The Healthcare Expert: Why Successful Men Are Destroying Their Health

Jonathan Nolan is a physician assistant with experience in thoracic surgery, emergency medicine, and critical care. In addition to practicing in the ICU, he co-owns a wellness clinic focused on preventative care and operates a healthcare-specific SEO and marketing company that helps medical practices grow through organic search and AI visibility. Drawing from years of clinical experience and entrepreneurship, Jonathan offers a unique perspective on the future of healthcare, business, and leadership.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Why Jonathan built three separate income streams while practicing medicine
• The realities of working inside hospitals and how healthcare businesses actually operate
• Building a wellness clinic focused on preventative care instead of reactive medicine
• Concierge medicine, functional medicine, and where healthcare is heading
• Testosterone, peptides, GLP-1s, and optimizing long-term health
• How AI is changing SEO and healthcare marketing
• Balancing entrepreneurship, family, and faith
• Why purpose should drive business decisions, not just profit

About the Podcast

The Legacy & Wealth Podcast, hosted by Mitchell Clark and presented by The Standard, features conversations with entrepreneurs, executives, investors, and high-performing men who are building wealth, leadership, and legacy. Each episode explores the principles, decisions, and life experiences that help successful men create lasting impact in their businesses, families, and communities.

Timestamps

00:00 Three income streams as a physician assistant
00:51 Introduction to Jonathan Nolan
01:26 How Jonathan earns his income today
02:32 Growing up as a missionary kid
03:37 Four years of rejection before PA school acceptance
07:02 Faith, marriage, and finding his calling
10:31 Understanding the physician assistant profession
16:24 From thoracic surgery to the ICU
21:16 The business of hospitals and healthcare economics
31:49 Building a wellness clinic and preventative healthcare
45:23 Concierge medicine and the future of patient care
52:24 Functional medicine, peptides, and optimizing health
1:08:26 Building a healthcare SEO and AI marketing company
1:22:06 Balancing business, family, and faith
1:29:04 Why Jonathan joined The Standard

About The Standard
The Standard is a private membership community for high-performing men committed to growth across five pillars:

Physical

Emotional

Spiritual

Social

Financial

Learn more:
https://thestandardmen.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Three different channels that I have for making income. Number one, I'm a physician assistant, a healthcare provider. The second way is through a wellness clinic that I co-own with a physician. The third way of making income is through a essentially a healthcare-specific marketing company.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

What we would like to think, hospitals are a business and they run it very much like it. Which can be good, sometimes it can be bad, so I kind of want to talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

You know, as healthcare providers and as believers, you know, our first thing is not how do I make more money. My first thing is I'm going to do no harm and I want to treat you. I'm all for work-life balance and work. I'm not saying anything against that. But when the mentality is I want the easier gig versus I want the best for my patient, and I can do it this way without any impeding, um, that's where Welcome to the Legacy and Wealth Podcast, a show for proven high-earning men who value wealth, character, and a lasting legacy.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Brought to you by the Standard, a private membership community for high performers. My name is Mitchell Clark, and today I'm joined by fellow Standard member Jonathan Nolan. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. No worries. How is your flight in from Atlanta? As hot as it is here in Dallas? Yes, yes. The tires didn't melt, but I'm sure they were close. Yes, no worries. Well, hey, I appreciate you making the trip out here. Um for everyone that's listening here in the audience, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself by starting off with how you currently make money? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Yeah. So um I'm Jonathan Nolan. There's there's three different channels that I um have for making income. Number one, I'm a physician assistant, a healthcare provider. Um currently work at a local hospital in the ICU. Um so take care of uh critically ill, uh just very sick patients. Um the second way is through a wellness clinic that I co-own uh with a um with a physician. And um the third, uh the third way of making income is through a essentially a healthcare-specific marketing company for SEO for uh helping uh with online presence.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Okay. This will be a really fun conversation because I've been in the medical device sales uh realm for the last six or seven years or so. So I'm very well in tune with this industry, both on the wellness side, the hospital side, and everything else. So this I think this is gonna be a really fun conversation. But before we get super in depth on your area of expertise, give us a little background on how you got here, like what was childhood like, where'd you grow up, and how you eventually got to physician assistant?

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yeah, absolutely. Um it was very much a calling. Um we grew up actually in in several different countries. Um, had the uh had the blessing of having amazing parents, and we grew up uh as missionaries. So I was a missionary kid growing up, got exposure to uh a bunch of different cultures, um, several of which have a very different type of healthcare um system in place. Um and one of the countries that we lived in, India, um, got to see firsthand what essentially where we were, the complete lack of health care, you know, and the downstream effects of having no health care. So um had that exposure uh and naturally in the in the schooling system, I had a little bit more um, a little more draw to you know science and biology and that kind of stuff. Um initially was thinking uh medical school in college, um, but in in prayer, um found that the physician assistant path was really more where I was uh led to be at that time. And it had to, I had to kind of um uh once the Lord placed that on my heart, I had to still go after it because even that process of getting into PA school, um I actually applied over four years. I got 84 reject uh 83 rejections and I got one acceptance. So um, and I applied initially locally, um, and then I got to a point, especially second and third year, I was like, I'm gonna apply anywhere in the country that will have me.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Where were you applying at?

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Like where did you live? So I was living in Atlanta. In Atlanta at the time, yeah. So because I went to uh UGA for undergrad. So at first I was like, okay, I'll apply to Georgia schools. And then once I got that first year of um all rejections, um, I still prayed. And I was like, Lord, is this the path that you have for me? Um and um what I heard back was yes. So then spent the second year, and and then later towards the second year, I was like, I'm gonna apply across the country. And then the third year, for every one application that got denied, I would apply to um four other schools. Um so it just kind of became this cascading effect. And the school that ended up accepting me, um, they're like, We've never had someone apply three years in a row to us, so let's at least let's at least um interview them. Okay. So, and then um, yeah, by the Lord's grace got in.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Okay. So we went to there. Was there any specific field in medicine in particular that drew you in?

SPEAKER_01 5:00

No, not particularly. Um, because I um I I knew they had a draw to medicine um in general, but um I knew there was one particular field I didn't want to go to. Um I don't have an affinity for labor and delivery. Okay, so but I was open to everything else. Um but you know, the Lord had just got me through this four-year journey, and I didn't know what he was trying to teach me during that time. So I was trying to go into PA school. Like, Lord, I still don't know what you want me to do, so I'm just gonna come in with an open mind, yeah, pray, and then just please speak to me. Um and he he's just created the opportunities.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

No, it brings to mind if at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Yeah. Only except uh instead of the third times of charm, seems like the 83rd times of charm. So but you know, that that's an interesting thing because I think a lot of people when they're trying to find their calling in life, they they quit very early because they start meeting some resistance and immediately conclude, oh, I don't think this is where I'm being led to in life.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

But instead, you kept trying and trying over and over again. What was it that made you feel convicted that this was the route that you're supposed to go through? Like, why do this for three or four years before getting accepted?

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Oh yeah, I mean, a big part of that is is prayer. And to be completely honest, uh there was a season of drought, especially those first couple years, um, which is kind of ironic when you're in this kind of drought season in prayer where you feel like, okay, I'm sending out the signal, but not really hearing anything. Ironically, is kind of when you're the almost the closest. You kind of see it on the back end, you know, retrospectively, like, man, I was actually really close. Cause I um depended on the Lord. Secondly, is my wife. She's just a she's just um, you know, a rock in my life, um, which was really helpful. And one of her, one of her spiritual gifts is sometimes the Lord just kind of provides her with visions. And um, she had she had a vision for it. So when did you meet your wife? We met in high school. Yeah. I was we were just friends for a long time. We um yeah, just friends in high school. We were kind of in our uh network group and we went to a prayer, a prayer group uh before school started um once a week. And then um I wanted to still hang out her with her when we went to college because we went to uh at first two different schools, and then I was like, I'll hop on over to UGA and and hang out with you. And and then um, yeah, I graduated a year before her, and then so we just got married after I graduated, and then she finished her last year um with us being newlyweds. What'd she do? Um, so she was uh a teacher. Um so she was a phenomenal teacher, did great in her county kind of um she was very inspirational, just um, yeah, preached preached to the Lord, and she still is. Um she stays home with the kids now. Um, so she's a way uh way bigger saint than I am, because that is um she does a phenomenal job with a very difficult job, and she draws from her teaching background to pour into our our kids, um, which is which is rare. It's just uh she's a rare blessing.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Well, clearly faith has a big impact on your life. I growing up in the mission field, I would imagine that had a pretty big influence on you. So before we go forward into the career elements, was that do you feel like that came mostly from mom, dad, a mixture of both? Like, how did that background of being a missionary kid kid kind of feed into your belief structure at that time?

