Beyond Expectations: Parenting Autism

IEPs, Inclusion & Life Skills with Sharon Vehrs | Beyond Expectations Podcast Ep. 13

• Michelle Chabolla • Episode 13

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In Episode 13 of Beyond Expectations: Parenting Autism, Michelle Chabolla and Sean Dobson sit down with Sharon Vehrs, a former special education teacher who worked with Gregory, to talk about what really helps kids succeed in school—and beyond.

From individualized education plans (IEPs)  and inclusion to real-world life skills, Sharon shares powerful insights from 17 years in the classroom, including how building independence, setting high expectations, and planning early can change a child’s future. Plus, hear about an incredible student-run coffee business that taught skills far beyond academics.

This episode is a must-listen for parents, caregivers, and educators navigating autism, special education, and the transition to adulthood.

This episode is proudly supported by Gregory’s Special Creations. If you are looking for thoughtful and unique gifts while supporting Greg's growing small business, visit: http://www.gregorysgifts.com

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to the podcast Beyond Expectations, Parenting Autism. Follow Michelle Chabola's journey of raising a child with autism, the challenges, victories, and rewards. If you're a parent, caregiver, or simply someone seeking to understand autism on a personal level, you're in the right place.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, here we are with Beyond Expectations. And today we have a great guest with us, Sharon Veers, formerly McManus, that worked with Gregory in high school. And I believe his freshman year, I'm trying to remember, Sharon. Was it his freshman year? I think.

SPEAKER_02

I'm pretty sure it was freshman year. They start to all kind of meld together after after 17 years, but I'm pretty sure it was freshman year.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And uh Sean has said we've had a couple of his teachers on saying that the teachers wouldn't even remember him, but all of you remember Gregory. So it's easy. Of course.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

So we want to hear about what you did during your 17 years of teaching. That might take more than 30 minutes, huh?

SPEAKER_02

I'll try and condense it and give you the cliff note version. There you go. But but when I when I started, um, that was back when when kids with special needs were um were not included in the general ed classroom, except for they um unless they were on the more advanced stage, maybe they had a slight reading disability or um they had a slower processing speed, they could go in the regular ed classroom. But the other kids were we had resource classes. And we had a resource class for everything. We had it for English, we had it for math, we had it for science, we had it for social studies. Um, and then when they'd push after um a big revamp in uh special ed laws came in, it was nope, everything has to be inclusion, and only the most severely impacted students could have resource pullout classes. Uh and you had to have a teacher, this is where they also got it was the teacher of those classes had to be highly qualified in that subject. So you couldn't teach science if you weren't highly qualified in science. So you had to have license in science as well as special ed to teach a special ed science class. And then, and the same thing with math, and the same thing with English, although a lot of us were highly qualified in English anyway. So, what they went to was a full inclusion model with pair of professionals like you used to do, Michelle, going in and helping students, and the sp and the teachers would consult with the general ed teachers, and we found that that really wasn't working either. So, what we did was we did 10 team teaching, and a special ed teacher would team up with a general ed teacher, and the two would teach the class together. And we went through trainings together, and I'll tell you, by the time I retired, the kids didn't even know who was the special ed teacher and who was the general ed teacher because we knew the curriculum inside and out, and we flew, you know, we everything ebbed and flowed together, you know, just seamlessly. And uh it gave us the flexibility of having hands-on, uh, eyes on our students that were on our caseloads, as well as helping other kids that maybe didn't qualify for special services, but they got extra help anyway, uh, with us being in the classroom.

SPEAKER_04

That's that's fascinating. So, so in this, do you remember from a time frame perspective of when it went from separate classes? And then, as you said, it went to a blended class, but with a prayer professional, and then it went to two teachers in one class. Like, what are the years of this roughly?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, let me think. Um it was probably four years of separate classes, and then it went to full inclusion with us consulting for probably another three or four years, and then it went to team teaching after that.

SPEAKER_04

And what what years was this?

SPEAKER_02

Oh gosh, you're gonna ask me years like three years ago.

SPEAKER_04

I'm trying to think about how long.

SPEAKER_02

I re I retired in 2021, and so I have to go backwards now because I team taught in science for seven years, so so so it was like early 2000s, it was still separate classes, yes, and then the way then they try these models.

