Episode 9: Avoidant, Narcissistic — Or Just Not Choosing You? Dr. Jim Gouthro

Why do some relationships feel intense, confusing, and emotionally exhausting,  even when nothing is technically “wrong”?

In this episode of She Shed Unfiltered, Donna and Meg are joined by their friend Dr. Jim Gouthro, who holds a doctorate in Social Work, for a thoughtful conversation about the relationship patterns many people struggle to make sense of.

Together they explore avoidant behaviours, narcissistic tendencies, and emotional unavailability, not as diagnoses, but as dynamics that can quietly shape relationships.

They talk about why these patterns can be so difficult to recognize in the moment, why strong and self-aware women still find themselves pulled into them, and what clarity looks like once you begin to see the pattern.

This conversation isn’t about labeling people.

It’s about awareness, and learning to trust what you feel when something in a relationship doesn’t sit right.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:05

Welcome to Sheep Shed Unfiltered. This is not a podcast for perfect women or polite conversation. This is for the women who've been divorced, dismissed, burnt out, betrayed, and still somehow managed to show up, get shit done, and keep everyone else still alive. There'll be laughter, there may be tears, and you might even say, did they really say that shit? Just real women, real stories, and the kind of honesty that usually happens after the second glass of wine. The first season of She Shed Unfiltered is about the things we learned the hard way. The lessons no one warned us about, the moments that changed us. Whether we were ready or not. I'm Donna. And I'm Meg. Have you ever met someone and thought, this feels different? The chemistry, the connection, the way they made you feel seen. And then slowly you start second-guessing yourself. You feel unsettled, a little anxious, like you're working harder than you should have to. But nothing is technically wrong. So you tell yourself you're overthinking. Today we're talking about that space. Welcome back to She Shed Unfiltered. Narcissistic, avoidant, or just emotionally unavailable? Why do some relationships feel magnetic at the beginning, but confusing and emotionally draining over time? Why is it so hard to tell the difference between someone who is struggling and someone who simply doesn't have the capacity to show up? Today's conversation is not about diagnosing people, it's not about labeling exes, and it's definitely not about plain armchair psychologist. It's about patterns, it's about behaviors, and it's about learning to trust what you feel when something doesn't feel right.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

We wanted someone in the shed who understands relationships, not just from theory, but from decades of sitting with people in moments of stress, crisis, separation, and transition. So we're really grateful to have our friend Jim joining us today. Jim holds a doctorate in social work, along with his masters of social work, and is a registered social worker with over 20 years of experience. He's worked in hospital-based acute and emergency care, family counseling, crisis intervention, separation and divorce support, addictions, child welfare, and program development. Jim works at the IWK, also occasionally at the Emerge, as well as teaching social work at Dow. But more than credentials, Jim has spent two decades helping people navigate emotionally complex dynamics. And that perspective is exactly why we wanted him here. Jim, welcome to the shed.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Great, thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_04 2:59

Why do some relationships feel like the best chemistry of your life, but end up being the most destabilizing?

SPEAKER_01 3:06

For me, um, in the work that I've done over the years, I think a lot of times folks, um, when they first meet someone, there's there's attraction there. And sometimes the attraction can be based on intimacy, it can be based on lust. And that's kind of becomes the priority in a relationship. But over time, those things start to fade away or they become a less of a priority uh for couples or folks that are in a relationship. And that's I think where the struggle starts to happen because um other things don't take the place of that in relation to communicating or having um effective communication or effectively communicating with each other, you know, resolving issues in regards to when you have our arguments, for example. So for me, that's what I first uh feel is uh is uh is the answer to that particular question. But I'd love to hear from you guys.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

