TraderDane Team Huddle!

This week I've got Griffin and Mike, the home team, in the pod seats! They discuss the challenge of creating transparent trading content while still working toward consistency. If you're a trader on that  “in-between” journey between starting out and becoming consistently profitable, this episode is relatable, fun, and will add accountability. We discuss our core setups, from simple New York VWAP bounce and break entries, to more in-depth, higher-timeframe-driven VWAP approaches using order flow tools and Mike's custom ChartSmith indicators to speed decisions across multiple indices (ES, NQ, YM, RTY). We cover switching markets to avoid forcing mediocre trades, current mental struggles around payouts and sizing, and prop firm approaches (instant funded vs evals, consistency rules, etc). If all this sounds interesting, join us every morning from 9.30 am EST on TraderDane YT, link below, and we will throw a massive prop account giveaway this Tuesday, August 18, giving out five TopOne Futures accounts. Tune in!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:11

Trader Dane here with an important message. Everything you hear me or my guests say on this podcast is to be considered for educational and entertainment purposes only. It is not financial advice. You should do your own research before making financial decisions, just like in any other part of life. So with that, let's get started with the podcast. All right. Welcome to the Trader Dane podcast, episode two of season two. And this is really, really special because I have got my home team with me. Um, to those who don't know, this is Griffin right here, and Mike right here. And Griffin and Mike and I, we basically live stream on the Trader Dane YouTube channel every single day for New York session. And I think, to be honest, guys, I think you are more consistent than I am, isn't that right? Yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, without a doubt. We have plenty more days on there than blog. You're holding it down. Yeah, it's been a little bit difficult over summer here with me traveling and all that stuff. So it's yeah, I really enjoy the stream, huh?

SPEAKER_01 1:09

A lot of holidays out there in Europe.

SPEAKER_03 1:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is is holidays hitting the US now, or is it uh is it also over? What holidays? I don't know what holidays. Okay, I got it July 4th. I gotcha. We're recording right now, it's it's like 8 p.m. uh European time. That's why I have a beer with me. Um, you guys, what's that? That must be 2 p.m. almost 1 30, something like that. 1 35.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

I got the diet DP going on.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

Awesome. Okay, guys. Um, let's dive into it. So I I just want to say, so Griffin, you were on in season one. So if you haven't met Griffin before, go back and check season one. Um, yeah, I think you were actually the the second person I ever had on the podcast, so that's really awesome. But maybe Mike, if you can just briefly introduce yourself to the audience.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Sure. Uh my name is Michael. Uh I've been trading for about since right before COVID. Um, various different types of trading. You know, started off. Obviously, I've been investing for a long time. Um, I've been trading, you know, stocks, options for a couple of years. I've been on futures for about three years now. Um, had different levels of profitability or break-even or not profitable. Um, uh I'm in a middle stage right now. I have, you know, what's it called? Uh streaks of profitability and then streaks of red. Um, but we'll, you know, making our way to being consistent. Right.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

Grinding it out. Yeah. And maybe just cool. And then maybe just one or two sentences, Griffin, on you.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Okay. Uh brief introduction. I'm Griffin. I'm the I'm the young guy in the crew. Um, I uh been trading futures for about a year and a half, just uh making my way to generational wealth. So we're we're on the way, we're on the slope right now.

SPEAKER_03 3:03

So yes, and and and you say you're the young guy, but you've probably you've been trading longer than me. So as it comes to futures day trading, I've actually I'm I'm the least experienced. I'm the young trader. Let's let's as we call as we say. That's right, that's right. So, guys, something um introductions aside, something because we know each other and we trade every day together. Um, something I want to to talk to you about is I had someone DM me on Instagram yesterday, another content creator slash day trader, who who has also uh been in some of the same communities that we have uh in the past. And he was super frustrated because uh he didn't he, you know, yesterday was a shit day, right? Everyone, I think everyone across the social media space and day trading agreed that uh August 12th was the worst price action in a long time. Um, so so but he was frustrated. He yeah, he sent me a voice message basically saying um uh he couldn't really see himself keeping up the um the the content creation because it it it was difficult being a new trader, doing all this stuff at the same time as as then showing it and being transparent and all that. So that's the same thing we're we're trying because we are not there yet, right? We're not six, seven, eight-figure traders. Um so my question to you guys is are we retarded? And and let me just be let me just elaborate a little bit on that because we're trying to fill the space between you know, there's a category of traders that never really make it. They try it out for a month or two, maybe they create some content, you never see them again. And then there's another category of traders uh who have made it years ago, who've been trading, you know, in their in an office for years, and then after they've made it, they go on social media and tell about their strategy and all that kind of stuff. But are we retarded in the sense that we we were trying to show that super, super difficult journey that it is to start trading and then become profitable being fully transparent?