SPEAKER_04

Now, the what you just described is that particular, you think, to one school district in one city and one state, or or is this kind of the the evolution of teaching for kids?

SPEAKER_02

That was I can only speak to our district, right? Um, I know other states didn't have that model because my mom lives in Arizona, and I would go to Arizona and visit her and my dad, and they just lived up the street from the high school. So, what does every school teacher do when they're on spring break? You go to the school that's down the street from your parents' house and check that one out. So that's that's I spent my spring break going to school, even at another school, but no, they didn't have that model. Um they and and the way they ran things were were different than how uh Colorado ran it.

SPEAKER_04

It seems like a pretty luxurious program, really, because then you ended up doubling the teaching resources in every classroom.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. And it also gave the because those students are uh allowed accommodations according to their um I excuse me, their IEPs, their individual education plans. And so that gave us the chance to go in and kind of look at the at the lesson plans that the teacher was planning on presenting and making little tweets here and there to make it more accessible uh for the students that have you know greater needs than your general ed students.

SPEAKER_04

That's amazing. Well, hats off to that school district for putting in those those extra resources. We'll have to kind of figure out how common that is. It sounds it sounds amazing.

SPEAKER_02

It it really is, and really it does come down to staffing. And if the district doesn't have the budget and they don't have the staff, you you really kind of you can't you don't have that luxury. We were fortunate enough that we were in a large district, so we were able to do that.

SPEAKER_04

That's fantastic. So so you started out as a special ed teacher, and then you you you transitioned as you described into this into this new these new teaching models. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02

Right, right. And so I you know, I as I like to tell everybody that uh I by the time I had retired, I had taught every subject there is in high school, and then some. Because some of the subjects are not actually academic, like when I first started, we had independent living, which I know Gregory had had done, uh, not with me, but I know that that was offered. And then that kind of morphed into um uh uh the cop my coffee business class that I had. Uh, I actually took that over from the teacher I replaced, and I actually student taught with her. So I learned it from her and then kept it going. Uh they'll show them what that all is.

SPEAKER_01

That was very yeah.

SPEAKER_02

As Michelle knows, uh students, no matter if it no matter what their level of ability, they like to be able to predict what is and and to expect what's going to happen day to day. So the coffee business was a self-contained, uh small business within our classroom. So Mondays, we would go shopping to the grocery store, which was just down the street from the school, and they had their shopping list, and they learned about price comparison, they learned about uh number sense because they know if a number is higher or lower. Is that a buy or is that not a good buy? Uh they learned about name brands versus store brands. Uh, and so and then they learned how to do the checkout. So they're learning life skills as well as business skills. Then Tuesday, uh we would take those ingredients and make a bakery item to sell with the coffee. On Wednesday, we would set up the coffee business and we had these little um almost like home, well, they were, they were home uh Barista machines from Starbucks. So they've made espresso and steamed milk and everything. Uh, they would set up the coffee business. We would talk about um job applications, interview skills, uh, what behaviors employers expect on the job, what what can get you hired, what can get you fired. Um uh and then on Thursday, we actually ran the coffee business and students did everything. I just kind of stood back and I let them go because I had a student that was my assistant manager, I had three baristas, I had a head um delivery clerk who's who put everybody out to deliver the orders, and then we had delivery clerks, and they had we had our set order form, and teachers pretty much ordered the same thing every week. So we had them split up according to uh what kind of milk they had, and you know, because we had skim, we had uh whole, we had um non-dairy, and uh the kids made the orders, they put them out, they learned all about you know like if you you can't have hair, you have to go wash your hands every time, can't scratch scratch your nose, gotta go wash your hands every time. Um, and then they would deliver them to the teachers, and they would always have to say, Thank you for thank you for ordering from us. And when they done the teacher that gets on to Friday. Oh they get a bill because after we do the coffee, because then we clean up and everything else, then on Friday, depending on the size of the class, half the class would go through our recipe book and pick out recipes that we would want to make the following week for a bakery item. The other half we would do bookkeeping, and I had ledgers, and the kids would take the order forms and they say, Okay, this is so-and-so uh owes us this much, and tell me what, and they would tell me what her order was. And I'd I'd write it in the ledger, and we kept a running ledger, and we did that that to the tally every Friday. Well, at the end of the month, then we did billing and we sent out the bills to the teachers. Um, and they all had to sign the notes, you know, for you know, thank you for ordering from us, and all the kids signed the notes, so the teachers love that. And then um, and then when the when the money came in, then they we would go through it and I'd credit the uh the ledger in the book and start it all over again. And that was our weekly routine.

