Beyond Expectations: Parenting Autism

Special Education for Autism: A Teacher Explains What Parents Should Know with Sylvia Panzer | Beyond Expectations Podcast Ep. 5

• Michelle Chabolla • Episode 5

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In Episode 5 of Beyond Expectations: Parenting Autism, Michelle Chabolla and Sean Dobson sit down with Sylvia Panzer, Greg’s former middle school special education teacher, to gain a professional perspective on supporting students with autism and other learning differences.

Sylvia shares insights from her years of experience in special education, including what effective support looks like in the classroom, the importance of patient and dedicated teachers, and how educators can help students discover their strengths and build confidence. She also reflects on her experience teaching Greg and the growth she witnessed during his school years.

Together, they discuss the realities of special education for autism, how parents and teachers can work together, and the lasting impact that belief, encouragement, and individualized support can have on a child’s development.

This episode offers valuable insight for parents navigating the school system and looking to better understand how to advocate for their child’s success.

This episode offers a meaningful look at special education through the eyes of a teacher who has devoted her career to helping students reach their potential.
This episode is proudly supported by Gregory’s Special Creations. If you are looking for thoughtful and unique gifts while supporting Greg's growing small business, visit: http://www.gregorysgifts.com

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to the podcast Beyond Expectations, Parenting Autism. Follow Michelle Shabola's journey of raising a child with autism, the challenges, victories, and rewards. If you're a parent, caregiver, or simply someone seeking to understand autism on a personal level, you're in the right place.

SPEAKER_01

All right, here we are. And I have a very special guest today, a former boss and Gregory's former special ed teacher from middle school. So I really want Sylvia to share her experience if she can in 30 minutes, 44 years of experience, and what she recommends parents to expect and not expect out of middle school, right? Right, right. Kind of overwhelming, right? Middle school is horrible for everybody, and then add a disability to it, and it kind of multiplies. So you could share with us what everybody needs to know and tell them about your experience. That would be great.

SPEAKER_02

I started teaching in 1974. Um, so it was, and I was a special education major, um, but it was before public law 94142 was in effect.

SPEAKER_01

Um what are those for people that don't know what those are?

SPEAKER_02

Um the the the special education laws. Means and the the federal mandate for special education services to be provided by local school districts.

SPEAKER_01

So before then, what was it?

SPEAKER_02

Um it was church basements, um wherever there there were there were school districts that did provide um educational services, but there were really no guidelines, no, you know, it was kind of out of the goodness of they they knew they needed to do something for these these young people, but but there were really no no um rules, no guidelines, and really no research, especially for um special education students that have more significant support needs.

SPEAKER_01

So this is where you jumped in at, huh?

SPEAKER_02

Right, right. Um, and so I my first employer was not a uh school district. Um in I moved to Colorado and um services um for the first seven years that I taught were provided through what we call um community center boards, um, which were um started by the ARC here in Colorado, the ARC. Um and um the the my classroom, my first year of teaching, I think I shared with you, was in a building that was three World War II army barracks that were joined together.

SPEAKER_01

That is just so unreal to me. So unreal.

SPEAKER_02

And I had I had 12 students, um and there was no PE, there was no music, there was no art teacher. It was me and one teaching assistant for those 12 students in a room all day. So wow. And we did have an elementary school. I taught then um students 9 to 12 um years, and um there was no playground, um, but we were not allowed to have our kids um go over to the playground at the school across the street because of flyability issues with right.