SPEAKER_00 5:06

I would say I would say I'm half retarded and um it's got nothing to do with the trading thing, but um I think uh I think it's tough, but I I feel like I feel like the some of the reasons why why I'm doing the content thing right now are first of all, it makes my trading fun. You know, I love talking to you guys, I love talking to the chat, um, and just being live. I feel like I have a great time versus versus being bored in the morning, you know what I mean? Looking at looking at an empty chart, waiting for it to do something, waiting for it to move. Sometimes that's not very fun. So so that is part of it. And then also I feel like when I was was getting into trading, there was nobody doing content like this, like we're doing. If it kind of had felt like everyone already made it, and I'm just lacking, like lagging behind. You know what I mean? Every everyone that I saw out there had already made it, was getting the big payouts, the six figures, and and I'm the guy who's just just trailing and and couldn't figure it out. So I feel like it's it's probably good for for an audience to see content like the content that we make.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Yeah, I I a hundred percent agree with everything Griffin was saying. Like, regardless if nobody watches the stream, like I enjoy it as well. You know, like it's much more fun than trading alone, which you know, trading could be a very lonely thing. Um, so it's more fun to do it with you know, people that you enjoy, you know, like talking with and bantering with. It also keeps you a little bit more accountable because, like, you know, if I'm doing something stupid, you y'all have called me out. Like, don't like even today, like don't tilt, just keep your keep your day green, which you know, thankfully I did. Um, I listened to y'all for for the most part. I did take that one extra trade, but uh, you know, uh gotta break even on it, so it was okay. Um, but also like it's relatable content, you know, like uh you can watch all these other gurus and furus, and they're all mixed together. Some of them are great, you know, some of them are you know toxic. But um, you know, our content that we're creating on the stream is just like we're honest, like we're not six-figure traders, you know, we're not even five-figure traders, you know, at least not consistently. Um, so like people can relate to the stuff that we're going through, the things that we're talking about. And we're figuring it out as we go and helping others hopefully figure it out too.

SPEAKER_03 7:25

And and I fully agree. And don't you also think you said it as well, Griffin, when you started that that that wasn't really available. So, so yes, you can find education, you can both good and bad. You can find um uh quick, uh like flashy PLs on YouTube. You can find all of that, but you can't really find those who are consistently learning it and then becoming profitable. You can't find that journey. It's just it's like a black box, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Agreed, yeah. And it's it's like you want like you want something relatable, at least a little bit of it. You know what I mean? Something that you can be like, oh, this guy, he's putting himself out there and and he lost today too. And and he he had a red month, you know, like versus what you really see on social media is oh, this is how I made this is how I was green every day this month, this is how I made six figures this month. I feel like it's good to have a mix of seeing the the cool, the big side of it, the goal, and then also seeing like people who are in the same boat as you, and you're like, oh, look at this. This this helps me realize this is normal. You know, it's normal to have a red week or a red month. It happens.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Yeah, it makes you feel less bad about like your mistakes, you know, like because there are many mistakes to be made as a trader, and like even me, three years in, I still make mistakes every day. You know, like I could have managed something better, I could have entered better, I could have not taken that trade that I wasn't supposed to, or I maybe I should have taken the trade that I didn't trade. Like uh, you know, that there's so many mistakes that you can make, and you don't realize that like everyone's making those mistakes, it's not just you. So seeing that live, you know, I imagine would be helpful to people.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Yeah, yeah. And I think we get that feedback also from the chat, right? The the few people that do check in, the the loyal chat that we have, it resonates with them, and they're kind of at the same level as us, right? So so they're taking some of the same trades, not taking signals, but but just being in there with us, yeah. So so what do you guys feel about trading and streaming? Like I've heard people say, I've also tried, you know, bring other people on as guests and so on, and a lot of people will will turn that down because it's it's too much of a distraction. How have you find that starting upstream and and and being on there while being locked in and starting to trade? I uh oh, you can go ahead, Mike.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Yeah, uh for me it's been a little bit of a roller coaster because I would say like the first two weeks, I was like extra cautious because like I didn't want to make a mistake in front of other people. And then at some point it flipped. Then you realize there were no other people. Oh sorry. Maybe, but also then at some point it flipped to like, oh well, now we're not taking any trades. Now I feel a little bit more pressure to take a trade just for like yeah, the the entertainment value. And I think like now in August, you know, like after we've been doing this for almost two and a half months now, ish, take or give or take a month, like I feel like I'm more natural in front of the stream. Um, you know, there are times where I'm like a little bit more quiet because I'm a bit more focused on a trade, maybe probably because I'm over leveraged on it, but uh if uh in general, I feel a lot more comfortable having done it for a little bit of now.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

