Friendship, Support Systems & Raising Kids Together with Jane Claxton | Beyond Expectations Podcast Ep. 12

In Episode 12 of Beyond Expectations: Parenting Autism, Michelle Chabolla and Sean Dobson are joined by Michelle’s best friend of over 20 years, Jane Claxton, for a heartfelt conversation about friendship, support systems, and raising children side by side. With their kids growing up around the same time, Michelle and Jane share what it has looked like to walk through life together while navigating both typical and unique parenting experiences.

They reflect on how their friendship has evolved over the years, the role of trust and understanding, and how having a close, supportive friend can make a meaningful difference when raising a child with autism. Jane offers her perspective as someone who has had a front-row seat to Gregory’s journey, sharing honest insight into what it’s like to support, learn, and grow alongside a family navigating autism.

Together, they discuss inclusion, shared memories, and the importance of surrounding yourself with people who show up, stay consistent, and truly care. This episode highlights the value of long-term friendships and the impact they can have not just on parents, but on their children as well.

This episode offers encouragement and perspective for anyone who values deep friendship, is raising children alongside others, or wants to better understand how meaningful relationships can shape the parenting journey.

This episode is proudly supported by Gregory’s Special Creations. If you are looking for thoughtful and unique gifts while supporting Greg's growing small business, visit: ⁠http://www.gregorysgifts.com⁠

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the podcast Beyond Expectations, Parenting Autism. Follow Michelle Shabola's journey of raising a child with autism, the challenges, victories, and rewards. If you're a parent, caregiver, or simply someone seeking to understand autism on a personal level, you're in the right place.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Hello. Welcome to the show. We have Jane Claxton today, my best friend of 27 years.

SPEAKER_04 0:27

Wow. Hi, Jane.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

How are you? Good. Thanks for having me. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 0:34

Well, thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Yeah, we want to focus on friends. And basically, the day I met you, we were kind of thrown together. Our husband started working together and we moved from out of state together. And I had an autistic four-year-old and a two-year-old, and you had a five five-year-old and a ten-year-old. Correct. Yeah, yeah. Little girls. Yeah, boys. I had girls.

SPEAKER_04 0:59

Oh, how funny.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

We just dealt with it. We're just like, hello, now we're best friends. We have each other. That's right. And you had never had any experience with anybody that had autism. So that was a an eye-opening experience. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

I think at first, you know, Gregory was a lot younger, so you know, it wasn't as you know, extreme.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

But you were there learning with Michelle from the get-go. So how long, how long were you guys living in this is all in Colorado? How long were you guys living in Colorado together?

SPEAKER_03 1:38

13 years.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Oh, so you really got to see Gregory grow up?

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Yeah, so he was four and um left at 18. So left at 18, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Oh, so you have a whole third-party view of the of the entire story and the yeah, and the development.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

I was there when she was going through different schools and oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Now we can so we we have we have what she told us happened. Now we can find out what you happen.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

I got it all going down. She got to listen to all the crying and the screaming.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Well, this is pretty cool though, because that third party that third party perspective is super helpful, right? Because this is and this and it's the whole it's a huge chunk of Gregory's life, right? But and the development. So this is fascinating. And you guys um met what he was for, and now you guys are still friends. So you live in different states now. So, Jane, you live in Minnesota now, and Michelle lives in Texas, but you still take the state close. So that's that's pretty cool. So, where do we begin? Where's the scoop?

SPEAKER_02 2:43

The scoop would be with Jane telling us exactly how she felt because I was just living it all the time with her. And then I don't know. I don't know how it affected her children at you know, the ages they were. Did she deal with anything that I didn't know about with the kids? Did they ask questions? Because they were old enough to know.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

Right. I think that um, you know, after we met, and um, you know, there would have to be exceptions that would be made. You know, there would have, you know, things happen that we'd have to readjust and make different plans, or you would, you know, Gregory would need to go home, or you know, and I think those were the questions that maybe the girls would ask, like why, or you know what I mean? But um, I think the biggest thing is just them being aware of like, you know, the impact that like what was best for Gregory. I mean, they loved both your boys from the start and just bonded with both of them. So I think it was just a matter of, you know, just doing what we needed to do. And I don't really think there was that many questions, just okay, what's next? You know, interesting. Or like if we'd be at your house and it was obviously time to go home, they understood, hey girls, it's time to go home.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

They didn't ask questions because they knew that was you know, is this the famous story of Gregory bringing the shoes to everyone saying it's or walking into the door?

