How EOS Strengthens an ESOP Company

What happens when an ESOP company implements EOS?

In this episode of ESOP Radio, Trevor Gilmore and Ben Spadt sit down with Dave Jaeger, CEO of Legacy Utility, and Craig Hettrich, EOS Implementer at The Hetrick Group, to explore how ownership structure and operating discipline work together.

Legacy Utility is a growing underground utility contractor that paired employee ownership with EOS to align leadership, improve accountability, and build long-term value.

In this episode:

• What EOS actually is — and why it matters
• How EOS complements an ESOP structure
• Aligning people, performance, and equity
• Leadership accountability in an employee-owned company
• Ownership mindset vs. entitlement mindset
• Real operational improvements (including measurable cost savings)
• Why ESOPs need structure to fully unlock culture

An ESOP creates ownership. EOS creates alignment. Together, they create execution.

Considering an ESOP? Request a confidential preliminary feasibility review at Menke.com.

Learn more:

• ESOP Radio: https://www.menke.com/esop-radio/
  
  
• ESOP Boot Camp: https://www.menke.com/esop-boot-camp/
  
  
• Menke: https://www.menke.com

Learn more:

• ESOP Radio: https://www.menke.com/esop-radio/
• ESOP Boot Camp: https://www.menke.com/esop-boot-camp/
• Confidential feasibility review: https://www.menke.com

