Plan A Capital & Indigenous Ownership

In this episode, we speak with Fred Vicaire and Hugo Bouchard about MMBC's 40% ownership stake in Plan A Capital, and how Indigenous ownership, equity partnerships, and collaboration are creating long-term opportunities for communities.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:10

And hello everyone. Welcome back to the Maomiomi Podcast. I'm your host, Camavicare. Today's episode is one I've been looking forward to because we're talking about a side of economic development that people don't always get to hear about or fully understand. A lot of the time, people hear about projects once construction starts or once there's a big announcement. You see turbines going up, you see infrastructure being built, you hear about investments and partnerships. But before any of that happens, there can be years of planning, studies, financing discussions, relationship building, environmental work, and conversations happening behind the scenes. And I think sometimes people hear that and immediately wonder wait, does that mean decisions are already being made before communities know anything? Which honestly is a fair concern. So today I wanted to have a real conversation about that, just an honest discussion about what this work actually looks like, why MMBC invested in Plan A Capital, and why indigenous ownership and participation in these spaces matter. Joining me today are Fred Vicare, CEO of MNBC, and Hugo Bouchar, co-founder and managing partner of Plan A Capital. Thank you both for being here today.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Thanks, Cammy. Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Before we even get into what Plan A Capital does, how did this partnership come together in the first place?

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Great question, Tammy. Honestly, it started with relationship and conversation over time. An MNBC, we're always looking at long-term. We're always thinking about how we can build stronger capacity for our communities and how we position ourselves better for future opportunities to come. Over time, we got to know Hugo and the team at Plan A, Capital, through work happening with our renewable energy projects and infrastructure projects that we were working on. What stood out was that there was alignment and values in how we approach partnerships collectively together. There was a shared understanding that indigenous communities want to be more involved in projects, not only at the very end, once everything is already structured, but right from the get-go.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

So it wasn't just a random business deal that suddenly happened overnight.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

No, not at all. It may seem like that, but that wasn't the case at all. Relationship matters in this type of work. Trust takes time, and trust matters. Those conversations happen over time, and that trust was built along the way.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

And from our side, we also saw that MMBC had a very forward-looking approach. There was already a strong understanding of economic development, partnership building, and long-term thinking. So the partnership felt really natural.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

I think a lot of people hear terms like project development or project financing and immediately two note because it sounds complicated. So if you had to explain plan a capital to somebody sitting at Tim Hortons over coffee, what would you say you actually do?

SPEAKER_00 3:43

I'd probably say we help projects move from ideas into reality. A lot of major projects, whether it's renewable energy, infrastructure, or other large developments, have years of work happening before construction ever begins. Maybe to simplify the setting of these projects, uh, because um I can relate to you know explaining to someone in the Tim Hortons, because I I've been trying to explain what I do to my family and friends for many years, and some of them have difficulties of understanding. But really, if you if you um compare it to building a house, for example, it's just that you need the same diversity of people, but you need more specialized people and you need more people to um to get it the project done. Um so, for example, for wind power project or for any infrastructure project, um the the people that we have um at Planet Capital, um, some of them specialize in financial modeling. And financial models is a fancy word, but it's really the brains of the project. It's a set of Excel spreadsheets that you need to really make a precise forecast of each project. Because you have to understand that these projects, and it is very good for MMBC because uh these projects are financed on a non-recourse basis. So if something goes wrong with the project, the lenders, the project lenders cannot go back to the sponsors. But the implication is that your financial model has to be very detailed because the lenders can only rely on the cash flow on every dollar that is in the cash flow pro forma in your financial model. So um other professionals that we have do project financing. Uh, as I said, non-recourse project financing, and it requires a specific expertise that that is a little bit more specific than only financing, like general corporate finance. Uh, we also need people involved in project development. Uh, so there are uh a number of things that you need to do in project development. You need the people that can identify sites, that can do the layout, that can uh do all uh secure the permitting, all the functions that you that developers like uh innerjex, for example, or Burlex needs in their um in their everyday life. Uh you also have to be savvy in assessing the risk of every project, do um a very specific risk analysis. Uh, there's a strategy and other uh functions like that. And then you need people that really have the experience of uh on-the-ground work, like uh uh managing the construction on-site, and people that I've live really the real life issues that you can you can see in real projects. And the more issues that you've lived through, uh the more able you will be to foresee what can go wrong in the project. So um the value that Plan A brings um to MBC and also to our other clients, which increasingly it includes First Nations, um, is really that um the team has delivered a real project. We have financed $3 billion of uh project financing for our clients. Uh we have five people that can do financial modeling and not not only junior people, some uh quite senior people that can do that. Uh so when we assist a First Nation uh or or a number of communities or MMBC in one project, we really get into the financial model and we we we are able to discuss the real development issues with the sponsor of the projects.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

And yeah, I think that's something people don't always realize. Sometimes projects can feel very sudden publicly, but behind the scenes, there may have been years of work beforehand.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Exactly. And honestly, many ideas never move forward. Uh, that's another important thing people may not realize. A lot of early stage work is simply about understanding possibilities, risks, constraints, and whether something even makes sense to pursue.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

So I'm glad uh I'm glad you said that because I think this is probably where some people listening may feel also cautious. Because when people hear that discussions are happening years in advance, there can sometimes be this fear that projects are already decided before communities are part of the conversation. So maybe we can unpack that a little bit. What's the difference between exploring possibilities versus actually deciding a project is moving forward?