SPEAKER_01

It was it was amazing, it was amazing.

SPEAKER_04

I've never heard of it. It's a it's incredible. Every every school should have that for every kid. That's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02

Well, what's funny is I brought that program to the high school in in uh Lake Havasu, Arizona, by my mom and dad, and they implemented it at the high school there.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that is so cool. You know, companies can do that, Sean.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, absolutely. It would be amazing. And was was this for the student, was this one of their daily classes that they that they participated in?

SPEAKER_02

It was a class they participated in, they got a grade for it. Um, I I had the whole thing in the grade book about you know what what I was looking for, you know, and how much how many points it was worth. And right um the biggest biggest threat, because you know, kids do have off days, just like we all do. And the biggest threat was you don't want me to fire you, because that behavior could get you fired in the real world. You don't want to get fired from coffee business. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. And then they they turned it around real quick because they love coffee business.

SPEAKER_04

Wow, that's such an innovative model, such a good idea.

SPEAKER_01

It's such a great idea. All kids need that.

SPEAKER_02

Uh and it and it really did give them real world experience in a very small contained area that they could take out into the workforce. And uh and the kids did. They uh a lot of them. I I went back to Colorado last year. I saw a bunch of my old former students working at the local grocery store, and they and they said, Yeah, just like you said, Ms. M, we gotta, we gotta be on time, we we can't talk back, we have to be nice to the customers, even if they're not nice to us.

SPEAKER_01

That's true. Fantastic. Yeah, yeah. I told you Greg reworked at Einstein. Whoo! That was uh interesting three years. He did a great job, but it's it's very hard to work. It's very hard work, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Well, that would have been the inspiration. He was he was prepared for it because of the work you did. He did well there, right? I mean, he the stories that he told me and you told me, he he worked his way from the working the floor to working the to actually cooking, right?

SPEAKER_01

Because they went down and did the um they worked, remember Sharon, they worked at Einstein's, they did the yes, go-to-go, they did that kind of stuff with uh back then.

SPEAKER_02

Back then is when we could have a para take um a student out of the school building and go to the local grocery store, and they would train on go back or stocking, um, or they'd go work at Einstein's. Uh they had we had different businesses that were uh cooperative uh partners with the school, and uh the kids didn't get paid. It was all it was just on-the-job work experience. Yeah, uh, so it was that it was really, really nice to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_04

That is I'm so glad you told us that story. That's incredible. I hope someone picks that story up and gets motivated to do that in their school. That is so cool. Absolutely. Yeah, fantastic.

SPEAKER_01

So fun. So so fun.

SPEAKER_04

So I think part of what we're what we're what we're trying to do here is um and I think Michelle probably told you, right? So people get a diagnosis and then they don't know what the future holds. And right and Michelle, Michelle, we all kind of went through this uh in the periphery, and obviously Michelle did this every day, and she had the idea to kind of uh at least give people some idea what the preview is, and and and I think I was excited about it because she's had such a good outcome, right? So I think we've all uh just been amazed at at the things that Gregory does, and now he works with power tools and also runs a business and does customer service and understands money and now he's independent living and he's doing his own, you know, taking care of himself and make his own breakfast. So it's it's incredible relative to the uh to the forecast. And and I think that have you seen that sort of thing in the past? How unusual is that? How should parents think about parents that maybe have a two-year-old home, three-year-old home, and they're overwhelmed by this whole I mean, I'm guessing you're overwhelmed by the the what the future holds, right? So given given you had 17 years of special education, you must you must be a lot of a big range of outcomes, I'm guessing. But do you have any sort of words of encouragement for people of like what can be expected?

