#3 | From Wild Child to Medicine Man | The Story Behind Alessandro Schiavoni

From wild child to medicine man — Alessandro's origin story is one you won't see coming

20 years in the psychedelic field — what he's learned about what people really struggle with, and whether everyone can truly heal

Why most psychedelic experiences fall short — the one thing most providers skip that makes all the difference

The truth about "bad trips" — and why Alessandro doesn't even use that term

What becoming a father taught him about being a guide — and the one thing he says every facilitator should never do

If this conversation resonated with you, feel free to hit the follow or subscribe button. It helps these conversations reach more curious humans.

And if you’re curious to experience a safe, guided psychedelic journey yourself, you can apply via our website at askalice.world. Our next retreats take place 1 to 4 May and 2 to 5 June in the Netherlands

And don’t forget…
when in doubt, ask Alice.

Transcript

Alessandro 0:00

I didn't want to die, but, uh, yeah, I wasn't living either,

Carlien 0:04

yeah.

Alessandro 0:05

just in between extreme, uh, stuckness, boredom, uh, heaviness, self-destructive.

0:13

Welcome to Ellis asks. My name is Kalin Kas, and I'm your host and the founder of Ask Ellis, where we create curated psychedelic experiences for curious humans. I believe psychedelics are part of a broader shift in consciousness the world is asking for right now. One rooted in awareness, responsibility and connection. In this podcast, I talk with interesting humans in the psychedelic field from lived experience to science and facilitation, and I'll sometimes share my own reflections from working in this space. Welcome to Alice Asks.

Carlien 0:56

so today I am super enthusiastic because, um, I'm gonna invite the most important person for Ask Ellis. Um, and it's my co-founder, Alessandro. Uh, you might think he's an Italian, but he will explain, uh, the exact story later. Um, and together with Alessandro, I, uh, started ask Alice from our boat shared passions for, uh, psychedelics. Um, but I must say Alessandro is not a newbie in this field. Um, whereas I feel maybe more of a newbie. He is like, yeah, maybe we can even call him the, one of the OGs, uh, in Belgium. Um, and because Alessandro is such, um, valuable person in, in all of what we do in the retreats, um, I thought it would be interesting for everyone to get to know him, not only the people who are in the retreats, but also you people out there who don't know him yet. Um, and, uh, because I know everyone, uh, who gets to meet Alessandro literally falls in love. Um. Literally or less literally. Uh, because he's really a special person. So welcome, Alessandro.

Alessandro 2:36

Thank you for having me.

Carlien 2:37

He's blossoming. Um, so yeah, I, it's, I think this is the first conversation I didn't prepare because I wanted it to be a bit spontaneous. Um, but it's always curious. Uh, I'm always interested by life stories and, um, I think you have like an exceptional life story, a very, uh, atypical life story, uh, which is definitely, uh, worth diving into. So maybe, um, let's start with the start. Um. What, how would you describe yourself today? Like, what, what do you do if people ask you, I don't think you go to a lot of networking events, but if you would go and people would ask you, how would you describe what you do?

Alessandro 3:35

um, well, officially I'm a consultant

Carlien 3:41

Mm-hmm. Pfizer,

Alessandro 3:42

but yeah, I, I never use that title. Uh, some people, um, call me a medicine man or a shaman. But also, uh, I don't really use, uh, those titles. Um, the, I think the way I explain it to my children, uh, uh, is how I feel. Uh, that's what I'm doing. It's like, looking people in the eye, having, uh, conversations from the heart and, uh, taking them on a trip into the dream, dream world and, uh, solve problems.

Carlien 4:31

Mm. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny because I, I think we are still working on the website, uh, and I think one of the things I wrote about you was that you are exceptionally good at seeing people, uh, but like really seeing people not only, or, or mostly not the outside outer shell, but really what's beneath that? Um,

Alessandro 5:00

Yeah. I love, uh, observation.

Carlien 5:03

I just

Alessandro 5:03

love, uh, having an open view and just a watch don't, uh, analyze or think about it,

Carlien 5:12

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 5:12

but just observe.

Carlien 5:14

Yeah. And. What are the people, what type of people did you already help in your career? Let's see. Like what, what are the, the challenges people come with? Uh,

Alessandro 5:31

yeah. Um, yeah, I've worked, worked, it's 20 years now. Um, so I've worked with almost everybody.

Carlien 5:41

yeah.

Alessandro 5:42

Yeah. All kinds of people. children, men, women, From all layers of, uh, society, let's say. the challenges are mostly the same, uh,

Carlien 5:59

which are,

Alessandro 6:00

yeah. Um, people are tired. they don't have a direction or a vision in their life.

Carlien 6:08

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 6:09

are depressed. just struggling, uh, being human,

Carlien 6:15

Um,

Alessandro 6:16

struggling with, uh, systemic issues

Carlien 6:22

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 6:23

the way the world, uh, is, is often very challenging for people.

Carlien 6:29

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 6:30

uh, yeah. Causes a lot of, uh, dissonance.

Carlien 6:35

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's probably, uh, I also start to feel that, that all the problems people have, you can maybe link them back to two to three core problems. Yeah. And, and yeah.

Alessandro 6:53

And, uh, yeah, obviously some people are just very traumatized, hurt, broken, so, yeah.

Carlien 7:00

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 7:01

Basically,

Carlien 7:03

do you believe that everyone can be held or have you seen, um, lost cases?

Alessandro 7:11

Well, yeah. I have this basic belief that everything is possible, but, at the same time, yeah, you can, I, I've experienced like, uh, extreme, uh, toughness or inability mm-hmm. To, to grow, uh, to, to heal. Yeah. Mm-hmm. There is sometimes, uh, yeah, sometimes it doesn't happen.

Carlien 7:39

Mm-hmm. yeah, Yeah. Okay. I have so many questions, but let, let's maybe go back to the start. Uh, you work with psychedelics without psychedelics. Yeah. But I, I, I would say that's maybe also the, the common theme in most of what you do. Um, how did that start? Because I know what was the first time you had a psychedelic experience?

Alessandro 8:11

Okay. Um, my first, yeah. My parents are gonna enjoy this. Um,

Carlien 8:18

let's assume they're not listening. It's gonna,

Alessandro 8:21

the link though. You

Carlien 8:22

it's gonna improve the conversation.

Alessandro 8:24

Yeah, no, it's all good. But, um, yeah, I had a, when I was 15, going 16, I had a girlfriend who was, uh, 18, going 19. She was studying psychology uh, Louisville and, uh. Instead of going to school, I skipped school. I would go, go visit her. Uh, we would spend time, and uh, she introduced me to a lot of things that actually I are the, the main teams in my life now. I smoked my first blunt with her.

Carlien 9:10

What is blunt? I don't even know. Uh, a joint. Yeah. Yeah.

Alessandro 9:15

um, yeah. My, my, like I had sex with her for the first time in my life. Like, um, I, she introduced me to, into a lot of things, but also, yeah, she was studying psychology, so, uh, she was always like, ah, read this book. Read that book. Uh, we, we all, we always had like interesting conversations. And there was also, yeah, like shamanic books. Like she introduced me to a. Castaneda. Mm-hmm.

Carlien 9:46

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 9:47

Um, which had a very strong impact for me. Mm-hmm.

Carlien 9:51

Mm-hmm. yeah.

Alessandro 9:53

anyways, um, so the first time I did mushrooms, uh, I was like 16, 15, going 16. Uh, I have to say it was very, um, mind blowing. Uh, like it really connected me with, uh, being alive. Mm-hmm.

Carlien 10:12

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 10:12

Let's say, it's, it's normal, eh? I was 15, so I was a bit struggling, like, uh, uh, adolescence,

Carlien 10:23

um,

Alessandro 10:26

yeah, history. Uh, I was a bit of a wild child.

Carlien 10:34

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 10:38

and yeah, it made me like I opened up like the first time I tripped. I, I really opened up to like, nature and,

Carlien 10:47

uh,

Alessandro 10:49

I could like really enjoy for the first time, walking around.

Carlien 10:54

Mm-hmm. Because still then you didn't,

Alessandro 11:00

um, I was just wild self-destructive. Like, uh, I was super bored with everything. Nothing excited me.

Carlien 11:10

uh,

Alessandro 11:10

Like, uh, I was just stuck. Very stuck. I didn't want to die, but, uh, yeah, I wasn't living either,

Carlien 11:20

yeah.

Alessandro 11:21

just in between extreme, uh, stuckness, boredom, uh, heaviness, self-destructive.

Carlien 11:30

Yeah. And, um, yeah. I want, I wanted to ask, did you up till that point, had an idea of what you wanted to do with your life? But No. Like,

Alessandro 11:40

with your life or No, like I had this, but that's maybe a bit typical with like, uh, punks or anything, but like, I didn't have a long-term vision. I was always like saying like, ah, I'll probably be that when I'm 21. Oh, yeah.

Carlien 11:52

Oh, yeah.

Alessandro 11:53

So like that, that kind of, um, um,

Carlien 11:56

uh,

Alessandro 11:56

mentality. So I, I at in, not in nothing. I, I played a long game or like, yeah. Made choices that would be like constructive or creative.

Carlien 12:08

Yeah,

Alessandro 12:09

It was just like day by day. Yeah. Smoking a lot of weed, drinking, uh, I was also like, yeah, hypersexual.

Carlien 12:18

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 12:19

like that was a big coping mechanism for me. Yeah. So that was a bit where I was at.

Carlien 12:26

at. And, um, of course you can wonder how, how come, uh, of course many adolescents, they end up a bit stuck or lost, or

Alessandro 12:39

mm-hmm.

Carlien 12:41

did you have like, support from your parents in this whole thing? Or were you disconnected from them?

Alessandro 12:51

Well, they're both very loving, but they couldn't really, uh, handle me or, uh, guide me into a direction. Like I said, I, I felt a bit like moly, like just running around wild, like, uh,

Carlien 13:07

yeah. Were they worried?