Yeah, I mean, I think we all feel that when you start out in a relationship, you know, you have the butterflies and you're like, oh my god, like this person's incredible. And then you start to see some red flags, but you overlook those red flags because of the feeling that you get, or you know, oh, this is the best person I've ever met. Yeah, that's a little bit of a red flag, but this all makes up for that one red flag. And then you just stop like you start second guessing yourself, like maybe it's maybe it's me, maybe I'm expecting too much, you know, and and um you know, in my experience, I I I know that I have trauma bonded in the past, and I didn't even know that was a thing until I started doing therapy this past year, and I was like, trauma bonding, and I'm like, wow, wow, that's crazy. Like, um I never thought that I you know, I'm a strong independent woman, I never thought I would trauma bond, but that's my pattern.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Yeah, right. And Donna, when you say trauma bonding, you basically mean in relation to if you see some of those similarities in someone else. Is that part of that trauma bonding, maybe if that person is is struggling in some way, or because sometimes I see in relationships or folks that I've done work with over the years, is that sometimes they're very much attracted to similarities in themselves, maybe educational um interests or educational advancement. Sometimes they're also attracted to uh maybe personality traits that are very similar, or sometimes if there is um is if there is trauma in somebody's past, sometimes there is an attraction to that as well, as funny as it sounds, because it kind of it's that commonality that people experience. Yeah. Is that what you mean by that?

SPEAKER_04 5:56

Um actually I can relate to that. Like that resonates a lot. Um what what I was in like when I was in therapy, uh, I had a very traumatic experience happen to me just months before, actually a month before I met my ex-husband. And he was very safe, right? And I liked that because I felt so unsafe. And then in my past relationship, um I had been terminated from a job I loved, and I was very like my nervous system was just off the charts, and I met him and he just kind of made me feel safe again. So making me feel safe, right? Yeah, um, but I do in my last relationship, we had a lot of similarities, like um, and that's why I thought he was the one because there were so many similarities. Um, but then there was also a lot of gaslighting I didn't even realize was gaslighting until after the fact. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Meg?

SPEAKER_03 6:59

Yeah, it's interesting that you talk about red flags because I feel like in those early days when you're really attracted to someone and you're really feeling it, it's hard to see those red flags. And I find specifically for the last person I was dating for only six weeks, I had to text my girlfriend and say, are these red flags or pink flags? And because I am not seeing straight, I am very into this person, and it's really hard in the moment to have that objectivity around who they really are and if it's a good fit. It's it's not even about them being a good or bad person, but do they share the same values? I think we're so interested in checking boxes and saying, okay, are our tastes the same? Are our situations the same? Did we grow up in the same way? But what are our priorities in life? What are our values? Uh, even around how we enjoy, curate our friendships and our family relationships. I think all of that stuff is important, but we don't think about that in early days. And I feel like I've missed so many red flags because you just get so excited and you get that energy from someone and that attraction, and it blinds you sometimes to what lies underneath. So I tend to pull my friends and my sister who I trust in in those moments to say, Am I crazy? Is this a thing I should be worried about or what?

SPEAKER_04 8:30

It's interesting that you um pull your family and friends in because both my ex and my ex-husband, my sister and my mother didn't like either one of them in the beginning, but learned to like you know, they love both of them as the relationship developed. But both of them were like, no, not not for you, not for you. And it's interest, like I'm like, oh, you don't even know him. Like, you don't know him, he's a great guy. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Yeah, right. And how would you respond? Like, I I think sometimes I think it's a great idea, you know, to not only get to know the person and learn about their family, so on and so forth, but when you you know, to talk with family members, talk with close friends and get their feedback as well, too. If they come back and they said to you and said, um, you know, I really don't like this guy. You know, he just doesn't sit well with me. He's just he just seems like a bit of an ass, right? How would you respond to that? Especially if you're in a stage of you know, that that that really attracted stage and intimacy is fantastic, the lust is there, it's it's just and you think this is the one.

SPEAKER_04 9:42

I think it would definitely make you take a step back and look at it more objectively. I don't know, again, I don't know if I would be like, uh, just because Jim doesn't like him doesn't mean you know he's not a good guy. He's just not seeing him the way I'm seeing him. But I think it would maybe be make me a little bit more aware.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:05

Yeah, everyone liked my ex. So there were no red flags until after you break up, and then they're like, well, there was like this one little thing.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

