What actually stands between you and profitability - conversation with Dr. David Bonanno

Jesper hosts the TraderDane podcast, this time with guest Dr. David Bonanno, a clinical psychologist and author of The Consistently Calm Trader (see link below), who has worked in the mental health field since 1993 and served over 17,000 clients. Dr. Bonanno explains how adrenaline activates fight-or-flight, taking the logical brain “offline,” leading to execution problems like FOMO, impulse entries, hesitation, and especially revenge trading. He describes a “robocat” model of two brain systems (logical vs. emotional/instinctive) and argues willpower and rule-making often fail when emotions take over. Drawing from PTSD work, he introduces eye-movement exercises (based on EMDR/REM-like processing) to reduce emotional intensity, separate sadness from anger after losses, and build acceptance to reset faster. We discuss optimal arousal levels, mindset leakage, limits of journaling alone, prop-firm pressure, and coaching as performance support, and share where to find Bonanno via his book, YouTube exercises, and website.

If you're interested, you can find Dr Bonanno's 1 on 1 coaching program here http://www.maxdiscipline.com/ or by visiting https://maxdiscipline.com/1on1 to engage.

Use my code DANE50 for exclusive discounts on the Max Discipline program!

You can find Dr Bonanno's book "The Consistently Calm Trader" here https://www.amazon.com/Consistently-Calm-Trader-Between-Discipline-ebook/dp/B0GCW6HV8D

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Before we get started, I want to just say that anything you hear me or any of the guests on this podcast say is to be considered for educational and entertainment purposes only. I am not a financial advisor. You should do your own research before taking financial decisions. And with that, please enjoy the podcast. Okay, everyone, welcome to the podcast, the Trader Dame Podcast. Today we're joined by Dr. David Bernardo. Dr. Bernardo is a clinical psychologist. He helps traders solve the real execution problem. Discipline collapses under adrenaline, things like FOMO, revenge trading, impulse entries, hesitations, you name it. He's also the author of the book, The Consistently Calm Trader, and has served more than 17,000 clients over his 30-plus year career.

unknown 0:58

Dr.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Bonardo doesn't teach charts, he teaches the missing piece that makes strategy work, that is emotional regulation and execution under pressure. Welcome to the show, Dr. Dave. Hey, thanks, Jasper. Great to be here. Good to have you. Um let's let's dive right into it. So the Trader Dame podcast is really a chance to deep dive on some topics that are trading related. And I'm super keen on discussing uh trading psychology. I think that is the main determinant of success versus failure. It's not the mechanics, it's not the execution of trades, it's it's what's inside our heads. Uh, I'm sure you will agree. Um, could you start by introducing a little bit about yourself, how you got into advising traders as a psychologist? And then also maybe a few words on your book.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Oh, sure thing. Yeah. So my book is called uh The Consistently Calm Trader Winning the War Between Uh Impulse and Discipline. And you know, like I think that adrenaline is what is the enemy of every trader because it's kind of related to PTSD in that when you have your fight or flight system activated, which is your adrenaline, of course, your logical brain is supposed to go offline. So, you know, like let's say if you're in a dangerous situation, you're not really supposed to be thinking and weighing all your options and going through a list of the pros and cons. You're supposed to be acting or reacting. So I have been in the mental health field since 1993, and I was uh specializing in um people with trauma and PTSD. And I found that's how I really kind of figured a lot of stuff out. I I think the books um can sort of touch upon what's happening there, but with PTSD, you just have too much adrenaline and then it it spikes up really quickly, and then you know, that's where anger management comes involved because your your inhibitions go offline, and if you're have how all this adrenaline, then your people can see red or you know, like blind rage and stuff like that. But what I say is that for traders, even if you have a little bit of adrenaline going, then that can make you uh operate less logically. So, I mean, of course, you have to have a certain amount of um activation for your nervous system because you have to care, you know, in order to do a good job. But if you put too much pressure on yourself, or if it's tough to um, you know, handle a loss and you get angry, uh, there's a whole bunch of uh emotions that you all face, as you know. And I I believe that that is where people get into trouble.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Right. That that sounds super logical. And and it's so can you tell a little bit more about the difference between because PTSD is kind of it's a long-term stage of of suffering or mental illness versus the the the experience of going through a day trade, let's say an intraday trade of of 30 minutes. What is the differences? What are the similarities between those two situations?