SPEAKER_02

I would say for for parents, look at it as chunks of time. You have your your child, your student in elementary school, that's one chunk of time. And then they transition to middle school, that's one chunk of time. Then they transition to high school, that's a big chunk of time. And in high school, hopefully they are working at school as well as you know, parents working at home of preparing them for life after high school. What we would tell parents, even starting when the kids were freshmen, what's your game plan after high school? Because right now, school takes up a huge chunk of your day hours, and and the student is occupied and interacting with other people. What's your game plan after high school? And and it really it's not too soon to start thinking about it because a lot of people all of a sudden high school graduation comes or or continuation kind of like, oh, what do I do now? Um and and that's where um I used to call it the little triangle of trust or the triangle of education, because that triangle, one point is the student, one point is the parents or the family, and one point is the teacher or the school. And you can't take one out of the equation, it has to be all three working together in unison uh in order for it to be successful. And so um, luckily, at least in Colorado, they have day programs for adults that age out of the education system. Now, according to the law, you can have you, your student is entitled to a free and appropriate education until they turn 21. Now, how that looks depends on your student and depends on what your school district has to offer. Obviously, we don't want 21-year-olds going to school with 14-year-olds. So we had we have transition services um outside of the high school that is paid for by the school district. Uh, and they are entitled.

SPEAKER_04

I have no idea. Is this a Colorado only thing that we think?

SPEAKER_02

No, no, that's federal law.

SPEAKER_04

Federal law. I'm wondering something.

SPEAKER_01

It actually stops, right, Sharon. If they turn 21 within that year, they get to go till they turn 22. But if they it's really weird how their birthday falls, right?

SPEAKER_02

Well, yeah, depending on how their birthday falls, but normally, let's say you turn 21 in January, you continue until um the the following year. Um while you're 21. While you're 20, well, until the end of that year when you're 21. Um, because obviously you're not gonna continue on when you're 22. But um, but a lot of a lot, what I have found is a lot of the students by the time they're 21, it's like, I'm done with this. I'm I I'm I'm ready to get out there and do what I need to do. Um, especially the higher functioning kids like Gregory, it's like, yeah, you know, it we had we had a game plan, and that was absolutely fabulous, how how it all came out and everything. And I know other parents that have done the same thing. Um, they have friends that you know, they have a horse ranch and the kids really get into horse therapy or equine therapy, and they end up working at the horse ranch and and doing that. So it's really just finding the niche or the the thing that that uh your child or your student um it really likes and wouldn't mind doing, you know, every day or you know, how often you can to get them out to work. Because I mean basically, we you know, working, do we want to go to work every day? Not every day, but you know, you go because you have to go. And and uh and uh the good days far outweigh the uh the challenging days.

SPEAKER_04

That's incredible. I mean, this is the as we as I've learned about this, I've learned about this individual education plan and I've learned about the planning, and and while you were talking, I was just reading that in Texas these transition services are mandated to begin by 16 and are and are expected to begin by 14 to plan for post-school. It's it's kind of encouraging. I mean, it seems like the government is actually more efficient than I would have expected the government to be. Have you found that these that that these things are working as we described?

SPEAKER_02

Yes, because it really gets the student and it gets the family, the parents thinking what's the next steps ahead. Um early on in my career, a lot of parents just like we're just taking it one day at a time. We're just taking it, they didn't want to think about down the road, and then all of a sudden down the road's here, and they're like, No, wait a minute, we're not ready for this. It's like we've been telling you this since you know, we can't.

SPEAKER_04

Well, it's so hard, there's a lot going on, right? I mean it is, it's mind-bothering, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but and that's why we we say you don't have to do it all at once, just you know, do a little step at a time, you know, and that way when it when the big you know finale's here, you're prepared, and and so is uh the young adult at that point.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, you're so important. That's that's fascinating. So so um across your history, like that's unbelievable advice, right? You got to be looking ahead, be planning ahead, planning for tomorrow, planning for success, and and it's gotta be way easier said than done given the the chat what the challenges must be. So have you seen so those are kind of the do's. Have you have you are there more things that you sort of see as like the the must-haves for parents of kids with special needs?

SPEAKER_02

Um probably the realistic expectations and um uh it's okay. What Dr.

SPEAKER_04

How in the world do you accept them, right? I remember talking to Michelle, and uh and some professionals would say, well, you know, the expectations have to be you know depressingly low, right? Right, and I'm gonna do this a bunch of nevers, never, never, never, never, never. And I don't think, by the way, any of those nevers turns out.