I feel like um it's a bit of a mixed bag. I think I I think I've gotten much better at it. Um, but it didn't throw me off in the same ways that I thought it would. I think uh I think there's a bit of uh a bright side to it or a good side that it it kind of like the accountability portion, you don't want to make stupid mistakes that you might make by yourself in front of people watching, right? So that that keeps you out of these dumb trades or revenge trades or anything like that. And then and then I guess like Mike said, there's the other side where you want to be entertaining too. Like you you don't want to have a day where everyone's flat. You're like all these people are they're here to watch us. Let's put a trade on. You know what I mean? Let's do something, let's let's try this out because stream's watching. But I think uh I think those were early thoughts, and I think at this point I'm able to just focus on on the trading and have the stream on the back end and and read the chat, the chat and have a good time. But like I think I can have have my full focus on the um the trading. So it hasn't caused me any issues at all.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

Right. I mean it's it's it's a little bit like having your your buddy next to you, right? We think out loud all the time, right? That's what we do when we spar with each other. We we we test ideas off of each other, you know. Um and and I guess also, Mike, you're very locked in sometimes, but that's all because also because you you scalp like a maniac sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Yeah, I sling some trades, you know, like yeah, yeah. My style is generally a lot faster than yours, where y'all are trying to hold for like 15 minutes to a half hour sometimes. I'm looking to be in and out in a few minutes. That's like my goal. And uh it's been working for me like the last few weeks. Uh if if for the people that's that have come to the stream, they've seen my success and my my new uh kind of balls to the wall strategy a little bit. But uh, you know, yeah, I'm also yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

I'll notice uh we'll be we'll be sitting there. I'll I'll see you know, Mike getting down and down and locked in, won't be saying much. I'll be like, you in a trade? Yep, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yep, I got along.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

Yeah, as long as soon as he's quiet, you know the stuff going on, right? Yeah, so that's awesome. Um, but I think that's also something that I'm transitioning a little bit, being a little bit more scalpy. I guess that's also August, August price action. We can talk a little bit about that as well. But um, but I think one of the qualities of our stream is also that we do different things, it's not just like sure, we're inspired by the same um coaches, the same, the same framework, but we do different things in different ways. You had a really good point the other day, Mike. Um sadly it was when I was off stream, but that happens. Um about how your brain works, right? You you you you'll trail your stop or you take a tight stop on on a trade because that is how your brain works. That really resonated with me because you need to find um you need to take that inspiration from whoever is coaching you, but then you need to tweak it to, like you say, like how your brain works, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Yeah, I mean, it's very rare that you can uh take someone else's system and trade it exactly the same way with the exact same success. I'm not saying that's not possible, but with any system that you take, you have to make it your own. You know, whenever you sign up for like any sort of mentorship, you take the framework and you adjust and tweak the framework to make it match your personality so that you can get the most out of it. And I feel like I've done that with like the frameworks that I've gotten.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Yeah, Mike does a great job. I feel like um you've taken like whoever four, three, four different mentors, and you're like, I'm gonna take the parts that I like from each, combine it and trade how I trade. And I we've all done a little bit of um taking what we've learned and kind of running with it to craft it to our personality types. I feel like I I've definitely done that, especially over the last few months. You know, um, I used to trade just kind of a copy of what I what I've learned, and now I just like have found things that I like better, you know. I over uh however many trades there will be something where I'm like, I don't like having my stop loss here, or or I don't like doing what I guess like my previous rules told me I need to try something new. So I've totally crafted it around around how I feel. I I have to give it to you as well, Griffin.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

Yeah, first of all, I think you're the king of keeping it simple and consistent. I mean, process-wise, you're really, really solid. Um, and also I I remember it's a few weeks back, but we had you you you really went back with your data and said, yeah, like you you took, I think you pulled it out of trade seller or something, right? Where you said the breaks are working, the the VWAP breaks, the bounces are not working. So that was like a really solid piece of you know data-driven decision. Um, then you kept taking a few bounce trades, but but that is what it is, right? But yeah, um but I think that's so so you you're also learning, but I think you do a really good job of you know sticking to your guns and and and keeping trading simple as it should be, right? Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

No one no one can ever tell you that your chart is too cluttered, you know, like uh the least cluttered chart I've ever seen. So yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Yeah, thanks, guys. I take pride in that. I like it.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

There's a position tool and there's your order lines, right? Your fields.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

It's it's so great.

SPEAKER_03 16:00

It's awesome. So um to talking a little bit about that, um how maybe we can dive a little bit just to spend a few minutes on how we actually trade. Um so so maybe we can start with you just keeping it simple, uh um, Griffin. Um, what what are you looking for when you want to take an entry?