Yeah, some people won't tell you until after the fact. So sometimes you want that honesty versus the diplomacy in the moment, right? It's like I know you love me and you don't want to rock the boat, but sometimes you just want that honest, unvarnished opinion when you're not in a place to be objective. And I notice I've kind of picked my people as far as that goes. My sister is very honest. So even if my friends will say, Oh, yeah, it's fine, it's not a big deal. Shake it off, it's fine. You seem to really adore him. My sister is very, very honest to a fault. So if I want the real answer, I will go to her. And I feel like everyone needs at least one person in their life like that. Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:58

My uh my best dude's like that, and we we tell it like it is like, no, I don't like that guy. Like, he's an asshole. And she's like, I don't care. I'm like, um, I'm just warning you right now, he's an asshole. And she's like, I know he is. I'm like, all right, let me know. I'm here for you.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

And that's good. It's good to have somebody who can really tell you, right? Because that's as much as you maybe don't want to hear that, it's and it kind of can be a bit biting to hear that from somebody else, especially somebody close to you. It really can stick with you. It it really can kind of help you see something a little bit differently, see a different lens as it relates to a real in regards to a relationship.

SPEAKER_04 11:33

Yeah, and I love that we had um Lexi and her two friends on a few episodes back talking about dating, and Lexi was like, My mom didn't like my last boyfriend, and she's like, I will always take her opinion because she's like, she knows I'm gonna tell her exactly what I think. I'm not gonna be like, oh yeah, no, you know, he's a nice guy, or he's a nice guy, but he's not for you. He's not for you. I can, you know, I I I do like her boyfriend now. I'm happy with him, but uh, I'm just glad that she, you know, most people don't take their parents' opinion. Yeah, right? That's so true. That's amazing that she takes it's that that's good.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Says a lot about your relationship, yeah. And how close and how strong it is. So that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 12:19

Yeah, it does. And I feel like even if we are defensive in the moment, if someone is, you know, quote unquote attacking or being honest about a new partner, we might get our backup in the moment. But I feel like if we're really love and trust that person in our lives, then that will stay in the back of our head. And we'll ponder it and turn it around, turn it over like a stone in our hands, like, oh, maybe I should give this a second look. I don't know. Maybe this does mean something and I'm I'm not seeing things clearly. When I was in a relationship after my marriage ended, it was classic rebound. He was young, fun, five years younger, and my sister called him my baby boyfriend, which I really took umbrage with at the time. Like, rude. Do not call him my baby boyfriend, and definitely don't say that when he's around. But looking back, it was actually kind of an apt nickname because he had no EQ. Uh, he was very successful in business, and I think I was very much wowed by that, and he was very loud and overconfident and had this kind of swagger about him. But emotionally, he just didn't understand a lot of what I was going through and would kind of lean on this toxic posity. Everything will be fine, you're good, you're fine. Just not acknowledging my emotions or giving me space to really express them. So, you know, kudos to my sister, even though I hated her at the time, but she was absolutely right.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

But you do grow from those relationships, no matter how long or how short. Um, you know, you you you become a bit of a different person. Um, it it allows you to see situations a bit differently after the fact. Sometimes it's challenging and it's how painful it is when relationships end, whether abruptly or sometimes not abruptly. There is an opportunity to grow. And it is uncomfortable. And I always say to folks all the time, uh, the way that you can grow is to become uncomfortable. Right. And sometimes that's part of that.

SPEAKER_04 14:24

Yeah. Yeah. I've been uncomfortable. Oh many two.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

You've had a pretty rough year. You've had a pretty rough year, Donna.

SPEAKER_04 14:32

And the only thing that feels like it's growing are my like my stomach. My pants are getting tighter. Um Meg brought up like before, actually before you came, Jim, we were talking about um the question that you had, Meg, around like narcissistic being a narcissist versus having like narcissistic behavior.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