SPEAKER_03 4:15

Yeah, and then taking Jane to the front door. Yeah, he came and grabbed my hand. Okay, it's time for you to go. Okay, girls, I guess we're going. And it was just all no questions, just you know, and I think too, like it got to where we figured out it was easier to be at your house, and none of us had a problem with that, you know. Um, it was just easier for everybody. And I I think it's cool how our kids bonded. I was, you know, Michelle and I were talking, it's um they kind of went through phases to where like Hannah and Michael would hang out, and Gregory and Alex would hang out. Then it was kind of a switch to where you know Michael got older, like the sports, then Gregory and Hannah really found their things. So I think they just adjusted to whatever we were doing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

And and and hanging out with a family with an autistic child, like was it ever like this again? Like, was it ever was it ever like you know, an adjustment here and adjust there? Because you have plenty of chances to have friends that that don't have kids with autism.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

Yeah, no, it wasn't. I mean, we loved all of them so much from the start that I don't think any of us ever thought that, or you know, I mean, we wanted it, we were together all the time, you know, and we had so much fun. We found, you know, you think about like the times we'd go to the river, Michelle. Both of our husbands worked all the time, and so a lot of times it was Michelle and I with the kids, and you know, just finding things to keep all of them busy that worked for everybody. So, and I it was never an issue. I think it was just between me and Michelle figuring out what what was gonna work the best, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:06

When you think and you think about where we are now, you know, 20 something years later, right? Did you back then did you ever think that he'd be doing what he's doing now and operating a saw and dealing with the public?

SPEAKER_03 6:19

No, I didn't. I mean, I didn't know what he would be doing, but I didn't think he would be doing that. Like he is so much farther along than you know what you see that that's typical, and a lot of that is kudos to Michelle, you know, staying on him and you know, setting those expectations, it's okay. You know, I worked with special needs kids, and you know, when you have those expectations, they can reach, you know, the things they can do and they are capable of. And I've traveled with you, Michelle, and there's times that you know you can be hard on him, but it's all out of love and making him the best he can be, and that's what it takes, you know. I laugh about sometimes our trips that we've taken, and he'll be mad because Michelle is not letting him get away with something, or if he kind of starts to have a meltdown and you know, she just doesn't allow it, or finds a different way for him to deal with it, and it's not maybe the way he would prefer, and he'll be just like, Well, I'm just mad at her, you know, and she moves on and it's like, Yep, I that's fine, you can be mad at me, but this is what we're doing, you know. Yeah, Sean got to experience that and that's you know, that's kudos to all the parents out there that you know demand, you know, that expect the best of them, you know, because you don't want to it's so hard though, because you you know you need to make exceptions, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:56

You know it's not fair to set the same expectations for a person with autism to a person without autism. But then there's this how in the world do you find the balance to where it's not because you also don't want to make so many excuses that there's no standards and there's no right. How in the world do you find that that balance?

SPEAKER_03 8:15

Right. And it's I think it's different expectations, it's expectations that meet what he's capable of doing. Like as his mother, Michelle, you know what he's capable of, and it's easy for them to, you know. I mean, you could let him watch TV all day and do his fun things, but he, you know, you also expect him to do responsible things, and that's awesome, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

So you said you worked with kids with special needs. Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

So I did when I first it's funny because my friend worked at the high school and she knew I spent a lot of time with Gregory, and there was an opening at the high school in the um special ed department, and they had a big department. It was like, you know, learning delayed, at-risk kids, and then the you know, special needs. And I did a little bit of both, but when there was an opening, my friend who worked there said, You have so much great experience with Gregory, you should apply. And I thought, you know, here I'm gonna apply at this school and I have no experience, but anyway, I got I didn't have experience because you know, we I was with them a lot, but it worked out, I got the job, and I just loved it. And I was always drawn to like the kids, you know, with autism, because you know, when they include them in regular ed classes, to me, I am a hundred percent believer in that working for not just the special ed kids, but with the regular kids. Like I saw the change in the regular ed kids at the high school because some of them had never been around kids like that.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

And so then I don't know if you've seen our any of our episodes, but we had Gregory on, and he had the best moment when he corrected me where I always said, Oh, it wasn't so nice, wasn't so nice of those kids. They helped you, and he said, I helped them too.