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Yeah, sure. Well, of course, they're different uh situations, and the reason I brought up PTSD is because that's how I was able to figure out what was going on in the human brain. Like I've I've seen over, like you said, over 17,000 people, including traders. And so, excuse me, when you're trading, you can't just be a robot, like you can't just turn off your emotions as much as people would like to think that they can. And you know, like if you're starting out and you're trading with a prop firm, for example, or if it's you know, you're trading simulated, then it's not the same thing as when you actually have real money on the line. And then, of course, um, if you if you get angry or if you get feel guilty or or frustrated or all kinds of emotions, that that is emotional noise that takes you out of the uh situation, at least even to some extent. I'm not saying, like, you know, trainers at home might be thinking, like, no, I don't I'm not going crazy when I have a loss. But if you're unable to move past it, then it's gonna stay with you and you're going to be reacting in a different way. Like it's kind of like with professional sports. Um, they can practice every day all year, but then when you get into the game, it's different, and you have to be reacting or reacting as an athlete. And I think it's the same thing as um a trainer. You know, we have um, I wrote another book uh explaining how the mind works. It's called Your Brain is a Robocat. And what I mean by that is like we have two brain systems that are in operation at all times. So there's our logical brain, which is your, of course, analyst analytics, and it's responsible for your speech, and it's responsible for your willpower and your inhibitions. And then you have your cat brain. And the reason I call it it a cat is because it doesn't always do what you want, just like a cat. And so it it and the thing about your cat brain is it's your emotions, it's your fight or flight, it's your intuition, which you do need to be a trader, but when it takes over, it can make the robot go offline, and there's no amount of willpower that can override that. So, you know, like you might have you might hear from um like somebody who's given advice and say, like, well, you just have to let it go, you just have to um stay disciplined, you have to make rules to follow your rules. I think those things can work sometimes, but definitely not when the problem is serious. And so what really needs to happen is people need to rewire their nervous system in order to not have that problem in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Yeah, yeah, you you hear that, I hear that all the time from traders, even experienced traders with years of experience, they will still go on tilt, like they will still lose control, and and it's almost like they and I've tried it as well. It's it's almost like you become a different person, right? And you don't recognize your train of thought and your actions afterwards. It's it's like something else took over. Is that what you're saying? That's that that's the cat brain taking over.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Yeah, totally. Yes, but I mean, like for anybody who's really lost their temper, you you're like, I'm just thinking about an argument I got into with a friend where he wanted to keep it going. And then I was like, you know, I really shouldn't say these things, and and it's just like when you're trading, you know, like you you know you shouldn't click, yeah, but then to get out of that um unpleasant state, you're gonna end up clicking. And then I just finally told this guy, like, I went off on him and I wasn't really uh there in a way, I wasn't really conscious. Like, if people can sort of understand what I'm saying, like it's I wasn't in full control. And right when it comes to anger management, for example, it's not what do you do once you lose control, it's how to recognize you're getting there and then to do something to prevent that. I think that's a critical skill for traders as well, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:15

So that's kind of like the um the metaphor would be the seatbelt, right? When things go off the rails, you have something that you can pull yourself back to. Is there also a way to prime yourself? You mentioned I like recognizing that you're going off on a path like this. Is there a way to prime your brain and practice? Because, like you said, it's also like an athlete practicing, it's still different when you're in a game, when you're in a tournament. Is there a way to prime your brain in practice to actually be more mentally present and more in control when you're when when the pressure is on?