SPEAKER_02

No, no, and and what we did, um, we started hot at the highest level possible, and we worked our way back. It's like, let's shoot for this. Okay, that didn't work, let's take it down a notch. Now that's our new goal. Okay, well, this part of it works here, but this part doesn't. So now we know which area we need to work on. Um, but I I always say shoot high, and then you can always roll it back to where it there's a happy medium and meeting of the minds.

SPEAKER_04

Um would you say that the risk of setting expectations too low is as bad as as big a risk as setting them too high?

SPEAKER_02

Or when you set them too low, it's it's kind of like controlling classroom behavior. If you if you don't control the classroom behavior from the from day one and everything's just wild, you can't rein those those kids back in. You can't pull on the reins and get them back under control. But like I I know I use worse analogy a lot. But if you drain them, if you if you have tight reins on them, it's easier to let the reins out than it is to tighten them up again. So no, I I've I firmly believe that if you if you have such low expectations, then that's all the student or the person's going to want to attain to, and that's all they think they can attain to. Whereas when you say, I'm going to set it up here and we're going to try this, and then they then they do it. They're like, Wow, I can do that. It's like, yeah. And sometimes the parents are just as surprised as the student is. No, that's the best thing is seeing that. When when the when the you know, I tell the parents, it's like, yeah, they're doing this, they're doing this, they're doing that. They really, I didn't think they'd ever be able to do that. I said, Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's the truth. Yeah, it is. That's so fun. I think there's a comfort level of them being good and doing what they're doing that you don't push them.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_04

Well, I mean, I think all parents, particularly modern parents, uh I know I did, try to shelter their kids and try to, you know, try to keep them from having uh, you know, things be difficult or or whatever. Um, Michelle and I's parents didn't mind making things difficult.

SPEAKER_01

They expected a lot. Oh yeah. But I think it's just fine, which you know, they push every single one of us.

SPEAKER_02

And yeah, well, and that's that's when we have the IEP meetings. Um, when we tell the parents, hey, you know, this is stuff they could be doing at home. Are they doing this at home? Well, no, it's just easier for me to do it. Right. It's like right, no, because you're not always going to be there. You want to give them as much independence as you possibly can. And that's the way to look at it is you know, what what's gonna happen if you're not there one day in time to make dinner? Are they gonna sit there and starve and and and not eat anything until you get home? Or are they gonna raid the fridge and and you know just load up on junk while you're gone? You know, but you know, it it's it's looking at how what skills would you want your your child without any learning disabilities to have? What skills, you know, why should skills be for this one be any different than that one, other than of course, if there's just such a huge difference as far as physical ability and um mental capacity, but that's that's a separate uh category, really. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01

And they can't dial DoorDash. No. I'm glad Gregory was doing it.

SPEAKER_02

Well, that that was the other thing that we ended up teaching kids because the parents had asked for it, is um I I got in a checkbook program uh curriculum, and the kids actually had checkbook registers, little fake checks, they have their um their uh their balance sheets, and they came with the curriculum of okay, you make this much money now. Oh, here's this activity. Uh, you have to spend $350 for rent and you got to write a check for it. And parents were like, man, that well, this was back when people still use checks. Now everybody uses a debit card, you know. And so so I told the parents it's a perfect time to teach them. They need to be looking at when you sit down to pay your bills, let them sit next to you and see what you have to go through to pay the bills just to keep a roof over their head and stump and their tummies fall. And they go, Oh, I never thought about that. It's like, yeah, and then um that way it doesn't come as a surprise. They they think, you know, bank of mommy and daddy are you know, there's a there's a money tree out back, you know. If I if I spend everything in my on my debit card, well, there's plenty more. But giving them that financial responsibility and and that financial sense is also important, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Like this life skills period. Yeah, yes. On the flip side of my question, have you seen repetitive parental behavior that you're like, oh, if people just knew that like it would be better if they didn't do that sort of thing?

SPEAKER_02

When uh when parents already have a preconceived notion of uh I'll never forget, I had one student where the parent was absolutely adamant, they're so low, they're so low. They would never do that. They would never do that. And I would sit there and tell them, I'm telling you right now, they are doing that, and they can do that, and they have been doing that. Oh no, oh no, and just trying to get them to buy into it.

SPEAKER_04

What's an example of a skill that that was available and and perceived to be unavailable, like you just described?