Yes, absolutely, Donna. So one thing that we were talking about, Jim, was that a lot of words used in therapy, which are actual bona fide diagnoses or you know, mental health issues, these terms are being bandied about, um, kind of in place of calling someone an asshole, basically, or selfish, you know. So for example, oh, he's just a gaslighter, or um they're just a narcissist. So we would love for you to speak to, especially narcissism, how that actually uh presents in a person legitimately versus what we like to call a narcissist that's just surface level bad behavior in the context of a relationship.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Okay. Um you know, and I think there's some really good points there. Um, I think that sometimes we're just sometimes we're just fine, trying to find the words for some people and trying to figure out. True enough. Yeah, absolutely 100%. And I think sometimes we say, well, you know, he's a narcissist, or he's he's just self-centered, or he's just that very avoidant, or he or she, I shouldn't say he, but he or she uh can be avoidant or emotionally disconnected. And I thought sometimes I think it's just us just trying to find the words to to define somebody and but also help to ease how we're feeling about the situation as well, too. And I and I with narcissism, from my understanding, and again, this is just through my experiences of working with folks, and I can't say I work with a lot of narcissists. Uh I don't I knew some narcissists, um, you know, certainly uh narcissists who are uh uh folks that I knew quite well. But a lot of times with narcissism, you can have tendencies of narcissism too. It doesn't mean you you've been diagnosed as as as a narcissistic behavior or a narcissistic um disorder, but you can have tendencies of narcissism. Like some people who are just very self-centered or very self-focused or have uh who always has to be um uh receive that approval or constantly being told that they're great or they're wonderful.

SPEAKER_04 17:11

They need to be the good person on the other hand.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

They need to be the good person, right? So there are tendencies that people can have, but again, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're actual narcissists that they've been diagnosed as having a disorder of narcissists, right? If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 17:26

And I also think that we all have a little bit of that in us, I think so, right? Like I don't think, you know, when I think of, you know, sometimes I'm a Gemini, so I have many personalities that come out, but I think we all have that, those moments of, you know, it's about us or what whatever it is, self-centered or selfish moments, whether you know it's a narcissistic behavior.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Yeah, I think I think that's a really good point because I think again it goes back to those tendencies that we talked about before that maybe there's things that we're just uh you know, we we enjoy, you know, we get we enjoy getting that positive reinforcement. But doesn't mean you're a narcissist. No, you know, maybe that shows a little bit of a tendency of narcissism, but no, it doesn't mean you're a narcissist, right? Or or people who are OCD, like I know I'm OCD.

SPEAKER_04 18:11

Oh, yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

100%, right? And I probably have some tendencies in narcissism as well, too. And I like things to be a certain way, but doesn't mean I'm actually a full-blown someone who has a diagnosis of OCD. Because there are qu um there are criteria that goes with that. Right. And you have and usually somebody, for example, like a psychiatrist, a psychologist, or folks who basically would diagnose you with a disorder like that. So so not everybody out there, for example, you know, if you think that you're doing something in particular, you're not gonna say, well, listen, I think I may have a narcissist, a narcissistic disorder. Chances are you probably don't. Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

Yeah, and it's certainly if you are worried about any of that, uh we recommend going to therapy because it's always good talking those things through and getting an outside perspective. You know, we get so caught up in our heads. I mean, certainly speaking as an anxious overthinker, I think it's a can be a bit dangerous to self-diagnose or to try to diagnose others. There's uh there can be a danger in that, and we're definitely all of us selfish now and again, but the question is context. It always comes down to context. You know, is it selfish as an act of self-protection in a moment, or is it actually hurtful to the people around us, the people we love? So certainly getting an outside perspective on that is highly valuable.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Yeah, and I think therapy, I I totally agree with that. I think therapy can be extremely helpful. Um, you know, I I was saying this before we we started the the podcast that uh you know I certainly grew up in a family, an a lovely family, um, but certainly I truly believe that my mom and my dad were undiagnosed from a mental health perspective. Um and you kind of grew up in that environment uh where you were kind of wondering why you know why were they feeling that way? Why were they sad for so long or why were they so defensive? And you take you carry that conceptual baggage with you as you get older. And um I know for me, when we talk about the importance of therapy and how beneficial it is, and it certainly sounds like it's been beneficial here in the she shed, but for me, even going through the degree programs that I did uh from a social work perspective, I said that was the best seven years of therapy that I ever received because I'm very much a different person today compared to what I was previously.