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Right. Yeah, that's a great, great question. And and while I do um offer uh, like I have this protocol that people can use in in real time when they're going on tilt that can help bring them back. But what I really do is try to um we rewire people's nervous system so that before they ever get into that, should I click or shouldn't I click, they're they're regulating their emotions already. So we're we're not um winning the battle, we're preventing the battle in the first place. Right. And I I work in a different way than other coaches because other coaches they try to get you to have like an insight, like an aha moment, and they try to um help you to think differently, change your thoughts. Like, for example, you could like they'll might tell you to keep repeating, I need to follow my rules, I need to follow my rules. Well, yeah, sure, no shit. But when it actually when you feel that aha moment and when it really resonates with you, then you're that's what's really gonna stick. So I my my method uses eye movements where and all we can do an exercise to show the audience, but yeah, that started from a PTSD therapy, and the problem with that is nobody uses it outside of PTSD. So I found a way for traders to be able to just really kind of divest their emotions from what's going on in a healthy way and in a way that's really thorough and addresses the problem at the root.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

And it starts with eye movement exercises, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

So um, when you're moving your eyes back and forth, you're kind of replicating rapid eye movement, and um that is your subconscious brain, of course. Like when you're dreaming, it's your it's not conscious, and um it's really kind of like hypnosis, but there's no trance. The people are alert and awake the whole time, yeah. And you just can have these real breakthroughs. Like, I wish it was more well known. Um, it is like EMDR, if you guys want to look that up. That's the most heavily used and researched therapy in history for trauma. But um, like I'm saying, like I'm the first guy to take it to trading psychology, and uh that's where that comes in.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

So you so you address the subconscious by doing this by by simulating uh REM sleep, because REM sleep is like this, it's the state between deep sleep and and awake, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Um, yeah, and you know, like there the science is really not um exactly able to identify or explain what's going on there. Um, because we're trying to use logical conscious terms to uh describe like subconscious phenomena. So, I mean, we all know that meditation and mindfulness are good ideas, but science can't say what that is, and they can't even really describe uh explain what dreaming is or hypnosis or any of these other subconscious phenomena. So um it can it can be hard for people to understand and unless they try it. And it's kind of difficult for me as a coach, I have to admit, because I know that I can really help people on a very deep level, but they don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

You have to try it, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Yeah, yeah. If that's okay, how about if we uh jump in and of course, yeah, yeah. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Let's do a test.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Okay, awesome.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

So if if if uh if you're watching this on YouTube, you should be you should uh you should try and do the test with us. If you're just listening to this, uh maybe you want to jump on YouTube.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Right. Um, so now it's important. Um, can you see that, Jesper? Um just one second. Yes, now I can see it. Yeah, okay, great. So so yes, um, in order to do this exercise, you have to have your head close enough to the screen and your so that your eyes will move back and forth. If you're on a phone, you might have to hold it up to your face. But what I'd like people to do first is without eye movements, to try to remember the worst trade or the worst loss um that you've ever had, maybe even the first one or the most recent one, but really try to get in touch with that. So so I'd like people to close their eyes and try to feel it in their body. So for like five seconds. Here we go. Okay, very good. And now I'd like for the people to continue to have their eyes closed and for them to recall and relive the best win that they ever had. So here we go. All right. Now I wonder if you guys at home, before we move our eyes, I wonder if you guys can tell what's in common for both of those um feelings. I don't know if you uh it's kind of a different difficult question, but yeah, you it what do you think, Jesper?