SPEAKER_03 10:09

Yep, that's and that's so true. And I told all the kids that I worked with, you are helping everyone else in the school more than they're helping you, because they learn to adapt and see, you know, people for whatever you need that they have. You know, I'd be in classrooms with, I had a student I worked with that, you know, was on the spectrum at a different level and she had major anger issues. And, you know, sometimes it was just a matter of removing her from the classroom for a little bit. And just like you said, how Gregory, you know, how Gregory likes to take a breather and you know he likes he needs to go stretch. Yeah, he stretches a lot, yeah, and this girl liked to stretch a lot too. But that's you know, that's okay. They take their little break and they go back and they're good to go.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

So what was so what was your what was your job? Like what were you doing in the school?

SPEAKER_03 11:09

So when I went there, I just was like when the special ed kids would be in regular ed classes, I was the support for them when they you know were in the class.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

This is what Michelle called the para the paraprofessional.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Is it literally is it literally one-on-one? You like you have one child you're assigned to, and that child you're with that child all day long?

SPEAKER_03 11:33

Yeah, depends on the yeah, depends on the needs. Like I would maybe be assigned to like say one class period. I would take one child into a class and be one-on-one with them, but then other classes I would have maybe 10 special ed kids that were more like at a learning delayed level, right? And they would be in like an English class, trying, you know, to you know, just be in the same class. Yeah. And so then sometimes I'd pull them all out for testing, or if we were reading something, I'd pull them all out to read separately rather than with the group, but then try to also keep them with the group and then also deal with any discipline. You know, sometimes some of the kids, if they're in a big classroom like that, they do need a break. So then I'd take one or two out for a little bit, come back in. And it was awesome. It just gives them such an opportunity to be around so many different kids, you know, and then and then learn and feel good about you know what they're learning rather than just being in a private room all day.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

You know, yeah, no kidding. Yeah, that's sort of what they call mainstreaming piece, right? Like bring the kids right into the classroom, and as Gary pointed out, it benefits everyone, but it still creates a taxing infrastructure. I mean, it's kind of amazing that the school pays for a teacher that can have such a low ratio of one kid or five kids or ten kids. Yeah, the teacher teaching the class probably has 25 or 30. I think in Texas, they probably have 30 or 35 kids that they're trying to keep up with.

SPEAKER_03 13:12

Yeah, so then you're supporting both the teacher and the kids, you know, a lot of times in those, you know, in the like regular classrooms.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Yeah, the teachers really liked that. They liked having that that extra set of hands in the classroom. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's only fair, right? It's it's I'm sure most teachers are under resourced anyway, and then you add a kid that needs special attention, right? It's only fair that they get a set of hands, but it's pretty cool that that as we talked about the laws that were passed and the funding that was switched up for this. Um one day we have to we have to figure out because I know the need is is growing, right? Has been growing.

SPEAKER_03 13:47

Right, yeah, and the funds are getting lower.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Yeah, yeah, it's not a recipe for success. So, so Jane, in your so it's kind of cool. So could you say could you credit Gregory with getting you into that role of helping other kids?

SPEAKER_03 14:03

100%. I remember I was kind of nervous when I went to interview for it because I'm, you know, just at the time I think I was working at a law office part-time. And um, you know, so I didn't have experience other than being, you know, with Michelle's family and spending a lot of time with Gregory. But, you know, I just went into the interview and I just I literally talked and gave a lot of examples of what you know, what I would do with Gregory or what I would see Michelle do with Gregory, what I had been exposed to, you know. So I I feel like it really helped me get the job. But the big part is yeah, it also just had, you know, I just grew to have a love for it, you know, and a love for those kids.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

That's kind of crazy that one day we're at the map out how many people Gregory inspired to go help raise other kids, right? Because we have a niece who's a who I think is a and now she's a very senior person in an elementary school, but she started out teaching. I think I think Gregory had a lot to do with that.

SPEAKER_03 15:05

Yeah, and then my daughter works at a home for adult, um, adult men with autism.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Oh, she does.