Alessandro 13:14

yeah.

Carlien 13:15

Yeah. I forgot to ask, but we started with your family name, which is Italian.

Alessandro 13:23

Vo Yeah. My father is Italian. Okay. Uh, my mother is from here. Flemish?

Carlien 13:27

Yeah.

Alessandro 13:28

Yeah.

Carlien 13:29

Yeah. Yeah. Anything

Alessandro 13:32

was born here.

Carlien 13:32

born here. Yeah. Anything else you want to share from, from before this first psychedelic experience that shaped you?

Alessandro 13:46

um, yeah, not really. Nothing comes to mind now, but like, I, I, I always had the feeling that like, uh, like that, yeah. Uh, coming from like poverty and like, uh, having no, uh, having the feeling that I had no choices

Carlien 14:13

mm-hmm.

Alessandro 14:13

Like really, um, closed me off like

Carlien 14:17

ah, yeah. The, the lack of perspective. Yeah. Like

Alessandro 14:22

no financial support. No. No. No guidance into like, uh, yeah. And do anything

Carlien 14:30

Yeah. That

Alessandro 14:33

I also didn't really know like, what, where, what am I good at?

Carlien 14:38

or

Alessandro 14:38

like, do I even like something?

Carlien 14:41

Yeah.

Alessandro 14:42

Um, I always wanted to be a rapper though.

Carlien 14:47

Still today.

Alessandro 14:48

Yeah. I'm too old.

Carlien 14:50

Oh, that's like a limiting belief. Yeah, that's true.

Alessandro 14:56

Yeah. Let's see. I could, uh, I could make a mix tape maybe. Yeah. Ask Alice

Carlien 15:01

tape Yeah. The first, uh, yeah, that would be nice. So then at 1516, you had your first psychedelic experience with mushrooms, right? Yeah.

Alessandro 15:13

Like, like that was, in that time you still had like actual mushrooms. Yeah. Like those were still legal in, uh, Holland. where I grew up, it's like 20 minutes from the border. So we like, yeah. I'm coming from a, yeah. A place and a, like a subculture that had a lot of access to like, everything that was possible in Holland. Yeah,

Carlien 15:42

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alessandro 15:43

yeah,

Carlien 15:44

yeah. So you just had to drive?

Alessandro 15:47

yeah. We, we took the bus,

Carlien 15:48

like, ah, yeah,

Alessandro 15:49

We went to, we crossed the border

Carlien 15:52

into this Smart shops then, or, or even not, yeah, yeah.

Alessandro 15:57

Smart shops and, uh, yeah. What's it called? Like smoke shops?

Carlien 16:00

Mm-hmm. Okay. So then you had this first experience, which kind of, for the first time gave you some sense of connection

Alessandro 16:10

Yeah. Yeah. I really felt

Carlien 16:12

Yeah.

Alessandro 16:12

Yeah. With, uh, with nature mostly. We, uh, we went outside, we went for a walk, um, um, in the tail that's actually like, uh, in limber, a very beautiful, uh. Yeah. Natural spot

Carlien 16:29

Yeah. It's the mountains.

Alessandro 16:31

Yeah. It's also connected with, uh, uh, our history from the Italian side, um, because of the coal mining. Yeah. So, uh, my grandparents and, uh, yeah, just the Italian side, but actually also the, uh, Flemish sites.

Carlien 16:47

Yeah.

Alessandro 16:47

They all worked, uh, yeah. In that coal mining, uh, situation. And, uh, yeah, those places they like, they cultivated it into like beautiful and natural spots. So, so I grew, I grew up there playing and

Carlien 17:05

mm-hmm.

Alessandro 17:06

So we went for a walk there.

Carlien 17:08

Yeah. And

Alessandro 17:12

yeah, nature and like the sun, uh, going down

Carlien 17:18

yeah.

Alessandro 17:18

like the wind and the birds and the. the green and it just connected me. Yeah. Like, I felt beauty, I felt awe,

Carlien 17:27

Yeah.

Alessandro 17:27

felt a lot of things that I never really

Carlien 17:30

mm-hmm.

Alessandro 17:32

Yeah. Experienced up, up until that point. Yeah.

Carlien 17:35

Yeah. Like, um. A paradigm shift, like all of a sudden you, you have a different glasses.

Alessandro 17:43

Yeah. And actually, like looking back, uh, I spoke my first intention, uh, during that trip. Like, I didn't know that I did that in that moment, but looking back, like I really felt my, like, my heart opening and, uh, telling myself like, oh, I want to, like, I want to explore this, this experience. Like, how can I take the, like, can I live my life based on that? Uh, seeing beauty and

Carlien 18:16

Yeah.

Alessandro 18:17

Uh, feeling connected.

Carlien 18:19

Yeah. Nice.

Alessandro 18:22

And the funny thing, like that intention and like, um, the input from my, uh, then girlfriend, um, like she gave me a book. I, uh, I, I said it already, like, uh, uh, it's, it was a book from, uh, Carlos Castaneda,

Carlien 18:39

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 18:40

um, a bit of a infamous person, but that didn't matter for me at that moment. But, uh, the book is about, uh, um, a student who encounters a Shama,

Carlien 18:52

Mm-hmm. like all

Alessandro 18:54

the books is about like the 10 years that, that he was a student, uh, of this Shama. Yeah.

Carlien 19:00

Yeah.

Alessandro 19:01

And I was super intrigued, like, oh, maybe that's because I hated school. Yeah. I was like, not capable of like, sitting on my chair or, yeah. like, I couldn't like everything, uh. Jumped around. Like I

Carlien 19:19

Like I couldn't, Yeah.

Alessandro 19:22

And, um, that was the first time that I was like, oh, maybe that is something that would get, like, that would be cool. Yeah. Instead of school or like, yeah. Having no perspective, you know, like, uh, maybe that would be my thing.

Carlien 19:40

Yeah. Yeah. So you literally felt it quite quickly.

Alessandro 19:43

Yeah. There was this instinct or, uh, intrigue, like, uh, like natural, like, whoa. Hmm. I feel something here. And like those two things, like, let's say that were like two intentions, spontaneous intentions, and, and those two Yeah. Made, made like, made a very important, uh, meeting happen. Uh, I believe. Uh, which was when I was 19.

Carlien 20:13

Yeah.

Alessandro 20:13

Uh, yeah. I met my teacher. Which, yeah. If I look back at that, I was like, life saving or maybe not saving because I didn't want to die, but like that gave me like an actual direction and a felt sense of this is what I

Carlien 20:31

Yeah.

Alessandro 20:32

want to do.

Carlien 20:34

Yeah. Yeah.

Alessandro 20:34

Yeah.

Carlien 20:35

And um, maybe for people who are a bit vague on what is teacher and because most people think about school teachers, how

Alessandro 20:47

Yeah. That's a difficult question. What is a shaman? What is a teacher? Yeah. But I would say, uh, somebody that sees you, uh, has a sense of what you need and can support you without like having an agenda or a, manipulation or them seeing something in you that they want you to do. Mm-hmm. But just somebody who can see you and, and.

Carlien 21:14

take you along,

Alessandro 21:16

Take you along, uh, makes you meet yourself, uh, rise up to the occasion, um,

Carlien 21:22

yeah.

Alessandro 21:22

and grow into that thing that's alive in you. Uh,

Carlien 21:29

How did you meet her?

Alessandro 21:31

Yeah. And yeah, that's also funny because, by then I had a, another girlfriend.

Carlien 21:39

Yeah. You were still

Alessandro 21:41

Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. Women have always been portals for me throughout my life, starting with my mother, birthing me to, uh, it's like a chain of, uh, women initiating me. Uh, consciously or

Carlien 21:58

yeah,

Alessandro 21:59

Or not. Um, anyways, we were sitting at her father's place and her father had a friend over. Mm.

Carlien 22:10

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 22:11

And I was just talking, uh, like, um, this is interesting and da da da. I was like talking about shamanism and like, uh, I was

Carlien 22:21

Talking

Alessandro 22:21

about mushrooms and that I heard that there were other plants that were psychedelic and healing and like, uh, ayahuasca for instance. Um, and this guy was just silent and he was letting me talk and he had this like, look in his eyes, like, and then suddenly, like when I was like done,

Carlien 22:42

Yeah.

Alessandro 22:42

he was like, do you want to meet a Shama? And I was like, what?

Carlien 22:48

yeah,

Alessandro 22:49

Yeah, I know. Uh, I, I know a couple of them. Uh, actually we can meet one right now.

Carlien 22:57

Wow.

Alessandro 22:57

Do you have time? So, uh, yeah, we jumped in the car, we went, uh, to a place in the forest where there was a retreat going on. which was something I, I, I had no idea about. Like, what, what, what is this?

Carlien 23:14

Yeah.

Alessandro 23:16

uh, anyways, uh, um, they weren't able to take me in like the, it just, it didn't open up, but that made, uh, the mo one of the most important meetings of my life happened because, because that portal, uh, portal stayed close.

Carlien 23:38

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 23:39

Uh, we went to the other shaman.

Carlien 23:42

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 23:43

not that day, but like, huh.

Carlien 23:44

Yeah. And,

Alessandro 23:45

And, um, yeah, that was, uh, that was the one, it was a kind of a,

Carlien 23:53

you remember what year that was? More or

Alessandro 23:55

was? I, I must have been 18 or 19. I'm 43 now,

Carlien 24:02

I'm bad at, uh,

Alessandro 24:03

Let's not do maths now.

Carlien 24:06

Yeah. Yeah. I,

Alessandro 24:14

Like I said, cool. Never. Um, yeah, I've got, uh, different qualities. Yeah. But, um, math is not one

Carlien 24:21

them. Yeah. somewhere in the nineties, I guess.

Alessandro 24:27

yeah.