SPEAKER_01 14:04

For me, it was, I mean, it it does trigger the same emotional response in the sense, I mean, a slightly heightened heart rate, uh, some some some um some level of emotion, um, like in my head, but also in my sort of diaphragm area.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Yeah, right. Yeah, absolutely. And that's what I wanted to kind of show people is that adrenaline isn't just when you're upset, it's also like when you're really excited or you get kind of like on a high, you know. And of course, there's all kinds of people out there who trade in order to get that high. And you know who you are out there. Um, you're trading to feel something instead of trading to make money. But even when so when you're excited or when you're trying to get that um that fix for for your uh addiction, then you're also um, I think not operating at 100% analytically. Your logical brain is compromised to some extent. So, what I'd like for you guys to do now, please, is to watch the ball, make sure your head is close enough to the screen and that you are not um here. You know what? I'm gonna slow down the speed just a little bit. And so, yeah, try not to move your head back and forth, and then here we go, follow the ball and just breathe. Oops, okay, very good. And I I wonder um how many of you out there felt like it was kind of uh relaxing because that's kind of what's happening. We're connecting the two sides of the brain, the right side and the left side, uh, which you know is one of his analytical and one of your instincts. And so now what I'd like for you guys to do, this this exercise is gonna help people to help to um handle losses. I I think that's maybe the most critical skill for any trainer is to be able to um really, you know, just move on from it. So we need to kind of recreate what happens uh during a loss. So once again, please try to recall and relive the worst or loss or whatever stands out for you the most as you watch the ball. All right, very good. Everybody, everybody's still there. How are you doing, Jesper? Jesper. Still here, he's still here. All right, very good. Now I want you guys to separate the sadness from everything else. So if you feel guilty or disappointed or angry or or resentful or any host of emotions, including excitement, I want you to look inside your heart as you watch the ball and separate all that stuff from just the sadness. I mean, because you know it really sucks that you have this loss. It's it's sad. So I'd I'd like for you to separate those two things and feel the sadness, please. We're almost done. This is this is extremely short exercise, and of course, but if yeah, if people work with me, then um it we'll we'll be really thorough. But um, what I'd like for you to do now is to uh uh hopefully you know you're you're not feeling it so intensely with the uh with the anger and stuff like that. But imagine if you were able to be sad about a loss, would you be able to move on from it? Would you be able to accept reality and then move on with a clean slate as opposed to being angry and and carrying that with you? So just think about those two um alternatives, please. I'd like for people to imagine if they did have the ability to accept reality, and even though it sucks, and you can still feel sad, but if you could feel sad for for just a little bit and then move on to the next trade, how would that help your training? How would that help you? And how would that help anybody else you care about? So please um think about those things right now. All right. So how was that for you, Jesper?

SPEAKER_01 19:44

It's I I feel like that words when you when you explained it afterwards, that was exactly what I was going through. So when you said relaxed after the first little go there, relaxation was exactly what I was feeling. And so and you didn't prime me in any way, right? So it's it's it's it's kind of guiding me through my own emotions uh after after it after the fact. So that that's really insightful. And then what I also think is that when when when you start splitting it up between being sad versus being angry, it's about acceptance. And I mean, if if acceptance, and that's actually a question for you, if acceptance is what it if you can encapsulate that and accept what happened, then you can also much easier move on. Um, correct? Because anger is really the the result of not accepting reality, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Absolutely 100%. I I learned this from a friend of mine who was Buddhist, and and yeah, like it's pain, as you guys know, pain is uh pain times pain times resistance is suffering, and so you know something bad happened. Do you want to continue to suffer? Or you know, if you keep um saying, Well, anger is like I shouldn't have done this, the market shouldn't have done this, I should have done this. Well, it feels a little better than being sad because you have some power. If if you're considering what didn't happen, then you have power in that fantasy of yours. If you want to be back in the real world and accept what happened, that's what how you can move on. And so, what I preach to people is to actually practice feeling sad, yeah. So, with anything in your life, but if you could be sad, it's not gonna last forever. You you just like wow, that I just lost a lot of money. That really sucks. I'm gonna feel sad um for maybe 10 minutes, and then I'm gonna get up and do something else. And and so if you can if you can actively be sad, you can accept reality, and then the next time you trade, you're gonna come, you're gonna come at it with much less adrenaline.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Right. With a clear mind. And I think it's um personally, I would say that get getting to the next day. I mean, when you're in it and you've taken a big loss. you think oh my god this is gonna affect the rest of my month i'm i'm i'm a failure it's it's it's it's all bad but really the next day at 9 30 when the markets are opening again i mean depending on the size of the loss you're pretty much you're pretty much uh uh clean slate and and and ready to go again that's often how it is um but but i would also say sadness if you can put a few more words that sadness isn't necessarily about forgetting what happened is it no not at all no so you're not you're not sort of putting it in a drawer and like uh denying the fact that it happened it's actually it's it's much more than that right right it's accepting that it did happen yeah it's kind of the opposite of denial living with it yeah I don't know how it is um in Denmark but here in the United States I think people are not good at feeling sad I I think we're we're kind of um believe that we should be happy all the time and living our best life and uh posting it on Instagram um but no you you I think it's really important for everybody to just calm down every once in a while and grieve just like you're grieving a lost loved one right again this is an opportunity that you lost yeah and and we actually I think in Denmark at least we have um I think they've recently introduced uh a grievance leave like you get some time off from work after you've lost a relative um that that's a really powerful thing and I think that's that's super necessary and also for for mental well-being and and and everything it's difficult to just go right back in uh into your job if you've lost a close relative um so so that is really that right I don't know how that works in the US but but that's embracing the fact that sadness needs sadness needs attention and it needs time um but then again if you take your average day trader uh let's say uh 20 to 25 year old not a lot not a lot of experience certainly not with sadness probably um what do you do you engage with people like that because a lot of day traders will be in their 20s and and and 30s maybe um they they must have a a a mindset that is very distant from that kind of acceptance of sadness acceptance of all even being that kind of emotionally aware how do you bridge that gap i you probably also see it in in in um in older folks as well but it's it's just how do you how do you bridge that gap of becoming emotionally aware um yeah great great question um you know I I don't seem to work with as many I I definitely do talk to young influencers and stuff like that and young traders when I can I don't seem to have too many of them as clients because like you're saying I I think sometimes they're not as emotionally aware I think oftentimes they are trying they're obsessed with having improving their system superheroes yeah yeah yeah nice and yeah they're thinking that it's their strategy um whereas older older people might have a little more wisdom and they're able to like admit their faults and and see what's going on there.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