Transcript

0:03

Hi everyone. Welcome to ESOP Radio. Today we're covering EOS and ESOP's. I'm Trevor Gillmor, CEO of Menke. And I'm Ben Spadt, an investment banking consultant with Menke. Since 1974, we have done thousands of esops. And we enjoy sharing stories of successful ESOP companies. Their owners and their strategies. Today our guests are Dave Jaeger, CEO of Legacy Utility, and Craig Hetrick, who runs the Hetrick Group, an EOS coach and implementer. Okay, let's go ahead and kick it off, then. Dave, let's start here. Let's, give us a 62nd version of your company. What do you do? How big are you? And, kind of. What's the growth trajectory? You know, maybe in the last couple years, as well as looking into the future. Yeah. So we are a, underground utility company. We specialize in services, for large services and municipalities and other agencies and such. We we focus a lot on hydro excavation, clean and TV. And basically anything that's got to do with underground is usually where you can find one of our, pieces of equipment, would be useful. Company size. We have about 200 employees, a little over 200 employees. And we're looking to double in size and then double again. So that's all I know there. If I may chime in. So your other brand or cal pipe, like I see your trucks here. I'm in Southern California and, Coast Highway often and so on. So an astute listener probably recognize your truck somewhere in California. And I know that's very true. And with, you know, with the staff that size, you know, us seems to make sense. When did you decide to implement it? And were you trying to solve a problem or just lean things out? Yeah. No, that's a great question. So we implemented, EOS . What? Craig, two years ago, we started working with you. Two years? Yeah. Yeah. And, the the thing we were trying to solve is it came at the recommendation of our CFO, who was, working with another company at the time, and, or previously. And so she recommended that we look into it some, might see. Oh, and I picked up the books and, started reading on it and, which was traction. And, and then we realized that that we needed to maybe start implementing some of these things. And the idea was, is that we needed to get a little bit better structure, operationally and a little cleaner. We found that oftentimes, two of us were working on similar things when really one of us was really needed. And so it allowed us to kind of, divide and conquer, really quickly. You know, that makes good a lot of sense. Now, once you had that in place, how quickly were you thinking Esop and was it one because of the other, or was there something else at play? Yeah. No. So what's unique about the EOS process is you start laying out, strategies and goals and, you look at a one year or three year or five year, ten year plans and something that, you know, we'd never really formally written down, especially is a family owned business, something we never sat across the table from. My dad was my business partner and said, hey, this is what we're going to do in three years. And just, you know, in those moments, you're you're drinking through the firehose and you're moving fast. And so it was forces you to slow down a little bit and talk about the things that maybe are just assumed and, and create a little more clarity. So funny enough, is that an Esop was in our three year goal. Coincidentally, we did it in less than three years. But it accelerated it a little bit. But, an Esop was one of our three year goal plans. We just checked it off in a year and 18 months versus three years. Yeah, that's, pretty quick. You know, almost half the time, I've seen that happen with a number of other companies, whether it's, revenue targets or what, you know, headcount targets, they get there quicker once they implement the EOS model, which then, you know, Craig, I'll ask you, for people that don't live in the EOS world, what does it actually do for a leadership team day to day? And also, you know, maybe a brief description of what EOS is, you know, what the heck is it? Yeah, sure. Great point. So EOS really enables leadership teams. And are companies do three things to be good at vision, traction, healthy vision from a standpoint of getting everyone in the company, not just the leadership team, everyone to know where the company's going, how they're going to get there. Because Dave said a lot of companies don't really have that figured out. They're just fighting day to day and doing well. But there's no longer term plan traction really, about executing well. It gets your vision all the way up and down your organization. It doing it with focus, discipline and accountability. Because a lot of times we don't see that in these companies. And a lot of times the accountability part is really missing in the discipline part, you know, chasing shiny objects, things like that. And in healthy everyone, an organization is really participating in teams that are really cohesive, aligned and productive. So what EOS in is essence is a series of tools and processes. They help you strengthen all different parts of your business so that you don't. When you start to step, change your business, you don't get stuck at the ceiling because there's something that you haven't figured out or is a weakness. You can continue to grow and step change your business at scale because you strengthen all parts of your business with the right tools, the right processes. That's that's a great summation. And also some great points in there. One being, you know, it's not just leadership that we're training here or that we're implementing this program for. It's everybody, you know, to have that entrepreneurial mindset and ownership in your, in your job. And, you know, Esops hope to do the same thing. And we're creating that broad based benefit program for everybody, not just, you know, the people in offices. It's everybody. And, you know, to speak a little bit more to that and to shed a little more light. Trevor, do you want to talk about how EOS and Esops kind of work together? Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Ben. And yeah, so overall, as we think about EOS and Esops, right. You know, it's both are helping companies achieve, you know, greater scale than they would have done before. You know. So Dave, when we think about that in terms of us helping, you know, at the end of the day, create this operating system, really to run the company. Right? It's sort of a management, you know, kind of thesis or management theory, you know, a bit. And then the Esop being a shareholder there, when did it click for you that, hey, this might be a good combination, you know, to do for legacy, you know, so first question and the second question is, you know, as far as timing, you know, you did the EOS two years ago, Esop, you know, over the past year and a half. But, close that basically a year ago, you know, so overall, you know, when you think about that back up several months before you close the Esop, you know, we when you think through, hey, doing both at the same time, you know, did it make sense to do that? And in hindsight, you know, are you happy with the end result right now where you are, you know, so two questions there. Yeah. You know, it's the marriage of Esop. And EOS is really just been a fortunate, you know, occurrence for us. We didn't really plan it out. I wish I could say I was that smart and and had that much foresight. Right. But in reality, both of which I think I wanted, I didn't know what to call EOS . I didn't know EOS existed until it was brought into my life. But I knew we needed structure and I knew where I wanted to go. And Esop was always something we talked about. Well, we thought it was bigger companies. And so much, like I've told you, I think a handful of times of how you and I met Trevor. I did a feasibility study with you in the Menke group, thinking that you were going to email me back and say it wasn't. It wasn't a fit, like we we didn't qualify. Right. So, and, similar to that, I picked up a book and read about EOS and thought, oh, this is this is neat. And then met Craig and then it just kind of was like, oh, there's a lot of alignment here. And this makes a lot of sense. And, and, you know, the marriage of those two, what I love about it is, is the, the, the transparency that both provide. And I think that's where the real marriage comes in, is that an Esop creates this transparency of like, hey, this is where the business is going. There's some financial transparency, there's the valuation of the business. And Esop creates that, us creates a transparency like, here's the day to day, here's the week to week, here's what everybody's working on, and here's where we're going. And when you get those things together, it's starting to feel like we've got a little bit of a fire going here. Going definitely. So transparency that's definitely an interesting angle here. You know, you think about that because compare that to a company that's not is not EOS . Right. And often decisions financial performance you know and so on. Right. It can be very opaque right. Just depending on the culture of the company. And speaking about that culture is huge, right? You know, that really drives a lot of things for a company is it's really hard to change and so on. So when you think about culture, you know, the culture at legacy enable a smooth EOS and easy transition and then also post EOS and Esop. Of course EOS is ongoing. Right. And same thing with Esop. But I'm talking about, you know, the post transition there. Have you noticed any sort of change in leadership accountability, you know, and overall excitement, you know, for both programs? Yeah, absolutely. I think that, as we started to implement EOS , there was a natural like kind of like, oh, here's another thing that they're pushing down. And sometimes it feels like that. Right. But then I think as people started to really, really gravitate towards growth, and I think you find that most people don't really are really looking for, you know, a 5 or $10,000 raise. In most instances, they're looking for someone where they can grow and be valued. And I think, us offering EOS is and the Esop, as well, you know, gives them opportunities for growth and it gives them opportunities to, to to understand where we're going and how they can help improve where we're going. And and I think the clarity I think a lot of people operate in, in the dark in some instances and they don't really know. They just kind of do their day to day. And we want to try to eliminate some of those hurdles and like say, hey, you know, this is what we're trying to accomplish and this is where you're important. This is your value in the company. Because a lot of the tools that EOS take out some of the things that you're not good at, right? So you have like a delegate and delegate, elevated exercise, you know, or we like to call getting, you know, finding more people super powers are which I think I stole from Craig, but, finding out what people are good at and then and then accentuating those, those traits and and and and finding workarounds so that they're operating and what they're good at and then eliminate the stuff they're not good at. And maybe that's somebody else's superpower. So you start all of a sudden bolting on a team and it works together. And it starts to really create some continuity. Yeah. That's great. So it sounds like, you know, getting the right people in the right seat. Right. And everyone aligned. I mean, that's kind of core principle of us. Right. Or is we have that, that make sure Esop that much more successful, that was valuable. You know, so on. So yeah, that's an interesting parallel there. How long would you say, you know, took for employees to understand us. Right. I know it's a process, you know, to get that implemented. So on but how long would you say it took for them to understand EOS ? And then second Esop, you know, in terms of, you know, hey, we get this big picture now, this transparency, you know, this roadmap on where legacy is headed over the next one, three, five years. And was it overnight or was it more of a process? Oh, it's definitely a process. The EOS the beauty in it is it's a weekly thing. It's a living document. It evolves weekly. Esop is a little slower, because, you know, we get valuations annually. Right? And so what we've had to do is create we have a committee that works in the background to help facilitate questions if people have them. I think