SPEAKER_04 20:38

Well, it makes you more self-aware too, right? And and then you start to like not question yourself, just understand yourself better, right? Like I know that um, you know, when when Meg and I started this podcast, it really was part of my healing journey so that I could understand, you know, where I didn't have closure in my last relationship, I didn't understand what happened. And I have to say, like the last couple of months, it just feels like the best therapy, right? That I and I went to therapy, I've been in therapy, you know, for a while, and even previous to this um relationship ending, just you know, in my past, I've always sought out therapy when I was struggling with different with different things in my life. But I have to say, just you know, talking to people who've gone through it, normalizing some of the feelings that you're having, you know, especially as a woman in a leadership role, you're supposed to be like you feel, you're not supposed to. You feel like you're supposed to be, you know, one way. You have to show up strong, you have to show up like you have it together. And some days you just can't, you know. And and I think just normalizing it, we've all gone through some kind of ending in our life, whether it was a relationship or you know, uh somebody close to you passing away, or you know, whatever it is, we've all gone. Gone through that and just normalizing those feelings so that you don't feel like you're losing it.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Yeah, and I think that's a really good point, Donna, that you know, sometimes, you know, and I and to your point of, you know, being a female and being in a CEO position, you know, there's even higher expectations. And that can be very stressful. But I think sometimes we we we need to realize that our emotions and our feelings are a bit like a roller coaster, too. You know, we can't be the same all the time. And I said, if you are the same all the time, there's something wrong. Right? So you're a narcissist. An obsessive, self-centered narcissist. Uh but but no, it's it's just it is really that our emotions fluctuate. Yeah. And you know, there's days that we feel like you know you could tackle the world, and then there's other days you feel quite a bit less than that, and you're struggling. Yeah. And is that normal? 100%. Yeah. And we all have our challenges. No matter if it's in the straight community or if it's in the gay community or w however you identify, we all have our challenges. Yeah. And you just try to get through them the best way you can. Uh, we say it's good if you have a good support system, right? Uh or or therapy is something that you're very much in tune with, or something that you're also doing as well. Uh, because you don't have to do this stuff alone. No. You know, there there are people that will walk the journey with you and help support you through these things.

SPEAKER_04 23:26

And I think that's so important when you talk about your parents. You know, when you think about 40, 50 years ago, nobody talked about mental health.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Nobody knew what mental health was.

SPEAKER_04 23:37

Exactly. And so you were having these, you know, whatever feelings it was, or whether it was sadness or anger, nobody would talk about it because it didn't feel normal, right? I mean, we're just starting to like talk about mental health, and people are more open to talk about how they're feeling. And and it does, it helps. Again, it goes back to that and normalizing those feelings, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:02

That's right. And knowing that, you know, if there's issues that are bothering you or you're stressed, you have anxiety, or depression, it's not something to be embarrassed about.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

It's something that there's a lot of people in society are struggling with. Uh, and there's help for that. And you just need to reach out. But I I totally agree with you. You're hearing more about mental health and the importance about reaching out, talking with someone. Again, you don't have to walk this journey alone. These things are are are are normal in relation to not just myself, maybe experiencing it, or or somebody else. There's a lot of people out there that are struggling with anxiety or struggling with depression or whatever it may be, based on a particular situation, for example.

SPEAKER_04 24:45

Yeah. And it's I find it so heightened now with you know the economy and the cost of living and the financial strain that's putting on people, right? Like people are struggling today. And you know, everybody I talk to, like whether it's through sheat or whether it's through work or just you know, out and about, um, everybody is struggling.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Yeah, absolutely. Well what are your thoughts, Mike, in regards to what uh Yeah, I agree with that.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