So I mean like yeah with you with young guys I just try to help them to be aware really like you know what what is going on when you're experiencing um you know a tilt or or when you're just like kind of trading uh not very consciously but you're just kind of like you know push clicking buttons and um so yeah I mean I guess that's not a great answer to your question but um I I seem to work better with people who are really serious uh about trading and have um money to invest in themselves and are able to admit mistakes and the understanding like I said in the in the beginning like the understanding that it is emotions that are driving your results it's not the mechanics absolutely yeah some some young people are definitely mature enough to see that but I think yeah a lot of people are and like you said a lot of older people really are not either they don't want to right admit faults and then of course you know if you go online everybody's posting their wins yeah and and you know not like and older people will will also be more set in their ways right it's it's difficult to change uh that much is I have a sort of a contrarian question is there a place in trading for emotions like like adrenaline like you can see my my guitars in the back here right I'm I'm a I I've been a musician for many years I will also always go on stage with some level of adrenaline because it's it's it's the good adrenaline it's like when you take an exam um it it makes you perform just that little bit better right um is there a place in trading for that kind of positive adrenaline or should you you should you aim to sort of eliminate it and and and diminish it as much as possible awesome question I I think if you were to graph it on a chart and I know you guys all love charts um if if you have too little adrenaline then you're not going to be using your resources as well as you can you won't have enough enough energy you won't have enough focus so yes you do have to have a certain amount of adrenaline to function. And then if you see it on the graph like the more you add the the performance will go down because like I was saying it's going to cloud your performance and so when you're on stage then um of course you need to have that good adrenaline but I think what else is kind of happening is your training is taking over. So like I I talked to a military veteran one time in a combat veteran and I was saying man I could never do that I couldn't fight in a battle and he said yeah you could because you would go through training and they just drill like they make you do the same things like a thousand times. With training you can't really do that. You might be able to like um instill certain habits in yourself to some degree but um unfortunately like you can't you know you can't memorize what to do the way that you can when you're playing a song does that make sense and yeah absolutely and also compared to a uh a special forces soldier or whatever who will have a sergeant and superiors and so on a day trader will have himself and himself only right so you need to be your own kind of drill sarge uh which which obviously is difficult right um yeah and and I mean like yeah when you're working with other people they can see a lot of times they can see how you're doing better than you can see how you're doing yeah I'm not talking about performance I'm talking about your emotional state you know some once in a while like somebody might be able to tell you hey you gotta you gotta dial it back you got to calm down a little bit whereas when you're training by yourself and you're alone um you you can you you might not be aware of what's happening and you know there's yeah there's there's something I call mindset leakage which is like all the stuff that you're not even aware that you're doing and it's subconscious. So I mean like you might be hesitating a little bit too long or you might be staying in too long or whatever. And you're you're it seems like it makes sense to you and you you can justify your actions but how much are you really losing because you don't have the the mindset that you know you could have and then you know when it comes to journaling well you're still not going to be aware of what you could have done better. Because and I'm you know like you can you can be aware of what the market did but in terms of you making your decision based on the circumstances of the time you're not aware of it. It's subconscious and the definition of subconscious is that it's not conscious. So when you're asking yourself well what am I not conscious of you're you're not gonna get an answer so they're difficult to get an answer.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