SPEAKER_03 15:14

Yeah, yeah, wow. And I think her, you know, just it's just like her personality growing up with Gregory. I just think you just have a compassion and heart for it, you know. Wow, and the stuff she deals with does not even affect her at all.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Really? But she's had but she's had experience since maybe she was a child. Since she was 10. That's so cool. I don't know that there's anybody that I've met that's in the job they're in today because they met me. At least not ones that don't work for me.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

I'm sure a lot of people ran when they met you.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

Exactly, exactly. They may be in therapy because of me, but not not other people. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

Yeah, I don't I don't know. Yeah, for sure. And then all these teachers and all these people that he've known for forever. Oh, I want to be on, I want to be on. No more.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

Yeah, oh, that's so fun. That's so fun. So, so Jake, when you're working at school, did you have do you have just off the top of your head? I don't mean to put you on the spot, but like, do you have like for people that are tuning in and they're just finding out and they must be, you know, it's got to be scary and and intimidating. Like, have you seen like a hand do you have like a handful of tips of like do's and don'ts? Because you have to you have obviously when you're in your role, you're dealing with parents, you're dealing with those kids.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

And and what kind of what we've been struggling with is that autism is this almost ill-defined thing, right? Where there's yeah, where I think we figured out that most of my family has some of these same attributes. So, like the finding the perimeter, finding the perimeter of a diagnosis is tricky, right? Yeah, but I mean, I don't know, does any did anything come off the top of your head is like do's and don'ts, you think stuff that succeeded, stuff that didn't?

SPEAKER_03 17:03

I would say the number one thing for parents is advocate for your child. You know, there's no nobody that knows them better than you. And whether that's advocating, communicating with the teacher, um, the big thing is the IEP meetings, you know. Michelle, you you had yours every year, you know what they're like.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

This sounds so we we touched on this a little bit. It's awful. But this individual education plan, plan, yeah, IEP thing. And you said it's awful. I don't I it sounded to me, I don't understand it, I guess. So so like when you go in there, what sh what do you need to know before you go in there? And is there something bad that can happen when you're there?

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Well, there's not bad, it's just that you are on one side of the table, you and your spouse, and there are 12 other people in this room that have a they're trying to hurt you or help you.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

I can't figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

They hold you up, they hit you, they do all these bats you might as well they might as well just take a bat.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Why does it feel like that? Because because just from the innocent bystander's perspective, you're like 12 people sat down to talk about how we can best adapt the school for your child. It sounds amazing. No, well, it's but I'm saying, hold on, but to me, it sounds amazing. It sounds like they're stopping their day to customize a plan for your kid, but that is that not how it turns out that that's what the game plan is.

SPEAKER_02 18:25

And I'm sure there's lots of good intentions in this meeting, but what they start off with is very negative. It's okay, Gregory can't do this, he can't do that, he can't, oh, he'll probably never do this, we'll never do that. Every blue moon, you would get someone in the meeting that would just stop people and say, Okay, we're gonna just like Trudy, we we've already talked to one of them. This is what he can do. Did you know that he can do this? Did you know that he can do this? You never heard that. I see because they're they're they're right.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

So so so if we if we're ever fortunate enough to get someone on the educational side to listen to this, someone that's like leading those meetings and arranging those meetings, right? Like, is it is it as simple? I don't oversimplify this thing. Is as simple as like the choice of language because you're saying can't, don't, never. I mean, those are horrible words to hear. But is that coming from a place of like, okay, we need to build a plan to help develop these skills? And so we necessarily need to know the skills that are lacking, right? So is it more of just like a like um, I forget it, I don't even know. I'm so poorly brained. Is it your left brain that does numbers and your right brain that does art? I just have the brain that does numbers. And so, like someone that has that brain is just like, let's get the work done, let's fill it, let's find out where the holes are, let's fill the holes, let's go. But are you saying that that that's not it? Or is it just as a parent, you're feeling like you're they're beating down your kid.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

For an example, you bring somebody in that's working for you, and you've got something that they're you feel like they're really not doing what they should be doing. When they walk in the door, do you just hit them with, why aren't you doing this? Why aren't you doing?

SPEAKER_01 20:01

So I'm a bad example because I'm terrible at that.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

Okay, well then don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

And my and my employees have told me I'm terrible at it. And so I'm sorry that I'm terrible at it, but then they but then they've told me that there's this thing. What's it called? It's called the it's like a feedback sandwich or the negative feedback sandwich, where it's like, here's the five things you do great, here's the one thing that's not great, here's the other five things you do great. Have a nice day. And and I guess that just puts people in a place where they're just more receptive.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

It is, and and I think when you're an adult and you're hearing from another adult, it's probably a lot better than when you walk in there and you already know your child's struggling, and you feel like you hear is the negative of it, and then they go, Well, okay, well, this is what we need to work on, and this is and I just think, and they're not all of them were that way, but I'd say no, right? They're not. I think I had one meeting I didn't do.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

All James, did you experience that a lot with the parents that like really really felt negative about the meeting and felt like you know, some do, and then some are positive.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

Like, I think it kind of depends on to like who's running the meeting, and they will they do have to point out like what the students aren't doing because they still need to qualify for services, and so but it's just how it's brought to the table, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Like well, you can shut you can shut down progress because people get defensive and they get upset, and then you know they don't want to hear all this stuff, right? They don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_03 21:27

Yeah, but if they're doing too awesome, they can they could lose services, you know. I mean, that's the other thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Oh, is there is there some oh I'll always love to follow the money. So is there some like economic incentive to to make the kids feel like that they're less capable than they might be?