SPEAKER_01

Right. So so fast forward to what the 80s, they put them in a separate, they still separated them into those little portable buildings, right? That's when I was a child or in school, that's what they did. Yeah, um late 70s maybe.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Um, but actually what happened, cheer luck, our building was condemned by our municipal fire chief. That's we can't do this anymore. Um, and so we had no place to go. So finally, what was decided was my classroom and the um primary age students, ages six to eight, those two classes would go to an elementary school in Inglewood, Colorado. And that launched me in my career to look at how do we make these kids a part of this school? And we were the we were the first group of classes of students in Colorado, students with more significant support needs, um, that were in a public school. So we had tons of people walking through the classroom and trying to figure us out. And and and we, you know, it started with with um Cheryl and I building relationships with the general ed teachers who got to know us and then got to know our kids. And pretty soon it was like, well, we're doing this macrome project in in art. Would you do you have any of your students that would like to join us in that? And I was like, oh, sure, let's do that. You know, and pretty soon our students were participating in the Christmas programs and the Halloween parade. So um, and my students joined the sixth graders um to go see the um the Nutcracker Ballet in um downtown Denver. So you know. So that was the cutting edge of it. Wow. So fast forward, and so they kept saying um we're trying to find a building so that we can all be back together. And Cheryl and I and the families, the parents, we all agreed that's not what we want. And so then our older students moved to a junior high um the next year, and um we formed the the Goddard buddies, who um junior high students then it was seven, eight, and nine. And so those students got to know our kids. We did skating parties, we did um all kinds of activities together.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and how important was that? That was so important for everybody.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and then there were places, and we were we were so fortunate to have a principal who was looking at at the latest research, anything she could grab onto. Public law 94 went went into 94142, went in um uh 1975, my second year. So um it was the first time that our students had IEPs.

SPEAKER_03

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

And one of I remember sitting at a faculty meeting, and one of our older teachers, she said, Well, how are we gonna talk about these kids if the parents are sitting there at the table with us? Oh wow. And I said, How could we not have the parents sitting there?

SPEAKER_01

We're gonna make them cry like we did Michelle Shabola. Individual education plan, not my favorite meetings. No, that brings us fast forward to where I met you was when Gregory lost his services at elementary and fourth grade. You and I still don't know how you came to that meeting. We think we know, we're not sure. And you were like, this is not the place for him, and then you helped me move him on, and then you got him in seventh grade.

SPEAKER_02

So and and truthfully, I think what we always need to keep in mind is that move from elementary to middle school is huge for every parent of every child. Every child, yes, whether they have any kind of learning difference or not. It's terrifying. When when you look at at you know that elementary, the typical elementary model is they have that teacher that's with them all day who the same teacher, right? Right, yes, walks with them to music class and art class. So that person is always there, right, um, with them. And so parents have that one person that that they're they're going to talk to, right and meet with. And and special education for students with more significant needs can look very different depending on where you happen to land in this world. Um, and and in even in our huge school district, Jefferson County is the largest school district in the state of Colorado. And when I was teaching there, I think there were uh when I started in Jefferson County, I think there were 92,000 students in Jefferson County. So huge, huge, huge, yeah. And truthfully, programs for kids with more significant needs really look different depending on who the teacher was.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. And the school, how many times I've moved, agree. I just and I felt, and I think I shared this with you years ago, I felt that if he wasn't wanted and meaning wanted, if they didn't want to see him succeed and help him, I didn't want him at that school. That's why I changed him a couple of times. I I just didn't want, I'm not gonna force him on anybody because that's not gonna work for anybody.

SPEAKER_02

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01

So finding that right program is huge.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Well, and and the the way our our district operated was to do um what they called center programs for students who had more intensive support needs. Who, you know, we could we could um make that decision that in order to be successful, they needed they needed support throughout their school day. Right. And that have different for lots of, you know, it depends on on that individual student, what that's gonna look like.

SPEAKER_01

Right. So and putting them all in one box doesn't work for me.

SPEAKER_02

No, don't work for me. And you know, for for I mean there are people out there who still stand firm that no, we can do best by having them all together. Um, but um I I threw lots of of in-service training and attending conferences and and even working as um in technical assistants um to foster more inclusive programming. Um I I did grant work um for a few years, um and that's what we were we worked with teachers to provide more inclusive programming for students with significant support needs.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's designed.

SPEAKER_02

Um just because you know the the research shows better outcomes for students the more time they spend with their typical peers.

SPEAKER_01

Typical peers, yes, absolutely. So you came up with a circle of friends, or where did it come from?