Um, and certainly I'm grateful that there are therapists, there are social workers that have a sliding scale and compassionate pricing and making it very accessible for the general public, regardless of what your financial background is, regardless of what you're able to pay for, because really the ability to talk to someone should be accessible to everyone. And certainly my therapist, uh, who I will not name because he probably wouldn't want me to mention this, um, has a few patients that he sees for no cost because he knows that they need help, but he also understands the financial strain that they're under. So, you know, I would say, and I've spoken to people where they say that finances are um a factor in deciding whether or not to pursue therapy. I would say ask the question, you know, find out if there's compassionate pricing. A lot of uh social workers specifically are a little more affordable, a little more accessible, but are incredibly well equipped, experienced, educated, and able to help you navigate those tricky stages of life. Uh certainly a lot of my clients are in health and wellness, and I work with some therapists as well, and it always impresses me how willing they are to help people and to meet them where they're at.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Yeah, 100%. Absolutely. And I agree with you totally. If you're thinking about therapy or or if you have a great medical plan, fantastic, but it only goes to a certain, a certain um uh cost limit, right? But there's nothing wrong in having a conversation with your therapist, whether it's a professional counselor or a social worker or a psychologist, just to see if they're if they have other types of options available so you can continue that involvement with them. And I think on the most part, and again, I can't speak for the therapists here in Nova Scotia, but I think on the most part, I think there's there there could be some options there to help support somebody in that.

SPEAKER_03 27:20

Yeah, and going back to what you said about how um we we like to give things a name to help us process it. Certainly my therapist and I've heard other therapists say you have to name it to tame it. So I think sometimes that's why we like to say, oh, they're a narcissist, oh, they're an XYZ, right? It categorize it, it puts it in a tidy little box. Uh, it makes it easier for us to understand, to process, to move on potentially. Um, even if there it's only a partial truth that we're admitting in that moment, that it might not be uh exactly what's going on. Uh so you know, again, engaging with therapy will give you better clarity and understanding about how to define, better define the situation and how to name it to tame it so that you understand if you're recovering from a past relationship, you know, what actually went on behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Yeah, I totally agree. And it it is a great opportunity just to kind of go in and see somebody who is non-judgmental, somebody that is going to listen to you, validate you, but challenge you to challenge you as well. But also at the same time you it challenge you in a way of see maybe seeing your situation differently, but also looking at it from a perspective of, you know, what do I need to do to to kind of get over this hurdle? What do I need to do from a copings perspective or a coping strategy perspective to move forward, or maybe not attract maybe somebody similar to that maybe in the future, right? Maybe track somebody who is who is more in line to how I am or where I am now in my life, right? So there are great opportunities to grow with uh with um with support or professional support.

SPEAKER_04 29:11

And I know like you're here as our friend and not like acting in you know uh your your professional capacity, but you know, you talked about giving them some giving people some tools maybe not to choose, you know, maybe you have a pattern of choosing the same type of people or unavailable partners. You know, you've done some work in the past with couples or you know, through relationships. What kind of tools would you recommend to somebody who is choosing the same pattern or choosing somebody like you just said, like they have, you know, you're always you're repeating your patterns, right? Um are there any is there anything that you could think of that um could help people who find themselves in those situations?

SPEAKER_01 30:05

That's a really good question. And I think there's two things that really come to mind for me. I think it's really about one self-reflection, I always say to folks, even in the profession that I'm in, um, we always try to self-reflect. Uh, you know, in regards to you know seeing people on a day-to-day basis, do we feel like we're doing what we need to do, or are we helping them to achieve what they need to achieve? For example, whether it's again what was in private therapy or within a hospital-based setting, so on and so forth. And I always encourage people, you know, do some self-reflection. You know, take some time to really look at yourself in relation to what you feel are your strengths, but also at the same time things that you may want to feel that need to be stronger, right? Or if you feel that you are attracting kind of somebody that you don't want to be attracting, asking yourself those questions. Having those self-reflective questions sometimes can be very helpful in relation to maybe attracting somebody, or hopefully maybe attracting somebody. But I also think too, as well, too, I think there's an opportunity when you do meet people, really get take your time. You know, it doesn't have to be a race. You know, I know there's probably a lot of attraction, a physical attraction. There's probably some lust and stuff like that's going on, but take your time to get to know the person, right? Yeah, and self-reflection can also be part of that as well, too. Yeah, and you know, ask them about you know what they like in life, what their goals in life, what really interests you as a person, what do you really care about, right? Talk about their family, get to know what their family is like, you know, and and sometimes that can kind of give you a bit of an indication, or we talked a little bit earlier about you know, some red flags that you might need to start exploring a little bit more instead of like you said, the but I think both of you said this. You know, you see the red flags, but you kind of overlook them. Right.