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Sure. So I'm um I'm looking at pretty much there are two entry types that I take, and I take VWAP bounces and VWAP breaks, strictly off of the New York VWAP. Uh, I guess it just depends on on higher time frame context, really, um, if I if I'm looking for bounces or breaks. I'm looking to take bounces in more um trending conditions. Bounces I take uh with a sort of a tighter tighter stop and uh about you know like a like a one hour sort of trade, usually trading a bounce to um to previous highs. Um so let's say we create a high, pull back to VWAP, I'll take a bounce with a tight stop to the high. Um and then and then breaks, I'm usually looking for a bit more of a move, I feel. Um, usually taking breaks earlier in the session, but I like to take those in line with the higher time frame as well. So let's say we get a pullback to like overnight VWAP and we hold it, and then we come back and uh come back in line with the higher time frame as we break to the side of New York VWAP. I like to take that trade. That's my favorite trade. So yeah, pretty simple.

SPEAKER_03 17:26

And speaking of data, that's also what's been working right recently, or the last few months really.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 17:32

Yeah, nice. And and Mike, can you unfold your your system? Maybe just parts of it? Might be a bit much.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Yeah, it's there's a lot going on in my system, but like it could be simplified to a few lines, like it's not that much different than what Griffin does. What I do extra is that like I have a much more in-depth uh higher time frame analysis that I look at. Um, and I'm generally trying to only take trades with the the higher time frame trend. So even if I do get like a bounce in the wrong VWAP bounce off the wrong way, like I probably will be less inclined to take that uh if it goes against my higher time frame analysis. I am also I'm okay with taking a bounce or a break off of any VWAP, you know, whether it's the R the RTH, the New York, the overnight, the you know, the two-day, the weekly, the monthly, like they're all valid levels that you could bounce or break for me. Um, I would love for them all to be in confluence with each other, but they don't necessarily have to be. Um, but you know, I'm more of a you know a one-to-two risk to reward type of guy, you know, sometimes higher, sometimes a little lower. Um, but I'm also trying to be in and out quickly. You know, like my stop is generally smaller than yours, but I'm also looking for the quick move. I'm not looking to be just right on like the direction, I'm looking to be right on the timing too. So um, you know, I have tools to help me do that, like order flow tools, like the footprint. You know, I I used to use CVD a lot, less so much now, but things like that help me, you know, get a little bit more of a precise entry.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

And also you're using um the higher time frame bands as well, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Yeah, higher time frame brands that that helps fuel like I want to be long biased or short biased based on like where we are in relation to the VWAP and the bands and things like that.

SPEAKER_03 19:28

Is there anything, uh Mike, is there anything in your system where um because I know you program, you make you can make your own indicators and you can make your own sort of um setups and automate that inside TradingView. Do you use any of that yourself? Like, do you use some of your own tools also to give you entry signals, to give you um targets, things like that?

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Yeah, so uh I I I actually built my I started a company called ChartSmith, uh chartsmith.dev, um, where I build custom you know tooling software for you know whatever your needs are. Uh essentially you tell me what you want to build. And I've done that for myself. I told myself what I want to build, and what I want to build is like uh not only the indicators that I want to look at, but I've I've built myself tools that help me analyze the markets a lot quicker, make decisions a lot quicker. So you'll see on stream, like I paint candles that help me identify when I want to be long or when I want to be short. Uh, I've created filters within my indicator that like align with my higher time frame analysis, which allows me then to look at multiple markets. So a lot of people what I used to do is only focus on one market, whether it's ES or NQ, and I'd have to do all those mental calculations on the fly to tell me like I want to be long or shorter. With like my own indicator that I made for myself, I can you know look at now I look at NQYM and RTY and I can say like within seconds what I want to do, where I want to go short, if I want to go short, where I want to go long, if I want to go long. Um, and you know it's helped me. And you know, if if people want that type of help, you know, feel free to reach out.

SPEAKER_03 21:07

Yeah, and I think to be honest, it's helped us as well, because I mean, if if for for the few of them that have the of the audience that have actually followed stream, you will see us. I'm gonna do a reel about that as well, or a YouTube video about that tomorrow, I think. Um where we actually switch quite actively between tickers. Like we will be when we started out a couple of months ago, even it was like MQ and ES, uh, and and that was it. Um, we traded RTY today on the micros. Um and we trade you, I think some of us traded YM as well, right? We tried it traded YM a couple of days ago as well. So expanding that, how to both of you, how have you found that? Is it is it easy to switch? You're you've automated it a little bit, Mike, with your indicators there. How how about you, Griffin?