some of them have bubbled up to you as well. We've we've worked on some videos and some, some presentations so that the team can kind of get their questions answered. We've also did one on ones where I just have an open calendar, and they can log in to Calendly and, and hook up with me on email or, on video. And we can talk through their specifics, to try and just help people understand it a little bit better. As far as the EOS process, because it's weekly and then Craig is a part of our that is a part of our, our training program. It allows us to maybe pick it up a little quicker because people are getting forced to to take that class with Craig and understand how the meeting cadence works. And then every meeting they're a part of is this exact same cadence. Even if the meeting is a different department, the cadences are all the same, and they all live in the same area, and everybody's like, numbers intertwined and things like that. It's great. And, Craig, I'll kick it over to you for a couple questions here. First one, from your perspective, what's different about implementing EOS in an Esop? And I'll broaden that up to almost any employee owned company or for that matter. Yeah. Versus one that doesn't have employee ownership or broad based ownership. You know, one that only has maybe, you know, a small handful of owners. Sure. So realistically the same process. Right. But different mindset. So if you think about what Esop provides is you have a lot more committed sense of ownership, not only just with a leadership team, but everyone down through the organization. So now they're thinking a little differently, because one of the biggest issues we have was we have to work hard at leadership. Team typically buys in. We get the right people, right seat over time, they're buying in. But it's just moving down through the layers. Is getting that commitment of ownership takes time and the right people and and sometimes you're going to have a little bit of organizational change. You get those right people. But we found in a couple is this now with these top companies, that sense of ownership mentality is they're faster with the Esop. So everybody down through the management levels on down are way more interested in and results in what's, they know what could be in it for them and so forth. So I think you have a better construct of getting solid execution with the Esop company all the way down through the company. You got it. So, you know, basically the culture of some of these employee owned companies, whether there's Esop or direct ownership, maybe they already have that ownership mentality. So buying into EOS, you know, understanding and seeing the value you know, possibly that's you know, a benefit, you know, from the get go go in EOS. So let's talk a bit about Esop companies, you know, and how they operate with EOS. And what I'm curious here is, you know, we've seen all types of esops, right? You know, large companies, small companies, companies with 1 or 2 long term shareholders who go Esop. And then the owner, you know, the employees that are like, okay, you know, now we need to, like, get up to speed. You know, they retired and then we need to run this thing. You know, but we think about Esop companies adopting EOS. Where do you see they tend to struggle in the adoption and implementation of us. And you get all broad in that definition to Esop and, you know, just employee owned companies. So it could be an engineering company with 20 shareholders or whatever. Right. You know, but where do you see they tend to struggle, you know, with adopting that. And how have you overcome that? Sure. I think the biggest area that I see, so you're you're a business owner used to you made all your decisions just so you can make it like that, right? Yeah. So now you just not necessarily can you have to have a board vote or board. So there's more fiduciary responsibility, more governance. And some companies really react to it quicker and adapt to it. But I think legacy has done a nice job of that. Other companies I've worked with struggled crazily with, had to finally wrestle them to the ground. So we talk about really why that matters and why good governance matters, and putting more rigor into decisions matters. Because do we get more constituents now that we're concerned about? But that's part of the US process, too. We do talk about accountability, really good assumptions. We do things making better decisions. So it's part of, EOS. But sometimes that's the last part that that comes across that we're used to moving so fast. We're going to make all those decisions without wait a minute, we have to we have to have some good fiduciary governance involved with making some of those decisions. Yeah. It seems like, you know, companies, right. Their existing processes and, you know, existing set up got them to where they are. Right. And then they need EOS to get to that next level. Right. So that means, you know, decision making is probably going to be different. Right. You know, you know, getting the right people in the right seats and so on. When you say, you know, so I think of us here, I'm, I think of a company that wants to grow and realizes, you know, their blind spot, right? You know, because you can have a CFO, CEO, see, you know, strong leadership team and so on. But, you know, at the end of the day, all of us have strengths and weaknesses. Would you say those who co EOS, you know, are those who are, you know, basically looking for growth number one and two really looking to, you know, kind of better themselves and their company. Like is there that sort of drive, you know, to want to go through this and, and adopt, you know, versus just status quo. Yeah. So typically here's what we see. We see a company this did a nice job driving to where they can be like 5 million, 10 million sometimes 20 million just depends on the numbers they were. The CEO owner has willed the business to that level, willed it right. And and really there's a super power and the owner super power in a team. But there's some holes in their game, things that they haven't had to worry about. For instance, with the right people, right seats or the strategies for the long term, you know, processes being documented and