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Yeah, um, the exposure was parents for sure. Um, you know, it's really um it's a real big blessing. They're still married, they've been married um, you know, this this entire time. So having that anchoring at home is really big. So they were kind of the exposure point. Um, you know, they um um they took me to the water, um, but then I drank the water, and then the Lord was life-changing since then. So since baptism, um, you know, um my dad's a really analytical person. So he kind of had these like, okay, now if you've truly accepted the Lord, I'm gonna kind of shift how I'm gonna be instrumental in your life, because the Lord needs to speak to you on things that I can't. And so they were kind of a touch point, a um a nerve, if you may, um, into uh you know, into spirituality. Um he helped encourage me with with my growth in that.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

When you say analytical, mainly just kind of the more thoughtful element of faith expression, like theology, apologetics, all that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Yeah, he's got a doctor in ministry. So he actually was an accountant. He was the top accountant in his class, and then his senior year just before uh graduating is when he became a believer. He came to Christ then. Okay. So then he completely shifted um, you know, trajectories, went from being this high potential accountant, and he still is very high potential, um, to um going into seminary and in ministry school. So he just completely shifted his entire life um for that. So he has that analytical, statistical, strategic mind that he was able to apply um principles at just very, you know, now that I'm an adult, I see it. When I was a kid, obviously I didn't. Right. But, you know, applying, applying um, you know, basics and and instrumental aspects of, hey, this is our faith and this is um what we believe, and and basically raising me, you know, with constant exposure to the gospel um in a very strategic way that um was was well in tune with the age that I was.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Okay. So fast forward now you're you know going through PA school. How long is that? A year and a half?

SPEAKER_01 10:37

It varies per school. Um so mine was 27 months, some of them are a couple years, uh, 24 months, some are 30 months. So it really varies. And most of the variety is on your rotations, the first years.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Well, I wanted to, yeah, no, I appreciate that. I wanted to talk a little about that because my understanding, the nurse practitioner in the PA role in particular, are kind of newer innovations within the healthcare industry. So for people that aren't super familiar, you have your physicians, nurses, PAs, MPs. Where do all these people fit in this spectrum? And where specifically do you fit into this healthcare ecosystem?

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Yeah, and that's a great question. Um, and there's a lot of overlap between PAs and nurse practitioners. Um you kind of get pretty granular with that. So I'll kind of more I'll kind of more answer in like the grand scope of when you're seeing from a patient side.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Um, so so essentially you have um there's a whole line of people in healthcare. So you have techs that can help with um blood pressure, then registered nurses that can help with administering medications, starting IVs. Um and and most of my explaining this is in the context of a hospital system. Um obviously there's outpatient centers where that scope varies a little bit. Um, but nurses can't prescribe a medication. So that's kind of where we come in is as mid-level providers, APPs, however you want to say it, nurse practitioners and PAs, um, we can prescribe um medications, we can order labs, um, we can interpret, we can order imaging studies. So we have similar capabilities to the physicians. So we have a little more leaning towards the physician side. Um, we require a physician supervisor. Um, the level of supervision, there's variety between nurse practitioners and PAs, um, but that is required. And in a hospital setting, the more um the the physicians do end up having the final say in any setting, outpatient or inpatient. Right. So the physicians are like, I saw what Jonathan did and I agree with it. Or I would make this tweak, and then this is kind of the final plan based on the physician. Um in the hospital setting, um, there is some variety of the physicians do a little bit, you know, a little bit more of the you know higher risk stuff. So there's um like surgery. For example, surgery, yeah. So physician assistants can be first assist, they can they can help with it, but the surgeon is the physician um in that context. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

My exposure to this, so I used to work with intuitive surgical and inspire, um, starting into my medical device journey. And so what I saw frequently was like the nurses could kind of do anything with the patient that was outside of the body, um, but anything inside. So if there's like help with like if you're doing a gallbladder procedure, for instance, only the PA could like retract while the the surgeon was actually doing the procedure itself. Um does that is that about accurate kind of a way that I guess that is correct.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

And if there's no if there's no PA or MP in there that can do that, then you have to have a specific first assist. There are people who are credentialed that are not PAs, okay that can be a first assist. And they're typically contracted, but again, they're not nurses. They're like first assist, they go through specific trades that are not. Right. That's its own specific. If you don't have uh if you don't have access or ability to to that. So all that's to say is yes, um, because if there isn't that person to do first assist, there's another person that's qualified completely differently than a nurse to do that.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

So what's the difference between a nurse practitioner and a PA? I've always been a little confused on what exactly that differentiator is.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Yeah, and it is a changing, it is a little bit of a changing field just because nurse practitioner um, they they make programs make changes um every now and then. So some of the more granular differences are in in some states, nurse practitioners can practice under their own license, so they can practice independently. Um there is variety for that. In the state of Georgia, you still have to have a supervising physician, even though you are a practicing uh nurse practitioner there. Um and PAs, irregardless of which state, by definition, you have a supervising physician that's there. Then you can get even more granular where because PAs have to have a supervising physician varying by state, the supervising physician has to be accessible and they have to be within X number of miles, like a certain proximity to where, like if something happens within reasonable distance, they can get to there to the location of whatever's happening. And nurse practitioners don't really have that. Okay, you know, have that component. So um the big the big difference is nurse practitioners usually go through a nursing school and then go to a nurse practitioner school. And PAs, one of my PA colleagues, he actually graduated with a degree in marketing, but he finished all his science courses and he's a phenomenal PA. Yeah. Um, so he came in with all these um wild and crazy um, you know, outfits and everything. He was like, You are a very artistic type. Yes. And so I was like, and we are not. Um, but he's he's phenomenal. So you can have a different background, but nurse practitioner, you go through nursing school and then go on to um your nursing program. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Well, I'm glad you explained because I I know PA's nurse practitioners are kind of an emerging field. How long have those professions been around?

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Uh nurse practitioner longer than PA. So the PA program started really kind of back in the 70s, 80s. Um, and I do apologize, I don't know the exact year. Sure, sure. I apologize to my PA professor. We went through PA history for that. But um, it started honestly in the military, because they're like those surgeons like we gotta have extra hands. Nurse practitioner program started earlier than that, and obviously the the first OGs of medicine were physicians. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Okay. So you went to PA school, you're going through that. What has been your experience in the hospital setting? It's the hospital primarily where you're employed as a PA.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Yeah, yeah. So it's been had had a little bit of a mix. That's what's really nice about being a PA is I actually started um for a couple years in thoracic surgery and got to see inside people's heart and lungs. Yeah. Um, saw physically with my eyes, like what this looks like. Um, and you just can't that perspective and having that image in your mind. When I look at X-rays now, I'm like, I can still picture like what the actual lung tissue looks like. Right. Um, but um we had our son, and then uh a couple years in, I was like, I don't know my two-year-old. Um it was just crazy hours. So then I transitioned to the ER for about 10 years. Um I was in the ER for 10 years, and then um worked a few different a few different things um, you know, since then, worked at a pain center, worked a little bit for a national pharmacy chain that has um that has like document boxes. Um and then um we we started our wellness clinic, so got the preventative side of stuff. Um, and then most recently landed, yeah, worked in the ICU because I like the it's a great combination of cerebral, you're thinking critically through medications that are literally life-changing. This is the trajectory of how they're going to do with their wellness, uh, combined with um procedures. You know, there are some certain procedures like you have to get them to the ICU to get this procedure done so we can start dialysis as soon as possible. Okay. Um, kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 17:50

So what's your favorite part? Like throughout the time of surgery, which I totally understand, surgical yeah, the surgical field for physicians, PAs, even for cis, it is unpredictable hours, long hours. Yes. Um not always super stressful, depending on the surgery. Thoracic surgery is is stressful and long. Yes, yeah. Those were I I those were both my favorite, but my least favorite surgeries because not only because they're there the room has to be pressurized too. Like the the the guy that was doing it, um, like it wasn't like in general surgery, sometimes there's people are just walking in and out, kind of whatever, but there was like six hours dedicated, pressurized, no one's going in or out, high focused, high stakes, and uh yeah, very rewarding, but not yes, I guess fun depending on your personality. Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

The physician thought it was fun. Yeah, no, and they yeah, and they they do they're hardwired for it. They are hardwired for it, they love it. All the physicians I work for in that group absolutely love what they do, which is great. That's what you want. And I loved it while I was there.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Um but when it kind of um you do, and this it's a fairly common thread, really, in a lot of industries, but healthcare's uh healthcare is one for sure where it's like you kind of have to reprioritize because in the surgical realm, um, because you have to have on-call hours and all these metrics to in order to have access to the operating room, the hospital requires that you have certain on-call hours and you meet these certain requirements to even use their operating room. Yeah. So the combination of everything um just requires a lot of hours.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

I know you said the ICU tend to be a little bit more cerebral. Is it mainly because they're in a more of a critical state and so it required more critical problem solving to figure out how to, you know, kind of rehabilitate them and get them out?

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Um fantastic question. I think that the true answer is kind of zooming out a little bit because there's so much overlap with the ER and the ICU. Um, I think the favorite part's really just kind of the uh the variety. Um that really helped. And because the ER can very much be cerebral. You see weird stuff that's coming in. So you're trying to find out is this acid reflux or is it a heart attack? And especially is um, you know, certain demographics. As we get older, acid reflux can present as heart attack. Um and then in the ICU, you have these critically ill um patients that are in there. And then so you're just um, you know, it's depending on what they have, it's there's fortunately a ton of studies because it's your sickest population in any hospital. So there's a ton of studies, and you can you can um, you know, find what you need for that. But the combination of the procedures, keeping up with those and the dexterity and just being able to do procedures on top of the variety of okay, I go back in my mental file cabinet and thinking um just like keeping up of everything medicine. Um, so I think that's the biggest thing is not um, you know, not getting too, I guess, um focused or pigeonholed. You know, this is an aspect where niching down um was an area I found I was like, oh, this is I like the I like the variety and the broader, and like, oh, that's kind of weird, it's different from that one. So how do you treat that differently?