Carlien 24:32

yeah, Now I wanna know.

Alessandro 24:33

2000

Carlien 24:36

wait,

Alessandro 24:36

and a bit.

Carlien 24:45

Oh, wait, wait. 2001? Yeah. Yeah.

Alessandro 24:48

Ah, crazy.

Carlien 24:49

Long, time ago.

Alessandro 24:50

Long, long time ago.

Carlien 24:54

Um,

Alessandro 24:59

what, uh, what was the question?

Carlien 25:01

no, you were still telling about that you, you couldn't meet anyone Interesting. In that retreat, but then, uh, yeah, a bit later,

Alessandro 25:09

then, uh, like a week or two

Carlien 25:11

he introduced you

Alessandro 25:11

He introduced me

Carlien 25:13

the one. one, yeah. To my teacher. Yeah. Um.

Alessandro 25:17

Um, which was, uh, kind of love at the first sight. she knew it more than me, obviously, because I was like, yeah. With my head in the cloud and like, oh, cool. I'm meeting a shaman, and like, oh, we're gonna do ayahuasca. And

Carlien 25:31

Yeah. It was

Alessandro 25:32

like, uh, yeah. But she, she looked at me, she sat next to me. She gave me a cup of tea, and she said, nice to meet you. And, uh,

Carlien 25:42

normal tea.

Alessandro 25:43

Normal tea at that point. Uh, and she said to me, uh, I like you, uh, I'm gonna throw you in deep.

Carlien 25:53

Yeah. Oh.

Alessandro 25:53

And I was like, uh oh, okay. Uh, whatever. Like, uh, yeah. Acting tough. Like I, I had no clue about anything. Yeah. like, yeah, yeah. That's why I'm here.

Carlien 26:05

yeah,

Alessandro 26:06

But yeah, that, uh, that was the start of like a, a bond of eight years. Wow.

Carlien 26:12

Wow.

Alessandro 26:13

Uh, not constantly, obviously there was like, uh, waves, like sometimes I saw her a lot. Sometimes I didn't see her. Uh, but yeah, I, yeah. Actually up until today, I feel her very close to me. Like she's one of the most important people in my life. For me, she's still very much alive, like in my heart.

Carlien 26:36

Yeah. Because she died, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Alessandro 26:38

Uh, around the birth of my daughter, let's say 13, 14 years ago. How?

Carlien 26:42

How was that?

Alessandro 26:44

Well, uh, that was shocking, but like, uh, I just froze, like, uh, when I received the news, uh, I felt nothing about it for two years. Oh yeah. It took, it took a very long time,

Carlien 26:57

Yeah.

Alessandro 26:58

uh, until I opened up for the reality of it and, uh, had a good cry about it.

Carlien 27:03

yeah. So you met her and then, because what you are explaining now, um, for people, listen. Sounds very much like a traditional initiation into, shamanism. Yeah. Because in, in the West we always think like, you go to school, you follow some theory, you do the exam, you get the diploma, and that allows you to have a title and to do certain things. Yeah. However, yeah.

Alessandro 27:45

Within shamanism is, uh, yeah, obviously you have like rigid systems there, there too, and like, uh, different cultures,

Carlien 27:54

Yeah. Different,

Alessandro 27:54

uh, lineages. Yeah. But you also have like a very, uh, wild lineages, like

Carlien 28:00

Just

Alessandro 28:02

Yeah. The way the wind blows and, uh, initiates a person into,

Carlien 28:09

but can you explain for people listening how this way of. Qualifying for something is different from school. You've

Alessandro 28:21

well, you could

Carlien 28:22

you've done bo both, so Yeah,

Alessandro 28:24

yeah. Obviously you have a lot of like, uh, shaman, uh, workshops and weekends and like, uh, yeah. You, you have this formal, uh, yeah. Way

Carlien 28:35

of mm-hmm.

Alessandro 28:37

Becoming a shaman mostly in the west. Uh, but like traditionally it's bloodlines, it's lineages, it's teachers recognizing something in you and, uh, yeah. just pulling you in

Carlien 28:50

it from your parents or for your

Alessandro 28:52

Yeah,

Carlien 28:53

Or in your case from somebody who believes in you.

Alessandro 28:56

Yeah. And, um,

Carlien 29:00

but then what, what happens actually, eh, because I, I assume she's not gonna go teach you the theory about,

Alessandro 29:07

you know? Um, it's often said like, uh, you don't choose that path. You, if you choose it consciously, you are, you are a crazy person.

Carlien 29:16

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 29:17

Um, becomes, because there, there, there's a lot. It takes a lot. And like, uh, like a same person wouldn't necessarily choose that way of living. Yeah. And, and, and what it takes, like the training is really, uh, like, it can be really,

Carlien 29:33

mm-hmm.

Alessandro 29:35

uh, crazy and intense. yeah, it can be very destabilizing,

Carlien 29:40

Mm.

Alessandro 29:42

a lot of times where you have to really, uh, pull yourself together, like, uh, and, and, and yeah, learn, uh, grow. It's very, uh, personal and very, um. Pragmatic, eh? Like, uh,

Carlien 30:00

Yeah. But can you tell a bit about the training? Like

Alessandro 30:05

well, the training,

Carlien 30:06

I, I'm asking. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think a lot of people have this idea.

Alessandro 30:11

Mm. It

Carlien 30:11

you a schedule and

Alessandro 30:13

No. So what training,

Carlien 30:15

What is it? The

Alessandro 30:16

The first years it was just, uh, like ayahuasca ceremonies. So the yeah.

Carlien 30:22

not guiding.

Alessandro 30:23

No, not at all. So fixing your own shit, like, uh, finding your own way, that's like, that's literally the, the teaching. Yeah. Uh,

Carlien 30:40

start with yourself.

Alessandro 30:41

siblings. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, that happened in these weekends where we just got together like a little community, like we do like a little tripe, uh, for, a while. And, uh. yeah, there was a lot of things, a lot of somatic work. Like if I look back at it, then I didn't know what we were doing. Uh, like I didn't know all this stuff, but it's like, family constellations, it's therapy. It's, ener like, yeah. Energy, uh, a lot of, um, somatics, um, uh, like a practical psychology. a lot of sharing, uh, learning from each other. But then in the evenings it was like literal ayahuasca ceremonies, eh? Yeah.

Carlien 31:32

Yeah. So,

Alessandro 31:32

um, yeah, it's a, it's a medicine, it's a old medicine and it puts you in a, yeah. Psychedelic state, let's say.

Carlien 31:43

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 31:43

Mm-hmm. Uh, by a lack of, uh, better words. But it makes you feel, and it gives you like an insight into your, uh, yeah. Shadows and challenges. And, uh, it gives you, uh, yeah, it purifies you also, like literally, you have to like puke and sweat

Carlien 32:06

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Alessandro 32:09

the first part is often a struggle, uh, in, into like letting go and, uh, like muscle memory release and, uh,

Carlien 32:18

mm-hmm. cleanse

Alessandro 32:20

and like a cellular level. Uh, but yeah, I'm not a scientist, so I'm, I'm using those terms loosely. Um, but yeah. Uh, just cleaning up your shit, owning up, like looking your demons in the ice. Yeah. Uh, seeing the invitation beyond, beyond, uh, the challenges you face in your life and just, yeah, just rising to the occasion. Uh. Um, and cultivating a a Yeah. Loving qualities.

Carlien 32:50

Yeah.

Alessandro 32:51

Becoming human, actually. Yeah. Um, and yeah, it's, it's, it's super intense. It, it was these weekends and then, uh, yeah, a lot of integration time, uh, and then talks and uh hmm.

Carlien 33:06

Is it intense because it's a lot or because of

Alessandro 33:11

it's a lot. It's very overwhelming.

Carlien 33:13

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 33:14

Um, and it's just super personal. It's your pain, it's your, uh, yeah. Grief. It's your trauma. It's your,

Carlien 33:23

yeah. So basically before she starts teaching you how to guide people,

Alessandro 33:29

Yeah. That wasn't, yeah. That was. That was after eight years. Oh, wow. Uh, also because that was not my intention. I was still, uh, in the mindset

Carlien 33:40

of like,

Alessandro 33:41

like, for the most part, like it's not

Carlien 33:43

because I opened up a bit

Alessandro 33:45

that, that I was like, enlightened or

Carlien 33:48

anything.

Alessandro 33:49

Yeah. Like, I was still very much like, uh, fuck the world and,

Carlien 33:53

um, I

Alessandro 33:57

couldn't care less. Uh, I didn't have like a medicine man intention. Yeah. I was like, uh, exploration and

Carlien 34:05

uh, yeah,

Alessandro 34:06

just trying to help myself

Carlien 34:08

Yeah.

Alessandro 34:10

from those two, um, intentions, eh, I mentioned earlier, so the intentions were strong, but me as a person was still, uh, yeah. Some type of way.

Carlien 34:20

Yeah. Uh, yeah, so that's interesting. Yeah. Like, because if you look at a lot of the trainings today, it's very short, very condensed, and then people get some kind of certificates quite quickly.

Alessandro 34:37

Yeah. And the people choose to do it. Yeah. Like, it's not like you get chosen.

Carlien 34:42

many of the trainings, they focus very much on the practical stuff, like how to keep people safe, to understand what it does with the brain. But yeah, I, I've done some of these. Trainings and Yeah. You have some messed up people getting certificates, so

Alessandro 35:07

it is a problem, eh, in our, uh, line of work.

Carlien 35:10

Yeah.

Alessandro 35:13

a certificate says nothing really. Yeah. Uh, I'm not, uh, like critiquing what people actually learn necessarily, but yeah. There is a lot that they don't learn and that you can only learn by, Uh. Doing the work, uh, working with people, and being supported by Yeah. Uh, a lineage or a, a guide or a,

Carlien 35:41

Mm-hmm. Teacher.