SPEAKER_02 21:43

I think maybe in some cases, I never had that case, but maybe there are, maybe there are right.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

But Sir Michelle, to the day you would say that the whether the assessment's generally correct, just delivered in a way that was just crushing.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

I just think it was you really got to go in there, and if any no one's ever been in one, I I highly Recommend you taking a spouse or even another advocate. Yeah. And I know where there are people that are advocates for parents that go in there with them and and don't let them beat you up. And they say, okay, well, this is what we're going to do for a little joke.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

What's at stake? If they beat you up, what's at stake? If you come out of that meeting and it didn't go well, well, what happens?

SPEAKER_02 22:21

First of all, if they just focus on the if they don't get together and everybody agree on what he needs, it's a very long process to start all over again. So everybody's got to be on the same page. So if I wanted Gregory to know his ABCs, and they're like, well, you know what? Probably not important at this point. Well, it is to me.

unknown 22:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

So they can override that.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

The tension is like we're gonna set together the next six weeks. Is this done like every semester or every twice a year?

SPEAKER_02 22:50

In the spring, and then the you can call them anytime. I always did it in the fall and in the spring.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Just to get a so it's up to the parent.

SPEAKER_03 22:58

Yeah, and some students would be one time a year, depending on their needs, too.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Right. But but it could be kind of a high-stakes thing because if you if they say, well, you know, if um, you know, if coloring a whole page in red is the goal, then your kid doesn't get the resources they need, right? If they set the goals too low, then you're wasting a huge amount of time resources. And then is that right, Michelle? Is that kind of the point? Like if they're not if you're not agreeing on like what's capable, what's possible?

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Right, you have to, and there's just so many things that you have to agree on. And yes, like the OT, you have to agree on what's this OT gonna work on. You know, I had an OT that wanted to teach him how to use a payphone. And I'm sorry, Gregory will probably never see a payphone in his life. Yeah, and that's what this was junior high, and I was like, you know what? I think we should probably take that off the goals. Yeah, I mean, he will have a cell phone, but I doubt very soon.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

But you're really negotiating a curriculum. You're but you're negotiating a curriculum for the next.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

I mean, I was like, okay, yeah, you're negotiating like what the goals will be and what the expectations will be for your student the the next year coming. Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 24:19

Well, you really know that's what I was gonna say too, working at the school. Um, and I would tell this to parents if there's somebody that's close to you at the school and you know knows your child, request that they go to the meeting. Like I was asked to go to several meetings because I knew the child, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

You mean someone that works at the school or just like another parent?

SPEAKER_03 24:44

No, like somebody that works at the school. So, like you have parents, right? Or the parent. The the para, it would be the main paras, a lot of times are the ones that are used to go.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

The parent has to invite that para. The school is not gonna include that parra in the IET.

SPEAKER_03 25:02

But you can request, I want them there, they're with my son all day, you know, because then that's somebody that's gonna advocate for them.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Yeah, interesting. Wow, yeah, very important. This is so cool that yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's what you guys are sharing is important not only for the parent to prepare for the school, but for the school to maybe think through, like, hey, this is a pressure-filled situation, this is a parent, this is their child, they're naturally gonna be protective and defensive.

unknown 25:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

How do we how do we clean up the language so that we get the best outcome for everybody and not create like a someone that just naturally gets on the defensive because they feel like that they're being sort of pigeonholed? And then and then I'm fascinated by the incentives of this. Like, what is the school incentivized to do from either an allocation of resources or a compensation perspective? And does this affect anything that's in their you know, not accreditation, but like in their reputation or like how does it affect how does their servicing of special needs kids affect them? Is it financially?