things like that. But it's usually been that the owner is, is is in the visionary in the business, we call it. The US wants to be out of all that day to day stuff. They want to realize they've taken the company as far as they could take it without a strong leadership team. So usually the first thing we have to do is make sure we have a strong leadership team can take you to that next level. And then when we do get that and when it's a accomplished, the visionary, a CEO has so much more relief. They can actually have a life because you think about when you're willing to business. This is a lot of weight on you personally, right. And therefore now you realize you can have some some people rowing in a boat with you, especially with you couple with Esop. They act more like owners ownership mentality. So is that just you act like an owner. You have a leadership team and a teams down below that. There's a lot of pressure off the owner at that point. Yeah, that's great. And that's something when we go down the Esop path of prospects, you know, tell us about your business. And then number two, are you the business. Do you do everything you know. Is the business tidy. Right. And if so that's a big risk case. Yeah. Yeah. Then I'm going to kick it over to you. I know you have. Yeah. Questions you ask I do. I kind of want to dip into the, you know, whole accountability and ownership mindset. And, you know, we've sort of discussed esops and LS in a vacuum. You know, this is the way it's supposed to happen. But like Craig alluded to, it's easy for leadership to buy into. But, Dave, how do you connect things like rocks scorecards? L tends to, you know, the employee's day to day so that they feel like this is going somewhere. This means something as opposed to just another meeting, just another. You know, the boss wants me to do just one more thing. Yeah. No. So had you asking this question six months ago, I would have said I. The answer would've been, I don't know. But to be completely honest with you, we've now hit what we're at the end of January of our first year, as an Esop company. And, the, the amount of emails I have received in the last two weeks about, hey, we hit numbers. When are the, when when is the stock price going to be revealed? Like, oh, yeah, we got there's a whole long process there we have to go through in order to release that stuff. It's, I'm not hiding it. It's just it takes time to come out. So, the amount of emails I've gotten is been pleasantly surprising, and, and, and it tells me that the team is thinking in the right terms. They're thinking, okay, now how do I how does it how the what I did impact me and how did it impact my the stock price overall? And that's, that's a it's a great feeling. I mean, I can tell you in doing this for now I'm going on 19 years. That's never happened. I mean it's never happened at the middle management level. It's only happened, at the higher level of, hey, how did we do, like a CFO or CEO? Oh, right. It's never it's never middle management. Yeah. Asking. Hey, so we did we hit our numbers. How did this impact the stock price? I'm like, I love it. I love this email. I wish I could get a million of these. Yeah, it's easy, to just say, hey, you know, we worked hard, we hit our numbers, you know, show me that stock price. But have you truly seen on a day to day, it affecting, you know, decision making or execution on the job side or just in employees, actions? Yeah, absolutely. So we noticed, credit card spending is down over the year. And then the other thing we we did a little, comparative analysis for, for fuel and, people, people we did a little contest to, like, idling and stuff, because we have big equipment. And so if guys are just idling in their equipment, it's just burning fuel. And fuel is one of our biggest costs. That's kind of controllable to some degree. And so we, we did a little comp and then, we're able to send out some, some, you know, out of buoys and, some stuff to the employees that had the, the best, percentage differential month over month in terms of money saved, for the, for the Esop. And so highlighting things like that, I think, and people thinking along those lines is a dramatic shift. Oh, yeah. I mean, nobody really thinks about how big of an expense fuel can be. It's sort of like napkins at a barbecue restaurant. You know, you're going to go through a tub, right? And so idling does, you know, that's that's a really good point. I love that example. But with all this accountability and Craig, I'm going to ask you this one, is there ever accountability fatigue. And then what do you do if somebody is just like, oh it's another meeting. Oh it's another, you know, x, y, z. Well, you know, when you run into accountability fatigue is when you're just managing, you just manage you by metrics and numbers. Right? So you really don't want to do that. You do want to hold yourself accountable for hitting numbers. But what we find is that you never lose sight of where we're going, the vision for this company, and why accountability matters now is getting to this vision and what will happen once we get there. And also in shared ownership and where employees, managers, directors have all had input into what that accountability looks like. Right. And then we discuss and have really good discussions around what we're holding ourselves accountable for. And the results of what we hold ourselves accountable for. So it's really not necessarily about the numbers. It's about what how we're getting to where we need to go. Vision wise, and what do we need to do to solve for in your involvement in solving for that and helping us get to those numbers? Right. Because we're going to make adjustments in our strategy, adjustments in our model all along the way. So you really not just report out, hit the numbers, move on. See you later. You're not hitting numbers right. So it's a lot different. And more of a shared ownership model tends to work really well. Right. And a lot of people don't realize that that forward thinking that that projective looking, you know, we're trying to see how is the company going to be tomorrow. That's true ownership thinking. It's not, like you said, just hitting my numbers. What tools have you found in