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Do you do you um do you like it or is it difficult? It's a little bit more difficult trading, I would say. I need it requires a lot more. Focus and memory. I a couple months ago when we started this, I was strictly watching and trading ES. And I then I slowly added NQ, saying they they move similar, right? We'll take whatever one's cleaner. And within the past like two or three weeks, I've added um YM and RTY as well. So it requires me to just constantly be switching, but also keeping in mind what I want to see on each indice that day. So I'll go in and look at the hourly, look at the daily, and look at the 15-minute time frame and say, all right, this is kind of what we're doing on RTY and YM right now. This is this is what I'd like to see today. And I watch the opening range set on everything. And um, and it's a lot more switching through. And let's say I'm looking at ES chart right now, and then in my head, I'm like, shoot, I gotta go check YM and see see if that trade I wanted is setting up. And I don't use any any tools or automation for that. So I'm constantly um flipping back and forth. So I definitely need to uh be a lot more locked in on the chart. Whereas before, if I'm just watching ES, it was like, I know what ES is doing. I'm looking for one setup, and I could sit there, I could look away from the chart for 15 minutes probably. Yeah, and just like just it would come to me. It was easy, it was simple. So it's more, but I feel like there's so much more opportunity. Like today, for example, ES and NQ were were drifting in no man's land. No opportunities, no setups for for an entry today. And um, RTY gave me a clean break and a clean bounce, just about the two most perfect setups I could have asked for, and I hit max profit today. So if I and if I didn't add them, that's that's it's a no-trade day today. So yeah, it's worked well.

SPEAKER_03 23:38

How about you, Mike?

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Uh I would tend to I disagree a little bit, but I think it's also because I have a lot more monitor space than Griffin. Um, and I've added my indicator to help. Um, what I think has been valuable for me is it's made me not force medium setups, you know. The idea that um looking at three symbols instead of one allows me to pick which one has the most optimal setup. So today it was actually it was YM, but like RTY was good was good enough and it got us a win. And then YM setup too, and I got a win on that too. Um, but you know, it it uh if I was only trading NQ or ES, I might have not had a trade today, right? Um you know, uh, and there are some days where we we looked at YM and it never even broke out of its like 15-minute opening range, and we were an hour and a half in. So, like if I was only looking at YM, that would have sucked for that day. Um, so you know, I I found that it's been it's been better in you know, allowing me to have better trade setups overall, but uh and making me a little bit more choosy, you know, picky on on what trades I can take.

SPEAKER_03 25:04

I like it. That's actually an interesting point because you you would you could fear as well that you would be all over the place and taking trades left, right, and center, but it's actually allowing you to say, okay, first 15 minutes is done. Like today, we can leave ES and we can leave NQ because they were just ripping uh out of uh all kinds of good setups. Um then we focus on YM and RTY and we got some good setups there's uh to me, it's also been super beneficial where where it's yeah, it's a good point you're making that it's it's actually allowing us to choose the good setups rather than force the mediocre ones.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Yeah, I like that point that that Mike made about I you know I haven't even thought about it that way yet, but it that makes a lot of sense because if I wasn't looking at RTY today, I might have forced something on on ES, just wanted to take a trade, a boredom trade. But there's plenty more opportunity out there since I've added more indices to um there's just more opportunity to be had. You know what I mean? If ES doesn't give me a setup great, something else might more and better opportunities, right? Yes, exactly. Exactly. There's more chance, like let's say I have criteria for an A plus setup. If I have four indices, there's a better chance I get that setup than than looking at one.

SPEAKER_03 26:17

And and that relies on the whole idea that theoretically the VWAP trades should translate across any asset, really, right? If you have volume, you have liquidity, you can get a good fill, you should be able to trade any any asset, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:31

Yeah as long as it's centrally uh um like so futures are are centralized, right? So every order has to go to the same market. I can't say the same for Bitcoin, I can't say the same for stocks, even. So to me, VWAP trading you know has an extra edge on futures. Um, definitely not forex because there's definitely no centralized exchange for forex, but right uh so CFDs.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

Okay, that would be impossible. Um awesome. Um what a little bit of a well, first of all, actually, how is it going mentally? I mean, are you struggling? I always kind of ask my guests down also when I ask the home team, are you guys what are you working on mentally right now? Because that's always also both an issue and some potential when we talk day trading.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

I'm uh I'm focused on slowing my brain down. I feel like I'm fine mentally, I'm doing all right. Uh last month was my first red month in like I want to say, I don't know, it might have been like eight months. I I had had green months in a row, had my first red month, didn't feel great, you know, a lot of losing days, a lot of um just poor trading, to be honest. And I'm doing all right, and I think part of the problem was I get in my head when I'm anywhere near payout, I'm I'm crunching the numbers way too much. So that's something I need to work on mentally, is I'm always thinking the next session. Oh, let's say, oh, I'm two trades away from payout, right? Okay, so it's a Wednesday now, I can get the payout by Friday. So, you know what I mean? And those numbers are always running through my head. All right, let's uh oh, I'm $800 from payout. I just need a $400 winner tomorrow and the next day, and I can definitely get a payout by the end of this week. And those numbers and and that those thoughts had me holding on to trades longer for more profit and just making mistakes, really.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