SPEAKER_02

Um, you know, there were lots of um models for um peer tutor programs, they called them. Um, came out of Oregon, I think some of the original models. Um and it was typically at high school, they would have peer tutors that would work, work with the students. So um, you know, that model was in place. Um, and when I started teaching um in middle school in Littleton, there really wasn't anything in place in terms of any formal um peer programming or anything. And the the building administration really wasn't interested in getting anything going.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So um after after three years at that building, um, I had um people that I had worked with at the Colorado Department of Ed who shared with me that um there was going to be a new program starting at Deer Creek, and it was part of a uh a grant program that the Department of Ed was starting called the Silk Road Project, which um was putting in place inclusive models for students. Um and so we had we had the students from the begin from the beginning, um they moved a center program to that school, to Deer Creek Middle School, and then um and and we worked with with the grant staff to to put practices into place. And but there was not a model for a peer program. So I wrote a little mini grant um to get us going. Um and the Jefferson County Art gave us funding to do that.

SPEAKER_01

Oh wow, so you could have that those paras under you in that classroom and get them paid.

SPEAKER_02

Right, right. So so we started the peer program, and we um there's a group of folks from Canada, Marsha Forrest Um and Judas Snow, who started the whole model for circle of friends um in terms of a peer program.

SPEAKER_01

So and I had had the opportunity to um attend um training programs that they did at at So tell our listeners what a circle of friends program is because you and I know it because I lived it.

SPEAKER_02

You taught it and I was it and I worked it. Right, and it's a formal program. The students, um, it was a class period for the students. Um and they would come up to special needs, that's right, for the typical students, typical and we yeah, and we treated it as an elective at Deer Creek. It was it was a formal class. I was the teacher of record, the students received grades, um, and um so so it was something that was going on their permanent record. Um, but um, but it was an elective class or um exploratory, we called it, um at middle school. And um so instead of opting for art and band and uh foreign language class, our students could opt for to be in circle of friends.

SPEAKER_03

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

Um, and we started out the first year, we had 12 students and we met for one period of day.

SPEAKER_01

What year was that? What year did you start?

SPEAKER_02

That was that was in 19 um oh boy, I'm not great with time. I think it was about 94, 95, something like that. It was it was it was my second year at the school. We we did a year of you know training with teachers and everything, and and I wrote the grant for the the little mini grant for circle of friends, and so then we launched it that second year um with the blessings of the print the the principal. He was so excited about this. Um and so we started with one period a day um with 12 students, and um that was maximum because I had 12 students. I didn't want more tutors than I had students, right? Um and so um we kind of felt our way through, um, and and a lot of it was was working with them to understand, you know, a little bit about who these students were initially, and then we had them go out and start working with the students because that's what they wanted to do. Middle school kids, they're good for a little bit of lecture, and then they just need to do it. Middle school students, all middle school students, they're very hands-on. They they just want to do it, they don't want to sit and listen. Right, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01

So I know it was a great Gregory.

SPEAKER_02

Loved it. Loved it. The program grew, and again, we always kept kept it at the number of students that we had. And you know, fortunately, unfortunately, our our our um our population grew. Um, so we had you know 14 to 18 students um with significant support needs in in that that center program every year. Um but and so we could increase the number, that was a good thing, but so we typically had um 10 to 12 um circles students um each class period.

SPEAKER_01

So times times still it was a lot, it was a lot to keep up with for you for sure.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, oh yeah, but but the students and and I learned from them that what they they knew this they knew our kids because our kids were in general at classes, right? So and and as many of them that we possibly could make at work, they rode the bus to and from school with their peers. Um and so we yeah, we would have each we we we moved from semester to trimesters, um, so that the students, and that was for everyone um at the at the middle school, so they could have more explore exploratory periods. Um yeah, so so we had 40 to 55 circles students a trimester, every trimester, and you multiply that by three. So three eight.

SPEAKER_01

So we're not only keeping up with your class, you're keeping up with all those kids as well, right? Right.