SPEAKER_00 8:38

There's a big difference. Early stage exploration is really about gathering information and understanding whether something is technically, financially, environmentally, and socially possible. Uh, one thing that we do for uh Wind Power project, for example, is that we we have the uh GIS tools. We have developed the GIS tool that allow us to uh identify sites and see if there are environmental constraints, social constraints, or any type of constraint that would make a project not viable. And and um uh including, of course, aligning that with the wind potential of specific sites. Um but it does not mean a project is approved or finalized because it has to go through a lot of steps uh later, including permitting, uh consultation, and and so on. So projects evolve significantly over time, and comte engagement is a major part of that process. Feedback matters, concerns matter, and relationships matter.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

That's some good points, uh, Hugo. And from our MNBC's perspective, understanding these processes early is actually about making sure our communities are not left outside the conversation from the get-go. It gives us the ability to better understand what's being proposed, ask stronger questions, understand better the risk and opportunities, and participate more meaningfully in the project.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

So, Fred, why was it important for MMBC to invest in a company like Plena?

SPEAKER_01 10:21

For us, we always look at seven generations down the road, and it comes back to long-term capacity and ownership. Historically, indigenous communities were often brought into projects very late in the process with a small percentage of equity participation in those projects. What we're seeing now in communities is that they're wanting to be more involved early on in the stages of development of these projects, wanting to better understand how these projects work, wanting stronger participation and shaping opportunities and creating those projects based on their objectives. Investing in Plan Capital helps MMBC build that knowledge and relationship in those spaces that I just listed. Over time, that creates stronger long-term opportunities for our communities.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

So, do you think Indigenous communities are approaching economic development differently today than maybe they were 10 or 15 years ago?

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Definitely. That's a no-brainer for sure. There's been a major shift in every aspect of project development in regards for First Nation. Communities are thinking more about ownership, long-term revenue generation, capacity building, and creating opportunities that can benefit future generations to come. There are also more Indigenous professionals that are entering all of these aspects of industries in finance, law, engineering, communication, environmental work, that changes the conversation and changes how you govern projects as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

I'd agree with that. There's a growing expectation now that indigenous communities should not only be consulted, but should also have meaningful participation and ownership opportunities where possible. And part of Plan A's mission is to allow them to do that. And honestly, projects are often stronger when those partnerships are built properly.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

So, can one of you explain what equity ownership actually means in plain language?

SPEAKER_00 12:33

In simple terms, it means having ownership in a project or company instead of only receiving short-term benefits. It means participating in long-term value creation. There can be shared risk, shared rewards, and more involvement and decision making over time.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

So it's really more about having a seat at the table long term instead of only reacting from the outside.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

One thing I keep thinking about is how many young Indigenous people probably don't realize there's space for them in this world. People hear renewable energy and think only about construction or engineering, but there's communications, environmental work, governance, finance, negotiations, project management. There's so many different paths connected to these projects. What opportunities do you think are opening up for younger Indigenous professionals right now?

SPEAKER_01 13:32

I think it skies the limit for young Indigenous individuals right now. I think there's more opportunities than ever before. What's important is that communities need people who can navigate both worlds, understanding the business aspect and industry while understanding community values, priorities, and realities of uh the current situation in their own community. That balance is very important to shape and customize these projects that we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

And these industries are evolving quickly. There's a real need for Indigenous leadership and indigenous perspective in these spaces moving forward.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

So, last question. Uh, what gives you hope right now when you think about where Indigenous economic development is heading?

SPEAKER_01 14:26

For me, as having an economic development background and being involved in my own communities since I graduated university, there's been a progress that I've I've it's unbelievable. So seeing communities becoming stronger, more informed, and more evolve and shaping their own future brings me a lot of pride and knowing that what we're creating now is gonna push that limit even more for the future.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Um, I'd agree with that. I'd say um what gives me hope is the partnership that we see evolving. Uh, when partnerships are built properly with trust, respect, and long-term thinking, there's a lot of potential there. Uh, it is not always the case, however, that's always what we're aiming for. And there's also, you know, a another level to um that we see happening in some cases, whereby uh there can be some Indigenous-led developments that are happening. So, in some of our mandates, we are we are helping to create the new MMBC, to create uh some development teams, to work a Nord chart and recruitment. So uh I've got a whole whole lot of uh hope for the future.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

So I think I think one of the biggest takeaways from today's conversation is that economic development is about relationships, knowledge, understanding the process, and making sure indigenous communities are not sitting on the outside of decisions that affect them. So thank you, Fred and Hugo, for taking the time to have this conversation. And thank you to everyone listening to the Mauiomi podcast. We'll see you next time.