SPEAKER_02 21:16

Let's shift gears a little bit into the the business of running a hospital. And since we have like someone with a more insider view, I got a little bit of behind the scenes look just talking through you know different contracts for different equipment, surgical items, whatever that a hospital would contract. There's a lot of different nuances on how the business of a hospital because despite what we would like to think, hospitals are a business and they run it very much like it. Um, which can be good, sometimes it can be bad. So I kind of want to talk about the good, the bad, the ugly. The first thing I was gonna say was you know, the OR in general seemed to be the highest revenue generator. Is that necessarily true? Or from a business perspective, looking in, let's say you were the CEO of a hospital, where did you see them typically? The most return on investment from all the different hospital procedures.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Yeah, that's a really it's a complex question and full transparency. I don't know the answer to that. Chiefly because even the surgeons um don't know how much reimbursement they get. And that's by nature. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Um so it's hard to by nature because the administrators, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Not saying trying to keep it under wraps, but yes, because that's something specifically that the thoracic surgeons mentioned. They owned their own thoracic surgery group and they saw, hey, our reimbursement rates for this massive surgery, including recovery, have plummeted. Sure. They got bought out by the hospital, and then they're like, now we have no clue what the hospital's bringing in based on us. But we know it's more because the hospitals are profitable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

Well, it's interesting you say that because my behind the scenes look so for instance, with one of our implants that we had to do, we noticed that uh a couple I was in there for a couple years, and every year that the Medicare reimbursement would change, the hospital reimbursement would go up just a little bit, but the physician reimbursement would go down just a tad. And I imagine that's a pretty common tread throughout a lot of different procedures and a lot of different activities that the hospital has done for a long time. Why is that?

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Oh, it comes down to money. It just comes down to money. Um, it's a um, you know, the the hospitals are are trying to increase revenue because you got to meet demand. And there's a certain level of people, irregardless of intent, that just are not compliant with what they need to do. And that happens with people who mean well. But, you know, for example, someone who has history of congestive heart failure and they have fluid built back up in their lungs. Well, we wrote you for a prescription to prevent that, to help you get rid of that fluid. And so they had every intent, but they didn't tell anyone that they didn't have the money to go purchase that medicine. So they hadn't been taking it and then they get readmitted. Um and it was, you know, they were well intending. It wasn't they were choosing to purchase, you know, a handbag or a new phone, and oh, that money I used for the phone was for medicine. It, you know, I'm not that does happen, but that's much more rare. Right. Everybody has good intent, um, has pretty good intent with being able to do that. So the hospital has to find a way to compensate for that. Because um, on the backside, insurance companies, Medicare, Medicaid, um, they have all these metrics. So if you come back for readmission, that's on the hospital, you didn't do your part. So this next visit, you know, isn't covered or may not be covered. Okay. So they they're having to essentially, like, okay, if there's a potential for having another admission that's on us, they have to compensate for that on the business side. And then um on insurance sides and Medicare and Medicaid, they do what they can to not make payouts. Um and even to providers, you know, so that that's what some of these criteria are for. Hey, you had this patient that met this criteria, you documented everything but this one thing, and because you didn't do that, we're not gonna pay you. Yes. Um, and it's based on the provider did it, they just didn't mention it in their note because but because that wasn't mentioned, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

You know, we've had that happen a lot of times, particularly in the surgery centers where it's all the commercial insurance base. If there was any sort of documentation that was missing uh post-surgery in the application, we'd often have to make appeals for billing in order to get because I mean they'll find any reason to not because I mean I mean the insurance companies are also a business. And so if they cannot pay out for a $26,000 implant, by all means they would find a way not to do it. Which I also which I also think there's it's it's kind of a catch-22 because the way you're describing it, you know, they're not covering re-emissions, um, remissions or complications or anything like that. That would also stress that they the hospitals would at least try to prioritize good health care, like you know, you try to decrease the rate of remissions, decrease the rate of complications, yada yada. Yeah. Because they can get expensive.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

They can. And we will even, for for some of them, depending on you know, condition and medication, we'll even hand them at discharge, like physical pills, like hey, you've got heart failure, we're gonna give you your LASIKs. Here it is in hand for you to kind of prevent that because that's more cost effective. Yeah. And one thing, so um, that's kind of the important paradox to be aware of is hospital systems, and I love my hospital system, hospital systems um you know, are painted as you know, evil and and you know, you trying to game stuff. Um but they're kind of forced into this um that's easy to interpret that as you know, hospitals are evil, but you have to as a as to stay open, because we saw that at a local Atlanta hospital who's huge, Atlanta Medical Center, they just went under. And so now you've got a ton of patients that are being absorbed by other hospital systems overrunning them. Yeah. So if you can't plan for um, you know, plan for the potential of this coming up, it becomes very difficult um to do that on the business side. So, and and granted, there are extremes. There are times where like, okay, we overbuild and you know should shouldn't have. And there's there's stuff in place to um, you know, to kind of prevent that from happening. Okay. Um, and everything. So um I don't usually, I don't really hop on the train of all hospitals are are evil just because they're kind of the the you know, painted evil and and perceived as evil, but they're also in a tight corner because private healthcare insurance companies have put them in that corner. Ah and on the back end, too, I have had both sides, you know, we're we're kind of as the providers playing middle ground when I especially like, for example, at this pain center that I mentioned. We're like, hey, this this patient needs this procedure. They need this epidural, for example. And then the health insurance company says no. We get a call from the patient saying, Hey, I just got with the health insurance company. They said it's you guys that are stalling it. And we're like, no, we we want you to have it because that would be you know beneficial to you. Um so so we kind of get um, you know, as as providers, there's some times where we're kind of pinned in the middle, um, where we're kind of projected as the as the evil.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Because you're the one that has to talk to the patient because you have to deliver the bad news. Exactly. So what you're really saying is it's the insurance companies that are the bad guys.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Um not every time. There are good insurance companies that are out there. Okay. Um, you know, it's just a very complex. Um, I just don't want to make a definitive out there statement. Because there are some good insurance. It was a provocative question. Yeah. There are some good insurance companies that are out there, but I'm also not surprised that there's like one medical with Prime. I'm not surprised that there's a lot more um Christian healthcare sharing plans that are coming about because um you kind of um narrow their margin, you know, for for doing, you know, for just helping people. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Um so yeah, because I whenever I was working, you know, uh because I had a lot of experience both on the prior auth side, the the point of patient care, and then kind of billing on the back end. So I got to see who are the ones that are either making the mistakes or doing the denials, which unfortunately, one thing I've seen, the thing that really puts physicians in a tight corner is if they have a certain patient population with a certain type of insurance plan, but their office just doesn't have a good contract for it. So every every patient they would see would be like a loss to them. And so they're like, hey, I'm sorry, but we can't see you because we don't take insurance plan, you know, A, B, C, or otherwise. So I've seen a lot of patients get very angry about that. But because the physician is the face they see, yeah, you know, they don't see the insurance company or the hospital kind of help like I want to say forcing the decision, but you kind of are players. Because I've all well, and I've also seen physicians go out of business too, especially nowadays. I I was talking with um a general surgeon up in Paris, Texas, and he had ran his own practice for 40 years. Um and he's about to retire. And I even talked to him about it, he's like, I just can't, like, I he had a layoff staff at his clinic. He's like, I can't, I I can't do this anymore, or at least not on the scale that I used to do. It doesn't make me the same money. He does it now just because he enjoys it, and yeah, he could have retired many, many years ago, but he wouldn't know what to do with himself if he did.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Um, but he's just like, it's it's just you almost have to be hospital employed or work for a private equity group, unfortunately. Yep. No. Do you see a similar thing with PAs in that respect?