So I mean, I'm in a similar boat, you know, like it was only you know a week ago that uh it was on literally Friday where uh I was up like $900 on the day or eleven hundred dollars on the day, and I was like three hundred dollars away from a payout. And what I should have done was just been like, all right, I'm happy, I'm up eleven hundred dollars on the day. Come back on Monday, we'll get a good trade on Monday to get it over there. Nah, nah. Nah, had to get I had to get it on Friday. I had to get that payout on Friday, and uh, but ended up losing whatever profit I had plus another 200 on top, sent me back, built it back up, lost it again, lost that uh again on on that that Trump tweet yesterday. That was that was um, but no, like what what what I've been working on really is you know, something we joke around in the in the stream is like having the perfect amount, the perfect size balls, you know, like the idea is like putting putting enough risk on that you're not taking months to pass an eval or to get a payout, but not too much risk that it's like irresponsible. Um so like my goal is like pass an eval in one to two days, aim for a payout in under a week, right? And if I'm taking longer than that, that means I'm not risking enough. If I'm taking uh if I'm trying to go less than that, I'm risking too much. Um, so uh I think in the three weeks ago I I did it perfectly. Last week I, you know, uh probably under-risked, uh except for Friday. Um, and then um this week I'm trying to get back on track. Uh it's been a rough week though with the price action that we've had though.

SPEAKER_03 30:20

So just a quick question to both of you. You go you go first, Mike. You said you had you work with fairly tight stops. Yep. So you must size pretty big, right? What's your typical size on let's say on one of the familiar indices like NQ?

SPEAKER_01 30:35

So on NQ, I'm generally in the range of four to six micros. Uh and I'm trying to risk on on a funded account. I'm trying to risk a 50k funded account, I should say. I'm trying to risk about 500 to 700 per trade. Um, generally staying around 500. Uh, and I'm trying to win about a thousand, you know, like anywhere from like 750 to 1000, you know, like two a thousand would be my two R type of thing.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Um and on YM, I'm generally two minis on RTY, two to three minis. Um, sometimes on YM. Yeah. Uh sometimes on YM I need a little bit of a bigger stop, so I'll just stick to one mini. Um but um yeah, that's generally where I'm at with size.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Nice. I'm on I'm in a similar spot. I like to risk just about the same that Mike does. I'm usually going for in a funded, about like a 50k funded, about like $600 risk, shooting for the consistency target, shooting to make about $600 per trade. Um, that's when I'm trading instant funded. So that that's what I'm going for in an eval. Um I'm trading a lucid eval right now. The the uh daily loss limit is $1,200. So I'm looking to risk $1,200 and uh make make whatever I can do, risk as much as I can risk on an eval, get through it quick and uh make whatever my target is. Let's say it's a a negative R trade. I risk $1200, make $800 to $1,000. That's fine with me. I'll look for a second trader, I'll move on, you know. So yeah, that's where I'm at.

SPEAKER_03 32:09

There's a there's a certain point in everyday trader or prop trader's journey where where you get to a stage where an eval is something that simply needs to be full ported. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Yes, yeah. Why do I want to spend more than a couple days in an eval? You can eval the goal is you know the the goal is to not be in one account for multiple months without a payout. Like you know, like we're we're all trying to be six, seven-figure traders. You're not gonna do that by you know getting one twenty five hundred dollar payout every three months, yeah. You're gonna do that by getting a $2,500 payout every week. Yeah, you know, like so. If I'm on a 50k account, I need to be my goal is to get a $25 or $2,000 payout every week, right? Um, that'll get me to six figures. And if I can't do that, I either need to trade more accounts or trade a bigger account. Um but I uh I'm not trying to be uh in an eval or even an unfunded account for more than a week or two. Uh and if I'm if I'm not churning or if I'm not getting a payout every two weeks, I'm doing something wrong.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Or at least that's the goal.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

You know, like obviously I'm not there yet, but that that's the goal. Yeah, I would completely agree. I think that is the goal. I don't think you want to be stalling in an account, a funded account, but especially an eval. If you're a beginner, it's a different story. You want to learn while spending the least amount as possible. So you do want to sit in an eval for as long as it takes, right? But if you if you're if you've had a payout before, if you know how to trade and you have a system that works, I don't think you you want to be sitting in an eval more than a week, two weeks tops. You need to be pushing the e-balls, and then you're funded, same thing. You got to be shooting for a payout. You know, you're not you're not shooting to you should I don't think you should be risking a hundred dollars a trade. You know what I mean? I think your goal is to to make money, so you gotta you gotta push to make money.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