SPEAKER_02

Using the internet.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, really? Like Googling up something, whatever.

SPEAKER_02

Using a laptop, and I mean that and this was in the early days of we had you know Chromebooks. Um, but everybody had a home computer. We didn't really use computers um that much in the in the classroom back then. But uh I had our our computer um techno guy from school uh come in and give a lecture and give lessons to my students on their Chromebooks about computer safety because a lot of these kids will trust anybody because they well, that's my friend. I play video games with him. What's his name? Uh number one five five. I said, no, what's his name? Oh, I don't know. We just play computer, but that's the that's their friend, and that and that I said, and that's where you had to come in and and educate them. Look, a friend of someone that you know their name, they know your name. You know, you know, you see them in person every now and then as your time, you know, frees you up to do it. Um, or you talk on the phone, or you know, you text or whatever, that you know that person because you have actually met them.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's a very, very tough conversation. A lot of kids that play video games at that level think that 160 people that are playing are their their friends. Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

We talked about Sharon. So would you would you agree? We had we talked about it in a couple of episodes ago that that kind of it's kind of it's kind of would be refreshing if you just trusted everyone, even though you can't. But it feels it feels like there's something with autism and optimism that's that's that's connected. Did you find that fairly consistent?

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah, yeah, because they they they I don't want to say they, but students with autism, um they have this this innate trust and um naivety as far as what can go wrong out there in the world, and you don't want to be the one to burst their bubble, but you also don't want to let them go out there susceptible and be taken advantage of. Um so it it it's you know that's when you're walking a fine line because you don't want to scare them, but you also don't want them so naive that that they put themselves in danger.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, you have to you have to sort of be there, be the lookout because they're expecting everyone to behave honorably.

SPEAKER_02

Right, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_04

That's kind of interesting, right? It's kind of interesting that the that autism kind of lands on the positive side of the world, right? Like they give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, there's hardly any negativity, right?

SPEAKER_04

Dishonesty, negativity, line, that kind of thing is is foreign to them. We need more autism in society, not less.

SPEAKER_01

I caught Gregory watching um snap. Do you know what snapped is, Sean? It's the women that they snap and they kill their husband or their boyfriend. And I walked in the room, I'm like, buddy, I really don't think you need to be watching this. And he goes, Yes, I do. I need to know the women to stay away from. And I was just like, Okay, maybe he getting it.

SPEAKER_04

Maybe it's he there, it was Easter.

SPEAKER_01

I said, Oh all of them. He was, I guess, in his mind, okay. Well, that one's a crazy one.

SPEAKER_03

I said, This is what they look like.

SPEAKER_01

I was mortified. I was like, oh my gosh, because that's a horrible show.

SPEAKER_03

That is so funny.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe he's learning something. Stay away from all of them.

SPEAKER_02

And get getting back to independent living skills. That's that's something you know, like every every teenager, every young adult knows. I used to tell my kids the story of, yeah, I was away at college, and you'd be surprised how many um college guys are walking around campus with pink shirts and pink socks because they put their whites in with the colors and they started laughing because they go, You're kidding me. I said, No, and that wasn't when pink was cool either.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

So um, I know, Michelle, I know you talked about uh about schedules and stuff. What I what I found with some of my students was making a vet a visual schedule uh for their day that they followed, and they had um pictures with velcro on the back that they could move as they needed. Another thing was making a visual with pictures, step-by-step laundry instructions, and we just taped that up right by the uh washer and dryers um so that they they could see exactly how to do laundry. Um but yeah, um with with uh with with students like that, it whatever you find works, you you take it and you use it, whether it's pictures, picture boards. Uh I know now they have uh Dyno Box boxes that you know, even if you're non-verbal, I was thinking about this when I saw your podcast um this week of um you know, now they they have the like little mini computers that you take and they have the pictures and you point to it and it speaks for them.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So uh technology has done a lot of good for for uh for students and and for young people. Um but still the the parents really um it helps if if they're up on it or if they're open to at least asking about it. Uh on occasion, not not often, but on a rare occasion, there are some parents that just think, nope, nope, they're I mean, they're still in denial. And um and and must help it.