SPEAKER_02

But and and the model was that that we wanted them to have three different experiences, so we split the trimester into three three periods, and so they would have a different assignment. Right. Yeah, I think they I think a trimester was like 18 weeks. So so they would they would have or it was 12, maybe 12 weeks. I can't I can't remember that, but they had requirements three different experiences for the the trimester. So I made sure that they had the experience of working individually with a student on if students needed to have academics addressed, either reading or math, um, that were individual, that was individual instruction, or they might be supported in an academic classroom, or they might be supported in an exploratory classroom. So PE or drama or choir or whatever our students chose for their exploratories. So so they got to work with different students in in different settings. That's so fun.

SPEAKER_01

And so many of your kids loved. That. I mean, you have a waiting list every oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02

When we had a new principal come in, I think he was the third principal that came in and he came to me and he said, I need to know about the circle of friends class because you're more popular than PE. And in middle school, if you're more popular than PE, you've done something.

SPEAKER_01

I just remember how important it was to for Gregory to be with those kids. And you know, it was just such an experience. And that moved on into high school at Chatfield. They had the same program, probably from you.

SPEAKER_02

Right, right, because the demand was there. Right. And so they and they do it a little differently. Um, I I think they're like uh they might be on their third teacher since um I left the district or or left Deer Creek. I didn't I I continued to to teach after I left Deer Creek. I was at I was at Deer Creek for 16 years. So wow. But um yeah, they they um that in fact one of the teachers at Deer Creek now was a circle student.

SPEAKER_01

See, that's what I know came out of it, is that a lot of them went into that field because they got a taste of it in middle school, moved on to high school and did it, and went on to become special ed teachers or just teachers in general, and then they were able to do that program where they were.

SPEAKER_02

So it's just yeah, and that's how I that's how I became interested in doing this. I babysat as a teenager, and there was a family, and they had a daughter who had an intellectual disability, and um they said, and they also had four other children younger than her, and they they asked, Would you be willing to babysit for us? and I was like, Yeah, sure, I'll babysit for you, you know, anything for a buck at that point. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and it was a buck back then. Oh no, it was it was 50 cents an hour.

SPEAKER_03

That's sad.

SPEAKER_02

I I've got a few years on you, Michelle. Maybe there's like a four cents an hour for five five children, yes. But um I got to I got to know I got to know Deb personally, and it was like this is what I want to do. And and I did exploratory teaching in my senior year and saw Deb in a classroom, and because I knew her personally, I thought she can do so much more than this, right? Than what was expected of her, right? Um, and so um it that it launched my career. That's so cool.

SPEAKER_01

My niece and pardon, my niece, you know, she came to school with you, and she's been attached to Gregory since day one. Right, right. She got her her master's in special ed, actually.

SPEAKER_02

And and I think I think making those personal connections first is going to make you such a better instructor or better support person.

SPEAKER_01

I always told every everybody that worked with Gregory. I said you love him first and then you teach him second. Because if you don't love him, he's not gonna do anything.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and and I mean, yeah, and for me, that's it's that's what it's all about is that that you know getting to know them as a person. How can you determine what needs they have until you know that person? Right.

SPEAKER_01

So if your middle school that your child's going into is not lucky enough to have a circle of friends program, but they have a centered program, you recommend the parents to look for something where they are definitely included, inclusive in the classrooms.

SPEAKER_02

I I I think if it's possible for that child, right, right. I I think and especially when you look at at outcomes, where where do we want them to end up? And sometimes that's hard, especially if you're talking to a parent of a six or seven-year-old. At that point, they they just want them in a place where they feel like they're safe and people know them and they're going to learn.

SPEAKER_01

It's it's you know, that that that that lowest point way different. Middle school, you start you start thinking about what's gonna happen when they get out of high school. It's very eye-opening, they're protected in in elementary school. It's just, you know, that's where they're at. Like you said, the teachers with them all the time. Then you throw them into middle school, then you throw them into high school, and everything's like, what are you gonna do when you grow up? What are you you know, it's very impressive for everybody, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And Colorado Department of Ed mandates that um transition planning begins at middle school for all students. You know, that's when students start taking career interest inventories and you know, and they they there's an actual document that follows that student all through middle school and high school, um, with you know, career assessments and and interest assessments, all those things, and to make sure that they're they're getting their classes and doing what they need to be doing in order for that to happen. Right. So, of course, that has to happen for our students because well, one thing we do know is that it takes a whole lot more work in terms of getting those quality outcomes for our students.