Take some self-evaluation though, right? Like you have to evaluate where you are yourself as a trader or where you think you are. So like I I think I'm at that stage where I'm just like, I'm just right there. You know, like if I can tweak a couple things in my, you know, maybe my trade management or something like uh or just get rid of the right. Yeah, have the right cycles. You know, like you know, I'm right there. Uh uh, but if you're at a stage in your where you're not confident in the trades that you're taking, um, or if you're you know are still learning and and you you need to be honest with yourself where you are, um, then then maybe you want to milk that eval for as much as possible so that you can you know continue to learn and test and try things until you figure out what works for you. I'm fully on top of that.

SPEAKER_03 34:56

Yeah, because it is that middle ground where you do have you have your fee, you have that little bit of money on the line uh as opposed as opposed to paper trading, um, but it's not a funded account that costs you 300 bucks and and all that, right? So I think it's also a good proving ground. Um it's not but it's not something you should be stuck in. Even as a beginner, you shouldn't be you shouldn't start paying um subscriptions like uh several months, you know, you you get a subscription fee because you have it for more than a month. Um, so yeah, it's um it's it's it's a balance. Um, and I I really also take in what you say about funded accounts because I have actually I am doing that right now. I'm simply not risking enough. That's another story I'm gonna be making a video about because my my typical winning day is three to four hundred bucks. My consistency score on these accounts is 600, so I'm actually never really hitting the consistency, which you know the right size balls, it it simply means I'm I'm the traits are okay, but the size is wrong. So so I'm not um I'm not doing I'm not risking enough for what it is. It's a prop account, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Like yes, but that's how they get you, right? That's how they get you. That's how they get you.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:07

But but I think there's another way they get you. That's when you size uh ridiculously uh big, right? And you blow it up.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

But that that consistency score is made to slow you down, and that plays on the impatience of human beings, right? So, like if you have a 20% consistency score, that means the fastest you can get a payout is five days, right? And generally, you're not gonna hit that six hundred dollar profit every five days in a row.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Five five days in a row, especially. You might hit it a couple days, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Like a high win rate, yeah. Yeah, you need a really high win rate, and like if you have if you're a negative risk to reward trader, you have one red day, all of a sudden now it's seven, maybe eight days as your fastest. That's not the life I want to live. I want to live in a 50% consistent score, yeah. You know, you know, and you can't get that in a straight defunded, so you have to go through the eval. So you want to pass that eval in one day, maybe two, and then you know, get that payout as fast as possible, too. I mean, that there are other routes you could do, like you know, other people I see on social media are doing like I want to trade 20 accounts and I want to trade them all really slowly, but like one hundred dollar win is like two thousand dollars, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Yeah, that's another good method, too. I mean, you're you're you have so much drawdown when you're doing that, trading them small. You can you know, keep them for a long time, but that could really mess with you mentally, I think, especially trading them slow. You have 20 accounts, and that that'll take you a couple months to get a payout or something, right? Um imagine imagine you spend so much on those 20 accounts, and three months goes by and you blow them all.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

That's the messing. It goes down to how does your brain work? Like my brain needs the instant gratification. You know, other other people's brains can be like, I can wait two months, but when I get that that payout in two months, it's gonna be 20 grand, you know, 30 grand, you know. And that's great for that.

SPEAKER_03 38:04

It's also it's not it's not just the hundred dollar wins, it's it's still your risk reward, right? Because if you take a hundred dollar win but you take a three hundred dollar loss every now and then, it's not gonna work. Then you're gonna be stuck in that account for a long time, right? You're just gonna it's a slope lead, right? Um yeah. So so talking about this, it's it's inevitable that we're also gonna touch up on upon prop accounts, I think, and prop firms. I think it's you made a good point there, both of you, about um about the consistency score actually with a with an instant fund, it is 20%. I haven't actually put much thought into that before, but it is there's a lot, it's typically a lot easier going through an eval stage. So, what what kind of accounts are you guys trading right now? And what do you what do you find good versus bad?