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Um where like the ones so there are a few PAs that own their own clinics, and that's what that is what they battle with. Because it essentially falls on the hospital system or the clinic. Um so so yes, I mean that's uh especially when you're dealing with insurance. That's why our side, um, our wellness clinic is is cash pay. Because we're like, you know, we we want this, we want it kind of for a different purpose, and we're like, I just don't want to have to, you know, deal with the insurance complexities for it with that. Um but I do have some colleagues that own their own practices and a variety of them. They, yes, they do have that as the struggle. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

Well, let's we'll pivot now over to the wellness clinic since you brought it up. So describe this. I've I've also worked kind of in that space too with the GLP1s and peptides and everything else. So I think and it's especially here in DFW, I think there's a med spa in every corner. So yes, describe your wellness clinic and kind of what you're trying to do there.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Yeah, similar. Um, so yeah, med spa category is kind of is kind of where we are. We try, so our our MO is everyone that we have in there um works or has extensive history of multiple years working in the ER. So staffing-wise, we're essentially a soft version of ER. Okay. Um and the community's kind of grasped onto that. So like an urgent care kind of Yes. Okay. Because we do, so we have some, you know, in that in that regard, we have some rapid flu and COVID tests. We can run labs. We have a contract with a couple different labs that we can um, so we can do the blood draws there and send them out to the lab. There's it's not an on-site lab, but um the the rapid stuff we can do, you know, on site, but we can do blood work to to help kind of work up, hey, what's going on here. But that also helps us provide, you know, some tailored um, you know, treatment plans for, okay, what's what's your overall goal? A lot of our people come in, you know, just um the typical one is just, you know, exhausted or wanting to kind of be up to speed on their on their health and everything. So we do um IV therapy, you know, drips and um NAD. We do um some peptides um as well. So our overall goal is just to kind of help people no matter where they are, just um kind of either if it's on the reactive side, help them get help them get better if it's within our scope, um, or on the preventative side, help them kind of stay um, you know, top of their game, you know, if they can. Because we do sometimes get, because it's um word has gotten about us being ER providers, there we do have some people who who come in and um you know, back you know, a little bit to the insurance thing, they know if I go to the ER, I'm gonna all I need is fluids. I'm gonna get this big bill for $3,000 because they have to make sure that nothing else is going on. But I get this every time or I know I ate something bad, and then they come to us and see us. But um, if we see, you know, their vials, their heart rate's crazy high, and their blood pressure is low, we're like, nope, we'll we'll help you out. But we're also you also have to go to the to the hospital.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

So if you get some, if you get a patient in there that's kind of beyond the scope of care, it's an automatic trick to the ER.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Yeah, but that's kind of the blessing. Uh, this is something where um it's it's been really neat, especially being a believer where we could help people, is we don't just turn them away. We're just like, um, if they're that ill, we get things we immediately call, you know, ambulance. We get the IV started. Um, if it's something, you know, where it's where it's not like a fluid overload situation, you know, when we examine them, it's okay, let's go ahead and get some IV fluids going for them. And we don't charge them, we're just like, we're here to help you get going. And then when we are doing a report to the ambulance crew, we're telling them, like, hey, we went ahead and just gave them like um a half a half liter bag of fluids just to kind of get things um, you know, rolling there. And that's obviously after asking them, like, you're you're good, you know, with this and everything. So it'll because we had some, we've had some people who told us they went to other places and they're like, they just turned them away and they're like, We were very, very sick, and we went to the hospital and they were like circling the drain at that time. Right. But if they hit if they were able to do something, and they understood, like, we totally get, you know, why they didn't. We shouldn't have gone there. We should have started off going to the ER. But um, you know, as healthcare providers um and as believers, you know, our our our first thing is not how do I make more money? My first thing is I'm gonna do no harm and I want to treat you. Right. Um, so we all of us and all of our staff were hardwired. How can we help you? Um, and part of that too goes into we're not gonna talk about anything extra. If something's not gonna be a benefit, there's no even there's not even a point to bring it up to you. Sure. Um, because I don't, I'm not trying to rack up anything. I'm just trying to help.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

I have a and a personal story from my background on kind of how your model fit into this. So my wife, when she was pregnant, she had terrible morning sickness. Yes, terrible morning sickness. It got to the point she was so dehydrated, she did go to the hospital once, yeah, and got an IV. Um, and it was very, very expensive. Yeah, so when it happened again, there was a place very similar to the way you were describing it. I was like, wait, it's like a hundred dollars over here. Let's just go do that. And like the experience was there because we went to the ER, she was waiting like three hours to get an IV. Yeah there, we got in, got like locked in. Shoot, I got an IV right next to her just to pass the time. Um that was my first experience with like B vitamin drip or whatever. I forgot exactly what the compound was, but um probably B complex. Yeah, it was a B complex. Well, because she was getting the same thing, because that was, I think, one of the few things. It was either that or a Zolfran that she was able, or one of the few things she could take while under pregnancy. And it helped immensely. She got that a couple of times and it was you know faster, easier. So uh describe from your perspective in all of the healthcare space, where does yours, how do you feel that specific uh like type of practicing medicine fits within the healthcare ecosystem?

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Um it's very similar to where PAs and nurse practitioners sit. Um, because we're able to do lab work, we're able to assess you, um, evaluate you and and go from there. If we have, we have, we actually have an on-site urinalysis machine. So if you say you have urinary symptoms, we'll run it. And it's not just like the dipstick where it's like a um you know, that you can get over the counter, it's like the machine and it tells us the specific numbers. We can write you the antibiotics, and we've already sent it off to the lab for cultures to make sure what we gave you actually works. So um kind of a cash pay urgent care-esque um, you know, is where we would sit, you know, if we were uh if we were to say like what's the highest level within our scope, that's kind of where we sit as far as structurally. What we see is kind of medical spa, which is probably one uh a notch below that. Sure. Um just because those those that clientele tends to not come in, you know, um, you know, super sick or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

Yeah, more aesthetics than anything.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of where we where we sit in that in that realm with our uh with our side. But it's it's worked well because a lot of our community knows as well, since we're ER providers, we have the same protocols for migraines for um pregnant patients. So we have neurologists um sending their patients over to us, like, hey, my patient's got a migraine, I'm just gonna send them your way because I don't want them to wait for four hours in the ER. We have the entire um we have the entire list of their typical medications they get, which are generally safe. And it's like if you went to the ER, you'd be getting the same thing. So come enjoy it here. And um, same for labor and delivery. They're just like, yes, please go over there. And then if they had some kind of um, you know, complication and they wanted, for example, like a repeat HCG level, um, we're open seven days a week. So they're starting to send um their patients to us on a Saturday just for a draw. So they're like, they used to send them to the ER just to draw an HCG, and then you get slapped with an ER bill because that HCG level need to be taken 72 hours after the one that they had on Wednesday, but now it just falls on a Saturday and no one's open. Yeah, so now you got this big bill because they want they want an exactly 72 hour HCG level. Right. And so now they can send to us and we for the results over to the OBGY.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

And that's what I love about your model is it it's very urgent. I mean, it's it's very you're able to get the care when you need it pretty quickly and exactly what you need up to the specific scope that you need. Um, because I've I've I mean I've gone to places like this many times for like my physicals. Um, there's one you know for shots, you know, some of the basic level stuff that I don't want to go like wait to go see my primary care who's booked out like four weeks from now just to go in there and get my tetanus shot or whatever or get re-upped on my shots.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Um a lot of these places will send you your results. So now instead of going to the primary care office, talking to them, getting the blood work, waiting for results, waiting to get a call back for them or a follow-up appointment in four months. Now you can say, I already did the blood work, here it is, during this visit on the front end. Can we just go ahead and interpret this?

SPEAKER_02 40:31

Do you have the lab work? Because I know there's some places like this that have some of the work up labs in the urgent care or within the wellness clinic, or do you have to send them off every time?

SPEAKER_01 40:42

Depending on what it is, most of them for the lab stuff, we do have to send off um for it. Um, but we do tell them we coordinate with your primary care doc. So we're not, we're not gonna serve as your primary care. Um, we're there for preventative stuff. And if you're like, if you're telling me I'm concerned about this, but my primary care um, you know, is so busy and I just want to check a homoocysteine level. We're like, okay, we can go ahead and check at homo assistine level and then um, you know, we can go over it with them, but also take that to your primary care doctor. But you kind of you can reverse the traditional um workflow of an office appointment where office appointment was had two months later, oh my goodness, um, blood works way off. But because of the having to go get the blood drawn and the results, and it was like obviously critical labs get called in and they call you about immediately, uh, which is in a few days. But if it's like, hey, we need to start, you're getting showing signs of early diabetes, you know, that can be pushed down the way some. So, but um, if you're able to get that and walk into the appointment with those, with that blood work there, then it becomes a strategy session.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