Alessandro 35:43

Yeah. Something that's, uh, so something or somebody that's Yeah. Smarter than you.

Carlien 35:47

you. Wiser I would say much wiser. Yeah. Um, okay. So, so does that also mean that ayahuasca was your second psychedelic you trait after Yeah. Let's not take wheat into the,

Alessandro 36:06

That's also a master teacher, but, uh, not mine. Like, that's not a medicine, uh, like, you know, all the medicines have, uh, characters. Yeah. Just like UME, like we're both human, but we're, uh, very different. Yeah. And these plants, it's all plants, but they're very different.

Carlien 36:23

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 36:24

I consider them, uh, just like UME living beings. With intelligence. And,

Carlien 36:30

that's interesting. How would you describe, uh, 'cause people always wanna know, how would you describe the mushroom character?

Alessandro 36:39

Yeah. Well, um, mushrooms I would say are, uh, um, very wise and very playful, almost, uh, too playful at times, but always within a, a, a higher wisdom.

Carlien 36:55

Yeah.

Alessandro 36:56

But, uh, just like children who play and like, fall out of a tree or like hurt themselves and then learn by, by those

Carlien 37:05

experiences. Yeah.

Alessandro 37:07

I feel, uh, like mushrooms is a bit like this. Yeah.

Carlien 37:10

Yeah. They're often called also Los Nino.

Alessandro 37:13

Yeah. But yeah, the name, yeah. Suits it. Suits, yeah. The vibe of, uh, like, yeah, the mushroom

Carlien 37:20

Then after mushrooms, what was it, ayahuasca, the second thing you tried or, uh,

Alessandro 37:24

Uh, yeah, there was some like recreational use of, uh, salvia.

Carlien 37:29

Oh yeah. I just came back from Tulum and I saw Salvia. Divinorum. Yeah.

Alessandro 37:35

yeah.

Carlien 37:36

Someone gave it to me in my hands and I was like getting really nervous. I'm like, is this really the Sylvia? It's quite strong, right?

Alessandro 37:44

It's strong, very, uh, unpredictable. You can't, you can't like, control it. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. But yeah, again, that was, uh, like in that small space where I did some recreational

Carlien 37:56

Yeah.

Alessandro 37:57

Maybe, uh, to, to, to my luck. I didn't have like a, a, a big space where I was, where I could like just fuck around with

Carlien 38:06

Things.

Alessandro 38:07

Yeah. Um, because, uh, yeah, I just met that, uh, my teacher at a young age. Yeah. So I was guided and supported.

Carlien 38:17

Yeah.

Alessandro 38:18

Which, uh, looking back probably is a

Carlien 38:21

Saved you.

Alessandro 38:22

Yeah, yeah,

Carlien 38:24

yeah. We're gonna come back to that later of the importance of guidance. Uh, 'cause I think that's. Also an important topic.

Alessandro 38:33

mm.

Carlien 38:33

So Svia, tell me about the, so, so her medicine of your teacher was ayahuasca

Alessandro 38:40

Yeah. Back then. Yeah. She worked with Ayahuasca.

Carlien 38:44

Do you still remember the first time? Uh,

Alessandro 38:48

mix up the first three times actually. Like, uh, I don't really, like, for me it's like one big happening.

Carlien 38:55

Yeah, that's okay.

Alessandro 38:58

Yeah. But, uh, yeah.

Carlien 39:00

How was it? If you wanna share like,

Alessandro 39:04

Yeah. Of, yeah. I don't mind. Uh, let's say my first impression, uh. Uh, uh, first off, um, it was for me, still, still, even when I look back, very difficult to differentiate my teacher and the ayahuasca because there was so much

Carlien 39:26

Mm.

Alessandro 39:26

uh, in character

Carlien 39:28

mm-hmm.

Alessandro 39:28

That I, that I, uh, sometimes have problems with. Uh,

Carlien 39:32

how would you describe the character of Ayahuasca? say

Alessandro 39:38

a very, very, uh, sharp, fierce, uh, warm and loving

Carlien 39:48

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 39:50

Like, like grandmothers often are Yeah.

Carlien 39:53

you don't wanna miss too much with Yeah.

Alessandro 39:55

Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're sitting somewhere and they're just like looking at the family and like, just knowing and, and seeing,

Carlien 40:03

yeah.

Alessandro 40:05

they can be like super loving and they can be like super strict and fierce.

Carlien 40:11

and they come with their stick. Yeah. Yeah.

Alessandro 40:15

Throwing like a

Carlien 40:15

yeah. Okay, so, so, okay. Tell me what the, the three

Alessandro 40:22

yeah, so let's, let me think. Like, uh, well I would say I had a very super, very visual visionary experience. Like,

Carlien 40:37

like,

Alessandro 40:39

because we, we left afterwards because, uh, I, I drank one cup, like back then you, you drank three cups, uh, as the night went.

Carlien 40:49

Yeah.

Alessandro 40:50

You had like, uh, not formally, but you could say it was in three rounds.

Carlien 40:56

Yeah. For those people who, dunno, ayahuasca, I always drink it. It's like a, a dirty, it's a brew of some. Amazonian plants. Yeah. Which tastes horrible, by the way.

Alessandro 41:13

Yeah. It's an acquired taste.

Carlien 41:15

Yeah. Maybe

Alessandro 41:15

When I think about it, I get shivers in my spine,

Carlien 41:18

Yeah.

Alessandro 41:20

it's all love. Um, so, um, yeah, I drank my first cup and, uh, must have been like 10 minutes. Like she was, she started singing, singing her first song, um, and I, and I immediately started puking,

Carlien 41:43

Oh, wow.

Alessandro 41:43

immediately it was already there, and I like, wow. I, uh, yeah, it happened very, like, it was very overwhelming, like, uh, montage and, uh, speed it up.

Carlien 41:55

Mm-hmm. But

Alessandro 41:56

like, uh, yeah, a lot of like negativity, uh, life experiences that, uh, yeah. Hurt me or kind of traumatized me, uh, fa family dynamics.

Carlien 42:08

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 42:09

Like flashing before my eyes and, and just puking.

Carlien 42:13

Mm-hmm. Wow.

Alessandro 42:13

Yeah. It was super intense. And um, and then it opened up like, uh, when everything was out, uh, yeah. And this is gonna sound Yeah, like a typical psychedelic experience, but like, I could see like crazy colors

Carlien 42:30

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 42:31

the aura around

Carlien 42:33

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 42:34

creatures and beings in the room. everything you would imagine from a psychedelic experience, times a million, like super lucid, colorful, intense, like my eyes almost popped out of my skull. It was so like, at some point I couldn't even bear it anymore. Like,

Carlien 42:55

yeah.

Alessandro 42:56

It was I not negatively. Yeah. Just super overwhelming and beautiful experience. Yeah. Which basically just told me like, Hey, there's more. Too live than you know.

Carlien 43:08

Yeah.

Alessandro 43:08

Yeah. You don't know what you don't know, eh. Yeah.

Carlien 43:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Alessandro 43:11

So, uh, um, yeah, I, I got to look beyond the veil,

Carlien 43:21

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's often how,

Alessandro 43:25

Yeah. So, so really nice purification and like, I look behind the veil. I would say that, that first time.

Carlien 43:32

Yeah. Yeah.

Alessandro 43:35

Very inviting. Very, because that experience also, like, yeah, I'm definitely pursuing this path, you know, like, oh, I wanna, I wanna know more. Um, I wanna be like this woman, you know, like, uh, she, she got amazing like navigational skills and

Carlien 43:52

yeah,

Alessandro 43:53

yeah. She's just like an amazing energy.

Carlien 43:56

So the fire started

Alessandro 43:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the holy fire, like that first spark. Yeah.

Carlien 44:03

Yeah. Or

Alessandro 44:04

Or maybe the second spark, but still, yeah, very early.

Carlien 44:07

It's nice how you say, looking beyond some kind of fail.

Alessandro 44:14

yeah. Also looking beyond your own frame of

Carlien 44:16

reference. Huh? Yeah.

Alessandro 44:17

It, it doesn't have to be really vague,

Carlien 44:20

it's just,

Alessandro 44:20

You, you, you think, you know.

Carlien 44:22

Yeah. spot

Alessandro 44:25

down is down. Uh,

Carlien 44:26

Yeah.

Alessandro 44:27

black is black, white is white, and then po

Carlien 44:29

Yeah. Suddenly like There's a new world

Alessandro 44:33

Cracks open

Carlien 44:33

Yeah.

Alessandro 44:34

uh, yeah.

Carlien 44:35

I always think about this song from Alladin when he starts singing a whole new World. If you have ever had a psychedelic experience and you listen to that song, you, you cannot.

Alessandro 44:48

yeah. It got a different meaning then.

Carlien 44:51

Yeah. You cannot un hear it anymore. Uh, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, although it's kind of impossible to explain to people who have not experienced it, what it is, I think that's a very nice description, looking beyond something that, you know.

Alessandro 45:14

Yeah.

Carlien 45:15

Um, yeah.

Alessandro 45:16

Yeah. Diving into the unknown, huh? Yeah.

Carlien 45:18

Yeah. And, um, yeah. And so then you spent eight years with that woman?

Alessandro 45:27

Yeah. On and off. But that was like the main, uh, yeah.

Carlien 45:31

yeah. And how did it, how did you start guiding?

Alessandro 45:36

Well, so those eight years were like a, uh, a lot of experiencing, uh, integrating those, experiencing, uh, experiences, um, learning like from within yourself, like, uh, how a human works, how the brain works, how emotions work,

Carlien 45:56

Yeah. How things

Alessandro 45:59

get stuck or unstuck.

Carlien 46:01

Yeah. So

Alessandro 46:02

So, yeah, just old school experiencing learning.

Carlien 46:06

So it's experiential

Alessandro 46:08

It's super experiential. 100%. Yeah.

Carlien 46:12

Do you believe you can learn it in a different way?