SPEAKER_01

Well, absolutely, because look at Gregory, you and I never thought he'd be have a woodworking business. I mean, we don't know. We knew it was very intricate and very um a perfectionist, definitely, right? He didn't want to make a mistake ever. But um what I recommend is let them try everything if they're if they have any type of disability, let them try anything, and and and that is really what the middle school model is for all kids.

SPEAKER_02

The middle school model is a time for exploring, right? Um that's why I mean some schools call art and music, you know, and PE electives or um specials, or I don't know. Right. But the middle school model, those are called exploratories, and it's a chance for them to try a foreign language, to try art, to try music, um, to try um just try stuff, just try stuff and and see see what what's gonna trip your trigger, you know? Yeah, exactly. In terms of oh, I really like music.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, oh Michael, that's where Michael picked up the trumpet. He played it all through high school and yeah, middle school.

SPEAKER_02

And sometimes maybe that doesn't go into any a career, but uh I mean there's lots of research about the effects of playing a musical instrument or voice um and and how that helps um your your helps you in so many ways.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And not just being a member of an orchestra or being a music teacher. Yeah. And so yeah, and so so it is an opportunity for to explore stuff. Now, one of the things, one of the exploratories, and this was for eighth graders, was to be a student assistant. Um and um but but when we were get when when we were getting to know Gregory, um the OT who had worked with him, um she was she was wonderful and really was did a great job of helping a lot of students make that transition from elementary to middle. Um and and then I had a speech language person who worked with the students at elementary, and so it really helped with the the transition um because they have some information, and one of the things that the OT Peggy had said was he really needs movement as a part of his game. Yep, and and so every day, and um, and also just that the the joint compression lifting and pushing, and and so she said, you know, it really would be good if if he if he could work like in the library or or do you know something that's gonna give him movement. Um and so so um Gregory because he has an IEP um and needed that, uh exactly, we were able to say he needs to do this, so he can't wait until eighth grade to be a student assistant, right? So we're gonna start him out from the very beginning as a student assistant in seventh grade, and and that's what puts the special in special education, it does, yeah. Using that that IEP, that's what makes special education so special.

SPEAKER_01

Such a special relationship with her too, with the librarian.

SPEAKER_02

And and our first year, um at at my first year at Deer Creek with with the center program, um we had a young man also on the autism spectrum, and he he also needed that movement that and you know he was and he had some some also some really great skills that he could use. So he sh he shelled books, and so when Peggy's talking to me about this, I said, Oh, I know just what we can do, you know, and so went to the librarian and said, Guess what? We've got another story. So Gregory started as a seventh grader working in the library one period a day. And we loved it. Yeah, and and we we we scheduled it so that he had a couple of academic classes, first and second period, and then I think third period, you know, he was ready to to move and groove. So he worked in the library.

SPEAKER_01

It was great, he loved it, and they and they had such a great relationship. It was very, very cool. Yeah, very cool. Well, I knew we wouldn't be able to talk about everything, but we we burned that 30 minutes. I I hope I have to come back. Yeah, definitely have to come back, but this means so much to me and Gregory that you gave your time and energy to us during this because you have been such a big part of our life personally, professionally, and through education and everything, and it's been great.

SPEAKER_02

So I really, really, really, really well, and and I mean, I have I have I have former students that are my Facebook friends.

SPEAKER_01

There you go.

SPEAKER_02

And I I get to see them, you know, yeah, doing moving and grooving, you know, working, um, going to rock concerts with their friends, going to movies with their friends. Um fun to stay in touch.

SPEAKER_01

I know I wonder about some of the ones that I worked with, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, and and sometimes, you know, they they may not be working, but um, but you know, they're traveling or you know, that's great.

SPEAKER_01

And you're gonna come and see us, so we can't wait to see you in the summer. The coming summer, 2026. All right. Well, thanks for joining us. Okay, okay, thank you so much, Michelle. Bye. Bye.