SPEAKER_04 31:59

I like the pink flags that the pink flags.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Yeah, the pink flags.

SPEAKER_03 32:03

It's like, are they going to turn red in future though? Are they turning deeper shades of pink? That's a problem. Yeah, I really like Jim what you said about self-reflection because one thing that I've learned over my um life of relationships and dating, etc., is not only doing a mental self-reflection, but a physical one as well. So, how do you feel in your body when you're with this person? I noticed with my last long-term partner, he caused me a lot of anxiety. So there was a lot of like tightening of not feeling comfortable in my own body. What behaviors of yours shift maybe when you're with this person? I started stress eating and gaining a little bit of weight when I was with this individual as kind of a method of self-soothing when I was with them. But definitely I noticed that my behavior and the way I felt in my body was different when I was with them. So, you know, if if being with this person is divorcing you from the best version of yourself, then maybe take a moment to acknowledge that, see what that looks like, and then maybe step back from that person.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

I agree. And you know, I'm taking this from someone I work with, uh, a wonderful person I work with uh uh at the hospital. And she always says to me, as part of self-reflection can also be what fills your cup?

SPEAKER_02 33:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

You know, what what what makes you uh enjoy or or to be around this person? Do they make you feel full? Do they make you feel whole? And it's not based on that checklist that we had talked about before or looking for perfection, but are they doing things to make you feel good in the relationship?

SPEAKER_04 33:44

Right. I think that you know, as a a woman like who's gone through a breakup, it's like especially like a divorced woman, you meet somebody else, so you're like, well, you know, 80% of it is good. 80%. And it's and and it's like, do you settle for 80%? Can people really achieve that 100%? Like your cup is 100% full or is 80% okay? And I used to always think that 80% was okay, and I think now you know, going through two long-term breakups and being 55 and you know, being independent and and at peace, I think like moving forward, my cup has to be 100% full. Like I just don't want 80 or even 90. I want a hundred percent. And if that means it's just me and my dog for the next 20 years, then it's me and my dog for the next 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

And I think that's okay. And I think that's something that a lot of times we don't talk about after a relationship. Is it okay to be single? Is it okay to be alone? Is it okay to be happy? Like you say, yourself, your dog, and you know, your your family, your kids. Right. You know, is that enough for you? For some people, it is. So there's nothing wrong with that because I think we live in a society, and I think both of you referenced that earlier. We have so many pressures out there.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

You know, pressures to conform to to be a particular way, to be in a relationship, or or or it has to be a loving relationship when it's not.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Right. Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

So I think that's that's a really important thing. You know, it's where you again, it's where you feel that cup should be. I can't tell people that. That's an individual response, right? If it is 100% or if it's 95% or whatever it may be, why not? Right.

SPEAKER_03 35:30

Yeah, and I love what Brene Brown said, uh, referring to her own relationship because she's been in a marriage for, I believe, 20 plus years now. She and her husband will get home from work and she might say to her husband, Honey, I've got 50% or 40%. I'm running on empty, I'm so overstimulated, work is crazy, I'm stressed out. And finding out if he can bring 60% in terms of dealing with the house, helping, supporting the kids with homework, with meals, etc. And she said some days you might both be at 40% and you have to muddle through together, but the fact is that you're a team and you're kind of meeting each other where you live and understanding, you know what, honey, I'm at a really low ebb right now. I need a hug and a nap, and I'm barely holding on. Having those check-ins, I think, and really understanding where the other person is at and trying to support them where they're at is a sign of a good relationship.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

And I think communication as part of that is extremely important. You know, you need to tell people. I know body language, facial expressions, the tone of voice. It's super important, right? But it tell the person and say, listen, you know what? I'm just barely getting through it right now. I had a shitty day and I'm just I'm really struggling. Can you take it? Can you take it take the kids on, take them off for a bath, or whatever it needs to be, or play with the kids, or can you make dinner or order out or whatever it may be? Tell them. Tell them because I think a lot of times some people need to hear it and have it resonate in their own head instead of looking at you and saying, Well, you should know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_04 37:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Right.