That's actually I've I've I don't know if you've read that one but I've read the um it's called the uh mental game of trading uh it's a book by Jared Tendler and it's oh yeah yeah all all of the pretty much all of the it's a great book but but all of the advice in there is to write down your emotions and things like that when as as you're going through it. So when you're in a trade things going against you all of that he always turns to write it down make sure you record it and and then that should that that can then let you reflect on it afterwards I'm I see where it's coming from but it's it it just doesn't work for me. I think something that would work better for me was actually having and I'm gonna be live streaming uh my trading soon is having a recording of what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

I've done that a few times just for myself and when I see these recordings it it's just so clear that I'm overmanaging things like I'm I'm constantly doing stuff to my trade um and and and it's it's seeing that rather than you know taking my physical journal and looking up okay what did I do good and bad yesterday that doesn't work the same way for me and you know of course I agree with uh Jared Tedler that you should be in touch with your emotions as much as you can you should journal but you know what yeah it's limited because you're because your emotions are not the same as your logical brain like how many times have you heard people say like there's no words for how I feel or you know like I'm I I can't you know like or how or having someone say say to you you shouldn't be doing this right but but that doesn't work it doesn't click it it it you're not in my situation it doesn't work like that. So yeah thanks for bringing that up because that's exactly where I feel like I come in you know people could give you good advice great advice and you and you still can't follow it and then you feel worse about yourself. Yeah I with the eye movements I bridge the gap between knowing what you should do and actually being able to do it. And so I recommend that when you're journaling you should use eye movements. Like so you should recreate what was going on because you're speaking the same language as the subconscious as you're moving your eyes. If you don't if you do what Jared Tendler says which is you know not bad but you're you're translating your subconscious phenomena into a conscious language and then you got to translate it back as you're writing it down you're gonna lose a lot in translation there. So I I think like I have this um chat GPT coach that I built that I I let my clients use and there's a journaling protocol for that people really love it. Yeah yeah it can be great for that stuff and I think there's also one of the merits of of actually recording it physically is is you know it it it just sticks better in your mind right when you when you when you've the tactile exercise of of of writing stuff down that's that's what works for me but it doesn't necessarily change my behavior the next time I'm going through something something similar right um I want to I want to ask a little bit of a different question now uh we're getting towards the end it's been a great conversation but um I mentioned in the beginning in your introduction that that things holding traders back are things like like FOMO like impulse entries uh revenge trading personally I have I have recognized that I have a lot of problems with taking a loss I will often I've set up a rule for myself that I cannot enter a trade five minutes after losing one so I cannot just re-enter and it's a rule and I have to enforce it on myself um so I'm working on that but what is the biggest what is the biggest hurdle that you see or the biggest uh mistake you see people make and what what most traders that you work with uh are are actively working on themselves out of these things yeah I would say it's revenge trading yeah and because you know the especially you know when you're down and you just want to get back uh you know unfortunately I I think prop firms are great but they have you um chase these arbitrary numbers and ideally you know you should just be trading whatever makes sense but if you're trying to get to a certain place or if you're trying to get back to zero you're gonna be putting more pressure on yourself which is adrenaline and of course you're probably gonna be angry and yes that's a really good rule to not trade um before five minutes after you have a loss but as you probably know people don't follow their rules exactly yeah so I mean I've talked to so many people they're like I got my rules right here I even got rules I will post it on my screen yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I got rules to help me follow my rules and then when you're pissed or or when you're talking yourself into um you know clicking then it's it's all out the window it's your fight or flight brain that takes over you're so fucking pissed off I just want to get back to zero why doesn't the market do this for me and then another thing is like in other areas of life if you work harder you're more likely to have success but with trading if you work too hard you're gonna screw yourself yeah it's actually the reverse right you do too much you actually hurt yourself. Yeah how does that work then do you do you also engage with people it with other aspects of their lives like trying to improve themselves because a pro athlete will have pretty much everything in their life revolve around performance and and that particularly sport particular sport is that also something that you work with traders to do to like I'm going to the gym I keep my discipline up I um actually also being on social media requires discipline right so so so all of that implementation of discipline into your everyday life is that something you also work with people to do yes it is so I um I do have a fair amount of clients who are doing very very well and they need a coach they want a coach like I have this guy who has a I he's like I pay a golf coach I'm a great golfer but I need that guy to keep me right with you know sharp and there's there's nothing wrong with having that for trading you don't have to be screwed up or having problems in order to call the doctor I mean like I I help I'm a performance coach so um when it does if when it does come into other parts of your life that are affecting uh your trading I I do sometimes deal with that I mean it's I don't want to be a therapist I you know I refer people to therapy I and I I if it's a trauma for example I can clear it up very quickly with the eye movements or if somebody's just stuck on something I'm really good at that but if it turns out like oh you have mother issues or a lot of traders have that male traders have father issues. Oh really yeah um so that that can be a little sticky but if somebody does choose to work with me um they get unlimited access to me for eight weeks and we we just do we we get you into top shape I mean if there's any type of roadblocks we're gonna address those but we're also strengthening your ability to stay uh focused and calm when the pressure is on so yeah like that's that's a really good question um but but yeah when people work with me like I I make sure no matter what that they get what they need and then if they don't I don't want their money. Yeah of course and it it is really about I mean if you're a serious trader you want to in engage with a coach like yourself to to up your game I know I I have a couple of uh CEO uh contacts in my network who also have personal coaches and and it doesn't matter if you're a CEO or not it's just if if if you want to stay on top of your game you can also be a super profitable trader and still have a coach because because like you say to keep yourself sharp to keep your engaged and make sure you're not um you're not falling off or or or or underperforming like that right so so I I suppose you also work with like longer term with with with experienced traders yeah oh sure yep yeah after after they become a client of mine then yeah I never want that relationship to end unless they do but you know like when I was working with people with trauma they were not able to put a value on the work that we were doing together and they just wanted to keep using their insurance and so I figured that with with traders like you know somebody could tell me they lost$15,000 yesterday and so and if my fee is$10,000 it should be you know should be no no brainer like how much more money are you going to make exponentially over the course of your career if you work with me and yet I I still run into people who make decisions emotionally like you know like my whole um philosophy on my book and everything it's all about controlling your emotions and yet when it comes to spending money like investing in yourself people are still only emotions super emotional. Like yeah how many interviews have you heard where people say like how did you make your money how did you make your financial dreams come true do they say well I saved money on mentorship you know no you gotta spend money to make money and it's it's like I just wrote it in my book like like you know if you're still if you're still making decisions about like investing in yourself that doesn't make sense you just read this whole book and agreed that you gotta be logical.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