the EOS playbook that reinforce that thinking? You know, I'm building something for the future, not just show me the money. Like Dave said, you know, getting all those emails, what's the share price? What's the share price? How do we build that day to day ownership thinking, yeah, they're all good. All these tools contribute that the one by far it does the best job. There's a level ten meeting. The way you look at it is leadership teams department teams. You are running your business. It's a company level leadership team on a day in day out basis. Everybody on that team, whatever, coming at us and facing us, we are engaging with it. We are solving issues, not going away for good. We are hold ourselves accountable for recalibrating, course correcting and realigning and the most impactful and urgent things in our business that will keep us on track for hitting our numbers. So if you think about it, that that's the most single, most powerful tool to really gain engagement from your team and performance in moving that down to the department level. We want the department level do the same way is that they're doing that same thing in our level ten meetings. They have an ownership for their department. You are leaders of this department. And we are going to make this department the best we can be. Again, solving problems, not going away, recalibrating, course correcting, realigning, impactful and urgent. So if you think about if the whole company has that mindset, focus, discipline, impact, urgency, execute, you know we are going to move faster toward our goals as opposed to kicking the can down the road or flip flopping or whatever that is, which really slows it down and causes issues. Absolutely. It turns those low tens, those little turns into, a playbook as opposed to just another meeting with an agenda, you know, how do we execute? How do we. Yeah, that's a very good point. I'm going to, you know, hand it back over to Trevor. Now, you know, perhaps talk about some things that maybe didn't go a little so little smooth, kind of like that transition, some things that didn't go as smoothly. Yeah. Dave. So you know, when we think about the, the whole process. Right. And obviously had some time to reflect on, well, what did it if you had to redo one thing in combining EOS and ESOP obviously with separate processes. Right. But you know, when you look back, you know, change one thing, what would that be? Oh man. Redo one thing. And in combining the EOS and ESOP, I think it's just it's it's over communicating. We have to do a better job of rolling things out and communicating. And, I think that as a management team, you know, Craig alluded to, we move a little fast. And, at times, you know, I forget that the other 50 members of our Esop are not in the room. And, and so maybe, maybe taking some assumptions there and, and, maybe that's maybe needing to slow down a little bit whether it was rolling out EOS or rolling out Esop. And that's why we, we asked Craig to be a part of our, our, our training protocol, but then also why I created, an Esop email and then the Esop one on one meetings. In order to slow down a little bit and, and get some just face time 1 to 1 and say, hey, there's still some questions, give me what you got and let's talk to you. Because sometimes people are a little intimidated and maybe don't want to either feel stupid or talk in front of a large group. And, and so, it allows the they're a little bit better one on one to maybe ask personal questions and how things impact them. So I think for me, the, the communication, overall would be just making sure we overcommunicate the roll out. Yeah, it's easy to be excited about something too. Or any others vision. Yeah. Okay. Let's let's do it. Let's execute. Right. That's that's like a natural response. But yeah. Communication. It sounds like, you know, that. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense Craig. So when you see kind of mistakes, you know for all with companies as they adopt some you probably seen it. All right. You know, do you see any common mistakes at Esop or employee owned companies make when implementing EOS ? Yes. I think that what biggest similar to the other question you asked earlier is that we're not vetting our decisions enough. We're not laying out what are the assumptions around these decisions, because we're used to making decisions fast when we're pre. So we just boom, go. Now we really have to have some more rigor in our decisions because we have more responsibility. We had in the past where we have constituents laying out those assumptions. What what did we make this decision based on? Is something that we not a, a challenge, but we just have to get it in place so it becomes more automatic. But at first, usually it's not. It's like I still want to make those quick decisions. Yeah. Exactly. Right. Like that's fine. I'm an entrepreneur. Yeah I can make quick decisions and and so on. This is like taking a step back. Yeah. Yeah. And we're almost that time here. So, Dave, if you can give any advice and tips for anyone of embarking down the EOS and Esop, you top three tips and then I'll ask the same for you, Craig. Top three tips on anyone embarking on Esop or EOS and ease up EOS any sort. Oh, you know, I think just for me, the big thing to start with, not being afraid to let go of the vine, and it's something I still struggle with. And, Craig can speak to that firsthand. Letting letting go of the vine and understanding that, you know, I've willed the business to where I could to use Craig's phrase from earlier, and that I needed to let my team run and then offer the, the opportunity for the team to create clarity. And so it within that it it it creates clarity for the whole entire org and their individual departments, which allows them to run. And it as I've let go of the vine a little bit more and a little bit more, it's actually very freeing, and it's allowing me to feel like I'm starting to operate in my superpower, which is, which is fun and exciting and scary off same time. But it's, it's it's an enjoyable thing to be a part of, very, very fortunate and very lucky. But, my, my biggest advice would be to, to start to, to find people you trust and can work through and and letting go of the vine is really important. Now I see. Yeah. Actually, speaking of superpowers, I saw that video of you on LinkedIn where you jump out of a plane and land on a legacy utilities. Right. You know, what's funny is, people thought it was real. Thought that was real. I got I got phone calls and text messages are like, you're in the extreme sports. Yeah. No, no, no, that's not real. That's not real. I have one coming out on Friday for, the gala to, it's, think think Ron Burgundy. It's it's me. It's it's Ron Burgundy. Oh. That's great. I guess they they didn't see the little saw logo on the boardroom. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's a lot of fun. Yeah. That's great. And, Craig, you know, to close this out here, some tips for anyone embarking down the EOS path. Yeah, I think that, I think Dave hit it well, too. Hey, you got to be able to let go for sure and know that you you can't take this any further. You got to reconcile with that. Right. And the other thing is to slow down. So entrepreneurs are used to moving fast. EOS , we don't move incredibly fast when we're doing EOS because we want to make these tools and process ingrained in your everyday operating. Right. You can't do that by just go, here's a meeting. We're done. Forget about it. I go back and reinforce it and they get it finally. But at the beginning, we've already talked about this. Why are we doing this? And then I'd talk about, recite back to me how we do this and it's not there. And they realize, oh, we need to go over this again. So slow down. It takes time to learn this. And it's okay, because at the end of the day, you know, we're going to have a great organization and you can get what you really want from your business. At the end of the day, what is it you want in this system is implemented running. Well you is that owner can get what you really want. That's great. So you know, in summary, when I think about EOS , you know I think high performance. Helping the company scale to the next level. Right. And creating a system with the right people in the right seat and that everyone is part of, you know, and basically the skin in the game, you know, is up equity side. Right. But same thing, you know, very much a long term play here for us. And ESOP's long term vision, you know, a marathon not a sprint you know. But overall it's like, you know, once you reach those goals, reach that future, right? You know, you look back and you're like, it's just worth it, right? Because without these foundations, right. It's like, what's the alternative? Then any closing thoughts there before we, no, I think we've covered it pretty well. I may have, one question. Dave, were you surprised with yours or anyone super power? Not. Yeah, because I know my team pretty well. And so it's, they've been with me a long time, so it was more of the getting things out of the way and letting them evolve more and more and more. And so, like, for example, our integrator, Nick, that's a EOS term. So I'm the visionary. Nick's the integrator. Basically, I like to say I have dreams and Nick makes them come true. It's okay. So, what I was surprised with was, like, getting like that. The the hurdles that he can he the mountains he can move. Right. And the things he can make happen by getting some of the the weeds stuff out of his way. And it's been it's been fun. I've been lucky. Like I said, I've been blessed to be around the team that I have. That's awesome. Know, that's good to hear. And that's. Yeah. I just wanted to end with something easy. A little softball for you. Yeah. There you go. Yeah, that that, Craig and Dave, thanks both for joining us today. We're seeing more and more EOS , and you saw combinations out there. You know, it makes a lot of sense. So really appreciate the time today. And for our, listeners out there, how can they reach you both. Well, for me, you could call it reach me probably at my email. See Hetrick at Hetrick group.com. It's probably the easiest way to reach me. You can find me on LinkedIn, or you can reach me on email at Jager at legacy group.com. Legacy utility group.com. Awesome. Well thanks again. Thanks. Thanks guys. Trevor, that was a great conversation with Dave and Craig. It brought up a couple things in my mind, but I wanted to know from you what's one like major takeaway that you got from that conversation? Yeah. So one of the major takeaways I got then is, you know, the fact that US and SRS to acronym heavy, strategies at the institute, right? Yeah. That they work well together. And, you know, when you think about Esop being, a next generation owner of a company, EOS is very much the same thing, next generation operating system for the company, you know? So overall, it's a very interesting and a very compelling strategy for a company to take to ensure that as of right people in the right seats, that everyone's aligned around goals, you know, both business performance, operational and equity goals in the use of, so yeah. So, Ben, when you think, you know, what the key takeaways for you, you know, what stands out. Yours are very good. And I think for me, really, I was surprised at how close the overlap was for that ownership mindset. How closely aligned they were and realistically, what it can do for a company. I mean, just to hear about the fuel savings from Dave, that was amazing. I you know, you don't think about those things. But again, it goes back to the acronym of, you know, a rental car you treat, a car you own much better than the car you rent. And, and it very much goes in hand with that, that, ownership mindset. But now this was a really great conversation, and I look forward to having more like this in the future. Exactly. So ownership mindset powerful. No one washes a rental car. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Well, thanks everyone for joining us today. Thanks for listening to ESOP Radio. Feel free to reach out to us on LinkedIn. Trevor Gillmor, Ben Spadt, you can find us also ESOP Radio as a page and also meant as a page as well. Outside of that, feel free to reach out to us and we are interested in furthering the discussion here on ESOP's Reach Out, we can talk about our ESOP Fit analysis. Take care everyone. Have an awesome day. Bye bye.