Yeah, well, because it's also about compressing the timeline to treatment too. Because I've seen a lot in healthcare where the time for diagnosis to the time of treatment, depending on what the disease state is, that can be a very strong limiter of how effective that treatment is gonna be. Like kind of an extreme example, but cancer. From diagnosis to treatment, you theoretically want it immediately, but that's not the case. You gotta go get it, send it to the labs, talk with this specialist, this specialist, all of whom are booked out month, two months in advance, like in advance while that cancer is growing, or even something just like cardiovascular disease, right? You're not unless you somehow just changed your entire diet and exercise routine, all of a sudden, you're probably not getting better. In the meantime, your condition is getting worse. Yeah. And I, it seems to me like this is definitely I've seen this a lot in like Walgreens and CVS's, where beyond just the pharmacy, now they have kind of like an off the side kind of similar kind of urgent care. Like I just went and got like my ears cleaned at like a Walgreens. Yeah. Right. Like, because my first instinct was I was gonna reach out to an ENT. But when I did, they're like, oh yeah, they have something in like three weeks. I was like, all right, let me call, let me call the Walgreens. Walgreens. Yeah. And they got it. Yeah, 8 a.m. tomorrow, come and get your ears clean for something simple as that. Now, I really do feel like that's an emerging trend in healthcare. Kind of these like simpler, low complexity procedures that can be done relatively quickly with higher turnover. So you can knock out patient after patient after patient because it's it's not a surgery, it's not cancer, it's not these things.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Yeah, I think um I think that is I think that is helpful. And I I think that that would be a good trend to go towards um as long as the mindset um remains um, you know, of we're gonna do these these lower risk procedures. Because even with cleaning out ears, there is a risk of you know rupturing an eardrum. Right. Um so there's risk, but generally that's also like you can get an ear cleaning device at home. So it's it's it's also something like okay, if you can do at home, then you know, a Walgreens or CVS can do that. And that's well within the scope of you know what they can do with everything. So I think. that that's a yeah I think that that's a a good trend because what that does is it helps decompress the hospital systems and the emergency departments. Um because because when I was there we'd have a waiting room third full of like 30 people and then you're like, okay, we've got two chest pain and we've got six sore throats. But of those sore throats is one strep throat that's like so large that it's block it could be blocking their airway and they could pass out at any time. You don't know. And then most of them are like oh it's it's COVID. Sure. So it's it can be hard to do that. So if you've got um and and and a lot of patients and families are are very sparse. So if they know that like hey this is available to me at Walgreens I just go get tested over there because yes I feel like garbage but I can swallow you know I can breathe and get your prednisone shot and you just rock and roll. And you could do that and it just helps decompress the emergency side of stuff. But the caveat to that is um is is insurance. You know the the ER is different and utilized um a good bit because you're seen and you're treated and the bill comes after but with CVS Walgreens everything else you do the insurance and they tell you up front hey you're not insured so it's going to be $200 sure beforehand um or your copay is this and they've they're taking payment up front versus on the back end.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

So let me ask you about this um I've noticed a rise also in concierge medicine which almost seems kind of what you're doing since a lot of it is cash pay. What's your take on that and where do you see the future of that in the healthcare ecosystem?

SPEAKER_01 45:37

It can be helpful. Concierge is such a broad such a broad term um under the right context and in the right environment it can be very helpful. And uh you if you are a concierge provider who's an excellent diagnostician you could diagnose um pretty well then I think that that would be helpful too and basically just knowing or feeling comfortable with I don't know but I don't look how you I don't like the way that you look you know appropriately escalating to a a higher level of care is kind of where a lot of the argument is in the space. So it's really good for you know for simple stuff. And there are some people um I've come across so so I I know a concierge physician and he's excellent. He is phenomenal with his patients and he is like the the prime example of what I'm thinking of like if all concierge medicine was like you I I you've got my backing 100%. He takes really good care he knows when they so they have his phone number but when he calls he was he can remember instantly like the last conversation we had was for the sore throat and it was tested positive for strep. And here we are two weeks out okay let's see what's going on here. So in in that regard um it can be really really helpful. But on the flip side um you can have concierge medicine um where they're not as familiar of what could be lurking underneath and they kind of minimize you know some of the stuff that's there. So then you do have this growing cancer um and you know they they they don't know and and not not to say that everybody you know sometimes that can be missed that can happen to any provider that's there. But I think the intent behind it is also very important because this this excellent one that I have in mind, he has an incredible work ethic and his intent behind it is I didn't want I saw that my patient's care was being impeded because I was getting so many denials with insurance that I wanted I want to be able to tell them we need to do this and we can just do it. And it's included with their fee versus I want to I want to be able to work from home. I want a better home life balance I don't really want to you know put forth the effort in that and I'm all for work life balance and and working from home not saying anything against that. But when the mentality is I want the easier gig sure versus I want the best for my patient and I can do it this way without any um impeding um that's where the lines kind of get hairy.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

You know one thing I was going to say too what what from your perspective because the word concierge medicine gets thrown around out there but I've actually seen a lot of different interpretations of what that is what to you is concierge medicine?

SPEAKER_01 48:39

I'm gonna just describe the the epitome of the excellent one. So he has he has an office um it's there's not standing office hours he basically has a certain he's like my cap of what I can comfortably treat well is this number of patients. You have my phone number you have unlimited access to me all year um when you're um active on your um um payment and um if you if we need to schedule an appointment I'll if I'm available I'll come I'll we can meet at the office or I'll do a home visit. Meeting at the office he doesn't live far from there he's like that's included um but if you want me to come to your home it's an extra hundred dollars I'll come to your home and evaluate you there. Right. So um but he he lays like if if if it meets a certain threshold and his threshold is fairly low. Okay. And he's like I um the his lowest threshold is hey let me do a FaceTime. Let me actually lay eyes I want to see like how you're breathing like how like is this stuffy or am I hearing like fluid buildup in your lungs? What am I hearing on the phone here? And then the next level is like ah I need to see you face to face. Like I'm not um you know liking that. And and he does tell them like when you sign on my requirement is you get a pulse oximeter, you get a blood pressure um cuff, you get a temperature because I want you to tell me your vital signs. Okay. It's not just a blanket phone conversation. So he's doing um you know that he's doing everything how I like to see concierge medicine done um you know with stuff.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

Is it only for rich people or have you seen like I I've also heard some people say it's an alternative for people that can't really afford the insurance sometimes that might be the best route they have. Because you would imagine with insurance, oh like everything's covered but not everything isn't covered. Even if it is there's copay I've seen a lot of people pay more for their copay and deductibles for very basic stuff than they would be just going to an urgent care and paying $100 for this or that. So because you throw these these these numbers like $100 here $50 here $200 here which sounds like a lot but in the grand scheme of things in the medical world that's nothing. Yeah. That's nothing at all.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

Yeah and part of it's like how you see it too because a lot of people say oh my copay for the ER is the cheapest is $50. But that's your upfront costs. And then you come back two months later and then you get the $3,000 bill.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Right.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

So the answer to the original question is yes and no. It was I think originally built out for wealthy people just to kind of have you know just more convenient access and it'd be great to hey I'm traveling and I'd love to just call my physician and just kind of see hey what's potentially going on here. But a lot like this one that I'm talking about, most of his patients could not afford the insurance. So um so he hit like um he he made his retainer um it's annual and he just charges them a low in the concierge medicine realm um annual fee. And um oftentimes it ends up being cheaper than you know two a couple months of health insurance. So that's kind of his area. And then there are a hundred percent you know for sure you know some concierge providers that have less but they're you know for more higher SES um you know ICP ideal customer profile okay is is you know kind of there. So you have the full spectrum of of you know what's going on there.

SPEAKER_02 52:07

Do you see the this specific niche of medicine growing in the next couple of decades? What do you see the future as far as like different niches you see in the industry and what do you think what do you think is gonna be like the future of medicine and then what do you think is going to start kind of decreasing?

SPEAKER_01 52:24

Yeah uh that's a great question. Um so I think there's a few things that have to be ironed out because these medical spas are a component of the future. Um but because of the growth in the f in the industry um there's there's a lot of bad apples. Uh good apples stand out but it's not a you know it's not a matter of a couple days. You know it's in our time since being open for us um we have seen six clinics open and close within that span of time. Not not saying that they were bad apples, but it was there's just several industry specific things you need to know and understand cash grab.

SPEAKER_02 53:13

Yeah. There's actual work to be done in this space.

SPEAKER_01 53:15

And marketing is one of them. That's why I built the the third thing. So um but once we kind of iron out because I think there's some things down the pipeline for regulation to help to help that just because unfortunately it's in the area of regulation there's a lot of reactivity not preventative so there have unfortunately been some bad outcomes for some people that come in to these clinics um and just had really bad outcomes which leads to the states responding to hey this is not an okay you know way to kind of set this up so once we kind of have that ironed out is kind of the context of the answer. Okay. Um so because you know these these med spas um I think are going to be um on the rise and and hopefully with a lot of good apples um that are there because they're really um doing a good bit on the preventative side of stuff there's there's some growth in functional medicine um which there's some overlap with concierge and functional medicine what is functional I've heard that said a few times is that an actual specialty that the MDs can go down what is functional medicine?

SPEAKER_02 54:29

How would you define that?

SPEAKER_01 54:30

Yeah so um functional medicine at its core is is essentially a a physician it's not an official degree there are programs where you can go to become certified in functional medicine but it's not like a medical school functional medicine or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02 54:46

It's not like something you get like a residency and fellowship in functional medicine. Okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 54:50

Yeah you basically decide hey I want to kind of I want to go into this and and look more into this because because the root of functional medicine is great. It is what is the root cause of why you're having this so a prime um low-hanging fruit of an example is is blood pressure you know um a big um blood pressure is a a big thing and there's you know um genetics that are that can be involved uh but you have a 20-year-old that's got this really high blood pressure and their labs look fine but they checked you know a CBC and a chemistry like a couple things and that looks fine. It's like oh I'm gonna start you on you know this blood pressure medicine. A functional medicine doc's going to say hey as we're talking as we're going over like your diet and exercise regimen to help lower this blood pressure um I want to do a little bit more workup to see what's going on here because sometimes you can check what's called a homocysteine level um and that's a large protein that kind of scrapes inside you know inside an artery. It wasn't broken down properly. And so that can cause some high blood pressure based on inflammation of the artery from it being scraped. So you know you got a 20 year old with high blood pressure and um genetics are not a role let's just say that no one their family like no one has a history of this in my family and my blood pressure is high. You check a homocysteine level and that's elevated it's like oh well let's get that homocysteine level down and then um and then see if that helps with your blood pressure. The few times that I've had that happen we got the homocysteine level down and uh their blood pressure improved that was along with diet and exercise you know diet does play a role and that's something really big in the functional medicine space right now big conversation because and I and I agree with it the true first version of medicine is food.