So yeah it's kind of some of the best some of the best traders I know treat all of those things as a business expense it's it's a little bit like your losses in trade trading right it's it's tuition it's it's it's a business expense you treat your trading like a business it's much more likely to to come into fruition to to be successful like that right that's a really great point.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

Yeah yeah awesome um so dr dave uh we have to wrap it up here it's been a great conversation just um tell people where they can find you uh and also um uh how to find you right yeah thanks so um if you were to look up my book it's on Amazon and it's called the consistently calm trader uh how to master the war between impulse and discipline uh you could you can really get to know me that way or you can also go to my YouTube channel and and I'm sure there'll be a link there right uh yes for absolutely yeah yeah so so YouTube is a is a really good way to um see more of what I'm about but also for you to do free exercises and if those really work for you then I mean that's that's just a really great way to go it's it's it's so much better than everybody I mean trying to change your thoughts and all that stuff. So yeah YouTube and my book would be a great way to go and then of course you can go to my website uh which there's links on my YouTube and and yes will have those too and uh I'd love to talk with you I I love talking with uh all kinds of traders it's it's really cool it's it's it's more fun than PTSD you know you you can really tell you can really tell I mean it's been a great conversation um I think it's it's it's inspiring um and yes I will put everything uh everything in terms of getting getting in touch with you in the show notes of the program here um so it's gonna be easy for people to find um and I what just want to say I I really appreciate you coming on uh it's been a great pleasure oh yeah thank you yeah thank you yes bro it was fun