SPEAKER_03 26:01

Is it just is it one of these things where it's definitely financial? Because like when Michelle brought up the OT, if he did if he did something and they had all these goals for OT and he was like excelling in everything and was doing great, then they could come to the conclusion that he doesn't need OT anymore.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

And and if the parents know that there's still deficiencies and there's still needs there, then that becomes a real point of frustration.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Right. It did come to a point where he he got out of OT, out of services for OT. Because his his uh gross motor were off the chart. But it so what we did is we took some of those minutes and put them towards speech or put them some towards something else. I think you got 30 minutes of OT, 30 minutes of time.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

I get it now. Like the whole point is that there's finite resources, there's what's gonna feel like an infinite demand, and now the administrators are left trying to figure out how to allocate those resources, and the parents are and the parents are fighting for those same scarce resources, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:06

And they'd rather have a para that's with 10 students than one that's with one, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Well, of course, well, it's it's a school. I don't remember ever sitting into a school meeting where they said they were had overly funded, right? Where they had extra students extra money, like that's never happening in a school meeting, right? And so they and so they're I can respect they're in a tight situation as well. And and if they have yeah, this is this is as if the headlines are correct, and we'll we'll have a whole we need to get someone on to tell us about the metadata, but as I understand it, these needs are just escalating and escalating and escalating. And like you said, Jane, I'm sure the funds are maybe not either not growing or going, and that's gonna create even more pressure on these IEPs because it's gonna be like, hey, good enough. And I think that I guess that's where you're saying the risk is, is if the school says Gregory's good enough, we're gonna ship these resources to someone else, and then you know he's not, and then you gotta and then that puts the burden back on the family. If they know that there's more occupational therapy and the school's not providing it, then they gotta go pay for it, and so right, and so so all these, so that's the incentive structure. I didn't understand.

SPEAKER_03 28:07

Yeah, that goes back to you know why it's just so important to advocate for your child and find anybody in the school that will do that. If there's a teacher, like you have teachers that you know, which I think all Gregory's teachers loved him. But you know, if there's certain teachers, you want them in that meeting because they're gonna, you know, they know what he needs, they know, you know, what's gonna help him, what's gonna make him better.

unknown 28:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

That's so amazing. That's unbelievable. So that IEP thing we kind of touched on a couple times. I didn't, I wasn't understanding the stakes of the whole thing. That's pretty fascinating. Yeah, and the pair, and when go ahead. The para getting assigned a para, is that part of that meeting that you either are qualified, your child's qualified for one or not?

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Well, I requested one because I knew he could not function by himself in a classroom. And there are children that need help that can sit in a classroom, they can sit there all day. Yeah, so their parents really need to. Is he learning? Yes, he's sitting quietly in the classroom, yes, he's not causing any trouble. Is he learning?

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Right, yeah, is is it is it is it is it he or she's not providing much of a distraction, or are they actually getting the service?

SPEAKER_02 29:27

Absolutely, and I think I think in a good way, Gregory couldn't sit still and really had a hard time. He could not take the information from the board and and take it to him. It was too that processing was too far from him. So his para was the middle explaining it again to him, closer to him.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Yeah, finding the way he learned and matching the information to the his method of learning. We put our kids through training through through testing when they were little. And and this was a recommendation from one of their schools that said everyone learns differently, and so you got to find the way. Is it auditory, is it visual, is it touch, and whatever? And so I guess that's what the parents are doing is they're trying to it's even harder with someone with autism.

SPEAKER_03 30:12

Yeah, you just accommodate whatever way a kid learns. That's like removing them from the classroom to take a test, or you know, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Have you seen the headlines recently? There's a lot of criticism of this about these accommodations, and the headlines I don't know if this is true or not these days with news, you never know. But the headline was that 40% of the kids at Stanford are on some type of waiver for basically some kind of adaptive education to adapt to their needs. Yeah. 40% yeah, which seems like it can't be correct. I mean, these are kids that are if they're getting into Stanford, they're some of the smartest kids in the world. Right.