SPEAKER_01 38:52

You want to start space? Yeah, so uh I regret what I did, but uh you know you can mention companies and all that stuff, it's fine. We will talk about drops in this latest batch of evals. I bought the five-pack of apexes, right? Um, and I probably had my best trading week of like the last year, the first week that I bought it. The problem was I passed three of the five apexes, whereas if I would have just dedicated that time to one 50k account, I would have gotten a payout, right? Yeah, um, so I divided my time across three accounts, and now week two, and then week three, you know, I'm I lost two of those accounts and now I'm on my last one. Um, with still yet to get a payout on I and I did three of them. So, but what I plan to do in the future is actually just go from no activation fees, 50k evals, probably on Lucid because uh Lucid has rhythmic connections and I I like to connect to Cierra charts. So that that's probably where I'm gonna do moving forward after this account gets a payout, or if I blow it up.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Cool. Um, I just hopped back on the eval train. It's been a year and a half for me since I bought an eval. I've been on instant funded since since top one futures dropped and just just trading instant funded. I like both models. I know uh I know the industry is shifting back towards evals, but for the way that I trade, sort of a one to one R, negative R sometimes. Um, I never really struggle much with a consistency score because my winning days are never really bigger than the $600 target. So it doesn't get in my way. People who trade a positive R and risk $500 that want to hit three R and make $1,500, obviously that's you're never gonna that doesn't work with your system, right? You can't trade it. For me, I can trade it fine. Um, it's worked for me in the past, but I also think that those those eval models are are pretty intriguing as well. So I'm trading a lucid eval right now. Once you pass five days of 150 profit, that's a payout. I do think it's an easier path to pay out. It just like we've been talking about the whole time, it all depends on your personality and how you like to trade.

SPEAKER_03 41:10

What I've come to conclude also, because for me it's a bit of a marathon hitting these 3K targets on a 50k with a 20% consistency. It's been up and down and up and down and up now. Um, that to me, that's kind of a marathon approach. Uh, and it is it is arguably a bigger payout waiting at the end of it, versus the the top step lucid kind of sprint approach where you you hit five days, they don't have to be consecutive, right? You just hit five days of of let's call it a very small win. Yes, it translates to a very small payout, but it's a payout.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

Yep. Easier path to payout, but smaller payout. And I think it's a good uh it's a good step for someone who's struggling to take consistent payouts. I think the evals are the way to go because you can get your confidence up. It's a lot easier to get to a payout, although it might be smaller, it might be half the size or less. You know, if you get to a payout in a 50k incident, you take up 2250, you get to a payout in an eval, it might be 500 bucks, but then you can repeat that process and keep making 500 versus just blowing accounts. You can get your confidence back and actually pull some money out of the market.

SPEAKER_03 42:16

I'll give you an example. I took uh $1,000 in two two separate payouts, so totaled $1K out of a top step account. That the account I got it in just around February 1st. And I took the first payout early March, the next payout early April. So in two months, I got two payouts, one K. I've been spending all time since then trading my top one accounts. Um, it's not to talk bad about top one, it's just I am I'm like 2K in profit. So I'm two-thirds of the way, but it's just going like this. Um so it's it's so so could I have made, you know, I could maybe have taken two, three, four payouts on topstead in the meantime. Maybe that's that's that's my thinking right now.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

Doing this is a problem for me too, the last couple months. You guys remember I had that that top one account, it was uh $70 for payout. That one's still hurt. I blew it last week.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

Epic story, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

The congratulations scripting.

SPEAKER_03 43:13

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

I got just screwed over in chat.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

Yeah, it was like chat getting congrats. He's that close to the target. T P was it was like two points on ES from TP, maybe like one point, and that was that was payout. And you know, I get it. He hasn't been to chat since he hasn't. No, he hasn't. I get a congrats in the chat, and I say, Hold on, don't don't say that yet. Don't jingle down a full stop.

SPEAKER_03 43:40

I actually um and you blew that was the account you lost last week? Yep, that's crazy. Um, I actually reached out to him uh yesterday because I hadn't heard from him in in in weeks, so uh, but he's still lurking around in the chat and so on. So yeah, um, good stuff. Um, I think we're we're gonna sort of wrap it up here. It's been a really, really great conversation. Obviously, you guys are forced to do a part two of this because you're the home team. Um so but um it's been a blast. And for anyone uh listening, we do stream every single morning, 9:30 eastern to 11. Uh and you can follow us along there. Um, a s a small clock as well. We're gonna have uh a giveaway of five top on futures accounts next week on on Tuesday, August 18th.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Yeah, what what day? The 18th. Just wanted to make sure people hear the date.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

The 18th, exactly. Yeah, so it's gonna be a big party online, and uh, and hopefully, hopefully, we'll also take some wins on stream. So um, to make sure you tune in there.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

We have a good time. We've got to be more optimistic. We're gonna take some wins on stream. Gonna take some wins.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Yes, some wins for payouts and some giveaways, and we're having a good time. We're having fun, so come join us.

SPEAKER_03 44:49

Exactly, exactly. Good stuff. Okay, see you guys tomorrow on stream. Yeah, thanks for joining.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Having a time, take it easy.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

Bye guys.