Alessandro 46:16

Yeah, maybe. I, I, that would, would never work for me.

Carlien 46:20

Yeah. know if people

Alessandro 46:22

really feel safe with you, if it's all from theory.

Carlien 46:25

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 46:28

So yeah, maybe. No, no, I don't believe that.

Carlien 46:30

Yeah.

Alessandro 46:32

Yeah. But yeah. Um, so, um, one of the last really deep initiation, initiations and uh, um, uh, purifications with her, um, was, um, uh, before she died, I mean, was, um, I did, um, I went for

Carlien 46:56

a

Alessandro 46:59

A cleansing of a month. Like I, I, I decided I'm gonna do iboga.

Carlien 47:04

iboga. Mm-hmm. That's

Alessandro 47:05

like the African root, also very psychedelic. Yeah. It's one of the oldest and strongest psychedelics on this planet. Mm-hmm. Ale that we know of. That has like a, a really old, also tradition and, uh, yeah. Usage. super intense. Super deep. It knocks you out for like three days. purifying and visionary states and healing in the west. We know it. For addiction, for treating

Carlien 47:36

Yeah. Against addiction, right. Yeah.

Alessandro 47:39

Um, but um,

Carlien 47:41

Yeah, there's

Alessandro 47:42

it's more, there's more to that, uh, plant. There's

Carlien 47:44

very nice, uh, sorry, small intermed, but there's a very nice documentary on, uh, BBC, I think it's called Iboga Nights. Um, and it's about, um, a man who is addicted to heroin. Mm-hmm. And he tries to get rid of it through Iboga, and he kind of makes, uh, a documentary out of it, like a journalism. Yeah. It's super interesting. Has

Alessandro 48:14

very high in, uh, success rate. Yeah. Yeah. With treating addiction.

Carlien 48:19

Yeah, because I,

Alessandro 48:20

I

Carlien 48:21

I read it's mostly because not only it can shift your perspective towards, to the, the addiction as such, but it also helps a lot suppressing the Yeah.

Alessandro 48:34

Yeah. The physical, uh, the

Carlien 48:36

Yeah. The withdrawal, um, effects, which makes it very unique versus other

Alessandro 48:42

Yeah. It's, uh, they're studying it, like it's very studied and, uh, yeah. You have clinics like Yeah. In parts of the world where, where it's, uh, legal. Yeah.

Carlien 48:51

Yeah.

Alessandro 48:51

Uh, iboga clinics, it's a thing.

Carlien 48:54

I just came back from, uh, Mexico. There's a really big one, uh, beyond, uh, official Iboga. Clinic. Clinic. So you wanted to do I Iboga. Sorry. Iboga. So, uh,

Alessandro 49:08

uh, I was, let's say, studying for, uh, eight years, uh, with this teacher, ayahuasca. I, at some point heard about Iboga. Uh, obviously I was like super intrigued, because yeah, the way I saw it is like, okay, I'm, I don't have formal schooling, but I'm like, learning from these plans. Mm-hmm. And like, iboga was for me, like, uh,

Carlien 49:34

Uh, the master thesis?

Alessandro 49:36

Yeah. Yeah. Like, uh, like, yeah, okay, let's, let's take that initiation, or let's learn from that

Carlien 49:42

point. Yeah.

Alessandro 49:43

uh, from that process. So I prepared for a month, uh,

Carlien 49:49

when you see prepared,

Alessandro 49:51

that means, uh, like dieting in a, in a specific

Carlien 49:55

way, what you eat.

Alessandro 49:56

Yeah. And then working with plans that just prepare you, uh, purify you, support

Carlien 50:01

you supplements Ali then still plants. Oh, yeah.

Alessandro 50:05

yeah. Just making teas, bathing in it,

Carlien 50:08

Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Alessandro 50:09

uh, yeah. Old school preparation. then I did, um, a combo. Yeah. The chrono like, uh, we

Carlien 50:20

It's okay. Combo

Alessandro 50:21

is like, it's come, uh, it will come back later. Yeah. Um,

Carlien 50:27

but.

Alessandro 50:29

yeah, extreme, uh, like preparation. Yeah. And then I did the bogar, which

Carlien 50:35

with her

Alessandro 50:37

No, no, no, no. Just, just a random spot. Uh oh. Um, no, uh, I don't remember the, uh, organization.

Carlien 50:51

Yeah.

Alessandro 50:52

Um. It was in Dante, in North Holland. Yeah. The north of the Netherlands. Like I'm, yeah, I forgot about it. But, um, I felt safe with the, with, with people there. Uh, it was like a three day in the dark Iboga retreat. Yeah. So I went in and, uh, yeah, it, yeah, it did what it promised, like, uh, I, I could speak from, uh, yeah. A life like before Iboga and after Iboga, like

Carlien 51:29

it was, now you're selling it. It was

Alessandro 51:31

extremely deep transformational experience. Mm-hmm. Obviously the experience itself, but yeah, it took me like two years to integrate, or three years like to really integrate that experience and yeah, the integration, like I discovered Kambo. As my medicine. Mm-hmm.

Carlien 51:55

Like

Alessandro 51:56

after Iboga, I became a father, uh, and yeah, because of, uh, uh, the Iboga experience and, and, uh, meeting Kambo.

Carlien 52:08

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 52:09

Uh, something shifted in me like, okay.

Carlien 52:13

Uh,

Alessandro 52:14

my teacher obviously around that period died.

Carlien 52:17

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 52:17

And all those things together, like, uh, it wasn't even a choice. Like it became clear to me like, I need to start working with people.

Carlien 52:26

Yeah. Up until then you were not guiding, you were going through a ginormous personal process. Yeah,

Alessandro 52:34

Yeah, yeah. Just my own

Carlien 52:35

thought

Alessandro 52:37

and then, and then boom, suddenly I had a, a purpose.

Carlien 52:42

Yeah.

Alessandro 52:44

I felt, uh, That service, like Yeah. Uh, was a super, like, good thing to do. Like, I need to be of service obviously because out of gratefulness for my teacher.

Carlien 52:58

mm-hmm.

Alessandro 52:59

Like if, if even I can, like,

Carlien 53:03

do

Alessandro 53:03

even for one person, what, what she did for me, like why, why wouldn't I do that? Yeah.

Carlien 53:10

Yeah.

Alessandro 53:11

it was just, it wasn't a choice. It was just like, boom. A gate and like, do you want to walk through it or not? I was like, I don't even have a choice. Like, uh,

Carlien 53:22

yeah. gratefulness for Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 53:26

I would do it for the rest of my life.

Carlien 53:27

Yeah. Wow. Beautiful.

Alessandro 53:29

Yeah.

Carlien 53:31

So you said Yeah, the Iboga experience was life changing. Yeah. And shortly after I discovered Kambo

Alessandro 53:45

Well, I did combo with others to prepare, ah,

Carlien 53:49

ah,

Alessandro 53:50

myself for the iboga. But then after the Iboga, like, uh, yeah, I just felt like, wow, this is a medicine I can work with

Carlien 54:00

Yeah. And maybe because people are listening and it might become a bit, Chinese word is kambo

Alessandro 54:07

So kambo is the secretion of a, a tree frog from the

Carlien 54:12

Mm-hmm. uses

Alessandro 54:15

secretion to protect itself from the sun and from, uh, yeah.

Carlien 54:21

Predators.

Alessandro 54:24

Um, but when we do it, like, it's a purification, yeah, it's like a realignment. It pushes your body into a, a super uncomfortable, super challenging, uh, experience. Um, which, um, just realigns you, resets your, uh, system. It's not psychedelic. Yeah. It's, it's very pragmatic. It just cleanses you. Yeah. Uh, and tries to Yeah. Set your body up like, new.

Carlien 55:01

it's like a big reset. Right. A very physical reset.

Alessandro 55:05

Very acute.

Carlien 55:07

Yeah. Physical

Alessandro 55:08

reset. We just, yeah.

Carlien 55:12

And

Alessandro 55:12

create space, like, most of the people, uh, feel energy, they feel like peace, they feel very close to themselves afterwards.

Carlien 55:21

Yeah. cleans, yeah. Your mess. And so you have the secretion and do you eat it? Do you drink? I'm, I'm asking, I'm asking for the people. Yeah, I get

Alessandro 55:32

get that. 'cause obviously you had your experience

Carlien 55:36

Yeah.

Alessandro 55:36

You.

Carlien 55:36

can do a little side trick, uh, in a minute,

Alessandro 55:40

But, um, yeah. Um, you, you make very superficial, small burnings, like on the, on the top of your skin, so it needs to go into the lymphatic system. and then,

Carlien 55:55

yeah. System. It's the famous Campbell spots.

Alessandro 55:57

Yeah. The

Carlien 55:58

You will, yeah. You'll recognize people who have done Campbell for at least a few months.

Alessandro 56:05

Sometimes when I come, uh, in places where a lot of people, uh, yeah. Came for combo, like I can really, like, in the summer you can like see like all the combo dots on

Carlien 56:14

the

Alessandro 56:15

on the arms, and like, I'm like, wow.

Carlien 56:18

So, and then you on, on those little burning dots, you

Alessandro 56:22

put the secretion.

Carlien 56:23

Yeah. And then,

Alessandro 56:24

and then the process starts. It's very, yeah, it happens very fast.

Carlien 56:29

Yeah. Within fire,

Alessandro 56:31

like you, you, you just,

Carlien 56:34

just, and, and what might people experience?

Alessandro 56:39

Yeah. Super. Uh, like, it's like a very feverish,

Carlien 56:43

mm-hmm.

Alessandro 56:44

mm-hmm. Uh, maybe, uh, in a way, like when you drink too much mm-hmm. Like, it's, it's very nauseating.

Carlien 56:54

Yeah.

Alessandro 56:57

annoying. Like, it's really uncomfortable.

Carlien 57:00

Yeah.