SPEAKER_04

Definitely. It must be, I mean, obviously, it's the situation is so difficult, right? But it must be really hard for teachers and for the the people that are there to help to try to get everybody. I mean, you've you've had so much experience, and then the parent probably walks in as their first experience, right? And it's it's probably hard for them to trust people, it's hard for them to understand who to believe who not to believe. And I think one of the things I wanted to get into at some point, Michelle, is is understanding the incentives in these school systems so that a parent can walk in and say, Okay, well, uh, if I'm being steered this way or this way, why is that, right? Is it is it some lack of resources, or is it is it they that adding this student to their school is not something that the school wants to do and and help an emergency.

SPEAKER_01

That's what I ran into. And it wasn't convenient. A couple of the elementary schools just wanted them all in one room. It was easier that way. They didn't have to go out and hire a pair, they didn't have to figure out a schedule. That it's just easy, and that's where we really butted heads.

SPEAKER_04

It was it was that permitted still out of is this? I mean, how how much how does the regulation work? Does the federal government tell people like what these education strategies need to be, or is it at the state level, or is it at every school district has their own approach?

SPEAKER_02

It it's kind of a tiered system. The Fed set the the requirements of this is this is the mandate, um, and then leaves it up to the states to decide how they're going to implement those mandates mandates, and then the state then takes it down to the districts, and the district then figures out how they're gonna implement those mandates. So it goes through several tiers of of interpretation.

SPEAKER_04

With your experience, would you think that that all of that waterfall ends up with a pretty different strategy by school district, or are they all pretty similar?

SPEAKER_02

By school by school.

SPEAKER_04

By school. Does the parent have the choice to shop around these days in in Colorado?

SPEAKER_01

I did. Yeah, yes. They shared could I have gone to a different school district being in Jeff CO, or I had to go to Jeff CO?

SPEAKER_02

I mean Jeff Code would have to Yeah, they would have to agree to accept you for living outside of district, but they have what in in Jeffco, what they have is open enrollment, and open enrollment means you can petition to or put in a request to attend any school that you want, and you can go and shop around to different schools and check them all out. We had we had many students, families that did that. Um, and as I like to say, our program was the best release.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, you lost. I shop three schools, you were my wing school.

SPEAKER_04

Well, that's what they're trying to move to. I as I understand that in Texas, they're trying to move to a full voucher system so that every parent can shop around, and you're not stuck going to school where your house is if that school isn't performing for your child.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Well, that it works also for general ed students in Colorado. General ed students can go to any school and open enroll in any school in their district. You don't have to go to the neighborhood school. I open enrolled my kids um in the school that was across the highway from our neighborhood school because I like their curriculum better. Um, so it's not just kids that have IEP.

SPEAKER_04

So, what runs through my mind is that the parent of a child with special needs has to say, okay, I have to be more involved. I've got to be a, I should say, a point on the triangle. I have to make sure that I've got the right school for my child. I've got to understand this individual program, I've got to monitor the process, I have to understand the specific goals for this chunk of time so that they're ready for the next chunk of time. And and I have to do at home uh what they're doing at school so the child has consistent things. And I keep thinking, man, every child would benefit from the same level of parental involvement. And when I quit my job, Sean, and I worked for the school, I had to be on the thing, is like how many parents we talked about this, how many parents can afford to do this?

SPEAKER_02

It's a huge financial burden of the and that's where when the parent and the case manager, and the case manager is the special ed teacher that is responsible for making sure um anything spelled out in that IEP is implemented and followed through on. Um, that's where a good relationship with your case manager is critical. Um, because I know I'm still in touch with some parents that I was their case manager back when I first started teaching. Um, and they still call me and ask me for advice, and and you know, we'll get together, you know, when they're in town, or you know, I'm or we're anywhere near each other. Um, but it it's important to try and develop that relationship because ultimately the parents are going to benefit and the student is going to benefit from it.

SPEAKER_04

I know of course, of course. Well, God bless you for doing what you did. That's amazing. You you made a real difference in your career. Not everyone gets to say that. So good for this. And and thank you. I know this isn't a job that people get rich doing, so there are real sacrifices on your part, too. But what an amazing contribution. Right.