SPEAKER_04 37:09

Right. Um, interesting. Like we had uh a sexologist and relationship coach on um or while we interviewed her, and she talked about everybody expects that her and her husband would have like, you know, perfect marriage, no, no hiccups because she's a a sexologist, yeah. And probably amazing sex, probably, right? Um but do you feel that like in your relationship, you're in a long-term relationship, being you know, having the education that you have, and I know you that you've you've grown as a person. Do you find that um having that background has helped you, you know, in the you've I mean you've been together a long time?

SPEAKER_01 37:54

Yeah, Sandy and I, yeah. We've been together for uh well uh uh over 25 years, and Sandy's very good at knowing exactly when that is, it's closer to 26, which is fantastic. Have we had our up and ups and downs in the relationship? 100%. Yeah um have there been days that we probably were saying to ourselves more than more than once, more than twice, uh, it's over, it's done. Yeah, absolutely. But you work through it, and we really do try to communicate uh with each other. Is it the best communication, even based on whatever my education is or Sandy's is? It definitely could improve, of course. And that's the thing with relationships. You grow, you figure it out, yeah, and you try to make the adjustments and make the changes that are needed. Um, I think for me, um well yes, was it you know the attraction, the lust, and all that stuff in the beginning? Yeah, and then we had to kind of work on kind of figuring out what needs to replace this as part of that, um, in relation to that communication piece, or in relation to um, you know, being a good listener, or in relation to being a good supporter, or whatever it may be that kind of takes the place of these other things that you're attracted to originally. So it has it been a bit of a roller coaster ride? Absolutely. Right um, and I think as we've gotten older, we've gotten an op we've had an opportunity to really grow on each other and really see the benefit and the strengths that we have in our relationship. So so it's it's been it's been it's been a very good relationship, but has it had its ups and downs? 100%. Have we had to make changes? 100%. Right. You know, and that's no different than a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 39:37

But that's that's what relationships are about, and and I feel like I feel ripped off in my last relationship because it ended so abruptly without communication. And it's like, why couldn't we have just communicated? Why couldn't we have talked about it? Like I didn't think there were issues that big that someone would just leave without properly communicating. And so I do feel really ripped off because I'm a big communicator. Like if I you know, with with if I've had a um, oh my god, a fallout with a friend, I'm like, I want to talk through it because my relationships with people are really important, whether it's you know, uh intimate one, a sexual one, or just a friendship, and to not have an opportunity, again, it's very challenging to like work past that. And again, that's why this the podcast started. It's you know, it's that avoidant piece, like uh it just blows my mind.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

Yeah. And sometimes you wonder where that's coming from, that that that that avoidance, yeah, that lack of uh emotional attachment. And you know, and I think sometimes, and again, you know, again, I can only base this on you know my own experiences over the years and the folks that I've worked with as well, you know, there's there seems to be a connection to people's upbringings and what they've learned from maybe their parents as part of their upbringing, or how their parents interacted with them, because it what's it becomes what you know.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

And you bring it into adulthood.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

And I think that you try to help support people and help them maybe to become a better listener, a better communicator, um, and that's a skill, right? But but sometimes maybe, maybe based on what they know and what they're comfortable with and the fear of change, um, some people are not willing to to do that, yeah, to make that improvement. Again, I just base that on what I know and and the folks that I've interacted with over the years.

SPEAKER_03 41:39

Yeah, no, that makes sense. Thank you so much, Jim, for joining us. I think Donna and I have learned a lot today and uh are taking a more thoughtful approach uh when we decide to re-enter dating. That'll be TBD for the both of us, I say. Never say never, Donna. Um But uh yeah, we we really appreciate your uh your wisdom and your candor. And thank you so much for joining us in the shed today.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Great, thanks so much. Had a wonderful time. Thank you both.

SPEAKER_03 42:14

This has been She Shed Unfiltered, where midlife isn't polished, it's real. From divorce and career pivots to perimenopause and everything no one warns us about. These are the honest conversations we've lived, survived, and shared with you today. Until next time, stay brave, be curious, and keep it unfiltered.