Alessandro 57:02

you start your, your heart starts pounding. Like your, your mucus glance swell up a, a little bit. Um, you start sweating, crying, uh, puking,

Carlien 57:16

Yeah,

Alessandro 57:17

shitting like,

Carlien 57:18

yeah.

Alessandro 57:18

it finds a

Carlien 57:19

It ain't pretty. It ain't pretty.

Alessandro 57:21

No. But you have something that's called like the ka glow. So afterwards when it settles down.

Carlien 57:29

Yeah, you

Alessandro 57:30

know, your energy, the light in your eyes. yeah. Combo glow.

Carlien 57:36

Okay. Yeah. That's, uh,

Alessandro 57:39

very empowering. Uh,

Carlien 57:40

mm.

Alessandro 57:41

uh, traditionally they also use it as a, like, fertility Oh, medicine. And

Carlien 57:45

Oh, wow. Yeah.

Alessandro 57:46

it's a thing. You have a thing like, uh, combo babies. They, they

Carlien 57:50

You

Alessandro 57:50

it, uh, me too. Like I, uh, I worked with couples who specifically like, wanted to

Carlien 57:57

to Yeah, get a baby

Alessandro 58:00

Clean up their act and, uh, like connect, uh, before, uh, getting pregnant or even had difficulty, um,

Carlien 58:08

yeah.

Alessandro 58:09

uh, with fertility, like fertility problems and boom babies.

Carlien 58:13

Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now you're gonna have a lot of clients after.

Alessandro 58:18

It's, it's a thing. It's, it's a real thing.

Carlien 58:21

And, um, how long does it last?

Alessandro 58:26

Well, uh, yeah, with me personally, like, uh, yeah, I take my time to talk with you, to, to walk into that experience, uh, so you feel safe, but experience itself, like it's 15 to 20 minutes of extreme, uh, intense, uh, discomfort. And then just, uh, uh, coming back from that takes maybe another 20 minutes.

Carlien 58:52

Yeah. It's pretty

Alessandro 58:53

a bit. yeah, people book two hours with me,

Carlien 58:59

Yeah. For a

Alessandro 59:00

session, let's say, which takes time and uh,

Carlien 59:03

yeah. You do it

Alessandro 59:05

So I would say it takes two, two hours and then they're good to go.

Carlien 59:08

Yeah.

Alessandro 59:09

because again, traditionally it's also used as a hunter medicine, so they do ka and then boom, they go hunt.

Carlien 59:16

Yeah. Oh, wow. So in the

Alessandro 59:18

West we have a different, uh, like Yeah. Different challenges and problems. So often when people do combo here afterwards, they're very peaceful and tired. Ah,

Carlien 59:29

Ah, yeah. Yeah.

Alessandro 59:30

They wanna literally go to sleep or like, oh, I wanna,

Carlien 59:33

yeah.

Alessandro 59:34

I wanna like, uh, walk in the forest, or pot or something because

Carlien 59:39

Yeah. Because it's intense physically. Yeah.

Alessandro 59:41

in the west, yeah, we're all

Carlien 59:43

Yeah.

Alessandro 59:46

bordering,

Carlien 59:47

yeah, burnouts. And so maybe a little, uh, side trek, yeah. Combo.

Alessandro 59:56

Um, I had a, like, like I said earlier, um, every medicine has a character. Yeah. And I believe like, uh, if you work with medicine, that you should work with a medicine that's, uh. That suits you. Yeah. That you kind of have the same Yeah. Uh, characteristics as that medicine.

Carlien 1:00:17

And how would you describe Kambo

Alessandro 1:00:20

Combo is very, um, trickster. Like it's a trickster.

Carlien 1:00:28

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:00:29

Like, I always perceive it as, uh, like a, a creature with a big smile,

Carlien 1:00:35

like the frog,

Alessandro 1:00:36

a bit like the cat from Alice in Wonderland.

Carlien 1:00:38

Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alessandro 1:00:39

this big smile and like teasing and, uh, a bit shadow worky, you know? Yeah.

Carlien 1:00:45

Uh,

Alessandro 1:00:46

but, uh, very strong, uh, very warm, big heart,

Carlien 1:00:51

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:00:53

a leader,

Carlien 1:00:54

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:00:56

um, very direct, like cut the crap, like no nonsense.

Carlien 1:01:01

Mm-hmm. yeah. Maybe a, a little

Alessandro 1:01:05

like a machete, you know. Oh,

Carlien 1:01:07

Oh yeah. Wow. Going from the trickster to a machete.

Alessandro 1:01:13

Yeah. But with a big heart. Yeah. So it's not gonna cut something that, yeah. Doesn't need to be just fuck around with you for no

Carlien 1:01:23

Yeah. Maybe, um, a little side notes. I also tried it with you actually. Yeah. Um, and I was convinced, uh, I'm always a bit naive going into these things, so, uh, he told me like, yeah, yeah, it's good for eczema. And I have quite, uh, some eczema already for my entire life. So I said, oh, yeah, let, let's go for it. Uh, but then it turned out to last. I think almost four hours. I

Alessandro 1:01:53

I had to cancel all my

Carlien 1:01:55

appoint.

Alessandro 1:01:55

that day.

Carlien 1:01:58

Uh, but that was exceptional. Right?

Alessandro 1:02:00

That was exceptional. Like

Carlien 1:02:02

not to scare off people usually. No. The peak is half an hour max. Right?

Alessandro 1:02:09

Yeah. I, yeah.

Carlien 1:02:12

with KaVo, like, let's

Alessandro 1:02:12

say it's a bit like 13 years now. Yeah. That I work with it 13, 14 years. Mm-hmm. And you were the only one

Carlien 1:02:20

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:02:21

That had like, that kind of an experience, but it happens. I heard about it from other practitioners, but I never had that up until, uh, your session.

Carlien 1:02:31

Yeah. Yeah. Literally thought like, so, so he put the, the, the secretion on my leg because I had the dots on my leg. It went in and it, I felt it within two seconds in my head already. So it was rush. To my head. And then I, I felt, the first thing I felt was everything inflating, like my face was inflating, uh, swelling. Uh, and then my throat was, and, and then I thought, oh my God, this is it. I forgot to tell him. I have so many allergies. So I was thinking, oh, did I probably have a super big allergy for this thing? But, um, I, I, I was really, I think that's the only way to deal with it. I was really telling myself, yeah, just trust the process. Trust the process. This is

Alessandro 1:03:21

yeah,

Carlien 1:03:21

you did, this is probably normal. So

Alessandro 1:03:25

It doesn't happen often, but, uh, yeah, it's not weird also at the same and I still, uh, if you look at it, I'm not saying it was all combo. Yeah. But if you, if you look at your trajectory, like a lot of stuff happened there,

Carlien 1:03:39

Yeah. After that combo. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alessandro 1:03:42

You, you made some crazy choices. You, you really went

Carlien 1:03:45

like, yeah.

Alessandro 1:03:47

deeper into your passions and, uh,

Carlien 1:03:49

yeah.

Alessandro 1:03:51

direction.

Carlien 1:03:52

Yeah. Maybe I should try it again. Yeah.

Alessandro 1:03:55

Yeah. Traditionally, or maybe not traditionally, but uh, often they do it three times.

Carlien 1:04:00

Yeah. within

Alessandro 1:04:03

Within three days, within a month, within three months, within three years,

Carlien 1:04:06

okay. Yeah. It doesn't really matter. Different of working. Yeah.

Alessandro 1:04:12

Yeah. I used to have two, two sessions to

Carlien 1:04:14

together. Yeah. When I get enough courage, I will apply again.

Alessandro 1:04:19

it's not gonna be the same.

Carlien 1:04:20

You should,

Alessandro 1:04:20

It's never

Carlien 1:04:21

you should increase the rate though, because I don't think you made a lot of money on

Alessandro 1:04:26

No. Yeah. That was an investment.

Carlien 1:04:31

Yeah. Uh, so, so was Campbell the first, let's say medicine that you started?

Alessandro 1:04:40

Yeah. So

Carlien 1:04:41

guiding people in

Alessandro 1:04:42

first, I learned the medicine by doing it a lot.

Carlien 1:04:47

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:04:48

I. Um, I specifically didn't want to like learn it from somebody. I was like, okay, I have eight years of this basis now. Like, I have this

Carlien 1:04:59

frame. Yeah.

Alessandro 1:05:01

let, I just want to connect from what I know now Yeah. With this medicine. which means also again, uh, preparing and, building a space and, uh, just going through the experience myself,

Carlien 1:05:16

Yeah. A lot.

Alessandro 1:05:17

a lot. And then, yeah, for that first round, like of serving was like asking friends, like, are you interested? Yeah. I found this medicine. Um, are

Carlien 1:05:28

Are you nervous?

Alessandro 1:05:30

Okay.

Carlien 1:05:30

Okay. Nice.

Alessandro 1:05:32

No, because yeah, I, uh, I took my time with it. I felt, yeah. That's gonna sound a bit shamanic, but like, uh, I felt a friendship. Yeah. Uh, with this medicine. Um, um. A shared characteristic and, uh, I felt very much at home. Uh,

Carlien 1:05:50

Yeah. Do you ever feel nervous with any type of guiding because you have been guiding Yeah,

Alessandro 1:05:56

Yeah.

Carlien 1:05:58

quite a

Alessandro 1:05:59

I don't, I don't even like know. I, I never feel nervous. Yeah. It, it gets heated sometimes. Sometimes it becomes intense, but Yeah. You know, huh? We work side, we work shoulder to shoulder. Like I'm, I'm relaxed.

Carlien 1:06:15

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's important in this field because when the guide gets nervous,

Alessandro 1:06:23

gets

Carlien 1:06:24

who else is getting nervous? Yeah.

Alessandro 1:06:26

Yeah. Yeah. You need to create safe spaces.