SPEAKER_04 30:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

But that may come with neurological differences as well, I guess. But but it feels like that there's a real chance for people to try to take it. Because that in in the in that environment, the accommodation is around testing. You get to test differently, get longer, right, longer.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

And uh, and so I've got kids, a son at Stanford and a daughter at Columbia, and I can tell you that the pressure that they feel is intense, right? The competition from their from their peers, the grading on curves, and the level of the speed at which they're learning and the complexity of the of the materials. So if someone can get if someone gets more time on the tests, it'll make a big difference. It could it could be an advantage to that person if they weren't really like someone that was in need of that. So something that's gonna that, but that creates this whole horrible downtrend for the people that do need it, because then it's like, oh, are we is this a gaming of the system or the people who actually really need these resources? So I've so I really feel for the parents that are in this in this education system because clearly the parents know what their kids need, but then they're gonna be met with a skeptical eye because other people are potentially taking advantage of the system.

unknown 32:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, taking so many ways are they taking advantage of it? That's so the worst one I heard recently is we were at Walt Disney World, and a lady was on us with this on a train, and this is completely opposite, but kind of the same. And she said, Um, did you get a special pass for him? I said, We did. We got, you know, where we don't have to wait in the long lines. And she said, Well, be careful. And I said, What do you mean? She said, You'll get hit up by somebody. They're actually paying special needs people, so they don't have to wait in line. So again, taking advantage of the system is huge, huge. The people that let them rent their children, that's wrong.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

But when you say take advantage of everywhere, yeah, we haven't talked about it, Michelle.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

You and I haven't prepped about it, but there's national headlines now around uh the in Minneapolis, exactly this, right? This was this was oh, the autism was some enormous growth in state funds going to help kids with autism, and now there's all this kerfuffle that it was all a big scam.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

Five billion, it was a huge number, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

It's yeah, yeah, it was the numbers were like were like you know, intergalactic numbers.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

So we should dig into that, Michelle, and and understand, like, because that's that's gonna be the kind of thing that blows back on everyone, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

I mean, how do you know it's real or not? Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 33:29

When you go out to reach for us, it's just like it's like well, whenever whenever a system is abused like that, then people are gonna say it's gonna tighten up access, right?

SPEAKER_03 33:37

Just by by very creating the people that really need it are scrutinized, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Which we had to do.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

Yeah, for the Disney Pass, we had to be Gregory had to have a Zoom call.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Oh, really? Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

So that's why they're renting.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Yeah, and people rent specialty. There's got to be a special place in help or someone that rents a specialty case. I mean, what in the world? So, Jay, tell us before we go, we're here at 33 minutes. What what is tell us about your daughter's job again? And and can we give Gregory the credit for that one too?

SPEAKER_03 34:11

Well, yeah, definitely. Like, I think her love for that, and then also just going into that environment, like she just fit right in and excelled immediately because you know, she understands it and just has a love for it.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

So, yeah, she's I love her because these these professions don't pay very well, right? And they're and the amount of emotional that means it's pure it's energy, right? Because there's a lot of time involved, and then and then there's the emotional strain of of you know being empathetic for the people and and then I guess dealing dealing with adult men. I mean, there's there's dangers, right? I mean, like this is I've got friends with that have adult, uh, autistic male children that have had incidents of violence, right? Because they're I mean they're right muscular men at the other day.

SPEAKER_03 34:57

Yeah, there, and there's in fact, there's one there that Alex just loves, but he has to be there because he's hurt his mother, you know, and that's that's part of it. Like she cried the I you know, I just feel bad because she was put in a position to where she had to.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

She had to. So did go to get a degree in social work, or how did she end up?

SPEAKER_03 35:19

No, no, she didn't. Um Gregory, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

She got a PhD in Gregory Shabola. Gregory Shahola. So real so, really, in the case of these are like real life experience that turned into jobs, yeah, turned into helping other people, yeah, and she loves it, absolutely loves it. Good for you guys. That's amazing. Well, yeah, my advice is we've been lucky enough to be exposed to the University of Texas School of Social Work, and we have a whole, you know, long relationship with them. And what we learned there that you got to tell Alex is that there's a whole piece of that training for social works that is about taking care of themselves. Yeah, they're exposed to so much of other people's you know, they're because you're attracted to that work because I think you're highly empathetic, and then all that empathy, I think, can can end up being a burden that you have to sort of like but they go through every part, every year, as I understand it, of their curriculum is a section on how to how to take a step back. And and I think they argue that it's kind of like the put the mask on yourself before you put it on the kid on the airplane. Is it if you let yourself get worn down, then that's one less person that's not around to help other people, right? So I hope she's learning how to take care of herself.

SPEAKER_03 36:33

Yeah, well, I'm on her about that all the time.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

That's fascinating. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming. This has been great. I learned a lot about IEP.

SPEAKER_03 36:46

Well, thanks for having me. It was fun.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

All right, love to have you back.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

Thanks. Bye, everybody.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Bye bye.