SPEAKER_02

But it it was, I I I loved it. And the one thing when I retired, um, I told my school principal, because they always do an exit interview. I said, I just wish that we could get back to basics, more or less, because by the time I retired, it was more about, especially after coming through COVID, it was more about documenting time and minutes, documenting this, documenting that, documenting everything. And it's like, you I always I always believed that when I had a good relationship with the family, the family trusted me to do what was best for their student. And I and I had that level of trust also back with them that they they knew that I wasn't gonna do anything that would be detrimental or anything that was not in that child's best interest. And it was like, I'm gonna treat your student just like they were my own kid. Um, and uh so when it turned into more of uh paperwork than actually being able to interact and and give a lot of individual time uh to students, um, it kind of it lost my the appeal for me. And so that's when I decided to retire.

SPEAKER_04

Wow, yeah, became a is that some sort of compliance, is there some monetary trail that causes all that level of documentation?

SPEAKER_02

It's um it's it's more of uh we want to make sure every I is dotted and every T is crossed so we don't get in trouble.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, it's it's all about, yeah, Sean. It's all about how we're living now, how you're living at work now.

SPEAKER_04

It's about liability.

SPEAKER_01

Can't do this and you can't do that. Yep, because somebody might, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, it's the flatitious nature of school system.

SPEAKER_01

I really wasn't good in the school system. I was a little too opinionated.

SPEAKER_04

We always kept the bell bonds and on short call for Michelle.

SPEAKER_01

It's so hard because you're always Michelle.

SPEAKER_02

Michelle was always great. Michelle was always great, and even though uh I didn't have I didn't have to, um I didn't have to, I didn't get to work with Michelle as much as some of the other students or other teachers. Um, but you can see how we get along now.

SPEAKER_03

It's exactly that was a thought.

SPEAKER_04

I don't have to deal with it because you put it in my class all the time, but boy, they are you know what's you kind of well, the whole point, I think not not that we can summarize all Michelle's advice up at one point, but I think that you gotta have a little Karen in you if you have a kid with special needs. It sounds like oh yeah, yeah, and what's amazing, like I'm I mean, to to put the glass half full is that even though that like schools are rigid and it's government controlled and the quality of bearings, but this someone thought of putting all these rules in place and these resources so that these kids are getting a better level of service than what they would have gotten. So it's like the intent is there, and I'm sure every school executes differently. Um, but like like all things is that the squeaky wheel is going to get more grease, I guess.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And and there are educational advocates out there that if you find that that your voice just is not being heard, and um because there are some people in education that just figure, you know, I know more than you, so just sit down and listen to what I have to say. If you feel like you're not being listened to, you can consult with an educational professional, an education advocate, uh, and they they are experts in the world of uh special education.

SPEAKER_04

Is that is that French for lawyer that scares the hell out of the school?

SPEAKER_02

No, it's free. No, no, no, it's free, it's free, and they are just normal, everyday people that have an extensive background and understanding of uh IEPs and education law and um uh is that free too, or free in Colorado and free in Texas?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's what I was telling you, Sean, when I went to the IEP meetings, that it's really good to bring somebody with you that because I mean you know, your first one, you're just dumbfounded.

SPEAKER_04

You got 12 educational advocate is available to you as a resource paid for by the government.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Well, that's a fact when I didn't know that's keep you off the floor and keep your thumb out of your mouth, and you're just and it helps because especially when when you're just starting out, yeah, it's so emotional. Special education has as many i uh as many acronyms as the government does. So you start throwing you know acronyms out, and and it just it's overwhelming.

SPEAKER_04

And if you get your own basically advisor, that's free, that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02

And it doesn't have to be an educational advocate. You can have, let's say you have a friend that is a special teacher at a different school. You can have that friend come with you now to kind of walk you through it and explain what's going on, and because you, as the parent, can have anybody you want at that IEP meeting.

SPEAKER_04

That is so cool, yeah. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01

But you gotta know about it. That's the thing.

SPEAKER_04

Well, that's the one program heroes. Is like we've got we've been all of a sudden there's these there's these things that you forget you know that's unique, so we're gonna get it all documented. Yes, that's amazing. Well, thank you, Sarah. It's been great to meet you, and and once again, thank you for everything you've done.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you very much, Sharon. Good to see you. Good seeing you again. We'll see you in Florida, I'm sure. Oh, we batter. Bye. Okay, Sean. Bye.

SPEAKER_04

Bye bye.