Carlien 1:06:29

Yeah. Okay. Let's talk a bit, maybe now I'm jumping a bit, but that's cool. Um, at some point you started being off service, like passing on. Everything you learned and, and sharing these medicines With people. Um, you already mentioned it a few times, creating why is creating safe spaces so important and like, maybe make it very practical? I get a lot of questions from people, uh, who have mushrooms, for instance. 'cause it's so easily available, you can buy it online. And who ask me, shall I try it at home? Mm-hmm. What, what would you say? And, mm-hmm.

Alessandro 1:07:19

Yeah.

Carlien 1:07:20

Um,

Alessandro 1:07:22

as a professional I would say no, but at the same time, I'm not really, I'm not super against recreational use.

Carlien 1:07:32

Mm-hmm. But,

Alessandro 1:07:32

But, uh, um, yeah, you know the stories too, like, people try it and then at some point they go into this little, uh. Negative space or Yeah, like the medicine. Yeah. Brings the medicine

Carlien 1:07:48

Yeah. And,

Alessandro 1:07:49

and, and then people Yeah. Go into a bad trip or a, a negative experience. sooner or later, like at some point. Like, you hear those stories a lot, huh? Yes. That's why it's also a cliche. That's why it's a thing. Bad trip.

Carlien 1:08:07

would, would you say that the real full-blown bad trip is mostly a recreational, following a recreational context? Yeah.

Alessandro 1:08:15

Or an unprofessional, uh, setting?

Carlien 1:08:18

Yeah. even like

Alessandro 1:08:22

recreational is always more risk. Always more risk, yeah. Yeah. Uh, luckily, uh, most of the time recreationally, they don't use high dosages.

Carlien 1:08:32

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:08:33

So, so the risk is a bit, lower.

Carlien 1:08:37

Um,

Alessandro 1:08:38

But yeah, even if you go to like, yeah, unprofessional settings, um, people serving who that shouldn't serve maybe. Yeah.

Carlien 1:08:47

yeah,

Alessandro 1:08:48

don't mean that as a, like arrogantly, but not, deciding who,

Carlien 1:08:53

who

Alessandro 1:08:54

can do it and who not. But yeah, if there's no safe space, no guidance, no support, no integrate, like integration process. That's guided. Yeah.

Carlien 1:09:08

yeah. Let's talk about integration in a minute, but when you say, uh, unguided, I would rather not recommend it, especially the higher doses because when it, when it all get goes well, it's no problem. But once you go a bit in the darker areas, yeah.

Alessandro 1:09:28

Once the medicine, uh, behaves like a medicine, yeah.

Carlien 1:09:33

Then it can, it's nicer. It's not even nicer. It's, it's, it's safer to. Of course to have someone,

Alessandro 1:09:41

you know, I consider it a medicine. Yeah. I, I don't, I will never call it a drug or a recreational thing.

Carlien 1:09:49

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:09:50

Um, for me it's a medicine.

Carlien 1:09:53

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 1:09:53

That's how I learned it. That's how I work with it.

Carlien 1:09:59

Um,

Alessandro 1:10:01

it's a medicine, so that means, uh, preparation, a process, integration. Mm-hmm. Like you're, you are dealing with uh, yeah. Very vulnerable and, uh, traumatic stuff. Like people Yeah. People come to us.

Carlien 1:10:19

Yeah. know,

Alessandro 1:10:21

the intentions, huh?

Carlien 1:10:22

yeah,

Alessandro 1:10:25

and yeah, you need to respect that

Carlien 1:10:27

Mm. it

Alessandro 1:10:30

to be effective, I believe. Yeah. You need. Strong, uh, and, uh, capable, uh mm-hmm. You need to go in, you know? Yeah. You can do like a,

Carlien 1:10:46

and how, because it's, it's very easily set for you, like Yeah. You need, uh, guidance and preferably professional. Yeah. Qualified. Like, but yeah, of course. We just said like, yeah, none of the theory can actually teach you to become a good guy. So people should not be looking for diplomas. Uh, the first

Alessandro 1:11:13

rule would be a very experienced person. Like, like that's it. You need to have experience. You need to know what's happening. You need to know, uh, if a person is like in an intense trip, you need to know what that is.

Carlien 1:11:32

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:11:33

How that feels. What you, what you like in, in such a moment and what you don't like. you really need to know

Carlien 1:11:41

from the inside

Alessandro 1:11:41

out.

Carlien 1:11:43

Yeah. So, so

Alessandro 1:11:45

so experience

Carlien 1:11:45

guides with a lot of own experience. Not per se guiding, but in the first place in experiencing this same medicine. That is something you can qualify. You really

Alessandro 1:11:57

need to know the medicine and, and there is this, uh, yeah. Mystery also, like you cannot know, uh, you can know a lot about life, but you never can know everything. But still there needs to be a strong root, you know,

Carlien 1:12:11

yeah.

Alessandro 1:12:14

yeah. Knowing.

Carlien 1:12:15

What else would you say if people are listening? Like they can ask for experience, other things. They can pay attention to Mm.

Alessandro 1:12:26

does this person feel like, I don't know how you say drag cracked.

Carlien 1:12:32

Mm. Space holding power. I dunno.

Alessandro 1:12:38

Um, you, you just need

Carlien 1:12:41

if they can

Alessandro 1:12:42

like, is this a safe person? Like, is this a capable, strong, like, can this person carry me on his shoulders and uh, walk me through this jungle? You know?

Carlien 1:12:53

Yeah. It's basically a trust Yeah. Question,

Alessandro 1:12:57

Yeah. Yeah. You really need to like, ask, ask stuff, you know?

Carlien 1:13:02

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:13:04

Uh, test your guide. Are you a safe person? Yeah.

Carlien 1:13:09

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:13:11

can you hold me when I'm vulnerable?

Carlien 1:13:14

Yeah. Um,

Alessandro 1:13:17

can you navigate like me when I get intense?

Carlien 1:13:22

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then you said, okay. I, I never guide people. Just in the experience, there's always a process, like a preparation. Integration. I've heard you saying that many times. I think that's very important. But maybe short, what is the preparation for you?

Alessandro 1:13:44

Preparation is, uh, getting to know each other also.

Carlien 1:13:46

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 1:13:47

But, uh, from the POV of the, the person, like Yeah. Getting to know why

Carlien 1:13:56

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:13:57

you want to do this. Yeah.

Carlien 1:13:58

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:13:59

getting to know a bit more your, Problem.

Carlien 1:14:06

Mm-hmm. Like Yeah.

Alessandro 1:14:09

Yeah. To, to, to go, like, to already, like, talk about that

Carlien 1:14:14

If people say, I don't have a problem. I'm, I'm just curious. yeah,

Alessandro 1:14:19

Uh, but yeah, curiosity is actually also a very valid, uh, I like curiosity because you, you, you, you never like. Curious about everything. So I believe in a, like a deeper layer, like if you're curious, there is also something, uh, underneath that layer. Which makes you curious mm-hmm. To go that way.

Carlien 1:14:42

Yeah. Yeah. And then, um, people have the experience. retreat, for instance, and then integration. I think that's, that's the one thing many people don't really know. Um, which many organizations also don't really

Alessandro 1:15:08

they don't really provide it.

Carlien 1:15:10

provide, no, most organizations they just offer you

Alessandro 1:15:14

talk

Carlien 1:15:17

Yeah. In the best case or just, just a trip. They make sure you don't get into your car while doing it, but that's kind of it.

Alessandro 1:15:26

Yeah. Some, some, yeah. Often it's to be polite. Yeah. They, they, they offer it. Like you, you can integrate, but there is no practical like, real integration process

Carlien 1:15:37

Yeah. Yeah.

Alessandro 1:15:39

I'm happy we find that very important.

Carlien 1:15:44

So explain a bit what is, what is integration? Because for many people it'll be Chinese

Alessandro 1:15:50

Well, a trip, uh, a trip is, uh, yeah. It's a,

Carlien 1:15:55

It's

Alessandro 1:15:55

a big

Carlien 1:15:55

thing. Yeah.

Alessandro 1:15:56

very intense, it goes deep.

Carlien 1:15:59

It, uh,

Alessandro 1:16:00

it affects you. Yeah.

Carlien 1:16:01

Yeah. very

Alessandro 1:16:07

clear, uh, and felt, but it can also be like so visionary that you like what, what, what happened? Like, what was all of that? integration is to make what I've experienced, Practical

Carlien 1:16:25

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:16:26

to become pragmatic with, with what I felt and saw and learned.

Carlien 1:16:31

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:16:32

Because again, uh, pointing to like the, the word medicine, it's meant for, uh, yeah. Healing for, uh, learning to get inspired, uh,

Carlien 1:16:49

beyond

Alessandro 1:16:49

the re recreational part or the curiosity. Uh, you go, most of the time you go into a trip because

Carlien 1:16:58

Yeah. You need something.

Alessandro 1:17:00

Yeah. Eh, your life is maybe good, maybe not good, maybe it's missing something. Maybe you have, uh, a need, uh, a goal, a dream, uh, or a fear standing in between that, um, this trip Yeah.

Carlien 1:17:21

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 1:17:21

And then you go into your life. And you have to make it pragmatic. What did that do for you? Like, uh, what does that mean? Uh, if you saw this or you experienced that, or you let go of some, uh, some stuff, what are you gonna do with it? How is it gonna positively affect your actual life,

Carlien 1:17:43

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:17:44

work, life, family life? You as a lover or a, a friend or a fellow human.

Carlien 1:17:50

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 1:17:52

That's integration.

Carlien 1:17:55

And um, yeah. So to make it really practical and actually do the work, do the changes, have the conversation you need to have. How would you. Way. If, if the whole psychedelic value is preparation, trip integration, how would you split the weight into the importance of each element?

Alessandro 1:18:27

Uh, for me, integration is the most important.