SPEAKER_02 56:40

And our diets um you know our diets have changed a lot even compared to you know just a few years ago some for the good some for the bad right well I you know I work in the sleep diagnostic space so sleep's a very important world that I live in and one of my best friends he's a director at a fitness studio and so you know I was talking with him about it it's like if you have your sleep on track your diet on track and your fitness on track you could solve like 90% of the world's like health problems just by getting those three dialed in and locked in. So that's why I I personally love this in more preventative measure of trying to you're not trying to treat them when they're sick. You're trying to keep healthy but people that are on the verge of not being healthy and optimizing not just their health but their performance too. Because I think it's I think the the thing that always bothered me with medicine is it's always oriented on the really sick but there's not really a lot of talk about how do we like optimize the human performance? How do you take medication that make you think better, perform better, you know, lift more weights in the gym think more because the on the one hand there's getting sicker but then there's getting like to baseline and then there's like can we get above baseline? Can we get better? Can we get smarter? Can we get those are the areas that really really excite me which I mean this kind of goes the next topic you know we got like peptides and GOP1s and all these different drugs that are entering the market. Where do you see these new drugs coming in and help do you think they're good? Do you think they're bad do you think it's nuanced? I think it's nuanced but yeah what's your opinion on it?

SPEAKER_01 58:16

Yeah there's a lot of that's a very hot topic in medicine right now um especially with companies like um Lily and Novo kind of bringing GLPs um kind of to the forefront with that. I will say before I kind of hop into this answer um your your gym buddy is is spot on I agree with that because function there is no with with a lot of biohackers and people that are trying to do XYZ um uh biohacking there is um exercise is the greatest by far compared to anything else including you know several hundred thousand dollar you know stem cell transplants and all that stuff so I uh completely agree with that so I just want to say that before um I I moved on so by by nature peptides are just branches of amino acids and we make them um we make them already their safety profiles tend to be more safe than a lot of other medications so we see the kind of nasty dirty stuff um in the media because if um if something's made or produced incorrectly it can have bad outcomes um if it's used incorrectly like if for some aglutide for example if you're supposed to do two milligrams but you accidentally injected yourself with five then you're gonna have some very uncomfortable symptoms and you know probably need to get checked out. So right now it's um it's nuanced is the official is kind of the official policy because there's we've got the GLPs that have human trials and we have a lot of other peptides that are animal trials. There are even some that have um FDA approval they're just not being heavily publicized. Like what? So T alpha 10 alpha one they went through clinical trial they're FDA approved they're bought up and made by a pharmaceutical company I can't remember which one a couple things um I'd have to look it up specifically to remember but um liver something with liver um and some um some autoimmune some autoimmune disease I'd have to look into so like real disease treatment. Yes and they they compared it to another medication and then the margins on the other medication are just so much bigger. So it was purchased and shelved but thymus enalpha one's fantastic so the thymus gland is something that we have you know as we're kids and they they uh when we're kids we tend to heal um you know pretty well for the most part you know in the in the healthy population pretty well from it and a big part of that is the thymus gland. Um when you get a chest sexy of a child you can see it sitting on there but as we're adults it kind of shrinks down. But you get some of that T alpha 1 peptide um into your circulation and you're still making it as an adult but you just get a little extra um it has been shown in multiple um studies and the FDA study with what they were what they were um testing it for to have improvement and um it can help with like autoimmune uh systems it can help with like long haul COVID um you know so there's so there's several things it it can help with. Okay. I will say a good a good caveat before we we dig too much further into the peptides is um peptides are the most you will um the biggest benefit whether subjective or objective that that is recognized tend to be when your hormones are optimized. If your hormone like so if you're a male and your testosterone's down um and you take BPC 157 for recovery someone whose testosterone's in a good level is going to feel those effects more so than those who are not okay so you can almost do that as an indirect test of like hey I have this coming up I'm or I did this and I'm sore okay let's try BPC 157 um and like oh it helped a little bit but not not anything crazy. I was like oh well let me check your hormones and it's like oh your testosterone is like 200. So many see about getting help with that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:44

You know that's a that's another hot topic that comes out with TRT, which is also becoming popularized a bit more where it's like what exactly is a normal healthy testosterone balance because you hear a lot of numbers thrown around what's your philosophy when it comes to if you're in the 200s because my understanding is once you hop on that's pretty much a forever game like you're pretty much on TRT for the rest of your life. Are there any other things you would try first to bring it back to baseline before hopping immediately on the hormones anything that works or yeah exercise is number one that works.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

Yeah big surprise. And uh testosterone is the most potent anti-inflammatory is a fantastic antidepressant and exercise helps with increasing testosterone and sleep. And sleep and a good diet funny enough yes the whole three the whole trifecta sure um is there. No I will say um on the testosterone front it depends on what you're taking the testosterone for. So going into because there's there's several things so I'll what I'm gonna answer on is chiefly just kind of generalized low T, not due to any other reason. Because you can have there are some people that are on testosterone because for example they had a a a tumor or a mass in their pituitary glands this little P-sized um gland in your brain they had to take it out so now you're not getting any signals to make more testosterone. So that's you can't help that you got to be on testosterone. Right. The other caveat that I'll say too is that being on there forever assuming this population I was talking about where it's like low testosterone not secondary to one of those other primary reasons is if you want to feel if you if you experience the benefits I can push harder in the gym I've got more um stamina I can just I can do an ultra marathon now when I had to skip the last few um I feel much more mental clarity my recovery time is a lot less um if you want to continue those then you stay on testosterone so if you stop then your testosterone levels will will go down again. So that's that's chiefly the big component of once you start you have to be on it because um uh you're you're inputting more testosterone to get it to this level but on your own you're at this level and if you get on if you get on it and don't take something to preserve your own testosterone formation with like HCG then if you're on testosterone when you come if you come off instead of coming back to this level you're coming down even lower because you're not making your own testosterone you you came across something outside your body that was giving you the testosterone um you know to to help with that so it's it's a it's a big um it's a big area um of what's going on but it's not something where you have to you don't necessarily have to be on it um or you'll have like a how do you how do you word that you don't have to like it's life Changing in the aspect of your um inflammation, your recovery, and all those things we talked about.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:06

It's the main hormone.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:07

Yeah, exactly. But it's not like a blood pressure medicine where like if you don't take it, you're gonna your blood pressure is gonna go crazy high and you're gonna stroke out. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:14

Well, I was gonna ask you because if it's not from like one of those other three factors, so let's say they're like it's low, but not like crazy. Let's say like in the 300s, are there any natural remedies? There's I wouldn't call it natural, but there's enclomophene. There's also if you go into GNC, there's like a bunch of you know test boosters. Yeah. Test booster, ashwagonda, all this sort of stuff, which I don't know if any of that stuff taken, like if you're in the low, like borderline, like 300, where you want to try to bring it up to like 400 or 500, if some of those things work, if those are even worth trying. Or it's pretty much like if you're if these interventions don't work, then you're gonna need to have testosterone replacement. Can those be a good in-between?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:56

Um, they can. Um, part of it's just kind of checking with that and seeing, hey, is this working for me? Because it works for a lot of people. The biggest one, I the biggest ones I would say would be like zinc and vitamin D. Okay. So, yes, ashwagana can help. Um, ashwagon is probably a little bit better at helping you sleep, unless you're the few percentage of people where it makes you gives you more energy. But if you get more energy, you just go to the gym. There you go. Turn it off. Um, so um, but vitamin D and zinc are kind of precursors. Um, so if those are, and that's something they usually check, is um, okay, so your testosterone's yeah, 300, but your zinc and your vitamin D are also really low. Let's get those better too. And then um, because they're they're they're pre-testosterone, they're part of the ingredients to help make testosterone. So if you're low on the ingredients, then you're not gonna be able to make enough supply um for it. Um between that and exercise, you can bump yourself uh, you know, a couple or a few hundred uh points, you know, on the testosterone. So that can help. So if you're trying to get to um, but if you're trying to get to like 700 and 1200, it's pretty difficult to get there without um what's called exogenous or you know, testosterone. Sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:13

So let's move on to the other topic, which is you have your third venture, which is this marketing gig that you have.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:19

So tell us a little bit about that and then what made you want to get into that space? Because it sounds like you're plenty Brizzy already.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:25

So well, I have the again, I have the blessing of um a solid team. Um, so they so they really help, they really help with that. Um with kind of being able to um to kind of orchestrate that. And we have multiple mid-levels, we have several providers that are helping with that. So I co-own it, but we have several providers that are helping us, you know, with that. So um that helps. But what I found in that gap is we were first starting, you know, as a startup, you're trying to find out, okay, this is this is great. We want to do this for the community, but you know, how do you get yourself out there um with doing that? So we were pouring money into marketing. And so we initially poured it into kind of everywhere. Paid ads, uh, poured our time into several different social media channels, um, and then paid a SEO company, search engine optimization company, to help with the organic. So the paid ad, the the theory uh or the strategy was let's do paid ads now so we can generate revenue now, with the plan of the SEO developing our organic growth afterwards. Okay. Um, so that you can continue your growth trajectory with the revenue, um, but it's gonna take you know a little of both, with the goal of scaling down on the paid ads because the organic growth has kind of taken off.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:44

