing soup to nuts on all projects. I was doing the initial client intake, I was looking to kind of bring on board new clients, I was working on budget, invoicing, project management, deliverables, weekly team meetings. And then I realized, wait, I'm doing all of this for the same paycheck. I just keep on taking more and more on. And my paycheck and my job description hasn't changed. Maybe I could just go it alone and do this myself. So, and it was actually helpful for me to be able to lead those team meetings, uh, which happen once a week, so that I could understand what issues everybody was struggling with and if there was anything that I could do in my role, even though I was not the manager, to make their lives a little easier. It was an amazing learning experience for me. So, I mean, major struggle and definitely some resentment on my side when I was stepping up and taking on more work, but led me to the decision to start my own uh digital agency and honestly, no regrets.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

That's great. I love that. Um gosh, I've had a lot of uncomfortable situations over over my career. Um, but I think you know, every leader eventually has to has that moment when you realize uh this is where I grow or this is where I shrink. Um and for me it was with a very male-dominated board, and um, you know, I was a female leader, and I don't know if you know they hired me because they just wanted a puppet, but they found out they didn't have a puppet. Right. And so, you know, they wanted to make some changes that were not in the best interest of the organization, but more self-serving. Right. And so I had to draw the line in the sand that you know I was not going to back this up at all. Right. And that if this was the way that they wanted me to lead the organization, then I wasn't the right person for the organization.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Uh how far in were you at that point to the role? About six months.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

Oh wow. Yeah, yeah. So still like new to the role and you know, didn't know the organization, didn't know them, but I again it goes back to that integrity and always doing what is best for the organization. Right. And so I drew a really like like the line in the sand, and I said, if this is the direction you're going in, I'm not the right person. And uh he ended up they all ended up resigning. So six board members resigned. No, yeah, oh my goodness, simultaneously, yes, wow, and uh and the tension they kind of gave me like three months' notice, and the tension like I didn't even speak at board meetings.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Oh my goodness, yeah, that's so uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Yeah, but it was the best decision for the organization. I mean, and that's a hard decision coming in as a new leader, no kidding. And you know, your boss, like they could have easily said, You're fired, right? Right, but I decided that you know I couldn't allow that to happen for my own integrity. I didn't want to be linked to that, and it wasn't in the best interest for the organization. So that was a hard decision for me to make. Now it worked out well, right? Um, but at the time I was like, I'm fucked.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

Yeah. But it says something if you look back today on that decision and you still feel good about it and like it was the right thing for the organization. So I mean that's a pretty powerful statement. And gutsy to do six months in, because I don't know if I would have been brave enough to. Yeah, I don't even know if it was six months.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Yeah, it was about five or six months in. Wow. Yeah, yeah. It was it was uh gutsy. That's amazing. Um, but again, it was that, you know, I can either grow or shrink, and I'm not shrinking.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Yeah, it's okay to change up space, especially in a leadership role. Yeah. Uh so kind of appropriate to our conversation, especially about the styles and approaches of men versus women as leaders. Uh, this week, uh Enter the Manosphere came out. Uh, and I don't know if uh you listeners are lit are familiar with Louis Thoreau, who is a very well-known British documentarian and um has done many, many different docs and kind of focuses on the fringe folks in society, um, and is really known for actually curating uncomfortable moments, you know, like moments of silence and just kind of staring someone down and waiting for them to give an honest answer. So kind of ties back to that conversation that we just had. But um one thing that I found really interesting, uh, and you know, I won't spoil the doc too much, although I I don't think that's possible because the Manosphere content is out there and the red pill influencers. But uh a few folks in the doc said that there is um men are born with no value and women have inherent value. And I thought that was really interesting, but then I did a big old eye roll when I found out that women's inherent value is their quote unquote pure beauty and the fact that they just possess breasts and a vagina. And I'm like, oh God, you ruined it. You ruined it. So, you know, I would like to reframe that and say that women and men both have inherent value, and I think should both be considered equally for leadership roles. And let's do everything we can to push the stats in 2026, no less, above 19% of women in Canada in CEO roles because I think it should be based on prior experience, but not gender, and definitely look at soft skills as well. Are they bringing empathy? Are they going to be able to lead a team and retain that team and keep them happy and fulfilled and engaged in their work and their purpose?

SPEAKER_01 38:13

Right. Yeah, no, I love that. You don't have to be pretty.

SPEAKER_00 38:17

Yeah, you don't have to possess pure beauty, whatever that is. That just like makes me cringe. I know, right? Yeah, I saw you like recoil when I said that. Well, that's all we have today for our chat on leadership. And uh let us know what you think. Let us know what your icky, uncomfortable experiences have been with male or female leaders and how that affected your role and uh, you know, what lessons you brought into uh future jobs. We're so curious. This has been She Shed Unfiltered, where midlife isn't polished, it's real. From divorce and career pivots to perimenopause and everything no one warned us about. These are the honest conversations we've lived, survived, and shared with you today. Until next time, stay brave, be curious, and keep it unfiltered.