Carlien 1:18:29

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:18:32

The trip itself is like, yeah, you need to create safety within yourself, create a safe space, and then you can, uh, yeah. uh, bring people into the psychedelic

Carlien 1:18:44

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:18:46

experience. But that's like what you're doing in, in that point is like holding space, like keeping them safe. But you're, you're letting the medicine do the work. And then afterwards you make sense of it.

Carlien 1:19:02

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:19:03

So, uh, that's important. Obviously it's the Kato, like, uh, yeah, that's where they come. Uh, but from my own point of view, like, yeah. To become a very pragmatic human being is the most important thing because otherwise

Carlien 1:19:26

yeah.

Alessandro 1:19:26

it's just re recreational or you're just having, uh, like

Carlien 1:19:30

Yeah. It's a difference between

Alessandro 1:19:32

Yeah.

Carlien 1:19:33

trip and more therapeutic trip. Right? And, uh, yeah, and I was just thinking of, maybe we can compare it to the trip is when you go to the doctor and he tells you this is what you need to do. Yeah. But then you go home

Alessandro 1:19:50

and then you

Carlien 1:19:50

and if you don't do the exercises, for instance, yeah. You will not change anything.

Alessandro 1:19:55

nothing, nothing changes. Uh, you slowly fall back to your,

Carlien 1:20:00

to your mm-hmm.

Alessandro 1:20:01

mm-hmm. Or original state and then

Carlien 1:20:02

yeah.

Alessandro 1:20:04

nothing happened. Your problem is still there. Yes.

Carlien 1:20:06

Yes.

Alessandro 1:20:06

Looking you in the face.

Carlien 1:20:08

Yes. So it's

Alessandro 1:20:09

nothing changed. Uh, and that's also disrespectful towards the medicine and towards yourself, eh?

Carlien 1:20:16

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:20:17

Why would you?

Carlien 1:20:19

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Uh, I'm curious, uh, I think we can talk for three hours, but let's, let's,

Alessandro 1:20:29

it.

Carlien 1:20:31

um,

Alessandro 1:20:33

we can always do a, a second edition.

Carlien 1:20:35

A sequel. Maybe one last question, which I think might help people. Um, as you have many years of experience now in guiding people in all type of psychedelics and also doing the integration work with them, um, you will have seen a lot of. You have seen everything. Like, I think in, in your situation, like there's not a lot, maybe once in a while or four, four hour

Alessandro 1:21:08

me.

Carlien 1:21:09

gabo trip, uh, you've seen a lot of things. So it is good because when we go back to the biggest fear why people don't, even when they're very curious, they don't dare to do psychedelics. Is is the, the, the famous bad trip. cliches,

Alessandro 1:21:28

are also very big on them, huh? Like you're trying to educate people a lot about them even more than me. Uh,

Carlien 1:21:35

so, so let's say, what do you do when people get, because mostly a bad trip would start from some kind of anxiety that pops up. Yeah. And how can you, and we just set. Alone, there's a much higher risk of heading a bad trip because nobody's guiding. What's the role of a guide in mitigating a bad trip?

Alessandro 1:22:05

Well, first of all, um, reframing it. Mm-hmm. Huh? We do that often when we do the

Carlien 1:22:11

the

Alessandro 1:22:12

or the, the, sharing before we start. I do a little, uh,

Carlien 1:22:17

yeah. Thing. And, don't even

Alessandro 1:22:22

call it a bad trip.

Carlien 1:22:23

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:22:24

I, I, I would say, uh, it's good to see it as a challenging experience.

Carlien 1:22:29

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 1:22:30

So you have like ecstasy, you have like, wow. It was very visual and it was beautiful, and I felt awe and, and yeah.

Carlien 1:22:37

yeah.

Alessandro 1:22:38

But yeah, it can be challenging. Yeah. And the way you react to that, to the challenges, uh, it makes, it makes it a bad or a good trip, but I don't think in bad or good. Yeah. I, I'm just thinking in like, uh, it was a,

Carlien 1:22:58

it

Alessandro 1:22:58

was a beautiful invitation or it was a, a d it was a, a challenging experience.

Carlien 1:23:05

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:23:07

Um, we as facilitators. You experienced it too, eh, now the last years, uh, sometimes just being there, sitting next to this person holding their hand. Yeah. Like, just, it's also, uh, like, it, it connects with a bigger vision I have, like, uh, uh, because yeah, you, you ask me like, uh, what are you actually like, uh, how do like people perceive you? Like, uh, for me, I just feel like I'm being a human. Yeah.

Carlien 1:23:38

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:23:39

I'm being like a real true human and I'm just being there for you. Yeah. As a human. Just like your grandfather or your, if you have a good experience, uh, just like your, father, mother,

Carlien 1:23:51

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:23:53

uh, a good friend, a brother, sister, whatever, like, I'm just trying to be as human as I can be. Yeah. Which I believe is a love loving,

Carlien 1:24:04

Yeah. Yeah.

Alessandro 1:24:06

strong

Carlien 1:24:07

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 1:24:09

Um, uh, as a facilitator, you also, you don't make it about you, obviously. That's for me also like a big rule, Yeah. It's not about me. I'm in full service.

Carlien 1:24:22

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 1:24:23

Um, I don't have a personal agenda as a human. I wish you the best, obviously,

Carlien 1:24:28

But

Alessandro 1:24:29

I'm not gonna decide what the best is gonna look like for you. Mm-hmm.

Carlien 1:24:33

Mm-hmm.

Alessandro 1:24:34

Um, so I'm just there in service supporting.

Carlien 1:24:38

Yeah. It.

Alessandro 1:24:40

Uh, again, in these like, in this 20 years almost, I never did like a crazy special technique or a,

Carlien 1:24:49

mm-hmm.

Alessandro 1:24:50

just, just being a human, supporting a human that's struggling or is afraid. I would say even more than the plans and the whole thing that becoming a father made me a better facilitator.

Carlien 1:25:05

Oh, wow. Yeah. In which way?

Alessandro 1:25:08

Yeah. In the most direct way, uh, you learn how to

Carlien 1:25:12

care

Alessandro 1:25:12

care and love and, uh, uh, be there for a, for a, a, let's say a helpless creature.

Carlien 1:25:19

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:25:21

Or a, a human that needs you.

Carlien 1:25:23

yeah.

Alessandro 1:25:26

So most of the times, yeah. being there

Carlien 1:25:29

Yeah. Is there a thing you definitely should not do? If there's any facilitators listening, like what would you say? Like, never ever do this when people get

Alessandro 1:25:39

I would say don't do too much. Leave space. Let the medicine work. Yeah.

Carlien 1:25:44

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:25:45

Um, do less, don't do more. Uh, don't, don't go from like, ah, okay. This problem needs this technique. Like, uh, don't make, don't go too rational.

Carlien 1:25:57

Uh,

Alessandro 1:25:58

Uh, yeah. Stay close to your instinct, to your feeling.

Carlien 1:26:02

Don't talk too much. Right.

Alessandro 1:26:04

Not at all. Preferably. Yeah. Again, it's not about you. Like, uh, these, these people, uh, are experiencing like something deep. Yeah. Uh, they're, they're facing their trauma or, uh, allowing joy for the first time in their life maybe. Yeah. Uh, let that happen. Yeah. Get out of the way. Yeah. Uh,

Carlien 1:26:25

Uh, yeah. I think that's a

Alessandro 1:26:27

it's a bit of a cliche. Uh, you can say a lot of it against it or for it, but like Yeah. Holding space. Just, just hold space.

Carlien 1:26:36

while getting out of the way.

Alessandro 1:26:38

Yeah.

Carlien 1:26:39

Yeah. I like that.

Alessandro 1:26:40

Just be here,

Carlien 1:26:42

Yeah, fool. Guess how long we talked?

Alessandro 1:26:49

I dunno. It feels like, uh, uh, 90 minutes or so.

Carlien 1:26:52

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:26:54

Really?

Carlien 1:26:54

87.

Alessandro 1:26:56

Oh, crazy. Yeah. Yeah. yeah, I feel like we covered like one 10th of what we could Yeah.

Carlien 1:27:02

Yeah. Cover. That's why

Alessandro 1:27:03

that's maybe us,

Carlien 1:27:05

we should do some sequels every now and then. Um, but this was a really nice introduction. Um, A I remember fast. Yeah. I remember you were a bit nervous, like, oh, am I gonna,

Alessandro 1:27:21

Yeah. I'm always like instinct free styling and then like, when you put like a, although I wanted to be a rapper. Yeah. If you, if you put a a mic in front of me, I'm like, uh,

Carlien 1:27:33

Yeah.

Alessandro 1:27:35

it feels like a setup now.

Carlien 1:27:36

Yeah. Yeah.

Alessandro 1:27:37

but yeah.

Carlien 1:27:38

You did well. Well,

Alessandro 1:27:40

I'm, I feel natural,

Carlien 1:27:43

Anything else you wanna add?

Alessandro 1:27:47

No, not really. Come, come find out what we are about. Yes.

Carlien 1:27:51

Yes.

Alessandro 1:27:51

I would say to the listener, uh, you're curious,

Carlien 1:27:55

And if you're in doubt,

Alessandro 1:27:56

with us.

Carlien 1:27:57

if you're in doubt, go and ask Alice. Yes. Thank you very much.

Alessandro 1:28:02

Thank you too for inviting me.

1:28:06

Thank you for listening to Alice asks if this conversation resonated with you. Hit the follow or subscribe button. It just takes two seconds, and it helps these conversations reach more curious humans like you. And that means the world to us. And if you're feeling the pull to experience a safe, guided psychedelic journey yourself. You can apply directly via our website at Ask Ellis World. That is Ask Ellis World. Our next retreat takes place on May 1st to fourth, and on June 2nd to fifth. Boats in the Netherlands. Bots are limited and we work with small groups. So if you feel ready, don't wait too long. And as always, when in doubt, go and ask Alice.