So you're basically using the paid ads as the kind of the callus or the accelerant, but then once the organic elements are kind of taking place and are locked in, that'll eventually kind of maintain the growth afterwards. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

Okay And that's and that's where we are. So what I found though was, and why um you know started this is we used a company that um delayed our organic growth with the SEO. And I found that a big reason for that is there's this gap between medical talk, you know, a provider trying to say, hey, I can help you with this. Um and the marketing people not knowing that sure, they know medical talk because they have other companies, but not really having a deep understanding of you know what is actually taking place um with this. So this gap led to basically we were hurting ourselves with that company with their strategy that they were using for our organic growth. And then I was catching on with, hey, Google's kind of changed how they see these things. Um, and then they were applying old tactics, like there was a big shift in how they changed things back in 2018, and then obviously now with AI, there's another big shift. Um, so they were applying 2015 SEO tactics, and here we are in 2020, right? Um, which is very, a very different tactic. So they were actually hurting us uh in the long run. So I am uh tired of shelling out money for for people saying they knew what they were doing. And I I even told them, I was like, I know you're gonna promise the world and not deliver. That rarely happens. Um, but uh but if you say you know what you're doing in the healthcare space, I, you know, to a degree, I expect some kind of baseline knowledge. But when I kind of saw the back end of that gap um of medical talk, how does that translate to what people are actually searching? Um then um that's where kind of a disconnect was. So then I just kind of took over at myself and I was and I said, I'm just gonna use my own clinic as a test kitchen. So then our metrics started improving, and then a couple years ago, we we basically stopped um you know, paid ads because we we reached this break-even, and then our organic took over. So I was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna like decrease our paid ads um amount and then just kind of shell it into um, you know, more of the organic growth um kind of efforts with the SEO there. Um and then there's another shift, obviously, with these, um with AI, you know, for doing that. And a lot of these SEO, this is part that that's kind of a little bit different. I was talking to a couple of them, can I still call a couple just to kind of see, okay, what's your what's your strategy and everything? A lot of the SEO companies are seeing AI as a competitor, but it's really a tool. So, um, but you just have to dig yourself a most. So, yes, there's an AI thing, there's an AI software that can help with you saving some time. Um, but especially in healthcare, which is the most the it's the highest regulated um industry for Google. Um, so it it is the highest score for what they see because they have this back-end term, YMYL, your money, your life. If it's affecting your money or affecting your life, it's highly regulated. Healthcare affects both. Right. Um, and and you can have bad outcomes from it. So, so um essentially um I use AI as a tool. And um, with this third company, I just help with navigating, hey, you need a solid base of how the internet sees you. And then how the internet sees you depends on the traffic it's gonna send you. So, sure, with Google, um, and Google's still a huge component of that, but also now it's when people are talking with Chat GPT or Claude, are you coming up? Um, this past week we had eight people who came in our clinic that we had no idea, and they had a chat with either ChatGPT Claude or Perplexity, and they recommended us because we have authority in our space, we're experts, we have experience, um, and we have trustworthiness.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:02

Is there a way to prioritize yourself on these AI systems? Like, I know with like Google and Meta, like there's there's a certain pathway of which you can get like priority traction there. Does that pathway exist for Claude or Chat GBT or s or Gemini or any of these other AI systems?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:22

Um, yeah, it depends. It depends on which one. Um the the foundation of how you are set up online um and good foundational SEO is still what's being drawn from the AI chatbots. Now, what's huge, and I'll tell people, and this is this is part of why I tell um people in uh this company, Directional Health, is if you're already making social media stuff uh content, go ahead and just put it in YouTube Shorts because YouTube Shorts is owned by Google. Guess who Gemini pulls from? So if you have a website um and then you have all this content, and then you have this YouTube short which links back to your blog about this, and not many people are reading blogs, but you're providing authority to your page, right? Um, and then you have a YouTube short, then it's gonna scrub that. It's like, oh, you've got this, this, this, and this, and YouTube short, then Gemini is gonna recommend you. Um, and then so the content production is important on where it is, you know. Um, another thing I tell people is if they are able to, a lot of a lot of these chatbot, um, a lot of these like uh chat GPT Claude, um, I make an unlinked page on my website um that's a um L uh LLMS or dot TXT, because that's like what the chatbots on the back end look for. It just makes it very easy for them to scrub. You just make a landing page with the description of what you do. Um, and then it doesn't have to be attached to your website, so it doesn't have to be like pretty or anything, but it makes a great spot for basically a pen of when they do this, you know, fraction of a second search. Oh, this one's coming up here. Right. Um, and then they have that page. So it just makes it easier. Um, like if you're in a room full of people, it makes it to where your hand's raised.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:19

Um so you primarily started this using your own comp or your own clinic essentially as kind of the testing grounds for that. How did you find other like how many customers do you have right now that you're kind of leveraging this skill set on?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:31

Uh right now it's a couple. Um because I'm pretty um this is the the wellness clinic that we have is to help the community. We wanted to intentionally price it to where if you need help, we want to help you. Right. Um that's what I love about owning it is if if my nursing staff is saying, like, hey, they don't have like 10 cents to their name since we own it um and we report to ourselves, we're like, that's on us. Just let's help you with that. This is this is more because my ICP is really like clinics that are making 1.5 million plus in revenue. Um, this is more kind of my premium offer for it. So I just have like a couple right now because I talk to each one. And I just want to make sure that I'm setting the right expectations. Like, hey, just so you know, um, it may look like on your end, I'm I'm very open and transparent about what I change and what I do on the platform because I want transparency. I didn't get that with my previous um company. But there's also so much more that goes into that, um to, especially in healthcare, to um come up on there. For example, um what with AI coming up, what Google has done to fight just a bunch of, and healthcare is a realm where it's done. You plug into Chat GPT, write me a blog about peptides. It'll write the blog. You have Northware, you don't even know, it's likely hallucinating because it still does a lot in the healthcare realm. Um, and then you just copy paste that into a blog to get more viewers. Right. So Google's like, our the content skyrocketed. So now they've uh it was part of the earlier um search stuff, but now it's an integral part um, you know, since 2025. It's uh HCU, it's helpful content utilization. Is what you're actually posting helpful? Is it um or is it just kind of jargon? Has it actually been verified, validated? Um and um is it from a trustworthy, you know, individual? So in healthcare, it's I wrote this blog as a PA or uh MD if my partner did. Um and we we wrote this blog, re-reviewed it. So on on the um LLMs and Google side, it's like, okay, so they have really good um HCU, so we're going to um likely show them to people when they ask, versus versus just a blog posted by, you know, um someone who doesn't have authority in the space. And the reason I say I mentioned that, because that's one example, is one of the things we do with this is and have phone and have conversations with an actual provider, I can say, I can see in your industry with what you're doing that what is being searched for is people looking for um IV therapy. Can you, in your words, as the clinician for this clinic, tell me what is IV therapy? Yeah. So I do a full interview. So I have audio or visual um, you know, content, but then we can write an entire content series based on that because it's as you, the clinician, um, you know, making that content for it. But uh, I'm also a provider too, so I know that time is something that you don't have a luxury for. So call me when you're on the way into work, when you're on the way to your clinic, I'll knock out the interview, I'll generate the content to do that. So now you have high trustworthy content um, you know, that Google sees, I'm aware of, and then we're making sure that it's compliant on the healthcare regulatory side, but we're also making sure that Google's actually gonna be seeing everything the way that it needs to be seen.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:10

So let me ask you this if can you grow just by the SEO optimization yourself or by itself, or do you have to run the ads just to get it off the ground and to get the exposure?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:21

You can grow SEO all on its own. You don't have to put any money in paid ads. The reason we did that strategy is SEO um does take time to grow. So it took us a solid eight months to a year before we started seeing the traffic picking up. Okay. Um, and that was even with the cruddy company. Right. And then that traffic grew even more once I started doing it myself. But it took time. So our thing was, or our strategy was okay, if I'm seeing this revenue coming in eight in a year, then I need to have renew revenue generated now. So now I have ads. And that's a whole other strategy because I do ads as well as part of my um service. And um, you know, legit script certification is required for anything that needs a prescription. Sure. So you got to get legit script certified for any telehealth platform, anything doing online. Yep, yep. Yeah. So if you're not doing uh prescription based, then that's fine. Um, but if you're doing so, if you're doing GLPs, then you gotta have a landing page that's got to adhere to their to legit scripts certification requirements, you get it certified. Then Google will say, okay, now you can do ads on this because you've um because you have your legit script certification.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:33

Are there other things besides legit script that they could use?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:36

There are, there's another one. The the problem, I forget what it's called, and the main reason I don't really focus much on that one is legit script is the gold standard, it's the only one that Google will allow. Okay. Um, Meta also is fine with um legit script certification, but those are two different strategies too, because Facebook, it doesn't matter if you're legit script certified, they're not gonna push GLPs, they just have a totally different um the way that they see and interpret healthcare. Yes, yeah. Yeah. So it's yeah, very different.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:06

Well, man, you got a lot on your plate. You're doing all these different things. You're so you're working as a PA of the hospital, you have this wellness clinic that you're helping the community, and you have this consulting service and managing service for helping people get their clinics off the ground. Of all three of them, do you feel like you spend a pretty equal amount of time? Like, how do you balance all this?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:24

Well, um again, the the the big blessing is having great staff. So for the wellness clinic, um it's there's a lot of administrative stuff. It's the SEO. There's some SEO stuff with that, writing the blogs, the content. Um, and then if there's something that comes up that that needs my attention, um I I have my partner uh is an MD and he's our chief medical officer. So he does a lot on that realm with covering, hey, there's um a medical question or there's some concern that someone may have, um he's on it. And his number is actually per state regulation, his number is actually public on our website. Okay. So people can go straight, like we're not trying to limit access. So you can go, you know, ask him. So the way that we have it structured um allows it to where um a lot of the questions that come through are filtered by my management staff and my CMO, and if they can't answer it, typically business associated stuff, I'm answering that. So the time commitment used to be hugely huge and tremendous, but we're at the phase now where I've got a great strong um nurse manager um and we've kind of delegated the uh the roles that are there. So still involved um uh a decent amount, but it's not as heavy as you uh it's not as heavy as you would think. Okay. You've kind of automated a lot of this stuff at this point, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then and that's the beauty of AI. Um, and then uh the hospital, um, very, very good blessing with this position um in the ICU uh full time is six shifts every two weeks. So three shifts a week, three 12 hour shifts a week. I can give my undivided attention because anything that comes up on the business side at the wellness clinic, I can usually answer before after. I honestly I do have meetings at five o'clock in the morning on my way in. Yeah. Um, you know, on the way in there. Um so so those kind of go pretty cohesively. Um, and that's why I made the uh directional health um, you know, kind of more premium, because I want to give undivided attention. Um and so I'm able to kind of focus and get this content, you know, specifically to these um practitioners because the whole goal, the whole goal is, you know, kind of growth and and and that's why I interview everybody too, because if I talk to them and talk to the uh medical staff and the owner, and I don't get a sense that you know we're aligned, because um my our our first model with my clinic is we just take care of patients regardless of the back end dollars and cents. Um which um has made it to where it takes us a lot longer, um, you know, with business side stuff. Um, but we take care of people first. So if I get a sense that that's not really even within their scope of their ethos, then then I just, you know, we may not be as as aligned as as we need to be. So I I talk to everybody for it. So um, so um and and and really the biggest, the the two bigger answers of going into the question of how to balance it. Um number one is just the Lord, you know, we uh I try to pray as much as I can. So um it's interesting in any kind of business, um, except for the SEU. Um time will help kind of iron out a lot of things. Um so I just I kind of um pray to the Lord, like, Lord, how do I, how do I need to tackle this? Is this something, you know, you you tell me, is this something that I need to or not? Um and and it's it's pretty it's pretty amazing. The power of prayer is is is pretty uh pretty powerful because there have been times where I'm like, oh, this one thing that was brought to my attention um is kind of lower on my you know my my mental scale of of where it is, but then I pray about it and then the Lord just kind of popped it up to spot number one. And then so then I go to then I go to um you know pursue that, and then it just you know ends up bleeding to um you know something unique and it was clearly you know from the from the Lord. So an example is you know, I got a message um from my nurse manager saying, hey, um, you know, so and so is um, you know, asking for you know sponsorship for she was like a chew leader or something. So it was kind of like, yes, I'll I'll get to it, but um I have several big lovers I need to pull before I kind of fill out that paperwork. Um but then I prayed about it and then I ended up calling them and they're like, oh, this would be helpful because a family member of mine just got in some kind of accident, and exactly what we need is exactly what we were gonna give them. So it bumped up their timeline to, you know, to help them. And only the Lord can orchestrate that. Sure. Um, and then the second one's my wife. She's the the main calendar. Um she she is so she helps kind of keep you on track with all the things that are going on. Oh yeah. As you can tell, I'm unmedicated and I have ADD. So so um anytime someone asks, like, you know, can you do this or participate in this? Um, I just I just say, you know, Mary, can you can you can you double check? Um cuz because um this is going on getting into ADD realm, going off topic. Um spent a long time doing the grind, you know, um, and uh saw saw you and you and Jay talking about it in the last podcast too. Um, yeah, I decided a few years ago just to, you know, reprioritize family. So good for you. Yeah. So I have her do the schedule on purpose. I don't try to delay responses or anything, but I gotta pray first. And then I gotta talk to her. And if she's like, um, you can do that, but you know, uh Asher's got, you know, this thing coming up. I was like, no, I'm gonna go go to Asher's thing. That's okay. Um, but she also prays too, because you know, sometimes it's, you know, you can do that, you know, we have this going on, but um, you know, I kind of get a sense that the Lord really wants you to go, you know, go to do that. And usually the Lord works in something, you know, when we do that. Sounds like you find yourself a gem. So oh, she's amazing. I don't deserve her. Um, you know, and I did before. We're gonna clip that and sent that to her. Yeah, I do not, I don't deserve her at all. So she is, she is a gem.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:57

Well, the one of the last questions I wanted to ask you too, with everything that's going on, what made you join the standard and how long have you been in it for?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:04

Um, I just reached a year this month. Okay. Um, so last June of 25 is when I joined. Um, you know, I wanted to um uh I wanted to get in with a network of people who kind of understood, you know, understood our our um what we're what we're going through. You know, uh there's not many people, especially in my existing network, that were um that are understanding, they see kind of the they see the duck above the water, but not what's going on, you know, underneath the water. Um so um being paired up with people who are um farther ahead, uh that are with people who are at a different stage in business. Um you can say better than me.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:54

That's fine. I say it all the time. Everybody is.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:57

No, like I barely like this was like this was like um oh, this is your threshold. I like barely was above it. But but it was but it but it was it's it's been great. Um, you know, just having people who kind of understand, you know, kind of what you're going through and can provide advice of like, hey, kind of when we hit this level, this is what we noticed and and we shifted um that was really helpful, you know, helpful for us. So um, and I had I had earlier that year in April, I had gone to Alex Hormozy's conference. Yeah so Alex Hormozy um is great. I will say, so Alex Hormozy and Cody Sanchez and Dan Martel, um, I like getting input from all of them. Um the one thing um I try to I try to they're excellent examples um in a lot of things in in ads and everything. The one thing I the one thing I think would I say is like, hey, this is just a little bit different. Um I started implementing some of the stuff that Alex said and it helped us on the business side. But where it hurt was on the the where it hurt was I didn't feel the fulfillment as much on the patient side. So in business, we talk about, you know, what's our opportunity cost, what's our time cost? Well, instead of applying those terms to business, why don't we apply it to spirituality? So you want to respond very quickly to something for a good business output. But and I agree with that, speed, speed is great. But that's also why I started incorporating prayer because I pray and the Lord's like, no, you need to respond to this. Um and it's usually not a business, you know, usually not a business decision. So it's usually sorry, it's um gratitude has been a uh instrumental part of these past uh past couple years. So um being able to um see and help help people to where we uh we had the uh position that the Lord puts us in in order to help people. Uh I was seeing that when I was implementing the business stuff, we were kind of losing that. Yeah. And so um I didn't want to. So we'd be at a different position, I think, if I uh adhered to a hundred percent of the um advice that we got, but it's not worth the opportunity cost on the spiritual side.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:34

Yeah. No, and one thing I like about the group in here is that there is kind of a whole body mentality where there's a spiritual pillar as well as the business, emotional, and everything else. That's something I've been struggling with a little bit too. I have a one-year-old at the house. Yeah, you know, I'm doing my main job, side business, this podcast and everything else, but like trying to find time to make sure that I'm present in in his life and my wife's life and everything else. Yeah. So, well, man, I would did you find what you were looking for in the standard? Did you have anyone that was able to pour into you pretty well?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:08

Yeah, no, yeah, yeah. Um, and and both Joe's, Joe Huffies and Heinz have been are awesome. So yeah, yeah, they're good. So yeah, standard's been awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:19

Great deal. Well, Hegel I appreciate you coming on today. I feel like we got a lot of really good topics out of this. If people want to find you and ask more questions, particularly with like the SEO or the wellness clinic or what have you, how can they reach you?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:32

Uh best is probably just email. Um so John, it's J-O-H-N at directional.health. Um, that's the I get the least amount of spam in there. So highest chance, highest chance of um me responding to the case. Not after this. You'll be getting spammed all day. So um, yeah, but that's that's probably the best way to get in touch.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:55

Okay. Well, I mean, from the crazy story from missionary background growing up to in the medical field, and now you're running multiple different businesses all concurrently to the family man that you are. I appreciate you calling on here. I think this has been really enlightening and best of uh best of luck in your travels back to Atlanta.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:12

Thank you, appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, really appreciate it.